Beating the fascists book!

'Authorised'?

25.05.2010 23:09

By who exactly?

Unconsulted AFA Old Boy

It's always interesting to read the reminiscences of antifascists and it's good to see more written about AFA. As for this book being 'authorised' however, how can it be when AFA haven't existed for some years now? There was one group who always seemed to think they had exclusive rights to the AFA label - Red Action - But why would an anarchist publishers put out an account by a group reknowned for not exactly being anarcho friendly? Whoever did write this book should put their name to it or use a pseudonym, not hide behind the cover of bogus authorisation and pretend to speak on behalf of an entire osganisation, whose politics were often quite diverse.

J.B.

A Marxist view of history

26.05.2010 09:32

I was told about this book a couple of weks ago by a reliable comrade, who like myself was formerly in AFA, and also like myself is still active as an antifascist. As I understood it this book is Red Action's version of the AFA years, and largely written by Gary O'Shea. It was rejected by AK Press, who O'Shea approached previously. As far as I'm aware none of the current Freedom lot were involved in AFA, and I was led to believe that they were currently in a 'consultation phase' before deciding whether or not to publish this book. They seem to have now decided to skip that. Let's be clear, this is O'Shea's and Red Action's account of the AFA years, and in no way can it be said to be "authorised" - That's just a typical example of O'Shea's arrogance. Red Action may have ruled the roost in London, but in most other parts of the country, particularly in the north, the vast majority of AFA activists were anarchists.

When AFA first started up, it was in fact quite a liberal organisation, in which for example Labour Party activists played quite a big role. It was only later that it became the militant organisation that was so effective in combatting fascism. Arguably it could have been much more effective if Red Action had stuck to working in common with others, and refrained from their constant manouvering and back-stabbing, and eventually destroying AFA - an organisation needed as much today as it was in the past.

O'Shea in particular detested anarchists, and was involved in a huge amount of sectarianism culminating in a number of groups in the north and midlands leaving the national organisation. Any account by O'Shea and Red Action is bound to be extremely contentious and possibly divisive. Why on earth Freedom are publishing this book, particularly with that ridiculous title, is a mystery. Personally, I see this a a huge slap in the face to the huge numbers of anarchist antifascists who made up the majority of AFA activists, some of whom are bound to feel betrayed by Freedom's decision to help propogate O'Shea's memoirs and line his pockets, Would they publish Trotsky's memoirs on Kronstadt? I don't think they would, so why are they publishing this?

Old AFA

there is of course a sweet, sweet irony -

26.05.2010 11:36

red action needed the anarchists to make afa successful, and they're still needing the anarchists...

Never been in a riot

missing chapter ?

26.05.2010 14:14

Just wondering if there's chaper on how many people Manchester AFA member Dessie Noonan managed to kill before his sad demise....last count it was around 27....I bet his stirling work in countering the NF/BNP is mentioned but I doubt there's a mention of The gallant AFA gangsters' other work in protection rackets,gun running ,murder and drugs.....Is there going to be a sequel ,maybe Dessie Noonans cousin Dennis of London Red Action fame can fill us in on the missing bits , you know theres nowt like a bit of family gossip to spice up a nice book....What next for Freedom publishing....../ The Krays twins are always looking fo rnew outlets.....Authorised History of AFA my arse

Salford Dismissive

Beating the fascists

26.05.2010 16:41

Unfortunately we didn't did we? We might have given the fash some fucking good kickings, but they are still alive and well. Arguably, part of the reason for that is that O'Shea and co umdemocratically and prematurely wound up AFA to concentrate on electoral politics. They have been slagging off those still commited to militant antifascism ever since. It may be unpalatable to hear, but Nick Griffin has proved to have more stamina than Gary O'Shea. It is sickening to see Freedom promoting this inveterate Anarchist hater. Be sure to wear your best shit-eating grins and stab-proof vests for the launch party.

Bramley Red

Many thanks

26.05.2010 20:28

to you all for your free publicity, and for talking about the book on other site and to other people etc.
You will be glad to hear that pre sales are really good!
Due to the overwhelming interest in the book we have had to suspend the discount pre-order reservations. Those who have already emailed in will still receive their book at the special £10.00. Pricing details will be made available soon.

AFA Old Boy

Any old afa

26.05.2010 21:30

Sounds like you're going to do nicely out of the mugs of the anarchist movement again Gary. How about sharing a bit of it with your lads so they pay in to antifascist benefit gigs inrtead of pushing their way in. The next time you're picking up your loot from Freedom bookshop have a look at that plaque next to the door bearing the name of our dead comrade Anthony Frey. Ant was a lovely bloke and a dedicated antifascist. He was also on the door the night the dregs of Red Action turned up to try and cause a fight at an Antifa benefit gig.

Antifascist

fao afa old boy

26.05.2010 21:58

I presume your the author ? you've got a lot of skeletons in your cupboard mate ,wouldn't want any of them getting out would you Gary old mate , They've come along way with DNA evidence in 'cold cases '' theres plenty of people being banged up for stuff they thought had been covered up in the past ,you're heavy mates havn't quite got the influence now that they used to have old bhoy ....don't forget your toothbrush you vile pervert

ghost of cable street

Dodgy anarchists too

26.05.2010 23:49

It has too be said that there was the odd dodgy anarchist involved too mind. A couple of the worst were pretty close to RA for some reason. Old hands will remember Malcolm from Doncaster DAM, ex fash, a grass, n dodgy as fuck in every way. Then there was that Isy from 1 of the London DAM branches - she'd been a grass in a big ALF trial. There was also a big stink about a huntsab lad who Garry O'Shea said was a grass after he supported rape allegations against O'Shea

ALS0 AFA

Personal Attacks Not Political Debate

27.05.2010 00:21

The clamour to prejudge a book that no-one here apart from the publishers, the authors and their closest confidantes have actually read is simply astonishing.

We've moved from browbeating Freedom Press into taking a politically sectarian stand against a perceived 'red enemy' to making serious allegations of rape and murder against named individuals.

What price liberty huh?

Bigger cages, longer chains... we're making them for ourselves by creating a hullaballoo over words on the pages of a book.

Perhaps we should organise a mass book burning when it finally hits the shops?

Personally, I'd prefer to read it first.

Centrally Located

To be fair...

27.05.2010 05:59

I think it's fair to judge that the title of this book is inaccurate and misleading. Also to draw certain conclusions, such as extreme arrogance, from the author's choice of such a title. For those who know the author, such an attitude hardly comes as a surprise. Dessie Noonan's track record is hardly a secret, indeed his brother Domenyk continues to exploit it, on film and elsewhere. The allegations against Mr O'Shea are also far from new. Isy from DAM I imagine is Isobel Facer, whose history as a grass is documented in Keith Mann's book on the ALF. I also imagine that the book is potentially a far bigger can of worms than this thread, and that it contains its own allegations and omissions.

Comment

point 2 of freedom post above

27.05.2010 06:29

Any 'original' Class Warriors dropped out of AFA YEARS before AFA wound up (who can blame them?) and when some of the worse shit happened. And I don't know anyone still in Solfed who was active back then. So so much for your so-called consultation freedom

NAT

calm down CL!

27.05.2010 08:55

Nobody's on about burning this book but wtf should @ money pay for a red version of shared histery - since when were red action fair or objective. That title alone says theyve not changed fuck all arogant cunts.

auntie fash

To The Freddom Collective

27.05.2010 09:22

Dear Freedom Collective,

First of all, I should say that I thoroughly resent being drawn into this debate in the way that I have i.e. I took what I was told about this book at face value, passed it on as requested, and am now being made to look both a liar and a fool. I think I know every member of the current collective, and a number of you are long-standing personal friends and comrades. Some of you certainly know that I have been involved in militant antifascism since the mid 1970’s, having been involved with AFA and No Platform, and still with Antifa England today (as well as with other antifascist groups.) I’m not sure when your supposed ‘period of consultation’ began, but I was certainly not consulted and only learned that Gary O’Shea’s book was under consideration entirely by chance on the 7th May. What I was told then was that the book had been submitted and was under consideration. I do not recall hearing that any former AFA members had been consulted at that time, certainly not outside London (I know one former London AFA member who is currently halfway through reading the book.) I immediately said that the content of the book was very likely to be extremely contentious, particularly in the north of England, and I suggested a number of people already known to members of the Collective whose opinions you might want to seek. I had understood that if there were strong objections from within the movement that the book would not be published by Freedom, and that it was unlikely to be published with the title proposed. Over the course of the next few days O’Shea’s book was the subject of discussion on several occasions between myself and 3 members of the Freedom Collective, and on every occasion I consistently raised issues which I thought might cause problems and opined that Freedom should pass on publishing it.

When I spoke to other antifascists about the prospect of the book being published by Freedom there were strong objections as I had expected, particularly bearing in mind the proposed title of the book. I assured them that the book was by no means a ‘done deal’ as far as Freedom were concerned, and that the opinions of veteran Anarchist antifascists were actively being sought. So it was with considerable surprise that a few days ago, on the 23rd May, I learned that you were seeking advance orders for the book and that a publication date had already been set. When told this, I did not believe it at first, since it completely contradicted what I had been told only 3 weeks previously. I sent a text to a member of the Collective seeking clarification, but I did not receive a reply.

The ignorance of some members of the Freedom Collective in terms of AFA and its history is entirely understandable, not least since they are simply too young to have been involved for much of the period covered by O’Shea. Nonetheless, in deciding to publish a book which purports to be “authorised” about such important, but contested history, and written primarily by someone not only outside our movement, but with a track record of antipathy towards Anarchists, I think you have a singular duty to consult as widely as possible with those Anarchist antifascists who were involved in AFA. From what I know, you have completely failed in that duty.

In response to your statement on this thread: You say that the book contains “many different voices”, hopefully so, but I would be surprised if any of them depart substantially (if at all) from the Red Action party-line. I can certainly think of many more different voices which O’Shea would not have dreamed of incorporating into this work. You refer to a ‘consultation period’, can you tell me when this started and when it ended please, because what you say here is at complete variance with what I had understood and previously been told by members of the Freedom Collective? I think I raised a number of ‘unresolved issues’ personally, and others do not take much searching out. Indeed some should be obvious. Freedom may or may not make a profit on this book (all the more reason not to waste ‘anarchist money’ publishing it), but please let’s not pretend that the possibility of making money, particularly from a secondary market fixated on supposed ‘gangsters’ and ‘football hooligans’ has never been a consideration, because I know otherwise. ‘AFA Old Boy’ certainly seems to be laughing all the way to the bank, and I doubt it’s the first time he’s had a good laugh at the expense of Anarchists.

Personally, I would be very interested to read what Gary O’Shea has to say about his days as a militant antifascist in AFA, just as I was with the book written previously by Dave Hann and Steve Tilzey. However, I personally consider it entirely inappropriate that Freedom are publishing this book, and particularly promoting the falsehood that it has been “authorised” somehow. Doing so, to my mind, is nothing less than an act of betrayal not only against the largely unsung Anarchist antifascists who made up the backbone of AFA nationally, and who were often manipulated, belittled and subject to some appalling sectarian attacks, but against those of us who have not lost faith with militant antifascism and continue to take the fight to the fascists despite having our numbers massively reduced as a result of Red Action’s decision to kill off AFA. Please think again about publishing it, why not let Red Action/IWCA publish it themselves? Maybe if they make any money from it they’ll pay into the next Antifa benefit gig they come to, instead of barging in and trying to start a brawl as they did only a couple of years back (do you really want to climb into bed with these people?) By stumbling into the world of militant antifascism in the way you are, you are merely opening old wounds, fuelling old resentments, and possibly aiding in the continued marginalisation of Anarchists in terms of the true history of AFA. That may mean very little to you, but it means a great deal more to comrades who were involved at the time, and who continue to be involved to this day.

I take it as read that you will know who I am.

Antifascist Always

Fractious

27.05.2010 18:21

Nobody has read this book yet!!

As far as i can tell this is all about old scores from 20 years ago and from what i remember the biggest enemy of the left were the factions and the use of personal attacks in the absence of political direction.

Around at the time

the coalition must act now and ban this book said gerry

27.05.2010 19:17

Bloody hell you saddos...so much bottled up vehemence from so called anti fascists. The smear and innuendo is so wonderfully searchlightesque. Hmm. Spotted two I could probably name....their styles' never change.

Always wondered what happened to the headline writer for the daily sport.

What next Gary had secret meeting with Nick Griffin on the other side of the moon and didnt invite the anarchists??

Ahem.

In spite of everything you guys will buy the book to see if your self importance has been recognised in print......and you've missed your f--king discount.

AFA was about delivering on the founding statement. Period. The book is required to set fair the record of what was done, deed and misdeed alike and by whom.

So come on pay up, buy the book, foam at the mouth and hit that keyboard.

The oldest old AFA person ever.....aged 26

The book...

27.05.2010 21:59

...is shit, exactly the sort of lying sectarian crap you'd expect from RA. No wonder no other publisher will touch it with a bargepole. You Johnny Come Lately's make you laugh, you stupid little idiots.

NSG

Common Sense Please

27.05.2010 22:21

What we DO all know is that in terms of their attitudes to personal freedoms and to State control etc, Anarchists and Communists are about as far removed from each other as it's ideologically possible to get. So, any group that ever got people of such divergent beliefs to work together (ever, at all, for no matter how long or how short a time) is bound to produce intense disagreements, without even factoring-in the personal rivalries that sooner or later seem to beset most radical groups. What is surprising about AFA is that they were able to get these factions to work together at all, not that years later people choose to turn round and continue moaning and bitching about it.

What we DON'T all know is what this book actually says yet. Yes the title does seem presumptuous, but to undermine the credibility of that valid criticism by being even more presumptuous would be stupid. So, BEFORE casting judgement, read the damn book!!!

As for "consultation" - no 2 people EVER recall the same event in exactly the same way, and in any organisation with more than a handful of members, for all the members who have been consulted, it will always be possible to find more members who havn't been consulted, with the effect that a consultation process could be forced to go on indefinitely with the effect that no book would therefore ever be published. So, my first suggestion is that if anyone does read the book and doesn't like it, then they should write down and publish their own version of events - in other words come up with something better (!), instead of being wilfully naive about how it is that people actually write and publish books.

Slightly more importantly my second suggestion is that Anti-Fascists should please all make damn sure the time and energy they devote to bitching about this one is definitely less than the time and energy they devote to countering Fascism. Kapisch? Good, I knew you would ;)

Captain Sensible

Rorschach Ink-Blot Test

27.05.2010 23:01

The title "Beating the Fascists" can be read in at least 3 ways. The 1st interpretation would be that "Beating" can be read as meaning "Defeating" the Fascists, with AFA defeating Fascism outright, which AFA did not do... but then again no-one ever will, so that interpretation would be naive. The 2nd interpretation would be that the title refers to AFA defeating Fascists in certain places and at certain times, which I have no doubt they did, so with that interpretation the title seems justified. The 3rd interpretation would be that "Beating" can be read as meaning simply "Hitting" the Fascists (as in "Kicking", "Punching", "Slapping" etc) which I'm certain AFA did often, so with that interpretation the title is also justified. Yes the authors should have chosen a less ambiguous title, but would-be critics should be also aware that when faced with an ambiguous stimulus, people tend to interpret messages in ways that reflect some aspect of their own personality and imagination - y'know, like the Rorschach Ink-Blot Test!

Either way, let's hope this book's author/s and critics have the sense to see the broader picture and celebrate the GOOD people in AFA rather than the inevitable dick-heads. I wasn't in AFA but my partner was, and she speaks very highly of the people she worked with.

Hermann Rorschach

Common sense?

27.05.2010 23:35

Is it cnmmon sense for an anarchist publisher to publish a book which flagrantly attacks anarchists? We shouldn't be having to waste time having this discussion because it shouldn't be neccesary. Some of us spent years of our lives risking life and liberty to try and rid this country of organized fascism. It's bad enough that we were betrayed by our supposed comrades in Red Action without Freedom assisting them in completely rubbishing our achievemeots and painting us out of AFA's history. This book is a pack of lies written by an ageing gang of ruthless trot thugs who lost the will and the heart for militant antifascism years ago, and who to cover up their own shortcomings try to steal the credit deserved by others.

anarchist and antifascist

Time and motion studies

27.05.2010 23:59

I know enough about the history of AFA to know what role the Bob and Tanner skinzine played in contributing to Searchlight's smear campaign against Class War (which, so far as I know, has never been written down by anyone, let alone published), but when I started campaigning against the BNP (using very effective, non-militant online media tools) I made a conscious decision NOT to get involved in organised Anti-Fascist groups, and thank you all for reminding me why

1. If you make yourself known to a group you also make yourself known to the infiltrators, grasses and spies
2. You're bound to end-up being criticised for the crime of actually trying to help
3. Every moment you spend working on group politics is a moment you could have spent attacking Fascists

Much respect to everyone who rises above all this

UK Fight Club

Authorisation

28.05.2010 00:06

Yes Raw Shark the "authorisation" issue is contentious, so is the issue of whether AFA actually beat the Fascists, or whether in fact the Fascists are "still alive and well", to quote Bramley Red earlier in this very thread! If I ever spent too long staring at ink-blot tests mate, then you need to spend more time actually reading this thread ;)

Hermann Rorschach

Excuse me

28.05.2010 00:17

If you spent years of your life risking life and liberty to try and rid this country of organized fascism, then you're very brave, but the unfortunate fact is that you failed, so why all the bitching about who gets the "credit"?

As for whether the book "flagrantly attacks Anarchists" - does it?

Anarchists are capable of many things, but to the best of my knowledge that doesn't include being able to read books that havn't been published yet

Claire Voyant

Words and Deeds

28.05.2010 00:25

There appears to be two different strands developing with regard to the criticism of this book that no-one here has yet read.

One is an apparent quibble with the title and the use of the word 'authorised'.

The other is the very notion that an anarchist publisher should choose to publish the account of a predominantly 'red' section of AFA.

On the first issue I pose this question to you comrades; if the title was more simply put as "Beating The Fascists - A History of Anti-Fascism" would it be acceptable, or is this quibble with the word 'authorised' merely a smokescreen to cover your own political sectarianism and apparent hatred of Red Action?

On the second point, I cannot see the problem in Freedom choosing to publish this account, even if the majority of those contributing to it are members of Red Action. I want to read these comrades accounts of an intensely militant period of struggle against fascism, but I will not read it uncritically.

I welcome the fact that Freedom have put sectarianism to one side in order to give them a platform. I do not believe that Red Action should be no platformed by anarchism. They may be reds but they are not fascists.

Of course the issue has been raised why no anarchist account of the same period? Why leave it to these reds to write what is essentially a shared history?

I would have to counter with, why not? In the absence of anyone else writing a serious analysis of the period I am happy enough to trust the judgement of an anarchist publisher that this is a story worth telling and book worth publishing.

All else appears to be either personal gripe, or political sectarianism.

By all means, let's criticise Red Action, but let's criticise them from an informed political perspective rather than base ourselves upon the type of personalised rants, insinuations and smears that appear to be the work of a few very disgruntled and disaffected individuals posting under a variety of names here.

Let's avoid passing sentence before the trial has even begun.

Old Anarchist

Get cracking

28.05.2010 01:43

I think we're all agreed that use of the word "Authorised" was a poor choice, but the reason Freedom may be choosing to publish what people see as a "Red" version of AFA's history is probably because (beyond the "Bash the Fash" pamphlet - emphasis on the word pamphlet) no Anarchist bothered to write that history from their perspective?

If your computer is powerful enough to post comments on Indymedia, then your computer can also produce a manuscript

Nimrod

Telling it straight

28.05.2010 06:54

Firstly the title is a load of bollocks ....,any book that purports to be authorised by a now defunct group [of around 11 years ] is bound to cause friction with its ex members ,In a reality check how on earth can the author really go around and get permission apart from those he's still in contact with so that really isnt going to happen is it ,As an AFA activist there was never any such thing as membership,it was way more fluid than that,some people lasted for years some got a taste for the violence others didnt and fucked off as soon as they got themslves a respectible job ,some anarchists lost there faith and even joined red action ....some are still at it on the streets now...the way AFA finished was bound to cause friction amongst its old activists.....when NO Retreat came out the Reds went fucking ballistic about it ,most people enjoyed the read ,nice bit of antifa hooli porn ,a bit jackanory in places but still enjoyable to read , the authors never had the cheek to call it an authorised history though !....Just to finish I had a begrudging respect for red action in terms of what they did on the street ,in all other respects I disliked the personalities involved and they treated any differing opinions with utter contempt and thinly veiled threats of violence......''.Nobody liks us we don't care was there motto '' ..Leave Gary O'shea to his moment of glory ,does any one really give a fuck ,...I won'tbe voting for him thats for sure [but will probably steal the book ]

Flower Pot

The book HAS been read

28.05.2010 08:27

And it's shit. If people knew the truth behind this affair they wouldn't know whether to laugh or cry, but most likely they'd be fucking angry. If O'Shea and RA want to publish a book slagging off anarchists and making out AFA was just them nobody can stop them (other than the fact that no other publisher will touch this book.) But why should anarchists publish an account which attacks us and takes huge liberties with the truth?

Joe

Reaiity Check!

28.05.2010 08:29

Has nobody cottoned onto the fact Freedom never publish any new stuff, yet suddenly they are rushing out this dodgy title! Freedom is usually about 2 or 3 young lads who've barely started shaving, they've probably had Gary's Goons in there strong-arming them. That or they've been infiltrated.

Reality Check

Publishing lies

28.05.2010 09:50

It's easy for people who jad no involvement in AFA to say that it doesn't matter if Freedom publish it - they're not the ones who are being slagged off in print and having years of hard struggle ignored in heavy of a few 'Red Action' anecdotes. What the Hell were Freedom ever thinking of in the first place? Please think again.

Original AFA

Really excited!

28.05.2010 10:54

So if this is the official account I can't wait to read:

How their London organiser used his role as a smoke screen to cover what he was really up to with the IRA.

How when the anti terror filth raided his place they found a national AFA membership list and hundreds of people had their details fall into the hands of MI5.

How after AFA had been mothballed one of their most trusted North London comrades mysteriously disappeared and they went to his workplace to find that he never even existed (he was a cop).

How they forced AFA to withdraw from militant anti fascism and become the IWCA to 'politically defeat' the BNP and what a great success that has been.

There has never been a more sectarian and self obsessed group of Stalinist morons than Red Action. The offspring of the SWP they managed to take with them all its worst traits and alienate EVERY group and individual who was not a Red Action party robot. Far from being the vanguard of militant anti fascism they destroyed it. You also won't find a single republican or Irish Solidarity group that does not hate them. These days they are nothing more than a pitiful drinking club. Will anyone buy this book? Unlikely...

Ex AFA

It's simple really

28.05.2010 14:36

You can take Red Action out of the SWP but you can't take the SWP out of Red Action.

Bob Read

@reality check

28.05.2010 14:49

"Has nobody cottoned onto the fact Freedom never publish any new stuff, yet suddenly they are rushing out this dodgy title! Freedom is usually about 2 or 3 young lads who've barely started shaving, they've probably had Gary's Goons in there strong-arming them. That or they've been infiltrated."

I think you knowledge of Freedom is about 7 years out of date. The people involved at Freedom are experienced and good comrades, some of which had involvement with Antifa London.

I know Freedom has been discussing the fallout to this so expect some sort of response to clarify what is ACTUALLY happening with the book.

london anarchists

Could not agree more

28.05.2010 17:58

Bob Read, Ex AFA, Original AFA n many more - you have hit the nail on the head! Red Action are scum and the sooner they are flushed down the toilet of history the better. They've already lied, tricked, betrayed, back-stabbed, manipulated, duped, and abused their way through AFA, and ultimately destroyed it. Why pay for them to abuse us more? All ex AFA comrades should contact Freedom and tell them loud n clear FUCK THE BOOK!

AFA Comrade

FAO London anarchists

28.05.2010 18:11

If Freedom aren't sure what is happening with this book perhaps it'd be a good idea to remove the ad for it from your website, for the time-being at least?

Mike

Will the real AFA anarchists stand up?

28.05.2010 19:50

Ask yourself this question? Why is it that it only on this forum that the slander campaign has reached such hysterical heights? The same freedom press announcement has been discussed on other sites without any of this McCarthyite smearing. So what does this facility offer that they others don't. Simple it allows someone the opportunity for multiple posts. It allows you, if you choose to make absurd allegations about others, including fellow anarchists, anonomously.

People will surely be interested to know that the allegation against Malcolm from Doncaster, a highly respected and long serving regional orgainser in both the DAM and AFA was first made in Searchlight in the early nineties.

Fighting Talk (jointedy edited by a member of RA and Dam) publicly challenged Searchlight to produce evidence, but none was forthcoming.

When Class War were fingered by Searchlight, AFA held and inquiry, Again Searchlight offered not a scintilla of evidence. Who along with the DAM delegates walked out of the meeting, and suspended their own membership for 6 months? Why none other than the 'anarchist-hating' Red Action.

Sometime ago the Manchester Evening News ran a survey on whether Man Utd's manager Alex Ferguson should retire. The answer was an overwhelming YES!

Almost certainly Man City fans to a man. Much the same model is being played out here. Without a shadow of doubt this is a Searchlight agenda. Sure, there may be an individual anarchist here and there who have grumbles sincerely held, but it is the Searchlight operatives which are the only individuals who have reason to fear the book. Not one of them is a genuine anarchist. How can they be if they are prepared to work hand in glove with state?

The only possible reason Izzy Facer is bad-jacketed by them is because she was the one who rumbled their attempted infiltration of the DAM.

If they are any genuine anarchist AFA vets who fought alongside RA members up and down the country from Oxford and Southampton to London, Birmingham and Wolves to Bolton and Manchester, Liverpool to Edinburgh and Glasgow and so forth - now - is the time to stand up.

Afterall it's not really Red Action that is being made to look silly here?

It is the good name of honest anarchist anti-fascists (and the reputation of radical anarchism) that is really being trampled in the mud.

Ps In the meantime let the bravos, the so-called 'AFA veterans' who have been busy shouting the odds on here identify themsleves so everyone can get a good look at you and judge your credentials for themselves.

TC

Machiavelli had it right...

28.05.2010 22:14

"let them hate, so long as they fear". Amazing how a book that hasn't been published yet should attract so much vitriol. I for one will be fascinated to read it, especially if the true extent of Leeds AFa's control by Special Branch/Searchlight are outlined.

It may well be, as some commentators here say, that AFA was wound up prematurely--hopefully a serious debate around the book can cause re-examination of those issues.

Strange to say, I don't recall tendentious disinformation by Renton/Copsey/Hann/Tilzey & other similar creatures attracting this degree of venom. Not difficult to figure out why...

Red Action's view of events is only one--but it deserves to be heard. I, for one, will be listening carefully. One prominent argument in the abuse above is that this book will be 'controversial'--exactly the same argument used by scum to prevent Pluto Press cowards not publishing a book by me in the past. Yet controversy has never been bad for sales, and I do hope Freedom Press resist the efforts of those who want to suppress this book too.

Larry O'Hara
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

Searchlight

28.05.2010 22:47

It's funny to hear Red Action bleating about Searchlight, because right at the start of AFA when Class War were being witch-hunted by Searchlight RA were very cosily in bed with them. How ironic to hear you worthless Stalinists whining about Macarthayism after the way you have behaved. As for Malcolm, I'd hoped never to hear that tout's name again. He was ex NF and pals with South Yorks fash years after he supposedly swapped sides. RA were the only ones who had any time at all for the low-life grass, probably because they had the same employers. Last I heard of him he was offering cash to have a fellow AFA member shot! What you RA shit-heads haven't realised yet is that the really big skeleton in your closet is all the people you shat on over the years - some of us are still here and we haven't forgotten the things you done.

Antifascist

Wind your neck in Larry

28.05.2010 23:17

Maybe if you'd ever once in your life got off your fat arse and actually done some antifascism Larry, you'd realise that there's more at stake here than what you'd be interested in reading and your obsessive conspiracy theories. Not only the reputation of an anarchist publishers, but of a whole generation of anarchist antifascists. Why should both be tarnished just so you've got a book to read now you've finished swallowing Joe Owens' bullshit, and so you can fill the next NFTB with your rehashed theories concerning Paul Bowman? If you're that interested why don't YOU publish it?

Antifascist

Searchlight: A Message From Our Sponsors

28.05.2010 23:18

"The future …man will not just be a man of books, but a man of character. It is to this end that we want to educate you. As a young person, to already have the courage to face the pitiless glare, to overcome the fear of death, and to regain respect for death - this is the task of this young generation. And thus you do well in this midnight hour to commit to the flames the evil spirit of the past. This is a strong, great and symbolic deed - a deed which should document the following for the world to know - Here the intellectual foundation …is sinking to the ground, but from this wreckage the phoenix of a new spirit will triumphantly rise.

I consign to the flames the writings of…"

— Joseph Goebbels , Speech to the students in Berlin

Bookburner

Very brave...

28.05.2010 23:31

I realise, anonymous coward, that you don't like the fact that Notes From the Borderland still exists and is publishing things you diagree with. Good.

Larry O'Hara
mail e-mail: drlarryohara@yahoo.co.uk
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

Book burning?

28.05.2010 23:46

RA must be getting desperate to start trying to conjure up the spectre of book burning to hopefully scare us stupid anarchist liberals into publishing their propaganda for them. There isn't a single poster on this thread advocating banning or burning this book. Talk about the bigger the lie! As for Searchlight, anarchists were among the very first to expose them, and long before they were ever stupidly allowed influence within AFA.

Antifascist

Larry

29.05.2010 00:45

Despite your turgid writing style, and some rather tiresome repetition (not to mention occassional leaps of logic that would make Eric Von Daniken blush) I am actually a long-standing reader of NFTB. I reccomend it to others, and fully share your analysis regarding Searchlight. I have also spent a certain amount of time defending you against casual detractors. You sometimes make that difficult though, and it is ironic that you stupidly encourage Freedom to publish Red Action propaganda. I choose to remain anonymous because unlike yourself I am actually involved in the antifascist struggle, and I have certainly not said anything on here that, if pushed, I would not be quite prepared to say to your face when I pick up my copy of MATB at the next London bookfair.

Antifascist

Really?

29.05.2010 00:59

"unlike yourself I am actually involved in the anti-fascist struggle--how arrogant & patronising. Talk about damned by faint praise...

I certainly have no objection to Freedom publishing this book, not as the end of debate, but as the start of one.

I well know the desperate lengths Searchlight scum go to in order to censor alternative views, and it is patently clear a number of contributions on here come from that quarter.

RA were indeed late in the day to cotton on to Searchlight--but better late than never is what I say. For some contributors here, it is already too late.

Larry O'Hara
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

Izzy

29.05.2010 01:31

Details of the ALf trial involving Izzy Facer can be found in the Sheffield chapter of Keith Mann's trial. It was a big case at the time -Ronnie Lee got 10 yrs - so is heavily covered in the local press, all archived in Sheffield Central ibrary. Not sure what this has to do with the subject of this thread tho, not heard of Izzy in years

@

Not a lots changed

29.05.2010 01:52

Not a lots changed over years has it? If you dont want too do whatever red action said your searchlight!!

Night Owl

publish it freedom!

29.05.2010 14:43

I was in AFA, though didn't do much fighting, far too little! and support Freedom publishing. Yes many of the criticisms of RA are true but so what. I want to see what they have said. I assume Freedom will not lose money. Then as Larry says let the arguments begin!

BTW while O'Shea was no fan of anarchists, when Class War were thrown out ( or did we walk out??) of AFA at their Manchester Conference for being 'racists' [ CWF was accused of being racist and theatenned with expulsion from AFA which was at the time run by CPGB euro-stalinists but was winning the conference over during the debate when a Camden based female stalinist came to the mic and told a tearful and shocked horror story of how Class War had firebombed a refugee centre in Camden .. mayhem ensued and CW walked out followed by, in disgust at these lies, Red Action .. there was nearly a full on fight with Newham Monitoring Project who CW later happily worked with .. the truth was there was no refugee centre and no firebomb but a empty building in camden that was squatted, then evicted for a refugee centre and a peice of small sheet of legal paper on the door of the evicted building that was burnt by the evicted squatters .. THIS is stalinism in action ]

durruti02

Let Red Action publish it

29.05.2010 16:54

What kind of bollocks is that?! Anarchists fork out to pay for thousands of books slagging ourselves off and promoting Red Action! Why can't Red Action publish it? THEN we can have the debate.

Fuck that!

Have been thinking

29.05.2010 20:04

A lot of this is total bollocks. Freedom haven’t ‘maintained an interest’ in it – most of the collective didn’t even know about it until it went up on the website. Hasn’t Dave Hann just died, didn’t know him, but isn’t it a bad time to be attacking an ex comrade of yours (of course you may have your reason’s I really don’t know.) Don’t know much about Izzy Facer either, not in AFA anyway, but I think what’s been said about her is verifiable (though she must have been very young.) Malcolm was a total toilet, always was, but I only knew him until 1987 or 88. A few of the posts above ARE hysterical, but the worst seem to be the ones about book-burning and raving about Searchlies. Searchlies always have an agenda and the stuff about Izzy and Malcolm is a bit wierd, I don’t know the whole story. To make out that everyone opposing Freedom’s publication of this book is working for Gable is bollocks though, you’d be hard pressed to find an ex-afa anarchist that didn’t have a lot of bad things to say about Red Action, you did behave like total cunts a lot of the time afterall (though I put Searchlies in an entirely different category – ie State,) If you want to slag off Hann and other RA members fair enough, it’s your book, but why should Anarchists pay to have it published? Who are Mr & Mrs Outraged, most people reading this won’t have a clue what you’re on about? It’s good that Searchlies are being exposed, but I still think this book should be more appropriately published by Red Action themselves. What’s unfair about that? If you don’t have the cash you could always do it as Publish on Demand or put it online as a PDF. But surely that title is complete shite, how could the book possibly be “authorised”, by who?

anarchist antifascist and former AFA

Publish and be damned!

29.05.2010 20:30

The idea that we have learned nothing from this process would be an underestimation.

As for choosing a publisher or to self-publish... Our own inexperience in the field favoured an approach to progressive publishers with experience of this type of publication and with a ready made distribution network, so it was touted around and came down to the most interest being shown by two anarchists publishers.

The question of having the means to actually print the book was never an issue for us, and is still not whether we are published, or decide to self-publish. No-one is fleecing anyone here. it's a business transaction. Anything we stand to gain from the deal financially, if a success, would see the publisher also reaping financial benefit.

One way or another, like it or not... the book will be published.

Indeed, the marketing campaign has already begun... cheers!

Reader

Boys; 'the gig is up'

30.05.2010 00:48

Well fuckos you've had a good run. But you need to know this. This very night It has been decided that the book will be published - come what may - and regardless of cost.

Frankly, courtesy of the efforts of your goodselves it has now become a political imperative.

So for all us 'BTF' affacinados, that is a good thing.

And don't for minute think for a minute the efforts of you oppositionists on here and elsewhere has gone unnoticed. On the contrary,

Take Mr Bowman for instance who has apparently distinguished himself in the battle for truth and light. Hiding in plain sight. In Ireland? What were you thinking Paul?

Not that we're vindictive or anything. But know this. In the long run we never lose. Not when it matters. That is the proven track record. .

Of course you may be thinking you have tweaked the tigers tales before and got away with it before but if consider this: it may simply have been an administrative oversight. The thing is due to circumstances beyond our control we have time on you hands. And let me tell you this in all honesty, none of you other wasters grandstanding on here wants to become the focus of it.

A good friend of mine was near beaten to death the other day.For no reason. A random atack. Motiveless apparently. But overall it's made me slightly less forgiving.
Of course we brought flowers and grapes...and reassured him that justice will be delivered in time
Or as s Denis C. once famously remarked 'we didn't turn over the fascists to allow ourselves to be fucked over over by the likes of you."

When translated into Latin, it has I'm told, got a real ring to it.

Joseph Reilly

The mask has slipped

30.05.2010 06:29

Looks like the mask has slipped just a wee bit there comrade! Anyone whose never worked with you wouldn't know what a posturing bunch of macho bullies Red Action. A poster above said that they have now been reduced to a drinking club and doesn't that show. Woe be to the anarchist publisher that has to deal with them and shame on Freedom for giving them publicity.

Anarchist

A shame

30.05.2010 06:54

How sad to see that the 'political imperative' of the once mighty Red Action is settling scores from 20 years ago rather than taking on the EDL and BNP. An earlier generation of RA members are surely shaking their heads in dismay.

Arturis

'and let me tell you this'

30.05.2010 07:04

And let me tell u this boy, let me tell u this oh oh looks like troubles brewin down the pensions office!

cheeky young rascal

Oh dear Joseph

30.05.2010 07:19

If ever there was an example of what a bunch of posturing idiots Red Action are you have just so eloquently made it.

Freedom...are you lot taking the piss?

Ruahri Ó Cléirigh

Reader - a fair response

30.05.2010 07:36

That's a very fair response Reader, hopefully lessons have been learned on all sides. While i personally don't think that this version of the AFA story should be published by Freedom or AK, there are a range of left-wing publishers you could approach and who might perhaps be more straightforward to deal with. Also if you did decide to publish the book yourselves you could still tap into existing distribution networks. The latter option would give you far greater control and maximise revenue, which you would hopefully donate to today's militant antifascists. I do hope you compromise on the title though.

Antifascist

Tweaked the tigers tale!!

30.05.2010 08:17

That tweaked the tigers tail post is absolutely fucking priceless!! Obviously RA had their 'meeting' in the pub as usual! How're the hangovers today boys?!

LOL!

Where's the money?

30.05.2010 09:14

"which you would hopefully donate to today's militant antifascists."

You must be fucking joking! They nicked all the national AFA pot and are now trying to make cash out of our collective history and the AFA photo archive which they also nicked. RA are a bunch of thieves!

anti-fascist

Red Action and Dublin

30.05.2010 09:26

Red Action might perhaps be concerned with their stupid mate in Dublin who put this post up in the first place and has now possibly cost you a publishing deal. If you could have all kept your mouths shut for a few more weeks you might just have got away with it.

And as you probably know, your hated even more in Dublin than you are in London.

worth thinking about

Red Action..a sad day indeed.

30.05.2010 09:35

You have consistently failed to achieve anything on your own.

You were just a small part of AFA.

You walked from militant anti-fascism to follow the BNP into parliamentary politics.

Your experiment failed miserably while the BNP took 500,000 odd votes a few weeks ago.

You are nowhere to be seen while fascism is back on the rise and back on the streets.

You can't even publish a book without anarchist help.

Your members get pissed and post drivel all over the internet.

You have never believed in unity as the post above by 'Joseph Reilly' illustrates.

Your threats appear to be that of an organisation that had it's day years ago and now is resigned to throwing it's collective dummy out of the pram.

Yes, sad day indeed.

