Luton protest trial and Islam4UK ban: huge attacks on civil liberties
nazikicker | 13.01.2010 09:13 | Anti-racism | Terror War
Convictions for peaceful protests deemed 'offensive' to chauvinists, and plans to ban an organisation which is not accused of any crime, mark a further onslaught on basic liberties in Britain.
Beneath the tabloid hysteria, and with media whitewash causing many of people to give their attention to the politics of Islam4UK rather than the serious threats facing activists in Britain, the state is ramping up repression to new extremes, using its 'war' on political Islam as an ideology (even when nobody has been harmed directly) to drive wedges into basic liberties yet again.
COURT RULING BANS 'OFFENSIVE' PROTESTS
First off, five Muslim protesters have been convicted for peaceful and apparently legal protests against a chauvinistic military march in Luton.
This is the outcome of an ongoing attack on the right to protest following anti-war protests at a military parade.
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/oxford/2009/03/423945.html?c=on
The protesters had been very careful to obtain police permission, did not disobey police instructions on the day, and carefully avoided any slogans which could be deemed to condone terrorism. Their trial has been duly exposed by their defence lawyers as an abuse of process and a travesty of the claim that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are in defence of 'democracy' and 'freedom'.
http://www.asianimage.co.uk/uk/4839367.Free_speech__irony__in_parade_protest_trial/
They were convicted of harassment on the grounds that they were found offensive by chauvinists and bigots attending the chauvinistic parade. A few of these bigots, who look suspiciously like EDL, attacked the protesters in Luton. After the event, various disreputable newspapers ran stories condemning the protests and praising the EDL goons who attacked them.
Like the previous case at the Mohammed cartoon protests, in which the category of 'solicitation to murder' (which actually means hiring an assassin) was used to gain convictions for acts of political advocacy (incitement law could not have been used as there was no serious and demonstrable likelihood of resulting action), the law has been distorted around the certainty that certain groups must be wrong - even if their acts are entirely within the law as previously written and interpreted.
It seems that, as believers in an unpopular ideology, the protesters were taken to be guilty in advance - the charges simply had to be invented after the event. As a result, new categories of 'crimes' are created on the spot by judges and juries expanding interpretations of existing laws to allow criminalisation of entire categories of formerly legal action.
The convictions set a precedent which could make it illegal for ANY protester to say something deemed offensive to bigots, Sun readers, Nazis or the target of the protest. This is a big extension of the current abuse of harassment laws.
It will most likely now be taken as illegal:
* to call a politician or a foreign head of state a murderer or a warmonger on a protest,
* to call a fox hunter or a vivisector a torturer,
* to shout anything which could be deemed an "insult",
* to call people "Nazi scum",
* to berate arms dealers with having no morals.
These things have been banned, not by a new law, but by an abusive extension of an existing law (on harassment) which is already widely abused.
It seems that radical Islam has become a kind of 'black hole' around which discourse is distorted - so necessary is it taken to be that any action however harmless taken by radical Islamists is illegal, introducing a case against radical Islamists is allowed to corrupt rational discourse to the point where new prohibitions emerge retrospectively, on the spot, as laws are stretched to make legal actions a 'crime.
CRIMINALISING DISSENT
Meanwhile, the attempt to ban Islam4UK, the current group label used by radical Islamists allegedly connected to al-Muhajiroun, is apparently to be banned - because it has been too successful in getting media attention.
Under the draconian laws allowing proscription of 'terrorist' groups - extended in 2006 to those who 'glorify' terrorism - someone can be jailed for ten years simply for belonging to an organisation. Given the networked nature of many modern organisations, this could easily be used to jail people simply for who they know, who they associate with or what they believe.
The situation is in effect a new McCarthyism - an ideology, not a set of actions, is banned.
It must have been expected that the group would simply re-form. Anarchist groups faced with similar persecution do the same. So too have Basque separatist groups in Euskal Herria, Kurdish and democratic Muslim parties in Turkey, and parliamentary parties of former ruler Thaksin in Thailand. The current ruling party in Turkey (the AK Party), roughly akin to the Christian Democrats in other countries, has previously been banned several times by the military and judiciary seeking to retain control, only to be re-formed under new labels and repeat its electoral success.
The group in question allegedly has as many as 81 'front' organisations already formed, any of which could be activated following the ban.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/jul/22/terrorism.world
The result is an endless cat-and-mouse hunt in which the organisation can never be truly banned, but simply chased from one designation to another.
Security sources have also allegedly opposed the bans on the grounds that they make the group's activity harder to monitor.
So why has it been banned?
Again, to set a bad precedent - and to look 'tough' to the tabloids and the bigots with an election ahead.
On the latter point - of course the tabloids will find a new bogeyman. As long as there is a single Muslim in Britain, the tabloids will be able to find someone to portray as their archetypal 'mad Mullah'. They have already passed from Abu Hamza to Abu Izzadeen to this latest bogeyman, Anjem Choudhary. This will continue, moving from the more 'radical' to the less. The threat to all Muslims is massive. Many people are joining a Facebook group calling for Choudhary to be deported - despite his being a British citizen. Apparently, British Muslims don't count as truly British. Where will it end?
The Conservatives have declared that they wish to ban Hizb ut-Tahrir, a group which has some very nasty views but does not condone terrorism.
