The Anarchist / Indymedia reaction to the EDL is not working
Durruti02 | 24.01.2010 11:41 | Analysis | Social Struggles | Workers' Movements | Birmingham
.. when i and other London anarchists/radicals scouted the EDL demo in Brum in sept 2009 they had no more than 100 on the demo and another few dozen more fasc types hanging about the edges looking for trouble. Over the 5 months since then the EDLs numbers, as we predicted, have climbed dramatically while the numbers attending anti- protests has not kept up. Yesterday we are told there were between 1000-1500 EDL and supporters and 300 Antis. And as in Notts IF the thick blue line had not held the Antis would have been done.
While I argued back then that the EDL was politically a new type of politics, that they are loyalist and should be opposed politicaly, and physically only if people attempted to attack muslim areas, the vast majority of anachists (and the Trot left) and particularly on IndyUK, have argued that
1) the EDL are simply fascists
and thus pushed two tactics that
2) the EDL then must be physically opposed and driven from the streets.
and
3) to attack and ridicule them on the internet, a campaign typified by one Indymedia based individual (Mista Journalist/Lozza/Trolldestroya/Harpic/Robesphere/Demmy God/Troll Deflator /Dangermoose etc etc ) which seeks to destroy the EDL (having decided they are Nazis) by identifying the significant neo-fascist involvement in it, and noting their violence and attacks on the police.
So is the analysis correct and are the tactics working?" These are very very simple questions that must be asked and analysed and answered if we are to progress. .
Imho the analysis is incorrect and the tactics are not working. But first who am I comment. Ok, I first got involved with anti-racist and antifascist politics in 1978 when i joined my local "..... Against Racism" and then the ANL (and SWP), which i stayed with till the early 1980s. When ANL was wound down and I moved to London I was on the periphery of AFA,i.e. I attended actions/demos but was not involved in the hits. However as I got more involved in working class and anarchist politics and studied both the history of anti-fascism and the working class it became evident to me that anti-fascism is not an anarchist politics but the politics of the middle class that seeks to defend (as does loyalism ironically) the status quo. And when AFA declared that Anti-fascism in this era could no longer work I agreed 100%. Does this mean fascism should not be opposed? No of course not but it is how. I am also a shop steward for over 20 years and am heavily involved in local radical politics and to a lesser extent @ politics
So 1) is the analysis correct? No it is not. Fascism is the state/capitalism using race or reaction to divide the working class so it can not unite and resist or overthrow it. While in effect the EDL is divisive, on paper and on camera, unlike fascist groups, the EDL continuously argues it is multi-ethnic and anti-racist and anti-fascist and indeed of its top activists there are mixed race and jewish. And in December EDL activists after being taunted over race attacked and beat up nazis in Whitehall, London.
Yes the EDL has fascists involved, but mostly on the periphery, but if you study their forums, as I do, you will see a very strong rejection of fascism as 'anti-british' and a rejection of 'racism' as 'anti british'. It is clear to me as someone who has studied groups like this for over 30 years that the EDL are not 'fascist' but 'loyalist'. That means they want to defend 'britain' and 'britishness'. And here lies the problem. While 'britain' is on many ways progressive ( EDL continuously counterpose and defend liberal british values re women and gays and race against conservative fundamentalist islamist attitudes) it is also playing a role in the world that EDL supporters simply do not acknowledge. So the EDL ends up being a defender of not only progressive social attitudes but more importantly a state and all that goes along with that, a defence of privilage, of class division, and of invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. They while not fascist are then still extremely dangerous and divisive.
And then so how are the liberal anarchist tactics outlined above working?
2) Attempts to oppose the EDL physically have been a total failure. Indeed if it were not for the police on several occasions the Anti-s would have been quite simply mullahed.
and 3) The info/disinfo/ridicule tactic probably does work to an extent and it is useful to an extent that the links are publicised but sadly the links have been regularly exaggerated and confused which has led the mass of anarchists to make 2+2=5 and then react wrongly. See above.
So clearly we are at an impasse. Neither tactic is working. So can and should the EDL be opposed? Yes and yes. But loyalism as is the EDL ( and it is the same for fascism), can only be opposed from inside the working class and any attempts to oppose it from the outside contribute to it's growth.
But first we have to properly understand what we are dealing with. And that is a movement that has come out of a working class army background in fury at what they saw as insult to their comrades, and has drawn to it 1) thousends of angry and disempowered young men, who btw have every right to be angry as they have been disempowered by capital. They are drawn to EDL as it is offers a simple outlet for that anger against an 'enemy within' and one critically that the state will allow. If a similar angry violent street movement had been developed against e.g. the bankers it would of course have been attacked by the state. These youth while racist in a casual way (deal with it @s, thats life outside your ghetto) are not fascists BUT if we stay in our ghettos and regard all these kids AS fascists it is more likely they will become so. And 2) ?? who is behind EDL; EDL undoubtedly is playing a role in the so called 'war on terror' and i doubt very much whether they are at the very least not being given tacit support by Suits at one level or other particularly if you note their army connections
We have an historic opportunity. Capitalism is at it's most doubted for 50 years and the state is despised by most people. And the authoritarian left are at an historic low point in their acceptance in the working class. If we are to stop reaction we must have the respect of and the ear of those who are drawn to it. None of us takes a blind bit if notice of people who we neither respect nor even know especially if they are shouting at us, saying they want to attack us!