Bob Rydon

shameful

30.05.2010 09:46

"And don't for minute think for a minute the efforts of you oppositionists on here and elsewhere has gone unnoticed. "

That post shows the true face of red action - a gang of drunken bullies - just like people have said. So much for the discipline of the left, coming on here making threats because people don't like your book - you should be ashamed of yourselves - you and freedom press for allowing you to snick your ugly snouts back into the anarcho scene - you were better dead and forgotten

IM Reader

Psychic abilities FAO Joe

30.05.2010 11:06

How do you actually know who is posting on here ? Is it because you've only got 2 percieved enemies , Fuck me Red Action were hated by many on the left .How on earth do you know if Bowmans posted or not ? From what I remember of him [not seen in 10 years or more] he was not exactly shy of putting his own name about so I imagine if he's posting he'd sign his own name.As to anonymous postings , If your going to make threats like you just did it's no wonder we choose to stay anonymous isn't it Joe /Joseph ,A little birdy on Urban 75 told me years ago who you were ,Talk about the Brighton dwelling vicars son re inventing himself as a working class warrior ,a complete an utter fake...

An Ex comrade ofmost of you

The Mock Horror Show

30.05.2010 21:28

"The true face of Red Action bully boys..."

Oh, come now chaps, let's not be getting too hysterical about all of this...

Considering the barely concealed threats that have been made to the interested publisher on here I hardly think the finger pointing starts at Red Action on this thread.

We came here in good faith to advertise a book that we feel will add to the general understanding of the fight against fascism.

The hysterics and the threatening tone started thereafter.

An old comrade, in an effort to temper my burst of youthful enthusiasm for the sport of fash bashing, once remarked that we didn't have to win the fight against fascism in one day, thatn it was a long war strategy. Some of our opponenents were worth saving for another day. He quipped, "We'll get them in the long grass..."

Or as Sun Tzu put it in the Art of War :

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

Reader

Eager to wound but afraid to strike?

31.05.2010 06:42

I just read the whole thing through from top to bottom. It's like one long poison pen letter. The fear, rage and jealously is palapable. Fascinating. My guess is that there are not really that many involved. Maybe four or five mainstays at the most. For one, the timings show the posts tend to come in clusters. Plus the themes are too uniform. Every now and again a genuine thread would stray off message.

Taken as a piece it is genuinely astonishing. Driven most certainly, but also sort of cowardly and dare I say it, at base, more than a little bit fascistic.

Not to come across as an utter hypocrite and in order to set an example I was almost tempted to sign off with my actual name but then again I think - why run the risk of getting a shit parcel through the letter box.

Yours,

In genuine shock and awe..

'Anon'

'Anon'

Threats?

31.05.2010 09:35

This thread is such an unpleasant trip down memory lane. Red Inaction have been using the same lines for so long for so long they probably believe. Please spare us your macho posturing and cod military strategy boys. I can't see any threats being made against Freedom, only threats from RA bullies, which is hardly new behaviour is it, it's RA's complete raison d'etre. Something RA wouldn't understand is that Freedom are part of our movement, with all that entails in terms of mutual respect and responsibility. They are guilty of nothing more than being naive. Red Inaction on the other hand are a ruthless gang of parasites who wil attept to live off any host that will tolerate them.

Never again

be intrested to read it

31.05.2010 10:02

you have to take all stuff with a pinch of salt but sound like this will be an intresting read. rea action should print it themselfs tho. general mac

general mac

taking stock

31.05.2010 12:46

There seems to be three strands emerging here in terms of opposition to Freedom's involvement in this book:-

1. Those who seem to think the book consists entirely of slagging off and attacking anarchists - e.g..

"...If O'Shea and RA want to publish a book slagging off anarchists...."
"...they're not the ones who are being slagged off in print....",
"...Is it cnmmon sense for an anarchist publisher to publish a book which flagrantly attacks anarchists?"

As the book is presumably not yet in the public domain, this is clearly just conjecture. However given the obvious historical antagonism that exists, as evidenced by the comments on this thread, then to some extent its probably understandable (although not really excusable) that these allegations are thrown around without basis. However to take this stock position on the contents of an unread book, seems to give little credit to those anarchists on the Freedom collective who have presumably actually read the book, and as a collective felt that they should be involved in publishing the thing. Surely they should be credited with a little bit more nous than what has been offered so far, but instead the individuals involved are subject to ridicule and humiliation (i.e. "Freedom is usually about 2 or 3 young lads who've barely started shaving") which other than showing a complete lack of knowledge and awareness as to those who are actually involved in Freedom, is clearly a macho type attempt to pressurise them to ditch their involvement with the thing.

2. Those who seem to think that Freedom's involvement in this amounts to bankrolling/subsidising the thing - e.g..

"..Anarchists fork out to pay for thousands of books slagging ourselves off.."
"wtf should @ money pay for a red version of shared histery"
"Why pay for them to abuse us more?"

Given the interest that seems to have been generated in the book so far (e.g. Freedom having to pull the special offer pre-publication price due to overwhelming demand from media/press and orders), it seems to me that whoever publishes the thing, is more than likely to come off better financially than worse (not to mention the publicity and exposure that is likely to be generated for Freedom as publisher) - so when this is combined with allaying the fears of (2) above, it would seem like a pretty good deal for the anarchist movement all round. Perhaps any money made by Freedom once their own costs have been covered could be used to fund/subsidise an anarchist history of AFA? I'm surprised one hasn't been written already.

3. Those who don't want to see the book published at all (but use (1) and (2) above as cover)

Clearly anyone who would want to suppress publication of an on the ground history (regardless of this or that perspective) is not someone whose views should be given any import by anyone on either 'side' here

RB

One major problem...

31.05.2010 13:52

...appears to be that only 1 person has read it (if that) The post saying the collective unanimously decided to publish it is bogus. The stuff on the website was written by red action n put up by the person referred to above. Hopefully it'll be resolved this week but it's been a fuck up from start to finish and the person responsible for this mess owes everyone- the freedom collective, the wider movement, and red action - a fucking good apology

Ex London AFA

Taking stock

31.05.2010 14:17

There are also those of us who would like to see the book published, but just not by Freedom - and preferably not at all with that deceptive title. Also, don't assume that no anarchist antifascists have now read the book. As for the idea that Freedom should publish this book, and then we might have the cash to pay for an Anarchist version of events - Do I really need to say more?! Nice try RA (and RB), but publish it yourselves.

BB

Bankrolling?

31.05.2010 15:07

I agree with Rb above that this project may not involve any bankrolling/subsidizing of the book by Freedom IN THE LONG RUN. However it will involve a substantial long-term investment in what may well turn out to be a very risky venture in all sorts of ways. At the very least it will tie up capital which could AND SHOULD be used for promoting Anarchism.

Dan

mock horror?

31.05.2010 15:19

See nowts changf at Red Action towers. still excusing anti social behaviour by your members just as when gary o'shea was accused of rape. that never got investigated cos you absolutley terrorised anyone that spoke out. now your trying too make out your reasoneble cos you think @s are just liberal mugs

Old Hat

taking stock

31.05.2010 15:19

so if the above two comments after my last post are to believed, no anarchists from freedom have read the book, but loads of anarchists who have nothing to do with freedom have read it?

RB

RB - YES & NO

31.05.2010 15:30

Yes RB, last I heard only 1 member of the Freedom Collective had read it - or at least perused it. It's not been read by loads of others, but it has been read by a small number of committed antifascists. Don't know if they have posted on here or not.

anarchist

Return of serve

31.05.2010 16:06

This discussion has been most illuminating, to say the least.

If anyone here has actually read the book, apart from me and the one other poster who I definitely know has read it, where is the cold and politically critical, analytical review of its contents on Indymedia?

Repetition of the "it's shit" mantra hardly does anyone justice here, least of all those who spent the time over the last few years actually writing it, and even less so those that would offer such a 'review' of their work.

The hysterical overreaction doesn't exactly paint a good picture of those anarchists here who are blindly following where Searchlight leads them.

Again, to the costs and 'investment' issue, the anarchist publishers were insured against losses by our preparedness to put our money where our mouths are. The publishers are in a win-win situation. They could publish and sell a shitload of books and reap the financial rewards, or they could publish and sell none... and still lose nothing from the transaction because they had our own offer of financial insurance against even the costs of printing it. They would be covered for any losses incurred. That's how confident we are.

All of the concerns expressed here as to the financing of the publication (even those that I am prepared to accept as being genuine) were taken into account and insured against.

Next?

Where's the review?

Review copies

31.05.2010 16:44

When I was in the mainstream publishing business copies of books were generally circulated for publication prior to them hitting the shops. Of course, prior to this proofs were circulated to be checked for accuracy. The book may have been proof-read by Red Action, but it has only come to the attention of other former AFA members very recently, and they have not been consulted as to its content. Why could Freedom have consulted with anarchist former AFA members prior to publication?

Keen to review

Get Real...

31.05.2010 17:32

So Red Action are to circulate the book around the unnamed "anarchists" and "antifascists" posting here to get their personal approval or disapproval of the book?

Are each of these dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of "anarchists" to have the right of personal veto over the project as well?

Get real you dipsticks.

I'd like to read this book and don't give a fuck who publishes it - them or us.

Some of you lot really need to catch on to what is being said here.You're making anarchism look like a real fucking joke throwing fits over this.

Embarrassed Anarchist

Deal or No Deal?

31.05.2010 18:50

I say deal.

The money's guaranteed, it's history (albeit a flawed one) of an important period, issue and organisation ...and the money is guaranted whichever box you open, either way.

Yeah, I'll take the money please Noel.

DEAL

Noel Edmonds

The moneys guaranteed?

31.05.2010 20:41

From these cunts? You must be fucking joking! We thought we could trust them in afa and we got robbed blind!

Not 2 b trusted

Please publish!

31.05.2010 22:15

I was an activist in AFA from 1987 through to the late 90s. As a socialist I had the pleasure to work with comrades from both anarchist and socialist backgrounds. The thing that struck me about AFA from a perspective down in the sticks was that we were enormously succesful, in large part, precisely because activists from these differing traditions worked together so well. In my exprience we mobilised together as AFA activists - not as socialists or anarchists. What united us was a commitment to the founding basis of AFA - to confront fascism ideologically and physically. A simple but effective formula combined with a genuine hostility to collaboration with the State (it did take a while for AFA nationally to reject any links with Searchlight - but in the end they did).

I'm proud to have worked with comrades from DAM and Class War as well as comrades from Red Action and other individual socialists and anarchists. To this day I have come away from the experience with an enormous sense of solidarity with all those comrades I worked with in the AFA days. Of course I had differences with Red Action and with the various anarchist groups as well - but when it came to the crunch we mobilised together very effectively.

The history of AFA is something for all of its participants to be proud of. To see it today purely through the prism of petty sectarianism is to lose what made us strong as a movement at the time. Incidently I have no problem accepting the scoailsit groups can be dreadfully sectarian - but sadly they don't have a monopoly of sectarianism, I would suggest that their sectariaianism is unfortunately reflected in the anarchist movement as well.

Of course the AFA experience was uneven - AFA from the late 80s onwards had a federal structure and many of the regional and local groups had differing complexions and different priorities and approaches.

The phenomenom that was AFA is part of our collective history and I would far rather that a slightly skewed version of its history is published than no history at all. AFA was about militant working class oppostion to the fascists - liberal anti-fascism would love this militant tradition to be written out of history. I think the publishing of this book will be a service to the movement - of course it is bound to be flawed but any such work will undoubtedly be skewed to the expereinces and the politics of those who write it.

AFA activist

doesn't make sense

31.05.2010 22:26

@ anarchist - "but it has been read by a small number of committed antifascists.Don't know if they have posted on here or not"

presumably if those who are certain that the book is full of slaggings & attacks on anarchists form part of that small group of committed antifascists to which you refer, then it would be fairly straightfoward process for them to prove their credence by posting up some examples from the book which backs up the points they make so vigorously here? It would certainly make their claims far more credible in the eyes of anyone reading this thread and trying to work out what the actual situation is.

if on the other hand those who claim the book is full of attacks on anarchists haven't actually read it, or those who have supposedly read it have made no comment here in regards to its content (and the claims surrounding that content), then the former suggests the deliberate spreading of misinformation and for what purpose you have to ask, and the later suggests a certain contentment with the contents - none of these two things bode that well for supporting the claims that have been made here

the other question I have is why is all this being played out entirely on indymedia? as far as i'm aware, the book has been advertised in a similar fashion to here on urban75, libcom, MATB etc... yet none of these places have seen any of the reaction seen on here. All of these sites have a substantial anarchist presence (MATB fair enough is pretty much dead these days) and libcom itself is an anarchist site, yet no one has voiced any concerns at any of these places - why would that be?

RB

We are Anarchists, not liberals

01.06.2010 09:11

I posted earlier on this thread, but having sooken to several members of the Freedom collective directly I have refrained from posting since. I believe that others, who have read the book, will do the same, pending a statement from the Freedom collective later this week. AFA activist, you obviously had a strong involvement in AFA. But were you consulted in any way, shape, or form about this so-called 'authorised' version of AFA's history? I very much doubt it. This is not a sectarian issue, we all have differing politics, but why should anyone expect Freedom to publish a Red Action book anymore than they would the SWP to publish a book written by Anarchists? We are Anarchists not liberals.

Antifascist Always

My two penn'orth

01.06.2010 11:58

This thread is heated and strays from the central argument on a number of occasions. That is perhaps understandable though, or at least inevitable, bearing in mind that it deals with such a contentious subject, and one for which some people clearly harbour a good deal of resentment.

I knew quite a lot of Red Action members years ago, and was very good friends with some of the ‘big names’. I always bought their paper, and followed their political course with interest. I think they set out with good intentions, but lost their way towards the end – both in terms of AFA and in terms of the Irish struggle in my opinion. Moreover, their behaviour, particularly from the mid 90’s onwards could be divisive, and unacceptable in terms of the way they dealt with antifascists and others outside their group. People used to say they had been infiltrated by the State, but the same was often said about Class War, and I’ve never seen any hard evidence to support either claim. A lot of people didn’t like Red Action, and it really might have been better if they had not revelled in this. Certainly it would be better in terms of their reputation today, and in terms of securing a publishing deal from anarchists or other left-wing groups.

Searchlight were a different animal; cold, calculating, and ruthless to a far greater extent than Red Action at their worst. After their exposure by ‘Anarchy’ magazine in the early 1980’s, I have absolutely no idea why anyone was prepared to work with them. I have heard it said that they provided good quality information to AFA, that may have been the case, but personally I saw little evidence of it. People within AFA used to send THEM plenty of information, foolishly in my opinion. You can be sure that Searchlight certainly provided plenty of information to the State. Their influence on AFA was corrosive from the beginning, and I really cannot believe that they were not jettisoned after the Class War smear episode, which caused so much trouble at the time.

Larry O’Hara has been on a mission to expose Searchlight for a long time, but his publication ‘Notes From The Borderland’ can be impenetrable (sorry Larry) and doesn’t circulate widely (so far as I know.) So it’s always good to see Searchlight, who are always up to the same tricks, being exposed more widely – whether it is on Indymedia, in the Antifa England newsletter, or in this book. Antifascism ought to be well rid of this state sponsored entity, and anything that contributes to informing the uninformed about them is a good thing in my book.

Having said that, sometimes it is all too easy to point the finger at Searchlight, as seems to have happened on a number of occasions on this thread. People post shit for all sorts of reasons, and there are clearly plenty of unsettled scores from AFA, so Searchlight aren’t necessarily involved at all.

What IS suspicious is the names that have been introduced onto this thread, for no easily discernible reason. I have known both Izzy Facer and Malcolm from Doncaster (Malcolm Astell?) in the past, but wasn’t aware of Izzy’s involvement in AFA. Without knowing the circumstances of their involvement in this story, or what their connection to Searchlight is, it’s difficult to comment. Hopefully, it will be clearer after reading the book.

Izzy, I first knew in 1983, and for some years after that. She would have been no more than 16 in 1983, and in fact she went out with a mate of mine briefly. Unfortunately, she got involved with an ALF cell a couple of years later, and I do believe what has been said about her on this thread is broadly true. She did contribute to people getting nicked, did give evidence against them, and got a much reduced prison sentence (of 6 months) as a result. It’s a shame, but it’s also true. As for involvement in DAM and AFA, I couldn’t say, I know absolutely nothing about it.

I knew Malcolm for longer. He was in the National Front and at Lewisham with them in 1977, before later getting involved with Doncaster Anarchist Group. He was still very fiercely ‘anti-communist’ though, as well as being very much against anything he perceived as Irish Nationalism. He was in Sheffield on the day of the 1984 Bloody Sunday march, but baulked at the idea of getting stuck into the fascists and refused to come on the march with the rest of us. Then we saw him standing with the fascists and loyalists outside the Crucible Theatre (that year the march finished opposite there, at an area known as ‘Speakers Corner’ next to the Fiesta nightclub.) Later he was involved in spreading a lot of dangerous lies about Sheffield Anarchists, telling people that they were carrying guns and knee-capping fascists every night of the week. He made a real campaign of it which went on a long time and eventually got to the attention of the police, as well as causing trouble for the group with the numerous pacifist groups around at the time. There’s more I know about Malcolm, and I consider him a nasty piece of work, sneaky, underhand, and absolutely ruthless. Despite leaving the NF, he also maintained contact with them or at least with individual fascists in South Yorkshire for some years afterwards. He defended this by saying that he did not consider them any worse than communists or Irish Nationalists. Perhaps he had a conversion in terms of his politics later on; certainly he was on the 1987 Bloody Sunday march with AFA and Red Action (though he was by this point persona non grata with Anarchists in Sheffield.) In terms of DAM, he may have been their ‘regional organizer’ (for South Yorkshire), but in the mid 80’s DAM had about 2 members in Doncaster, and none in Sheffield. Whether or not he was “well respected” within DAM, I don’t know, but he was certainly not well-respected by anarchists generally. I don’t know what the accusations against Malcolm made by Searchlight were – I have never seen any evidence that he was working for the state, or even passing information to the fascists, and he was open about his previous NF membership when I knew him. In my experience he was a liar and could not be trusted, ruthless, scheming, and in my opinion his behaviour in terms of Sheffield Anarchists amounted to touting.

Returning to the subject of the book, assuming it is written by Red Action/Gary O’Shea, I think it is bound to be very partisan at best, and concentrate on Red Action activities as the ‘No Retreat’ book did. Nothing wrong with that, but might it not be better to choose another title, rather than justify some of the accusations being made? A history of Red Action itself would make a fascinating read, as indeed I believe would their perspective on AFA, but to say the book is “authorised” is a bad starting point for any open-minded reader. I also believe that Red Action would be far better publishing the book themselves, and that Freedom appear to have been rather naive in thinking that this would be a straightforward publishing venture.

No Pasaran!

Baldy men fighting over combs?

01.06.2010 12:40

Like AFA activist I spent many challenging but happy days at the coalface of militant anti-fascism.

Like him I had friends amongst all the different groups and political shades.

Like him I look forward to the Publication of this book.

When Baldy Dave and Steve published their book many of my old friends were outraged at it's content (I wasn't too pleased myself either). However I said to them exactly what I say to you now...

Don't like this one. Write your own.

Don't like the writers? Write your own.

Why not stop crying on here and start your own... just collecting and collating all the infantile bile on here will keep you occupied for a while. Quite frankly all this 'Only (real) anti-fascist in the village' and 'how very dare you...' nonsense is tiresome.

"From these cunts?!?" Oh dear, oh dear 'Not2betrusted'. I don't know who you are and have no interest either. However, I think I can say without fear of contradiction that you would not have used such a term to Red Action people's faces 'back in the day'. Not because you would have got a well-deserved slap, but because other comrades (reds, anarcho's and liberals) would have told you to shut the fuck up... because we were few enough in number as it was... and because the enemy were the Fash... not our mob.

I suspect the determination of some posters on this thread to always be 'on the outside pissing in' is less to do with Politics and more to do with your own psychological frailties. People's Popular Front of Judea beware!

LiamO

Keepin The (One, True) Faith

01.06.2010 12:50

Some of the dafter tantrums on here put me in mind if this...

I was walking across a bridge one day when I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said “Stop. Don’t do it!”.
“Why shouldn’t I?”, he said. I said “Well there’s so much to live for!”.
“Like what?” he said.
I said “Well, are you religious or aetheist?”.
He said “Religious.
I said “Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?”
He said “Christian”
I said “Me too! Are you protestant or catholic?”
He said “Protestant”
I said “Me too! Are you Episcopalean or Baptist?”
He said “Baptist”
I said Wow. Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or are you Baptist Church of the Lord”
He said “Baptist Church of God”
I said “Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?”
He said “Reformed Baptist Church of God”
I said “Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God of 1879 or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?”
He said “Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915”
So I said “Die, heretic scum!” and pushed him off.

EMO PHILLIPS

LiamO

Write yr own

01.06.2010 14:09

Theres going to be one main problem for anyone wanting to write an alternative account - alonp with the cash Red Action also nicked the entire AFA archive of documents and photographs!

Sceptic

Red Action

01.06.2010 14:27

You are right Liam, people were always reluctant to say anything to Red Action's faces. Generally because they risked being beaten to a pulp, smeared, lied about, hounded out of AFA, ordered to leave the country, or even shot. A lot of these options will also be faced by anyone opposing any aspect of its publication or adversely reviewing it.

Sceptic

The horror, the horror...

01.06.2010 15:25

What a bunch of primadonnas some anarchists are...

You always were a theatrical bunch when you were in AFA, but the amateur dramatics on display here amply demonstrates how the AFA chorus line would have performed without the lead of Red Action.

It's embarrassing to watch the pathetic bleaters on here who, 13 years after the fact, are still blaming Red Action for their own lack of ability to do anything of significance post-AFA. You really ought to stop whining, it's extremely undignified.

If Red Action were so bad and such a drag on genuine anti-fascism as defined by anarchists, then surely an anti-fascist movement that was still committed to AFA principles would have flourished without their involvement?

However, since 1997, what has anarchism produced; what great victories have we seen during that time; what kind of unified, non-sectarian, class-based, anti-fascist movement has been built by you?

.... ANTIFA !?!?

What a splendid example of what AFA could have been without Red Action involvement. Proof if any were needed that Antifa is not AFA and that AFA just would not have been AFA without Red Action.

You've had an open field for the last 13 years and you have built NOTHING.

Come on, with all the expert voices of experience that have gathered here to shit on the AFA book, Antifa is really the pinnacle of your endeavours?

You've got to have some better example than that to offer, surely?

13 years and that's the sole product you've come up with, and you still think you are qualified to pronounce on this book?

You jokers don't deserve any say with regard to the publishing this book, nor do you deserve one cent of the cash Red Action will make from it. It would be wasted on you.

Add it up and see what you get... Your finest hour in 13 years since the demise of AFA will amount to you perhaps persuading an anarchist publisher to take its name off the publishers imprint on a book about AFA, but it will not stop the book from being published.

Talk about a hollow victory.

Antifahaha

Don't Put Your Daughter On The Stage...

01.06.2010 16:04

"...along with the cash Red Action also nicked the entire AFA archive of documents and photographs!"

Nicked?

Please name the amount of cash with evidence that Red Action supposedly 'nicked' off AFA? There was no cash and no theft. Another lie nailed.

Archive of documents and photographs?

Do you mean that Red Action held on to the intelligence info that they had gathered on the fash, or that they had held on to an 'archive' that their members had gathered and maintained?

Why would they hand this over to anyone else, and at the time, who would you have nominated as the person or people to handle this information and 'archive'.

Perhaps Red Action should have reverted to bit players, playing researcher to some self-appointed anarchist overlord who would write the 'real history' of AFA?

Sceptic: "...people were always reluctant to say anything to Red Action's faces. Generally because they risked being beaten to a pulp, smeared, lied about, hounded out of AFA, ordered to leave the country, or even shot."

Oh come on, it's time this lie was nailed too.

Evidence please? When did any of the above happen?

"...beaten to a pulp"?
"...ordered to leave the country" ??
"...shot" ???

People capable of such dastardly deeds I would be very glad to have on the side of anti-fascism, but I suspect that your accusations are the product of an extremely vivid imagination and indeed fall into the 'smears and lies' bracket that you yourself have identified.

The use of this thread to spread smears, lies and slander by political opponents of a book covering the history of AFA has been an educational experience.

There was, undeniably on the evidence of the posts here, an element within AFA that actually hated Red Action more than they hated the fascists; who griped, moaned, preened, postured and did fuck all other than that.

Those anarchists that played a full part in the struggle against the fascists between 1977 and 1997 are acknowledged. The book isn't about anarchism. It's not even about Red Action. It's about AFA's method of fighting fascism.

The fash haven't even been mentioned on this thread, funny that, innit?

Septic Sceptic

Rush of blood to the head...

01.06.2010 16:25

“You are right Liam, people were always reluctant to say anything to Red Action's faces. Generally because they risked being beaten to a pulp, smeared, lied about, hounded out of AFA, ordered to leave the country, or even shot”.

I didn’t say ‘people’ I said YOU.

When I wore a younger man's clothes I was never afraid to say anything to anybody in Red Action’s face, including all their top people. I called various individuals all sorts over the years. Traded insults regularly and even blows on a couple of occasions, but I never woke with a horses head in my bed. Not once.

In fact i regularly saw RA people restrain themselves admirably when confronted by idiot lefties frothing at the mouth with mowal outwage - or indeed when perfectly good people had had too much drink and were at less than their best (previous good character and battle honours shared always seemed to be taken fully into account).

But then being in or around Red Action was a bit like drinking in a rough pub. Respect and manners was assured and expected. Pity idiots like you had to spend years muttering darkly into your shandy, before you grew the balls to cunt people off anonymously on here.

If RA were anything like the way you portray them there would be bodies everywhere. Perhaps you choose to use your (ahem) ‘fear’ as an excuse for your own invertebrate lack of action since AFA’s demise.

WHO exactly was ever beaten to a pulp? Made leave the country? SHOT (WTF!!!).
It would be fair to say that Tilz and baldy dave upset them gravely… were they murdered in their beds? I think not.

You are plainly a fantasist. Could you please send me some of the drugs you must be on.

SCEPTIC? Fuckin septic more like

“A lot of these options will also be faced by anyone opposing any aspect of its publication or adversely reviewing it.”

What a pile of stinky old poo! You really are a silly old sausage aren't you?

LiamO

Write yer own

01.06.2010 16:55

Write yr own
01.06.2010 14:09

"Theres going to be one main problem for anyone wanting to write an alternative account - alonp with the cash Red Action also nicked the entire AFA archive of documents and photographs!
Sceptic"

I don't believe for one minute that RA 'stole' money. These are people to whom I often trusted my physical well-being, my liberty and (occasionally) my life. I say this last thing without so much as a hint of the melodramatic fantasy you seem to wallow in.

Every man's dignity has it's price and most RA people I knew put, and were prepared to pay, a very high price on theirs. They are generally amongst the most honourable people I have ever had the pleasure to work and play alongside. There were many dilettantes around, about whom I could say no such thing.

So they should have let all you sad individuals have one photo each?

LiamO

Talk about multiple personalities!

01.06.2010 18:11

Getting bitter now are we lads? You've not exactly achieved a lot yourselves have you? The IWCA, for which you killed off AFA, where have they got in the last 13 years? You haven't even been able to get your poxy book published in most of that time. It must have killed you to have to suck up to a bunch of anarchists and you couldn't even get that right! If only Red Action had had the numbers to match your egos. But you didn't, you were a small minority group. The vast majority of AFA branches didn't have ANY RA members. Now you're just a bunch of bloated, bitter old men, moaning into your pints and trying to live off your long-past glory days until you die. No amount of fairy tales will make you look any the less pathetic.

Still Fighting The Fash (where were YOU in Newcastle?)

The mistake you are making...

01.06.2010 20:30

... is to continue to cunt off absolutely any hint of reasonableness or liberal attitudes among your own milliue.

You see, not all of the personalities posting here are the same person, certainly not on the Red Action side anyway. I suspect that the more reasonable posts from anarchists, even those that disagree with us from a sectarian ideological standpoint, are genuine.

Someone like Liam O, for example, is writing here not at the behest of Red Action, but for himself, No-one asked him to come here and stick his oar in, but even the reasonable voices from within Red Action, people like Liam O who has maintained personal links with people that RA cunted off long ago, even he must be battered down and labelled an enemy along with the rest of us.

It's amusing to watch how all reasoned argument and reasonable voices are cunted off and drowned out here.

The real 'multiple personalities' on this thread are those like Tilzley, Bowman and Wright, who set the tone of this thread and whose posts are easy to distinguish from the rest.

Those mugs from within anarchism who have enthusiastically added to their bile are simply that... MUGS.

I repeat again that we came here in good faith to advertise a book that we feel makes an important contribution to an important period of anti-fascist history.

Those who refuse to accept that, or even recognise the contribution that this book will make to that debate, obviously have their own political and personal agendas to carry out.

The shithouses from within anarchism who are happy to follow that agenda do all of anarchism a disservice.

I hear you're describing this as an "11th hour opportunity" to stop the book being published.

And you describe us as pathetic?

We'll see you on the other side of the best-sellers list bozoes.

Thanks for all the publicity so far... especially now that you're advertising the forthcoming book worldwide.

We couldn't have paid for this kind of publicity campaign.

Hook, line, sinker...

Our name is Red Action.

Goodnight.

Reader

FFS!

01.06.2010 22:47

FFS Freedom! Fucking wake up! Red Action - get on and publish the book yourselves!

FFS!

Wright?

01.06.2010 22:51

Tilzey I've heard of. Bowman too. But who's Wright?

FFS!

fair comment

01.06.2010 23:43

Thankfully, some more reasoned commentators have now entered into the fray, and the slugs have no doubt crawled back to their lairs to await further instructions.

No Pasaran (?) makes some fair points

1) NFB magazine is sometimes impenetrable--but not always! And Searchlight For Beginners isn't..

2) Our circulation isn't as good as we would like it to be, in part because those who read it most cerafully are often those threatened by it, hence their desire to deny us the oxygen of publicity. Aside from distributing ourselves, Housmans sells all back issues (Caldonian Rd London) and Central Books distribure us.

3) Our current web-site and SEO techniques etc are pathetic: but that will be addressed. Among many other sections, we hope to have an online archive/comprehensive links section covering the Searchlight organisation in depth. This will then help the 'collective memory' of anti-fascists. More on this later.

Suffice to say, it is interesting how some self-proclaimed 'anarchists' act as the Trojan Horse for spooks seeking to disrupt militant anti-fascism. Under no circumstances should Freedom bow down to this attempted censorship.

Larry O'Hara
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

juts the title

02.06.2010 02:16

To be honest I wasn;t involved in AFA, having lived in another country, with completely different antifascist story there, but I always closely followed stuff over here... My only problem is with the title- how the fuck can you call it "authorised" story? It just sounds fucking silly. Apart from that- it will be definitely an interesting read, although not sure why RA didn't publish it themselves since its their account of AFA days.

Anti-fascist

Self-publish and be damned!

02.06.2010 06:27

"although not sure why RA didn't publish it themselves since its their account of AFA days"

Am I missing something?

If I want a door hanging, I go see a carpenter.

If I want my car fixed, I go to a mechanic.

If I want a political book published and printed, I go to a publisher/printer of political books.

I'm a brickie. I build walls. Most RA people I knew worked on building sites (obviously I use the term 'worked' very loosely). How exactly does this equip them to publish books? Useless fuckers, eh? Bet there was no rocket scientists among them either. Deadbeats.

All the rest is just semantics, sectarianism and infantile tantrum-throwing. I sincerely hope the book is a bit more 'grown-up' than most of the negative (and let's face it, IGNORANT) diatribe on here - about a book none of the loudest shouters have even read.

LiamO

Author Lux Sake!

02.06.2010 11:31

For Wright try substituting the nome de guerre 'Martin Lux' and you may know the man with the poison pen... Until now, naming names has been a feature of those who oppose the book, perhaps they should be aware that we have marked their cards too...

Pretty obvious from where I'm sitting, the author of a vanity press account of his alleged derring-do as a very junior member of the anti-fascist movement, so junior in fact that no-one else appeared to noticed his heroic deeds.

Vested interest? Maybe.

More likely just sour grapes, jealousy, personal antipathy and political sectarianism... a willing dupe of the tone set here by the Searchlight operatives,

As for the word 'authorised', there was a conciliatory post way back in this thread that made a suggestion on this, which I think Red Action might have been willing to consider had the publisher raised an objection to including the word 'authorised' in the title. It is a negotiable point.

'Beating The Fascists - A History of Anti-Fascist Action'.

All of your concerns have been addressed here, but it seems that some are too blind, pig-headed or bent to see it.

Reader

Further thought

02.06.2010 16:11

Larry – Thanks for accepting my comments (or some of them at least) in the spirit they were intended. I do enjoy reading NFTB, and the last couple of issues have been good. 'Searchlight For Beginners' is also an informative read. Have you any plans to update it or produce a companion volume I wonder. I'm sure you have plenty of material, and it'd be good to read some new stuff. Myself, I'd particularly like to read more about 'Hope Not Hate' and Stop The BNP, both of which Searchlight control. It might be worth you talking to antifascists in Nottingham about the latter as I know there were a lot of shenanigans in the run up to the 2008 RWB (Notts Stop The BNP were SUPPOSEDLY not a Searchlight group.)

It's a shame that not everyone posting on this thread can respond so reasonably, and there are some unpleasant posts on both sides of the argument. I don't see why it's impossible for people to accept that there are legitimate reasons for opposing Freedom publishing this book, beyond sectarianism or working to an agenda formulated by Searchlight. If someone sent Larry a pro-Searchlight pamphlet to print/publish, it wouldn't be 'censorship' for him to decline, merely good sense. Freedom are not a general publisher of political books, they are an ANARCHIST publisher, and this is entirely new ground for them. While I'll be very interested in reading the Red Action version of AFA's history (and since the book begins in 1977, presumably Red Action's history), but I maintain that it is entirely inappropriate for Freedom to publish it. There are a range of left-wing publishers, which would be more suitable.

Reader's concillatory suggestion regarding the title is to be applauded as I am sure this alone is an issue for some genuine posters, and it OUGHT to have been one for Freedom.

I suspect it may be a long time since the word 'junior' was used in relation to Martin Wright! Not someone I like either, but I wasn't aware Red Action had a problem with him. Nor he with them. Perhaps the book will be illuminating in this respect.

This isn't a tantrum, sectarianism, nor is it based on any antipathy towards Red Action, but I maintain that they really should publish the book themselves. Many small Anarchist groups publish their own books and pamphlets, and use others to distribute them.

Lastly, nobody can demand that posters post less viciously, but they might bear in mind that the style and content of their posts reflects not only on the poster, but on the position they are advancing. Without wanting to excuse the nastier Anarchist posts on here (which may well have an agenda beyond what seems apparent), some of the recent Red Action posts reinforce the oft-heard accusation that they view Anarchists (and other antifascists) with a degree of contempt. Threatening language does not help either. I would hope that if this post elicits any responses at all, their content will be as reasonable as Larry O'Hara's.

No Pasaran!

The Squeaky Wheel Gets The Oil...

02.06.2010 16:19

What is it about the loudest squealers on this thread? You claim to be the ‘authentic’ political activists but refuse to accept any power or responsibility for yourself or your action (or inaction). If Red Action hadn’t this… if the Left hadn’t that, if I had some money and photos… if everyone else could only be like me… if yer aunt had balls she’d be your uncle.

My brother oftens states boldly (when so pissed he is struggling with walking and talking)… “It’s not me our kid… it’s the rest of the world”. At least he is joking!

Why would you choose to hand the power to your avowed enemies? Nothing is ever your fault… so changing anything is NEVER your responsibility. That’s handy, and a total abdication of your personal responsibility to take action – either for yourself or for your Class.

We would have written a book ourselves… only… It’s because of RA, it’s because of new labour, it’s the tories, it’s Class War, it’s the Old Bill, it’s the Stalinists, it’s indymedia, it’s the socialists, it’s anybody – but it 100%... never… ever… is it because of us! ‘Wasn’t me sir, a big boy did it and ran away’. Your posts read like a Charlie and Lola book.

Having adfvised a few screamers on here to write their own book... here’s an excerpt from the one I have now decided to write. Anyone recognise themselves?

One of the things that really used to annoy the fuck out of my activist Anarchist friends and comrades (mostly DAM aligned) was not just this childish shirking and sulking by ‘dilettante lifestyle-anarchists’ (DLA’s) – but the fact that they often got lumped in with these chancers, simply because they both called themselves anarchists. Here’s an example...

Many times we successfully mobbed up and managed to travel across Central London undetected (something impossible since the advent of mass CCTV). Now most of us would regularly Jib the Tube but on anti-fascist ‘duty’ we all bought Travelcards so as not to draw the attention of either the Transport Police or the normal Plod.

This ‘operational imperative’ stuck in the craw of many people (who never generally paid fares on a point of principle) but there was no arguing against the logic of being able to move around freely and ‘under the radar’. I used to laugh at the pained expression on the faces of unrepentant, serial ‘jibbers’ as they face the harrowing proposition of spending £3 on a Travelcard.

Except some of the DLA’s just couldn’t bring themselves to do it, could they? This would be conforming, wouldn’t it? And that was something these fiercely individual people (who all looked the same to me) simply could not bring themselves to do. So they would try to mooch through in the middle of the mob and if challenged by LT staff would shout really helpful, intelligent and brave things like ‘We don’t pay… We’re Anarchists!’ Then off they would stomp in all their puffed-up glory, while Tube workers (obviously the lap-dogs of the fascist state) would think ‘fuck you pal’ and get on the blower to the Transport cops.

One radio conversation later and we would have a police escort that we might spend the rest of the day trying to shake. I would smile sweetly at the DAM lads and ask ‘Are they with youse’ whilst they muttered darkly. They couldn’t be reasoned with. Even if you threatened the cunts they would run off squealing about fascist Stalinists trying to make them conform – or if it was the DAM lads who intervened, it meant that the DAM had caught Stalin-itis by mixing with Reds.

Like I said… dilettantes. Nice to see there are so many still around.

The only thing they were good for was the fact that they collected nickings like a pervert collects knickers. In any confrontation… when the Plod arrived… this mob jumped around, shouting and drawing attention to themselves, til they got lifted (all the time shouting about ‘police brutality’). This made it very simple for other people to do the business and walk away unnoticed and undisturbed. Many’s a day we were thankful of the distraction these peacocks provided.

They wore their arrests like badges of honour… (here’s the one I got in Trafalgar Square… Bow Street? Now there was a nick… Never liked the catering at Shoreditch…). It meant they had safely ‘done their bit’ . We cursed our arrests… because they took us out of the affray for the day… and meant our comrades might come unstuck because of dwindling numbers.

LiamO

@ No Pasaran (re: 'Lux')

02.06.2010 18:36

Red Action has no problem with Martin Wright (aka Lux) but as the author of some of the earliest and nastiest posts in this thread Mr Wright obviously has a problem with Red Action...

I can't remember a single mention of the sorry bag of bones in the book.

