The reality is you don't give a shit about animals, humans or anything but your twisted inferior selves.
You make a joke of proper environmentalists and animal rights and I wish you would all fuck off back to whatecer sewer you crawled in form....

Goodness knows what the above commenter is actually going on about, but I think your decision is excellent and definitely the best one to make. It's time all our movements realised the whole picture in terms of how our choices (food, clothes, etc) are affecting everything else. I always find it a shame when environmental activists are adamantly against (or failing to see) the effects a meat and dairy-based diet actually has on the planet.

its a fact......your reality.....vegan fascism really is rampant throughout the so called libertarian/ecological movement. a fine example me thinks

"Hens eggs are not designed for human health"

Well unless you believe in literal creationism no plant or animal was "designed" to be eaten by us. In fact, they have evolved to try and avoid being eaten.

Humans are naturally omnivorous and for 99.99% of our evolutionary existance humans and hominids would have eagerly gathered and eaten birds' eggs as a prized food item, so to talk about them being "not designed for human health" is silly.

Assume that you have slugs, say. How can you live with them, give them a bit of food and they will reproduce and eat ALL your veg.
1/ SPRAY, whether Chemicals (eeurgh!) or neem, or garlic in soap, your goal is to KILL.
2/ Pick them off manually, then what? squash them, or transplant to a weed patch to decimate the poor weeds.
3/ Eat them? dunno, Some snails are OK tho! Still killing.
4/ Bring chickens in, let the chickens massacre the slugs.
5/ Copper strips to poison them, beer traps to drown them, Diatomaceous earth to shred them...

You have animal pests, animals have a role in the ecosystem, like it or not most ecosystems can't function without animal inputs

What fertiliser will you put in your garden? Dead animal? Agri (petro) chemical? Plant Mulch? Animal Manure? Human manure? Where will the plant mulch come from? Straw bales from an agricultural system involving animals?

Where is your garden, out of curiosity?

One book I very much recommend is  http://permaculturemedia.blogspot.com/2010/01/vegetarian-myth-food-justice-and.html, an eye opening read!

"I always find it a shame when environmental activists are adamantly against (or failing to see) the effects a meat and dairy-based diet actually has on the planet."

The problem is that "environmentalism" and "animal rights" have different bases and foci.

However relevant the current extent of "factory farming" and excessive consumption of animal products is destructive to the environment may be to our environmental problems you simply cannot get from there to a case for vegetarianism. For vegans it is "morally wrong" to consume aninals and animal products regardless of the environment. It would not be OK just because our human numbers were such that "in balance". They seek to be something something "higher" or "better" than an animal.

On the other hand, most environmentalists want us to return to balance with the rest of the natural world. They don't think that there is something "higher" or "better". They recognize that we humans ARE "one of the animals" and just need to reutrn to a state of balance with the rest of the community.

Means that we environmentalists and animal rights folks are sometimes on the same side of an issue and sometimes on opposite sides. How we manage that is just one of our problems.

We became scavengers in the ice age. Our bodies can handle small amounts of animal products, but that doesn't mean that it's natural to farm and breed animals for food for us and for most of the crops we grow to go towards feeding those animals. If someone has a rescued hen that lays eggs and they want to eat them, while I personally wouldn't and might instead give them to someone else I know who won't stop eating eggs so they would at least not be supporting the egg industry... while also explaining why I wouldn't usually advocate eating eggs.

If this garden is about sustainability, then it's the right idea not to bring chickens into it.

The event is still listed on BLCG's website:
 http://www.barrackslanegarden.org.uk/events.php

Also, the post doesn't read to me like something BLCG folks would've written.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks to me like a hoax by someone offended by the original event?

...although sometimes it does seem a little bit like laughing at the nutters on Britain's Got (no) Talent.

That modern day Industrial Agriculture is wrecking the planet, and must be S M A S H E D!

"If this garden is about sustainability, then it's the right idea not to bring chickens into it."

What a strange comment. As was mentioned in an earlier post what are you going to use as fertilizer if not animal manure? How the heck are vegan alternatives sustainable. They are by and large made up of mined materials (and hence dependent upon oil - and thus not sustainable). Any local non-oil based and sustainable garden will need to incorporate animal products.

You have to feed the soil and the use of animal products is a necessity if this is to be done sustainably and the top soil is not to be further eroded.

Just check out any eco system and see how it functions. It is based upon a life and death cycle.
What vegans seem to not understand is that there is death involved in every meal. Just because that death isn't directly on your place does not mean that many animals have not died in the process of producing that meal. Veganism is a cop-out which enables those to take a moral high ground without having to look at deeper issues.

All these posts about how you can't grow veg without animal products are very bizarre; my grandad isn't vegan (or even veggie), but he knows loads of ways of fertalising his plants and keeping slugs at bay etc... Anyone who had even a passing interest in gardening surely must have heard of composting?! Nettles and some seaweed can be used very affectively as fertaliser.

