EDL attack communists too
jon | 06.03.2010 22:27
Editor of For Bolshevism and leader of ForBolshevism-AUCPB(and also Organisation Secretary of UK KFA ) was subjected to an unprovoked and clearly targetted attack by a thug of the "EDL" at anti-EDL demo in London on 5 March.
jon
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And?
06.03.2010 23:03
I'm not agreeing with him being beaten up, but the guy's supporting a crypto-fascistic/ Stalinist regime himself. He's an embarrassment to be seen with on protests. I always seem to be stuck behind his friggin' flag...
billy bloke
please remove this pro-EDL post!
06.03.2010 23:53
;-)
@non
just untrue
07.03.2010 00:10
Brinkman Stats
e-mail:
brinkmanstats@live.co.uk
jog on @non
07.03.2010 00:14
My enemies enemy is not my friend.
billy bloke
oh balls
07.03.2010 00:21
Yeah, pretty much agree with @non's sentiments. IMHO he's lucky he's not received a kicking from 'his own team' before.
billy bloke
whoops
07.03.2010 01:00
billy bloke
Most communists in the UK are NOT from the working classes!
07.03.2010 02:41
not a communist
we are the people
07.03.2010 04:03
john EDL
John...can you EDL guys bring leaflets next time?
07.03.2010 07:18
anon
the comrade suffered no injuries and was unscathed by the attack
07.03.2010 09:29
Cancellation of Anti-DPRK Nuclear War Exercises Urged
Pyongyang, March 5 (KCNA) -- The U.S. and south Korean warmongers should immediately cancel the projected adventurous anti-DPRK nuclear war exercises though belatedly, not resorting to suicidal act of igniting the fuse of a war for aggression on the DPRK.
Minju Joson Friday says this in a signed commentary.
It goes on:
The United States and the south Korean puppet army are working with bloodshot eyes to make a preemptive attack on the DPRK any moment while staging Key Resolve and Foal Eagle joint military exercises.
What merits serious attention is that they are still running reckless even after the publication of the statement of a spokesman for the General Staff of the Korean People's Army. Those moves are absolutely intolerable as they are a blatant challenge to the DPRK that has exerted sincere efforts to defend peace on the Korean Peninsula and security of the Korean nation and achieve independent reunification of the country.
Should the U.S. imperialists and the south Korean puppet warmongers launch the joint military exercises for aggression defying the DPRK's repeated warnings, the KPA will react to them with strong military counteraction and, if necessary, mobilize all its offensive and defensive means including nuclear deterrent to mercilessly destroy their bulwark of aggression.
War does not know any mercy. If they ignite a war against the DPRK, they will have a taste of the strong self-defensive war deterrent which the army and people of the DPRK have built under the banner of Songun. Only deaths await the aggressors, the commentary concludes.
Ánd now a word from Juche-boy's sponsor
re EDL
07.03.2010 09:37
Just a little absurd perhaps ?
Brinkman Stats
Since when has patriotism been good for the working class
07.03.2010 10:29
Ironically the EDL denounce the Left because of their support of Hamas and Hezbollah in the Middle-east, at the same time the EDL support the UDA/UVF terrorists, they support the barbaric state of Israel who last year launched a murderous attack on one of the most heavily populated areas in the world, the Gaza Ghetto killing over 400 children. At the same time, though critical of the Labour Parties drive for war, the EDL have an uncritical and unconditional support for "our boys" fighting in some one elses country for what most people see is in the interest of the capitalist class in the EU and North America. They are happy that 17 and 18 years old are fed with this idea that to die for the rich ( The billionaire Queen and Capitalist state ) is the most honourable thing they can do - the EDL active promote and market this as some divine truth and again denounce anyone who has audacity to have a opposing view.
Yes we are english, we are from working class backgrounds, we work all week like dogs knowing that no matter our wage we are a pay cheque or two from being on the streets. There are those of us who are anarchists, socialists, trade unionists, that have physically fought with certain people in EDL 20 years ago under their previous hats of NF/BNP/BM.
If EDL think that they can control the streets, when they have shown they have problems controlling their bladders then think again. There is a real radical traditional in england that has always opposed patriotism, nationalism and monarchism. The EDL are the inheritors of the reactionary, strike breaking, repressive, jingoistic circus of the status quo - they are for those who want to act but fail to think, that can easily be manipulated for the purpose of repressing viable alternatives.