I don't know whether that will please or upset him.

He is not that important, and certainly never volunteered for any kind of responsibility within AFA, despite his own sense of puffed-up self-importance as displayed in his pitiable memoir "Anti-Fascist".

What he lent his considerably lightweight arguments to here was the calculated interventions of Searchlight operatives like Tilzley and Bowman.

It's a bit late now - 100 posts too late in fact - for you to intervene as the anarchist 'voice of reason' No Pasaran... Any contempt for anarchism that was held has been compounded by the way that certain people have allowed themselves to be duped by Searchlight and who have added their own smears and lies for good measure.

Anyone who has argued their political point of view here has been answered in a political way by Red Action; no threats, no lies, no smears, no slander.

As for the rest... fuck 'em.

Reader

Liam O

02.06.2010 18:51

You are a great example of why Freedom would be total idiots to publish this book. People on this thread have been too kind to you. You are a sad worthless tosser. When was the last time you chinned a fascist, you stupid fuck? Anarchists are only having to put up with you cunts because of one fucking idiot at Freedom. Dean, you are a fucking moron.

Antifascist activist

People With Problems

02.06.2010 21:23

@ No Pasaran, re: "Lux"

Red Action has no problem with Martin Wright (aka Lux) but as the author of some of the earliest and nastiest posts in this thread Mr Wright obviously has a problem with Red Action...

I can't remember a single mention of the sorry bag of bones in the book.

I don't know whether that will please or upset him.

Despite his own sense of puffed-up self-importance as displayed in his pitiable memoir "Anti-Fascist", he was never a major player or person that took any responsibility within AFA.

What he lent his considerably lightweight arguments to here was the calculated interventions of Searchlight operatives like Tilzley and Bowman.

It's a bit late now - 100 posts too late in fact - for you to intervene as the anarchist 'voice of reason' No Pasaran... Any contempt for anarchism that was held may have already been been compounded by the way that certain people have allowed themselves to be duped by Searchlight and who have enthusiastically added their own smears and lies for good measure.

Anyone who has argued their political point of view here has been answered in a political way by Red Action; no threats, no lies, no smears, no slander.

As for the rest... fuck 'em.

Reader

Interesting...

02.06.2010 22:12

1) If what Liam O says about life style anarchists operationally is true, most interesting. And certainly not deserving the puerile abuse he got.

2) I am most interested in further info on Stop the BNP/Hope Not Hate shenanigans on the ground--those with genuine information contact me via the email here or on the borderland website.

3) As it happens, the current issue of Notes From the Borderland (8) has a 12 page article on the BNP, included in which is 4 page critique of Hope Not Hate & 1 page on UAF compiled, how shall I put it, with some 'inside assistance'...We can always do with more!

Larry O'Hara
mail e-mail: drlarryohara@yahoo.co.uk
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

correction

02.06.2010 22:29

meant to say NFB issue 9, not 8! see

http://www.borderland.co.uk/preview_003.htm

Larry O'Hara
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

Puffed Up Personality Disorder

03.06.2010 01:52

In answer to No Pasaran...

Red Action has no problem with Martin Wright (aka Lux) but as the author of some of the earliest and nastiest posts in this thread Mr Wright obviously has some kind of problem with Red Action.

I can't remember a single mention of the sorry bag of bones in the book.

I don't know whether that will please or upset him.

Despite his own puffed-up sense of self-importance, as displayed in his pitiable memoir "Anti-Fascist", he was never a 'player' or at the centre of things in AFA. Maybe that will be a surprise to those young anarchists who now regard him as some kind of folk hero?

His mistake here has been to lend his considerably lightweight arguments to the calculated interventions of Searchlight operatives like Tilzley and Bowman.

It's a bit late now - 100 posts too late in fact - for you to intervene as the anarchist 'voice of reason' No Pasaran...

Any perceived ideological 'contempt for anarchism' (but not all anarchists) that might be held by Red Action may have been compounded by the fact that certain people have been willingly duped by Searchlight and have added their own smears and lies to this thread for good measure.

Anyone who has argued their political point of view here has been answered in a political way by Red Action; no threats, no lies, no smears, no slander... just political debate.

I don't think it's too much to ask for the same in return.

Cue more abusive 'fuck off' posts.

Funny how those type of posts make it on to this page, but other reasonable posters who I know have tried to intervene here have had their posts pulled.

Inside job, Indymedia?

Reader

If the Cap Fits...

03.06.2010 04:22

“Antifascist activist”
So let’s get this straight… my post is justification enough to proscribe a book by my erstwhile comrades?

So you… who accept no responsibility for… any thing… any body…any time… want to spitefully punish a defunct (but proud) political organisation… because of the words of somebody they ceased to have responsibility for… contact with… or influence over… so long ago? Ve-wee wevolutiona-wee dear boy.

Maybe you could take a few lessons in grown-up talk and joined-up thinking from ‘No Pasaran’.

I have no idea why my post offended you – unless of course it was a little too close to the truth? My words are not anti-anarchist… they are anti-dilettante, anti-poseur. I know many of my old comrades (socialists, communists, anarchists, punks, skinheads and all shades in between) will have been laughing their cocks off in recognition of the people I described.

“IM Reader”… Ho ho ho. I think you’ve dropped your dolly. What a sparkling wit you are. Careful now, you’ll cut yourself on that razor sharp wit and repartee of yours. Any more of that young man, and I will have to waddle over to you and sit on you til you surrender.
Between the thin skin, the spitting of the dummies and the foot-stamping, the pair of you silly billies wouldn’t last pissing time in a building site canteen.

Here’s another one… hot off the presses… from the book… (my one, not BTF)

One boiling hot August day, I stood outside a pub at Angel tube. Violence was on the cards later as the fash had a big mob out, but for now people were just milling about and having a pint.

It was seriously steamy weather-wise and I remarked to one of my DAM colleagues “Who’d be a Crusty on a day like that”

“How d’you mean” he replied

“Well all that charging about dressed from head-to-toe in black, with a big leather jacket and all that” I said

He looked at the assembled motley crew outside, sipped his pint and uttered these immortal words (that even I might have baulked at) “Never mind being one of ‘em… who’d wanna be stood next to one of the cunts”

I nearly choked laughing - as did the rest of his mob (Anarchists to a man).

A little bit cruel perhaps… but life at the sharp end of any political struggle will encourage a little dark humour… the more dangerous the times… the darker the humour… don’t suppose ye have much call for gallows humour… standing behind police lines waving lollipops… these days… do you?

By the way, ‘IM Reader’ where are you from? I only ask because I am not aware of any city in Britain where the word ‘soused’ is a common one. Or did you pick it up on the playing fields of Eton, Algernon?

Love to stay and chat but I’ve got a book to write… know any good publishers?

Wishing you all the love, happiness and contentment you obviously could do with. I sincerely hope you find serenity and inner-peace before you turn from angry young men into bitter old bastards. And remember what Richard Bandler says… ‘It’s never too late to have a happy childhood’.

LiamO

O Madam Liam

03.06.2010 09:18

Please give us the benefit of your special powers and explain which posts are by Tilzey, Bowman, and Wright. This is better than a seance.

Dave Hann

Nick Moss/Stone

03.06.2010 11:45

Nick Moss/Stone/S DID use to tell that same crustie story. It is possible though that he nicked it or it's one that has done the rounds. The same thing might also have been said more than once (to be fair to the crusties though, at least they did come out, and some are still active now.) Last I heard of pathological liar Moss/Stone, he was passing himself off as an Irish Republican and calling himself Paul Maguire. He did write better than Liam does though. BTW Liam, congratulations on finding a building site with such good internet access!

Anarchist

Naming Names...

03.06.2010 16:02

I think it would be fair to say that all organisations, anarchist and left, who take a physical force approach to fighting fascism will attract the attentions of the state. In that respect Red Action and Anarchists are no different, we can all rhyme off the names of wrong 'uns and suspected touts in our respective organisations, but what purpose will that serve here?

There are a number of anarchists that aroused supicion as well, as there were Red Action members and associates who performed a role at certain points, but whose subsequent behaviour raised serious questions. Indeed, the book explores some of these points.

I make an exception for wretches like Bowman and Tlzley, however, because we should all be aware of the M.O. of these state-sponsored goons. Look at the posts in the first half of this thread and you can see the outline of the Searchlight method which has been to name names, make unfounded allegations and generally spread disinformation.

Their purpose? To exploit the division and resentment that exist between Anarchists and Red Action.

Note that they have hardly intervened since, only here and there to fan the flames when they feel it necessary. No doubt they are preparing themselves for Round 2 when the book is published, taking some satisfaction from their work here.

A job well done boys, GG will be proud of you.

Reader

Naming names

03.06.2010 19:50

I like the way it's ok to name names n not others! Too young for AFA. Bowman's a strange one, a lot of folk never knew what to make of him. Seemed more wierd than wromg tho n had a certain respect from some. He used to write for Freedom now n again. Nowt like freinds falling out for back-stabbing. Seems like this books gonna be a right slag-fest! I'd be lieing if I said I werent interested but sounds a bit scuzzz

LUFC

What a great....

03.06.2010 21:46

..advert for those wishing to involve themselves in any future anti-fascist struggle this thread has become. We all know too well the failings of the Anal, Uaf etc but all this bitching and backstabbing proves is that some of those that were involved at the sharp end of things were and still are no better when it comes to solidarity while working for a common cause. As well as that, the fascists and the state must be laughing their bloody heads off!

As a young activist I worked alongside Anarchists, RA members and socialist party members among others. Myself and a few others at the time had nothing but admiration and respect for those older bods at the time as their approach to militant anti-fascism was a education to say the least. What we learnt from them in terms of security and organizing was invaluable. There was always going to be some conflict on some issues but on the whole people or groups differences were put aside to work toward a common goal against a common enemy.

I have read the book and to be fair in my opinion it does seem to be a RA account of the times so perhaps the word 'authorised' does feel a little contentious. I can also see why some may have a problem with freedom being the publishers but does it really have to descend into a slagging match when surely there is a simple solution to solving these issues without people taking lumps out of each other.

The situation now is depressing. With threats and abuse from certain people on here. Why dont we all grow up a bit and address the fact that fascism is without doubt a very real threat again. It never really went away did it? Unity is needed now more than ever but I wont hold my breath on that one. As for a Anarchist take on the history of AFA, I for one would enjoy reading it as I did BTF.

ISDs mechanic

Searchlight

04.06.2010 07:46

If this book contains a full exposure of Searchlight's dirty dealings in afa, that alone will make an interesting read. Having said that i don't see why Freedom are publishing it not red action or one of the Marxist/left-wing publishers. That is NOT sectarianism.

Jim W

What next?

04.06.2010 09:07

What next for Freedom Press I wonder? Perhaps a Stalinist history of the Spanish Civil War, championing the International Brigades and denigrating anarchists? Or maybe a Marxist-written biography of Nestor Makhno, in which all the old lies are repeated. No wonder Red Action view anarchists with barely disguised contempt. The stupidity of the current Freedom Collective does not excuse an act of gross treachery.

@narchist

What did you do in the war Grandad?

04.06.2010 12:26

Never mind the bollocks about a book, what about some tales from those who are slagging it off?

You have a lot to say about who is not qualified to talk on the subject, what about yourselves, or did Red Action also prevent you from battering Nazis?

Out with it.

All Ears

Seems to me...

04.06.2010 13:54

That it's not whether Red Action are QUALIFIED to tell the story of AFA which is in doubt, but whether they have the HONESTY to tell it ACCURATELY. And whether those at Freedom would know the difference.

Tara

Memoirs are for the retired

04.06.2010 17:56

There are still plenty of ex AFA activists still very active. What the fuck have Red Action done in the past 10 years APART from writing their memoirs? Loads of ex AFA comrades at the Lewisham anniversary a few years back. Didn't see any Red Action members there though, and it's been a long time since any of you came out on any antifascist stuff boys. To be fair, most of you weren't shy of bottle in the past, so where did it go? Are you really pianning to live off AFA's laurels forever?

AFA and still active

The Final Word?

04.06.2010 19:04

As it happens RA are uniquely qualified to write the history of AFA since you ask Tara. Afterall they helped found the organisation in 1985 and when that top down model failed, re-launched it on a more democratic and militant basis in 1989.

But it is equally important to understand that this book is not about RA. Nor is it about RA in AFA. It is story of AFA itself. With the emphasis always on the bigger political picture. So how the book has come to be caricatured as 'anti-anarchist' is utterly bonkers as the Direct Action Movement were consistently RA's strongest allies throughout. There is no question about that. But as we have already seen, that means for some contrubutors, the DAM'a credentials must also be called into question, as of course must those of the Freedom Press collective. Where does it end?

To avoid such confusion, as to where the organisation actually stood it was AFA I believe who coined the term 'militant anti-fascism' and over the years increasingly defined what that meant when applied to an evolving political situation.

Historicaly AFA was unique. It lasted far longer than either the 43 Group or the ANL Mark 1, who peaked and ebbed in fairly short time. Fighting 'a long war' meant there had to be substantial organisation adjustments (the emergence of the Fighting Talk magazine for one) and operationally the need adapt to the style and modus operandi of differing type of fascist organisations, from the conventional NF/BNP, to the Neo-Nazi B&H, and the quasi - paramilitary C18.

Physical force was a critical component but the approach had to be more sophisticated than that. By the early 1990's 'a three-cornered fight' was how AFA would increasingly describe the struggle. That was AFA against the Fascists but also AFA against the State and of course vice a versa.

This again was a radical departure from the instincts of the ANL mark 1, the 62 Group and the 43 Group.

So when RA are denounced as 'total scum', presumably putting them on par with the likes of C18 and so on, it is not hard to see what corner the contributor is fighting out of.

As for questions about its veracity: why would those telling the AFA story lie - the truth, as I'm sure you'll agree if you ever get around to reading the book, is incredible enough.

JR

Further comment

05.06.2010 10:11

Good post JR. I for one would certainly not underestimate the influence RA had on, and within, AFA. However, from what I recall RA members were concentrated in 3 groups - London, Manchester, and Glasgow. I understand that this is reflected in the book, not least since there does not appear to have been any attempt to consult outside RA. It is therefore very much RA's history of AFA, something which ought to be reflected in the title..

John C

So proud of this book...

07.06.2010 23:01

...that they're not even putting their name to it.

Sceptic

The truth is out there

08.06.2010 00:10

Will the real AFA please stand up?
The book will be an attack against te real AFA from alcoholic losers. The so called author was known for his relationship with his housemate ( a dog ) while many of his supporters are now bar stool historians. Will the truth about the "missing documents" which the cops found from a "friendly" journalist or the criminal acts which suddenly became "political acts" ever see the light of day.
Why not tell the truth?

Leon Strauss

Dunno about the dog but...

08.06.2010 09:52

This will very much be 'th truth' of Gary O'Shea and Red Action. It will everything that makes them look and leave out everything that doesn't. And it will undermine militant antifascism today by pushing the failed electoralism of the IWCA, for which RA hijacked AFA.

Sceptic

Almost amusing...

08.06.2010 10:43

the continued sniping by trolls on this thread is almost (but nor quite) amusing.

1) The book will obviously be Red Action's take on AFA, plus the views of other AFA members who sympathised with them, and comments on those who didn't.

2) Certainly, the book will presumably contain a defence towards the end of the IWCA perspective--why shouldn't it?

3) The most important aspects of the book for me will be two-fold
a) how much it reveals about spook/Searchlight infiltration/suborning of AFA, especially in Yorkshire. And maybe Stella Rimington's daughter will get a mention, plus an early morning visit...
b) the extent to which it kicks off a debate about how best to counter the BNP today.

The trolls pretend to be most concerned about 1 & 2 above, but what they fear is 3a, and want to prevent most is 3b. Thankfully, they won't succeed.

Larry O'Hara
mail e-mail: drlarryohara@yahoo.co.uk
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

The struggle against fascism

08.06.2010 10:47

Begins with the struggle against bolshevism. Sounds to me like Freedom ought to be reading a few more books themselves. Or they've been infiltrated.

anon

Ten Fucking Grand!!

08.06.2010 15:54

Just been told this book is costing Freedom ten fucking Grand to publish. How about Red Action pay for their side of the 'debate' and Anarchists pay for ours? Larry O'Hara is just a bitter who'll side with anyone (even fascists) to score points against sad loser Paul Bowman. Why can't the two of them just sort it out between themselves?

No more begging bowl Freedom

Larry O'Hara's singular distinction

08.06.2010 17:46

He is the only person ever to have received a lifetime ban from Bradford ! In !2 Club

Joe Owens' lapdog

See what I mean?

08.06.2010 18:03

Talk of trolls, and one pops up, right on cue.

1) That this book will cost Freedom money to publish I do not doubt--so let us hope it sells widely.

2) Bowman was one of at least three (according to Red Action) Leeds AFA Organisers run by Searchlight--hence my problem is not with him personally, but those who corrupted the organisation in Yorkshire.

3) "siding with fascists"--no evidence given of course, but then, there is none. Nor does the troll who wrote this believe there is either...

and so on...

Larry O'Hara
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

I love it!!

08.06.2010 18:22

A "lifetime ban from the Bradford 1 in 12 club"--a place I have never visited, not even attempted to! Now that really is funny! As Groucho Marx might have said, why visit a club that has banned me as a member...

Seriously children (and trolls of all ages), could the lapdog be a bit miffed at this article from NFB, now online, if you scroll down the page?

http://www.borderland.co.uk/preview_007.htm

If so, I am gratified the truth still has the power to hurt liars, even after so many years. Hence, in part, the anticipation felt on all sides about the AFA book. Remember??

Larry O'Hara
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

Fascist Toady

08.06.2010 18:47

How about your relationship with ex Griffin bodyguard Joe Owens Larry? Are you denying ones exists? Even Owens isn't that brazen. You are (almost) as bad as Searchlies playing off both sides for your own ends. What about the 1 in 12, are they all working for Gable too?!

Joe Owens' Lapdog

Stalin lives?

08.06.2010 19:03

A comment claiming I was banned from the 1 in 12 Club was put on this thread--I responded, and gave a link to an article that might explain why I was banned (if indeed I was!). That response seems to have vanished--are Gerry or Nick moonlighting as moderators here?

once again

http://www.borderland.co.uk/preview_007.htm

Larry O'Hara
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

Charming...

08.06.2010 19:18

Fascist Toady/Lapdog. I can confirm

1) I am heterosexual, if that helps.

2) I speak to, and get information from, a wide variety of people, including anti-fascists operating "deep under cover" inside the Searchlight organisation.

3) I have no opinion at all on the 1 in 12 Club, and what they may, or may not, be up to currently. Never been there,

4) I am interested in what the AFA book has to say about Yorkshire--but unlike you, I am not fearful about what that might be.

Now, troll off back to your kennel.

Larry O'Hara
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

TEN FUCKIN QUID?!!!

08.06.2010 19:31

The book is costing TEN FUCKIN QUID?!? What an outrage!

Sorry to burst your bubble but from what I hear, it won't actually be costing Freedom Press a Red Cent (pun intended). Might even generate enough money to fund the 'alternative AFA' book some of the 'outraged of Tunbridge Wells'-types are now chomping at the bit to write - Assuming of course they can find more than two of them who can actually agree on anything!

Apart from your post sounding like a 'Top Tip' from Viz, where would you get such extravagant figures? Your point is as hilarious as the one way back on this thread berating FP for not investing their 'Capital' (yes, I believe that is the word used) on 'Anarchist books'.

Red Action as Bolsheviks - now that's a good 'un! I was around for many years and heard them called many things, especially by Lefties who usually called them either 'boot-boys' or (ironically enough) 'anarchists'.

The Russian Bolsheviks would probably have shot the lot of them, before they ever got round to you lot (On the basis that they tended to kill their dangerous enemies first). I would suggest that the Tin-Pot Bolshies of the british Left would have been similarly inclined if they had any balls - but they didn't did they?

Able to count above ten without taking me socks off

Sounds like a good deal for red action

08.06.2010 19:49

They get their book published (which no other publisher would touch.) They get to promote themselves and the IWCA, and settle a few old scores. They get @ 10% of the cover price of each book sold. And what exactly do the @s get? A huge debt, incurred undermining their comrades and a reputation as gullible idiots. Nice one!

Puzzled of Hackney

Larry O'Hara and Joe Owens

08.06.2010 20:33

And you have friendly and regular contact with Joe Owens don't you Larry?

Joe Owens' lapdog

£10,000

08.06.2010 20:53

Current plan is to print 2,000 copies. Total cost £10,000. Cover price tba, but probably @ £15.

Able To Count

£10,000

08.06.2010 20:55

Current plan is to print 2,000 copies. Total cost £10,000. Cover price tba, but probably @ £15.

Able To Count

Attention Laptoad!

08.06.2010 21:09

See comment 144 by me above, main title 'Charming', point 2.

Thank you--now go and pee on a lamp-post in Herent's Drive.

Larry O'Hara
mail e-mail: drlarryohara@yahoo.co.uk
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

Searchlight operatives in Yorkshire

08.06.2010 21:30

I can't see why Feebledom are publishing this - other than that they are profoundly stupid. Nonetheless I will be very interested to read what the author has to say about Searchlight, and in particular about it's operatives in Yorkshire - Mazaro, Bowman, who else? I still harbour misgivings about whether or not Searchlight were the real reason RA responded in the way they did to the Yorkshire situation, but we'll see...Hope RA at least manage to differentiate between Searchlight's operatives and the AFA rank and file.

AFA older boy

Asking again

08.06.2010 21:43

So Larry, would it be correct to say you have regular and friendly contact with Liverpool fascist Joe Owens (not an anti-fascist and not in 'deep cover' in the Searchlight camp? A Yes or No answer will do.

Joe Owens' lapdog

Further

08.06.2010 21:58

And would it also be correct to say that the two of you (Larry O'Hara and Joe Owens) 'share information'?

Joe Owens' lapdog

Must do better

08.06.2010 23:13

Really, you are a persistent troll. Let me get this right. You, a coward hiding behind anonymity, expect me to answer in as much detail as you request, a question concerning where/who I get information from. Characteristic of the troll, you have even invented a quotation 'share information', which you expect me to respond to.

I have already answered any question concerning my varied information sources in post 144 point 2a. You really are taking the piss if you think I am going to say any more than that. Period.

I refuse to be goaded by an anoymous troll into making infelicitous or indeed untrue comments. I have been and remain, a life-long anti-fascist, sympathetic to the original AFA perspective, which was what this thread was about before you tried to distract the attention of those following it.

Go back and shit on that lamp-post in Herent's Drive this time.

Larry O'Hara
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

Larry some questions

09.06.2010 06:39

What's always puzzled me over the years Larry is what you actually do with all the inside info you have on fascists/right wingers ? Now I know you write borderlands but as an anti fascist do you pass on your intel to those who are actually getting there hands dirty ? , being an expert is all fine and dandy in academia but Why as an anti fascist have you never as I can tell worked as intel for say the likes of class war or antifa ? I know that your mates with one of there organisers , Do you realsie that Red Action groups were in contact with searchlight as long as the likes of Leeds group in AFA,just that it wasnt as public , saying something along the lines of '' we're politically experienced to deal with the likes of Gable '' was one such anecdote , Tilzey was in touch with RA mmbers in manchester long after they fell out....Is your venom for Paul Bowman fuelled by in your own words ''near lynching '' at the anarchist bookfair , please don't abuse me Larry as I'm genuinley curious about your position

Still active

1 in 12 Club

09.06.2010 07:37

Larry O'Hara was banned for life from the 1 in 12 Club well over a decade ago, and he was informed about the ban at the time. For several years his photo was even displayed in the club so that he could be readily identified by members. It is disingenuous of him to pretend he is unaware of the ban.

1 in 12er

Able To Count (but not do big sums apparently)

09.06.2010 08:59

Dear 'Able to count',

2000 books = £10K? So that's a cost of £5 each? Where are they printing them, Harrods? You can have SINGLE (ie one copy at a time) books printed by Lulu.com for less than £5 - never mind 2000.

According to my mate, who has self-published many successful books, at 2000 copies you should be able to get 'unit cost' down to between 60 pence and one pound. Allowing for the fact that this book will probably have a much higher page count than average (for arguments sake, say double?) they still come in below £2 each. (Outlay £4K)

Even if they went super deluxe, white semi-glossy paper, large print, embossed cover etc, they'd still be less than £2.50. (Outlay £5K)

You have quoted a retail price of about £15.

Even if they all sell at only £10, that means a return of £20K on a 5K outlay. If (as your Hackney-based and somewhat hackneyed buddy suggests) the Authors get 10% of the cover price (in this case £1) that ups the outlay to 7K leaving 13K for FP.

How many Anarchist Books, pamphlets, papers, leaflets etc can FP print with that money?

Able to count to ten above ten without taking me socks off

Pedantic perhaps...

09.06.2010 09:47

1) I really care little if I was/am banned from the 1 in 12 Club--but I do care that I was never informed of this alleged ban, or the reasons for it. The last correspondence between myself and the 1 in 12 Club was a recorded delivery letter from me, to them, dated 16/6/99, to which (like my letter to them of 22/11/98) I never got a reply. There is disingenuousness here--but not from me. An account of my fruitless correspondence with them is contained in Notes From the Borderland issue 3 [2000] p.34.

2) Having had one contributor asking me to 'confirm or deny' I share intelligence with fascists, up pops somebody else asking me to state whether I shared/share intelligence with people on the Left. It is not, and never will be, my practice to confirm/deny such allegations, except insofar as they are blatantly illogical (where they are so). Suffice to say, many fascists believe I am not just an intelligence officer for Antifa/Class War etc but far more. Google 'Anti-Fascist researcher Larry O'Hara, Class War and Antifa' to find out what they think.

Finally, interesting as the attempts to hijack the the thread are, this thread is not about me, but the AFA book some want suppressed. Remember? Do those include the 1 in 12 Club? I really do not know, but am keen to find out...

Larry O'Hara
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

Dear Maths Genius

09.06.2010 13:08

In estimating the cost of a book it helps to know how BIG it is - in this case 600 pages. There will not be a 'return' of £10 or £15 per book, because that is the RETAIL price. The average wholesale return is unlikely to be even half the retail figure. You then need to factor in things like advertizing, transport, storage, 'wastage', depreciation, damage, and author payments, as well as interest payments on loan stock. Not to mention the fact that FP will probably have this book on their hands for years, and possibly have to sell them at a reduced price. I imagine that the first 100 or so copies will reasonably quickly, but after that I think FP will find they have a very expensive turkey on their hands. Why don't you get your mate to get in touch with Red Action, then HE can publish their book?

I can count

Larry O'Hara and Joe Owens

09.06.2010 13:26

Larry O’Hara, you can only be said to be an ‘anti-fascist’, in the sense that, like the vast majority of people, you are not a fascist. You have never taken part in any form of anti-fascist action, and despite christening yourself ‘Britain’s leading anti-fascist researcher’, you have never shared any of the information supposedly gleaned with anti-fascist organisations (except for the drivel you publish in ‘Notes From The Borderland’), indeed you have made a great deal of the ‘virtue’ of not doing so. Despite your lack of any real involvement in anti-fascism, it has not stopped you regularly meddling in anti-fascist affairs, and in your constant thirst for gossip you have been prepared to lay down with dogs like fascist (and fellow Scouser) Joe Owens.

Owens is not the first fascist you have hob-nobbed with, nor will he be the last. Those reading this thread will note that you have had every opportunity to deny your relationship with him, something you have (wisely) declined to do. You have also declined to admit it, and to try and justify it if you can. At least since your sickeningly fawning review of his fantasy-filled ‘book’ in NFTB (a draft copy of which he sent you personally, presumably at your request), you have had regular, friendly contact. Owens may have started to lose the plot recently, but he is by no means an idiot, or someone you could simply ‘milk’ for information. Owens, who has regularly defended you on fascist internet forums, readily admits that you ‘share information’ and that you mutually assist each other, so what have you been saying Larry? You have neither the intelligence nor the street ‘nouse’ not to gossip, indeed that is ALL you ever do, and you have the arrogance to think yourself smarter than Owens. If he is giving you information, he is not giving it away for nothing. This shows once again that you are a complete liability and should not be trusted one iota.

Your interest in the Red Action/AFA book is similar to your interest in Joe Owens’ laughable memoirs, and based entirely on a voyeuristic wish to press your nose against the window of a movement you were never actually part of. Since you are not (so far as I know) an anarchist, you would not care a jot about the possibility of bankrupting an anarchist publisher, and the certainty that their reputation will be damaged, along with that of a whole movement. You could of course ask Red Action for a copy of the book, but since you have poked your nose into their business too many times in the past, they are likely to give you short shrift.

As for my being an ‘anonymous coward’ Larry (one of your stock responses), unlike you I have more to lose than my ego. I am anonymous because I do not trust you; because you are friendly with fascists and because you have a big mouth. Furthermore, because unlike you, I AM active as an anti-fascist. You are simply a coward with a name, and someone whose relationship to anti-fascism over the years has been meddlesome, divisive, and parasitic. Frankly, you are not much better than ‘Searchlight’.

Joe Owens' lapdog (Not!)

Another Larry O'Hara 'conspiracy' in the making!

09.06.2010 13:33

Larry O'Hara: "A comment claiming I was banned from the 1 in 12 Club was put on this thread--I responded, and gave a link to an article that might explain why I was banned (if indeed I was!). That response seems to have vanished--are Gerry or Nick moonlighting as moderators here?"

And it has about as much basis as his usual shit!

Conspiraloon

Par for the course

09.06.2010 14:29

I note the anonymous coward above makes lot of serious allegations, with no evidence, and then draws inferences from the fact I am not willing to answer questions put to me by them. Those viewing this thread can draw inferences as to the veracity of the numerous lies/claims made this anonymous interrogator.

About my review of Joe Owens' book, lies can be uttered about it because it is not yet on-line. When it is, it will be seen (and already has by any who have read it in Notes From the Borderland issue 8) just how wide of the mark this disinformer actually is.

Further note how this creature (and Conspiraloon below)

1) Has nothing to say about the content of the AFA book

2) Contributes nothing to understanding of past events, especially in Yorkshire

3) Has no comment on the fact that the likes of the BPP see me as an AntiFa/Class War controller, never mind intelligence officer.

This anonymous coward not stating who he is enables him (or her) to evade answering any questions themselves--and in so doing ensures I'll not jump through their hoops either.

Larry O'Hara
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

'Suppressing' this book

09.06.2010 15:17

I cannot find one single post on this thread arguing for this book to be 'suppressed'. Once again, Larry O'Hara is shown to be a complete liar.

Not So Green

In defence of NFTB

09.06.2010 16:10

I always buy Notes From The Borderland (NFTB) when it appears and its invariably an interesting read. Some articles can be a bit long and convoluted, but less so than in earlier issues. I do find that you have to read between the lines a bit. Not because of untruthfulness, but there sometimes leaps of logic that can leave you scratching your head. I've also read a couple of Larry's pamphlets and reccomend them (but not the 'turoing on the heat' book).

One of many

MORE lies Larry?

09.06.2010 18:02

Shame on you Larry! As you very well know, Joe Owens' book (finally called 'Action! Race War to Door Wars!') has been available as a free downloadable PDF, and linked to from various right-wing sites, including the BPP's at one time. I will not sully IM by posting a direct link, but anyone who wishes to wade through the rubbish contained in it will find it by a simple Google search. I imagine that Larry's sycophantic review will be on the NFTB site. The BPP may indeed regard you as a communist and anti-fascist Larry, but then they think the world is run by Jewish lizards! Your pal Owens' inevitably comes to your defence, and I am sure a sure a search of the UK forum of the fascist Vanguard News Network site will reveal his posts. Maybe I'll even dig out a few quotes from him later :)

Larry O'Hara is Joe Owens' lapdog

Owens's book

09.06.2010 18:41

Owens couldn't get his book published so put it up on t'internet. It was all over the place. I downloaded it over a year ago. Its bullshit from start to end

Fuck Owens

Owens's book

09.06.2010 18:49

Owens couldn't get his book published so put it up on t'internet. It was all over the place. I downloaded it over a year ago. Its bullshit from start to end

Fuck Owens

Shameful indeed: but not on my part

09.06.2010 18:57

An example of the desperation that disinformers will go to is the post calling me shameful.

I stated the review of Owens' book is not yet on the borderland web-site, and I am called a shameful liar! Yet it certainly isn't--for pointing out which I am called a liar! Post the link to the exact page then, troll. Beggars belief but the anonymous troll (or group of trolls) posting garbage about me here are not into belief, but diversion, distraction and character assassination.

Certainly, Owens' book is on-line somewhere, as too are undoubtedly comments he may have made about me that are positive rather than negative--being neither an egotist or a disinformer, I don't collect them. So what?

I am responsible for my own actions, and writings--as is Owens. The anonymous trolls spewing abuse on here seek to evade responsibility for their own actions, and those they are posting on behalf of.

Scoff all you like about BPP belief in Lizards & such: would be bombers Martin Gilleard & Nathan Worrell were both BPP members. These nutzi fruitcakes have a proven propensity for targetted violence--hence the significance of myself being highlighted by the BPP. I can take it, as too I can abuse from anonymous cowardly scum like Laptroll on here. He obviously calculates if he repeats often enough garbage about me being Joe Owens lapdog, it will be believed. I am nobody's lapdog--and nor indeed is Owens. Is what irks laptroll the fact that Owens decided to write an unrepentant book, not claiming to have renounced his past beliefs, and did not allow Graham Johnson/Nick Lowles to write it for him?

Ultimately, Owens can answer for himself, as can I. But the anonymous trolls who infect this thread of course answer to nobody they will admit to.

And still, no serious criticism of either Searchlight, their proxies in Yorkshire, or elsewhere. The level of abuse being thrown on here is testament both to the fact state-sponsored scum still fear Notes From the Borderland magazine--thank you--but also quake at the thought of the AFA Book coming out. To claim, as one troll just did, that many posts on this thread are not intended to suppress the book is laughable--but on a par with similar contributions.

Larry O'Hara
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

This still going?

09.06.2010 20:16

Well this trainwreck of comments, bitching and so on has got me interested buying a copy.

I figure if its causing this much of a fuss already it will no doubt be a good read.

Thanks

Mildly amused

O'hara & the bnp

09.06.2010 20:16

According too various joe Owens posts on vnn Larry o'Hara is providing a lot of assistence to the bnp - by pointing out who there grasses are and that. If anyone doubts this all they have too do is do a search on vnn.

traitorwatch

As it happens...

09.06.2010 20:42

Rather than take the word of anonymous trolls, and fascists, I suggest those interested actually read my 12 page article on the BNP 2009 Electoral Success & Anti-Fascist strategy in Notes From the Borderland issue 9. You don't have to of course--but I think I'd rather be judged on what I have to say for myself than what others say. Else its the Moscow Show Trials: though there, at least the prosecutors had real names!

Larry O'Hara
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

So is it true Mr O,Hara?

09.06.2010 20:43

What your "friend" (his words) Joey Owens says? - that you would never support or condone physical attacks on fascists? We don't need your fucking permissiö. Owens also says you are no threat to the BNP O'Hara - now he is not wrong there is he?

What use are you as an antifascist?

No criticism of Searchlight?

09.06.2010 21:05

Come on Larry! Unlike most of the anti-fascist indymedia threads it's hard to see anyone DEFENDING Searchlight on here. Most anti-fascists have known for years that Searbhlight are scum and if you played a part in that good on yer. But a lie is a lie n looking at some of your recent posts on here its not surprising yer getting so much stick. Not much of an advert for yr zine are you?

Anti-Fascist

UNSUPRESSED

09.06.2010 21:17

LARRY O'HARA YOU ARE A PATHETIC LYING CLOWN!

Not so green

anonymous posts

09.06.2010 21:28

Please don't be goaded into signing posts by someone who is very clearly working to an agenda. Signing posts benefits only 2 groups of people - fascists and cops.

...

Goebbels lives?

09.06.2010 21:35

I suppose the reasoning behind the various trolls here is if they (whether singly or in packs) repeat enough crap. and throw enough mud, some will stick. As with the claim "A lie is a lie"--what lie? The only 'lie' I seem to have been accused of was the absurd one that my review of Owens' book is not online--when it isn't.

As for my views on the BNP & strategy to counter it--all that is in print, elsewhere, and I advise readers to judge mt by what I write, not what others say.

Larry O'Hara
mail e-mail: drlarryohara@yahoo.co.uk
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

Joe Owens book

09.06.2010 22:12

Joe Owens book is complete bollocks from beginning to end. Not just the political stuff, but the whole thing. Anyone who was brought up in a rough Liverpool area, anyone who has ever worked the doors, been on the graft, or been locked up will tell you that. Only a complete mug would think Owens book in any way credible. The bloke is a complete no mark, ask any Liverpool villain or doorman who Joe Owens is and they will say 'Who?' He is even reduced to nicking other people's stories (blokes he was on remand with) to fill his poxy book. I know almost all the blokes he mentions, some of them very well, and most would not give Owens the time of day. 'Nazi assassin' my arse This is a book for the sort of idiots who think Dave Courtney is a gangster and that Guy Ritchie is a cockney geezer.

Larger Lout

Unanswered questions

09.06.2010 22:33

Can't be bothered to read this whole thread, but from what I have read it seems Dr Larry O'Hara is dodging a lot of questions. Invoking Stalin and Goebells does you no favours Dr O'Hara. I'm sure you can read the outstanding questions as well as anyone, so why dö't you just answer them? Of course, a better answer to your detractors would be to post up some truely astonishing examples from your research into the fascists.

Reader

Forget the Owens book!

09.06.2010 22:54

O'Hara's review of the Joe Owens is nothing more than a minor detail, don't fixate on it. It is O'Hara's whole relationship with Owens that should be of concern to antifascists.

Antifascist Aktion

Love it!!

09.06.2010 23:08

So, a group of anonymous trolls engages in a flame war, heaping on the insults & the allegations, all united in their demand that I answer the questions posed by these anonymous cowards. For daring to question their anonymity, I am implicitly labelled either a fascist or a cop.

Despite the fact that I have answered the question on information sources (Post 144 2a) I am asked to confirm or deny my 'relationship' 'information-sharing' with (variously), AntiFa, Joe Owens, Class War--and this would no doubt just be the start. Next, the trolls would probably cut and paste a BNP membership list, and ask me to confirm or deny any relationship with those on it--next it'd be the entire BPP, who knows, maybe the Waffen SS?

As a serious investigative researcher, and life long anti-fascist, I am just not going to say any more than I said in Post 144, which is

"I speak to, and get information from, a wide variety of people, including anti-fascists operating 'deep under cover' inside the Searchlight organisation".

Obviously, those trolls, disinformers, lickspittles, assets fascists & cops out there don't like this answer. Well, tough, you can go and fuck yourselves, and each other. I am not going to be goaded by cowardly scum into revealing any specific information sources I do not intend to reveal. I owe you cowards nothing but contempt--and as a lifelong anti-fascist, who was present on the antifascist side in the late 70s at Leicester, Southall, Remembrance Day etc, when some of my Searchlight scum detractors were supporting/among the fascists, that contempt is deeply-held and unshakeable.