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2009/11/the-conservatives-may-need-to-rethink-their-policy-on-hizb-uttahrir.html
Press reports have targeted the Muslim Council of Britain for supporting the Palestinian struggle, even if British troops were sent to Palestine.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-shuns-muslim-council-over-link-with-hamas-1651323.html
Newspaper hysteria following the Detroit bombings has included calls for Islamic student societies to be banned unless they can 'guarantee' nobody in them will be 'radicalized'.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/yemen/6906669/Detroit-bomber-British-university-complicit-in-radicalisation.html
More crucial, however, is the precedent this sets.
It has now been established that the government can ban an organisation which does nothing more than shout slogans. It doesn't even have to prove that the organisation glorified terrorism. It simply has to have an overlapping membership or similar rhetoric to another group which is supposed to have glorified terrorism.
This could have a massive effect, giving the police new powers to persecute dissidents across the political spectrum.
Hence for example, they could ban ALF, ELF, or the Italian 'insurrectionist international' (which doesn't exist but is stated to exist in various court cases); then they could claim that dozens of local animal rights groups, Earth First!, Anarchist Black Cross, or whoever else they want is the same organisation and ban them as well.
It should also be noted that, if this banning of parties deemed to condone terrorism had been done in Northern Ireland, the Good Friday Agreement would have been impossible. There can never be peace if one side cannot express its views or protest peacefully. The state seems to have decided it wants to preclude the possibility of peace or dialogue in advance.
MUDDYING THE WATERS: THE CAMPAIGN AGAINST POLITICAL ISLAM
Many people, including some on the left and posters on Indymedia, are mudding the waters of the need to fight back against state repression by emphasising issues with the politics of Islam4UK.
The group has many authoritarian views incompatible with socialism, liberalism and anarchism. In principle, it would like to create a theocratic state in Britain, similar to those in Saudi Arabia and Iran. They doubtless have some quite nasty views (though also some quite laudable ones - against imperialism for example).
Crucially, however, it has no chance of succeeding in such goals. Moreover, it is pursuing them by entirely peaceful means. It is no different in this regard from dozens of small Christian groups which would similarly like to see some authoritarian social order established around religion, but which pursue their means by preaching, worshipping and converting.
In addition, the group is tiny - perhaps two dozen people showed up in Luton.
It is surreal to compare such a tiny group to the likes of the EDL and the BNP, which are hundreds or thousands-strong Nazi groups which spread their message through racist violence and terror.
It is even more surreal to assess the group's political rights by its goals, which it has no means to achieve. By the same standard, if it is OK to ban Islam4UK because of its repulsive ideology, it should also be OK to ban the Conservatives, Labour, various authoritarian-socialist groups, pro-Israel groups, etc. The whole point of free speech is that it applies to everyone.
An exception is sometimes made for Nazis because of their inherently hateful ideology and violent means. But small Muslim groups cannot be compared to Nazis - they have neither the numbers nor the violent methods.
In any case, racism and fascism are not simply abstract views but are connected to deep forces of colonialism and white supremacy in societies such as Britain. To put all forms of prejudice and authoritarianism on the same level with Nazis shows a complete failure to understand the impact of white privilege and white supremacy in the contemporary world.
Crucially, the group is not being banned because they have a vile ideology. It is hard to find an aspect of Islamic theocracy which is not echoed in the discourse of the right-wing sections of the press. They, too, call for corporal and capital punishment. They, too, oppose the gains of women's liberation and gay rights. They supported Moseley in the 30s. They constantly race-bait against Muslims and immigrants. They supported the jailing of Oscar Wilde. They oppose the idea of human rights. They ran to the defence of Nazi Geert Wilders when he was banned from Britain under laws they had supported. The only reason they spew their hateful filth against certain Muslim leaders is because of their skin colour and visible difference.
Islam4UK has actually had a very effective strategy of identifying with the unspeakable in the situation, speaking the 'truth' of the situation (in Lacanian terms) - that imperialist war is nothing to celebrate, that British soldiers are committing routine atrocities overseas, that the nationalist rituals of ordinary British life are a cover for something terrible which must be opposed - the things which nobody dares say, or at least to say in a disruptive enough way to interrupt the normal functioning of the performance of ideology - and it is this disruption (not their specific political views) which is the reason for the hatred directed against them. They are fully expecting persecution, and embracing it almost Gandhi-style, not at all with guns and bombs (whatever their rhetoric says).
It is not as if they are getting away with violence. If their members commit acts of terrorism, physically attack people, or incite racial hatred, this is already covered by dozens of other laws, some of them very extreme... without the banning of the group having any effect whatsoever. It is simply that they are exercising their basic democratic rights - and being criminalised for it.
Right now, arguing about the political views of Islam4UK is like standing around in Nazi Germany arguing about whether Zionists have horrible politics. The real issues are pervasive Islamophobia concealed under a front of 'anti-extremism' - and the destruction of what little remains of the right to dissent in Britain's nascent police state.
COURT RULING BANS 'OFFENSIVE' PROTESTS
First off, five Muslim protesters have been convicted for peaceful and apparently legal protests against a chauvinistic military march in Luton.
This is the outcome of an ongoing attack on the right to protest following anti-war protests at a military parade.
