Did you return the next night? I hope so... if not, maybe this could be made into a valuable regular thing, no?

@narchist rather than doing a Gordon Brown or David Cameron why don't you address the issue rather than ignoring it outright and bumbling on about nonsense?

A valid point was made that it's not just anarchists and opponents of the state that are held in prisons. Rapists, murderers, people guilty of assaulting fellow citizens, muggers, burglars, etc are all held in them. What is the anarchist solution to this very real and relevant issue?

It's the typical boring same old 1970's anarchist rhetoric that was tired then and is still tired now, in your frankly unrealistic models of utopian societies you always neglect to concede that crime will always exist. Would you allow those guilty of molesting children to simply roam the streets and find more victims? Would you have let the racist, sexist, and homophobic soho nail bomber walk free because such incidents do not fit in with your models of perfect utopian societies?

Until you propose real world answers to real world issues, rather than crying about people raising genuine concerns anarchism will forever remain a redundant ideology lambasted and humoured by the majority of the population.

Good stuff. Yeah, ignore the little-minded right-wingers on here.
It must mean a hell a lot to those incarcerated in their cells to hear some support. Next step: Building strong communities able to resist their fellow women and men being arrested, and eventually gathering strength enough to overpower those keeping the human beings trapped in prison, and freeing current prisoners.
I agree with the prisoners, as excellent as this solidarity work is, it should not be limited to an annual New Years Eve demo, organising has got to be constant, we cannot let the pressure off ever.

To all those who see anarchist visions of prison-less societies as utopian dreams,

I'll give you all the benefit of the doubt and assume you are asking out of genuine concern and interest rather than just attacking anarchism as a political philosophy. So may I refer you to An Anarchist FAQ? It is a great online resource that provides answers to precisely the kind of issues with anarchism you raise. It presents a variety of opinions, not all I agree with, but as a vehicle to explain those questions that trouble anarchists and non-anarchists alike about anarchism it is a seriously useful tool.
 http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html
Enjoy and learn

99% of prisoners are working class - fact.

Most in Lewis prison (Cat B/C) are in for petty crimes like drug dealing (trying to earn a living), or robberies (trying to earn a living) - all products of this fucked up society in which we live, based on capital and oppression of the working class.

So if, at the end of the day, some poor lad brought up on scraps on a council estate, born with nothing, dies with nothing, goes out and robs a wide screen tv from some loaded toff before selling it and has a bit of dosh for once in a while, who gives a shit.

So fuck off with your liberal middle class wank, too much of your type in all political movements. You obviously don't have a clue about life for us working classes. So don't start with that swappy shit that we're all working class - bollocks, there's a line between us lot and them middle & upper class scummers.

...so burgle rich bastards and get back what they stole from us!

what a great thing to do - very inspiring i'd love to do the same soon.

ELijah smith & friends shouldnt, he was legally stopping deliberate genocide against toddlers by Isreali trooops directly supplied by EDO& has been held without trial for a year!
what are authorities afraid of?
FFS whats genocide compared to your shitty stereo? get educated,
As for last comment, you obviously have been hanging around in the wrong circles, you go to any motorhead gig etc,etc,etc & many other mass popular bands etc & you meet people who espouse anarchism, right across the class spectrum,
though
As Crass the most popular band ever not to sign up said "middle class working class its all a load of Shit!!!!!"

Anarchists in the Spanish civil war kept fascist prisoners, personally I would keep them fascists & paedos prisoners giving them productive work.
Many anarchists, would cut parts of their bodies off, just because you mainly meet more liberal anarchists on the web or in your own circles, doesnt mean its a consensus. I personally dont think this is way forward anymore & that educational detention is.
Paedos & rapists should be chemically or surgically neutered, like dogs this takes alot of them & then tagged for life.
Anarchism to me & many is about a cooperative society organising without leaders & a elite, its abour direct democracy from a local to global level. Its about getting rid of the warlike,divisive,uncivilised, childish state which is the stage of evolution we are at, maintained by the state. Its not about having no government which some interpreted it as,
its about true self governing

Kropotkin was quoted by one of the gang in the recent series in the very popular Biker Series"sons of anarchy" along with anarchist Emma Goldman in the first
Kropotkin wrote a book "mutual aid is a factor of evolution", he was a anarcho biologist, it was a a major uncredited addition to Darwinism& has been validated with recent info on Tit for tat evolution & cooperative game theory shown to be better ways of living in almost any situation.