Larry O'Hara
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

Legitimate concerns

10.06.2010 07:36

Larry O'Hara's tirade against those he regards as trolls is perhaps underrtandable. However, it is also understandable that antifascists have legitimate concerns about his dealings with Joe Owens. These concerns are not addressed in the post Dr O'Hara refers to.

Mick Tighe

Just a thought

10.06.2010 08:51

Since Larry O'Hara insists on posting his name all over the internet in relation to anti-fascist affairs, it is hardly surprising that small fascist groups are aware of his existence. From what I have read on the 'searchlight spies' on VNN though, the only fascist who takes Mr O'Hara seriously is Joe Owens.

I'll keep my anonymity thanks

There is only ONE central question...

10.06.2010 09:38

Is Larry O'Hara swapping gossip with Liverpool nazi Joe Owens? For anyone who has read Owens's posts on VNN (and previously on Stormfront) there can be no question about the answer. The interests of genuine antifascists are not best served by O'Hara's interference anymore than they are by the state-paid scum at searchlight.

S.L.

GETTING BACK TO THE AFA BOOK!!!

10.06.2010 10:13

(Which is what this thread is supposed to be about boys!) I just can't believe that Freedom can be so stupid as to put TEN THOUSAND QUID into publishing this book about willy-waving! How many people have got the money to fork out on what many suspect will be a pack of lies anyway?

@

Forget it Larry

10.06.2010 20:15

Anyone who speaks with honesty here is considered fair game for these creeps.

Don't take the bait.

Searchlight Watch

O'Hara

11.06.2010 08:28

Larry O'Hara's attept to dodge serious and genuine allegations by lies and bluster is worthy of the scum at Searchlight. To anyone who monitors fascist internet forums the news of his unhealthy relationship with Joe Owens will hardly come as a surprise. O'Hara may just be an unwitting big-mouth unshy about sharing his theories with anyone, but he deserves to be rebuked over his relationship with Owens and the assistance he has provided to the BNP.

Antifascist

Handbags at dawn...

11.06.2010 09:23

I'm looking forward to actually reading the book and seeing for myself a perspective on those AFA years that should by all accounts be pretty well informed.

Certainly better informed that the parasitical drivel that Larry publishes.

The book should be a good earner for Freedom Press too.

Tall Chris
mail e-mail: tallchris99@hotmail.com

re:

11.06.2010 18:16

If I was a youngster looking into getting into left wing / anarchist politics and came across this thread I would run a mile.

Despite what many may say there are too many trolls making accusations that they seem to provide no evidence apart from hearsay.

The nonsense that has been put on here is the same kind of nonsense that happens on the far right sites. No wonder the British Working Class avoid us like the plague. In their shoes I would do the same!

May I suggest that you actually read the book then makke up your own minds to how good or bad it actually is. If you don't want to buy it then order it from your local libarary.

Reality Check

You just want to re-live your misspent youth Chris!

11.06.2010 18:37

Ay up mate! :) I don't know about Freedom making a mint on this, I think they could lose a lot of money on it. I know old soldiers like us will be interested, but sadly antifascism is not that fashionable these days, particularly the militant form. I can't see it selling for less than £15, which will mean that even many of those interested will borrow it from mates or order it from the library. Without the network of lefty bookshops that once existed distributing anything political is hard work these days too, and nobody has got a lot of spare cash at the moment. I don't know why Red Action don't do it as a Print on Demand. See you on the barricades anyway comrade!

Barn

Martin Wright...

12.06.2010 16:59

There is a lot of speculation and bollocks on this series of comments not least speculation as to who has made what comments. I spoke to Marting Wright aka Lux today and he categorically states he has made no comments here or elsewhere regarding the book, looks forward to reading it when it's out and wishes all involved all the best.

Tall Chris
mail e-mail: tallchris99@hotmail.com

Leave it out, Tall Chris

12.06.2010 17:59

Who do you think you are? coming on here poisonong the place with your political reasoning, your logic, rational thinking and obvious humanity.

Don't you know this thread is for sad and bitter people to vent their spleen? If more people were like you there might be some unity about the place. That kind of madness could lead to political action which, as we all know, is most definitely what we don't want, isn't it?

small boy in a big boy's body

Excuse me Mr O'Hara

14.06.2010 14:58

Owens himself says that he asked three people 'left wing people' to help with the spelling and grammar of his book.

You however went ahead and did it for the the moron because he has said so.

He also writes about you as his mate non-stop on the Vanguard Nonse Forum where he gets his little knickers in a twist and accuses the whole world of working for Searchlight. I dunno if he really is that mad or paranoid or whether he is now part of some plot cooked up by you to confuse the whole world.

You helped and aided a fascist. You call yourself an antifascist on the basis of having done nothing but spread lies about antifascists.

You are indeed banned from the Bradford club. I have not seen your picture of there but the legendary story of you hauling our fat arse down the stairs was told to me about three years ago while I was at a gig there.

Perhaps this is why you spend more time with Junkie Joe these days? I hear Liverpool is the only place you feel safe.

T A

Traitors

14.06.2010 16:23

O'Hara is not the only traiter. What about the slimeball at freedom who told red action they would print the book without asking any other collective members? Word is this traitor is someooe previously throwed out of London antifa for been untrustworthy.

Charlie B

Infamy, Infamy...

14.06.2010 18:29

... they've all got it in fer me!

What is all this nonsense about 'traitors' (or even 'traiters)? Do you define a traitor as anybody who you disagree with?

Why can't you debate anything without throwing around silly, emotive insults? It's fuckin embarrassing!

bored with all the theatricals

Pluto

14.06.2010 20:45

I can't coment on much of this thread but I would like to clarify Mr O'Hara's comments concerning his manuscript and Pluto Press.

It was rejected because it was a work of pure paranoid fiction and nothing else.

Thanks.

Tom

O'Hara's conspiracies

15.06.2010 08:58

O'Iara is a stupid shit-stirring bastard. It says everything about the bastard that he is now accusing indymedia of being part of a conspiracy (here and on urban75) because he is too thick to understand the 'mirror' system IM uses. What a moron.

JK

Freedom & the book

15.06.2010 10:44

This book hasn't even been published and it's already caused ructions at Freedom. Most of the collective can't be blamed for all the stupidity thats gone on tho, as just one person told Red Action Freedom would publish the book without consulting with anyone else. Some of the collective seem to have feelen a need to fall into line after that same 1 person announced the book and Red Action's publication date onto the website and elsewhere, but even in the death there has only been a 5 to 4 majority in favour of publishing. Which puts the other collective ,embers in a really shit position. I only know one ex Afa anarchist who's read the book and he was against Freedom publishing it (tho not against publication) This is only the start of a mess that could cause real problems for Freedom. If they had any sense they'd have told Red Action to publish it themselfs.

London Eye

Joe Owens

15.06.2010 11:02

There's a much better review (than Larry's O'Hara's) of Joe Owens book on the Kate Sharpley Library site.

Action! Race War to Door Wars [Review]
I had thought that anyone with any sense would take Joey Owens’ so-called autobiography (‘Action! Race War to Door Wars’) with a very large pinch of salt. However, some people who should know better have proved that this is not always the case. So, here’s a review of sorts.

First, I will admit that I haven’t a clue about Owens’ early life. I also don’t know a huge amount about his life as a bouncer (which is half the book). I’m not his mum, so that isn’t surprising. I do however, know a fair amount about the mid-1980s in Liverpool, so this is the bit I’ll concentrate on. I think it’s fair enough to judge Owens’ book on this period for two reasons: First, for any book, if one part is rubbish (or just plain dishonest), it doesn’t say much for the rest of the book. Second, the mid-1980s – the confrontations between the BNP and anti-fascists – is why Owens says he is writing the book (apparently in response to the book ‘No Retreat’ by two Manchester anti-fascists). So, here’s why I wouldn’t spend any money on this (I’ve looked at the free download version).

Early on in the book Owens states that the situation in Liverpool “was a battle for dominance between two opposing ideologies each determined not to retreat. This decade-long war saw people arrested, hospitalised and imprisoned. It was ten years of conflict which saw the eventual triumph of the nationalist will…” After reading this, you would expect that, at the end of the ten years, Liverpool BNP would have smashed all its opponents into the ground. The “nationalist will” would have triumphed. So it may come as some surprise to find that Owens describes the exact opposite. An increasingly violent and arrogant BNP is met head-on in the mid-1980s, and collapses. Owens suddenly finds he has better things to do.

Most of this information is found in the chapter “The End of Politics” .This is the period from early 1986 to 1988. At the beginning the BNP is apparently growing. At the end all the main BNP members left – and Owens also left, to begin life as a bouncer. What caused this collapse? Owens sort-of hints at what happened. Owens admits to a “war” with the anarchists. However, according to Owens, these anarchists are all a bunch of smellies, who run away “screaming” while forever being hit over the head with iron bars by victorious fascists. These anarchists are “concerned” every time they visit their centre. Yet they force all the BNP to resign. Funny that. Something doesn’t quite add up.… About the only time Owens comes close to how it really was – back in the mid-1980s – is when he describes a fight outside the left wing bookshop News From Nowhere. As Owens admits (seeing as he lost a tooth) it wasn’t a walk over. What Owens doesn’t explain is why the BNP (including Owens) stopped harassing or visiting News From Nowhere around this time, and why they stopped selling papers in Church Street (their ‘spec’ in Liverpool city centre).

According to Owens: “Never did reds drive us from our pitch on Church Street even when they had double our numbers. It was only when they outnumbered us five to one or more” .Sounds good – but Liverpool BNP wrote something very similar in the ‘British Nationalist’ magazine back in 1987. I know this because, in 1987, four BNP paper sellers in Church St, including the local organiser, were confronted by four anti-fascists – mostly anarchists. All the BNP papers and magazines were ripped up or confiscated. The article was in the free magazines. The BNP said they’d be back next week in force – but didn’t turn up then, or in the long weeks and months that followed.

The BNP lost it in the streets – and not to vast mobs of ‘reds’, though you’d never guess this from Owens’ account. The BNP could have tried to even the score by paying a visit, at any time, to the anarchist centre in town. Instead, rather than risk a head to head, they chose to repeatedly attack the home of someone Owens calls a “witch”. Owens obviously knows a lot about these attacks, and says the “witch” should have been slashed “across the face”. Yet nowhere does Owens admit he’s talking about a teenage schoolgirl. I never knew her personally, but I do know she was young (15 or so, maybe less) living at home with much younger brothers. No-one should be surprised at this. The BNP were just acting like usual fascist scum – not the heroes Owens would like the reader to believe.

Owens ends this period with a claim that, after the BNP collapsed, “the owners” of News From Nowhere (ie 4 women) were beaten up in their shop, at night, by friends of his. “The owners” had apparently taken to sleeping there to stop fascist attacks. Owens writes how everyone was arrested, red-handed, but mysteriously no-one was charged. There are a few things that can be said about this – like how come no-one heard about this attack at the time? And how come no-one from News From Nowhere had any actual injuries? Fascist attacks on the bookshop – including arson – ended long before the BNP collapsed, as the BNP were forced onto the back foot. Shortly after the BNP collapse News From Nowhere moved from Whitechapel (near Victoria St) to Bold St. What Owens is actually describing is anyone’s guess. Fascist victory against “the reds”, at this time, I don’t think so.

I’ll end with one final point. Owens says he wrote this book as a response to the book ‘No Retreat’ – which deals with the many physical force defeats inflicted on violent fascists by Anti-Fascist Action and its predecessors. Owens, in the introduction, says he can’t believe the authors of ‘No Retreat’ hadn’t heard of him or the trouble he gave the left in the 1980s. So, you would expect Owens’ book to give an account of how Liverpool BNP whupped the collective ass of Liverpool AFA. Except he can’t say this as the total opposite occurred. In fact, the words “Anti-Fascist Action” never appear in Owens’ autobiography with regard to Liverpool. This is despite all the anarchist anti-fascism of the time – from the mid-1980s well into the mid-1990s – being under the AFA banner. Funny that.

An ex-AFA member.

Skeleton crew

Don't knock Larry

15.06.2010 11:07

He may be mad and got into bed with the Nazis, but the last thing we want is him sending his sock puppet Heidi on here.

Harry O'Lara

Ructions at Freedom?

15.06.2010 11:28

Why anyone at Freedom would have an issue publishing this book is beyond me. It's likely to be very popular and of great interest to many anarchists as well as others right across the so called left. Breaking out of the anarchist ghetto is something to be applauded.

Tall Chris
mail e-mail: tallchris99@hotmail.com

FAO Chris

15.06.2010 12:00

I enjoy reading all sorts of political books Chris, but I would expect an anarchist publishing group to publish everything I find of interest. Freedom only publish a small amount of stuff and should their limited resources for publishing anarchist stuff.

Tony

O'Hara n Owens

15.06.2010 12:16

Only someone as mendacious as O'Hara would try to dodge his balls-deep relationship with Owens in the way he has. The stupid sod will be writing about this thread for years to come!

Nestor

Ructions at fp

15.06.2010 12:31

Maybe nearly half the fp collective had a problem with this book because they had read it? Haven't they heard of consensus there anyway?

@narchist

Re Freedom

15.06.2010 13:23

I don't expect Freedom to publish everything I may be interested in. I have wide ranging interests and it would be neither practical or possible. Anyway Freedom have a long history of publishing boring turgid stuff that few are interested in.

Tall Chris
mail e-mail: tallchris99@hotmail.com

Freedom

15.06.2010 14:28

Some nice people at Freedom, but they appear to have dropped a right bloody clanger with this book. Finally issuing a proper and honest statement about what has occurred would be the first sensible move they've made.

Bob Younger

Sheep Go Baaa!

15.06.2010 15:13

First time I saw the word 'lapdog' applied to O'Hara was in Searchlight many years ago when they accused him of being "Steve Brady's lapdog" and "messenger".

Now the same accusation against O'Hara is resurrected here on Indymedia, except that this time he is accused of being "Joe Owens' lapdog".

If O'Hara was engaged in any kind of intelligence gathering work on behalf of anti-fascists, you bunch of sheep have blown it with your infantile sectarianism.

But isn't this also the typical methodology of Searchlight, to try to discredit their opponents, even those on the anti-fascist side, in order to maintain and preserve their own 'unique' role as intelligence gatherers and information providers?

All you darling little ewes and lambs on here should write your own book, you could call it Bleating The Fascists.

Baaaaaaa!!

Krakpotkin

This is surreal...

15.06.2010 15:29

Why should Freedom issue statements of what they have agreed and the process to answer a load of anonymous piss takers on Indymedia?

If I was them I would tell complainers to go and fuck off!

Tall Chris
mail e-mail: tallchris99@hotmail.com

Lap Dog Is As Lop Dog As

15.06.2010 21:52

Indeed. Larry has been the lap dog for a number of fascists. It doesn't take Searchlight to tell you that!

Perhaps he will tell us why he spends so much time with them and who gets the intelligence (if any) he gathers?

Cause you sure as hell can't find any in his magazine.

Plant Pot

Hey Cracknpottin

15.06.2010 23:07

Where did you first hear the phrase 'treacherous no-good lying piece of shit' applied to Larry O'Hara?

Gerry O

Larry

16.06.2010 21:28

How come larry never slags off Red Action when over on urban 75 we have red action admitting they had dealings with searchlight untill '93 and rest of afa officially untill 97 , You continually attack anyone connected to searchlight but why have you let O'Shea and the rest of Red Action off the hook ? Are you still a teacher Larry ? I hope you're a bit more consistant with your pupils or do you let the big boys get away with murder while dishing out detention to the girls ? your the worst troll of the lot Larry..Bet the kids take the piss big time

Teachers pet

Steal this book!

20.06.2010 09:10

If Freedom Press are stupid enough to publish this book I think people should steal it rather put money into Red Action's drinking fund.

Abbie Hoffman

Beg For It!

20.06.2010 15:20

Yeah, faakin anarchy right maan!

I'm gonna take my faakin doggy on a string and my can of faakin super lager and sit on the faakin street outside Freedom faakin Books until some faakin c@nt gives me the faakin book!

Victory.

Faak Red Acton.

And faak Red Romford too!

Faakin Crusty

Sale or Return?

21.06.2010 04:47

Too right 'Abby'. That'll teach them!

Of course, if you nick it from a bookshop, the publishers will already either already have received their wholesale fee. But best not to let logic interfere with your fantasies

And besides, serves the bookshop right for not sticking to chick lit!

Miss T Fide

I'm Praying for Rain in California...

21.06.2010 12:46

"... I think people should steal it rather put money into Red Action's drinking fund."

This is one of several references on this thread firmly equating this Red Action mob with drinking and implying that perhaps they might do too much of it.

It makes them sound just like most people I know. I presume this is not your intention, so

To those posters, I would like to politely ask...

1 Is drinking a problem then?

2 How much is too much?

3 What does too much drinking, or not enough of it, have to do with politics?

4 Are you yourselves adverts for healthy living?

5 Perhaps you might be interested in joining the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association? (

http://www.pioneerassociation.ie/) they take all sorts apparently - even bitter, twisted cunts like you lot

Little Old Wine Drinker...

Crusties - The bastard offspring of Red Action drunks?

21.06.2010 15:32

Drink is the curse of these communities; but how is it to be wondered at? The gin-palaces flourish in the slums, and fortunes are made out of men and women who seldom know where tomorrow's meal is coming from.

Can you wonder that the gaudy gin-palaces, with their light and their glitter, are crowded? Drink is sustenance to those people; drink gives them the Dutch courage necessary to go on living; drink dulls their senses and reduces them to the level of the brutes they must be to live in such places.

The gin-palace is heaven to them compared to the hell of their pestilent homes. A copper or two, often obtained by pawning the last rag that covers the shivering children on the bare floor at home, will buy enough alcohol to send a woman so besotted that the wretchedness, the anguish, the degradation that await her there have lost their grip. The drink dulls every sense of shame, takes the sharp edge from sorrow, and leaves the drinker for awhile in a fools' paradise.

It is not only crime and vice and disorder flourish luxuriantly in these colonies, through the dirt and discomfort bred of intemperance of the inhabitants, but the effect upon the children is terrible. The offspring of drunken fathers and mothers inherit not only a tendency to vice, but they come into the world physically and mentally unfit to conquer in life's battle. The wretched, stunted, misshapen child-object one comes upon in these localities is the most painful part of our explorers' experience. The country asylums are crowded with pauper idiots and lunatics, who owe their wretched condition of the sin of the parents, and the rates are heavily burdened with the maintenance of the idiot offspring of drunkenness.

George Sims
Homepage: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/REtemperance.htm

The ongoing struggle against fascism

22.06.2010 11:04

Possibly the very worst thing about this book is that it argues that post-AFA (when Red Action wound it up to pursue electoral politics via the IWCA) there was no longer a need for militant street-level antifascism. At the time Red Action closed AFA down they derided those who thought otherwise as "ceasefire soldiers", and the book continues with the Red Action/IWCA hypothesis. Anarchist antifascists have argued that there is still a very real need for physical force antifascism, and with the appearance of the EDL that should be more apparent than ever. It should also be apparent that the electoralism of the IWCA has failed completely. In arguing that militant antifascism is no longer relevant the book not only spins a lie (one of numerous), but it condemns the many antifascists who have been imprisoned or arrested post-AFA. In assisting Red Action in propogating this lie Freedom Books should be truely ashamed.

Antifascist

Mr Angry

22.06.2010 13:35

Possibly the very worst thing about this book is that it argues that post-AFA (when Red Action wound it up to pursue electoral politics via the IWCA) there was no longer a need for militant street-level antifascism. At the time Red Action closed AFA down they derided those who thought otherwise as "ceasefire soldiers", and the book continues with the Red Action/IWCA hypothesis. Anarchist antifascists have argued that there is still a very real need for physical force antifascism, and with the appearance of the EDL that should be more apparent than ever. It should also be apparent that the electoralism of the IWCA has failed completely. In arguing that militant antifascism is no longer relevant the book not only spins a lie (one of numerous), but it condemns the many antifascists who have been imprisoned or arrested post-AFA. In assisting Red Action in propogating this lie Freedom Books should be truely ashamed.

It is my understanding that when AFA was wound up, it had done nothing for 18 months. But I'm sure someone from AFA or RA will be along on a minute to answer that.

However I do have some questions for you 'Antifascist'.

1 Have you read the book then? If so, please enlighten us all some more.

2 Is everybody who has a different view from you a liar? That's not very grown-up is it? In fact you sound like one of those fundamentalsit religions you no doubt claim to hate.

3 Are you arguing that anybody who has sympathy for the stated aims of the EDL is a Fascist? And as you are a 'physical force antifascist', does that mean they are legitimate targets for a kicking? You may be very busy for quite a while, so jog on and get started.

4 Freedom Press should be 'ashamed' for publishing a first-hand account of anti-fascist history? Why should they? Do you have any arguments not wrapped up in outrage and childish name-calling?

5 Further up this thread there are lots of references to Joe whatever's memoirs. he obviously 'published' them with Lulu.com (hence the amazon price of £20 - they are printed one copy at a time). If a semi-literate fascisti can do it, why can't you? Why don't YOU write an official 'seen through my own jaundiced eyes' history of AFA yourself then? you could even beat Red Action to print couldn't you? Of course writing whole pages instead of a few lines of vitriol might prove beyond you.

A fan of your upcoming memoirs

Some of us NEVER 'stood down'

22.06.2010 20:37

That's a lengthy post from the ill-informed clown above, and the person it's aimed at can reply themselves. Two points though: Firstly, far from doing fuck all for 18 months prior to RA pulling the plug on AFA, plenty of AFA members have still not thrown the towel in to this day. Secondly, I don't know a single anarchist AFA member whose read the manuscript without using the phrase "pack of lies" at least once.

Ex AFA

Violet Elizabeth / Ex-AFA

22.06.2010 22:26

My point was that there seemed to be nothing TO do.

Perhaps, as I am so ill-informed, you would be so kind as to inform me about your heroic deeds - post the BNP retirement from street politics and before Afa's demise - instead of indulging yourself in more Internet-Warrior name-calling.

How you have chosen to pursue your version of anti-fascist activity since is your business - do feel free to enlighten us about your successful campaign, won't you.

"Secondly, I don't know a single anarchist AFA member whose read the manuscript without using the phrase "pack of lies" at least once."

firstly I repeat question number 2... Is everybody who has a different view from you a liar? That's not very grown-up is it? In fact you sound like one of those fundamentalist religions you no doubt claim to hate.

secondly, I don't know a single anarchist AFA member who has ACTUALLY READ the book. have you? If so could you please inform us lesser beings about what, specifically, you find so objectionable?

Or, like your mate, do you prefer to behave like a 10-year old with a spanked arse?

Coco.... A fan of your upcoming memoirs

Late for the party?

23.06.2010 10:32

Are you upset about being late for the party Mr Angry? Because you really seem to have pissed your knickers and thrown a tantrum. You're either a troll on a fishing expedition or a stupid little boy who was at school when all the AFA stuff was going on. Either way I'd advise posters not to take the bait and incriminate themselves. Plenty of post AFA antifascist actions have been reported on IM and in the wider media. Why don't you grow up and start posting like an adult?

Grasswatch

"I don't know a single anarchist AFA member who has ACTUALLY READ the book"

23.06.2010 11:13

Then you really are VERY misinformed.

ex AFA

FAO Special Agent Grasswatch - this message will self destruct...

23.06.2010 11:47

I hardly think my calm and reasoned post can be termed a tantrum, particularly on here in the 'land of the tantrum throwers'.

QUOTE "Either way I'd advise posters not to take the bait and incriminate themselves"
I nearly did piss my knickers laughing at this one. What a hoot you are. Special Agent Walter Mitty (Codename Grasswatch)... ever alert... cos Britain needs lerts.

Can anyone really 'incriminate' themselves by regaling us with gripping tales of hundreds of hours standing (or should that be hiding?) behind police lines, lollipop in hand, shouting and screaming? Or even the countless hours you put in saving the world role-playing as an Internet Warrior.

Why don't YOU write the ' authorised, official, 100% the truth, traitor free, anarchist history' of AFA then? Has yer mum limited your computer time since the last incident?

Coco the ill-informed Clown - still looking forward to your memoirs, Mr Mitty

A flock of fantasists?! A squad of special agents?!

23.06.2010 12:17

QUOTE "Then you really are VERY misinformed.
ex AFA"

Ahaaaa... mysterious and mysterious-er

Fuck me, Walter Mitty has been joined by Austin Powers - international man of mystery.

How many chapters could you two have written while you are sticking pins in those voodoo dolls?

Coco the ill-informed clown... still smiling... still waiting...

NICE TRY HAS-BEENS BUT ITS NOT GOING TO WORK

23.06.2010 13:06

I guess one of the main reasons for writing this book has always been to try and convince people that nothing has happened in terms of militant antifascism since Red Action crapped out of AFA. No wonder the RA contingent is getting so pissy. You boys made have looked no further than the pub toilet for the last decade boys, but unfortunately for you plenty of people know that the struggle against fascism did not end when you lot shat out of it.

ANARCHIST EX AFA

Attn posters!

23.06.2010 13:43

You think it is bad we have now got red action swanning around Indymedia? Wait til their swanning round at the @ bookfair. Thanks Freedom (maybe they'll form a line round your stall like they do the blaggers - half a dozen scowling fat old cunts in leather jackets are bound to do wonders for your trade!)

Tony

More waffle, still no substance

23.06.2010 21:25

I'm busy revising for my GCSE's, but I have time for a quick couple of questions - not that any recent posters have thus far actually managed to answer any coherently.
Where have the intelligent posters further up th ethread gone?

'Tony'
So now you are abusing Red Action on their perceived lack of sartorial eloquence? which, along with their allegedly tending towards being overweight and their preferred drug (alcohol), apparently fatally undermines their political analysis. Is this your position, 'Tony'? Not very joined-up, is it?

And for ANTICHRIST EX AFA
If your opponents are all old, fat, alcoholic shit-outs, why would you need them? Shouldn't they (and the BNP) all be trembling on their (presumably arthritic) knees before your might?

Coco

A point worth remembering

24.06.2010 13:02

Nearly half the Freedom Collective voted AGAINST publishing this version of the AFA story. Presumably they have had a look at the manuscript and had good reasons to vote against publication (other than being part of a Searchlight conspiracy.) As an Anarchist, I do find it odd that decisions at Freedom are not made on a concensus basis, and that a 5-4 majority was acceptable for what is clearly a controversial decision. As I understand it the person proposing the deal wasn't even at the meeting and voted by proxy.

Observer

Further Observations

24.06.2010 14:16

Those are valid points "Observer". It's also worth noting that the early post on this thread supposedly from the Freedom collective is fraudulent. Also that the stuff about the pre-publication offer being withdrawn because of a "huge" amount of interest is untrue. Orders were minimal. The offer was withdrawn because like the publication date it had nothing to do with Freedom.

Inside Job

Where next

25.06.2010 08:48

Having read through all the posts on here, I think there are a few urban myths being generated, some such as the 'red action retired to the bar analysis' are along with the anarchist versus red action 'debate' , no more than searchlight muddying the waters.

Indeed one of the searclight people who has been posting on here under numerous guises will in all probability die of drink related illness the way he is going. But thats by the by.

I see no reason why the book shouldn't be published by an anarchist publisher. Its utter nonsense that anarchists would prefer no history because of the misinformed perception perpetrated by a third party, that the anarchist contribution is misrepresented.

Furthermore, the demise of AFA was caused by the departure of the BNP from street politics.They moved into the electoral arena wholeheartedly then and are reaping the rewards now. Those opposed to the BNP had the same opportunity to follow them into this arena and didn't. The only project which identified and promoted this as the way forward was the IWCA model. This should have been the starting point from where militant anti fascism had to go if it was to continue be effective in opposing the BNP.

Collectively the anti fascist movement, left, anarchist whatever, has failed by not going down that road.This is the failure which has led to the growth of the BNP and it is a collective failure. The flip side of this argument which is also being peddled by the searclight people on this and other boards, is the 'big lie' that Red Action pulled the plug on AFA which then gave the BNP a free run.

You can make your own minds up on whether AFA or Searchlights version of history is true, but it may help if you read the AFA book first.

political realist

'Our way or the highway'

25.06.2010 11:37

Fair post, 'political realist', but surely RA hardly expected anarchists to follow them into electoral politics? From what I remember we were given no choice about AFA being wound-up.

Old AFA anarchist

FAO old AFA anarchist

25.06.2010 13:09

Old AFA Anarchist,

You have hit the nail on the head. There WAS no choice and that was determined by the BNP change of direction. AFA as effective as it had been, was now impotent to deal with the new BNP electoral threat. Indeed many then didn't take it serious.

I take the point about anarchists and elections, but equally the left within AFA would also have had and indeed had similar misgivings.

The BNP have been unchallenged for 15 years at the ballot box and on the estates by anyone promoting a radical alternative to the status quo. The united front opposition of church, state, searchlight etc has only served to drive voters towards the BNP rather than away from them.

And in an era when 60% of teenagers interviewed thought Churchill was the 'oh yes ' dog off the insurance advert, what potency does branding the BNP as nazis have?

We have had 15 years to think through alternative strategies, and implement them, and again I would argue that collectively we have failed to respond to the BNP in any meaningful way. Can we really say with any conviction that we have had no choice. .

political realist

AFA needed now more than ever

25.06.2010 14:40

At the time of its inception I supported the IWCA initiative, and I still believe that its vitally important for antifascists to organise against the BNP in our own communities. However, as a national entity the IWCA has been a complete failure. Arguably, the BNP never completely abandoned the streets, and certainly other fascist groups didn't. I believe that there is now a very real possibility that BNP activists, emboldened by the successes of the EDL and embittered by electoral failure, will return to the streets in greater numbers. I am fortunate to live in an area where there is an effective (though apparently small) militant antifascist group to keep the fascists on their toes, but what is needed is a mass working-class movement akin to AFA. With the benefit of hindsight it is hard to argue that we did not stand down prematurely. I'm too old for the game now, but in my opinion the relatively small number of antifascists who have continved with militant action since AFA deserve our thanks and (critical) support, not to be slagged off simply for not being AFA.

Independent Socialist

IWCA parrallels with Sinn Fein

25.06.2010 15:11

As an AFA outsider I was always interested by the apparent parrallel's between Sinn Fein's evolving political strategy and that of Red Action. Sinn Fein abandoned support for the armed struggle in favour of seats on a glorified town council, whereas Red Action abandoned support for militant antifascism in favour of a seat on a town council.

Belfast Boy

Ideology screws you up

25.06.2010 16:00

Looking forward to reading the book myself.
Totally agree an AFA type group is definintely needed now.
By the various contributions on this topic and animosity flowing, I just wish that it could be united and turned against the current set of fascists causing us problems on the streets.
Every group has a part to play and it is utilising what we have in common that brings success, not continually moaning about our differences.

Prepared to Stand

FAO Independent socialist

25.06.2010 17:58

I find your arguments hard to understand, as the BNP has not suffered an election failure, and neither has the EDL had any tangible success. Indeed the EDL are something of a dead rubber when set against the ambition and achievements of the BNP.

To argue the need for an AFA type group to oppose the BNP, is to admit to the failure to challenge them to date, where they are making headway.

The need for political action along the lines of the IWCA template is the only radical alternative to the BNP.

Tell me what else has been effective. Exposing them as nazis? Trade Union action? Mass rallies?

I also don't think any anti fascists still kicking the fascists are being slagged off. I don't see that on here, and especially not from AFA activists of any persuasion.

The difference lies in what you are advocating, namely the political challenge has failed and must now be written off. The BNP will return to the streets after electoral failure and team up with the EDL to achieve what exactly? Somehow a new AFA against fascism but in favour of nothing to put in its place, will effectively challenge the BNP in the areas where they have clear electoral support and we are unheard of.

Im sorry but this is delusional.

political realist

Fao Independent socialist

26.06.2010 10:56

The notion that the IWCA has been 'an absolute failure on national basis' is a fallacy. For two reasons: one the IWCA strategy has never been implemented on a national basis. Secondly, where the strategy has been implemented in wards as diverse as inner city Glasgow and outer east London, the working class support generated in the pilot schemes is potentially more significant than anything the left has achieved in more than half a century.

Your first principle mistake is to confuse strategy with structure. If you regard the strategy as an experiment then it has be regarded as a success - if that is - you see the disenfranchised working class as the solution. Pound for pound the ratio of activists to candidates and candidates to elected cllrs, is I would argue, (even without mentioning the near misses in Clerkenwell and Hackney) unparalled.

So think for a moment of a political landscape if the lessons of Blackbird Leys were applied tenfold or even a hundred fold? Better or worse?

Of course the lessons have not been applied nationally. Nor could they be. From the outset the national network, infrastructure, the money were never there. So the choice in the late 1990's was this. Redouble our efforts to convince the left anarchist, trot and stalinist alike that orientating directly to working class communities was the radical way forward, or implement the strategy ourselves.

In opting for the latter course of action it was hoped others would join in - some did - but not enough to compete with the BNP on a national basis. Which means that the national network, based on the template provided, is still to be built.

Afterall the BNP had only one model to work on - which was the Isle of Dogs when they changed course. But that was still enough for them to cross the Rubicon. Not only that but they had to wait 8 years before securing a single cllr. (For what its worth the IWCA experiment took half the half the time.)

But did the BNP give up? No. Were there sirens (some no doubt state inspired) calls for a return to the streets. Sure there were.

So if they did not change course without having a single cllr to show for their efforts why would they do so now when they have MEPs, and representatives on the London Assembly?

The reality is they're not going to. In imagining they might, in speculating in 'what if?' scenarios you are making your second significant error.

The route to success in whatever the field is to look at things as they actually are, then come up with a plan to try and change that reality. But you have fallen into the trap of doing the opposite: which is to imagine how you would like things to be, and then shape the ideal foe to compliment your favoured strategy. In short the applicaton of the your analysis is the wrong way round. As a consequence you may think your changing reality, but you are merely accepting of it.

J.D

Red Action

26.06.2010 13:52

Homerton two years ago, remember it well, Red Action appeared and strutted their stuff, funny bunch obviously liked a drink and living off their old reputation, I found them kind of funny. They were nowhere to be seen when things kicked off on the night with our polish punk morons even thought they supposedly were security for ITA. Maybe they had already retired to the pub or were strutting their stuff on the catwalk. I Still think if they had turned their hand to it they could have produced a clean sweep of things though.
Martins book - yes I enjoyed it and am also looking forward to Beating the Fascists.
I know why I follow a lone path and work with whoever I choose when I read all the stuff on this thread. I really am too simple for all this in fighting and most of it goes way over my head.

Still true to myself

The IWCA

26.06.2010 16:36

So the past 13 years have just been an experiment? Glad to see it's been such a success, your analysis has proved spot on, and it's really made a difference in terms of stopping the BNP. How selfish and short-sighted the vast majority of AFA members were not to support your long-term plan when shutting up shop and going into electoral politics was always part of the agreed AFA national charter. It's a good job this book is coming out to set the record straight.

pish n chips

Leeds IWCA

26.06.2010 16:57

Bout ten year back there was talk by a couple of local chancers about setting up an IWCA branch in Leeds. They even filched themselfs some cash for it. That was the last heard of IWCA Leeds.

Joe

Electoralism

27.06.2010 18:08

There were of course other trot groups in AFA who believe in electoralism, and have chosen to pursue it under their own colours, rather than throw in with Red Action and the IWCA. OBVIOUSLY Anarchists were never prepared to go down that road. We had worked alongside Red Action in AFA, for better or worse, unaware of their electoral ambitions, and that AFA was the vehicle they would eventually try to use. OF COURSE the IWCA had no national presence or infrastructure - it was rejected by the overwhelming majority of AFA members.

Simon

re: Electoralism

27.06.2010 23:10

The IWCA was not set up primarily as an electoral vehicle, rather it was about orientating ourselves back to the working class, creating 'communities of resistance' in working class areas, a concept that anarchists could have easily embraced without necessarily having to go the full hog with Red Action when it came to elections.

As one of a few former Militant members with previous experience of election campaigns, I can remember pointing out, at a national Red Action meeting which discussed the IWCA strategy, the pitfalls and serious burnout involved in pursuing a purely electoral strategy and I was satisfied that Red Action's view of the strategy was less about capturing positions and more about winning hearts and minds in working class areas.

Unlike anarchists, I have no problem in electing to local councils and community councils working class activists to represent their areas, as long as those who are elected are fully accountable to their communities.

Reader

At least the iWCA had a go

28.06.2010 11:39

I'm far from convinced that the 'majority of aFA members rejected the IWCA' as alleged.

Many branches took up the challenge. However if that was the case that the majority rejected the need for a political arm it leaves them open to charge of reneging on the AFA founding statement to 'confront fascism physically AND ideologically'. And if indeed they scorned the need for ideological opposition as well as physical opposition, they rejected the AFA founding statement too. And as the current state of play suggests they were very wrong to do so.

We now have a situation where the BNP can lay claim to being the fourth largest party. Not only that it is widely seen as the radical alternative too. A direct consequence of attacks on New Labour being seen to come not from the left but entirely from the far-Right. Nationally the iWCA has not managed to change that perception but at least they were prepared to have a go.

Chaney

CHANEY

Ideological Opposition

28.06.2010 17:12

It's not that the rest of AFA rejected ideological opposition to fascism (indeed many of us have been involved in organisations since, which oppose fascism ideologically as physically.) Merely, that we rejected electoralism, and continuing to work under Red Action.

Black n Red

Finally the truth?

29.06.2010 10:47

Ideological Opposition
28.06.2010 17:12

It's not that the rest of AFA rejected ideological opposition to fascism (indeed many of us have been involved in organisations since, which oppose fascism ideologically as physically.) Merely, that we rejected electoralism, and continuing to work under Red Action.
Black n Red

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And finally after nearly 250 posts it comes down to this. Faced with the choice, anarchism rejected the notion of working with or 'under' Red Action opting instead to take their chances living with or 'under' the BNP. It's a remarkable admission.

Let's hope history is kind.

As for the 'opposing' fascism ideologically bit, it is surely self-evident that to do so effectively it is neceessary to inhabit the arena in which the fascists have choosen to operate.

If say the BNP wanted to control the music scene you have to go there. Like wise onto the streets or the football terraces. You cannot do it from your front room.

Currently, and for the last fifteen years the arena of operation has been the political mainstream. Where is anti-fascism? Where is the ideological opposition? Where are you?

Chaney

'The Truth'?!

30.06.2010 12:27

The simplistic arguments in favour of electoralism are ones that all anarchists would reject (and indeed find ridiculous.) So why are Freedom (supposedly an anarchist publishers) assisting Red Action in propogating these stupid ideas? Come on Freedom, what do you have to say for yourselves (or are Red Action your mouthpiece now?)

