Camden : Alpaca Llamas being abused and frightened on Camden High Street
Camden People | 24.12.2009 17:10 | Animal Liberation | South Coast | World
A man has been bringing Alpaca Llamas on to Camden High Street and making money out of tourists posing for photos with the frightened animals. Local dogs who have never seen a llama before were barking at the frightened animals causing upset to the llamas and the dogs. The llamas are being transported in a trailer not meant for animals which is towed by a Vauxhall Astra for no reason except cash...
Many people were remarking how creul they found this. The man was wearing a t -shirt with a link to a website that either doesn't exist or is down :
http://alpacaworld.wibbly.com
Every time someone took a pic he dmanded cash & encouraged people to crowd and cuddle the distressed animals. Yesterday he brought a white llama and stayed for several hours according to a worker in Camden. Today he brought a second animal, a red brown llama.
He claimed that he had bought the animals in Peru.
The man is white, tuuby around 30 years old. He is transporting the llamas on the back of a shaky looking trailer towed by Vauxhall Astra : KMO2KFX
Locals called the RSPCA as they were scared that the animals might try to escape into the road or that dogs might be terrified etc.
If anyone sees this man please take a photo of the animals and the trailer and send them to London Animal Rights, Animal Liberation Front, Camden Gazette and Camden New Journal or your local newspaper if you spot them anywhere else.
http://alpacaworld.wibbly.com
Every time someone took a pic he dmanded cash & encouraged people to crowd and cuddle the distressed animals. Yesterday he brought a white llama and stayed for several hours according to a worker in Camden. Today he brought a second animal, a red brown llama.
He claimed that he had bought the animals in Peru.
The man is white, tuuby around 30 years old. He is transporting the llamas on the back of a shaky looking trailer towed by Vauxhall Astra : KMO2KFX
Locals called the RSPCA as they were scared that the animals might try to escape into the road or that dogs might be terrified etc.
If anyone sees this man please take a photo of the animals and the trailer and send them to London Animal Rights, Animal Liberation Front, Camden Gazette and Camden New Journal or your local newspaper if you spot them anywhere else.
Camden People
Comments
Hide the following 30 comments
The real facts ?
25.12.2009 03:24
. third - donations to www.alpacaworld.weebly.com are made voluntary no one twist's any one's arm's. fourth - alpaca's are domestic animals. If they get stressed they make a deafening screeching sound & that has never never happend with our alpaca's. they hum alot which they do often in the company of other alpaca's or myself.I would like to thank all that have supported www.alpacaworld.weebly.com And will continue to offer our Free Animal Encounter Primary School Visit's. Many Thanks www.alpacaworld.weebly.com
zak
e-mail: alpacaworld@hotmail.co.uk
Homepage: http://www.alpacaworld.weebly.com
Camden High Street is not the place for these poor creatures
25.12.2009 20:12
There is also the fact that you had no leaflets about what you were doing, you said that this is "because leaflets cost money".
Each and every time anyone took a photo of you, you aggressively asked for a "donation".
A Vauxhall Astra is not a suitable vehicle for towing animals and the trailer you used is one usually used for towing generators and tools etc, it is not an animal trailor.
When animals are subdued [or even drugged], or abused etc they will put up with cruel treatment, anyone who has been to a circus or infiltrated one will know this.
Many passersby were disgusted and said that they found what you were doing cruel. When local dogs were barking you made no attempt to move at all.
As for school visits, Camden High Street is not a school. This was not a school visit and schools are not open on Christmas Eve so you were there to scam the public. Your animals had no access to food or water on Camden High Street.
Animals should never be used for entertainment or as a way to make money. Unscrupulous people are capable of using animals to set up "charities" to make money and we belive that you are possibly one of these. Whatever it is that you are doing, I'll say it again, Camden High Street is no place for these animals.
anon
ALF address
25.12.2009 20:24
BCM 1160
London
WC1N3XX
anon
Alpacas are known to chase and attack dogs
25.12.2009 20:32
What will he do if a fight breaks out between a dog walking past and one of the alpacas?
Lee
Bullshit..!
26.12.2009 10:38
Mr.Alpaca
What are u people saying?????????