EDL? Your Streets? Bollocks!
Anarchist Antifa
I saw what happened
07.03.2010 10:37
Anyway
DEATH TO THE FUCKING NAZIS!
SMASH THE SYSTEM!
REVOLUTION!
NO CAPITALISM!
eyewitness
@antifa
07.03.2010 11:07
Also could you please show some proof of EDL support for any N.I. terrorist organisations, because if you can I shall be out of the EDL like a shot (no pun intended). You freely claim this so I assume you have some proof, I can't imagine you are just making this up......much !
Brinkman Stats
Many activists
07.03.2010 11:38
The neo-fascists, and BNP-ites together with their brown nose boot-licking pawns in the EDL would be better to understand and remember well, that Bolshevik activists as well as other militant activists are not intimidated and that the EDL days are numbered anyway. The EDL would do well to remember, that when the anti-fascist struggle in Britain does become more militant and well-organized, the thuggish tricks used by the EDL and other far-right organisations and parties will be met with a greater force than they first envisaged and they will be sent scurrying off to their paymasters with a bloody nose probably into the buildings of MI5.
History proves this.
For Bolshevism and socialist revolution!
Homepage:
http://aucpbenglishwebsite@blogspot.com
@Brinkman Stats
07.03.2010 13:22
http://twitter.com/edlupdates
From wikipedia:
The Ulster Defence Association (UDA) is a loyalist paramilitary group in Northern Ireland. It was formed in September 1971 and undertook an armed campaign of almost twenty-four years during "The Troubles". Most UDA attacks were carried out using the name Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF). It is classified as a terrorist group in the United Kingdom.
Look on their bulletin board and on their demos they often have loyalist paramilitary insignia.
Anarchist Antifa
bolsheism?
07.03.2010 18:13
what a dick!
jo blogs
All Power to the Soviets!
07.03.2010 18:43
Unity in Action - Diversity in Ideas
Impeerialism
07.03.2010 18:51
and murdering hundreds of thousands should ask themselves why they're kissing their
boss's fat arse.
Jo Blogs proud to be lickspittle
UDA involvement
07.03.2010 22:12
Thanks for the reply and I have indeed found the twitter post.
It doesn't actually say that the EDL support the UDA/UVF/UFF and due to the brevity of the tweet it doesn't actually say that the UDA formed the UDL either. I shall however give you the benefit of the doubt as it is a valid concern. To extrapolate from that though that the EDL is in league with terrorists is stretching a point. There is no copyright on the words "defence league". If you want to tell Loyalist paramilitaries to wind their neck in be my guest, but I'm not going to. On Friday there were gay rights campaigners marching with the EDL, using your reasoning perhaps you should say that the EDL are all gay too.
The EDL is in effect an open church, as surprising as they may sound to those of you that wish to dismiss it as a psychotically far right organisation. If one wishes to march to express to the government that they need to catch a grip on the creeping influence of extremist Islamic ideas then come along and march. Bring a hammer and sickle flag if you wish too, and if it's a big one I'll help you carry it.
You say that there are people on the "front lines" facing up to the "issues" (I detest that word) of militant Islam, well all I can say is that it hasn't worked otherwise an organisation like the EDL wouldn't have been formed.
The EDL is a young organisation whose bedrock support from its inception has been football supporters, does following football make one a "right wing thug" ? Incidentally I don't follow football myself, and it is worth noting that many people who have latched onto it and expressed ignorant and extremist views on the forum have been kicked off.
I sincerely hope that the common ground among the disparate groups, be they religious, social and political can come together with the same goal of shaking the rotten political establishment out of its coma and force it to take action, real and credible action to stop the spread of the real fascist threat, which is militant and extremist Islamic ideology. If that means marching to draw attention then let's do it...together !
With regard to the support for "our boys", what is wrong with that ? They didn't choose to go into these countries, they were sent by the politicians.....you know that as well as I do.
One thing the EDL don't understand is why the UAF demonstrate against it. Are the EDL advocating the flogging of rape victims and the stoning to death of female adulterers or the propagation of the idea that in law a woman's word is worth half that of a man etc etc...and there is plenty more as you well know ? No, it isn't, it is demonstrating against these ideas.
It is crazy.