Black n Red

Standing with the BNP

30.06.2010 13:20

I don't see why it's not possible to oppose the BNP without standing alongside them. It's not as if the IWCA strategy has worked anyway is it?

Anarchist

Silly little boys

06.07.2010 16:47

I came across this thread thinking, 'wow, finally somebody is putting something together about the fight against fascism that I was proud to be a part of. Then I read all this girly posturing from anti-RA people. Pathetic.
I worked with many anti-facists - and any anti-fascists. The ones that put in the most work, physically and timewise in my area were RA and DAM. We worked together: we had different politics but we put them aside . . . and fascist fell over in the dark.
I've done the big does, the small does, the does that nobody knows about and I am proud of my activity within Red Action.
I knew there were some small minds working in various other outfits - I came across some of them, but when it came to real anti-fascist work, the leg work, the scary work, the hard work, mostly the calls came from RA.
The so-called left is shot to shit. Nobody knows where we are going any more. Trades Unionism is buggered, marching, which never got as very far anyway, is sorted out by the filth. We need to look for new ways to combat not just fascism, but the massively skewered and unfair society that we live in. Next year we will have riots and strikes. The year after either back to this and worse or more riots and strikes. An all you want to do is slag off a group of working class activist that risked absolutely everything to close with the enemy. When the shit hits the fan again, I don't want to be with you lot that's for sure.

To any RA/DAM readers: A Big Sarf London hello from Scotland

Aitch -

'Girly' anti-RA posts

11.07.2010 22:11

Nuff said bout your politics prick.

Antifascist girl

Fucking Lost

15.07.2010 12:38

I have followed this matter for some, but am still absolutely fucking lost as to why Freedom would want to sink £10,000 into publishing Gary O'Shea's memoirs. I can only conclude that they have either lost their marbles or their politics. Incidentally, some months ago a friend of mine emailed to see if they would be interested in publishing the first English translation of Anarchist former prisoner Xose Tarrio's book 'Hay! Hombre Hay!' She didn't even get the courtery of a reply, let alone the red carpet treatment Red Action have received. When this deal goes sour and Freedom are looking for another hand-out to replace their misused funds I hope people have the good sense to tell them to fuck off.

Anarchist

Freedom numpties

16.07.2010 14:03

Red Action always sneered at the anarchists involved in AFA, but were never worried about using them as footsoldiers when necessary. Now the numpties at Freedom ( note that 2 of these clueless dingbats are in the clueless Liberty and Solidarity) are being used by O'Shea and his chums to big themselves up and write their version of AFA. Where was the "consultation" with anarchists who might have a different point of view? And of course when you get the completely dodgy Larry O'Hara - (who regularly spreads disinformation about good anarchists, sullying their reputations,- does anyone with any sense take him seriously?) coming on board to defend this complete idiocy, you know that Freedom is on a complete losing streak!!

BIG BAD BAKUNIN

History is not in the past.

16.07.2010 16:44

Periodically there has been the presentation of the AFA book as as individual memoirs. Were that the actual case there would not be so much hysteria. Not to mention the amount of footwork put in by AFA's opponents to try and stop it being published.

There is also the pretence that the principle objection is that it is to be published by and anarchist publisher. But that is just a screen. Do you think they would be any happier if it was being published by someone else? Don't think so.

So what are they afraid of you ask? Lots apparently.

But probably more than anything is that though it is a history of militant anti-fascism - 'the past is not history.'

Indeed as this thread in particular demonstrates so avidly 'the past isn't even in the past'.

JACKMAN

Marvellous

19.07.2010 08:38

"when you get the completely dodgy Larry O'Hara - (who regularly spreads disinformation about good anarchists, sullying their reputations,- does anyone with any sense take him seriously?) coming on board to defend this complete idiocy, you know that Freedom is on a complete losing streak!!"

--says the troll above. Talk about evidence-free! Quite clearly, you and other denizens of Troll Central do take me seriously. Not seriously enough to provide any evidence, but then, that is a currency you and your kind don't trade in. Looks like your efforts to suppress the book have failed: good!

Larry O'Hara
Homepage: http://www.borderland.co.uk

Taking Larry seriously

20.07.2010 15:00

Come on Dr Larry, even those who like you don't take you seriously! Apart from yourself I doubt anyone does. You just think if you repeat a lie enough times it'll have validity. In this case the lie is that there's a conspiracy to suppress this book. You're not right in the head Larry, and if you think that isn't what most people think about you, you're lying to yourself,

Harry O'Lara

Lying cunts

20.07.2010 23:07

Just checked out the link to the FP website n it has changed substantially since this ad went up. See they are still saying that the £10 pre-publication was dropped because of "overwhelming" interest tho. That is a right fucking lie, there were hardly any orders n the offer was dropped cos it was never approved by Freedom Press in the first place.

Class War

Pack drill

24.07.2010 02:18

seems we have a grass within the freedom collective feeding shop-soiled information to an unhinged northerner getting on his high horse over a group he was never even involved in.

And as ever the cowardly anonymous voices gather like flies round shit to have an opinion.

Jim W

BNP councillor infiltrated Red Action?

26.07.2010 11:28

There's a BNP video on You Tube in which recently deposed BNP ex-councillor Lawrence Rustem says he spent years infiltrating Red Action and AFA....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgovxn9sfSE

As for the hundreds of comments above, if every one of the "Anti-Fascists" who posted here spent the same amount of time and energy posting hostile comments on pro-BNP You Tube channels, that might have achieved something

Instead all this thread shows is, for all their courage and former achievements, how irrelevant some old militants can be contemporary Anti-Fascism. Then again, if militants WANT to alienate migrant communities and ordinary Anti-Racists with violent Class War and revolutionary left rhetoric maybe it's best they bicker amongst themselves here, instead of going out and damaging Anti-Fascism in the wider community?

Anti-Fascism is not about your pasts it's about our FUTURES

Anti-Fascism is NOT about YOUR pasts it's about OUR futures

Trolling

27.07.2010 09:47

What a shameful abuse of indymedia by Red Action - advertising a book that freedom hadn't yet agreed to publish and then trolling this thread, attacking anyone who disagrees with them.

Paddy

BNP councillor infiltrated Red Action? Comedy vid?

28.07.2010 00:49

Don't take me wrong but the video made me laugh out loud. Looks like a monty Python sketch. I don't know anything about RA history but what you see in the video is someone very jewish looking getting anounced and coming on in a BNP meeting and mentioning the word "infiltration". The gathered aryans at the meeting must all be looking at him open mouthed and thinking "hang on a minute where have I seen that boat race before? ..."

Does he do the sieg heily bit too, lol...?

Was he havin a laugh or what?

Gerard

No seriously, is it true about the infiltration?

Gerard

Calm down, calm down

28.07.2010 16:16

Paddy...it's an AFA book not Red Action, and I for one can't wait for it to come out. A lot of people I know are looking forward to hearing the AFA story.

So less of the bollocks and false indignation, and you should be applauding freedom for their efforts in bringing out books like this.

Well done freedom press.

Yozzer

Yozzer

05.08.2010 08:58

If this book is about AFA, rather than Red Action, why does it start in 1977 (when RA was formed) not 1985 (when AFA was formed)? I imagine it ends @ 1997, when RA set up the IWCA, yet there were AFA groups operating as late as 2000.

Paddy

AFA groups

06.08.2010 19:05

In fact there were AFA groups existing as late as 2002.

Ignasi

Paddy

07.08.2010 09:34

How can you explain the history of AFA from its creation in 1985 if you do not explain where it came from. The formative years spent by activists in the ANL and the squads, and then in the regional anti fascist groups are the precursor to AFA and track the roots and development of militant anti fascism.

I hope the book captures all this and also explains the crossroads which AFA found itself at in 1996.

This is all part of our anti fascist history and needs to be there as a reference for others.

Yozzer

Yozzer

Come out, come out, wherever you are Matthew...

07.08.2010 17:17

Matthew Collins, Searchlight operative and supposedly ex-fash and fearless football hooligan is the man who has been pulling your chains on here...

Fucking plonkers!

So blinded by hatred of reds that you cant see that Searchlight have set the agenda from the very start on this thread.

I have nothing but contempt for the anti-red pricks from the so-called 'anarchist movement' who have been spreading rumours and lies about AFA, RA and the IWCA.

The most outspoken element here have never raised a finger against fascism - FACT.

Not a single one of your Antifa comrades that I have spoken to recently supports the anti-AFA and anti-RA views expressed here... so who are the 'real anarchists' and 'anti-fascists' who have been dominating this thread, because by all accounts you lot are MIA when it actually comes to fighting fascists.

A phantom army is what you are and always will be.

Big fucking gobs on the net, shitehouses on the street.

Mr Bagle

Stale bagels

09.08.2010 13:50

More Red Action clairvoyance? How fucking tiresome. A shame you couldn't forsee what a crock of shit the IWCA would be. Why don't you take your tired macho posturing somewhere else?

Jo Crump

The class of '82

09.08.2010 17:20

Just for the record RA was founded in 1982.

the AFA the national office/website was still functioning in 2000.

While the last issue of Fighting Talk, I am reliably informed, was published as late as 2001.

A few simple dates that rubbish the running commentary by the anti-book brigade on here.

Chaney

Yozzer

09.08.2010 20:26

I take your point about the pre-AFA period. There was certainly a lot going on then, and around the country antifascists were fighting tooth and nail with the NF, BM, etc. However, I would imagine that, as with the Hann & Tilzey book, the focus will be on the SWP and Red Action. To be charitable that may because it is all the authors know about. Those were different times and there were some good antifascists in the SWP in the 70's. Red Action of course did some sterling work. However in many towns and cities it was militant anarchists who really took the fight to the fascists. That is something that Red Action, for obvious political reasons have always been unwilling or unable to aknowledge. I doubt that that will have changed with this book - though I would be happy to be proved wrong.

Paddy

Red Action

10.08.2010 09:31

A book about Red Action would I'm sure make a fascinating read. I used to get their paper and knew a few of them socially. I'm a bit confused as to whether or not they still exist in any form. Also, I'm sure I heard of them before 1982, but maybe my memory is going. There often seemed to be a lot of 'back-biting' in London between them and the other antifascists. I hope this book helps get rid of some of the bad blood rather than making things worse.

Old lad

Paddy

10.08.2010 16:25

Paddy

As the dates put up by others demonstrate, RA wasn’t formed in 77 nor AFA finished in 97, however the dates do effectively bookmark the period of militant anti fascism’s effectiveness against the far right.

The Tilzey Hann book is limited by the fact that Tilzey is active from 78 to 82 prior to becoming a full time searchlight operative, and Hann has 2 years as a footsoldier in London prior to being active for 4 years in Manchester before ‘retiring’ in 1996.

As you will note this hardly qualifies them to give what has been passed off as the history of AFA over this period.

There have been published works on anarchist involvement in AFA, such as Anti-fascist Action - an Anarchist Perspective: By an Ex-liverpool AFA Member , which is available on Amazon.

Also there is ‘Bash the Fash - Anti-fascist recollections, 1984-1993’ written by a grassroots anarchist member of AFA.

What is surprising is that none of the’anarchists’ posting on here seem to know about these books.

Perhaps they should read Bash the Fash, chapter 2 opening sentence is as follows….

To be fair, a great deal of the credit for the militant anti-fascism in the 1980s and 90s deserves to go to Red Action. Thanks to a Red Action initiative Anti-Fascist Action (AFA) was formed in 1985 which brought together the Direct Action Movement (DAM), Red Action, Workers Power, and various other groups and individuals. Red Action were striking terror into the hearts of British fascists years before I started, and were still doing it years after I became inactive. I can’t say I agree with all the finer points of their politics, but I will always have massive admiration for their anti-fascist bravery and dedication.

Over to you Paddy to explain Red Action’s obvious political reason for doing this!

Yozzer

Yozzer

anarchophobe?

10.08.2010 18:19

One of the baseless allegations repeated ad nauseam throughout the thread is that RA are virulently anti-anarchist - utterly phobic. It hasn't really been challenged but where is the evidence? Granted RA were not anarchist and critiqued anarchism as a theory as they did Leninism and social democracy. So what?

But as the record shows they had no problem working with and alongside anarchists when the need or opportunity arose. CW for example in early AFA. Dam too. It was also RA that encouraged DAM to come back into the fold after the re-launch in 1989. Indeed RA worked more closely and longer and at a higher level of commitment up and down the country with with anarchists than most other anarchists! This was also recriprocated. When SL (take a bow Mr Bowman) tried to split AFA in 1993 it was Bolton anarchists who stepped up to resolutely defend the RA record in the North West,

The whole anti-anarchist thing is a canard. Divide and rule is a state tactic. Searchlight are using anarchism and anarchists on here as stick to beat AFA. Too cowardly to fight out in the open they are using anarchism as a proxy. Genuine anarchists have nothing to fear from the book. On the contrary as this thread shows the level of ignorance, some of it genuine admittedly, is extraordinary. Only people with a vested interest in keeping everyone in the dark oppose publication, If ever a case needed to made for publishing a history of militant anti-fascism - this thread is surely it.

Jackman

Red Action

10.08.2010 18:45

Red Action were officially launched at a meeting in London in January 1982. Prior to that most of their members had been in the Socialist Workers Party.

H

Red Action and the Anarchists

11.08.2010 09:36

As an Anarchist-Communist, with a Marxist economic analysis, I found Red Action an interesting political phenomenon. They were working-class almost to a man (I never actually met any female Red Action members, though they may have existed), their paper was more interesting and accessible than any other on the Left, they were prepared to back up their rhetoric on the streets, and while adhering to Marxism, they rejected Lenin. The latter was particularly important for me, and it was reflected in their paper, though less so in the behaviour of some of their individual members. Compared to some of the anarchists knocking about in the 80’s and 90’s (and still today) they were a tight and relatively disciplined group, something which gave them an advantage in terms of fighting fascism, and in dealing with their political allies. They could unfortunately be both arrogant and elitist, with little patience for those who didn’t share their exact political analysis, and I think this hampered their growth as an organisation. Some of their members could also be rather sexist and macho. Bearing in mind their relatively small size, and their concentration in only a few big cities (mainly London), Red Action needed political allies to work with. In the 80’s and 90’s, in terms of anti-fascism, it was inevitable that would mean working with Anarchists, particularly as much of the mainstream Left hated them with a passion. If Red Action had not needed the numbers, I very much doubt they would have worked so closely with Anarchists, which they often did. To a very large extent, I can understand their frustration with the ‘crustie’ element, I felt (and feel) much the same, but in my opinion there was always an underlying contempt for Anarchist politics too. The latter is evidenced in some of the posts on this thread.

Red Action were a minority within AFA, but it was inevitable that they would end up running the show. They had political ambitions, and a certain ruthlessness, which Anarchists didn’t share or even understand for the most part, but many Anarchists were guilty of too easily allowing them to take on the burden (I don’t use this word ironically) of leadership. Ultimately, Red Action did work with Anarchists for a numbers of years. Yes, there were arguments, but often the problems were due to their London-centric position rather than to any political differences. Personally, I found working with them less problematic than I had with DAM in various Anarchist federations. I do know that other Anarchists had a different experience though.

While Anarchist anti-fascists achieved a lot in tandem with Red Action, ultimately I think their authoritarian (as opposed to libertarian) socialist politics and their contempt for Anarchists won out, and that they betrayed the Anarchists they had worked alongside. Having seemingly run out of steam as an organisation, they launched the IWCA. They must have known full-well that Anarchists would not follow them into an electoral organisation, but they used their own narrow interpretation of the AFA founding charter to justify presenting Anarchists within AFA with a choice of either “Our way, or the highway”. If Red Action wanted to go down this route they could have done it without effectively sabotaging AFA. They may try to justify it as an act of ‘political necessity’, but as I recall, even elements within their own group were unhappy about it. Only the most bizarre political interpretation would characterise the IWCA as a success, and the political cost in killing off AFA was arguably enormous.

Many Anarchists (and not just Anarchists) felt a deep sense of betrayal at what occurred, and Red Action are careless not to acknowledge that. It is understandable that some of those people will also feel betrayed by Freedom’s decision to publish this book (as opposed to Red Action publishing it themselves). Personally I will read it with interest and reserve my final judgement until afterwards.

(Not Searchlight)

Yozzer

11.08.2010 16:25

Fair enough Yozzer, you've argued your case well. I will read the book with interest and let you know what I think then :)

Paddy

'Anti-Fascist Action - an Anarchist perspective' by an ex-Liverpool AFA member

11.08.2010 18:35

This Kate Sharpley Library pamphlet is a good read, with an interesting perspective on how 'Red Action' ultimately fucked over and fucked up AFA.

G

FAO not searchlight

12.08.2010 15:43

For someone who signs yourself as ‘not searchlight’ you could be accused of perpetrating the searchlight ‘big lie’.

Namely,that Red Action closed down AFA in pursuit of electoralism, abandoned the anarchists, and let the BNP have a free run.

Which AFA branches did Red Action close down? I know of 2 branches that were suspended by AFA for collusion with Searchlight. Where did the rest go? Perhaps the people in these branches can explain why they stopped fighting the BNP in 1995. Why they stopped mobilising against the BNP thereafter, and why in 1996 at Bolton when what was left of the Northern network had the chance to take on C18 with double their numbers, and were positioned in the pub next to the C18 coach, they chose to walk away and not confront them.

The failure of AFA to even stand and facedown C18 in Bolton exposed the level of decay that had set in to an organisation that 2 years previously had been very effective against the BNP across the north of England.

AFA branches aligned to the national structure were certainly still active. Initiatives such as AFA magazines Fighting Talk and the anti fascist football fanzines Red Attitude, and TAL were ongoing. Furthermore as the excerpts below from an AFA leaflet issued in 1999 clearly demonstrates AFA was still very much alive and kicking.

‘Fully aware of the differing fortunes of anti-fascism on the continent AFA hosted an International Conference for militant anti-fascists in October 1997. Despite being banned by the Labour run Camden Council at the last minute (a decision which resulted in a four-figure out of court settlement), the conference which attracted 22 groups from the USA, Canada and Europe was a huge success. The Militant Anti-Fascist Network which resulted is already proving influential, with a particular resonance in Germany, where the far-right have just recently entered regional government’
‘Since 1985 AFA has diligently and successfully repulsed a whole series of initiatives by the far-right. Demonstrating in that process not only how, but as importantly why, fascism must be ruthlessly confronted at the earliest possible stage. An obvious result being that despite having one of the highest race attack rates in Europe (a figure that has quadrupled in a decade) the British far-right, unlike their political counterparts in mainland Europe (the far-right recently topping the poll in Austria) have thus far been firmly confined to the margins. That said, it is a situation the BNP, by standing in all regions and distributing over 10 million recruitment leaflets for the European elections in June, are clearly determined to change. As they openly admit if AFA can be outflanked: ‘if AFA can be stopped, that is all we need to win’.
In recognition of this danger, militant anti-fascism, rather than resting on its laurels, has been busily preparing for the challenge. It is a new phase of the struggle. Which if won in Britain, can trigger a similar resistance in Europe.’

Where is the evidence of AFA being killed off for the IWCA. In fact the converse is true, in that Red Action had kept AFA going long after many branches had become dysfunctional because the BNP had changed the rules of engagement.

When the BNP turned away from street politics to address directly the white working class whom the Labour had abandoned, anti fascists had to make a choice. Either ignore it and carry on as before, or you address it and promote a strategy to deal with it.

To confront the BNP on their terms in white working class communities would require a seismic shift in attitude, ambition and performance from the left/anarchists/anti-fascsist groups that made up AFA. It is this collective failure to challenge the BNP where they are operating, which has given them a free run and allowed them to grow, and not Red Action’s failure to maintain a redundant standing army of AFA streetfighters. .

The Searchlight organisation have been tirelessly promoting the line that Red Action are to blame for the demise of AFA and the growth of the BNP for some time. Tilsey and Hann even wrote a book to add narrative to the theory. That one was a self confessed mugger seemed not to bother the other who had the indignity of being expelled not once, but twice from AFA. Curiously he only got back into AFA under the sponsorship of his co-author Hann.

Searchlight are at best a state friendly and state funded outfit, at worst an MI5 brand. Their ‘anti fascism’ has led them to infiltrate (not just) AFA groups, sow dissention and create splits over a number of years. You can draw your own conclusions as to why. They and their state sponsors do not want a radical alternative competing with the BNP in working class communities.

The price you will pay for this is you will just end up with the BNP. Well done Searchlight.

Yozzer

AFA C18 Bolton

13.08.2010 18:25

"Which AFA branches did Red Action close down? I know of 2 branches that were suspended by AFA for collusion with Searchlight. Where did the rest go? Perhaps the people in these branches can explain why they stopped fighting the BNP in 1995. Why they stopped mobilising against the BNP thereafter, and why in 1996 at Bolton when what was left of the Northern network had the chance to take on C18 with double their numbers, and were positioned in the pub next to the C18 coach, they chose to walk away and not confront them. "

AFAs stategy on the day was to stop the march, this it did by attacking it near Prestons of Bolton, the net result was that the march was cancelled - a major success on the day, this was prior to Paul Bowman doing his best to feed a police dog and Simon questioning the decision to attack the march which effectively stopped most of the Yorkshire contingent joining in. As far as being next to c18 coach, what bollocks is that ,AFA was at that time right next to Burnham Park the old ground of Bolton FC. C18 coaches were at the other side of the town center nearer to Chorley Old rd, I know cos I myself scouted them.

nooky brown
mail e-mail: nookybrown@brown.com

Yosser nonsense talker

13.08.2010 19:12

Yosser your assertion that
"The failure of AFA to even stand and facedown C18 in Bolton exposed the level of decay that had set in to an organisation that 2 years previously had been very effective against the BNP across the north of England"

Needs a reply. Your comment which puts a nasty slur on the actions of the Northern network on this day { london were invited but seldom left the confines of the M25}
For the record

1 The object of the day was too prevent a loyalist march taking place in Bolton at which C18 had decided to steward. This was completely accomplished. AFA attacked the march near to Prestons of Bolton as I recal. When we attacked it we also took out several c18 members who mistook ourselves as fash . The consequence of this attack led to the cancellation of the march. There are also many pictures of some of the billy boys being helped into ambulances as well if you care to research it. Total success. I can only preseume you were not there!!

2 We were actually outnumbered by c18 perhaps 3 to 1 despite a national callout many branches did not turn up, the most notable being london. The assertion that we bottled it on the day makes me laugh we attacked the march and succeeded. That is a simple statement of fact.

3. We were next to c18s coach and wallked away?? Rubbish as I myself was a scout on that day I can tell you that AFA was in a pub across the road from Burndam Park , the old football ground of bolton. C18 coaches were in the area of Chorley new road the best part of a mile and a half from were we was.
4. As far as decay let me remind you that there were no BNP councillors at all within the northern network, the only councillor at up to this time was derek beackon in ...London!! We of the northern network success can easily be measured in the simple fact that while we were active there were no BNP councillors, after we had been dispanded, ignored, told that were just "usefull idiots" which was a term that red action people used to describe any one other that red action people then the fox had a free hand and now look at the north now...

I suggest that you get your facts straight, you gave a good account of yourself until now...

Roald Dahl
mail e-mail: yarsreveng1917@gmail.com

FAO Nooky Brown, Roald Dahl

14.08.2010 09:15

Firstly there is no slur on the northern network, as I have stated previously the northern network had been very effective in confronting the BNP.

I was also in Bolton scouting and reported back to AFA on the day. The information I received as AFA moved out of the town centre was that they were now holed up near the London C18 coach. This was why, I was told AFA had relocated there.

After the C19 loyalist gathering was over and they began dispersal the London group headed under police escort towards their coach. This group numbered around 50 plus, one of whom noticed the presence of my car once too often. This info was relayed back to DW (AFA Mcr) who was with Dave H and the AFA group in the pub.

My information after this, courtesy of D W who was with AFA all day, is that Dave H left the pub alone to scout C18 as they were leaving town and came back to report that there was too many of them to take on and after this AFA withdrew. My information, again from DW who was in the pub, is that 120 plus AFA passed up the opportunity to confront 50 C18

The example of Bolton was used to highlight the decline in the Northern network following the change of direction in the BNP. It is NOT a slur on the calibre and input that anti fascists up until then have made.

Moreso it begs the question as to why you and seemingly everyone else in the northern network stopped their anti fascist activity and now in hindsight blame Red Action. No-one, not even the dreaded Red Action has stopped me being an anti fascist activist.

The argument that there were no BNP councillors when you were active, begs only the question why did you stop. And moreso why did you not restart when the threat of BNP electoral success grew.

As has been demonstrated elsewhere in my posts, some of us in AFA were still going strong in 1999, and this included Red Action.

Yozzer

Red Action lies

14.08.2010 12:02

It's easy to see the sort of lies and smears that will be in this book and the 'research' that has gone into it.

Iron Column

Nottingham

14.08.2010 13:03

In view of the witch-hunt against comrades in West Yorkshire, Notts AFA wanted no more to with the national structure Red Action had hijacked. We continued to act as Notts AFA and to work with other groups.

MM

Useful Idiots

15.08.2010 13:35

That's no doubt how Red Action view the morons at Freedom that are publishing there propaganda for them

Fuck Searchlight And Fuck Red Action

Some of us were still going strong in 1999?

15.08.2010 15:33

Some of us are still going strong now comrade

Anti-fascist vet

AFA myths

15.08.2010 16:39

Theres a lot of talk about the BNP rethring from the streets but thats a load of bollocks. Even today they still have street stalls, leafleting ect, and there are still blood & honour gigs and stuff going. If Red Action are the anti-fascists they say why aren't they helping to confront them.

Sam Neil

Leeds afa

15.08.2010 17:58

There was still an afa group going in Leeds in 2001, maybe even later.

...

Antifa - Very nice people and not RA haters at all...

15.08.2010 20:23

A couple of weeks ago I attended an Antifa gig in the Tottenham area. The gig was to raise funds for the antifascists who are up on charges for (allegedly) attacking the BNP during the election campaign.

I attended as a member of the TAL Fanzine editorial group, along with a number of other colleagues and comrades. We estimated that around 25/30 of the Celtic fans who attended the gig did so as a result of our influence and encouragement (plus the fact that we knew most of them from our online forum).

Some of those in attendance were longstanding members of AFA and Red Action. Some are also currently supporters of the IWCA.

Whilst we may have some strategic and tactical differences with Antifa, we recognise their contribution to the struggle against fascism and the bravery of their actions. In such cases, it is natural that we would show solidarity with those who are facing large fines and a possible loss of liberty when the case comes to trial.

The evening also gave us an opportunity to discuss informally the imminent publication of the Beating The Fascists book.

If the general invective of this thread was intended to give a flavour of the reaction of anarchism per se to this book then it is definitely not reflected among the anarchists within the ranks of Antifa, who were generally encouraging and supportive. Most of those that we talked with are actually looking forward to the publication of the book. The fact that Freedom are publishing it did not appear to be an issue for them.

After spending some time talking to anarchists and anti-fascists who are still very much 'physically' active against the fascists, it is very apparent that the bile posted here in the name of 'anarchists' and 'anti-fascists' (whether they claim to be ex-AFA or otherwise) is completely unrepresentative of the milieu.

Those in the 'anti-RA camp' posting here appear to have a vested interest in creating as much confusion as possible with regard to the book and its contents... and perhaps its no accident that its those with the most to lose in terms of personal reputation and political influence who fear the book most? Whether it's Searchlight or bent elements within anarchism who worked to their agenda inside AFA, I do not know, but one thing is for sure, this book has already raised a political storm... and those with most to say about appear to be those who have the least knowledge of its contents,

To all genuine anti-fascists and anarchists who read these posts I would urge them to read between the lines of the posts of the begrudgers and spoilers. Speak to some of your comrades in Antifa, to those who played a genuine and progressive role within AFA, and find out the real story.

Most of all, read the book when it comes out, because it covers a period of anti-fascist struggle that has not yet been told in detail and it contains many lessons for all anti-fascist and pro-working class comrades, whether they call themselves anarchist, socialist, communist, left-republican or politically non-aligned.

Tiocfaidh Ar La

Link

15.08.2010 22:18

Tony Greenstein's Blog: Dave Hann – An Appreciation

http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2010/01/dave-hann-appreciation.html

Al

FAO Yosser

15.08.2010 22:27

In response to your comments on the day the chief steward was John H not dave H or DW whoever that is meant to be, most of your info appears to be what you was told, my info was first hand. you clearly implied that we bottled it on the day, if you were there then admit that

1 every fash we confronted we smashed
2 the march was cancelled due to the attack on it by ourselves

this was a clear success on the day, the decision to leave early was made becuse we were ourselves out numbered by c18 and we did not want them to get any kind of victory over us, on the day there was only 50 of us, i could name everyone and every group there.

As far as what happend to the northern network after red action effecivley shut us down I will tell you, nothing, in parts it still operates and still does.What red action effectively managed to do was turn many anti fascist groups into a a single entity based on a national structure. Red action members were encouraged to take prominant positions within many groups and dominated certain branches. As well as controlling the national office and controlling the national executive which was made up of 2 delegates from each region at which the last national exec meeting i was at there was only 1 non red action member from yorkshire, red action effectively could make any decision it wanted and by afas constitution all afa branches had to obey or else, this was how leeds and hudderfield were effectivley suspended. Once RA pulled the plug on the national structure the grass roots people had no one to contact or could rely on to call anti fascist actions, red action would now only organise around IWCA initiatives and if you were not interested you simply just got left out. The withdrawl of red action leadership and organisational skills effectively stopped afa from working as a national entity. Only certain people has the contact info etc and if these people now did not want to organise againt fascist activity then there was nothing left for afa to do. Hence the organisation was left high and dry without anyone organising anti fascist activities. Once this became apparant most anti fascist groups did what they did before, they became regional groups again concentrating on their own area. I was anti fascist before afa, anti fascist during afa and anti fascist after afa.If you take note of where most fascist/bnp have candidates you will see that they dont tend to be in areas where afa had branches, as I said without a national structure most northern network people concentrated in their own areas as the removal of a national structure and guiding leadership etc that red action effectivly provided led to the fash being given a free hand in areas where we have no organised people. This is the fault of those that removed the ability for us to organise on a national basis.I bet you dont find that in the "authorise history"

Roald Dahl

Antifa

16.08.2010 07:41

Despite their courage and sincerity Antifa are a pale imitation of AFA. The belated respect shown to them by RA is touching, but sits badly with earlier RA comments on this thread and with their attitude over the past half decade. How much Respect did RA show Antifa when they pushed their way into an Antifa benefit gig a few years ago? As for London Antifa, while there seem to be some good people involved half the people who reckon they're London Antifa have never done fuck all in terms of antifascism and aren't even in Antifa.

Monkey

antifa

16.08.2010 11:48

I'm in Antifa. Nothing against Red Action, never met any of youse. As an @ tho I still don't understand why Freedom are printing this not RA themselfs. Freedom never print any new stuff so why not start with some @ stuff?

Tir Saoirse

Perceptions of Red Action

16.08.2010 14:30

If Red Action have a P.R. problem, it has to be said that is largely their own fault. I just hope that this book has a concillatory tone rather than an inflammatory one.

John Doe

FAO TAL

16.08.2010 15:21

Do you have a link to your publication please?

Sounds interesting

Tales of the Expected

16.08.2010 16:32

Hey Roald, I thought you could name every one and every group who was there that day?

Obviously not, cos you don't know who Yozzer is and you don't know who DW is.... funny that innit, cos I know two DW's that were in Manchester AFA and you cant even name one of them!?!

Give it up you plonker. You sound like a sad old fucking football hooligan with your "we smashed every fash" patter.

So what if JonH was chief steward on the day, does that mean that Baldy didn't leave the pub and come back and call the whole thing off?

Maybe your arse didn't collapse, but Baldy's obviously did, and he would have had more sway in calling it 'on' or 'off' than JH, as you well know you.

Biker

Freedom Press

16.08.2010 16:56

I'm sure there are some that have personal fears about this book, but others clearly do have an issue with the fact it is Freedom Press that are publishing it. To be fair to the Red Action comrades though, I think it may be the case that not being part of the anarchist movement they simply do not understand the reason for any valid objection. Freedom Press occupy a unique position in terms of the anarchist movement and are quite unlike any other anarchist publisher. If Ak Press or Phoenix for example, were publishing the book I think things would be quite different.

Eric the Red n Black

Beating The Fascists: Anti-Fascist Action - The Untold Story

16.08.2010 18:50

Was just checking the FP site to see whats happening with this and I see the title's now in its third incarnation. I must say that I very much prefer this one and hope FP stick with it. Publication has now been put back to October

Joe

PS

16.08.2010 18:57

Out of interest does anyone have any plans to write a history of Red Action? Before reading this thread I'd not heard of them for years. I'm sure it'd make a very interesting read.

Joe

Freedom Press

17.08.2010 08:02

As I understand it nearly half the Freedom Press Collective voted against publishing this book. Is anyone saying that THEY are 'Searchlight' assets, have no real knowledge of the book, or are somehow not 'proper' anarchists?

Anon

300-odd posts!

17.08.2010 09:20

300-odd posts on this thread and the book isn't even out yet. Judging by some of the comments it looks to me like Freedom Press are going to at the centre of a real shitstorm.

Alf

Bolton

17.08.2010 09:49

Sounds like this book is going to be much as predicted ie red action did everything n everybody else was cowards n searchlight spys

Antifash

Anarchist Publications

17.08.2010 14:30

"Freedom never print any new stuff so why not start with some @ stuff? "

I'm sure if any anarchists wrote a book (on AFA or anything else) and it was worth publishing, FP would publish it

I'm not aware however of a bottleneck of books written by contemporary anarchists that are crying out to be published

jesus fuck

Collective amnesia

17.08.2010 15:01

Just finished the AFA: an anarchist perspective pamphlet. Good read. It's funny how everybody who was in AFA with Red Action seems to think they ultimately got fucked over by them. Guess it must be some kind of collective paranoid amnesia.

We dun nuffink!

FAO Biker

17.08.2010 16:01

I know no one in manc afa who had initials of dw: for youre enlightenment manc afa from its relaunch had only 2 chief stewards Dave Hann, and JH.

No one of the initials DW ever held any high post in manc afa during its main period of activity.
I can only presume yosser is a name for this sight as no yosser was ever a member of manc afa and just to emphasise that you dont know what you are talking about baldy dave did not come back to the pub and call it of jh did, his decision made on his own, try asking him. The decision at the time caused dismay to say the least as we had a contingent from the midlands down and of course bolton did not like it either as it was felt we could of done more.If you are one of the 20 or so RA people who contributed to the book I do hope that what is written in the book that your facts and recollections are better than the crap that you talk now.

Roald Dahl

The exception makes the rule...

17.08.2010 17:05

So... one member of Antifa has never met anyone from Red Action and another posting using the 'Antifa' monicker appears to doubt the sincerity of those who attended the gig at Mannions. The lads there know who the RA members were and were appreciative of the support we showed them and they will continue to receive political support from our fanzine, regardless of the ultra-sectarianism of some of their erstwhile comrades on this site.

TAL Fanzine has been ongoing for nearly 20 years. We are still active as a group and, because of the situation among football fans, we recognise that retaining a physical component is important. That doesn't put us at odds with Red Action or the IWCA strategy, it just means that we apply the same politics in a slightly different way, one that applies to our particular situation as football fans.

I don't think that showing solidarity to antifascists facing charges is 'patronising', but it's indicative of a certain mindset posting here that every action that has an RA component to it must be decried, rubbished and dismissed.

With friends like these who need enemies?

Anyway, thanks for your time and for wasting mine... the Antifa members who are on charges can rely on our continued support.

The link for TAL FANZINE is

http://www.talfanzine.com/

Online Forum at:

http://talfanzine.proboards.com/

Slan.

Tiocfaidh Ar La

Just a few points

17.08.2010 22:19

Yozzer asked which groups had been closed down. South London AFA for one. The group had a healthy mix of RA, Socialist and Anarchists in the group. There were several 'London' groups at the time but it is my opinion that because the Anarchist and Socialist south London members wanted to carry on with DA against fascists we were closed down. This happened as follows. After many heated meetings with our RA members about our activities we were visited at a branch meeting (unannounced as far as I recall) by one of the London RA 'top boys'. We were told that there would no longer be regional London groups and our group was to disband. All activity thereafter in London would we be deferred to central London for any decision making.

This is when 'No platform' came into existence which was the remnants of the south London AFA group minus the RA members. These same people set about contacting other groups/individuals that simply wanted to 'carry on'. The following years were some of the best anti-fascist activity I have personally been involved in with some notable results. The Socialist people were some of the most dedicated people I ever worked with and work we did with our personal politics never presenting a problem. Unfortunately this working relationship would suffer because of the relationship the SP members had with searchlight. So the short lived NP came to a end and the Anarchists looked to further the fight by setting up the first branch of 'Antifa' in this country.

By looking further afield to Europe we realised there was already a network of militant anti-fascists in place already and this is what we are left with and are part of today. In many ways I believe that AFA was the template for Antifa groups across Europe. It's a funny old world that a ex AFA member became part of a European and hopefully worldwide movement that is now Antifa. History is history boys and girls. The future is unwritten. As for me I've retired....thank fuck!

TAL. Just a note to say the people on the alleged charges are not up for anything BNP related. Good craic the other week!

Rick O'Shea

FAO TAL

18.08.2010 07:41

I wasn't having a go by saying that I'd never met anyone from RA, i live in Bristol and had only just left school when AFA folded.

Tir Saoirse

No Platform

18.08.2010 08:09

Good post Rick O'Shea. I was also in No Platform and remember a good deal of hostility from Red Action, even towards former AFA comrades.

Andy

Closing down AFA

18.08.2010 08:48

As a former AFA member myself, I am amazed that there could even be any debate about whether or not 'Red Action' effectively shut down AFA - Of course they did! Where they did not do it directly, as in the case cited by South London, they certainly did it indirectly (which was easy for them as they had control of all AFA's assets, resources, contacts, etc). To try and smear anyome who tries to tell the truth as stooges for Searchlight is contemptible.

One of the many

Huddersfield

18.08.2010 12:41

Red Action demanded Hudds AFA close along with Leeds AFA supposedly because of links to Searchlight. That was just an excuse to get rid of us, RA continued to deal with Searchlight long after. Our members were told they had to reapply (to RA) for AFA membership! Fuck that! We just carried on battling the fascists as before.

@

Over The Water

22.08.2010 09:39

I heard the whole Ireland AEA were told they had to 'stand down' by Red Action.

Baldrick

Freedom

22.08.2010 13:20

The problem with Freedom publishing this book is that it appears to give anarchist approval to IWCA electoralism and to Red Action's undoubtedly biased version of AFA history. Red Action may have put a lot of effort intn AFA, but ultimately they betrayed everyone who would not follow down the path of electoralism. You are making a big mistake Freedom.

Gud

Put up or shut up!