Libertarians and anarchists have a simple choice. Remain on the outside of the working class (and end up a victim of reaction from the surging EDL or BNP) or become part of the class and create a progressive working class movement that will draw youth away form reaction like the EDL and maybe even a movement that can one day overthrow the state and capitalism. It is in our hands.
While I argued back then that the EDL was politically a new type of politics, that they are loyalist and should be opposed politicaly, and physically only if people attempted to attack muslim areas, the vast majority of anachists (and the Trot left) and particularly on IndyUK, have argued that
1) the EDL are simply fascists
and thus pushed two tactics that
2) the EDL then must be physically opposed and driven from the streets.
and
3) to attack and ridicule them on the internet, a campaign typified by one Indymedia based individual (Mista Journalist/Lozza/Trolldestroya/Harpic/Robesphere/Demmy God/Troll Deflator /Dangermoose etc etc ) which seeks to destroy the EDL (having decided they are Nazis) by identifying the significant neo-fascist involvement in it, and noting their violence and attacks on the police.
So is the analysis correct and are the tactics working?" These are very very simple questions that must be asked and analysed and answered if we are to progress. .
Imho the analysis is incorrect and the tactics are not working. But first who am I comment. Ok, I first got involved with anti-racist and antifascist politics in 1978 when i joined my local "..... Against Racism" and then the ANL (and SWP), which i stayed with till the early 1980s. When ANL was wound down and I moved to London I was on the periphery of AFA,i.e. I attended actions/demos but was not involved in the hits. However as I got more involved in working class and anarchist politics and studied both the history of anti-fascism and the working class it became evident to me that anti-fascism is not an anarchist politics but the politics of the middle class that seeks to defend (as does loyalism ironically) the status quo. And when AFA declared that Anti-fascism in this era could no longer work I agreed 100%. Does this mean fascism should not be opposed? No of course not but it is how. I am also a shop steward for over 20 years and am heavily involved in local radical politics and to a lesser extent @ politics
So 1) is the analysis correct? No it is not. Fascism is the state/capitalism using race or reaction to divide the working class so it can not unite and resist or overthrow it. While in effect the EDL is divisive, on paper and on camera, unlike fascist groups, the EDL continuously argues it is multi-ethnic and anti-racist and anti-fascist and indeed of its top activists there are mixed race and jewish. And in December EDL activists after being taunted over race attacked and beat up nazis in Whitehall, London.
Yes the EDL has fascists involved, but mostly on the periphery, but if you study their forums, as I do, you will see a very strong rejection of fascism as 'anti-british' and a rejection of 'racism' as 'anti british'. It is clear to me as someone who has studied groups like this for over 30 years that the EDL are not 'fascist' but 'loyalist'. That means they want to defend 'britain' and 'britishness'. And here lies the problem. While 'britain' is on many ways progressive ( EDL continuously counterpose and defend liberal british values re women and gays and race against conservative fundamentalist islamist attitudes) it is also playing a role in the world that EDL supporters simply do not acknowledge. So the EDL ends up being a defender of not only progressive social attitudes but more importantly a state and all that goes along with that, a defence of privilage, of class division, and of invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. They while not fascist are then still extremely dangerous and divisive.
And then so how are the liberal anarchist tactics outlined above working?
2) Attempts to oppose the EDL physically have been a total failure. Indeed if it were not for the police on several occasions the Anti-s would have been quite simply mullahed.
and 3) The info/disinfo/ridicule tactic probably does work to an extent and it is useful to an extent that the links are publicised but sadly the links have been regularly exaggerated and confused which has led the mass of anarchists to make 2+2=5 and then react wrongly. See above.
So clearly we are at an impasse. Neither tactic is working. So can and should the EDL be opposed? Yes and yes. But loyalism as is the EDL ( and it is the same for fascism), can only be opposed from inside the working class and any attempts to oppose it from the outside contribute to it's growth.
But first we have to properly understand what we are dealing with. And that is a movement that has come out of a working class army background in fury at what they saw as insult to their comrades, and has drawn to it 1) thousends of angry and disempowered young men, who btw have every right to be angry as they have been disempowered by capital. They are drawn to EDL as it is offers a simple outlet for that anger against an 'enemy within' and one critically that the state will allow. If a similar angry violent street movement had been developed against e.g. the bankers it would of course have been attacked by the state. These youth while racist in a casual way (deal with it @s, thats life outside your ghetto) are not fascists BUT if we stay in our ghettos and regard all these kids AS fascists it is more likely they will become so. And 2) ?? who is behind EDL; EDL undoubtedly is playing a role in the so called 'war on terror' and i doubt very much whether they are at the very least not being given tacit support by Suits at one level or other particularly if you note their army connections
We have an historic opportunity. Capitalism is at it's most doubted for 50 years and the state is despised by most people. And the authoritarian left are at an historic low point in their acceptance in the working class. If we are to stop reaction we must have the respect of and the ear of those who are drawn to it. None of us takes a blind bit if notice of people who we neither respect nor even know especially if they are shouting at us, saying they want to attack us!