I repeat, ANYONE, be they black, green, blue or purple, Taoist, Muslim, Ba'hai whatever, can join us on a march and enjoy the day out, and I promise they don't have to sing football songs :)) I certainly don't.
Brinkman Stats
@ Brinkman Stats
07.03.2010 23:28
Could you explain how you can continue to support EDL following their racist rampages through Stoke et al? Or how you can support them despite their latent sexism? (Look at their promotional videos) Could you explain why you support this group despite the fact that many of the organisers are also BNP activists. BNP is a fascist organisation (EDL is not) that opposes gay rights, so I was interested to hear gay campaigners were marching alongside you all in London. Could you say who, or what campaign group they were from? I'd be very interested...
Please, do me a favour and read the Anarchist Federation's excellent pamphlet 'Against Nationalism' and join our side!
[I know you won't really... :( but nothing is more depressing and sad than all this stupid arguing on the fucking internet]
The working class should know no national borders. Our exploitation is global. It is a capitalistic concept devised to divide segments of the working class against one another thereby removing our revolutionary capacity. Nationalism is inherently racist.
(A)
questions answered
08.03.2010 00:23
Well I have to say I have never chatted with an anarchist before, not a declared one anyway. That's not to say I haven't lived of course....
I shall reply to each and every one of your questions tomorrow, that's not to say because I don't have answers, it is simply that I shall accord you a full and honest answer to each one, and I simply don't have the time now.
Although I must say I find it rather odd to have to spend my time defending my affiliation with the EDL when I make no judgements on your chosen parameters of life.
The raison d'etre of the EDL is merely to protest about virulent militant Islam...end of....you wanna do that...join in :))
You never know you might enjoy yourself,
See you tomorrow....
Brinkman Stats
had a look
08.03.2010 01:18
I didn't see any reason why you should be against the aims of the EDL, and I saw plenty of profoundly held beliefs that concur with the values and thoughts of many EDL members.
But that shouldn't sway you, what should sway you is that the EDL exists outside politics, there are no extraneous matters between members outside of the core concern about the spread of extremist Islamic behaviour.
Of course politics is discussed in some forums but if you discuss sincerely there are plenty of good minds on there to engage with.
This evening a Canadian logged on, said he was over sixty and gay and how did we feel about it, could he get involved ? He received the warmest of welcomes from everybody and I have no doubt he will engage and discuss many times.
There are various other forums of course and a bit of banter and the occasional bout of righteous indignation and as is happening on the marches the older guys pull the young thrusters into line, but it happens extremely rarely.
There is no control from the leadership, they facilitate, but on the day everybody is just part of the same mindset. Certainly on Friday the Met were great, really chilled and as the EDL got to march and sing a bit everyone was happy. It's just people man, they feel the only thing they have left, their neighbourhoods their childrens lives and futures are without hope. Interestingly their was a poll on the forum and it asked "which was worst Islam or the EU"...something along those lines and 95% voted EU. Now...think about it.....if they protest about Islam but hate the EU more....somethings gotta give !!!
Where do you live ?
Brinkman Stats
UK left refusal to debate = censorship & stereotype posturing
08.03.2010 01:38
This amounts to a non-freedom of speech amongst those who consider themselves the gatekeepers on the political platform of the left. To reasonably question whether the left should be critical in it's giving of support to those in need of it when they fall short of the standards we expect and demand of ourselves in terms of reversing patriarchical relations and whether toleration of religious identity should be met with toleration of the good conduct and standards of what we consider to be the hallmarks of a free and open democratic society, is it not right to question the strictures of a faith in which some of it's followers justify man's right to enact punishment of his wife in the home? Is it not ridiculous for the left to at one time extol the virtues of the advance in women's liberation and the same time deny there is any need to discuss whether a particular religious stricture denies core progressive values of equality in it's conception and continued practice and how the left should be open to have a proper free debate on this?
My opinion is that it's better to have an open and honest debate about these issues, than not to have one, because of fear of upsetting a community relied upon for a large base of your political support. In having an open, intelligent debate instead of limiting the parameters of debate from the outset, one can more easily reach a position whereby one might better understand both sides of the argument. The counterbalance to the view just expressed takes account of the excesses of modern western consumerist culture in tandem with female liberation as being a debasing influence on moral ethics to which Islam moral stricture is a refuge, best articulated in the following quote by Naomi Wolf: “Many Muslim women I spoke with did not feel at all subjugated by the chador or the headscarf. On the contrary, they felt liberated from what they experienced as the intrusive, commodifying, basely sexualizing Western gaze. … Many women said something like this: …’how tiring it can be to be on display all the time. When I wear my headscarf or chador, people relate to me as an individual, not an object; I feel respected.’ This may not be expressed in a traditional Western feminist set of images, but it is a recognizably Western feminist set of feelings.”