23.08.2010 09:34

This book despite not having been read by many in reality should be celebrated as a history of AFA needs to be documented. However as it is mainly made up of contributions from around 20 Red Action people and Gary O`Sheas recollections it can hardly be seen to be a complete picture of what AFA really was. Many things have been said and speculated about and if the doubters are correct then this book will just open old wounds and further diminish its relevance and importance. Is it true that certain sections have to be re-written? Why the changes in title? What is clear is that the majority of AFAs membership (Anarchists) are not represented or if they are in a proportion that does not reflect the makeup and the history of AFA.It seems clear that there are many people involved with AFA on this page that could contribute to AFAs history that would reflect what AFA was really about. Why dont the authors take this oportunity to either include these people or at the least release copies of the book so that several respected anarchists that were involved with AFA either give their consent or suggest changes? One day a true hisrory will be written despite what ever is written in this book that reflects what really happend in AFA warts n all. It seems such a shame to publish this book with the percieved injustce that it might represent, on the other hand if it is a true reflection then it is also a shame that it is dismissed out of hand before many people have had the chance to read it.

Roald Dahl

Pre-publication offer

23.08.2010 11:04

There's some stuff on here about Freedom having to pull the pre-publication offer cos they got swamped with orders. Did they bollocks! There was only a handful of orders. The 'offer' got pulled because it was never authorised by the Freedom collective in the 1st place.

Jack Jones

Jack Jones

Cheeky monkey (FAO TAL)

23.08.2010 13:42

"So... one member of Antifa has never met anyone from Red Action and another posting using the 'Antifa' monicker appears to doubt the sincerity of those who attended the gig at Mannions."

I don't think that 'Monkey' comment was posted by anyone in Antifa TAL.

Antifa lad

The Irony!!!!!!

24.08.2010 11:26

Just noticed an announcement that London anarchists are to contest GLA elections in 2012. Given all the accusations of 'electoralism' on here and how it's adoption 'betrayed anarchists' this is deeply ironic.

(Incidentally the elements that accuse the IWCA of 'electoralism' ought to really look up it's meaning before brandishing it as a weapon, it's not what you think it means).

As for the repeated accusation that the book is an 'RA version of AFA' this needs clarification too. The main contributors to the book were either centrally involved in launching AFA in London 1985 and then again in the national re-launch in 1989, or were AFA founding members regionally: Scotland, the West Midlands and the NN.

Essentially this is a book by key AFA's organisers first and foremost. What it provides is a look at events that made headlines and what was actually happening behind the curtains; how strategies were devised to fight both fascists - and - the state.

Historically no such formation has lasted as long, not the 43 Group, not the 62 Group, not the ANL Mark 1. This alone makes AFA unique.

In addittion, AFA forced the British Fascism into a decisive change of strategy. This again is novel. On top of that it is unlikely that few anti-fascist organisations were ever put under as much state scrutiny as AFA.

Arguably the greatest pressure of all was on the organisers and strategists; those in the loop, the founding members. This is who 'Beating the Fascists' is written by. It is not however about them as individuals. It is not anyone's memoirs. Throughout, it is AFA itself that dictates the narrative.

So some people would still prefer not read about it, fair enough.

However the notion that 'RA betrayed anti-fascism' or that 'AFA betrayed anarchism' or that the 'IWCA gave the BNP a free run', is utter bunk. And as Searchlight, who have been harrassing the publishers for months know all too well, this book will finally tell militant anti-fascism's untold story.

Which is the reason they have fought so hard to prevent it being printed, and afterwards will fight just as hard to prevent it being read.

JR

Special Offer!

24.08.2010 15:06

A few points on the 'special offer' that appeared on the Freedom website. It has been claimed here several times that the pre-publication 'special offer' price was only taken up by a handful of people and that the idea for it did not come from Freedom themselves.

I've made enquiries with people from Red Action and they did not suggest or encourage this 'special offer'. It was an idea that came from within the Freedom Collective. Red Action do not design or have access to the administration of the Freedom website, so whoever put the offer on there is involved with Freedom. It took them a couple of weeks to withdraw it, so obviously it was not an issue for them until they either felt that they'd taken enough pre-orders, or had taken a political decision about withdrawing it.

But to nail one of the BIG lies related to the 'special offer' that only 'a handful' or 'hardly anyone' had bothered to take it up. When it first appeared on the Freedom site I put a link to it on the TAL Forum. I also took advantage of the 'special offer' by sending an email to Freedom and pre-ordering it at the promotional price myself. According to the information from our own forum, at least 20 other people from TAL also took up Freedom's pre-publication order, and very few of that 20 were Red Action members... to be exact, I think 2 are former members of RA and I am one of them.

So why lie about there only being 'a handful' who expressed an interest in the promotional offer, because the evidence even from our own internet forum shows that to be a false claim?

Again, this reeks of a viral campaign waged by vested interests. Talking the book down at every possible level, from content even to the promotional offer.

It won't work, because for every person you manage to 'turn off' the book, you ignite the interest of many more. It is an example of reverse psychology marketing that I doubt Freedom or Red Action ever factored in or hoped for when they decided to publish Beating The Fascists.

Tiocfaidh Ar La

Push-ups or Sit-ups!

24.08.2010 15:23

Roald Dahl, you seem to have a real knack for telling stories, why don't you take up your own suggestion and write this 'warts 'n all true history of AFA' yourself? I'll buy it. I might not believe it, but I will definitely buy it, just as I bought your two heroes' book when it came out. In the same way that I bought and read the two anarchist booklets about anti-fascism and experiences of AFA, just as I buy most books that relate to militant anti-fascism.

You say that it's a 'shame' to publish this book with its 'perceived injustices' and then go on to say that it would be a 'shame' to dismiss it out of hand before reading it... ???

Well, make yer fucking mind up will ya?

You're starting to sound a tad Shakespearian old chap.

"I come to bury this book not to praise it."

And as Marc Anthony said, we all know that "Brutus is an honourable man."

Et tu Brute?

Biker

FAO Biker

25.08.2010 10:26

Youre comments make me laugh , all I have done is point out errors in peoples posts on this website, everything I have said is true, I have not slighted my words or allowed any sectarian bias to alter my recollection of the facts. I have not made anything up unlike yourself with your " I know 2 people with the initials DW in Manc AFA" lie. You do not discredit me with your nonsense as anyone in Manc AFA can easily back me up on. As for my 2 heroes, when ave I said anything to the effect that I am in Dh andd St camp? again nonsense to try and discredit me. I stand by what I have said and still do I will let the people on this site decide who is telling the truth or who has an axe to grind.

Roald Dahl

question

25.08.2010 18:37

Cant be bothered too read all this. Book might be great. But WTF are WE publishing it for you?

Sid

Review copies

25.08.2010 22:15

When are review copies available?

Interested

FAO Roald Dahl

26.08.2010 08:26

Hopefully it is obvious to readers of this thread who is telling the truth and who it is making dishonest sectarian attacks. It seems that Red Action's reputation for this, and for ruthlessly smearing their political opponents is well deserved. We can't all be dismissed as agents for Gerry Gable - there is clear evidence that Red Action continued to have links to Searchlies long after they were proscribed by AFA, and lets not forget that Hann and Tilzey were Red Action members. Freedom are well aware of the controversy surrounding this book and searching questions ought to be asked as to the real reason they are publishing it - even in the face of opposition from half their own collective. When AK and all the other publishers passed on the book, was it because they are working for Searchlies and want to see the book banned, burnt, or buried? No, they simply had more sense.

Fellow Anti-fascist

Review copies?!

26.08.2010 13:55

Are you avin a larf?! RA are makin damned sure nobody else gets hold of this book til its printed

London Eye

Pre-publication offer

26.08.2010 22:42

I spoke to someone at Freedom today and they said there had been "a handful" of orders. They also said its probably going to cost £15.

anon

tell me is this gods honest

26.08.2010 23:49

Was told by an old mcr antifash guy that a big time red action hatfield/now aboding mcr had a brother that got lifed up for a racist murder in leeds in the early eighties> any info on this.

outed

Rumour

27.08.2010 06:57

Was that D's brother ?remember John Book telling me that his brother had been that NF bloke Brady's bodyguard at some point , anyone know when it happened ,D was a complete cunt if you crossed him ,must run in the family ,Clifford/noonans sure got some blood on there hands

curious george

Uncontroversial?

27.08.2010 21:09

Funny to think that Red Action pitched this book to Freedom as 'uncontroversial' - and this thread is fast heading towards 350 posts.

Fair comment

re rumour

28.08.2010 03:00

Michael Clifford stabbed a young man to death outside a city centre leeds pub in 1979, The motive was apparently he took issue with the victim(white) walking past the pub with a black friend. Clifford was the Leeds British Movement organiser. He was given life.

leeds old boy

Moronic Matthew

30.08.2010 09:00

Perhaps Gerard is referring to the pressure, mostly in the form of personal abuse being heaped on individuals in the Freedom collective. Do you think it does not carry over into life away from cyber-space? I don't really know any of them but did spend a pleasant couple of hours in their company last June. This book was one subject amongst many we discussed. If anything the abuse seems to have worked in reverse and they came across as more determined than ever to press on and publish the book, rather than bend the knee to some of their more jihadic comrades.

They came across as essentially decent people, and I think that some posters on here have lost sight of that fact. They are young(ish) political activists certainly. With that tag comes a certain amount of political 'rough & tumble', but what they have put up with the last while goes way beyond that. Whether people agree with their stance or not, the campaign of hysterical personal abuse they have had to endure is an embarrassment, not just to Anarchism - but to us all as human beings.

So I say congratulations to them for their principled stance. If I have any issues with the book I will come back here and have my say, once I have read it - and like many other people I know, I DO intend to buy and read it as soon as it is available.

Famous Seamus

FAO Matthew K

30.08.2010 12:19

If you believe that the bile poured out on here has no other avenue than here then you are particularly naive. From the day Freedom Press announced its intention to publish they have been inundated with emails (alleging all sorts of atrocities) phone calls urging them not to publish and even personal appointments with individuals demanding one thing or another. Three months on they are still coming in.

The sole reason an 'obscure site' like Indy has become the repository is because it offers the opportunity for personal attacks -anonymously. The attraction here is two-fold: those pouring on the poison can conceal their identity which means they can't be held to account, but in turn it also allows them to post under multiple flags of convenience.

Someone earlier drew attention to the 300 plus quotes on here as proof of the books controversy. Controversial it might be now, but if you take out the Searchlight/state sponsored disinformation how many original contributors would be left?

Tellingly a Searchlight troll on Urban 75 referenced Indy as proof that the 'truth was coming out'. Clearly he was aware that initiating something similar on there would be impossible. In reality the campaign against the book was initiated and manipulated from the outset by a small number of driven individuals and only this site provides them with the opportunity to do this with impunity.

JR

how sad

30.08.2010 18:58

i have been reading this thread since the 2nd posting getting more and more frustrated at the amount of venom coming from anarchists over a book that is written by a committed antifascist, who - what ever you lot think- was one of a group of people at the forefront of the fight against fascists.
Unlike most of you, i do remember the people who were to become red action, standing ay chapel market week after week to oppose = often very physically - the fascist paper sale.I remember being outnumbered at anti fascist marches and protests, and if it hadn,t been for that core of committed politicals the nazis would have had a clear run. the anarchists were rarely seen in those days of the late 70.s at was the squads that led the resistance.
at last someone has taken the lead in writing a history of the formation and life of afa - any of you could have done the same so shut up whinging. read it and if you dont like it , write your own version

cm

A campaign against Freedom

31.08.2010 08:39

More Red Action lies! I know several members of the Freedom Collective and they are unaware of any 'campaign' against them. A lot of lies have been told about this book, mainly by one side. You can't cover up the fact that nearly half the Freedom Collective were themselves opposed to Freedom publishing this book. As far as I'm concerned the decision has been made now for better or worse, but quit telling lies - from what I hear there's more than enough in the book itself.

Auntie Fash

to roald dahl

31.08.2010 11:00

Have read your comments and concerns, and your take set alongside those of others from obvious RA as well as AFA backgrounds.

What period were you involved with AFA from and until. You dispute and distrust anyone being able to give a history of AFA. So my question is when did you join AFA. Were you there in 85 onwards when manchester AFA was founded. Were you involved with the squads before this, or were you involved from 92 to 96. Also are you one of these who walked away when Hann was shown the door, or did you continue in manchester afa after this.

You dont have to answer any of this but I am confused that you so readily challenge the integrity of others but must surely have a good knowledge of the impact of the Hann Tilsey situation in manchester at this time on AFA, the northern network and the fanzine Red Attitude. By the way were you involved with RA fanzine, if so you must know at least one of the DW's that have been mentioned.

Regards

confused of manchester

Clarification

31.08.2010 11:30

People in Manchester must have been telling porkies then that Dennis was Noonans cousin to big themselves up [ sad ],sure Dennis was happy that they were also telling all and sundry his brother was a nazi murderer ,take it up with your ex comrades mate . I'm impressed with your psychic powers as to why you think I've got a big nose , your old pal Steve has got a big nose but I can assure you I don't go fishing and I my nose is perfectly formed ,

curious george

Freedom

31.08.2010 11:47

It sez a lot that its red action on here defending freedom n not freedom themselves

JJ

Respect due

31.08.2010 13:17

'cm' is right, Red Action deserve considerable respect for their willingness to take on the London Fash in the 1980's (and I'd be very surprised if this book if this book doesn't give them full credit for it). They were sometimes shy about giving respect to others, but that's another matter - For now Nuff Respect. However, I still don't understand why Freedom are publishing Red Action's version of AFA's history. Would Red Action stump up to publish an @ book on antifascism? Of course they bloody wouldn't! Because they're not wooly liberals, and because (politically or otherwise) they are not that STUPID.

Burlington Bertie

Interesting quote from Yozzer

31.08.2010 13:39

"To confront the BNP on their terms in white working class communities would require a seismic shift in attitude, ambition and performance from the left/anarchists/anti-fascsist groups that made up AFA. It is this collective failure to challenge the BNP where they are operating, which has given them a free run and allowed them to grow, and not Red Action’s failure to maintain a redundant standing army of AFA streetfighters." Quote

Been reading yozzers dialogue on here with others and picked out the above paragraph. Apart from a lot griping, Im not seeing the above arguments dispelled by those who are opposed to the book being published.

Anyone care to respond in a politically grown up way to the point yozzer makes.

Paul

Anarchists

31.08.2010 14:27

To say their marxists Red Action seem to have a lot to say about the anarchist movement and who are the good anarchos and who are the bad anarchos. Not being funny fellers but who would give a flying fuck what you think? Your comments just reek of self interest.

AK-47

Relevance today of book

31.08.2010 15:20

It’s kind of random that Matthew K’s first (only) 2 posts are abusive against someone who said they were going to buy the book. Suppose I’ll have to study the searchlight thing to find out what that’s about. I can’t imagine him as even being an anti fascist. Fortunately there are more articulate posters on here.

I’m interested to know the relevance of this book for today’s political climate and would like to read here the opinions of AFA veterans on, for example, the various anti fascist approaches used in Bradford on the 28th august.

If this is seen as a diversion from the original post then direct me to another forum where it’s being discussed.

Gerard

Gerard

Fair comment

31.08.2010 16:20

I've read the whole of this train-wreck of a thread and one of the most tiresome things about it is the frequent pretence on the part of some posters as to clairvoyance. Not just in terms of the content of the book, but in terms of posters claiming to KNOW who other posters are, be it Paul Bowman, Gary O'Shea, Martin Wright, or Gerry Gable. Or the claim that the whole thread is a Searchlight plot to 'bury' the book. Isn't it likely that the sneaky bastards at Searchlight would at the very least have re-posted it to the IM newswire so that it wasn't quite so VERY obscure. Anyone seriously 'campaigning' against the book would do the same. My reading of this thread (and I'm not clairvoyant either) is that you have a very small number of ex-Red Action members doggedly fighting their corner, and a much larger but dispirate number of disgruntled old antifascists. Please don't insult the intelligence of IM readers with silly conspiracy theories, this thread is simply too disjointed and dysfunctional to be just some 'anti-book' plot.

Comment

Freedom

31.08.2010 22:31

If Freedom want to spend £10,000 publishing a book by a Marxist group then I guess thats up to them. But when they have an attic full of unsold books and come crawling for cash from the Anarchist movement (as they frequently do) I think they should be politely told to fuck off.

NSG

Gerard

01.09.2010 08:35

My comments were provoked by the stupidity of your posts. I couldn't give a fuck if you buy the book or not.

Matthem K

Freedom

01.09.2010 11:37

That's absolute bollocks about there being some kind of campaign against Freedom, only one member of the collective is even involved in what has been quite a sordid affair. They've not done themselves any favours by issuing an untruthful statement in Freedom, but I wouldn't expect any better from Red Action's pet idiot. As far as I'm concerned the decision was made months ago (albeit in a very unsatisfactory - and unanarchist - way) and if the Freedom collective want to allow one individual to ride roughshod over them that's their lookout. I'll read the book when it comes out, as I did the Hann and Tilzey book.

Antifascist

Red action

01.09.2010 12:50

Just been reading the old Red Action forum threads about the No Retreat book. I largely agree with them about the book, but you forget what vicious cunts some Red Action members could be. I thought they might have mellowed but looking over this thread I'm not so sure.

Mick

Seamus

01.09.2010 14:04

"Perhaps Gerard is referring to the pressure, mostly in the form of personal abuse being heaped on individuals in the Freedom collective. Do you think it does not carry over into life away from cyber-space? I don't really know any of them but did spend a pleasant couple of hours in their company last June. This book was one subject amongst many we discussed. If anything the abuse seems to have worked in reverse and they came across as more determined than ever to press on and publish the book, rather than bend the knee to some of their more jihadic comrades."

"They came across as essentially decent people, and I think that some posters on here have lost sight of that fact. They are young(ish) political activists certainly. With that tag comes a certain amount of political 'rough & tumble', but what they have put up with the last while goes way beyond that. Whether people agree with their stance or not, the campaign of hysterical personal abuse they have had to endure is an embarrassment, not just to Anarchism - but to us all as human beings."

What a pack of fucking lies!

Geezer

FAO Confused Manchester

01.09.2010 20:30

"You dont have to answer any of this but I am confused that you so readily challenge the integrity of others"

When have I questioned the integrity of others? I have merely put right incorrect information and given what I believe to be the correct interpretation of events in Bolton, I have also crossed swords with a couple of people who sought to discredit what I have said. My main gripe apart from the bad impression people seek to put on the Northern Network is simply this. I would love to see a book that explains the history of AFA. Who would not? I simply believe that my former comrades in Red Action are not in a position to give a full and accurate account of all events that made what AFA was about.Red Action can perhaps give a good account of what they did in the setting up of AFA its direction and that it made the hardcore of the Stewards Group etc etc. I dont have a problem with that, Red Action should be the people to tell that part of AFA. BUT who is writing about the rest of AFA? It is my understanding that the book is made up of around 20 accounts of RED ACTION people and edited by GOSH, these individuals can only have come from a few branches of AFA.How can these few individuals who are concentrated in a few branches give a full account of AFA? Remmember that AFA and information about strategy etc was on a need to know basis, are these same people arrogant enough to believe they can tell the authorised history of AFA? What would you say if an anarchist wrote a book about the authorised history of Red Action? Yes I can imagine. My initial concern was the "authorised" bit, I now see this title has changed but I would prefer a title more on the lines of Red Actions involvement in AFA. In short the only way to get a balanced accurate account of AFA is by having a neutral write it. One thing the above comments have clearly shown me is the divisions and sectarianism between Red Action and Anarchists, I myself am not suprised and people perhaps should ask the questions about why this is the case, any dissenting voice on here is imediately slapped down and what they have to say discredited. I bet the divisions in AFA and the reasons why these divisions exist wont be analysed in any great detail in the book and if so will it be a balanced explanation or the the Red Action version? these questions no doubt would be embassing enough to answer for some but lets face it, these are the reasons why AFA is no more...........

Roald Dahl

On the 'special offer'

01.09.2010 23:11

The content of the original post on this thread (which also appeared on the freedom website at the time) was not written by freedom but by red action - including the special offer. This piece was widely circulated by ra and the op here was made by an ra member. It wasn't put up on the freedom website by ra, but it was put up before the collective had agreed to publish the afa book and when most didn't even know about it. Pretty shitty behaviour really. Thats the reason the offer was pulled - because someone jumped the gun and thought he could do whatever he wanted without consulting other collective members.

Happy camper

Good post Roald Dahl

02.09.2010 09:45

From what I understand the book covers (and by no means exhaustively) London, Manchester, and Glasgow (for reasons obvious to ex AFA members). The anarchists barely get a mention apart from a few 'crusties' at Waterloo.

BR

Hullabaloo

02.09.2010 22:55

The red action faction seem intent on painting criticisms of them/the book/freedom as "hysterical". Compared to the truly hysterical campaign they ran against the No retreat book before it came out this tiny corner of indymedia is absolutely nothing!

Harlequin

FAO Confussed Manchester

03.09.2010 10:43

"If you were invoved in Mcr AFA in 96 then you will have known about the Hann incident. If you were around after that then you will know of the work put in by Red Action to maintain AFA and the Red Attitude fanzine following Dave Hann's departure, and the departure of his cronies.

This doesn't tally with the picture you paint on here of RA pulling the plug on AFA, hence my confusion"

Well here we go I will explain exactly what happend after Dave departure and the efforts that AFA/Red action put into place.

Daves departure from Manc AFA and Manc Red action was initially told to the branch on the day of the Manchester bomb at a pub in Hulme. Present were three people from Red Action London/Hatfield. They then proceedded to to tell the Red Action branch a completely misleading explanation of why Dave had "left" They did not tell us the real reason but made some nonsense up regarding the failure of Dave as the editor of of Red Attitude and the innability of said individual to get a satisfactory response regarding a querry about a story in the fanzine.We at the time thought this was bollocks that someone of such a high profile be forced out so to speak over such a trivial matter. Several voices were raised in support of Dave as he was not there to defend himself and his chief accuser was. The conclusion to this meeting was that Red Action did not like the way Dave had been running the branch and that he had treated it as his own fiefdom, incidents were brought up such as our help during the Bloody Sunday march and that to quote The red action bigwig " we are at war withose bastards (TOM) and we (Manc Red Action) should never of helped them". The conclusion was that the branch had been acting like a bunch of anarchists (I took this as an insult at the time but over time now find this to be a compliment) We were Red Action when going out on red action only call outs (fascist invasion of kilburn for example) and contributions to Red Action newspaper etc but all are hard work etc was If you like brought to nothing by a few simple comments from individuals we had looked up to.The conclusion to the meeting was that every member of the branch was demoted to supporting member status.In my opinion a massive own goal as with a few short months the branch effectively stopped functioning as there were only a few people left and as Manc Red Action were the core of Manchester AFA a massive kick in the bollocks for the AFA branch in Manc.

A clear example of "the work" put in by Red aCtion to maintain afa.

As far as the fanzine, the fanzine was always Daves baby so to speak, once Dave had been ousted most of the people around it left as well. This coincided with the final issue not having been sold and as it was a very popular fanzine that allowed Manc AFA to spread AFA information etc in had still to be sold. Because of the vacuum now in manchester D from hatfield was drafted in to control the selling of the fanzine outside Old Trafford. This was the last time Red Attitude was produced and sold. So to answer your question "you will know of the work put in by Red Action to maintain AFA and the Red Attitude fanzine" my answer to this is simple Red Action after Red Attitudes last edition was closed down. A great fanzine that gave the branch activity, that allowed us to fullfil AFAs ideological commitment that made a great deal of money was closed down.

So much for all that work to maintain the branch.

Raold Dahl

The unreal world of roald dahl

04.09.2010 11:42

I cannot believe the bullshit you have just posted about red attitude, and ra and afa for that matter.

The fanzine did not end when dave was ran. It carried on for another 3 seasons. What is the point of such blatant and misleading untruths. You must be one of the clowns who walked away thinking it would collapse without your input. Big mistake.

Incidentally those who walked away were the hann tilsey clique and not the members of RA or AFA.

If you were around then you will know that AFA held a meeting to decide what would happen with the fanzine. Everyone including Tilzey was invited but the dave hann fan club didnt show, but the AFA people there agreed to continue.

Red Attitude was not dave hanns baby, it was an AFA project from beginning to end. When it started dave hann was an AFA member and bristol city supporter based in manchester.

I think your attempts to pass yourself off as an anarchist on here are now also grounded.

Regardless of what take people on here have about the book, YOU have no legitimacy to criticise RA or AFA after the complete and utter untruths you posted about the fanzine.

MUFC anti fascist

Dope for guns, lolipops for lucozade.

04.09.2010 15:37

Who benefits from rifts between anarchists and reds who together made an iron fist against fascists in the UK and inspired other groups abroad?

I think serious people should put aside political differences and think about that. It wasn’t for nothing that the 43 group had a no politics rule in their ranks.
I was not involved in AFA but anyone who was clear sighted enough to have traded in Lollipops for Lucozade and rolled up their sleeves and got stuck in gets my congratulations any day, be he anarchist, red or shaolin monk.

They form part of the historical tradition of resistance to fascism by ordinary people and stand alongside countless other forgotten fighters from Cable street, Ridley road, the Spanish anarchist militias, the Warsaw fighters and the French resistance groups. It doesn’t matter how much suspect shit gets posted here, it’s there to be ignored. Personally I have skipped over them to read the posts where people actually have something to say.

The other book “No Retreat” has received attacks in the form of slander against the authors as though that were more important than the content of the book. I have just ignored all that, too. It diverts from the real value of the book which I found inspirational. A truly great read. Anyone who reads it is given courage. It is uplifting and in a time where it looks like the fash are toying with the idea of coming back onto the streets, it could serve as a valuable recruitment tool for future anti fascists.

Gerard

Gerard

FAO manutd anifascist or whatever your calling yourself today

05.09.2010 09:30

"The fanzine did not end when dave was ran. It carried on for another 3 seasons. What is the point of such blatant and misleading untruths. You must be one of the clowns who walked away thinking it would collapse without your input. Big mistake.

Incidentally those who walked away were the hann tilsey clique and not the members of RA or AFA."

This makes me laugh on this sunday morning, this hardly requires an answer, people can check when Red Attitue was last sold and check the dates, ha ha Three seasons!!!

"I must be one of the clowns who walked away whilt also saying those that walked away are not members of AFA OR RA"

dave hann was amember of AFA/RA Glen was a member of AFA as was mike s, you contradict yourself. My last post also clearly states that I was RA myself, try reading careflly next time....

"Red Attitude was not dave hanns baby, it was an AFA project from beginning to end. When it started dave hann was an AFA member and bristol city supporter based in manchester."

Daves idea, dave started it dave was chief editor, I think that qualifies my statement whether or not it was his baby, It was a you say an AFA project start to finish, I have never said otherwise.Dave was as you say a Bristol city supporter but was also an Man Utd supporter and afterwards and FC Manchester supporter, perhaps you consider it a crime to change alleigance to different football clubs.

"I think your attempts to pass yourself off as an anarchist on here are now also grounded."

Moron, again read my last post,when have I tried to pass myself off as an anarchist?? nonsense if you can read then words like " We were Red Action when going out on red action only call outs (fascist invasion of kilburn for example) and contributions to Red Action newspaper etc"clearly state that I was a member of RA. Again read the post slowly or get your helper to read it for you.

"Regardless of what take people on here have about the book, YOU have no legitimacy to criticise RA or AFA after the complete and utter untruths you posted about the fanzine."

This however requires an answer. Unlike many of the anti RA posts on here I have tried to at least tell the truth and not engage in sectarianism, my initial posts were sinply corrections in the several posts I feel had to be made.If by utering an untruth makes my contribution to this thread to have little legitimacy in my ability to pass judgement on RA and AFA then I have to say this. If my last post is incorrect then your analogy may have some meaning however as it is the truth and can be varyfied by anyone in MANC Ra then what you say is then untrue and consequently you yourself have no legitamacy to critisise. People can soon find out whether or not Red Attitude carried on for three more seasons and once it is established who is telling the truth then I am sure peopled will find that it is you who are uttering untruths and subsequenlty anything you have to say has no legitamacy.

Roald Dahl

AK and the 'Lady Boy Stratagem!'

05.09.2010 12:48

FAO Roald Dahl

26.08.2010 08:26
a)Hopefully it is obvious to readers of this thread who is telling the truth and who it is making dishonest sectarian attacks.

b)It seems that Red Action's reputation for this, and for ruthlessly smearing their political opponents is well deserved.

c) We can't all be dismissed as agents for Gerry Gable - there is clear evidence that Red Action continued to have links to Searchlies long after they were proscribed by AFA,

d) and lets not forget that Hann and Tilzey were Red Action members.

e)Freedom are well aware of the controversy surrounding this book and searching questions ought to be asked as to the real reason they are publishing it - even in the face of opposition from half their own collective.

f)When AK and all the other publishers passed on the book, was it because they are working for Searchlies and want to see the book banned, burnt, or buried? No, they simply had more sense.

Fellow Anti-fascist

a) Out of the 350 odd posts thus far, the most 'nakedly dishonest sectarian attacks' have overwhelmingly been directed AGAINST Red Action. Just for the record.

b)And again the most relentless and 'ruthless smearing of opponents' on this board has been conducted AGAINST individuals believed to be associated with AFA/RA. The most recent example is against D.Clifford which must incorporate about a dozen posts all told and is a real beaut. But it was also anticipated, and straight I'm guessing, from the Searchlight stable.

a) It was Searchlight who broke off all links with AFA and RA in early 1993. Searchlight was behind the World in Action AFA 'expose' in October of the same year by the way.There was never any formal contact either direct or otherwise after that. AFA was forced to proscribe Searchlight in about 1996.

c) When Red Action are accused of 'ruthlessly smearing' individuals Hann and Tilzey are usually offered up as an example. But here we have a novel twist where the above named, as well as being victims of RA intolerance are also re-packaged as agents of the self same Red Action. This is having your cake and eating it.
Or in more sophisticated circles the ploy is otherwise known as the 'Lady Boy Stratagem' (LBS). Can't decide whether to defend them or attack them? Can't decide whether to do one or the other? Well by incorporating 'LBS' - you can have both - and at the same time!

e) The Freedom Collective has nine members. The original decision to publish was 5 for two against and two abstentions. After the 'ban the book' campaign instigated by Searchlight got going a couple (rather shamefully) lost their nerve. The second vote was 4 against and 5 in favour. Narrow, true - but still democratic. Just for the record.

f) AK did NOT pass on the book. The in-house reader (ex-AFA incidentally) described it as 'fucking brilliant -just as I remember it!' But for one reason or another AK couldn't fit it into the time-slot required by the authors - summer 09 -10. Just for the record.

JR

Fao bR

05.09.2010 16:20

Good post Roald Dahl

02.09.2010 09:45
From what I understand the book covers (and by no means exhaustively) London, Manchester, and Glasgow (for reasons obvious to ex AFA members). The anarchists barely get a mention apart from a few 'crusties' at Waterloo.

BR

It is equally evident you have been lied to. Covered in the book are the ANL squads, the founding of AFA as a national organization in 1985, the various campaigns, the problems that brought it to its knees by '88, the re-launch in London (with DAM at the top table) in 1989, the campaigns against the NF and Rememberance Day, Blood & Honour, the BNP and rights for whites, C18 etc plus the setting up of AFA in Scotland, and almost instantaneous crushing of the BNP there, the reforging of the Northern Network (under the tutelage of RA Manchester, DAM in Liverpool and Doncaster ably assisted by the Independent Anarchists in Bolton) and last and not least the restructuring of AFA in the West Midlands which proved to be tipping point for physical force nationalism as a whole. The West Midlands once WP departed were almost entirely anarchist btw. At the last count the book was the best part of 170,00 words so when you allege its not 'exhaustive' what exactly are you comparing it against? Apart from the Copsey book in which AFA get one chapter, the only other publications that attempt to cover this period are two fairly thin pamphlets (one of which is laudatory of RA) both produced by Dam members.

T.C

Naming

05.09.2010 18:25

Are anti-fascists named in this book?

oscar
mail e-mail: oscar716@yahoo.co.uk

Fao comment -

06.09.2010 12:11

....Please don't insult the intelligence of IM readers with silly conspiracy theories, this thread is simply too disjointed and dysfunctional to be just some 'anti-book' plot.

Comment

It would certainly be wrong to pretend that every anti-book poster is a Searchlight troll. The 'fraggle rock' element is undeniable: e.g. Raold Dahl That said the dominant and recurring themes can be fairly easily identified as emanating from Searchlight. The claim that 'Red Acton is anti-anarchist' seems to have tremendous resonance. It was used to good effect before and after Searchlight agents were routed in Leeds in 1997. However when it comes to a matter of evidence it is Searchlight itself with whom some anarchists are aligning themselves who have the anti-anarchist track record. Within AFA CW was one target and the DAM another.

Moreover leading militant anti-fascists, from both RA and DAM and independent researchers like Larry O' Hara (and old Searchlight adversary) are routinely named and denounced as rapists, proto-Nazis, touts, fellow travellers and worse. So you have to ask yourself who with any respect for anti-fascism would be so cavalier with the reputation of anti-fascism if not loyal to something other than anti-fascism?

Indeed the choice of language and degree of sheer hatred of many of the posts bears more than a passing resemblance to what actual fascists might say of the individuals traduced. But then again let's not forget Searchlight has over the years been more than happy to provide a safe haven for so called 'converted' fascists: Ray Hill, Tim Hepple. Matthew Collins etc. Though for PR reasons they are all presented as damascene conversions in reality they are more likely to have been compromised to one degree or another.

But if this thread is anything to go by there dosen't seem to be much evidence of a quantum leap does there? After all they hated and despised anti-fascists then and they hate and fear anti-fascists now. So if they have indeed converted dosen't it should make you ask to what exactly it is they have been converted to?

Ps don't be taken in by the 'disgruntled anti-fascist veterans' spin. All real anti-fascist will want the book to be published. Even if they don't agree 100% with every word of it is afterall still their story.

So it sort of begs the question - if Collins and co have indeed been converted what is i have they converted to?

Jackman

Freedom - A 'loss of nerve'.

06.09.2010 16:05

That's a very disingenuous account of a Freedom Collective meeting JR, not to mention very insulting to those who considered it better to pass on the book. The first most collective members knew of this book's existence was when it was publicised. At this time no formal decision had been taken as to whether it would be published by Freedom or not. I can assure you that Searchlight played no part whatsoever in the discussions, so please don't be so patronising. While a show of hands was taken at the first meeting, it was considered necessary for collective members to at least have the opportunity to look at the book before such an important decision was taken. Since the authors had neglected to mention that the book was already under consideration by AK Press it was also necessary to speak to AK. The final vote reflects genuine opinion (informed in some cases by a look at the book) not any 'loss of nerve' as you falsely claim.

@

Another symbiotic relationship?

06.09.2010 17:43

Red Action's hysterical squealing about a Searchlight-controlled 'plot' to 'suppress' is getting to sound a bit like Searchlight's constant 'bigging-up' of Redwatch - only with even less substance. What would you do without Searchlight boys? The reality is that in anarchist circles Gable has even less credibility than you do.

rude-boy

Sectarianism

06.09.2010 22:50

Arguably, it is sectarian for Red Action to attack their own former members. And for anarchists to attack Freedom. But since we have very different politics and have not been in any form of alliance for a very long time (when arguably we got shit on) why is it sectarian for anarchists to slag off Red Action. They are not part of our movement, and they are no more comrades than the SWP are.

Anarchist

Searchlight

07.09.2010 06:20

Searchlight are scum, always have been. Why the fuck AFA worked with them especially after the re-launch I'll never know. But all this conspiracy talk is just bollocks, why should Searblight with all their resources confine themselves to this one thread? The books a done deal, but there are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Red Action that have nothing to do with Searchlight.

class war

A question for any RA members

07.09.2010 09:38

Someone previously stated that Tilzey was proscribed from AFA /Red Action for his searchlight work ,can you answer why he's being invited to a meeting in 1996 about the fanzine when he was proscribed and RA had zero to do with Searchlight . I've got a vague recollection of seeing his name as being on the editorial board of Red Attitude though it was a long time ago so I'm sure Dennis or Gary or whoever will correct me .if I'm wrong

Confused of Chorley

Malcolm

07.09.2010 15:08

Funny to hear Malcolm from Doncaster got involved with AFA. When I knew him in the early 80's he was one of those anarchists who always had to stress that he hated 'communists' as much as fascists. He was involved with an anti-soviet group, a bit of a mixed bunch, but a perfectly principled position IMO. I remember they had some run-ins with Arthur Scargill, who was very pro-Soviet. Sounds like this book will make interesting reading. I was a bit too old for street-fighting by the time AFA came along I'm afraid, but did my bit in earlier times.

Oes

Another history of AFA

07.09.2010 15:49

Follow the link below for an academic precis of the AFA phenomenom. May be of interest to some on here.

http://www.amielandmelburn.org.uk/collections/soundings/14_53.pdf

Interested Observer

more facts

07.09.2010 22:58

Continuing in the spirit of clearing up/rebutting the factual inaccuracies that have been thrown around on this thread - I think it's worth responding to something that's been a bit of a common theme here. This is the claim that most members of the Freedom collective were not aware of the book's existence until it was publicised on their own website, or that only one person from FP has been involved in, and supportive of, the book. This post is partly in response to "@"'s post above but also to the various others throughout this thread that are along the same theme

FP were first approached to see if they would be interested in this book on 21st November 2009 (I know this because it was me who approached them - and contrary to '@'s suggestion above, the prior engagement with/by AK Press was mentioned on this initial contact)

The advert on Freedom's website for the book was put up on the 24th May 2010

In this intervening period we had numerous meetings with at least three members of the collective in relation to the book (in addition at various points of these meetings, two other members of the collective were also referred to in relation to tasks which would be carried out). Are you seriously suggesting that in this 6 month period between initial contact and the advert going up, no other members of the collective were aware of the book? Are you seriously suggesting that at no point in any of the monthly collective meetings that FP had in that period was the book mentioned or discussed once?

Subsequent to the advert going up, at least two other members of the collective have also been involved in meetings with us. All 5 of these people have played various roles and made various contributions towards getting the book 'on the shelves'

The notion that either 'most' of the collective didn't know about the book's existence before it was publicised (as '@' suggests above) or that only one person at FP is behind it, or has been involved with it, (as many posts in this thread have suggested) is either misinformed nonsense or deliberate misinformation

Ross

Freedom

08.09.2010 12:42

I really don't see why you continue to feel it necessary to tell lies about this 'Ross'. Red Action have got a good deal from Freedom, your long-delayed book should be out within the month, isn't that enough?

@

So many lies

08.09.2010 15:34

If Ross is too be believed [and Im not sure he is] it means that Freedom had plenty of time for the promised "consultation period" they made such a meal of but then skipped. With some many lies been told whose going to believe even half the stuff in this book. Freedoms reputation has been very badly tarnished by all this. When you start telling lies it never stops.