26.12.2009 17:49
susan
@ Susan
26.12.2009 19:00
Lynn Sawyer
ALF
26.12.2009 19:15
it includes dogs and cats and fish and rabbits and all animals that humans use and often abuse, with millions of animals being killed each year for human benefit.
lets not forget the cost of animal enslavement. millions dead every year because of us, our way of life. its despicable.
freedom to all animals. (that includes riot police dogs, donkeys on beaches, and gold fish)
fran
@ Susan
26.12.2009 20:04
London Zoo gets funded through peoples ignorance and lack of compassion. They see animals as objects, but ease their conscience by spouting bullshit about "conservation". They "conserve" so future generations can degrade amazing animals for their own entertainment. Wow those Orangutans sure are lucky living in a confined space. So who is the conservation for? I agree with you on one thing there is a big picture that needs to be looked at. And that is precisely why conservation is a scam. Many animals have become extinct, or at risk of, because of the impact of man. So unless humans change their ways then conservation is a complete waste of time.....unless your motivation is to make money from it. Which of course is what zoos are about.
"...horses in riots or police dogs..." Wow what a wonderful insight into your mind.
I came accross a message the other day "It is better to be hated for what you are than loved for something you are not." So I'll stick with the compassionatre minority thanks, rather than sell my soul.
Sparky The Clown
@ May
26.12.2009 20:18
Animals need and deserve our respect, not our love.
Sparky The Clown
@ sparky the clown
26.12.2009 23:07
Margret
When stressed alapaca's may sit down..
27.12.2009 02:15
Why don't you get a real job instead of getting these poor animals to make your money for you. Lazy git, get a job and stop living off of these animals.
Alpac
@reality check
27.12.2009 08:33
get a real grip, mate, and stop commenting obvious reactionary bullcrap all the time. did you get bored of xmas tele? so you had to come on indymedia and see what revolutionaries are doing and discussing? is your life so boring? why dont all you none-activist/concerned residents piss off to the evening post website if you're just going to troll every article?.....for fucks sake, its getting really boring reading your crap.........PISS OFF.
there are genuine struggles out there, struggles for solutions, so either be part of them or part of the problems. its as fucking simple as that.
and for the record, zoo's are prison camps for animals. and pets are slaves. sorry if that upsets all the 'pet lovers' out there, but pets are slaves. even rescued ones, although rescuing is better than leaving to live painful life or dying cruelly, admittedly, yet its still slavery for the animal, as it is not truly free.
flippin heck, these days indymedia has become full of daft trolls who need everything explaining,even animal lib, for crying out loud!
its like being in a really nice squat that has become over run by aggressive nobs and no on ewants to say anything as we're too nice. well, im not nice, so trolls fuck off.
fran
I Fail to understand
27.12.2009 11:50
26.12.2009 19:00
What are the really important issues? Do you really think that it is up to you to tell other people what they should be concerned about? You may not think that this is important but maybe one day you will be in a position where you are paraded and bullied for the pleasure of others, presumably everyone should ignore your suffering and only concentrate on the "important", stuff.
Lynn Sawyer
Dear Lynn,
This entire thread is telling Zac what to do. This entire thread is telling people what they should and should not be concerned about. I do think that it is important that this does not happen. You may not care to think of it, but Zac is an animal just like you and just like me. The entire thread is parading and bullying him for the political satisfaction of "Animal Rights Activists". Presumably everybody should ignore him because this is "important stuff". Zac, it would seem, should be made to suffer because you suppose that the Alpacas suffered. You have the word of Anon that they did, but is that sufficient to instruct the world to punish Zac. If it is, then, the BNP are justified in their crusade against Islam on the basis that there are a few Islamic extremists out there; the Government are, by the same logic, justified in their crusades against anybody whose cause is tainted by the extreme.
You have adopted a self righteous and self justifying position that anybody can use to persecute any other animal regardless of justice. Male lions should be wiped out because the males regulalry eat the young of other males when they take over a pride; rats should be wiped out because they carried bubonic plague - the insane list could go on because the logic justifies the silliest of things.
People who live in glass houses and all that: so can anybdoy explain why Zac should be the subject of such vile and threatening language?