Many anarchists just get on with their lives,keep heads down & dont protest, usually much crime doesnt happen to them criminals know if caught they will get arrested if lucky. Personally after dealing with a lot of theiving bastards & a rapits I do know believe in educational detention, punishing bastards ourselves can be hard work in which the police & liberals often try to just punish us, things can escalate too much.

ELijah smith & friends shouldnt, he was legally stopping deliberate genocide against toddlers by Isreali trooops directly supplied by EDO& has been held without trial for a year!
what are authorities afraid of?
FFS whats genocide compared to your shitty stereo? get educated,
As for last comment, you obviously have been hanging around in the wrong circles, you go to any motorhead gig etc,etc,etc & many other mass popular bands etc & you meet people who espouse anarchism, right across the class spectrum,
though
As Crass the most popular band ever not to sign up said "middle class working class its all a load of Shit!!!!!"

Anarchists in the Spanish civil war kept fascist prisoners, personally I would keep them fascists & paedos prisoners giving them productive work.
Many anarchists, would cut parts of their bodies off, just because you mainly meet more liberal anarchists on the web or in your own circles, doesnt mean its a consensus. I personally dont think this is way forward anymore & that educational detention is.
Paedos & rapists should be chemically or surgically neutered, like dogs this takes alot of them & then tagged for life.
Anarchism to me & many is about a cooperative society organising without leaders & a elite, its abour direct democracy from a local to global level. Its about getting rid of the warlike,divisive,uncivilised, childish state which is the stage of evolution we are at, maintained by the state. Its not about having no government which some interpreted it as,
its about true self governing

Kropotkin was quoted by one of the gang in the recent series in the very popular Biker Series"sons of anarchy" along with anarchist Emma Goldman in the first
Kropotkin wrote a book "mutual aid is a factor of evolution", he was a anarcho biologist, it was a a major uncredited addition to Darwinism& has been validated with recent info on Tit for tat evolution & cooperative game theory shown to be better ways of living in almost any situation.

Many anarchists just get on with their lives,keep heads down & dont protest, usually much crime doesnt happen to them criminals know if caught they will get arrested if lucky. Personally after dealing with a lot of theiving bastards & a rapits I do know believe in educational detention, punishing bastards ourselves can be hard work in which the police & liberals often try to just punish us, things can escalate too much.

the assumption by some people that people in prison/or criminal=bad, people not convicted=good. There are some realy nasty people about who think nothing of killing maiming and torturing, sometimes the police and criminal justice system lock these scum up, sometimes police and judges are these scum. There are many who will never face justice of any description think of the directors of Union Carbide who poisoned the people of Bhophal and STILL deny them recompense, or the filth at Shell who were involved with the slaughter of the Oogoni people and Ken Saro Wiwa. In fact they are actually rewarded by our society, torturing,killing and being negligent are all part of a good business strategy.
Some poor drug mule from a poor country threatened or coerced into bringing drugs into the country faces years away from her children who may starve whilst she rots in a UK prison. How many are inside simply because they are mentally ill? As for rapists, murderers etc I do agree that there are dangerous people who maybe should be locked away BUT we all know that our courts are a lottery. I think that most of us have been really angry at some stage, what if someone hits out I hit back, fracture their skull with one blow and they die? I am I "scum" or just unfortuneate? Someone who delights in killing, maiming and causing misery needs to be dealt with, I do not know how but first of all I think we have to accept that these people will always be around no matter how perfect society becomes. In fact the barons and aristocracy were nothing more than the gangs of their day who used violence and intimidation to enslave others. Take away the current system and nasty violent scum will rise to the top and take over if allowed to. Gangs it would apear "rule" certain areas already, fine if those gangs are open to consensus, protect the weak, and enhance the community but if it is a matter of the gangs terrorising, robbing and setting themselves up as new robber barons they need smashing, interesting how the police have not done this, but the gangs do not threaten real power though.
Secondly we need to prove that someone has done something. At present we have courts, corrupt, nonsensical, inconsistant but what do we replace them with?
Thirdly if someone is a major threat to society a facist, a scumbag director responsible for killing for profit, a nonce, someone who thinks nothing of battering old ladies what do we do with them? It is not sufficient to say that in an anarchist utopia people will not feel the need to do evil acts, of course some people will, I personally think theese people will be much reduced but they will exist. Banishment from the community has been suggested which is fine unless they gang up with others banished, form a group and just take over. Cutting bits off them? That simply is not nice and any society which accepts maiming and torture under ANY circumstances will be one in which terror will control people. Incarceration may be the only way forward for some people, I really don't know but at present there are thousands who should not be in prison and thousands who are much more of a threat to people, animals and planet who will never see a prison cell or even a small fine. Many like Elijah should be hailed as national heroes, many more should probably get adequate medical care rather than being punished for being ill.