Libertarians and anarchists have a simple choice. Remain on the outside of the working class (and end up a victim of reaction from the surging EDL or BNP) or become part of the class and create a progressive working class movement that will draw youth away form reaction like the EDL and maybe even a movement that can one day overthrow the state and capitalism. It is in our hands.
Durruti02
Comments
Hide the following 27 comments
"The Indymedia reaction"
24.01.2010 12:47
If your analysis of the "indymedia reaction" is so wrong, why should we have any faith in your ability to discern the meaning of the EDL forums?
Where is your mass movement Durruti02? Its an easy job to criticise (your own interpretation of what) others are doing, but you never seem to follow it up be giving us an example of you putting your own prescription into action. Show us the way oh visionary.
According to you, if we don't do it your way the entire working class is going to turn into the EDL! Obviously we need help, and we need it fast!
Fukmilitarism
@ Durutti
24.01.2010 13:34
"While in effect the EDL is divisive, on paper and on camera, unlike fascist groups, the EDL continuously argues it is multi-ethnic and anti-racist and anti-fascist and indeed of its top activists there are mixed race and jewish. And in December EDL activists after being taunted over race attacked and beat up nazis in Whitehall, London."
You think that to support Isreael makes them not racist? What world do you live in?
Durutti, do you think this article is relevent?
Street politics in Hamburg, 1932-3
"For the Nazis it was a matter of exploiting class antagonism in the Altstadt in order to reach their objective; before they could take formal hold of power they had first to make sure that at the base, the political, social and cultural and territorial possessions of the working class in their neighbourhoods had been wrested from their control and had been reallocated to themselves as the force most capable of protecting the interests of bourgeois society."
(A)
good article
24.01.2010 13:40
Maybe the first step is to set up an equivalent to Indymedia which is actually relevant to the working class, i.e. not full of articles about animal rights activism, smash EDO etc etc
give up activism
@ give up activism
24.01.2010 14:07
It was hidden for claiming that the EDL aren't racist. There are far too many recorded instances of racism at EDL rallies for this to be accurate. Furthermore it was hidden as repeated content, because there was nothing new in it. Durutti02 had said all the same things in comments ad naseum.
"Maybe the first step is to set up an equivalent to Indymedia which is actually relevant to the working class, i.e. not full of articles about animal rights activism, smash EDO etc etc"
Good luck with that. However, no-one is preventing anyone from posting articles that are "actually relevant" to the working class - although my personal understanding is that the working class are not a mono-thought clique - and that there are certainly working class people who think anti-militarism and animal rights issues are of relevance to them.
If you think that you have articles that are relevant to the working class, why aren't you posting them up?
ftp
edl
24.01.2010 14:15
steve
e-mail:
swellbelly@hotmail.co.uk
A shambles
24.01.2010 14:43
What this suggests is that the people who come on EDL demos are soft racists who have watched Green Street a few too many times, and there is a minority of people who actually give a shit about the loyalist/racist/islamaphobic politics behind the EDL. After almost a year of this they have achieved getting some up for it racists on the streets, but failed at instilling any organisation or discipline.
Strategically fighting them on the streets is pointless and counterproductive because this is exactly what they want. All we need to do is leave them to it and soon enough the police will do to them what they do to us.
(B)
maintaining the status quo
24.01.2010 14:53
I was at the small Stoke anti- protest (as an individual with friends) and was filled with contradictory thoughts, on the one hand wanting to boost numbers, on the ohter hand a rapidly growing understanding that the tried and tested tactics do not make a difference, ie chants to 'smash the scum off our streets' (er how exactly? completely true that the safety of the anti's was due to police).
I would like to give credit to the organisers' efforts and intentions, I am sure they are experienced and dedicated anti-fascists.
However the lowlight was having first a stoke councillor speak from the platform - a man who is partially responsible for the conditions the stoke working class find themsleves in, for creating the opportunity for the right to make ground - unlike the EDL. What's more in his speech, whether bullshit or stunning ignorance, he claimed that stoke was practically a utopia with no problems whatsoever, no deprivation or poverty, no class, racial or political tensions, filled with bluebirds, rainbows and ickle baby deer, and he couldn't understand why the EDL would choose to visit.... As this was being digested the next speaker was a Conservative!!! which did draw some heckles at least unlike the stoke councillor (!!? was he listened to respectfully by the crowd because of being asian? the man is part of the actual problem and what's more an idiot). These two enemies of the working class will have no resonance whatsoever with people and their choice as speakers in my opinion shows a lack of understanding and analysis by those who invited them.