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/oxford/2009/03/423945.html?c=on
The protesters had been very careful to obtain police permission, did not disobey police instructions on the day, and carefully avoided any slogans which could be deemed to condone terrorism. Their trial has been duly exposed by their defence lawyers as an abuse of process and a travesty of the claim that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are in defence of 'democracy' and 'freedom'.
http://www.asianimage.co.uk/uk/4839367.Free_speech__irony__in_parade_protest_trial/
They were convicted of harassment on the grounds that they were found offensive by chauvinists and bigots attending the chauvinistic parade. A few of these bigots, who look suspiciously like EDL, attacked the protesters in Luton. After the event, various disreputable newspapers ran stories condemning the protests and praising the EDL goons who attacked them.
Like the previous case at the Mohammed cartoon protests, in which the category of 'solicitation to murder' (which actually means hiring an assassin) was used to gain convictions for acts of political advocacy (incitement law could not have been used as there was no serious and demonstrable likelihood of resulting action), the law has been distorted around the certainty that certain groups must be wrong - even if their acts are entirely within the law as previously written and interpreted.
It seems that, as believers in an unpopular ideology, the protesters were taken to be guilty in advance - the charges simply had to be invented after the event. As a result, new categories of 'crimes' are created on the spot by judges and juries expanding interpretations of existing laws to allow criminalisation of entire categories of formerly legal action.
The convictions set a precedent which could make it illegal for ANY protester to say something deemed offensive to bigots, Sun readers, Nazis or the target of the protest. This is a big extension of the current abuse of harassment laws.
It will most likely now be taken as illegal:
* to call a politician or a foreign head of state a murderer or a warmonger on a protest,
* to call a fox hunter or a vivisector a torturer,
* to shout anything which could be deemed an "insult",
* to call people "Nazi scum",
* to berate arms dealers with having no morals.
These things have been banned, not by a new law, but by an abusive extension of an existing law (on harassment) which is already widely abused.
It seems that radical Islam has become a kind of 'black hole' around which discourse is distorted - so necessary is it taken to be that any action however harmless taken by radical Islamists is illegal, introducing a case against radical Islamists is allowed to corrupt rational discourse to the point where new prohibitions emerge retrospectively, on the spot, as laws are stretched to make legal actions a 'crime.
CRIMINALISING DISSENT
Meanwhile, the attempt to ban Islam4UK, the current group label used by radical Islamists allegedly connected to al-Muhajiroun, is apparently to be banned - because it has been too successful in getting media attention.
Under the draconian laws allowing proscription of 'terrorist' groups - extended in 2006 to those who 'glorify' terrorism - someone can be jailed for ten years simply for belonging to an organisation. Given the networked nature of many modern organisations, this could easily be used to jail people simply for who they know, who they associate with or what they believe.
The situation is in effect a new McCarthyism - an ideology, not a set of actions, is banned.
It must have been expected that the group would simply re-form. Anarchist groups faced with similar persecution do the same. So too have Basque separatist groups in Euskal Herria, Kurdish and democratic Muslim parties in Turkey, and parliamentary parties of former ruler Thaksin in Thailand. The current ruling party in Turkey (the AK Party), roughly akin to the Christian Democrats in other countries, has previously been banned several times by the military and judiciary seeking to retain control, only to be re-formed under new labels and repeat its electoral success.
The group in question allegedly has as many as 81 'front' organisations already formed, any of which could be activated following the ban.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/jul/22/terrorism.world
The result is an endless cat-and-mouse hunt in which the organisation can never be truly banned, but simply chased from one designation to another.
Security sources have also allegedly opposed the bans on the grounds that they make the group's activity harder to monitor.
So why has it been banned?
Again, to set a bad precedent - and to look 'tough' to the tabloids and the bigots with an election ahead.
On the latter point - of course the tabloids will find a new bogeyman. As long as there is a single Muslim in Britain, the tabloids will be able to find someone to portray as their archetypal 'mad Mullah'. They have already passed from Abu Hamza to Abu Izzadeen to this latest bogeyman, Anjem Choudhary. This will continue, moving from the more 'radical' to the less. The threat to all Muslims is massive. Many people are joining a Facebook group calling for Choudhary to be deported - despite his being a British citizen. Apparently, British Muslims don't count as truly British. Where will it end?
The Conservatives have declared that they wish to ban Hizb ut-Tahrir, a group which has some very nasty views but does not condone terrorism.
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2009/11/the-conservatives-may-need-to-rethink-their-policy-on-hizb-uttahrir.html
Press reports have targeted the Muslim Council of Britain for supporting the Palestinian struggle, even if British troops were sent to Palestine.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-shuns-muslim-council-over-link-with-hamas-1651323.html
Newspaper hysteria following the Detroit bombings has included calls for Islamic student societies to be banned unless they can 'guarantee' nobody in them will be 'radicalized'.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/yemen/6906669/Detroit-bomber-British-university-complicit-in-radicalisation.html
More crucial, however, is the precedent this sets.
It has now been established that the government can ban an organisation which does nothing more than shout slogans. It doesn't even have to prove that the organisation glorified terrorism. It simply has to have an overlapping membership or similar rhetoric to another group which is supposed to have glorified terrorism.