Teabags, copper and even course rope (amongst many other things) repel slugs, and/or other plants can be used which they are more attracted to than your veg.

Steve don't be such an ignorant cunt.

Hey Vegan Anarchist, you make a comment like that and call me ignorant? What a joke.

Such a reaction is typical of some internet discussions where name calling takes centre stage. Strong words are easy to use when you are sat behind a computer eh? Also, I am sure there are plenty of people out there who really appreciate your choice to use the word 'cunt'. Real nice!

The point is that a discussion is needed concerning if vegan agriculture is a sustainable option. Obviously I don't think so (certainly when applied to differing environments and conditions for growing worldwide).

Of course I agree with Digger with regards to what is mentioned as options for fertilizers. However the truth is that with many soil types animal products (or oil based products) will be needed in order to keep the soil healthy. (This of course does not take into account the many areas of the world in which growing crops is not an option.) Soil is alive and needs to be fed to be kept healthy.

Some vegans simply opt out of looking at the bigger picture of destruction - the industrial system that we live in. The most obvious example being soy milk and many vegan clothes and footwear products which are dependent upon the industrial system and hence death and destruction on a far wider scale than say someone eating local free range eggs.I certainly hope that there are no vegans out there eating grains produced by our current food system (how many animals do you reckon are killed during harvesting?)

Of course pathetic name calling is an easy way not to look at this issue. Or the point made concerning that death is involved in all food. In a veggie garden where do the pests such as the slugs go? Or are slugs not cuddly enough to be considered saving? Put simply, the growing of grains consists in completely clearing a piece of land in order to grow crops. Where is the space for animals in this system?

Branching out a bit here...veganism looks like a very western and civilised concept when applied worldwide (not sure is all vegans agree that it should be or not?). This is beyond arrogance if one is preaching to peoples who have been living sustainably within eco systems for countless generations without damaging their surroundings. Surely an examination of primitive/ hunter-gather groups demonstrates that eating animal products is not the key issue to sustainability. Veganism is the product of a largely urban western society whose foundations are built upon the displacement of peoples who are actually living sustainably.

Sadly death for food is unavoidable. Once this is recognised that a decent discussion can be held concerning how to live sustainably with nature causing as little damage as possible. People go vegan for the right reasons (moral sentiments that I of course agree with) but then sometimes fail to keep looking deeper at issues.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan_organic_gardening

although it is obvious that animals will die as a result of any diet it's your ignorance that blinds you to the issue of veganism. I grow my own fruit and veg and have done for the last three seasons without the use of animal products of any kind to fertilize the soil. The land has not been used for the last 25 years.

I'm no longer a vegan, I class myself as a strict vegetarian because I eat eggs from a free range flock of rescued ex battery hens I gave a home to. My plot of land will sustain up to 10 people. I would suggest that my lifestyle is of a more sustainable level than yours. Yes I have a computer (so do you) but I do not plug it into the grid (I suspect you do) and yes I do have a car ( I suspect you do also) yet I run it on chip fat oil supplies by a family member who owns a few chippies. I also use recycled products (where possible) when servicing said car. I also use it as minimal as possible.

I don't use gas or electric from the grid. The house heating system is run from multi stoves that I burn wood on logged by hand from fallen trees I clear for some local farmers who I help with their fencing as payment.

All in all I would say that my footprint in low and in comparison to most..? No it's not perfect and animals will die and suffer as part of my lifestyle, nothing is perfect, but I strive to reach as near perfection as I can, what about you?

I suppose you will come back with some crass comment about clothing etc At the end of the day a vegan diet can be a sustainable option with little impact on the planet.

What is an issue is the people who claim to be vegan that go around pointing their finger at others.

Hey Quality,

Thanks for the links.
I dunno why you suspect that i would come back with some crass comment? I am simply trying to get a debate going about sustainability. I think that your lifestyle sounds fantastic and should be applauded.

When i was vegan i was unable to meet my full diet needs with just fruit and veg. I see that you use eggs in your diet which would of course add much needed nutrients (protein and choline). The chickens are free range and of course local and sustainable. This is what i am trying to say. Many vegans would vilify you for eating eggs, which is what i am saying is wrong. It is the supplementing of diets with meat alternatives, soy, vitamins that is the problem.

It is cool that your soil is productive without animal products. Sadly not all is. My garden certainly wouldn't be as fruitful without manure. Along with green manures and compost my i have found that most organic gardens (vegan) tend to use minerals as fertilizer. Dunno if you add a vegan fertilizer. Once these minerals are added then it is obviously not sustainable.