Andy

Attn: TAL

08.09.2010 16:52

Thanks for putting up that link to your fanzine. I enjoyed reading it specially the interveiw with Paul Heaton. Mind you, I showed it to some old BBC lads who I know know him and they did not have a good word to say about him, saying he was a 'total shit-out' and a coward. They told me a few funny stories about how they'd make him sing and how he'd hide when there was bother! Fuck fighting over football!

Up the Blades!

responses

09.09.2010 06:15

@

you refer to so many lies in my post - point out which specific things you are referring to?

Andy

The consultation period (outlined to in post 4 of this thread) was requested by FP, and carried out by FP in March & April of this year - a good month or so before the advert for the book was advertised on the FP website.

Why do you insist on pushing the lie that Freedom skipped this process?

Ross

Picking up where I left off earlier.....

09.09.2010 22:37

I take a holiday and Im about 100 posts adrift. Seems almost rude to drag the forum back a few weeks, but why not.

My point about the Northern Network and Bolton is that it highlighted that the BNP change of policy had already impacted on the NN. Were the BNP in Bolton? No, C18 minding a loyalist march. The previous big encounter was the Bloody Sunday march in Mancester early in 1995.

Set this against the activity of the NN against the BNP in 93/94 and you get the jist of the point I was making.

The equation still sits the same. Unless you/we are prepared to put a radical alternative in front of the working class, that is meaningful and relevant, then we are fucked. Its win win for them.

Screaming about a book which will put some politial history of the movement out there for the first time, is not the way forward. Anarchist publishers should be proud to put this book out. And as for those who oppose it, well Im sure despite your opposition you will still read it.

We can rejoin the debate then.

Yozzer

Yozzer

Lie Detector

10.09.2010 06:21

"...Knowing the sensitivities involved, we agreed with the book's authors to consult with people in the anarchist movement, particularly those who had been involved in AFA, before going ahead. We prematurely announced on the 25th May on the Freedom Press website and elsewhere that we would publish the book and gave a pre-publication offer before the consultation process had occurred or a final decision taken by the Freedom Collective..." - Statement from the Freedom Collective published in Freedom 19th June 2010.

Lie Detector

Freedom

10.09.2010 10:18

It's very telling the way Red Action think they know more about what is going on at Freedom than the anarchos do.

JJ

Searchlight's sleazy stratagem explained

10.09.2010 12:26

Searchlight

07.09.2010 06:20
Searchlight are scum, always have been. Why the fuck AFA worked with them especially after the re-launch I'll never know. But all this conspiracy talk is just bollocks, why should Searblight with all their resources confine themselves to this one thread? The books a done deal, but there are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Red Action that have nothing to do with Searchlight.

class war

'Why would Searchlight confine themselves to this thread? Or indeed this site? Well, your not the first one to pose this question, but as far as I can see the answer is pretty straightforward. First off the primary targets in this phase are - the publishers. Being anarchists, the best way to bring pressure to bear is to whip up opposition against the publication of the book among anarchists.

This is fairly easily done by Searchlight operatives posing as outraged anarchists/outraged AFA vets denouncing the book as 'anti-anarchist' and the finger pointed at the publishers for 'betraying the anarchist movement' and drumming up opposition.

As FP, would testify privately, this site though it itself obscure, has proved more than adequate in this regard. There has also been substantial pressure put on them not to publish via email, letter phone calls and even personal visits.

Again, known Searchlight personnel have been prominent in this regard.

There is a another reason why Searchlight would want to confine the campaign to this thread/site - it is adequate for their purposes but there is the added advantage that the controversy is pretty much confined to this site.

What they wouldn't want, is for the attacks to go mainstream and thereby provide the book with the much prized 'oxygen of publicity'. Not counting any chickens, but it would appear that this phase is drawing to a close. The next stage will no doubt involve an attacks on the integrity of the contributors (the dozen posts against dc recently are a sample of what to expect).

For me the biggest mistake Searchlight made was early on when the fingered individuals as 'bad anarchists' - in order to distinguish them from anarchism per se. The individuals attacked were 1) highly regarded with AFA, but 2) were also prominent in preventing pseudo anarchists slipping back into positions of influence in the Northern Network after the outing out of the Searchlight dominated branches in 1997. Hence their character assassination of IF and MA on here.

This was a rare slip up, as by doing so they showed their hand. After all who else would be motivated?

Or maybe some would still like the anarchist movement to take all the credit for this sleazy stratagem? If so, I trust we'll all know their real loyalties second time round.

JR

11.09.2010 08:18

That post has to be the biggest load of contradictory bollocks on this entire thread!

Bobby Ewing

you can't handle the truth!

11.09.2010 12:59

@ Lie Detector

On 22nd May, 2 days before the book was advertised on the FP website (it first went up on the 24th May, not the 25th per the thing you quoted) - a member of Sol Fed wrote the following on Libcom:-

"Freedom are going to publish it, and before it went to press they did contact people to check whether details in the book were correct. I circulated the email within SF a couple of months back"

http://libcom.org/forums/history-culture/beating-fascists-authorised-history-anti-fascist-action-22052010#comment-376557

So here we have a member of Sol Fed speaking about how they circulated something from Freedom two months prior to the advert going up. But you (and others here) still, rather foolishly, maintain that there was no consultation whatsoever prior to the advert going up.

@ JJ

I don't claim to know more about what is going on in Freedom than the 'anarchos' do. I do however know more about what is going on in relation to the publication of this book, and Freedom Press's involvement in it, than most, if not all, 'anarchos' who have been posting on this thread. This knowledge is through first hand experience of being involved in that process from the very beginning - where are your 'facts' coming from?

@ '@'

I'm still waiting for you to point out what in particular you claim are lies in my previous post. Even the message posted above by Lie Detector merely points to the fact that the book was advertised before a final decision was taken by the Freedom Collective - you on the other hand claim that most of the collective were unaware of the book until it was advertised on their website. So again, are you seriously suggesting that in the 6 months between initial contact with Freedom in November 2009 and the advert going up in May 2010 that most of the members of the collective were unaware of the book's existence? You're saying it was not mentioned once at any of the monthy collective meetings on the first monday of the month? And that despite communications from freedom collective members to the various anarchist federations in March/April, most of the collective themselves somehow remained blissfully unaware of the book's existence?

Ross

More Red Action bollocks

11.09.2010 21:02

So lets get this right - this is all a Searbhlight plot to 'whip up opposition' among anarchists which they've chosen to fight on an obscure corner of indymedia cos they only want to publicise their 'hysterical' campaign a little bit, aod their fiendish master-stroke is to say bad things about 2 old DAM members who may or may not be mentioned in the book! What utter bollocks! You lot are as nutty as the 9-11 'truth' movement!

NSG

To be taken with a large pinch of salt

12.09.2010 00:22

Having seen the way Red Action have lied their way through this thread I don't expect too much in the way of honesty from this book.

Old AFA

To be taken with a large pinch of salt

12.09.2010 00:22

Having seen the way Red Action have lied their way through this thread I don't expect too much in the way of honesty from this book.

Old AFA

Consultation

12.09.2010 05:41

My previous post is a direct quote from a public statement by the Freedom Collective, the only one they have made on this affair as far as I'm aware. It is absolutely unequivocal - the book was advertised prematurely BEFORE the proposed consultation had occurred.

Lie Detector

Freedom Collective meetings

12.09.2010 09:27

All Freedom Collective meetings are minuted. The book was not discussed at a single collective meeting prior to it being advertized. Nor was anything known about it by most collective members before that. It was advertized on the website by someone who did not have the approval or consent of the Freedom Collective. Anarchists do well to question what is happening there.

@

Hardly a consensus

12.09.2010 10:01

Bearing in mind the implications and importance of the decision, how can a 5-4 vote be an acceptable collective decision? Being Marxists, Red Action wouldn't even understand why such a vote would be unacceptable, but it should be obvious to any Anarchist. Presumably, following the vote (which for vasious reasons it might be argued wasn't fair anyway) the 4 dissenting collective members had a choice of either supqorting a project they disagreed with or resigning. This is fundamentally un-Anarchist. What kind of society do Freedom believe in if their collective is run in such a way? No lectures on Anarchism from Marxists please, this post is aimed at Anarchists.

Peter Kropotkin turns in his grave

Statement

12.09.2010 14:00

That statement from Freedom seems pretty clear. If there was a 'consultation period' why would Freedom issue a statement saying there wasn't, it hardly shows them in a good light? I think the plan had been to provide copies of the manuscript so as to get informed feedback, but that didn't happen. It looks to me like the advert for the book was written by a Red Action person rather than by someone at Freedom and it's plain wrong that it was advertised before a decision had been properly taken.

Andy

The Rat-catcher & The Rat

12.09.2010 14:42

Sounds to me like the Rat-Catcher has got a pet rat installed at Freedom bookshop.

Baz

NSG Trolling. Why?

12.09.2010 20:38

NSG, All your posts contain venom for RA and Freedom Press. Your hostility is palpable and all, curiously, because of a book project. We are a bitter Troll aren’t we.
Now, the question is, why would someone want to troll here? Who could get so worked up about an anti-fascist book that they feel they have to fire off post after post of bitterness? And as I have said before, Who benefits from this “Divide and rule tactic” between Anarchist and Marxist?

Apart from very infantile sectarianism I can only think of two motives.
1. You got bashed by AFA in the past and so are a Fash. (A red uppercut followed by an anarchist boot to the head that you still lose sleep over) or
2. They are right about Searchlight having a divisive agenda.

HNH (Searchlight) played a divisive role in Bradford recently campaigning for a Ban and to keep people away from any counter demos when the EDL went there on the 28th of august. If locals and non aligned anti fascists had listened to such nonsense the attempted EDL rampage when some 100 or so escaped from their play pen, wouldn’t have been stopped in it’s tracks in such an abrupt way. In fact the police only intervened to save them from an even worse beating. Look for the Bradford POW video on youtube.

Gerard

Gerard

I.F.

12.09.2010 23:44

I don't know if I.F. was highly regarded within AFA or not, nor do I really care. Her role as an ALF grass is well documented in Keith Mann's book on the ALF. Not accepting something which is so easy to prove is only going to lead to embarrassment.

Beagle

Gerard - The Stupid Boy returns

13.09.2010 09:13

And you haven't made one intelligent comment yet Gerard! You don't like what I have to say so I must be a Searchlight/fascist troll?! How pathetic, that's not analysis that's smear, and a baseless one at that. Since you were obviously in nappies when AFA was around, and have nothing intelligent to contribute, why don't you leave this thread to the grown-ups, this ir not your first attempt to try and de-rail it?

NSG

Old dogs fighting over the bones of AFA

13.09.2010 13:07

While it’s depressing and unpleasant to witness old dogs fighting over the bones of AFA, there is a certain inevitability to it. As a marriage AFA achieved a great deal, but there were some nasty spats and a messy divorce. When the ‘No Retreat’ book was coming out there was huge opposition (and an almost hysterical campaign against it) from the authors former comrades in Red Action, while the anarchists viewed it with calm and unconcerned detachment. When the book appeared, the content was regarded by anarchist former AFA members as “about what you’d expect”. It told the stories of two former SWP and Red Action members who were involved in AFA, unsurprisingly the anarchists barely got a look in. It may also have contained moments of fantasy (even years of it some might say) and strayed from the truth, but at least it had the authors names on the cover. Were this book not being published by Freedom Press I see no reason why anarchists would not view it with the same sang-froid they had shown towards the Hann-Tilzey book. The difference is that Freedom’s role as publisher validates this version of the AFA story, a story written by Red Action members, and understandably telling the tale from their point of view. It is unsurprising that some anarchist antifascists clearly consider that Freedom have acted treacherously, other anarchists may also feel they are misusing funds and resources with which the current Freedom Collective were entrusted by the wider anarchist movement. At the very least they have dragged anarchists into an unpleasant row, which has opened up old wounds while achieving very little apart from score-settling, and where anarchists are smeared and/or patronised as the lapdogs of Searchlight (a nefarious entity anarchists were among the first to expose) by Freedom’s new-found bed-fellows. The arguments surrounding the book are likely to get even worse once it is actually published. The clumsiness and carelessness of a bad decision, very badly taken, has contributed significantly to the ill feeling surrounding this project. It says a lot that with a few exceptions, Red Action appear to be Freedom’s only defenders in this affair, something which will only damn them even further in the eyes of anarchists. I will certainly read this book when it appears, I may even enjoy it, I just wish it wasn’t being published by Freedom.

anarchist

A listing of the lies, smears & fabrications AGAINST the book

13.09.2010 14:37

To be taken with a large pinch of salt

12.09.2010 00:22
Having seen the way Red Action have lied their way through this thread I don't expect too much in the way of honesty from this book.

Old AFA

Indeed, there has been many lies told on here. But as with the smearing of individuals anti-fascist (rapists, grasses, gangsters etc) the lies and smears have exclusively come from the one corner - yours.

We have had generic examples repeated in so many different ways that they must make up 50% of the posts.

1. that 'RA closed down AFA' - LIE

2. That RA, individual contributors and the book, is 'anti-anarchist' - LIE

3. That the BNP did not decisively change strategy in the mid-1990's -LIE

...

And then working from the bottom up we have a selection of some over-reaching fabrications that are worth quoting:

That RA closed down MUFC fanzine RED ATTITUDE in 1996 - LIE

That an electoral strategy (also referred to ignrantly as 'electoralism') was de facto anti-anarchist -LIE

That AFA continued to have a relationship with Searchlight after proscription of latter in 1996 - LIE

That AK refused to publish book - LIE...

...there are many many more of course (all the bollocks about FP is a section in itself) but these will do for now.

Jackman

Accountability

13.09.2010 14:55

I don't know what this book contains - the massive row on here may be a storm in a teacup - But if it does contain lies and smears against Anarchists Freedom will be fully responsible and deserve to be held accountable by the Anarchist movement. Frankly, I'm somewhat surprised by Freedom as over the past decade they have done a lot of damage to repair the damage caused by the sectarian reputation they acquired under Vernon Richards.

Ann Archie

simple questions

13.09.2010 20:59

@ Lie Detector

"My previous post is a direct quote from a public statement by the Freedom Collective, the only one they have made on this affair as far as I'm aware. It is absolutely unequivocal"

Do you mean the only statement they have made on the affair besides the one made on post 4 (part 3) of this thread - which was also absolutely unequivocal - have a read of it.

Are you therefore, categorically, unequivocally and with 100% certainty saying that prior to the book being publicised there was no communication circulated within Sol Fed, from freedom, seeking feedback in relation to their intention to publish this book? A simple yes or no will do

@ '@'

were you present at all the freedom collective meetings in the 6 month period referred to? again a simple yes or no will do

Ross

Why weren,t the anarchists asked to contribute?

13.09.2010 22:19

If the book contained its fair share of contributions by anarchists who was in AFA i,d say fair enough for freedom to publish it. As it doesn,t tho, what are they thinking of

SHARPy

Post 4

14.09.2010 02:38

As I think Ross is probably well aware, post 4 on this thread was NOT made by the Freedom Collective. The only statement issued is the one printed in Freedom.

Lie Detector

Very poor

14.09.2010 10:04

That's a rather desperate post jackman.

NSG

FAO jackman

14.09.2010 10:25

Jackman, I've missed a lot of this debate, but I've had a good look through it. I can't actually see any posts arguing that the BNP didn't change policy in the mid-90's though. To which posts are you referring?

Independent Socialist

Closing down AFA

14.09.2010 11:08

Red Action keep saying that they didn’t ‘close down’ AFA. They have admitted ‘closing down’ the Leeds and Huddersfield branches, supposedly because of ‘Searchlight interference’ (though the very day before they received their letter of expulsion Leeds AFA were with Red Action on a mobilisation in London, with nothing being said). This in turn led to the loss of the Nottingham branch, and caused a lot of disaffection within the Northern Network. Red Action are also accused of closing down the South London branch, were they Searchlight assets too? Red Action held an iron grip over the infrastructure, policies, and finances of AFA – Only they were in a position to close AFA down, apparently taking AFA’s assets with them into the IWCA without any democratic mandate from AFA’s membership. Did Red Action close AFA down? Of course they did.

Northern Uproar

Freedom Press comment on this thread

14.09.2010 11:17

The comment on this thread supposedly from Freedom Press is a fake and factually incorrect.

"is there any unresolved issues that would stop an anarchist publishers publishing such a book?" (Sic.)

Clearly there are, hence the fact that this thread has now exceeded 400 posts.

London Eye

Consultation....

14.09.2010 13:07

Can someone from freedom please deny or confirm that one individual advertised this book on the website before consulting anyone.....even the collective at freedom. Time for truth. Just be honest sir.

Bored.

FAO SHARPY

14.09.2010 18:09

Fair point mate. AFA was a joint project with the reds n the anarchos. This book ain't its just the reds version. So why is the anarchos publishing it

Black Bat

the answer came there none

15.09.2010 06:59

@ Lie Detector

You seem to have conveniently missed the question I posed in my last post to you, which was in connection to your previous claims about consultation - let me repeat it:-

Are you therefore, categorically, unequivocally and with 100% certainty saying that prior to the book being publicised there was no communication circulated within Sol Fed, from freedom, seeking feedback in relation to their intention to publish this book? A simple yes or no will do

@ '@'

Cat got your tongue?

were you present at all the freedom collective meetings in the 6 month period referred to? again a simple yes or no will do

Ross

still not anwered

15.09.2010 12:01

Can any of the old red action people answer why aftter Tilzey and searchlight were dumped by red action early 9o's He was still being invited to meetings regarding Dave Hahn /red attitude before Daves trial as stated by a previous RA member ? Was Tilzey a part of red attitute ? I remember being told informally by John the Book [never knew his real name but he's been posting on here ] not to contact Tilzey as his family were being hassled by the fash and he's dropped out ,obvious bollocks but I never knew different at the time ...maybe Steve can fill us in on the chronology of his expulsion and any consequent dealings with RA ,informally or not ,

Still fighting

FAO Independent socialist

15.09.2010 13:15

AFA myths

15.08.2010 16:39
Theres a lot of talk about the BNP rethring from the streets but thats a load of bollocks. Even today they still have street stalls, leafleting ect, and there are still blood & honour gigs and stuff going. If Red Action are the anti-fascists they say why aren't they helping to confront them.

Sam Neil

Well I.S. here is one comment I found, (I'm sure there are others) but that's not the point. All 'Sam Neil' does is make explicit what the vast majority of those who oppose the book HAVE to agree with implicitly: that the BNP 'are still on the streets' and AFA aren't.

Indeed much of the attack on the book is related to the grotesque game of pretend that the BNP did not dramatically alter strategy at all - but AFA did!

Supposedly AfA changed strategy at the behest of RA, in the process 'betraying their anarchist comrades' and allowing the BNP a free run. This utterly bizarre topsy turvy view is what underpins the opposition to the book. Because without this underpinning what is the argument against the RA role? That they weren't anarchist?

The harsh reality is that the BNP did change strategy and as a result anti-fascism has not been able to lay a significant finger on them in the 15 years since. Its as simple as that. What the book explains is why it happened, what caused it to happen and interviews some of the key players that caused it to happen as described. The only people who have a vested interest in the decrying the publication are presumably the individuals and organisations with the most invested in the fantasy version of the AFA trajectory.

Jackman

Fao Northern Upstart

15.09.2010 14:06

Closing down AFA

14.09.2010 11:08
Red Action keep saying that they didn’t ‘close down’ AFA. They have admitted ‘closing down’ the Leeds and Huddersfield branches, supposedly because of ‘Searchlight interference’ (though the very day before they received their letter of expulsion Leeds AFA were with Red Action on a mobilisation in London, with nothing being said). This in turn led to the loss of the Nottingham branch, and caused a lot of disaffection within the Northern Network. Red Action are also accused of closing down the South London branch, were they Searchlight assets too? Red Action held an iron grip over the infrastructure, policies, and finances of AFA – Only they were in a position to close AFA down, apparently taking AFA’s assets with them into the IWCA without any democratic mandate from AFA’s membership. Did Red Action close AFA down? Of course they did.

Northern Uproar

1. Leeds/Huddersfield was not closed down. It was suspended and individuals invited to re-apply. A handful did so.

2. Leeds/Huddersfield was not closed down by Red Action.

3. The branch suspended by the AFA National Organisation as a result of an inquiry that found that Leeds/Huddersfield was effectively a Searchlight front. Through L/H, Searchlight was attempting to manipulate AFA to meet its own agenda. For example leading a strong AFA stewards group away from confrontation with the BNP on the one hand while attempting to mobilise AFA against a phantom BNP initiative on the other.

4. Complaints from AFA members within Leeds who were some of the principle critics of the Searchlight operation was what led to the initial inquiry. In 1996 there were numerous complaints of infrequent branch meetings, no minutes kept and the membership kept in the dark, in short that it was accused of being 'a state within a state' and that a Northern Network meeting had not taken place for 6 months etc

5. South London was not closed down by RA. All the smaller London branches including north, east and west, were re-amalgamated into one large London AFA branch for organisational reasons and all at the same time.

One of the many curious aspects of the 'RA closed AFA down' script is that no one has attempted to put a date on this nefarious act. 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001...?

Surely if you are so sure it happened you could tell us when?

JR

Wombling around

15.09.2010 14:40

It says on libcom that this book is/has been edited for Freedom by one of the Wombles. If true that explains a lot - taking their inspiration from a group of Italian Stalinist state-assets, the Wombles were good self-publicists but politically stupid. I don't see how any of their ex members would be qualified to edit this book' but they'd be clueless enough to work with Red action and RA are obviously just desprate to get their bool published.

Uncle Bulgaria

Jackman

16.09.2010 00:59

Looks like you've been caught out in another lie Jackman! Meanwhile, your mate Ross is beginning to sound more and more like a copper. Looking back up this thread I'd say there's still a few unanswered questions regarding Dave Hann's court case.

NSG

making good use of the things that you find

16.09.2010 06:57

@ Uncle Bulgaria

"It says on libcom that this book is/has been edited for Freedom by one of the Wombles"

This is nonsense

Ross

FAO Jackman

16.09.2010 11:15

Surely you can find a better quote to back up your argument than the one from Sam Neil, which says something quite different to what you claimed Jackman. I’ve looked through this thread though, and I also can’t find comments from anyone claiming the BNP did not change tactics in the mid-1990’s, so I think you need to either provide evidence for your claim or accept that you were mistaken.

Sam Neil is quite correct, while the BNP may have stopped marching and concentrated on electoral politics, they never completely abandoned the streets in the way that Red Action (NOT AFA) have claimed. Today they still regularly have street-stalls and go out canvassing and leafleting. They have also occasionally come out onto the streets in bigger number, for example in support of Nick Griffin in Leeds, and more militantly in Stoke. As Sam Neil says, ‘Blood & Honour’ still hold gigs, while other fascist groups, such as the NF (who march annually in Newcastle) and miniscule BPP still attempt to capture ‘street presence’. Then of course there is the EDL and the ENR. Since AFA’s collapse, what militant opposition there has been to the fascists has been thinly spread. It is not so much that the BNP have been given free-rein, but that the UAF/SWP/ANL have. For young people today wanting to combat fascism there is little visible militant opposition to them, and with which they meet easily get involved.

It wasn’t only the Anarchists who didn’t support the IWCA, and thought that AFA needed to maintain the capacity to combat fascism on the streets as well as ideologically, and if Red Action wanted to flirt with electoral politics there is no reason why they had to drag AFA with them. Socialists and even some members of Red Action agreed with the Anarchists on this. Claims about the AFA National Charter giving Red Action a mandate to go into electoral politics are spurious, and if electoral ambitions had been explicit in the National Charter it is unlikely AFA would have ever had Anarchist support.

Bearing in mind the tone of the discussion on here, I too have reached the conclusion that there will be little honesty in this book, what there will be is a self-serving justification for Red Action betraying their comrades in AFA.

An Anarchist and an Anti-fascist

Freedom statement

16.09.2010 12:32

The Freedom statement is quite clear Ross, I don't understand why you're having so much difficulty reading it. Freedom have accepted that the consultation period they originally proposed was neglected, so why can't you?

Lie Detector

Underground, Overground

16.09.2010 14:13

I have no idea what a 'Womble' is (other than a furry creature who apparently lives on Wimbledon Common) but thank you for the steer to libcom where there was actually some intelligent, rational discussion about this book (from a variety of Anarchists mostly).

http://libcom.org/forums/history-culture/beating-fascists-authorised-history-anti-fascist-action-22052010

Where should I look to see this womble reference?

And why would 'Red Action' hand over 'editing' of this book to somebody else - especially to some anarchists when apparently they 'hate all anarchists'?

I realise it is hard for you, Uncle Bulgaria, to get an overview from Wimbledon, but you really should try to get out more

Wombles?

The AFA story

16.09.2010 19:09

The oft repeated notion that there is an 'anarchist history of AFA' versus 'a Red Action version of AFA' and that it was always 'a joint enterprise' is a serious re-writing of history.

There IS an AFA story to which many contributed. That is the story of militant anti-fascism. Which set out to confront fascism physically and ideologically on the streets. But Is their 'a red flag version' and 'black flag version' and many posts on here contend? And if there is they can exist only as adversaries?

No. And no again. Want to know why?

Because it was necessarily a collaborative effort which policy usually implemented at a regional level. Activity by branches on their own was unusual. In short all major activities were done jointly. So the red flag and black flag division of labour is a sectarian smokescreen.

It is a sectarian smokescreen because though only formed in 1985, by early 1986 all anarchist organisations had actually withdrawn (for reasons previously addressed) from AFA. So as a consequence between 1986 and 1989 there was anarchist involvement at all at the top table.

In late 1989 AFA was relaunched. But of all the anarchist groups nationally only the DAM signed-up. Any other anarchist affiliates after that were either individual or local groups as in Bolton.

Then sometime in the mid 1990's after sterling service the DAM suddenly folded.

The grouping re-formed out of remnants of the DAM did NOT affiliate to AFA.

When in 1989 AFA was re-launched in London by Red Action, militant anti-fascism was re-defined. Out of the entire left only Workers Power and the DAM joined up. Workers Power subsequently left to join the ANL in late 1992. And the DAM folded in 1995.

Did AFA fold? No. But, crucially the BNP did. In terms of strategy at least.

To recap AFA was formed by a wide variety of groups, prominent among them, the NMP, CARF, Searchlight the Refugee Forum, there was backing and even funding from members of the European Parliament and an MP was honorary secretary.

So to narrow it down to just the DAM or indeed 'anarchists' and Red Action (as Wikipedia does for instance), is deeply flawed in critical ways. First off it was far wider than both. For instance between 85 -89 out of twenty two delegates on the National Steering Committee RA had - 2. And not one of the twenty others were anarchist.

So the true story of AFA deserves to be told, but for the reasons outlined it must necessarily be the WHOLE story from beginning to end, for justice to be done, and be seen to be done.

Historian

still the answers came there none

17.09.2010 07:08

@ Lie Detector

I have no difficulty whatsoever in reading the statement - why do you have a difficulty in a simple yes or no answer to my question to you? :-

Are you therefore, categorically, unequivocally and with 100% certainty saying that prior to the book being publicised there was no communication circulated within Sol Fed, from freedom, seeking feedback in relation to their intention to publish this book?

Remember the original discussion started by many on here claimed that no consultation occurred whatsoever prior to the book being publicised - if you are all now backing down on this specific claim due to the refusal to answer the simple question above, then fair enough - i'll accept your implicit apology for, knowingly or otherwise, spreading mis-information and accusing me of lying

@ '@'

in your own time mate - a simple yes or no

@ NSG

you don't begrudge me asking a few simple questions of those who accuse me of lying surely?

Ross

Raold

17.09.2010 07:12

Raold where is your long awaited response to the posts that show you have been economical with the truth, and inventing history...revisionism?

Wheres the apology.

Is it true you had a phone call telling you not to post anymore cos you made such a dick of yourself, and by association, your friends in the anti book lobby.

Jon Priestlies

Giving the game away!

17.09.2010 12:11

"Sam Neil is quite correct, while the BNP may have stopped marching and concentrated on electoral politics, they never completely abandoned the streets in the way that Red Action (NOT AFA) have claimed. Today they still regularly have street-stalls and go out canvassing and leafleting."

An Anarchist and an Anti-fascist

Only a complete fool or someone who has never faced down the fash would employ an argument like that. 'They still go out canvassing and leafletting' and probably go shopping as well. The bastards!

Of course the use the streets - legally! What the abandoned was the 'strategy of controlling the streets - 'street warfare'! To repeat only some lightweight who has never seen the fascists close up would be capable of confusing the present day BNP with the other. Talk about giving the game away.

Chaney

A book before your eyes!

17.09.2010 14:44

why doesn't some enterprising soul take all these post's and make a book of them? you could beat the other mob to it!

Ah, but then someone would have to put their real name to it and stand over what they had written, wouldn't they? perhaps not.

Famous Seamus

Chaney

18.09.2010 23:42

There are still anti-fascists willing to get out and have it with fascist groups while you sit at home in your shit-stained knickers gobbing off on the internet and pretending there's nothing going on on the streets anymore. What use have the IWCA and the rest of you lazy cowards been against the BNP? You've been sat on your arses talking about the 'olden days' for 15 years now. No wonder this book is so important to you, you've got fuck all else.

Anti-fascist

The BNP lead Red Action around by the nose

19.09.2010 00:42

So (according to Chaney) Red Action are quite happy to have the BNP going out leafleting, canvassing, selling papers, doing stalls on the streets - just so long as its "LEGAL"?! How absolutely pathetic! This makes the UAF look like militant antifascists!

Not one of Gary O'Shea's sock puppets

Sol-Fed

19.09.2010 10:33

Don't know why you think that Libcom post about Sol-Fed is such a big deal Ross, it's made by the same poster as put up the claim the book was being edited by an ex-Womble. Libcom is notorious for containing all sorts of bollocks. As for Sol-Fed, they're a miniscule organhsation that had nothing to do with AFA.

Lee

What a tedious thread!

19.09.2010 11:09

What a tedious thread! At least Freedom can't say they haven't been told.

Jam Butty Miner

Ross

19.09.2010 12:03

If you ever manage to come up with anything new Ross, you may get a response from me. I'm sure that anyone reading this thread can read the Freedom statement themselves.

Lie Detector

Attn rufty-tufty anti-fascist

19.09.2010 18:25

beautifully crafted quote - "There are still anti-fascists willing to get out and have it with fascist groups while you sit at home in your shit-stained knickers gobbing off on the internet and pretending there's nothing going on on the streets anymore. "

My. my, we have got our knickers in a twist haven't we? But it is the weekend so maybe you've been at the Buckie.

Obviously, we are hiding because we are all too...

old

fat

drunken

cowardly

and wear leather jackets

etc etc

or in the case of posters like Gerard he is derided for being too young (and posibly fit, sober and stylish?) or Freedom Press who are dismissed as 'johnny come lately's

Yep, we're doing fuck all... Thus leaving the field free for you to list your long and distinguished 'Roll of Battle Honours'...

well there was...

and then we...

and erm... erm...

I shall await your incisive, witty reply... but fear I shan't be able to hold either my breath or my laughter long enough to receive your list. Feel free to write it in big letters... on the back of a postage stamp.

Instead of slagging off people who did the business (and have now written their history) why are you not out creating a bit of history of your own? Or indeed writing your own. You are an embarrassment to the noble cause of anarchism and anti-fascism - but a true champion of Anti-anything I can't control. And you have the cheek to rant about the people (Reds, Anarcho's, Socialists and non-aligned) who both created the history and have now written it.

Do you have any POLITICAL contribution to make? or are you content to spout infantlie bile and throw your little hissy fit? you stupid boy.

Famous Seamus

Spitting The Dummy

19.09.2010 21:13

@ Antifascist - Deary me mate, you ought to lie down and take a breather.

Do you really think that no-one who was previously involved with Red Action is involved anywhere in the country in the current fight against fascism?

I suggest that you check what's happening in Scotland, the Midlands, parts of London - to name but three areas - where former members and associates of Red Action are still very active anti-fascists.

Do you honestly believe that the views here purporting to be from anarchists are truly representative of ALL anarchists?

I give one easily checkable example to nail this idea that ALL anarchists are opposed to the book and Freedom's decision to publish it. Check with your anarchist comrades in the West Midlands, specifically those from the Birmingham and Wolverhampton areas. These are comrades with impeccable anti-fascist and anarchist credentials, who worked with AFA in the past, rejected the turn towards the IWCA, went their own way, worked with Antifa, and have come around a full circle to embrace the original IWCA founding statement and reforge links with former AFA and Red Action comrades.

Obviously these class struggle anarchists must now be 'suspected reds' going by the demeanour of the posts on this thread, n'est pas?

Reader

Attn 'Famous Seamus'

19.09.2010 23:23

Is anyone putting their name to the book this thread is about?

Shame Indeed

Street activity

20.09.2010 00:13

Theres been absolutely bundles of fascist street activity since 1997, maybe not as much as in the past, but then not all of us are living in the past.

Here n Now

zzzzzz

20.09.2010 07:28

@ Lee

1. The question has been asked once already on this thread (and ignored) - where on libcom can we see the statement about the book being edited by an ex-womble? I can't see the statement anywhere on libcom, let alone one being made by the person you refer to. Can you give us a link to where on libcom this is?

2. Notice of Freedom's intention to publish the book was circulated within SolFed to reach out to those older members who had been members of the DAM - this was to get their feedback on it, and also to allow the news to circulate wider than the current membership of Sol Fed. Of course now the discussion is getting onto the nature of the consultation rather than its existence which up until now has been forcibly denied by most on here.

@ Lie Detector

Why the hesitance to answer a simple question on a subject you seem to be sufficiently confident about?

As to clinging to Freedom's statement like tabloid/scripture and inviting anyone reading the thread to read it for themselves - if we take this approach do you then think that the poster '@' on here is lying about his claim that most of the collective didn't know about the book's existence until it was advertised on their own website? Because the first sentence of 'that' statement from Freedom says:-

"Over the last few months the Freedom Collective has been in negotiations with the authors of a history of Anti Fascist Action (AFA)."

Now this statement was written just a few weeks after the advert on the website first went up, but it clearly states that the Freedom Collective (not just representatives or individual members) had been in negotiations with the authors for many months. '@' makes the claim however that most of the collective were unaware of the existence of the book until 24th May. Using your approach of basing all your knowledge on what you read in the papers, you should be accusing him of lying. Is '@' lying Lie Detector? Or did the Freedom collective somehow manage to be both unaware of the existence of the book and in negotiations with the authors of the book at the same time (and over a period of many months)?

I wouldn't use this approach myself to make the claim that the collective were aware of the book as I know this is the case through my direct involvement with them since November of last year - but for someone like yourself who has no knowledge other than what has been said publicly in official statements, it does point to you having to claim that '@' is lying

Ross

West Midlands anarchists

20.09.2010 08:19

Were these respected ex-AfA anarchists asked to contribute to this book?

JJ

BNP ON THE (leafletting) RAMPAGE

20.09.2010 08:23

QUOTE: "Theres been absolutely bundles of fascist street activity since 1997, maybe not as much as in the past... " END QUOTE

Dear anti-fascist and Here & now,

I don't doubt it for a minute. You are effectively arguing Red Action's case for them. Yes the BNP are even more active, and there are many more of them. But they have fundamentally changed their tactics and you (apparently) refuse to even consider changing yours.

You are basically goading people for not continuing to play Draughts when the game switched long ago to Chess.

Anyway, as Red Action (and all the other former AFA Comrades you find 'guilty by association') are all fat, old, drunken, cowardly, treacherous, traitorous cunts I would have thought you and your heroic friends would be well shot of them, wouldn't they?.

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to the dynamic, pro-active organisation you have built since you were freed of the burden of 'carrying' these real-life over-weights and political light-weights. You have had (by your own reckoning) 13 years. What have you built?

Because someone has a different analysis to you does not automatically make them a cunt or a coward. If you choose to engage the Fash physically, fire away. You have every right to take an opposing view to that put forward by my old comrades, and to take the fight to the fascisti. I wish you every success.

In the interests of clarity - and to allow people to take an informed view invited you (and yours) to publish your long list of successful engagements 'fascist street activity'.

I am still waiting... by the way shadow-boxing, fantasising or computer-games don't count.

Famous Seamus

Big Swinging Dick

20.09.2010 08:37

QUOTE Frankly, since the title's now been changed twice and the 'publication date' is long gone, it makes whoever wrote and issued this press-release look more than a little bit stupid.
Dick Teriov QUOTE

Hi Dick (what an apt name!)

At the top of this thread a number of posters objected to the use of the word 'authorised' in the title. I think it is fair to say that not just the ranters suggested it might be helpful if this was amended.

IF that has now been amended, then surely the authors are to be commended for taking this critical feedback on board - thus removing a major plank of the opposition argument and allowing people who might have (legitimate & principled) objections to the title to engage positively with the whole book.

Why would you see this evidence of empiricism (of adapting your theory (the title) to fit the reality, as opposed to trying to bend the reality to fit your theory) as problematic? Are you now criticising them for listening and taking on board constructive criticism? Or are you just pissed off that they have robbed you of some ammunition?

As for the publication date moving back, I am given to believe this is such a common occurence that nobody in the book industry would bat an eyelid.

I am sure they will have Volume 2 ready in good time...

... and just think of all the extra time you have to write your own

Famous Seamus

Believing everything you read in the papers

21.09.2010 08:34

Surely there's a big difference between this and believing a signed statement made by a group or collective in their own paper?!

Observer

Libcom / Wombles

21.09.2010 09:47

The claim (which I also read) on Libcom that this book was being 'edited' by an ex-Womble (made by 'Oisleep' I think) appears to have now been removed - presumably because it was incorrect.

Libcom (occassional) poster

Title

21.09.2010 10:01

"Because someone has a different analysis to you does not automatically make them a cunt or a coward."

Admittedly. Nor does it make them 'Searchlight' either. I'm pleased to see that its now being conceded that there could be "legitimate and principled" criticism of the book's original title and I'm pleased to see that it was changed.

Comrade

responses

22.09.2010 07:29

@ Observer

"Surely there's a big difference between this and believing a signed statement made by a group or collective in their own paper?!"

In which case do you agree '@' is lying about most of the freedom collective being unaware of the existence of the book prior to it being advertised on their website? The statement clearly says that the freedom collective had been in negotiations with the book's authors for many months prior to it being advertised. '@' is therefore lying or at best continuing to spread misinformation, yes?

@ Libcom Poster & Lee

It seems very convenient that this thing which you all apparently seen on libcom being posted allegedly by the same person who circulated the consultation, has mysteriously disappeared - so something that doesn't exist is being used to support something that didn't happen, nice.

The original claim was that the same poster who had confirmed they had circulated the consultation communication within Sol Fed in March this year was also the same person who had claimed the book was being edited by an ex-womble. The aim was obviously to discredit something that was true by projecting onto that person something which was false. So this attempt only had legs if the two statements could be attributed to the same person, which has failed miserably. Even if they were both said by the same person the falseness of the later doesn't prove the falseness of the former. Libcom poster you stated that the claim about editing was removed 'presumably because it was incorrect' - the statement about the circulation of the consultation communication in March this year remains however - logic dictates that it does so because it is presumably correct?