(One more depressing sight was a placard reading 'oatcakes not racism' - another giveaway of its holder's lack of understanding of the causes of a growth in sympathy for the right. Whimsical slogans do not change disempowered minds)
I do not argue that these demos should not happen but they should be seen as the *lowest* priority of anti-fascist action, as they are essentially fire fighting, even symbolic, and on the day achieve nothing in the ongoing struggle, especially with numbers as they were yesterday - other than boosting the egos of certain thrill seeking excitable types.
Fire prevention on the other hand lies in the slow and less glamourous day to day work of organising in the community and workplace (and that doesn't mean having a recruitment/petition stall in the city centre...)... looking and listening out for issues that genuinely unite all working class people in a particular area, whether or not they are deemed to be ideological priorities... these are the things that will bring people together, energise, and help to *correctly* draw the battle lines.
jbshldn
Homepage:
http://www.libertyandsolidarity.org
"soon enough the police will do to them what they do to us"
24.01.2010 15:35
Furthermore given they useful role they play in propping up the teetering construct of the "Clash of Civilizations" the question should perhaps be -- what evidence is there that they are not part of a Gladio/Strategy of Tension type operation, together with their counter part Islam4UK?
hmmm
Yes, no, maybe
24.01.2010 16:20
The people who came out in stoke to appose the EDL did a damn good job considering the circumstances, I know if I lived in stoke it'd have been very easy to stay at home and watch the telly. Realistically they didnt single handedly destroy the EDL and convert every member to what every cause you think most important but they showed that in the local community race relations are not dead.
All this talk of class is somewhat outdated, the Bourgeoisie of marx or Durruti is no more, the middle class do not own the factories that the working class toil in, they are subservient to the heads of a few multinationals. As for the working class there are no means of production for them to take control of, it has long since left the country. What remains are cultural differences and this is what the EDL are exploiting, as Much attention is after all given to the Burqa as to the threat of bombings.
anon
good post form another thread
24.01.2010 16:30
24.01.2010 12:14
For that reason there will always be tensions and as the first wave of recruits seem to be alienated from the latest event in Stoke it will be the case that those that think Stoke was a success will gain more influence in the coming weeks. People will turn up not despite of the violence and attacks on property but because of it which will mean the leadership will get increasingly distant from the views and aspirations of the people that actually make up the numbers.
It must also be seen that the BNP have still proscribed the EDL and scenes of a hostile drunken patriotic mob won't do the BNP any favours in Stoke. The BNP are an ultra conservative movement who despise the lower working classes as much as the tories or labour, ultimately its whether the working class anarchist left can occupy and make progressive initiatives to further highlight this.
What the EDL seemed to have achieved is bring out sections of the class that hate the status quo, hate the political classes and despise the police. It is positive on that level. I for one will not discount these people as enemies, they can be won over, every rebellion has always attracted reactionary ideas but these ideas aren't static, they can change and become a progressive anti-xenophobic force.
Anarchist Antifa
D02
liberty and solidarity talking sense
24.01.2010 16:31
D02
Ha But..
24.01.2010 17:19
"While in effect the EDL is divisive, on paper and on camera, unlike fascist groups, the EDL continuously argues it is multi-ethnic and anti-racist and anti-fascist and indeed of its top activists there are mixed race and Jewish And in December EDL activists after being taunted over race attacked and beat up Nazis in Whitehall, London."
You think that to support Israel makes them not racist? What world do you live in?
Durutti, do you think this article is relevant?
Street politics in Hamburg, 1932-3
Fascism is a complete abdication of personal responsibility. You are surrendering all responsibility for your own actions to the state in the belief that in unity there is strength, which was the definition of fascism represented by the original Roman symbol of the bundle of bound twigs. yes, it is a very persuasive argument: “In unity there is strength.” But inevitably people tend to come to the conclusion that the bundle of twigs will be much stronger if all the twigs are of a uniform size and shape[.] So it goes from “in unity there is strength” to “in uniformity there is strength”, and from there it proceeds to the excess of fascism as we’ve seen them exercise throughout the twentieth century and into the twenty-first.
Now anarchy, on the other hand, is almost starting from the principle that “in diversity there is strength”, which makes more sense from the point of view of looking at the natural world. [sic] The whole program of evolution seems to be to diversify, because in diversity there is strength.
And if you apply that on a social level, you get something like anarchy. Everybody is recognised as having their own abilities, their own particular agendas, and everybody has their own need to work cooperatively with other people.
Alan Moore Magpie’s book…
“Libertarians and anarchists have a simple choice. Remain on the outside of the working class (and end up a victim of reaction from the surging EDL or BNP) or become part of the class and create a progressive working class movement that will draw youth away form reaction like the EDL and maybe even a movement that can one day overthrow the state and capitalism. It is in our hands. “
Indeed I would agree, however when you come out with you last bout of paranoia you did and acted outside of the working class trusting and repeating the lies of the Middle Class to attack myself, your words then was
“Look I know you struggle with serious mental heath problems and good luck with that ( and I do mean that sincerely) and I appreciate you mean well but you come out with way too much shite on a regular basis.