Phyllis Chesler takes issue with this point of view, arguing the justification of a practice which denies women's right to exist in their own right is a step backwards. Others argue it is a practice which excuses oppression and that Wolf's point of view is nonsensical given that at the other extreme of wholehearted devotion to Islamic stricture, the reality is unjustifiable in oppressed nations and oppressive families in the west, where forced marriages, wife beating, daughter killing, honour killing and child brides are all acceptable practices. Women who say they are happy to wear the veil are, at best, making a virtue out of necessity, and at worst under threat of honour killing.
infidel
i hate anarchism
08.03.2010 03:32
Yeah we debate the politics of the movement and wider society, but do we jump in on right wing attacks? Do you think the left of the 1930's should have made their slogan "no to jewish money lenders, no to fascism"? No.
You anarchists understand the need for direct action, but when it comes to the importance of mass movements and moving beyond sectarianism, you're fucked.
ffs
Brinkman
09.03.2010 20:23
The problem most of us here have with the EDL is that a lot of people it attracts ARE open racists, BNP members etc. Yeah there probably are members whose only reason to be there is opposition to Islamic Extremism, and I do sympathise, to a point, with them. But we know that there are openly neo - nazi and racist supporters, we've seen the pics of Hitler salutes, heard the racist chants and seen known nazis at demo's.
Problem also is that all religions have their extremists, or idiotic moments/tendancies, that oppress - check out the Westboro Church, some KKK members are devout Christians, there are even Hindu fundamentalists - Army of the Lord Ram - who oppress.
Islam is not alone in possessing extremist nutters. But when Muslims are singled out alone then we have scapegoating and victimisation - the first steps to events like the Holocaust, if you look at Nazi propaganda regarding the Jews from the 20's and 30's and look at some of the stuff put out about Islam today there are very disturbing similarities.
If the EDL wanted to avoid the confrontation they get they should campaign against all religous extremism, then they would get taken a bit more seriously/face less opposition.
The extreme nationalism bit is a bit offputting as well, it does make you sound so much like the NF/BNP etc. to be seen as anything other than fascist.
Like religous extremism nationalism oppresses workers, holds us in check and divides us. This stops us making the changes that would improve our lives so much. While we support nationalism we support the hierarchies that exploit the many for the benefit of the few. This is true of all nations regardless - this is one reason anti-fascists of all political persuasions oppose racism. If we unite we would gety a real chance to push for the real improvements to our lives, this would stop politicians sending young working class lads and lasses off to get killed.
Check out the info recommended above, it has loads of great points.
IHTF
IHTF reply
10.03.2010 14:39
Well, thanks for your open approach and desire to chat rather than self righteously lambast as is the norm. While it is true that there are doubtless some people that will vote for the BNP within the EDL, my answer to that is, so what ? Would you refuse to talk to someone that would vote BNP ? If so why ? I have two black neighbours that are considering voting that way too, one never stops going on about how many of his blackBrit friends are thinking about it too. Last night one of my best friends told me he would be voting for them too and believe me when I say he is as far from a knuckle dragging thug as you can get, this evening we are off to a Greenpeace event in North London and I shall speak more to him about it. The point I am making is that BNP support is diversifying faster than many people realise and whose fault is that.....really ? Who has created the conditions for this to exist ? 10 years ago it certainly wasn't the case.
How's this for idea ? Nationalism itself is born of love not hate, love for one's traditions, country and neighbours, it is not born of hate for others. Consequently that love manifests itself in a desire to see the end of a creed that openly espouses world domination which by extension means domination of the UK.
Now I am not saying that nationalism is the reason for the existence of the EDL and it is certainly not the reason for many that join, but it for some I grant you.