This could have a massive effect, giving the police new powers to persecute dissidents across the political spectrum.
Hence for example, they could ban ALF, ELF, or the Italian 'insurrectionist international' (which doesn't exist but is stated to exist in various court cases); then they could claim that dozens of local animal rights groups, Earth First!, Anarchist Black Cross, or whoever else they want is the same organisation and ban them as well.
It should also be noted that, if this banning of parties deemed to condone terrorism had been done in Northern Ireland, the Good Friday Agreement would have been impossible. There can never be peace if one side cannot express its views or protest peacefully. The state seems to have decided it wants to preclude the possibility of peace or dialogue in advance.
MUDDYING THE WATERS: THE CAMPAIGN AGAINST POLITICAL ISLAM
Many people, including some on the left and posters on Indymedia, are mudding the waters of the need to fight back against state repression by emphasising issues with the politics of Islam4UK.
The group has many authoritarian views incompatible with socialism, liberalism and anarchism. In principle, it would like to create a theocratic state in Britain, similar to those in Saudi Arabia and Iran. They doubtless have some quite nasty views (though also some quite laudable ones - against imperialism for example).
Crucially, however, it has no chance of succeeding in such goals. Moreover, it is pursuing them by entirely peaceful means. It is no different in this regard from dozens of small Christian groups which would similarly like to see some authoritarian social order established around religion, but which pursue their means by preaching, worshipping and converting.
In addition, the group is tiny - perhaps two dozen people showed up in Luton.
It is surreal to compare such a tiny group to the likes of the EDL and the BNP, which are hundreds or thousands-strong Nazi groups which spread their message through racist violence and terror.
It is even more surreal to assess the group's political rights by its goals, which it has no means to achieve. By the same standard, if it is OK to ban Islam4UK because of its repulsive ideology, it should also be OK to ban the Conservatives, Labour, various authoritarian-socialist groups, pro-Israel groups, etc. The whole point of free speech is that it applies to everyone.
An exception is sometimes made for Nazis because of their inherently hateful ideology and violent means. But small Muslim groups cannot be compared to Nazis - they have neither the numbers nor the violent methods.
In any case, racism and fascism are not simply abstract views but are connected to deep forces of colonialism and white supremacy in societies such as Britain. To put all forms of prejudice and authoritarianism on the same level with Nazis shows a complete failure to understand the impact of white privilege and white supremacy in the contemporary world.
Crucially, the group is not being banned because they have a vile ideology. It is hard to find an aspect of Islamic theocracy which is not echoed in the discourse of the right-wing sections of the press. They, too, call for corporal and capital punishment. They, too, oppose the gains of women's liberation and gay rights. They supported Moseley in the 30s. They constantly race-bait against Muslims and immigrants. They supported the jailing of Oscar Wilde. They oppose the idea of human rights. They ran to the defence of Nazi Geert Wilders when he was banned from Britain under laws they had supported. The only reason they spew their hateful filth against certain Muslim leaders is because of their skin colour and visible difference.
Islam4UK has actually had a very effective strategy of identifying with the unspeakable in the situation, speaking the 'truth' of the situation (in Lacanian terms) - that imperialist war is nothing to celebrate, that British soldiers are committing routine atrocities overseas, that the nationalist rituals of ordinary British life are a cover for something terrible which must be opposed - the things which nobody dares say, or at least to say in a disruptive enough way to interrupt the normal functioning of the performance of ideology - and it is this disruption (not their specific political views) which is the reason for the hatred directed against them. They are fully expecting persecution, and embracing it almost Gandhi-style, not at all with guns and bombs (whatever their rhetoric says).
It is not as if they are getting away with violence. If their members commit acts of terrorism, physically attack people, or incite racial hatred, this is already covered by dozens of other laws, some of them very extreme... without the banning of the group having any effect whatsoever. It is simply that they are exercising their basic democratic rights - and being criminalised for it.
Right now, arguing about the political views of Islam4UK is like standing around in Nazi Germany arguing about whether Zionists have horrible politics. The real issues are pervasive Islamophobia concealed under a front of 'anti-extremism' - and the destruction of what little remains of the right to dissent in Britain's nascent police state.
nazikicker
Comments
Hide the following 31 comments
The banning of one but not the other
13.01.2010 10:03
If freedoms are to persist then those who preach against them - Islam4UK, BNP and EDL, NF and so forth - should all be considered on the same argument by the Home Secretary.
What exactly is the EDL doing for the Government that it is not being banned? Is becoming a more pointed question by the day. The truth is, Islam4UK was, is and will be a nasty little hotbed of fascism that will reemerge elsewhere. Just like the other extremists: remember where the BNP comes from?
Luther Blisset
well said
13.01.2010 10:09
x
HMUK Prison
13.01.2010 10:42
So that covers the UK armed forces with the continual stream of innocents murdered, towns destroyed like Fallujah in Iraq, being party to using weapons of mass destruction such as depleted uranium rounds & white phosphorous, or are they immune from the terrorist attacks then have committed, complicity in torture & illegal kidnappings (rendition), or is it only terrorism when they, not us do it?
Double standards to silence foreign policy critics before general election
CONTINUING OPPOSITION TO AFGHAN WAR IN LUTON
13.01.2010 11:29
in Luton near the Luton War Memorial next to the Luton Town Hall.