But I am making a point here. Look I have never called for you to be censored and yet all the time I have known your boast of being a . I have censored myself. Why? because I have no proof just the words of a friend of mine and an ex friend of yours to go on. So I keep shtum. Now when I argue against you and others on Indy you support their censorship of my opinions. LOL
Maybe you can now see what should remain censored and what should NOT be censored. You understand? Debate should never be censored. Past unsubstantiated accusations should be. You understand?”
However you go on to repeat the lies told you and what you are a friend of the Working Class? You have never and will never be a friend of our class, like the Middle class you repeat the lies of you are the same problem to our class not a solution, they lie about the Working Class just for the same gain as you do and that is to place us in fear.
I hold no fear of people like Durruti02 and no one should, ill repeat myself if one is attacked I shall not react in any form, but within the law (that yes I disagree with) I shall take action people like Durruti02 use fear to get others to act to there will, it is when the working class lose this fear we become stronger and gain more freedom, I shall no longer shall remain in fear because I desire anarchy not anarchism.
underclassrising.net
almost there.
25.01.2010 08:44
But, your analysis of what to do about it is not so good. Get with the working class, you say. Already am, I say. Now what?
The controlling force of the EDL (as opposed to the mob) is not so easy to sympathise with. There is a deliberate attempt here to mobilise a mob with an anti-Islam focus, to stir things up and create tension amongst the working classes. To isolate even further the Islamic communities. There may be some serious money behind it somewhere. It is hard not to see some similarities with Mosley and his gang.
The street soldiers of the EDL could listen to other views, but only from those they respect. Which is never going to be the UAF.
A powerful strong anarchist force on the streets would start a few people asking questions. There are plenty who want the ruck, but don't particularly want to be drawn into EDL type politics. There are plenty we could get on our side if we had the balls and the strength to get out there and do it. And I don't mean hide behind the cops when things get a bit dodgy.
But sadly, the 'anarchist' movement is too busy arguing politics from it's armchair, and talking about the 'working class' as though it were something 'other'.
hoolie
Alienation
25.01.2010 09:06
The EDL are most certainly racist, they are blaming extreme Islam for their problems. We cannot deny they don't have real issues, but fighting and ignoring their problems will lead to our failure. These people are not the enemy, their just on a different side.
It is the role of anti-fascists and anarchists, not to beat them to submission, but to bring them on our side. It is our role empower and involve these people with our politics, just like the EDL has.
20
In a Class of it's own?
25.01.2010 09:25
"Libertarians and anarchists have a simple choice. Remain on the outside of the working class (and end up a victim of reaction from the surging EDL or BNP) or become part of the class and create a progressive working class movement that will draw youth away form reaction like the EDL "
"Maybe the first step is to set up an equivalent to Indymedia which is actually relevant to the working class, i.e. not full of articles about animal rights activism, smash EDO etc etc"
"However, no-one is preventing anyone from posting articles that are "actually relevant" to the working class - although my personal understanding is that the working class are not a mono-thought clique - and that there are certainly working class people who think anti-militarism and animal rights issues are of relevance to them."
"Fire prevention on the other hand lies in the slow and less glamourous day to day work of organising in the community and workplace (and that doesn't mean having a recruitment/petition stall in the city centre...)... looking and listening out for issues that genuinely unite all working class people in a particular area, whether or not they are deemed to be ideological priorities... these are the things that will bring people together, energise, and help to *correctly* draw the battle lines."
"All this talk of class is somewhat outdated, the Bourgeoisie of marx or Durruti is no more, the middle class do not own the factories that the working class toil in, they are subservient to the heads of a few multinationals. As for the working class there are no means of production for them to take control of, it has long since left the country. What remains are cultural differences and this is what the EDL are exploiting"
"What the EDL seemed to have achieved is bring out sections of the class that hate the status quo, hate the political classes and despise the police. It is positive on that level. I for one will not discount these people as enemies, they can be won over, every rebellion has always attracted reactionary ideas but these ideas aren't static, they can change and become a progressive anti-xenophobic force."
" You have never and will never be a friend of our class, like the Middle class you repeat the lies of you are the same problem to our class not a solution, they lie about the Working Class just for the same gain as you do and that is to place us in fear."
"Soft racists, support rooted in support for the armed forces and distrust of Islam, up for a row with just about anybody. Cops (of any nationality) will do fine. These are mainly working class lads with some anger to vent, and you are quite right, that does not make them fascist."
False consciousness
EDL as a one-trick pony
25.01.2010 10:19
At the moment the EDL are pretty much a one-trick pony - they are just focused on being against Islamic extremism, which, let's face it, most of us are too. We just include other religions as well.