By the way, I'm oisleep on libcom and I can assure you I have never said anything of the sort though about editing - to put this one to bed however I did a bit of searching on the internet and I did find a reference to someone claiming the book had been edited by an ex-womble. This claim however was made by an entirely different person (compare their profiles to see) on an entirely different website - on revleft.com:-

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1757509&postcount=5

So basically what youse are saying is that:-

Person A said something about topic B on website C, but this is definitely false because unrelated Person X, said something about unrelated topic Y on unrelated website Z

Perhaps the prosecution should rest? (like @, Andy and Lie Detector appear to have already done, after having metaphorically shot their respective loads)

Ross

How many anarchists does it take to write a book?

23.09.2010 13:44

When Tom Vague wrote 'Anarchy In The UK - The Angry Brigade', how many former Angry Brigade members were asked to contribute to the book?

When Tom Vague wrote 'Televisionaries - The Red Army Faction Story 1963-1993', how many former members of the RAF were consulted or asked to contribute to the book?

When AK produced 'UNFINISHED BUSINESS - The Politics of Class War', presumably the entire current membership and former members of Class War were fully consulted and contributed to the writing of it?

When Stuart Christie translated Antonio Tellez's 'SABATE - Guerilla Extraordinary' how many former comrades and anti-fascist veterans did he consult with and collaborate with on his endeavour?

When Abel Paz wrote 'Durruti - The People Armed' - how many former comrades of Durriti did he consult with and involve in the writing process?

Or is the anarchist mantra simply a case of "Do as I say but not as I do"? Well, I've got news for you comrades, that's not anarchism that is Stalinism. In other posts here this stalinistic trend among some of those claiming to be anarchists here is amply demonstrated by the complete disregard of democratic decisions taken by the Freedom Collective with regard to the publication of Beating The Fascists.

The fact that the Beating The Fascists book involves the collaboration and input of 20+ AFA organisers is an impressive feat in itself, but not considered good enough by those who sit in judgement here and produce nothing themselves.

If you think you can do better, DO IT...

Put out a message on Indymedia and the various internet forums appealing for ex-members of AFA who would like to contribute to your 'real history of AFA' to step forward and make their contributions.

I for one would be eager to read the pig's ear that you will make of it.

Good luck and happy writing!

Reader

hey pete u fuckwit

23.09.2010 21:20

Are we going to see your fucking book or what. Is it out on the 4th or has it been delayed again.

bignose

How VERY, VERY ignorant

24.09.2010 08:38

Tom Vague's book on the Angry Brigade was roundly criticized by former AB member John Barker (his review appears in the Christie Books re-print of Gordon Carr's book on the AB). UNFINISHED BUSINESS was re-published by AK, but WRITTEN by members of the Class War Federation themselves. Stuart Christie TRANSLATED 'Sabate', which is extremely well-researched by the AUTHOR Antonio Tellez. Abel Paz was HIMSELF a member of the Durruti Column. How many Red Action members does it take to write a book? Ajl you have left it seems. How many Anarchist ex-AFA members were asked to contribute? None. How long did it take you to get your book (nearly) published? Almost a decade. And you needed the Anarchists to do it for you. Fuck off 'comrade'.

anarchist

Opposite ends of the spectrum

24.09.2010 09:46

The last two posts by 'reader' and 'big-nose' sum up this whole handbags-at-dawn thread for me.

Reader employs logic and rationality. Big-nose indulges himself.

Reader shows knowledge and research. big nose ingulges himself

Reader makes political points... big nose....

why does one side seem capable (sometimes) of sticking to the political point while the other (with one or two honourable exceptions, a long way back) just vents their childish spleen

Any good arguments and legitimate concerns are buried under an avalanche of sour grapes and vengeful stupidity

How those honourable exceptions must be sat there... thinking (just as they had to all those years ago at anti-fascist mobilisations) 'please tell me these half-wits are not on my side'

you have my sympathies comrades

Famous Seamus

"Stalinist"??!!

24.09.2010 18:17

Are you for real Ross?! I was around in the 80's n Red Action were by far the worst stalinists i've ever come across! And they were the most sectarian.

Topsy

Suited not booted

24.09.2010 19:25

QUOTE=="Sam Neil is quite correct, while the BNP may have stopped marching and concentrated on electoral politics, they never completely abandoned the streets in the way that Red Action (NOT AFA) have claimed. Today they still regularly have street-stalls and go out canvassing and leafleting."==QUOTE

An Anarchist and an Anti-fascist

I understand the sentiment but there is a difference from the old days. Firstly, how many leftwing/anarco paper sales, meetings, marches are being attacked by the BNP nowadays?

The BNP aren't contesting the streets violently, they are contesting people's support in their homes, in their workplaces etc...with propaganda...

The BNP are suited not booted. They are still scum and no doubt loads of people would like to have a pop at them but in their current guise they would only appear as victims.

The original squads were born of necessity and totally justified. There was a war going on that the NF started, whereas nowadays it's a bit more difficult to justify physical attacks on suited racists, although I myself would applaud it.

What the trolls and god knows what else on this thread want is to divert attention from the serious posters and cause confusion. Ignore them.

At the end of the day we are not just talking about a book but an ongoing historical struggle against evil.

Now the question is.
What should I do when someone in a suit puts a racist leaflet through my letter box?

Gerard

Gerard

Tom Vague

24.09.2010 22:39

At least tom Vague put his name to those books and didn't try pretending they were "authorised" when they weren't.

anon

'Knowledge and research'?

25.09.2010 04:37

That particular post by 'Reader' shows very little of either. What it does show is a thinly-veiled contempt for anarchists which RA only occassionally bothered to hide in the past and have only done so recently because of their dealings with Freedom.

anarchist

Cover design on freedom

26.09.2010 13:08

There is a saying that goes, "Never judge a book by it's cover". But the cover design for this book shown over at freedom Press now is EXCELLENT!!!!

Can't wait for it to come out...

Check out the link to see it...

http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/afa-book/

Gerard

Gerard

Hidden Extras

28.09.2010 10:11

The Dead Sea Scrolls turned up....eventually.

What next ......the missing presumed lost depositions of Hann?

Tick, tick, tick..................

Would blow a hole in someone's reputation...but whose?

Loaded Dice

You know that I know that you know that we know that I know that you know that..

28.09.2010 16:16

@ anarchist

A point of information to your previous post, That wasn't 'thinly veiled contempt' for all anarchists, that was TOTAL CONTEMPT for the so-called anarchists who have posted here in an unprincipled way against the book.

It is disingenuous for you to suggest otherwise, especially as someone who whilst eschewing Searchlight publicly is more than happy to make private 'unofficial' alliances with them against the perceived 'common enemy' of Red Action.

In fact, anyone who makes an unholy alliance with Searchlight in order to try to thwart the publication of this book is beneath contempt.

Suffice to say Mr Anarchist that you do not represent anarchism in any sense or shape. I've spent the last few months in the company of more anarchists than I did throughout my time in AFA and whilst I have met people who had grumbles and misgivings about AFA and Red Action, I have not met a single one who is against the publication of this book, nor have I met any who object to Freedom publishing it.

SO WHO DO YOU REPRESENT APART FROM YOURSELF?

For your information, I work alongside anarchists in the West Midlands without so much as a political problem between us. All of those comrades are really looking forward to reading the book, as are many others from what the lads in the Midlands have been saying.

So, you see, I dont have contempt for anarchism per se, but I do have nothing but contempt for people like you.

Glad to have sorted that dilemma for you.

The book is almost ready, the cover looks great, and the content is even better.

Happy reading to anarchists, reds and anti-fascists everywhere!

Reader

great advertising

28.09.2010 19:52

Just had a look at the Freedom advert ,As a female AFA activist I'm not too chuffed at the advert ,some sexist shit about ''a bunch of working class lads who took on the far right '' ,There was women involved at all levels of AFA ,we didnt spend all of our time just knitting lucozade covers for our valiant men folk as they did brave battle ,some of us females actually carried the lucozade bottles as well ,I wonder if thats just a Freedom press release ? or is it what we're going to expect from the book ?.Not an Anarchist ,never was ,just an ordinary woman who hated the Fash as much as the rest of us,Can any one answer why the advert is a load of sexist shit

amused

More than a woman....

29.09.2010 15:11

Steve T, you are not a female member of AFA, so please stop making these outrageous claims.

What you do in the privacy of your own home is up to you. You can be anyone you want to be in your pink dress and mascara in front of the mirror, but please don’t try passing yourself off as AFA WOMAN.

Can you and Matthew not come up with anything better?

Perhaps you need to have another little get together like the one you had some weeks ago up north.

Anti Feshist Action

Reader

29.09.2010 22:42

When I want an opinion on anarchists and anarchism I'll listen to anarchists rather than lying old trot who'll butter up anyone so long as he gets his book published. Based on the shit you've posted all through this thread I doubt theres an honest word in this book. You really are an arch liar of the first order.

Das Boot

October 4th

29.09.2010 23:12

Will the book still be out on October 4th?

anon

Not amused

30.09.2010 07:27

You have your answer comrade, Red Action are the same bunch of posturing macho wankers they always were, and even mild criticism of any aspect of this book will be met by smear and insult by the stalinist attack dogs.

Dan

Wankers

30.09.2010 10:16

Thats not very nice is it? A female ex comrade of yours has a minor gripe about your marketing and is immediately put down as some sort of searchlight stooge. Maybe there'd have been more women in AFA if you lot hadn't been such sexist pigs. Guess you think we should just stay at home making your tea.

One less book you'll sell

Methink He Doth Protesteth Too Much

01.10.2010 01:23

The bigeth noseth oneth...

LOLeth !

Reader

Whats happening?

01.10.2010 07:09

Is this book gonna be out next week - as previously advertized - or what?

?

Publication date

01.10.2010 09:06

The publication date has now been removed from FP website. Heard a rumour its been postponed again because Hann's mrs is threatening legal action. What about those who paid a tenner for a copy months ago?

JC

Woman anti-fascist

01.10.2010 10:10

Why did that woman poster get so much stick? I thought she had a fair point.

Bang out of order!

Book

01.10.2010 14:45

From what I've heard this book is a boring load of bollocks anyway. I won't be wasting £15 on it.

Mart

Sean Birchall

01.10.2010 23:13

Who is Sean Birchall?

Simon

The Method Man

02.10.2010 14:18

Steve or Stephanie, you can stop posting now and take a few moments to have your nervous breakdown...

You know that old adage about talking to yourself and answering back being a sign of madness? Well, so is answering your own posts... You are as nutty as squirrel's shit Tilzey.

Posing as a woman anti-fascist - how cracked is that? Have you been studying 'the method' Marlon? What's your next character going to be - maybe a gay black activist or a disabled lesbian feminist who were itching to do the business, but were sidelined by all those big bad macho brutes from Red Action?

As for publication dates, Stephanie, don't you go worrying your pretty little head about that. It's on the way.

Nor has any money changed hands at any time, so all those tenners that you imagined people handing over to Freedom never actually happened. Freedom invited an email to register interest in the special offer deal. There was no financial transaction involved.

The only thing you demonstrate here is your lunacy, your pathological hatred of Red Action and individuals within it, and your complicity and duplicity on several fronts.

What a screwed up, cowardly, frightened, wretch of a man you are.

Actors Studio

The reason for the latest delay in publication is...

03.10.2010 08:55

That the fine bunch of socialists and anarchists publishing this book, committed as they are to workers' rights, trade unionism, environmentalism, and opposing globalisation, instead of getting the book printed by properly paid workers (maybe even by a workers' cooperative) in the UK, have chosen to get it printed as cheaply as possible by free-rein capitalists using non union / sweatshop labour in SINGAPORE!

Hulme Man

Ak Press catalogue

03.10.2010 12:59

I thought that 'Beating the Fascists' might be listed in the 2011 AK Distribution catalogue. It isn't though. When exactly will it be out?

P.Knowle

Heaven forbid

03.10.2010 23:50

Heaven forbid that a woman should actually have something to say. This thread reads like a pissing contest in the boys toilets at infant school.

Anon

Searchlight in a flutter...

04.10.2010 09:57

It seems the imminent publication of the book is causing Searchlight to go all a flutter. I'm pleased. For too long this mendacious bunch have written the history of anti fascist struggle. No longer.

Tall Chris
mail e-mail: tallchris99@hotmail.com

Woman AFA poster or another Troll?

04.10.2010 13:06

Amused states that the advert is sexist because it only mentions “the lads” and later on Anon says “Heaven forbid that a woman should actually have something to say”, thus taking the new sexist angle attack even further.

What the woman AFA poster has failed to notice after reading the 488 comments on here is that there is a concerted effort by nameless cynical individuals to throw as much mud on the book as they can before it’s publication. She must realize that her comments add her to the gripers camp and therefore make her suspect.

What is odd is that as she claims to be/have been involved but she has nothing good to say and does not distance herself from the other attacks. Her post is therefore tactless in the context of this thread. Now any attack on this book here will look like the work of a troll, even if the phrasing of the advert can be construed as sexist. Hey, don't get me wrong. I think women should have a go at the fash and many have and are recognized for their bravery.

The structure of this sentence in her post reveals to me that it is a made up. “just an ordinary woman who hated the Fash as much as the rest of us” Trolls have to invent and justify people but often fall into the trap of referring to themselves in the third person.

Gerard

Gerard

October 4th

04.10.2010 13:44

Isn't it October 4th today, the anniversary of the Battle of Cable Street? Wasn't the book supposed to be out today - again? Sure if you think hard enough you'll come up with some other anniversary to aim for. Why oh why did that knobend in Dublin post this to indymedia? You could hardly look any more foolish boyos!

pissupinabrewery

Singapore

04.10.2010 22:09

If thats right it's an absolute fucking disgrace. A comrade of mine was a printer for over 15 years till he got made redundent last year. No wonder he doesn't have a job when even this kind of work is being put out to the cheapest bidder. I don't imagine conditions in a singapore print shop are very good or the work well paid. What fucking hypocrisy.

Nestor

British Jobs for British Workers?

05.10.2010 08:29

Nestor,

congratulations on the most hilarious post on the entire thread. Your post reads like a Top-Tip from Viz (many years ago, when it was funny).

pissupinabrewery,

you'd run nestor a close second. Are you now (whilst posing as an anarchist) berating your anrchist comrades at freedom for not being organised enough to meet deadlines (for a book that you don't want to see the light of day anyway)?

"Desperado, why don't you come to your senses..."

Anyways, not long to wait now, eh?

Famous Seamus

Gerard

05.10.2010 09:06

My comment was perfectly justified ,yes it was a slag off of the advert ,yes I am a female who was involved in AFA ,why should I have to distance my self from all 400 odd previous posts just to make a post Gerard , are you psychic ? have you got access to special powers where you can deduce who I may or not be ? the advert is sexist as fuck , Its obvious to me [ yes I was there ] that women were involved so why no mention of it on the advert ,pedantic of me maybe but I have never stated reading the book either , do the red action attack dogs ever actually admit for one tiny minute that something they do could have been wrong [even a little bit gerard ]? to all the blokes on here it might seem like sod all but to the few women involved in AFA it will mean a hell of a lot to even get a credit on the advert ,it was a lot harder for a woman to get involved and stay involved with all the constant beer talk and macho posturing that went on ,Any chance of a reply Gerard without accusing me of being a cross dresser ? send me an email adress and we can resume this in private if you want as I have not got the faintest who you are either ,maybe you could be accused of being a fash troll as well ?

AFA Woman ,the same one as before

Gerrard

05.10.2010 09:41

I can understand why other posters have been so irritated with some of your earlier posts Gerrard because you really are a sanctimonious little idiot. Who are you, with an antifascist pedigree of sweet fuck all, to be having a go at a female former AFA member? Perhaps she didn't read all 400-odd posts before making her perfectly valid comment. Many ex-AFA members will readily admit there was sexism within AFA, something you would know absolutely nothing about. Hopefully one of the more sensible 'pro-book' posters will simply concede that the advert is poorly worded and that the role of women within AFA is fully acknowledged in the book.

1 in 12er

(I doubt it but) Maybe you're right Gerard

05.10.2010 21:06

Maybe that 'woman' ex AFA comrade is just Steve Tilzey or some other Searchlight puke. Maybe. But how would you feel if you're wrong and you're defaming a good comrade? Probably you wouldn't feel much at all because you're obviously a cocky young fellow. But also because she was never a comrade of YOURS was she? So (just in case you are wrong) why don't you just remember that and pull your neck in?

Ex AFA

Anarchy International

05.10.2010 22:22

I believe that there are anarchists in Singapore who have learned the print trade and work in co-operatives.

I presume no-one here would be against putting some work their way?

Printer

Comments

05.10.2010 23:19

From the sound of it Tall Chris, the books not all that 'imminent' (was having a good laugh about it with a mutual pal of ours last weekend - the one with the geordie daughter) . Plenty of mendacity to come though. Only good bit will be the squirming of Searchlies. As for Gerard, if there is one 'troll' on here it is this annoying little twerp who now seems to think he's Sherlock Fucking Holmes.

NSG

Fao Printer

06.10.2010 09:29

It ISN'T being printed by anarchists in Singapore, it's being printed in a SWEATSHOP by an outfit so shoddy their excuse for the delay is that they have run out of paper!

London Eye

Printing

06.10.2010 13:42

Why are Freedom not using Aldgate Press as usual? Seems like something of a slap in the face for them after 30 years of printing Freedom. It would be bad enough if another UK company were being used, even one in Europe, but SINGAPORE?! Personally, I think Freedom have every right to publish this book, but they do need to explain themselves (wand not via their mouthpieces on this thread.)

Peter

P.S.

06.10.2010 13:49

While I can't see Freedom Press endorsing sweatshop labour, labour practices are very different in Singapore, which is why labour costs are cheap there. And there are a bloody lot of air miles involved!

Peter

Attn 'AFA Woman'

06.10.2010 15:49

Take no notice of 'Gerard', he's not worth bothering about, just some gobby kid talking about stuff he has no first-hand experience of. As for the Red Action pricks, they've obviously not changed a bit since AFA days.

Comrade X

Question

06.10.2010 18:47

If they'd had a choice would the founding members of Red Action have remained the Socialist Workers Party?

Jim (Bristol)

Elementary my dear Miss Marple

06.10.2010 19:53

NSG I am not Sherlock Holmes but it wouldn’t take Inspector Clusoe to sus out your politics, would it. Take this little quote of yours from post 402
(QUOTE)You lot are as nutty as the 9-11 'truth' movement!(QUOTE).
Well Watson, it’s quite clear we have here a person of fake anarchist or left wing credentials as no-one with a critical analysis of recent American foreign policy would even doubt that 9/11 was an inside job.

So what does that make you?

Has anyone got the time to list all the different attacks and defamations in this thread? There are some right moaners. Some of it is even surreal. It appears anything goes.

“The books a lie, the books not coming out on the day, the book’s undemocratic, the books anti trade union, anti anarchist, exploiting workers in Singapore, the authors strong-armed FP. Court case court case, FP’s been infiltrated. Millions of kittens are being drowned to publish this book, blah blah blah.

PS
On a more serious note I agree that women’s role in AFA needs to be more widely recognised. I hope it’s dealt with in the book.

Gerard

Gerard

Matty me ol' ex fash

06.10.2010 23:20

Hello Matthew Kelly…sorry Collins

Poor old (young) Gerard is getting loads of stick on here, which is nothing new, as you know, so thought you can shed some light on it.

When you and Steve had your little meeting, (and I know you both had a bollicking off Gerry, as one of you was pissed and talked too much) what did you hope to achieve. Are you there with it yet? Anarcho-feminist-MI5. Nah never work, will it?

Funny how you ‘changed ’sides Matthew and you are still fighting Red Action. But hey some will say when you had the chance to fight Red Action you didn’t. Making up for it now aren’t you.

When you reply, I will name the drunk. Gerry is mad to know.

Undercover drunk

When is it coming out?

07.10.2010 10:26

First it was July 28th, then October 4th, then simply October. Now it just says 'coming soon' on the freedom website. Does anyone know when it'll actually be out? Don't want to be impatient, but I'd like to know if I'll be able to pick up a copy when I'm in London in about 3 weeks time.

Punter

Well does everyone...

08.10.2010 01:07

keep referring to Tilzey's big conk?

I think his belly is much bigger.

arf!

Dids

out soon

08.10.2010 07:22

@ Punter

"I'd like to know if I'll be able to pick up a copy when I'm in London in about 3 weeks time."

that will be possible

Ross

FAO Jim Bristol

08.10.2010 17:39

Good question, set amongst all the other nonsense on here at the moment.

My view is that they would have left anway. The SWP at the time were battening down the hatches in the face of thatchers reactionary onslaught against the working class.

The SWP reined in manyof their peripheral political activities, not just in anti fascism, but also womens voice was mothballed, irish solidarity work put on the backburner. Thier main interest was in rank and file trade unionism, in the hope that they would be in a better position come the upturn. I assume this meant labour regaining power.

The people that formed red action, and I suppose you could also include the short lived socialist federation inthis, were in the main starting out on their political journey and would not have been they types to sit out the downturn.

Vic

ha ha

09.10.2010 08:22

Nice one denise give you that one. But a fat antifascist will always be better than a morally defunct one.

bigbelly

well is it

09.10.2010 10:05

True that O'Shea went to public school?

curious

Singapore

09.10.2010 11:02

Its a shame this book is being printed in Singapore. I've heard Active have printed stuff in eastern europe before cos its cheaper, but I think we always need to have ethical considerations about everything we do. Getting stuff printed in singapore may make ecconomic sense but it doesn't make ethical sense. While I can understand comrades wanting to get their propaganda out as cheaply as possible, for anarchists and good socialists the ends don't justify the means. The Uk has plenty of ethical environmentally-friendly and politically sound printers who charge fair rates.

Molly

Red Action and the SWP

09.10.2010 12:21

I think that if they'd not been purged by the SWP leadership some members of what became Red Action would have left anyway and developed better politics (which they did). Others would have remained in the party and wouldn't have. With hindsight I doubt there's any RA members who regret the purge.

Old Git

Searchlight. For or against?

10.10.2010 22:33

No doubt there will be something in the book about it but what really is the issue with Searchlight magazine? Can someone shed some light on the controversy using facts, please, rather than heresay/slander etc…?

I understand that Hope Not Hate is Searchlight. I find their calls to stay at home in face of the EDL Racist Road Show rather suspect as it leads to scenes like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt12IHOf6fA

Gerard.

Gerard

Searchlight

11.10.2010 04:02

While I wasn't in favour of Freedom publishing the book (I thought Ak should have) I look forward to seeing Searchlight nailed and to Hann And Tilzey being comprehensively exposed. I know many other antifascists who feel exactly the same despite attempts to villify anyone sharing this view as Searchlight stooges. Gerard, I'm sure you'll get your answers in the book.

Antifascist

FAO Gerard

11.10.2010 12:22

If you have no idea as to the controversy regarding Searchlight then why post the rest of that guff?

Tall Chris
mail e-mail: tallchris99@hotmail.com

FAO Tall Chris

12.10.2010 20:43

Tall Chris.
You ask me
(QUOTE)If you have no idea as to the controversy regarding Searchlight then why post the rest of that guff?(QUOTE)

I have reflected in some posts on what other people suspect is searchlight activity in this thread (I.e, disruptive posts and disinformation). As of yet there’s no real proof where it is coming from. My opinion of it is not fully formed and so for that reason I ask my question in post 521.

I suspect NSG is NF or something but many of the other random one off posts are something else.

Where is it coming from?

Sectarians, people with personal grudges or State Agents provocateurs?

Gerard

PS, I’m so young I’m gonna have to get mummy to read me the book while I look at the pictures.

Gerard

serious stuff

12.10.2010 23:00

Oshea was accused of rape...sounds nasty,,..does it get an explanation in the book

come on ffs

More conspiracy theories from an ill-informed fool

13.10.2010 03:43

Having read your increasingly paranoid and wildly speculative posts Gerard, it's hard to conclude that you are anything other than a self-important, but very stupid, idiot. You received short-shrift from 'NSG' from early on and a number of his or her posts are very disparaging. Yet your speculation that thìs poster might be 'NF' is without any basis whatsoever. This sort of wild speculation helps nobody. You are simply making yourself look more and more stupid.

Antifascist

FAO Curious

13.10.2010 11:45

Congratulations and thank you for this one...

"True that O'Shea went to public school?"

Be Jas' you have him sussed now alright, Boy. Probably grew up playin cricket too!

Seriously, the coffee I was drinking went out through my nose. It's always nice to get a break from the nastiness and have a little genuine amusement.

I dunno if it was Public but I'm pretty sure it would be well Approved. I would respectfully suggest that any Public Scool capable of producing Mr O'Shea would have been closed long, long ago.

Famous Seamus

Enough Gerard!

13.10.2010 17:32

When I read some of the responses to Gerard's posts earlier in this thread I felt a bit sorry for him. Not anymore! His sustained stupidity and increasing pomposity would test the patience of... well a very patient person. I think he has been called "a complete fucking idiot" at least once - Sorry, but after reading his recent posts I think that's about right. Please spare IM readers any more of your moronic observations and irritating questions Gerard. Just order the book and shut up!

Nothing Personal

So where the fuck is it?

14.10.2010 07:33

Are they paddling it from Singapore in a bleeding canoe?

Oirish Beejeezus

You scabby bastards!

14.10.2010 15:39

That is fucking shameful about Freedom getting printing done in Singapore! Does anyone if they have had anything else printed there?

Wob

Sean Birchall?

14.10.2010 22:25

Who is Sean Birchall (the given author of the book), I don't recall hearing the name before? Perhaps it is a pen-name, which I think is fair enough. Is there an actual publication date, the link just says 'coming soon'?

anon

Non abusive message for Gerard

14.10.2010 22:57

http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/index.php?link=template&story=329

Article in October searchlight, explains the hope not hate stand on edl and bnp. Basically all trad militant anto fasism is out of date and has been for a while. we must now all work with labour party and when they get back in power everything rosy again.

This goes to the root of seasrchlight disagreement with afa. In mid nineties searchlight positioned itself to benefit from labour victory. AFA saw that working class were turning to bnp because they had rejected labour. For AFA to challenge bnp it would mean challenging labour if it was to be effective against bnp.(IWCA?)

Searchlight benefit to new labour was two fold. One it could help neutralise a threat to labour from the left/afa opposing labour and bnp.

Two it could oppose bnp (on behalf of labour) in working class areas where labour had been discredited and usurped (barking, burnley).

Searchlight has grown fat under new labour but the clock is now ticking and if their end game for bnp doesnt deliver, the bnp will be sitting pretty to capitalise on condem austerity measures all courtesy of the failure of labour when in government.

Miliband Tendency

Searchlight - Yeah, there's that

15.10.2010 09:05

And there's also the fact they're a bunch of lying, state-sponsored, back-stabbing, fifth columnist, pro-zionist, trouble-causing, grassing cunts!

Barney Rubble

Where are all the punters?

15.10.2010 19:58

Assuming this book ever arrives from the Singapore sweatshop, how long is it going to take to punt 2000 copiesat at £15 a pop? This is at base a vanity publication which Freedom have been duped into sponsoring. They're going to have boxloads of it littering up the place for years.

You must be joking

And traitors snear

15.10.2010 23:28

Looks to me like Red Action are going to try and use this book and the false history it contains as a springboard to relaunch [re-invent] themselves -

http://www.redaction.org/ They have been ably assisted by the traitors at Freedom Press - and some other traitors to the @ movement. Go and join the Reds you treacherous bastards. Only one fly in the Red Action ointment - do they have a single member who isn't white, male, and over 40?

Blackheart

When?

16.10.2010 11:19

Been into Freedom but they couldn't tell me anymore than what's on the website. This wouldn't have happened if it'd been printed at Aldgate Press instead of in Singapore. The people I spoke to said the same, so why was it ever sent to Singapore. Aldgate Press have done all Freedom's stuff for years and it's not as if their books are overpriced. So why with this book and who made the decision? Sounds like a case of profiteering to me.

Frustrated

Infamy, Infamy... they've all got it in fer me

16.10.2010 11:49

You sound just like Charles Hawtree or Kenneth Williams - except they wefre being deliberately amusing.

Statement; Freedom are traitors

Translation: I have no political comment to make. I am too lazy/thick to come up with an original insult.

QUOTE Only one fly in the Red Action ointment - do they have a single member who isn't white, male, and over 40?
Blackheart END QUOTE

Only one fly in the ointment of your argument... Red Action does not have ANY members... at all... even fat old blokes like me... not for some years now...

Famous Seamus

Anarchist bookfair

17.10.2010 18:34

Less than a week too go before the bookfair n the books still not back from the printers. Isn't this cutting it a bit fine?

Guess i must be number 8

Happy Days.... get your copy today!

19.10.2010 08:42

Now that the book is actually available, can we look forward to some INFORMED discussion on the subject?

Obviously, I ask more in hope than expectancy...

Famous Séamus

Special offer

20.10.2010 16:01

http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/2010/10/20/beating-the-fascists-bookfair-special/

Kinda defeats the point of the 'special' pre order discount.....

Dis count

Dis Count

21.10.2010 07:01

you are now moaning because the book is too affordable? Truly pathetic and not a little bizarre. Why not just say 'thank you' to Freedom Press and enjoy your discount?

Do you have any political comment or analysis?

I look forward to your incisive comments when you have actually read the book - or are you afraid to read it?

Famous Seamus

Where to buy the book...

29.10.2010 20:03

Beating The Fascists is now available to buy from

http://www.beatingthefascists.org/

£15 inland (including p&p)

£17.50 Europe (this includes p&p and postage prices to Eire)

The book is also available from Freedom Books at:

http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/2010/10/28/beating-the-fascists-the-untold-story-of-anti-fascist-action-2/

I understand that TAL FANZINE also have some copies available to buy at the above prices.
Paypal to

talfanzine@googlemail.com or contact them via the same email addy or via

http://www.talfanzine.com/

ALL MAJOR CREDIT CARDS ACCEPTED :o))

Book Seller

book review ? you're having a larf

02.11.2010 14:32

the reason that nobody has commented yet is because all the anarchos on here are too tight to buy it so have chipped in with the Hackney Book collective and are going to be passing it around ,problem is the intro is possibly the dullest ever written and Sid Snot is still trying to read it , fuck me its so dull it must have been written by O'Shea himself .expect some comments in a couple of years

sore head

BTF For Dummies

05.11.2010 08:54

Don't fret, a 'BTF for Dummies' is in the pipeline and an illustated storybook version too.

Yes, those damned introductions to political books. Why can't they just leave out the politics and get straight to the fighting and drinking - oh that's already been done. Anyway too much politics and not enough.... other stuff ..... or something

Famous Seamus

sore heads indeed

06.11.2010 09:22

Given that most of the anti-book lobby on here had claimed that copies of the manuscript were in circulation back in May, then surely 6 months is long enough for them to have managed to read the thing by now and assembled some kind of review of it

Strange when we compare the amount of reviews that were proffered of the book before it was actually released, to the deathly silence now it has been released

Ross

Review

04.12.2010 11:35

Review of the book in Freedom the other week (part 1 of a two part review)

----------------------------
Previously everything from the Red Action (RA) stable has been crucial to any understanding of both left wing working class politics and politics in general, past and present in the UK, and so this is. Hard to put down, Beating The Fascists (BTF) is a no-holds-barred account of the Red Action and Anti Fascist Action’s practical and ruthless application of their aims, principles and practice, of making space for working class politics to develop unfettered by the threat of fascism.

If you want to read it for the violence it competes well with any of the Cass Pennant [West Ham hooligan and author] pulp but really that would be a waste. A waste of all the blood (and there is lots) and sweat that was lost in the making of this book. And a waste of a significant percentage of working class political analysis in print since 1979. BTF stands as THE critical book on post war UK anti-fascism, in the fact it is written by those involved (not academics) and that its conclusions desperately deserve recognition and immediate application by all those who read it and indeed profess to be socialists or anti-fascists in a period when a neo-fascist party gets 1million votes in a Euro election. If anarchists, Unit Against Fascism (UAF) or whoever fail to read it and listen to it then it is an indictment on them not the authors.

Mostly any working class orientated anarchists will agree with the politics expressed in BTF. The need at times to physically confront fascism, the importance of class above race, the opposition to opportunism in the likes of the SWP, the attacks on careerists like Lee Jasper and the racist nonsense of RA being told they should have Race Awareness Training, and the critique of multi-culturalism and the role multi-culturalism plays in giving the BNP legitimacy to ‘represent’ white people when all other ‘ethnicity’ are represented, “ ..the underlying thesis behind multi-culturalism was not merely flawed but wrongheaded, reactionary and anti-working class..”

But as an anarchist there are some elements within BTF that do need comment. By the way I treat this as a Red Action book as much as an AFA book, as it is indeed written from the RA perspective.

It was widely and ignorantly alleged pre-publication that BTF would be a ‘slag-off’ of anarchist anti-fascists, betraying an ignorance of Red Action’s history of close work with working class anarchism, directly with DAM [Direct Action Movement] and indirectly with many others (including myself throughout the late 1980s). BTF reports accurately, and sympathetically, Class War’s expulsion from AFA in 1986 on Searchlight planted smears and lies of racism and links with the NF. They miss the story though that during the debate, as the platform were losing the argument to Class War, a tearful woman got up and emotionally stated that Class War had petrol bombed a Refugee Centre in Camden; at which point all hell broke loose, and Class War got up and left, followed as the book describes, by RA and DAM. The truth of the smear was of course entirely different, as we discovered later. Turns out squatters had burnt a A4 possession order pinned to the door of an evicted squat in Camden that unbeknown to the squatters (who were not even Class War!) had been allocated to a refugee group. We all know about Stalinist smears but to see these operated so disgustingly remains with me to this day.

As regards Searchlight, who most on the anarchist movement understand to be utterly bent, BTF sits on the fence. Searchlight smeared Class War four times in the period of this book, were exposed previously to that by Duncan Campbell in the 1970s and exposed by O’Hara and themselves on many other occasions. Yet RA carried on working with them. Throughout the book there are instances of Searchlight lies and dodgy behaviour yet a few pages later we see RA/AFA remain working with them. Indeed the book states they only truly split after the Patrick Hayes issue. And Searchlight were only proscribed by AFA in 1998.

Specifically I find it hard to believe BTF does not regard the Kensington Town Hall League of St George Meeting in 1991 as a set up by Searchlight, to get RA members arrested and sent down, as it appears to everyone I know. If it was not a Searchlight set up it was sheer idiocy. BTF suggest Gerry Gable’s tears on acquittal suggest there was no set up and that Gable claims he himself was set up for investigating the secret services. As if working with the security services [SS] as Gable did would protect him? Trap sprung it caught happily for the SS both perps. It was a Searchlight op from start to finish and for many of us with the boundaries between the SS and Searchlight blurred there was only ever one conclusion. I was there and I was also one of the ones who, sooner rather than later, wanted out as the whole op was crazy and as the book points out not long after AFA to ‘pulled the plug’. RA were lucky they walked away from court on this.

Considering all the evidence both in BTF and outside, which RA know only too well, the snake Nick Lowles and Searchlight get off remarkably lightly. I suspect it is due to the contradiction of working class anti-fascism that, while their agenda is working class, they end up having to work with people who have reactionary agendas like Searchlight. They obviously continued to receive useful information form Searchlight and to cut that off must have been a step too far. Understandable but wrong. It is stated in BTF that “sooner rather than later a progressive left will have to declare war on conservative anti-fascism” but bizarrely AFA never felt it had the confidence to do this.

There are also contradictory comments on Third Period Stalinism. BTF both notes favourably the Trotskyist critique/myth of the KPD that they did not do enough to fight the Nazis (and Trotsky’s support for anti fascist squads) but also the critique that the KPD operated ‘terrorism’ against the NSPAD. Actually RA of all people should argue that the issue in the late 20s/early 30s was not a lack of opposition to the Nazis but like now, how to fill the vacuum. With the SPD while the mass party (25-30% of the vote at every election) it was discredited amongst millions of working class for its betrayals, the KPD could have filled the vacuum but it was their Leninist politics that made them incapable of relating to the unemployed millions not their lack of bottle or theory of social fascism. The KPD incidentally never achieved more than 17% of the vote in Germany, and combined the two parties only hit 40% the once in 1928.

From an anarchist perspective there is little discussion about the mode of operation. From one perspective the pretty militaristic and top down MO seems the best way of operating. It certainly produced the goods and protected the participants over a long period. At the time it pissed many anarchists off, but for what the aims were I am not sure the organisation could have been anything different. It is maybe in fact that RA were unable to operate sufficiently openly after the demise of AFA that highlights the dangers of adopting such organisation.

Which brings us to the actual logic of militant anti-fascism. Whilst a chronicle of physical force anti-fascism, in fact the conclusion of BTF is that that is finished and we must move into a door to door strategy. This is a conclusion I believe anarchists should agree with but I, in fact, would go further and say that what is missing from the book is an acknowledgement that what made RA special was not their ability in close combat but their fundamentalism as regards class in politics.

Ross

Much Ado About Nothing...

10.01.2011 19:11

Well, what a damp squib this thread turned out to be.

Where's all the, pre-publication, piss 'n' vinegar gone?

Since the thing has been available all the vitriol and abuse seems to have disappeared up it's own arse. WIll none of thiose who 'knew' what was gonna be in it speak up? Either to admit they were wrong or offer some criticisms? Tossers.

Famous Seamus

Interesting but flawed

24.01.2011 16:30

An important book, in many ways. But also possibly one of the first books to feature the author interviewing himself, and under two different names!
More seriously there is a lot glossed over, including why and when Mickey O'F left RA (and his name subseqently blackened by his old 'comrades') and the Manchester stuff is a hatchet job. Who was it stood their ground in Roachdale again? Who is it in the photo of the bone getting battered in Hyde Park?
Hope someone gives this a proper review at a later stage.

Simon O'Brien

Smears me bollix

05.03.2011 14:33

MOF chose to leave Red Action because he had political differences that he could not reconcile with what had clearly become the majority view.

He considered he could not continue within RA, without compromising his considerable political and personal integrity. He could have chosen the traditional lefty route - and stayed and fought a bitter 'scorched earth' campaign to destroy the organisation he had helped form and led, but he did not. That would have made him a cunt. And he never a cunt.

I was in and around RA from it's inception to the early 90's (MOF was the defacto 'leader' of til the mid 80's) and I never heard him being 'smeared' or cunted off. Even though things may have been less than amicable at the time of his departure, MOF (and his contribution to militant anti-fscism) was, and is, held in high regard by all his ex-comrades.

To suggest otherwise is, frankly, complete bollocks - just like so much of the vitriolic nonsense on this thread.

Famous Seamus