First vigil will be from 2pm Saturday 23rd January 2010.
We're a mixed bunch - members of the Green Party, peace activists, human rights activists,
Stop the War Coalition etc - everyone is welcome who wants an end to this war and all war! We don't support or sympathise with Al Qaeda (meaning Database) or Taliban - we support and want to mourn the innocent civilians getting killed or injured.
Peace with Justice
Peter
Luton Peace & Justice
Homepage: http://lutonpeaceandjustice.wordpress.com
Addition
13.01.2010 11:31
Questions raised over British government's Islam4UK ban
nazikicker
Misery on all fronts
13.01.2010 12:09
I don't agree with terrorism, but I don't decide which group is terroristic and which group isn't, do I? Nor do you and millions of others. The goverment chooses who. I am virtually sure I know the answer to your question, but cannot legally elaborate. The way things are now I would need a top-notch civil liberties lawyer to examine my text, to hopefully safeguard me from saying a wrong word and/or wrong phrase and/or wrong opinion or whatever, if you see what I mean. And, regarding any goverment in power in UK, I certainly have no faith in neither Labour nor Tories, and, even, perhaps not in the Lib Dems.
All in all, I am disgusted at the way the UK has gone, is going, and also at the terrible way world is going. It should be obvious to the most stupid fool that, if a Labour or Tory goverment is not wanted at next general election, it would probably be best to at least give the Lib Dems the bulk of the votes, do you not think? We should all do well to remember that the next political party in power will almost certainly be in for five long years, eh? Five nice long years, friend/s. A lovely proposition, eh? And a wrong voting decision could be tantamount to having to endure loads of more misery on all fronts. All this economic doom and gloom sure isn't dwindling, eh?
Francis H. Giles
great article
13.01.2010 12:10
Misuse of existing laws is a long and established tactic - with animal rights there have been many inventive misinterpretations of laws e.g. the anti-stalking and trade union picketing laws used against demonstrators.
The latest is charging people with blackmail or conspiracy to blackmail just for legally campaigning against a company, as with SHAC.
In the past a raid on a farm to liberate animals would have been a simple burglary charge but now they tack on things like blackmail so they can boost the sentences.
In effect, every pressure group is "blackmailing" their target by threatening demonstrations, letters, etc. unless they change their business. So selective use of laws can be used to stifle campaigns they find the most dangerous to the established order.
Here's a quote from Ayn Rand, who was a nasty right winger in many ways but I think the quote itself is apt:
"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws."
-- Ayn Rand, "Atlas Shrugged"
athiest
Anti government protests not allowed in the UK
13.01.2010 12:52
do we all still remember Brian Haw whom had anti terror legislation sculpted purely to remove him from parliament square causing a constant embarrassment to the UK government?
watch David Blunkett in video @ 13:56
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-3351275215846218544&ei=GL5NS5vLFqGM2ALChKm6Ag&q=taking+liberties#
anon
Mission creep
13.01.2010 14:11
The current regime seems determined to use whatever they have on the books to the utmost possible, and push at whatever limits still exist. We have archaic laws like 'conspiracy', 'public nuisance', 'contempt of court' being dragged out and misused; we have Thatcher and Major era nonsense such as the Public Order Act, aggravated trespass, and harassment being misused even further than in that era; and we have a whole raft of new stuff like SOCPA, the terrorism acts, Asbo's and the rest. The machinery of repression is very extensive now, with worse appearing all the time. There's new wedges being put in doors all the time. Keep an eye out for more offences being made 'strict liability' (no lack of intent defence) once the new sex-work law gets normalised. And watch out for it being made an offence to cause someone else to suspect you of disorderly behaviour (as in the Newark airport closure case).
notanoob
suckers
13.01.2010 14:14
They have not been banned for planning the protest. They have been banned for glorifying and celebrating acts of violence against our citizens. And quite rightly so. If you backtrack into their history a bit and see what they've been up to, its absolutely appalling. This ban has not come soon enough.
I think people are just confused by the timing, which isn't great. But thats labour for you.
Anjem Choudary is disparately trying to capitalise on this ban to gain publicity and sympathy - and you are falling for it hook, line and sinker!
sheon
sheon is a sucker
13.01.2010 15:14
But some of us care a bit more about freedom than you.
The government is disparately [sic] trying to capitalise on this proposed demonstration to erode freedom and civil liberties - and you are falling for it hook, line and sinker!
If we are banned glorification of acts of violence, what about all the articles, editorials, letters and comments you see in the right wing rags about how immigrants, minor criminals or protesters should be shot or flogged? Or all the war jingoism about how people in Iraq or Afghanistan are scum and should be blown up by cowards in planes?
If someone thinks destroying the WTC or bombing the London underground was a good thing they should be free to say so, whether we agree with them or not.
anon
The Party
13.01.2010 17:32
What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past, in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites.
The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just round the corner there
lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal.
We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?’
1984 George Orwell
underclassrising.net
Ban Classwar!
13.01.2010 20:18
Spectacle
Who muddies the waters?
14.01.2010 01:29
By contrast, the author disparages our criticism of an authoritarian group on very shallow grounds. We are taking a position of principle; and we are confronted, naturally, with the degree of influence of the organization under criticism. (This would mean the BNP was all fine when it was small.)