It will be interesting to see if they develop their ideology or policies wider to other issues. The more they cover, the more they risk alienating their support base.
Some possible ideas for us:
1) we link up more with atheist and anti-religion groups to steal the EDL's thunder. Anarchists have often attacked religious institutions in the past, and there are no shortage of openly racist, homophobic and sexist targets.
2) we highlight the Nanny State tendencies of the EDL, that supports the military and encourages working-class kids to get suckered into being cannon fodder for politicians' and multinationals' wars.
anon
Common Ground
25.01.2010 12:35
Forgive me for interupting but as an interested observer I felt I might be able to add something to this debate. I'm not trolling or looking for a flame war so won't respond to posts of that nature.
I have followed the progress of the EDL and the counter movement that has sought to oppose them since the demonstration in Birmingham last year, and it appears to me that there is serious confusion in both camps about the intentions of the other.
You oppose fascism and I am more than convinced that the EDL leadership and rank and file fervently hold the same opinion. It is quite correct to state that true fascists have tried to penetrate the EDL (as your activists have observed on demonstrations) but they are certainly not welcome. There is no formal membership system so excluding these fascists from attending demonstrations is almost impossible, however the fact that antifa (?) protesters are able to recognise these people by sight surely suggests they are a tiny monority, not just in the EDL but in society at large? The analysis in the OP rejecting the accusation of fascism is correct and I would add that by carelessly labellling these people in that way you have created a sense of anger and antipathy that need not exist - at least on this specific issue.
You accuse the EDL of being racist, they would vigorously deny that they are and the inclusive message they advertise would suggest the leadership element firmly hold that view. The presence of numerous non-whites within the EDL would also support this contention and it seems that you have equated an opposition to anything Muslim with racism. If you view Islam in its extreme form as a repressive, regressive and fascistic cult then the EDL are actually taking a line of implacable anti-fascism. The EDL have held the line that they have no problem with Islam or with Muslims more broadly, confining their ire to the radical Islamists. That is a position I and very many of the general public have considerable sympathy with. I have seen the youtube videos and anti-Islamic chants and I don't agree with them, however that in itself is not racism.
You talk about the EDL's politics, to the best of my knowledge the EDL has no politics and no interest in getting involved in politics. They're not looking to bring about revolution, empower any particular class or get themselves elected. Their strength is in the fact that they are a single issue group and becuase they are publically banging the drum about an issue that very many people in 'middle England' are deeply concerned about and feel is not being properly addressed.
I don't expect many of you to agree with any of that but hopefully it may provide at least some food for thought.
Areas where definitive common ground exist are these:
Both sides are pro-active people prepared to be more than sheeple over issues that concern them. Both sides are dynamic and broad coalitions of people with widely differing views, but those people can unite in a common cause on a single issue. I humbly suggest that yours is anti-fascism and there's is anti-Islamic extremism.
If you take a step back and look at it you are both arguing different sides of the same coin. The major problem is that you call them fascists and oppose them, which in turn is interpreted as your tacit support for the extremists they oppose.
I'm not suggesting a Carling and lentil fuelled love in would ever be possible but fundamentally (if I can use that word here without irony) both sides are angry with the State for the situation the UK now finds itself in.
Instead of allowing those in power to sit back and smugly observe their successful divide and rule tactics, why not pause, suspend your disbelief for a while and try talking to each other?
Observer
@Observer.
25.01.2010 13:45
no-one
Reply to No-one
25.01.2010 15:01
I think the problem here is both sides over playing one argument and under-playing the other to suit their view of the situation.
The thug element you refer to is undeniably present in the EDL and that is up to them to address. As I tried to highlight in my first post they appear to be a very diverse mob, but the overwhelming reaction on their forum to the events in Stoke ranges from anger and disgust to profound disappointment. I'd venture that does not suggest that those causing trouble are representative of the majority, and I've also seen the videos of violence and disorder dished out by members of the UAF but am confident their behaviour does not reflect the position of all its members. Broad brush labelling is seldom helpful or accurate in my experience.
The other side of the coin is of course the fact that anti-fascist people are (whether deliberately or not) appearing to align themselves with extremists who should be anthema to everything you stand for.
You shout "fascist", they shout "sharia lover". Neither accusation is accurate and both sides appear set on continuing to confront each other.
Your comment that "It is always about shifting back to a kneejerk hatred of (mostly imaginary/strawdog) scary bogeymen" seems equally applicable to the position that you are coming from. The EDL are not Harbingers of a fascist state, they are a frustrated working class reaction to the undeniable rise of extremist Islam in the UK, and the threat that it poses to broader society.
If I may be candid, the evidence suggests that you are not going to physically overwhelm these people and shrill cries of "racist, fascist, BNP" etc have been used so often out of context that they've ceased to have the impact and inspire the shame that they should. In short, the antifa have shot their bolt and are having an ever decreasing effect on the debate.