Lets let all the paedophiles out, lets release the heroin dealers who plague the poor and ruin their lives through exploitation, addiction, and violence, lets release all those guilty of robbery since according to one poster robbers and burglars only target the rich... bollocks do they! I've heard countless times of people on council estates being broken into and robbed of what little they own by fellow citizens of the same class (class solidarity? don't make me laugh).

Typical class generalising bollocks, the poor always = good no matter what their actions are.

This notion that people only commit crime because they're down trodden is nonsense, I highly suspect most people recognise this but refuse to admit it lest they be criticised by their fellow activists for not following the accepted doctrine and prevailing dogma. It's a shame that the left even to this day refuses to look outside the imaginary boxes that they confine themselves within and look at the individual cases rather than generalising that all poor people commit crime because they are exploited.

"Almost like listening to fat people who say they can't lose weight
Losing weight is possible the easier goal to achieve in terms of health and fitness
If you can't lose 1/2 stone in 6-8 weeks then basically you just arn't putting any effort in."

Interesting comparison, equally full of individualist bullshit. The reason there's loads of unhealthily overweight people in our society is just because there's lots of lazy people then? And there are lots of people in prison because there's lots of bad people in society? Do you not think it might be just a little more complicated than that? If you can't see that there might be explanations for both of these phenomena based in the way capitalist society functions rather than just the individual 'free' choices of individuals then I really can't be bothered explaining them right now...sigh.

I would also point out that from the original post the demo sounds like it was also there in solidarity with the EDO decomissioner inside. Anyone got a problem with that too then?

My main response is that it is spurious to take one part of the philosophy (the abolition of prisons) and say that anarchists want that to happen. The release of all prisoners would not equate to the creation of anarchy! I agree that if the present economic, political conditions were maintained, but all prisoners were set free, then much chaos would ensue. That is not the anarchist philosophy. Anarchists are concerned with the total upheaval of the economic conditions that are the major cause for crime in every society.
Every Society Has All The Criminals It Deserves
The profound nature of that statement (not mine obviously, Emma Goldman quotes some criminologists saying it in her wonderful essay, 'Prisons: A Social crime And A Failure') goes beyond just saying that 'People commit crime because they're poor and so have to to support themselves'. Instead it takes a look at societies and says, why do some societies have x amount of 'crime', and other societies y amount? Anarchists look to create a society in which what is considered 'crime' would be minimal. We also see the prison system as part of the problem (look at reoffending rates for validation of this argument), and instead anarchists have proposed dealing with 'crime' at a community level, with rehabilitative action taken by communities actiong with consensus, and a focus on only stepping in when an individual seriously affects people other than her/himself.
Look forward to responses from the right-wing and liberal crowds...

P.S. As has already been stated, the protest was predominately in solidarity with Elijah Smith, the EDO Decomissioner.

it remains, it does now and always will do, that prison is wrong, and should be abolished...ONLY a 'proper' anarchist community can deal with 'crime' and 'punishment' effectively without resorting to inhumane action such as imprisonment. Its a short term fix for sadist authoritarians, not humans.
we're not fucking slaves anymore!
all shackles must be removed.
If that means the shackles of fucked up people, those that the system has more or less fucked up on its own, then that means we need solutions to rectify mistakes and also commit to nurturing change in our communities.
however, i dont want an anarchist state for britain, as i dont want to share anarchy with nearly all of those on this island, so how to operate an anarchist-UK state is not a question for me. what i do know is in an anarchist community, 'crime' can be 'punished' without having to resort to further 'crime'.