I would also point out that the author has a very strange understanding of what free speech implies. At one point, free speech applies to everyone (that's the 'whole point'); at another, the Nazis are excluded from it. Speech is not free if it is limited. And how else do you limit speech than with a state enforcing arbitrary rules ? At one point, preventing actual harm is the legitimate basis for coercion; at another, it is the degree of violence of an organization.
Yep, very muddy waters, but not ours.
littlehorn
e-mail: gues_matthieu@hotmail.com
Homepage: http://anoborderer.wordpress.com
@littlehorn
14.01.2010 08:47
I don't see anyone attacking UKIP members who hold very similar views. Perhaps its the physical attacks on people that makes the difference.
Continually singling out Islamic extremists in an Islamophobic climate is very useful to those who seek to fuel the Islamophobic climate - Christianity and Judiasm have their own extremists and tyrannical beliefs. The whole Islam4UK furore is created by the corporate media and state singling out a tiny unrepresentative group, and in the process Muslims who do not share the same beliefs are attacked.
The premise of the article is quite correct - the conviction of Muslim protestors for daring to call soldiers from an occupation army 'murderers', and the banning of Islam4UK (and yet not the BNP which has proven links to acts of terrorism) creates a precedent which will lead to an erosion of all our liberties.
We've seen losses of rights after the vilification of Animal Rights Activists, and if the Luton precedent isn't overturned, we'll see more activists being done under section 4.
Lord Justice Stain
armed forces day
14.01.2010 10:56
http://www.armedforcesday.org.uk/National.aspx
. Are there any plans to hold a demonstration against the armed forces on this day by any Leftist groups? do people think it is a good idea? The tone of Islam4UK angered people but we do need demonstrations against the armed forces and the militaristic and nationalistic society that the government is slowly creating.
x man
Please Censor the Neo-Nazi Trolls - They Shouldn't Be Using Indymedia!!!
14.01.2010 13:38
It's groups like these we are all laughing at, not the other way around, you braindead trolls.
So can all the EDL/NF and BNP fuckwits that are putting me off my lunch, bigging up Hitler worshippers, all kindly piss back off to stormfront.
Be fair! You don't get anarchist trolls on muthafuckin' Stormfront, so don't come on here, posting complete and absolute bullshit.
STORMFRONT IS CURRENTLY HOLDING A MASTERCLASS ON HOLOCAUST DENIAL.
GO JOIN IN!!!
Troll Destroya
Trevor KKKelway The Serial Troll
14.01.2010 14:57
KKKelway started off posting under his proper name, including on a Manchester Gay an Lesbian website before the EDL's Hitler saluting day out in Manchester to try to divide and conquer minority groups, and also tried to infiltrate animal rights forums, and then decided to call himself "Arthur" on Libcom.org, thinking he was indeed a reincarnation of King Arthur, but ended up being as feeble as Arthur Fowler from EastEnders all those years back.
Now Kelway is trolling full-time on Indymedia.
Get a life Kelway, you stupid lazy neo-Nazi twat. As the leader of a neo-nazi street army who allows its members to piss on English heritage, the EDL are just as much a joke as the National Front. Even your comrades in the British Nazi Party are laughing at you, lol
LOL
You are indeed a piss-poor excuse of a far right organisation.
Armitage Shanks!!!
troll police, camera, action
14.01.2010 16:17
I've met a lot of people like you in meetings, talking over the top of everyone and basically being rude, arrogant and obnoxious to ensure you get your way. Don't like what people say, so rather than offer honest critique, they just resort to childlike extremes of insults.
Seems your standard method of operation is as follows:
- Label the commenter as a troll
- Ostracise them completely by using strawman arugments becaused on accusing them of being at least 2 of the following:
a) a reader of stormfront
b) a paying member of the BNP
c) a nazi
d) a holocaust denier
e) in the pay of MI5
And all because people don't like islam4uk. Two questions:
Do you think that the majority of the population of the UK must be members of the bnp then?
Furthermore, i assume you think that the muslims who have criticised islam4uk are also trolls/bnp/edl members. Is that right?
farrow
Lincolnshire EDL Unit Supports Combat18
14.01.2010 18:29
Yes some of us are students, but no, we are not "soap dodgers" as the fascist trolls like to accuse us of being. Quit that bullshit, you Adolf Hitler lovers.
I have come across quite a few members of Stormfront and VNN who attend EDL demos, and even Sharon the mod of VNN is starting to applaud the facsist streetfighting tactics of the EDL, having originally been critical since the BNP pretended to distance themselves from the EDL for cosmetic reasons.
What the British public do not like, are bloody ignorant football hooligans travelling around the Midlands getting drunk and attacking people, while making Adolf Hitler salutes and racist chants. The EDL cannot be defended, and they are nothing short of ignorant, biggoted pondlife...
As Islam4UK was banned, so should the white supremacist (plus the odd Uncle Tom) EDL (and SDL). There needs to be one law for all, which means if Gordon Brown bans the religious hatemongers Islam4UK, he has to also ban the EDL, who march into city centres getting pissed, urinating everywhere, stgarting fights with anarchists, and worst of all, deliberately trying to provoke race riots.