I am merely suggesting that contacts at some level between the organisations to try and definitively hammer out the position of both may, at this point, be a productive new direction to consider. You dislike the thug element within the EDL and apparently so do the majority of them. They dislike Islamic extremism and the pressure to allow a creeping acceptance by the Judiciary (80 odd sharia courts already operating and presided over by - among others -that comic villan Choudary) of Sharia law. I'd imagine that unless the people here are total hypocrites that they feel the same way. Both sides are thoroughly pissed off with the Government who sit in the middle chortling at you all and stoking the fires to justify ever increasing repression.
Something needs to change, and as neither side is going away maybe that change could come through more listening and less shouting?
Regards,
Observer
observing the observer
25.01.2010 17:19
There is no Sharia law in the UK. The 'Sharia Courts' act as mediation tribunals for willing participants. The christian sects run mediation tribunals, and there are also long established Jewish Beth Din. Why is one group being picked out?
Sharia courts have absolutely no influence over non-muslims - so how is a bunch of drunken louts taking to the streets to oppose them, in any way based on a real threat or acceptable? Demanding that terrorists get off our streets is just plain absurd.
The whole premise of the EDL is based on Islamophobic intolerance stoked by the media and state - they are in no way opposing anything but a racist strawman.
Sharia Strawman
Return To Stormfront, neo-Nazi EDL Trolls
25.01.2010 17:33
The video is on YouTube.
Piss off back to white supremacist website Stormfront, neo-Nazi EDL trolls (Kelway and co). After your useless demo, the EDL are now in a worse state than your beloved Portsmouth FC, whose unpopular owner Sulaiman Al Fahim coincidentally, is a Muslim and a foreigner, isn't he, which may be why you hate all Muslims in your sick little head, Kelway!
We don't troll Stormfront, so please stop trolling Indymedia telling us that the neo-Nazi EDL leaders have good intentions.
Everyone now knows the sick and sordid truth about the EDL.
All that is needed now is to ban the EDL under anti-terrorist leglislation.
Spamela
Strawman & Spamela
25.01.2010 18:38
Calm down, I was trying to have rational discussion with anyone who fancied participating (thanks to 'No-one') and am in no way connected to either the EDL, the fascist BNP or any odious white supremacists. It's amusing that you assume I am white but that's your conditioning I suppose.
Anyway, given your first hysterical contribution I think I'll leave that there.
Sharia Strawman,
Sharia courts are legally binding. The basis on which these courts operate is a clause in the Arbitration Act 1996 which makes binding the decision of an arbitration tribunal if both parties agree to submit their dispute to it. Fair enough, if you think the UK can and should operate parallel legal systems, I do not. What if hypothetically one or more of the parties participating in this process are not doing so of their own free will? The established regime of patriarchy in even settled immigrant families certainly leaves open the possibility of women being legally exploited and denied their rights as British citizens. I personally believe everyone is entitled to fair and equal treatment before the law and Sharia courts leave doubt that every citizen will receive that, which is surely unacceptable?
Finally the threat of Islamic extremism in this country is very real and the only reason the British public has not suffered much greater loss of life is through the superb work of the security services - mixed with a large stroke of luck. If you are not even prepared to face these basic facts then clearly dialouge of any kind with the EDL (who are much more strident about thes things than I) would be difficult.
It doesn't bother me either way, I was simply tryng to put across the persepctive of someone who has watched this situation develop over time without being a participant on either side.
However if alternative or 'off message' views are discouraged here then I'll happily toddle off.
Regards,
Observer
Observer makes ill-informed and racist comments
25.01.2010 20:17
So all immigrants can be suspected of being authoritarian and patriarchal to the extent that their womenfolk will be forced into Sharia courts? Observer - you are making racist and sexist assumptions. How can you lump immigrants into one group here? And why do you assume that women migrants are passive and exploited? And do you not think that patriarchal values affect judgements in British law as well? Do you know what the conviction rate is for rape?
"Finally the threat of Islamic extremism in this country is very real and the only reason the British public has not suffered much greater loss of life is through the superb work of the security services - mixed with a large stroke of luck."
These are outrageous assumptions to make. Aside from the few genuine terrorist outrages (which, incidentally, were not stopped by the security services) there have been a number of incidents were the security services have actually helped to fabricate terror plots (see the so-called ricin plot, the North West 10, Hicham Yezza). Why are they doing that? Well, you tell me. You certainly seem to know a lot about the security services.
You're either a willing idiot or a state troll.