You comment that no diet is perfect (of course) and that of course animals will die. This is sort of the point that i was trying to make (obviously not very well) that veganism can be too narrow and does not see that animals die as a result of our food choices and other lifestyle options. This cannot be avoided. To simply say being vegan is good and non-vegan is bad is not always correct. For instance i have never come across vegan protests against crop harvesting (mechanical) which of course kills massive amounts of animals. Where are the protests against commercial soy milk? A heavily processed food hence based on large uses of oil and therefore environmental damage. Veganism and sustainabilty are not necessarily the same thing and a vegan diet does not mean that animals have not been killed. Things are not black and white which i guess is all i was trying to put across.
Cheers,
Steve

Hi Steve, Quality and all other contributors:

I've observed this interesting discussion for a while; I got a bit concerned at the name-calling, but I think most are trying to point towards a more sustainable lifestyle. If I can just make a few points:

I became vegan several years ago (a) when I realised how much pain and suffering I was causing animals as a vegetarian (ie stereotypical oatmeal sandal reason), (b) because I wanted to feel better physically and (c) I found out what damage industrial animal farming does to the planet.

I'm not given to ranting about how wonderful my lifestyle is, or how much better it is than anybody else's; if people ask why I live the way I do, then I will explain. I don't like having someone else's view shoved down my throat, literally or metaphorically. But I am interested in what people think, and I'm prepared to change my mind. Everyone has a choice, and I believe that we are all better positioned to make that choice with as much information as possible.

I was a confirmed carnivore for 25 years, but found that my physical well-being improved dramatically first when I became vegetarian and then 20 years later when I went vegan. And I now have the added smug self-satisfaction of knowing that the only way I personally can make a difference to global warming in my lifetime is by being vegan for 8+ years.

Veganism is more than just a western cultural thing; most of the world eat vegan pretty much most of the time. And being vegan is fundamentally about not exploiting other animals - but it's not a religion, simply a choice. Just because we can eat animals doesn't mean that we must. And if the number of animals killed was only from cereal harvesting, and not the billions of others from industrial farming, I could live with that, and work on getting everyone to the next level of non-killing.

There's a myth about protein sources; where do animals get their protein from? Plants. So why not cut out the middle man (animal)? We don't need to eat animals or anything made from animals to live - so why bother? Eating animals is unsustainable given the rapidly growing global population.

And it's all relative; I'd rather drink soy than suffer the consequences, which I did for a long time, of consuming dairy and related products. The vast majority of soya that is grown is fed to animals, and that is what is responsible for the rainforest disappearing in South America. 80% of UK animal feed is gm soya shipped from ex-rainforest. If you want to do something really whacky about reducing your carbon footprint try dropping rice from your diet; rice contributes 8% to global warming - that's twice the contribution that air transport makes - so try UK barley instead.

And the chickens - well, if someone wants to give them a better life than they've had that's great; remember though that just under 50% of all chickens are killed just after birth (only hens produce eggs, after all); I don't believe that perpetuating this industry in any way is good - wherever you get them from will view you as a cheaper way of disposing of non-profitable animals than killing them some other way. And would you do this for chickens even if they didn't produce eggs? (no way implying a value judgement, just 'food for thought' - would people keep bees if they didn't produce honey?) And I'm not about to try and stop anyone eating eggs; but bear in mind that eggs provide cholesterol that we don't need, protein that we have far too much of in the west, and excess sulphur that acidifies the body and leads to a whole host of stuff we can do without. And yep, I know they taste nice.

There's lots of evidence that eating animals harms us, the planet and of course the animals themselves. If people want to do that, fine, but do it knowing the consequences.

ok, time to get down from the soapbox...

"And the chickens - well, if someone wants to give them a better life than they've had that's great; remember though that just under 50% of all chickens are killed just after birth (only hens produce eggs, after all); I don't believe that perpetuating this industry in any way is good - wherever you get them from will view you as a cheaper way of disposing of non-profitable animals than killing them some other way. And would you do this for chickens even if they didn't produce eggs? (no way implying a value judgement, just 'food for thought' - would people keep bees if they didn't produce honey?) And I'm not about to try and stop anyone eating eggs; but bear in mind that eggs provide cholesterol that we don't need, protein that we have far too much of in the west, and excess sulphur that acidifies the body and leads to a whole host of stuff we can do without. And yep, I know they taste nice. "

The industry is very much established and taking on 10,000 hens out of many hundreds of thousands is not going to make a farmer rethink a cheaper way out. The fact is that it takes up time for the operation to take place.BHWT take thousands of hens out of farm conditions to rehome them, better than the alternative hey? I personally don't care if they lay eggs or not, the reason I homed them is to give them a better life. I see no problem eating eggs from these hens, most are used to make compost. As a vegan I didn't agree with the suffering due to my diet and lifestyle but I see no suffering in the large flock we have. The hens have gone from hear death to large healthy hens running freerange.

You begin to loose your argument when trying to say that one diet is healthier than the other. All diets, if balanced, are healthy.

Steve. The point I made was that your claim that a vegan diet is unsustainable is false. It,s the method. You could farm animals for food in a sustainable way but I would argue it's not the moral choice.