Oh and while we talk about banning people, please can Indymedia UK Admin stop the neo-Nazi trolls who come on here with their pro-EDL and BNP filth.
Together we will keep Indymedia neo-Nazi troll free.
The EDL are made up of racist football hooligans and hardcore neo-Nazis who have been filmed making straight armed tributes to the dead German fuhrer.
Most damning of all, is the Lincolnshire Division of the EDL (the hardcore nazi LTE hooligan group), led by Lincoln Loyal, whose flag paraded at EDl events, pays tribute to Loyalist murderers, the BNP, the NF, and wait for it.......
COMBAT 18.
See for yourself...................
Lincoln Loyal will be bringing two dozen LTE thugs to Stoke for the upcoming demo.
EDL Sucks!
Fascist Trolls Resorting to Death Threats
14.01.2010 18:35
A FASCIST DEATH THREAT FROM AN EDL MEMBER.
LOVELY!!!! XXX
Louise Vegan
See You Neo-Nazis In Stoke!
14.01.2010 18:40
Opposing hierarchies, the state, and all extremists religious and racial.
True Anarchist.
(see you Nazi scum in Stoke, when your thuggish "army" leaves Wetherspoons in a shamefully drunken state)
True Anarchist
Wigan Mike
15.01.2010 00:15
(see www.lancasteruaf.blogspot.com for latest updates).
Wigan Mike and friends were plotting acts of terrorism intended to kill large numbers of people, and still the bozos at the EDL claim they "oppose terrorism", just as they keep claiming they are not racist.
If Wigan Mike is found guilty, the neo-Nazi EDL will have some serious egg on their faces, though if he was indeed a police informant, maybe Wigan Mike will get off if Special Branch puts in a good word for him.
Sh3ll33
Naming And Shaming Hardcore Nazis In The EDL
15.01.2010 01:26
If you can deny the Holocaust happened, like Grimsley and his Stoke BNP/EDL mates, telling lies comes easy.
When Grimsley isn't walking around Stoke being a racist ass, he's logging onto Stormfront which also goes to disprove the trolls on this thread which deny the EDL use Stormfront, although some of his most racist comments including vile antisemitism come from his YouTube channel.
It's about time the key knobheads of the EDL were named and shamed, with the Stoke Racefest coming up. It is essential that anybody and everybody turns up in Stoke to show their disapproval of the British far right. Whether anarchist, socialist or liberal, together we will defeat the twin neo-Nazi threat of the ballot box and the drunken boot and fist.
NO PASARAN!
, who recently stood for the BNP at a , is also a and an EDL activist.
Smash The EDL
Wigan Mike
15.01.2010 01:31
Where would the EDL be without Wigan Mike???
.
WHAT IT MEANS FOR US
15.01.2010 08:28
* Islam4UK are not being banned for being authoritarian
* Islam4UK have not glorified terrorism under that name
* Islam4UK is not a threat to anyone (and if they were, there are plenty of other laws against violence)
* Islam4UK are not engaged in routine regular violence against innocent people in the way BNP and EDL are
* What Islam4UK believe is not very important as they have no power and are not going to take power
* The creeping extension of repression can AND WILL be used against everyone else as well
The water-muddiers are on this thread simply spewing bile against Islam4UK without saying anything about the wider implications - will they still agree when these powers are being used to lock up anti-fascists for shouting "Nazi scum", to lock up moderate Muslim peace protesters for saying Blair has blood on his hands, or to ban entire swathes of activist groups for ostensibly being "the same as" a group accused of "terrorism" (real or imagined)?
Take the following scenario. A shop selling Nazi memorabilia gets firebombed (by organised anti-fascists, by a lone 'nut', as a state black-op - it matters little which). The state arrests some people who are members of a small anti-fascist group and gets them done for conspiracy SHAC style, even though it can't prove any of them were involved - because they had the address of the shop on their website. The group they formed is banned for glorifying terrorism.
The state then bans every autonomous anti-fascist group in Britain - AFA, Antifa, No Borders, Red Action etc - on the grounds that they are all 'fronts' or 'other names' for the group they have just banned. The proof for this is that they have similar politics and an overlapping membership - some of the members of the local group are or were members of these national groups (remembering how loose 'membership' in a loose network is - they simply need to have known or collaborated with the other groups at some point). Any new groups formed are instantly banned. Anyone involved in militant anti-fascism is charged with belonging to a terrorist organisation and jailed for 10 years.
Or, suppose the members of the original group were also involved in a dozen other local campaigns on an individual basis - as is very, very common among activists. ALL these campaigns are declared to be 'other names' for the original group on the grounds of the overlapping membership of the original activists. Any new campaigns set up on similar causes are banned as new names for the same organisation. Activism in this town is effectively banned as 'terrorist'.
This is what the ban and the court case mean for activists.
Tell me you aren't scared. Tell me you still want to worry more about a small ineffectual group's nasty political views.