Anti-racist
is not chanting BNP
25.01.2010 22:35
Jeff Marsh
Tactics against the EDL
26.01.2010 03:05
There is no such thing as a perfect tactic, but in the short term (ie - in the reality in which we are actually living) we're all making it up as we go along and the important thing is not to drop the ball just because no-one's come up with a magic bullet to finish off the EDL in one go. It's also important not to let debate about tactics turn into slanging matches which divide Anti-Fascist resistance to the growth of Fascism - liberals and militants MUST hang together because we all have useful contributions to bring to the table
Much as I sympathise with maiming Fascists, at present the path of physical confrontation is a formula for at best providing the far right with a free fund of their most precious PR assets - martyrs, at worst it's a formula for landing our lot in jail and/or hospital, as we simply don't have the physical numbers to do anything but lose badly in a straight fight with the EDL. Equally true is the fact that support for the EDL arose because of events over which we had no control - 9/11, 7/7 and then Islam4UK's stupid stunt in Luton. In such circumstances I think it's fatuous to even think in terms of "defeating" the EDL and BNP, what we can do however is to help contain them, not least by undermining their attempts to cross-over and attract support from mainstream society. The bottom line is they are probably better fighters than us, but we ARE more intelligent than them, and we have to play to OUR strengths and THEIR weaknesses in order to prevail.
UK Fightback
Support for the EDL arose because of 9/11, 7/7 and then Islam4UKs stunt in Luton
29.01.2010 13:33
Indeed... and all these things events look like they have the hands of western intel all over them, it all appears to be part of the Imperial strategy to use the "clash of civilizations" as a smoke screen for the Imperial resource wars...
Imperial Agendas
Easy in principle to beat EDL ... harder to undercut appeal
10.02.2010 03:55
The problem with the street confrontation tactic is that EDL outnumber the anti-fascists who turn out. Antifa are sadly not numerous enough to counter 1500, and the SWP have shrunk massively since the 1980s.
But, there are several million black, Asian and other minority people in Britain, who are directly threatened by EDL. The potential 'militant youth' component of such communities numbers in the hundreds of thousands. Even a tiny percentage of these mobilising for each of the EDL protests would outnumber them enormously.
Hence, all that would be needed is either,
1) to create up a travelling contingent of (say) 3000 Asian or black youths who follow the EDL around, or
2) to mobilise 3000 local youths from minority communities (with tens of thousands of minority youths) in each town EDL visits.
Or alternatively:
3) to get enough of the hooligan firms onto the antifa side that they outnumber the EDL side. In countries such as Italy and Spain, every city seems to have a Nazi club and an antifa club in terms of fan alignments.
Or even:
4) imitate the American civil rights movement of Martin Luther King, and have a few outnumbered nonviolent protesters put themselves in dangerous situations to win a decisive publicity battle against EDL.
On the other hand, there is a need to counter the popularity of fascist and right-wing discourse in white working-class communities, for a whole range of other reasons (the rise of the BNP, the rightward lurch of British politics, the ease with which civil liberties are attacked, the general state of political decomposition, etc). This *does not* mean there is a need to be more 'relevant' to what people *think* are the main issues - in other words, it does not mean pandering to prejudices and ideology. This sadly is what it is *taken* to mean by people like "Durruti".
Just because a lot of angry working-class people are conned into thinking the biggest problems today are women dressing how they please or swan-eating immigrants does not mean these bogus "issues" have to be given any tolerance by people who know better.
On the genesis of this problem. EDL is not being *caused* by events such as 7/7, the burqa controversy, or the Islam4UK protests, but by the *media and political reaction* to these events, which frames them in such a way as to promote a fascistic response. Go visit the Sun, Mail and Express websites if you can stomach it, and see how they constantly go *looking* for Muslim terrorists, Muslim extremists, claims of special privileges, mad mullahs, benefit cheating extremists, etc etc. And how similar this demonising of individuals is to the approach they take to working-class inner-city kids, refugees and asylum seekers, radical protesters and a thousand other folk devils. In terms of the effects of the discourse, it doesn't really *matter* how many terrorist attacks there are, or how extreme certain preachers are; they will find *something* to cause outrage - and if it wasn't Muslims it would be someone else. It's a vicious circle because the state constantly manages to jail innocent people, or people on thought-crime charges, because of the hostile climate (someone who downloads propaganda videos, deemed a 'wannabe suicide bomber' by the media for example). These convictions then get fed back into the news mill as new evidence to sustain the repressive climate.
This is what is wrong with the 'relevance to the working class' argument. EDL appear as relevant to the working class because the working (and middle) class are absorbing a whole load of bilge from cleverly constructed media which are designed to lure them in and which convince them that the atypical is typical.
The problem is not to conform more closely to bigoted tabloid and restricted-speech-code discourse oneself in order to out-Nazi the Nazis. The problem is how to get people out of the form of social composition in which they react emotionally through the channels provided by the worst sections of the corporate media. This requires *learning to think otherwise* and *critiquing common sense* on the part of the working-class.
It also requires the creation of *new social forms* which reduce emotional and discursive-social reliance on the media in question. It has been done regularly as an inclusive process with working-class communities in Latin America - Zapatistas, MST, CTU's, piqueteros and so on, and they don't end up coming out as slightly less extreme Nazis but as far more progressive.
Also, this is a *much bigger issue* of recomposing social movements - it is *not* an issue of what would be necessary to defeat a fringe group of 1500 assorted Nazis, quasi-Nazis and hooligan hangers-on.
nazikicker