For example we have a growing gay section one of whom only last night said that the "left" have abandoned the concerns of gays who as we all know shall suffer all kinds of horrors under sharia law. I believe yesterday they set up a LGBT EDL facebook group too. it is worth pointing out too that the gays of the NL are four square behind Geert Wilders. There are plenty of anti royalists also within the group and as you know a smattering of black/asian members, which no doubt will increase. You never know maybe we shall have animal rights campaigners opposed to halal slaughter joining us too, and women's rights groups are an obvious group that will have concerns . All these guys can march and join in and get no flak from the factions you fear so much, in fact I am almost tempted to say "phantom" factions.
A lack of intellectualism within the reknowned "knuckle dragging thugs" is offered as an excuse to attempt to deny them their right to an opinion. I am not a "knuckle dragging thug" myself but I consider they have the same right to an opinion as me. As much as I do with extremist Islamists, I too respect their right to an opinion and belief. I myself have spoken with many extremist Islamists, perhaps you guys should do the same with us.
On a personal level I believe anyone that refuses to see the threat posed by militant Islam is a fool, we have here a belief system that tells its adherents that they are superior to non-believers, doesn't that remind you of a certain ideology from the thirties ? I have spent much time in many many Muslim countries, have had several Muslim girlfriends,have read the Koran and speak a little Arabic and know that the majority of Muslims in the world are just trying to get through their lives day by day whilst loving their children.
The EDL has NO problem...I shall repeat that...NO...ZERO problem with these.
Your point about the protesting about other religions is noted but I would say that this would be a dilution of the more immediate message, and to say that it can be perceived as "racist", that magic catch all word, I would say this....any race can be an extremist Muslim !! Any attempt to portray it as racist is merely to serve the interests of the holier than thou indignant apologists and takes no account of objective reality.
You talk about the "working classes" and their exploitation, well this is the working class standing up for what I consider to be a noble cause, the eradication of a misogynistic, homophobic, chronically biased extreme interpretation of a religion advocating animal cruelty and shameful legal practices based upon a 1400 year old book whose veracity is at best debatable. Oh and not forgetting threatening world domination !
Thanks for listening ;)
Brinkman Stats
But
10.03.2010 21:00
yes I would - because of violent racism, homophobic attacks, division of the working class and all hte other apalling policies they pursue, I lived in an area predominanatly Muslim/asian of my home town and was made very welcome, there was great community spirit etc, until one St. George's day the local BNP decided ot celelbrate by marching dopwn the street smashing windows, vandalising caars and attacking Asian passers by."
"I have two black neighbours that are considering voting that way too, one never stops going on about how many of his blackBrit friends are thinking about it too. Last night one of my best friends told me he would be voting for them too and believe me when I say he is as far from a knuckle dragging thug as you can get, this evening we are off to a Greenpeace event in North London and I shall speak more to him about it."
Wish I could beleive that, I've heard so many similar storied from BNP memberts trying to justifiy themsdelves and they always turn out to be bollocks.
How's this for idea ? Nationalism itself is born of love not hate, love for one's traditions, country and neighbours, it is not born of hate for others. Consequently that love manifests itself in a desire to see the end of a creed that openly espouses world domination which by extension means domination of the UK.
But nationalism divides the working class and leads to hatred of anything considered not to be "your" nation. There are no positives ot this for the working class whatsoever. There's no sense in loyalty to an abstract idea that keeps you in a state of near poverty when a small number of people are living the life of luxury as a result.
For example we have a growing gay section one of whom only last night said that the "left" have abandoned the concerns of gays who as we all know shall suffer all kinds of horrors under sharia law.
Theleft have not abandoned the gay rights cause in the slightest, Most "left" people I know abhor the homophobia of extremem Islam - there are also many muslims who are not homophobic or gay themselves. Christianity of all kinds hardly holds a great track record in this respect - will you be protesting that too? The day I see the EDL protesting Christian fundamentalism in conjunction with Islamic is the day I can take some of their claims seriously,
never know maybe we shall have animal rights campaigners opposed to halal slaughter joining us too,
The BPP opposesed halal slaughter, and they're hardly the most open minded of people, its just a way of getting at Muslims, regardless of extremism/non extremism.
On a personal level I believe anyone that refuses to see the threat posed by militant Islam is a fool,
agreed, however the blanket attacks of the far right in which I include the EDL are not excused by this in the slightest.
The EDL has NO problem...I shall repeat that...NO...ZERO problem with these.
Your point about the protesting about other religions is noted but I would say that this would be a dilution of the more immediate message, and to say that it can be perceived as "racist", that magic catch all word, I would say this....any race can be an extremist Muslim !! Any attempt to portray it as racist is merely to serve the interests of the holier than thou indignant apologists and takes no account of objective reality.