Yours,
A Scientist
A Scientist
boolocks
27.12.2009 15:04
if you look on the website it is also obvious that this creep lives in enfield, southbury ward, near bush hill park "on a special ranch... along with wallabies, ostriches and geese", and no it's not a crime to say this - you posted the info on your own website in the public domain along with your mobile number 07957117366
alfie
usual loopy animal rights thread
27.12.2009 23:49
sid
finding the llama farmer
28.12.2009 09:45
alfie
Homepage: http://www.animalliberationfront.com/
@ A scientist
28.12.2009 14:12
Fran I am sure you are lovely. I like you anyway
Lynn Sawyer
Cheek out our latest alpacas
29.12.2009 13:21
steve
Homepage: http://www.alpacasofwessex.co.uk
Animal encounters
29.12.2009 13:31
dawn
Homepage: http://www.dawnsanimalencounters.co.uk
The Alpaca Man
29.12.2009 15:27
Claims that he loves the alpacas are clearly nonsense as he has been trying to sell them for £1200 on London Classified since April. He has also placed ads trying to buy wallabies.
I wonder if this chap has any connections with Gordon Elliott of Forty Hill who keeps a ramshackle menagerie of exotic animals at Tingeys Top Lane, Crews Hill. Even if he doesn't, he should be easy to find as there cannot be many people keeping alpacas, wallabies and ostriches in Enfield and those ostriches will be licensed under the Dangerous Wild Animals Act so the council will have records.
So Mr. Alpaca Man, how about some straight answers?
NP
@A Scientist
30.12.2009 11:01
What you are failing to understand is that animal rights philosophy seeks freedom for animals from human interference. So it's irrelevant whether "Zak" beats his alpacas or feeds them cordon bleu meals. He is still imprisoning them and treating them as commodities, when they should be living in the wilds of South America.
You may personally disagree with this philosophy, and there is no absolute right or wrong here - it is essentially an arbitrary choice, as is all morality. But myself and other animal rights activists believe it, so it is therefore logical that we campaign against what Zak is doing.
The fact the animals sometimes kill other animals isn't relevant - humans are capable of higher levels of logical reasoning and can avoid causing suffering, whereas other animals can't.
Another Scientist
Pictures of the day
30.12.2009 17:47
Gordon
I continue to fail to understand
30.12.2009 20:08
I paraphrased what was said by Lynne Sawyer and others. Unfortunately, threads that are critical of "animal rights" tend to become very heavily censored. While I can understand that Indymedia is not free expression with no editorial guidelines, the result can often be - as in this thread - that references get lost or hidden. What I said, should you read it and all the prior - undeleted - posts might actually make me seem a tiny bit less unreasonable. Calling myself "A Scientist" is never going to get anybody to suppose I am reasonable. I might point out that this "anti-scientific" attitude has a lot in common with racism in the way it marginalises scientific opinions - but that is for another time and place.
Life lives where it finds itself. Blood group studies show that that animals migrate - and migration has colonised the whole planet with life. Living in the "wilds" of anywhere is no more a natural habitat for life than living in the colon of a human. Your gut bacteria use you as a commodity. Your skin bacteria use you as a food source. There is no "ought" to where life is. The argument is nothing to do with life. The point made was that here is someone being targeted for victimisation simply because of his relationship to animals.
It might be consistent for you to take an ethical precept and follow it through to its grim conclusion. This was the entirely logical stance taken by Race Scientists - both in Germany and Elsewhere - when they saw no moral contradiction in murdering Jews (as a "lower race") or Roma (as a "criminal race") or Americans in Virginia sterilising unmarried mothers ("being a moral contaminant") and so on and so forth. The issue is not about other non-human animals. The issue is about human animals. Humans are animals that are capable of logical reasoning and can avoid suffering. have been shown to have reasoning abilities (I refuse to mention that this is by experiments such as photographing pongoids in the wild using a tool or watching birds on bird tables - that kind of science is not gruesome enough). The point is all about the suffering that is being whipped up around one person in a completely unnewsworthy contribution to the newswire.
Since Rights are a construction of liberal human society consequent on the existence of private property animals can not possess them. So it is relevant how "Zac" treats them: because, like the other animals (the human animals) they are treated as property. What this entire thread has proposed is that the Human animal property called "Zak" should be treated in a way that the Alpaca animal property is exempted. That is the language of rights. That is the proposal being made.
It was remarked - I believe it might be deleted - that the whole thread is not news but just a way to organise stalking. I would go further and say the thread is about degrading animals further. You cannot pick and choose which animals are to be given rights. It is either all animals or you reexamine the notion of rights.