You seem to have a magic bullet for curing crime?
Care to let us in one the secret?
Whats success rate are you getting?

I've often wondered why anarchism attracts the very best, most intelligent and thoughtful and the very worst, kneejerk "bash-the-rich" thugs. This thread seems to highlight that.

>> resorting to inhumane action such as imprisonment. Its a short term fix for sadist authoritarians, not humans.

Prisons are actually a sign of a civilised society.

Imagine if Zombies overrun the country and humanity was fighting for its existance. All resources and personal would be put into the war effort: fighting, manufacturing, logistics, food etc.

There would be thieves who would steal their neighbours food and firewood. The idea of prisons would be ludicous - we simply wouldn't have the resources to build and manage prisons - they would be a waste of precious resources and offer little in terms of investment.

We could expel these thieves and criminals out of the community, but then they might band together and become a threat so that wouldn't be a practical solution. The only solution would be corporal punishment and public shaming.

Prisoners are a luxury that we can afford to have. And the criminals are lucky things are that way because I can tell you things could be a damn site worse for them

Well, omellete, perhaps a brief history of prison first, then a little look at how anarchism can effectively deal with crime.

Lets not go back to far, lets go to the Romans.

The Romans loved locking people away for 'crime'. ah, actually, we better sort 'crime' out first.
right, 'crime' is when a person,or institution or group, 'engages in an action or situation whereby the property of a person or group, or the physical body of someone, is interfered with by someone/something else without desire or consent, leaving hurt, pain, misery, anger and resentment and loss in its path'. Therefore, 'crime' is neither good or bad, it just is, according to the above definition.

would that be fair to say 'crime' fits this explanation, for arguments sake?
And also for arguments sake, 'punishment' defined as when: a person or a group response to a 'crime' is aimed at reducing the probability of the crime happening again or to defend the community from ill health or violence.

Right, lets carry on.

The Romans, who loved punishment, designed some of the earliest prisons. These cells would often be built in to the homes of roman 'citizens', with most homes having a 'cell' for prisoners. Roman prisoners could be enslaved by their 'victims', often carrying out their sentence in their victims home, which was to live in the 'cell' of the victim until the 'crime' had been dealt with and the 'criminal' had spent enough time reflecting on their 'wrong' and serving their punishment without trouble. They often became the 'victims' slave for the duration.

So basically, in Roman times, you could be sent to live in the cell of the person who's car stereo you had nicked. You could also be forced to pay a fee for your 'crime' or you cold be banished, or, of course, fed to the lions,stabbed or poisoned.

So prisons, the idea of locking humans away for 'crime', is 'ancient'. It has served no beneficial service to humanity, although as a short term solution, it has grown in popularity so much that every state in the known universe has prisons for punishing 'crime'.

I know that was brief, but lets move on.
what we learned, prisons have been around ages and have been messing peoples lives up ever since.

Now, anarchism.

The very nature of an anarchist community would mean that lots of 'crime' becomes 'meaningless' as anarchists tend not to want to destroy/harm/take that which does not belong to them or does not effect their health or safety. Ie. you'd be hard pressed to find a 'proper' anarchist willing to commit 'crime' against his or her fellow anarchists.

that is the first point, as it rapidly reduces the amount of 'crimes' that an anarchist could commit.
For example, nearly all anarchists live according to the principle of 'dont attack unless you're defending' and by living in this manner, they immediately don't have to deal with nearly all violent 'crime'.
So if you hit an anarchist, in a small anarchist commune, say, with a thousand people living on it, he or she will likely hit you back and defend themselves. There is no crime being done in defence of the body.

As for theft, anarchists often live by the principle of not oppressing or infringing on some one's 'right' to be left the fuck alone and have their 'shit' not fucked with, stolen or damaged. If that does happen, then the anarchist doing the 'crime' will be swiftly confronted. They will have a choice, and that is not considering what the 'victim' wants to do, whether to leave the community or stay and deal with the fall out of their actions. If they stay, they submit to the consensus of the community on what should happen to them. So if i hit someone, then the community decides I should leave, then I leave. If the community decides I should shovel shit for a week, then I shovel shit. But what the community of anarchists will not do, 9 times out of ten, is commit another crime to punish me. If I cant deal with my 'punishment' then I can leave. I can also repay my debt if I have stolen something, or work until it has been paid for. The essential idea to 'crime' 'management' is that you need crime in the first place to manage.Well, it is my opinion that 'crime' would be almost none-existent in a small to medium sized community of anarchists, to begin with, so the question becomes a case of, well, what do we do when a 'crime' happens?
How do we 'police' it?