Fact isthat there are a huge number of known racists among the EDL - members of neo nazi organisations and the BNP attend their demo's, this has been proven, in fact the EDL have been phoning people like Liam Pinkham and Mike Heaton to turn out ot their demo's - if you check other threads on here.
You talk about the "working classes" and their exploitation, well this is the working class standing up for what I consider to be a noble cause, the eradication of a misogynistic, homophobic, chronically biased extreme interpretation of a religion advocating animal cruelty and shameful legal practices based upon a 1400 year old book whose veracity is at best debatable. Oh and not forgetting threatening world domination !
Fair point, but unfortuately many in the EDL are attacking non extremist Muslims, and by default all asians without discriminating against only the extremists - like in Stoke where random passers by were abused, shop windows broken etc.
Lets face it a lot of whats said about the Islamic community is scaremongering and scapegoating - there will be no Sharia law in Britain, there is no significant threat from the majority of Muslims and the demonisation of the Muslim community is so similar to the demonisation of the Jewish community in the 20's and 30's to be allowed to go unchecked.
IHTF
IHTF reply
10.03.2010 23:36
While I am grateful you checked the posts to see if I had replied and had taken further time to reply i confess to being a little disappointed in your lack of manners, no "hello", no "goodbye". I know I am a supporter of the EDL's aims but I am also a human being.
In truth I don't know where to start, I was hoping for a dialogue not a trial, you have thrown accusations like "huge numbers of known racists"..."huge" really ? "Known" then please tell me who they are, this is a sincere question, because I genuinely don't know. I am not denying their presence you understand and I am never going to defend the indefensible.
With regard to Stoke, I was not there so have just had the EDL forum experience and what happened afterwards. What I shall relate is not my personal opinion but my impression of how that affected the EDL through the forum dialogue afterwards...
Stoke was a nightmare for the EDL and many very sound guys, including football guys left because of it making very strong statements on the forum, one (of many) for example was a guy whose forum name was everything you'd expect from a hardcore knuckle dragger yet he was so appalled and in his words "ashamed" he was off and made a very vocal and distressing exit. Funny this was a guy whose signature said if I remember "you can do anyone, you just have to know how"...I mean c'mon priceless eh !! This guy was an avid contributor and was held in such regard that when he was hurt at work there was a well supported collection for him on the forum. Now he really ranted and raved about how wrong it was and the guy had always talked the talk of "peaceful protest only" .......and he meant it obviously.
Now the EDL isn't the facebook page, it is the forum, they are ones who talk and discuss avidly and they are the ones who meet at demos and seek each other out. The are the ones who form policy to a large extent. I heard many many complaints about kettling and being unable to go the loo or drink water. Yeah I know proper prior planning and all that and don't bother with the pub joke in your reply please. These are young guys, never demo'd in their lives and as the other side know the police aren't always matey and can be deliberately provocative.
Anyway, much was talked about following Stoke, who did what, who are these people, what are we going to do about it ? There was always the knowledge that the BNP have large support in Stoke too and there is a lively football fan base there. The forum members talked for weeks previous about the potential for uproar by locals needing an excuse.
There was an online collection to pay for someone's car windows that were smashed, there was some talk about taxis being damaged that night too. It was appalling but and you'll hate me for this, it is the fault of the people the EDL draws like moths to a flame in particularly deprived areas. There is no advocacy of violence or vandalism within the EDL itself. And you must remember we are not talking throwing petrol bombs at the police here, we are talking louts, foul disgusting louts.
In London it was cool, we got to march and sing, there were no nasty chants, the police were professional as only the Met can be.
You say that most people on the left you know "abhor" homophobia in extremist Islam, I have no doubt that what you say is true but.......what are you saying and doing about it ? ....Nothing...nothing but "abhoring" it ! So where is the protest going to come from ? You being such a fan of the working classes should know that they actually do have morals and ethics, it is not beyond the wit of working class compassion to feel strongly about a bunch of people that want to kill their friends. or are there no working class gays ?
You talk of Christian fundamentals, you sound very much like many Arabs during the invasion of Iraq, they were more angry the Americans hadn't gone into their countries than they were that they had gone into Iraq. "They should liberate Egypt" says the Egyptian,"They should liberate Syria" says the Syrian. By the same token are we going to come out and march against ALL of the crazies in the world ? C'mon be realistic. And on a more pragmatic level Fundamentalist Christianity would be a hard one to sell.