I have no doubt that, because the kind of people that contribute to the more hystericaly animal rights comments are unreasonable and zealous, that reasonable comments will always be agitated to be removed or hidden. This goes to the heart of the comment I made: it really does not matter if I agree or disagree unless I simply accept that any shout of "abuse! abuse!" is a true shout, my voice will not be heard. This is the central problem that Animal Rights Activists will need to address in the future: how they cease being totalitarian or, if they choose to be totalitarian, how they convince others that the totality they propose is an absolute and genuine one? Lynne asked if I would enjoy being paraded and bullied for the pleasure of others. My point is, that is what Animal Rights has been reduced to: a parade of victims to be bullied. My immediate thought is that this comment will be deleted, hidden or otherwise removed from those you say are capable of "higher levels of logical reasoning and can avoid causing suffering, whereas other animals can't."
Ever seen a mountain gorilla mourn a cot death?
Yours
A Scientist.
A Scientist
@A Scientist
31.12.2009 00:45
I'm not sure why you think that. Science and morality are totally independent of one another. Science is the quest for hard truth, morality is our personal opinions on how to live our lives. I am perfectly happy to be pro-science and anti-animal abuse. Obviously I oppose torturing humans or animals for the purpose of science, but that doesn't make me "anti-science".
"It might be consistent for you to take an ethical precept and follow it through to its grim conclusion. This was the entirely logical stance taken by Race Scientists..."
I think I can quote Godwin here and win the argument! Very obvious how you paradoxically try to equate wanting to stop animal suffering with wanting to cause human suffering. What is wrong with taking an ethical precept and following it to its "grim conclusion"? Do you take your ethical precepts and then abandon them halfway because you can't be arsed with consistency?
"This is the central problem that Animal Rights Activists will need to address in the future: how they cease being totalitarian or, if they choose to be totalitarian, how they convince others that the totality they propose is an absolute and genuine one?"
If anything, animal rights is the opposite of totalitarian, it is about freedom for all animals. Would you say people who are against child abuse are "totalitarian" because they want everyone to stop abusing children? Would campaigning against a child abuser be "stalking"? No, if you take part in abusive behaviour like the Victorian concept of parading animals around for people to poke and gawp at, you should expect people to campaign against you and try to stop you.
"what Animal Rights has been reduced to: a parade of victims to be bullied."
This is a case of you portraying the abuser as a victim. The victims are animals who are imprisoned, tortured, killed in their millions every day just for human whims. People who abuse animals are the bullies and abusers, they aren't the real victims. If animal abusers feel victimised and bullied, then good, hopefully it will make them think about what they are doing to others.
Another Scientist
Continued Failure to understand
31.12.2009 05:49
31.12.2009 00:45
"Calling myself 'A Scientist' is never going to get anybody to suppose I am reasonable. I might point out that this 'anti-scientific' attitude has a lot in common with racism in the way it marginalises scientific opinions - but that is for another time and place."
I'm not sure why you think that. Science and morality are totally independent of one another. Science is the quest for hard truth, morality is our personal opinions on how to live our lives. I am perfectly happy to be pro-science and anti-animal abuse. Obviously I oppose torturing humans or animals for the purpose of science, but that doesn't make me "anti-science".
========================================================
Where did I say I favoured torturing animals? I pointed out that humans are animals. This is, in fact, a consistent approach. If you want to end animal cruelty or abuse then you must also end animal cruelty and abuse in human animals. This thread consistenly promotes the abuse of one particular animal. Science is not only a quest for hard truth as any scientist sitting in front of an ethics committee might comment. If morality is only "opinions" then someone could hold the opinion that animals are food and therefore cease to regard meat eating as wrong. You seem to miss the point intentionally.
It is not obvious that you oppose torturing humans or animals for the purpose of science. It seems obvious that you are indifferent to human suffering - but that would seem to be a peculiarity of your moral system.
I on the other hand have no moral system. It reeks of hierarchy and commands obedience.
========================================================
"It might be consistent for you to take an ethical precept and follow it through to its grim conclusion. This was the entirely logical stance taken by Race Scientists..."
I think I can quote Godwin here and win the argument! Very obvious how you paradoxically try to equate wanting to stop animal suffering with wanting to cause human suffering. What is wrong with taking an ethical precept and following it to its "grim conclusion"? Do you take your ethical precepts and then abandon them halfway because you can't be arsed with consistency?
========================================================
"Not this time. I know Mike Godwin. Mike Godwin is a friend of mine. You're no Mike Godwin." Thinking you can Quote Mike Godwin and doing so are two entirely different things. I equate animal suffering with animal suffering. I make no distinction between different animals. Humans are animals.