BTW I do think there is some Islamophobia here. If it was a small Communist group which was just banned, there would be outcry. Even if it had called for attacks on British troops. Even if it wanted to set up gulags in the UK. If they had just banned the Jehovah's Witnesses there would be outcry - even if they think unbelievers are about to be burnt alive by God in an impending apocalypse. If it was a statist nationalist group supporting some political faction trying to take power, there would be outcry. If it was a Hindu, Sikh, Zoroastrian group - there would be outcry. Because it's a Salafi group (Muslim but not mainstream Muslim - like the Jehovah's Witnesses in Christianity) - oh well, that's OK then, they "don't count", they have some nasty views so they're the same as fascists (by this standard the Tories, BBC, Church of England and all the major world religions would all be fascists but let's just ignore that). We don't like them, so we can't stand up for their rights. But that means not standing up for OUR rights either. Don't you see the wedge in the door here?!
nazikicker
WIGAN MIKE
15.01.2010 09:44
also, just while im on the subject: i wonder if all you BNP/EDL/SS twats actually know 100% what your own ancestral history is?
For example, you call your self 'british' or 'english', whilst its long been understood that the english are not the indigenous peoples of this land, so we're all pretty much 'made up' of different 'tribes'/'races'/ancestral paths' and should not really dismiss one 'tribe', say jews, or irish or muslim over an other, as 'our own' history is awash with invasion, 'cross breeding', domination by other 'tribes', etc. No one is 'pure' english, pure 'british', as those dont actually exist in the real world. they exist in the media and the minds of men with beer bellies and EDL t-shirts, and thats it.
as for I4UK, I'll fight them the same as fascists the police and the BNP. they are all the same bigoted idiots as far as im concerned.
surnames proving non-'english' heritage: this is just a little something for all you EDL'ers to think about. if you're original family name is on the following list, then your NOT english:
revelyan, Trelawney, Treherne, Trevor, Polwhele, Pentreath, Pendennis
and also,
1. JONES
2. WILLIAMS
3. DAVIES
4. WILSON
5. EVANS
6. THOMAS
7. ROBERTS
8. HUGHES
9. EDWARDS
10. LEWIS
11. SCOTT
12. MORRIS
13. MORGAN
14. JAMES
15. PHILLIPS
16. PRICE
17. CAMPBELL
18. GRIFFITHS
19. KELLY
20. SIMPSON
21. STEWART
22. MURPHY
23. MURRAY
24. RICHARDS
25. ELLIS
26. ROBERTSON
27. GRAHAM
28. POWELL
29. OWEN
30. GIBSON
31. THOMSON
32. LLOYD
33. REID
34. GRANT
35. HENDERSON
36. ROSS
37. MCDONALD
38. HAMILTON
39. JOHNSTON
40. KENNEDY
41. REES
42. DAVIDSON
43. MACDONALD
44. WALLACE
45. OBRIEN
46. MORRISON
47. GORDON
48. FERGUSON
49. RYAN
50. FRASER
51. PARRY
52. BLACK
53. DUNCAN
54. KERR
55. PATERSON
56. ONEILL
57. GRIFFIN
58. DOUGLAS
59. PRITCHARD
60. ALLAN
61. CAMERON
62. BYRNE
63. MCCARTHY
64. BURKE
65. QUINN
66. DOYLE
67. OCONNOR
68. LYNCH
69. GALLAGHER
70. MCLEAN
71. SULLIVAN
72. SINCLAIR
73. CRAIG
74. CARROLL
75. MCKENZIE
76. DUFFY
77. PATTERSON
78. BRUCE
79. KAY
80. BOYLE
81. MACKENZIE
82. PUGH
83. HOWELL
84. BOWEN
85. JOHNSTONE
86. HUMPHREYS
87. FARRELL
88. MILNE
89. TURNBULL
90. MCKAY
91. BRENNAN
92. FLYNN
93. HENRY
94. BOYD
95. DICKSON
96. DONNELLY
97. MACKAY
98. MORAN
99. RITCHIE
100. LINDSAY
GET YA HISTORY CORRECT BEFORE YOU JUDGE OTHERS - SEE YOU IN STOKE, DICK EDS!!
Goebbels
Goebbels
15.01.2010 13:25
i think they mean someone of english heritage
fried in egg white
no english
15.01.2010 13:47
'england' was a feudal space, a tribal space, a moving fluid space of different borders for different reasons for different tribes and communities. england and britain do not exist in the sense you have been led to believe, or just believe blindly because you like the EDL's 'fight for us' attitude, which lots of white 'english' people 'suffer' from also.
some more common surnames that will mean non-english ancetral history, being that englad does not really exist in the manner in which you state. if it does, please provide serious evidence, cheers.
# Smith
# Jones
# Taylor
# Brown
# Williams
# Wilson
# Johnson
# Davies
# Robinson
# Wright
# Thompson
# Evans
# Walker
# White
# Roberts
# Green
# Hall
# Wood
# Jackson
# Clarke
PS. these are the most common surnames in 'england', by the way..........
Goebbels
nitpicking
15.01.2010 14:51
Most people have a broad understanding of what English means. Its just the broad, everyday term "English" that we used in our everyday lives
You seem to be splitting hairs, but I don't think anyone is really that interested in drilling down to the level you are talking about.
egg fried white
ban this, ban that
15.01.2010 19:54
This isn't 1933. Anarchists needn't side with the mainstream bourgeousie against fascists or anyone else. Let racists and islamic freaks have their say and their marches. Let them condemn themselves from their own mouths, and actions, and by supporting the good parts of their politics, enlighten some of the cretins who support them by showing them common ground with a more hopeful politics.....
banhammer