So we come to the big questions now, the meaty stuff.

What do we do with a violent type, someone who doesn't want to go quickly and quietly, or someone that actively does crime to get money or to hurt people. Well, more often than not, the 'criminal' would not be following anarchist principles, so there would not really be these people around, but for arguments sake, lets say that they are a violent type and they dont want to leave the community and they are asserting their right to live there, even though they stole my stereo and slapped my face.
What to do?
If we bare in mind the 'dont punish crime, by creating crime', then the only thing left is to boot the person out of the community, banish them and enforce that banishment physically if needs be, because the action then becomes in defense of the community, a principle that anarchists live by.

The people may decide in a consensus building moment that they want to get rid of the person for good, bump them off for the crime of rape or murder. That, again, is an issue for the community, not a state or a judge or someone not even involved in the community, like external police.
The community may well call in the 'outside' police, and then they will be submitting to 'external' law, the law of the land and then whatever happens to them is out of the anarchists hands. Knowing anarchist the way I do, I doubt many would want to hand someone over to the pigs to be dealt with in this manner. Although for rape and murder, it is understandable, if regretable, that anarchists would do this.
But let us imagine the dreadful crime of rape HAS been committed against a woman by a man. What do we do then?
Hand him over? Or kill him? Rape him?
Again, it is for the community to decide and 'police'.

Remember that the principle of not doing a crime to punish a crime does not have to be law, it is a generally accepted 'principle' and can be fluid and change as the community moves and progresses.
Baring that in mind,it is safe to postulate that a rapist or a murderer would likely be killed or banished from an anarchist community, not withstanding the fact that they wouldn't just be handed over to the 'outside police' by people to stop them from being lynched.The important thing to remember is that each community will have its own manner with which it deals with 'crime'. When it comes to rape and other 'serious' crimes, the community may decide to lynch the person or kill them or banish them or turn them over to 'real police', the police of our enemies. That is for the community to decide. However, baring in mind the principle of not committing a crime to punish one, more criminals will likely become apparent if they kill or injure the 'criminal'. Again, this is for those in the community to 'sort out', particularly when punishment is designed to ..."protect and defend from ill health or violence" as well as "reduce the probability" of it happening again. Using this principle of punishment, it is possible to kill a rapist in defence of the community, for example.

Ultimately, what I have tried to touch on in a very quick, and admittedly not very academic way, is that;

- we should attempt to NOT punish crime with crime, with the definition of crime being: an action or situation whereby the 'property' of a person or group/collective, or the physical body of someone, is interfered with by someone/something else without desire or consent, leaving hurt, pain, misery, anger and resentment or loss in its path' and punishment being: aimed at reducing the probability of the crime happening again or to defend the community from ill health or violence.

- 'crime' would be nearly none existent in a 'proper' anarchist community.

- 'crime' can be 'punished' in a way the community consensus decides, which in turn could potentially lead to more 'crime', this would be something for the community to deal with.

- 'crime' should be dealt with by the direct community it effects, not an external 'force' or 'law'.

- 'serious' crimes can be dealt with by the community or dealt with by external forces. Those that choose to punish a rapist, say, by hurting them, will on the one hand punish but on the other create another crime...which in turn could lead to them being punished, etc. It is for the community/victims, working together, to decide.

- its a complex problem, and only real discussion, and attempts at finding avenues to go down that will lead to success, will help us out when it comes to the question of 'crime and punishment' in an anarchist community.

NOTE TO ALL TROLLS: please dont comment immediately with reactionary ideas and comments. please for the sake of the future of all our communities, can you offer some ideas and opinions that wont just shoot me down, and may lead to more ideas and discussions on this subject. All I have tried to do is offer answers to someones questions. Im not saying my way is the right way, its JUST A WAY out of the many hundreds of ideas that are out there.

Discussing this seriously is needed, not pissing about with reactionary comments and trolling.

ALL TROLL COMMENTS WILL BE IGNORED.

PS. the main point is that we should be discussing this topic, not just trolling it to death.