In the case of this thread there is an invocation to make the life of the Alpaca man miserable. That is giving up the commitement to non-abuse half way. I mentioned race scientists - people such as Spencer, Huxley, Galton and the nineteenth century slave traders. They justified their actions on a hierarchy. That is exactly what this thread does: "Alpaca good, Alpaca man bad."
I do not equate a desire to stop animal suffering with wanting to cause human suffering. I do equate an indifference to human suffering to inconsistency in the principles of not harming.
========================================================
"This is the central problem that Animal Rights Activists will need to address in the future: how they cease being totalitarian or, if they choose to be totalitarian, how they convince others that the totality they propose is an absolute and genuine one?"
If anything, animal rights is the opposite of totalitarian, it is about freedom for all animals. Would you say people who are against child abuse are "totalitarian" because they want everyone to stop abusing children? Would campaigning against a child abuser be "stalking"? No, if you take part in abusive behaviour like the Victorian concept of parading animals around for people to poke and gawp at, you should expect people to campaign against you and try to stop you.
========================================================
You miss the notion of totality and the obvious corollary that totalitarians presuppose a totality. If you take the non-abuse of animals as a precept then you commit to all animals. Not just the animals with the pretty faces. All animals. Not just the Alpaca but the Alpaca Man too. Animal Rights simply elevates animals from a state of nature into the same messed up system of property and power relations (out of which rights arise) that human animals participate in.
Attempting to equate child abuse to animal abuse is a good start. But it misses the point again. You are seeking to parade scientists and capitalists with animals around for the righteous "animal rights" campaigners to gawp at. How is that unabusive? If you are going to convince anybody of the totality of "rights" then you have to do so much better than that. You are obliged to live up to the ethics you are foisting onto others.
========================================================
"what Animal Rights has been reduced to: a parade of victims to be bullied."
This is a case of you portraying the abuser as a victim. The victims are animals who are imprisoned, tortured, killed in their millions every day just for human whims. People who abuse animals are the bullies and abusers, they aren't the real victims. If animal abusers feel victimised and bullied, then good, hopefully it will make them think about what they are doing to others.
========================================================
No. This is a case of me pointing at what Animal Rights activists have done to their cause. They have reduced it to a parade of victims to be bullied. "Good-Animals" to be bullied by "Bad-Animals" on the one side and "Bad-Animals" to be bullied by "Good-Animals" on the other. It is the reduction of all discourse to the abuse-abuser relation. In short, it is the same failed ideological claptrap of mainstream politics. The same pretence that "rights" will solve everything.
Rights are no more than the power that grows out of private property. If animals are to have rights then they are to possess private property. Either that or you come up with a radically new theory of rights that does not require the holding of private property.
If "animal abusers" are selected for abuse, victimisation and bullying by arbitrary, anonymous people on the internet where is the much vaunted moral argument? It fails because it detatches punishment from justice. It is the same totality that separates the world into "Good-Animal" and "Bad-Animal" but with the added, sinister, twist that it is arbitrary, without appeal and simply for the gratification of an elite.
========================================================
Another Scientist
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Scientist
Nearly forgot.
04.01.2010 15:15
NP
We are taking moral relativism to absurdities here
05.01.2010 01:20
The difference is that humans have a rational mind to understand they are exploiting animals. They are not "innocent", as the alpacas are. The whole point of animal rights is to stand up for abused animals and intervene to try to stop the people who abuse them.
What do you suggest we do? Sit around meditating and praying people will stop abusing animals? Sure it is important to educate people but I think taking practical direct action to stop animal abuse in the here and now definitely has its place.
Should the Suffragettes just have sat around writing letters to the Times to get more equal rights for women? I don't think so, they burnt stuff down and smashed stuff up and directly attacked patriarchy, and I think it was a good thing that they did so.
At the end of the day it sounds like we just disagree over tactics. So how about you do it your way and I'll do it mine and we accept that we go about things in different ways?
Another Scientist
A Scientist is Mr Vile aka MI5
11.01.2010 20:10
you know it and we know it.....
not A Scientist
Well
22.01.2010 11:30
Lets fight some proper battles rather than this silly one
Zak, much respect for the clear love nad commitment you have shown to these animals.
To those threatening to take action, grow up, there are far more important fish to fry
Emma
Emma
e-mail: emma.wiles@yahoo.co.uk