You say "there is no significant threat from the majority of Muslims"...I agree entirely as do we all in the EDL and I am happy to see we can thereby agree that is a significant threat from a MINORITY of Muslims.
Cheap and easy I know, sorry ;)
Finally re "my black neighbour........", I am stunned you would imply that I am liar....who do you think you are ? I am old enough to not need to lie.
Thanks for listening ;)
Brinkman Stats
etc.
11.03.2010 21:00
"Known" then please tell me who they are, this is a sincere question, because I genuinely don't know. I am not denying their presence you understand and I am never going to defend the indefensible."
Wigan Mike and Liam Pinkham for starters, if you read other posts on here across the last few months you will notice that there are a number of pics of them at the marches. Another post on here shows that the EDL leadership have begged them to turn up at demo's, pretty damning evidence that.
You being such a fan of the working classes should know that they actually do have morals and ethics, it is not beyond the wit of working class compassion to feel strongly about a bunch of people that want to kill their friends. or are there no working class gays ?"
I am working class and anti - homophobic. While Islam - like most religions - espouses homophobia the actual Muslims I've spoken to personally do not agree, ok so they are the younger members. Plus why are the EDL only complaining about Muslim homophobia? Why do they not complain about Christian homophobia? BNP homophobia? Part of me cannot help but feel that this is just a means of getting at Muslims, like known neo-Nazis who campaign against halal slaughter and its cruelty and yet really don't care about animal rights in the slightest.
As I've said yes there may be some EDL members only concerned with extreme Islam - which includes the homophobes, but the majority are racist and blanket attack Muslims, there are videos and pictures displaying their attitudes - Hitler salutes, racist chants - etc.
" And on a more pragmatic level Fundamentalist Christianity would be a hard one to sell"
Why? Wrong is wrong regardless of source.
"...fault of the people the EDL draws like moths to a flame in particularly deprived areas. There is no advocacy of violence or vandalism within the EDL itself."
Problem is while a large majority of EDL supporters fall under this description and are allowed to turn up to demos that will be your public face, that is what people will associate you with, and that is why people will oppose you.
"You say that most people on the left you know "abhor" homophobia in extremist Islam, I have no doubt that what you say is true but.......what are you saying and doing about it ? ....Nothing..."
There is a lot being done, same as with your collection for damaged taxis and despair at what happened in Stoke some things aren't always in the public eye and are unprovable. Anti-fascist groups have demonstrated against extreme Muslim groups. Problem is to do this means taking sides with people like the BNP – to a point – which many people feel uncomfortable with, even sharing a viewpoint with the BNP is unthinkable. I can’t imagine any leftwinger/anarchist worth their salt marching with the BNP or protesting the same groups, or sharing the same line. While scapegoating nationalists play on these issues people who are genuinely opposed to extremism of any description will stay away on the premise, quite understandably, that they do not want to share any common ground with the BNP
IHTF
IHTF reply
12.03.2010 14:59
Thanks for your reply. C'mon, c'mon, I am still waiting for these names of "huge" numbers of "known" racists, you have given me two names, the same two names you posted earlier....I was expecting a long list...you are disappointing me.
Racist chants ?, Where were they in London ? There were certainly enough people running around with cameras waiting for them, so please give me a link to some footage.
Nazi salutes, give over my friend, have a word with yourself, there was one guy at London, strangely enough nobody knew him and he had a cameraman ready and waiting.....infiltrator...and not the first....and doubtless he will not be the last.
I am afraid that all the hyperbole surrounding this supposed extreme right wing bias is drivel, what the left are objecting to is the fact that we are becoming the forum for expressing concern. And while I appreciate their ideals as much as anyone, they don't do anything concrete unless you consider mudslinging to be concrete.
Many many of the points I have brought up you have failed to recognise as the truth and that is unfortunate, but in the fullness of time the empirical evidence will be too great for you to ignore.
Back to the "there is no significant threat from the majority of muslims"....aside from you thereby tacitly agreeing there is a significant threat from a minority of muslims one could also also ask if you imply too that there is a threat from the majority of muslims, it just isn't significant !!!
I ask you now one simple question, do you agree that there are problems with extremist Islam around the world in particular countries ?
And choose your answer carefully and objectively,
I myself have been to Saudi, Jordan, Kuwait, Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, Somalia, Senegal, Nigeria, Niger, Mali, Burkina Faso, Iraq, Egypt, Afghanistan, Morocco, UAE and Turkey to name just the heavily muslim ones. I have read the Quran and have had several Muslim girlfriends and studied Arabic.
I shall allow to to deduce from this that I am not in any way anti-Muslim.
Have a great day.
Brinkman Stats
Brinkman Stats
Hmmmm
13.03.2010 20:05
"Thanks for your reply. C'mon, c'mon, I am still waiting for these names of "huge" numbers of "known" racists, you have given me two names, the same two names you posted earlier....I was expecting a long list...you are disappointing me."
Obviously I am not on 1st name terms with every bneo naxi in Britain, however the two mentioned do have a number of cohorts who attend with them
Racist chants ?, Where were they in London ?
NO, Birmingham, Leeds, Stoke and Luton. - search for i on youtube there is enough to keep you busy all day.
"Nazi salutes, give over my friend, have a word with yourself, there was one guy at London, strangely enough nobody knew him and he had a cameraman ready and waiting.....infiltrator...and not the first....and doubtless he will not be the last."
Funny because I have seen more than one photograp of more than one demo - seriously, scan the other EDL threads on here and you will see many, many more. Then there was the burining of the anti-nazi flag, what wopuld you call that?
"I am afraid that all the hyperbole surrounding this supposed extreme right wing bias is drivel, what the left are objecting to is the fact that we are becoming the forum for expressing concern. And while I appreciate their ideals as much as anyone, they don't do anything concrete unless you consider mudslinging to be concrete."
'Fraid not, if you take the time to look at the sources I have mentioned (other threads on here, the prescene of known Neo - Nazis, also check facebook acvccounts of EDL supporters and the VNN/Stormfront forums for more evidence - there's plenmty of it including one from known Neo Nazi Liam Pinkham discussing a phone call from the EDL leadership inviting him to turn up to EDL demo's)
Many many of the points I have brought up you have failed to recognise as the truth and that is unfortunate, but in the fullness of time the empirical evidence will be too great for you to ignore."
I have seen way too much evidence of nazi/BNP involement to be convinced that the EDL are not far right - not only the above but the involvement of Chris Renton, Jeff Marsh, Chris Kelway etc all prove the links.
"Back to the "there is no significant threat from the majority of muslims"....aside from you thereby tacitly agreeing there is a significant threat from a minority of muslims one could also also ask if you imply too that there is a threat from the majority of muslims, it just isn't significant !!! "
No a very very very tinythreat from a very very tiny amount of Muslims does in no way whatsoever imply that the majority of muslims are a threat tacitly ot otherwise and to think so is a typical right wing witchunt mentality (see "Holocaust." for further details)
"I ask you now one simple question, do you agree that there are problems with extremist Islam around the world in particular countries ?
And choose your answer carefully and objectively,
I myself have been to Saudi, Jordan, Kuwait, Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, Somalia, Senegal, Nigeria, Niger, Mali, Burkina Faso, Iraq, Egypt, Afghanistan, Morocco, UAE and Turkey to name just the heavily muslim ones. I have read the Quran and have had several Muslim girlfriends and studied Arabic."
There's something about all that that really does not ring true, if you are so steeped in "muslim experience" then why do you consider them to be such a threat, I really have my suspicions that that is bull to be honest. The majority of the EDL know nothing of real Muslim people. I have read bits of the Koran and have many Muslim mates as well as having lived in an area with a high population of Muslim in habitants and have never witnessed anything or heard anything that makes me think that Muslims are a greater threat than any other organised religion. In fact my experiences have convinced me otherwise.
I shall allow to to deduce from this that I am not in any way anti-Muslim. - apart from joining and supporting an openyl anti-muslim organisation connected to the BNP and neo-nazi involvement.
IHTF
southwales
09.08.2010 16:03
We hate the nazi's and fascist from the past to the present look at stormfront for example they consider us the ZDL because we support isreal and show solidarity with jew's.
You wont stop the EDL it is impossible your tatics are a laugh, You only alienate people you want on your side the white working class when you call them nazi fascist and racist.
I guess it is easy when you live in nice middle class homes innit?
southwales
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