Leeds anti-EDL demo shows urgent need for Antifascist Defence League
Workers Power | 02.11.2009 11:54 | Anti-racism
On Saturday 31 October the fascist English Defence League held another racist rally against Muslims with hundreds of EDL supporters causing havoc in the gay district of Leeds. They did so despite over a 1,000 anti-fascists holding a rally nearby – a clear majority of whom wanted to march against the EDL and stop their rally. So, what went wrong?
The antifascist counter-demonstration on Saturday 31 October began with feeder marches from the Harehills and Hyde Park areas of the city.
The Hyde Park march in particular was strong in numbers and determination as 350 college and university students along with local youth chanted loud antiracist slogans on their way into town.
But as with the previous anti-EDL demo in Manchester, which took place on 10 October, community leaders had organised a massive campaign to discourage youth from joining the anti-fascist demonstration.
A facebook group was set up called “DO NOT GO TO THE EDL DEMO TOMORROW – nothing but blood will be shed!”
Some Asian youth on the demonstration told Workers Power that the mosques had even gone so far as to organise a trip to Alton Towers theme park to keep young people away.
“Our community is under attack”, one young protester said, “and our leaders are telling us not to defend ourselves”.
Unite Against Fascism (UAF) first tried to lobby for the police to ban the Leeds EDL march, with the list of signatories including Socialist Workers Party (SWP) member Sally Kincaid.
In the past, this tactic has seen the police prohibit antiracist marches whenever the fascists have been banned. In the run up there had been a lot of argument in the local anti-fascist movement over the letter. Many comrades, including some from the SWP, correctly identifying the problems inherent in such a tactic, because it fosters illusions in the idea the state can stop the rise of the fascist menace when in truth it is down to us to build a mass antiracist and antifascist movement.
On the day protesters were in high spirits. This was despite repressing policing as the Hyde Park march entered the city centre. Pushing and shoving took place as police attempted to forcefully channel protesters away from the EDL and into a pen with a Unite Against Fascism rally.
The police crushed several antifascists in the process and confiscated flags and placards. They were clearly going to defend the EDL march and rally at all costs. This is not surprising for socialists and anti-fascists with any experience of such protests – the police will invariably deal out the most repression to the anti-fascist radicals while defending the fascists.
But crucially on the Leeds demonstration, hundreds of people who had joined the march wanted to defend themselves and saw the need to break the police lines if we were to march on the EDL.
The force of numbers was there; the militancy and determination to fight was there; so what was missing – why did the EDL rally unchallenged? In two words: appalling leadership.
Enemy of striking bin workers speaks on UAF platform
The Hyde Park feeder march received warm cheers and applause from those at the rally as it arrived, but the rest of the day was to be marked by a lack of action.
Principally to blame for this were the UAF stewards and in particular SWP member and leading UAF organiser, Weyman Bennett.
The rally became increasingly frustrating as speaker after speaker spoke on the microphone when lots of protesters knew that just round the block, the EDL were demonstrating unopposed – the frustration became unbearable when news that the EDL were moving to break out of their police cordon reached the UAF rally.
The proverbial “straw that broke the camels’ back”, was when a Lib Dem councillor was invited to speak. The Lib/Con run city council is in a battle to smash the pay and conditions of city refuse workers who have been on strike for two months.
REVOLUTION and Workers Power members shouted, “support striking workers!” with many others joining in. Quite incredibly, SWP member and UAF steward Hanif Leylabi retorted angrily, “You don’t have to be in favour of strikes to be against fascism!”
In one line Leylabi had summed up the bankruptcy of the UAF strategy. Instead of developing a militant, class struggle movement that can link the fight against the far right to the battles to stop the working class pay for the crisis, UAF and Leylabi are determined to ensure the anti-fascists are seen as the defenders of the status quo: defending the same political mainstream that is attacking our jobs, our pay and conditions.
The EDL and BNP are growing because many people quite mistakenly see them as a radical alternative to these mainstream parties. What message does it put across to have this councillor who is involved in a bitter struggle against a section of workers? Any of these workers who had sympathy for the BNP would see this as the perfect confirmation of their views. While work mates who had been challenging them would find it march harder.
Once again, we saw how UAF’s idea of unity is not one of working-class solidarity against racism and nationalism, but of populist unity: one struck between workers and the very same bosses that attack them day in, day out.
Militant anti-fascist challenge
Younger SWP members were becoming openly more ashamed and embarrassed of the UAF leadership as the day went on. Soon after chants of “We want to march!” and inaction by Bennett & Co, the pen was broken and several hundred protesters, including many SWP and REVOLUTION members charged towards the EDL rally.
Numbers were not quite sufficient to get there as police formed lines and led baton charges, but the challenge to the EDL was made visible, and the determination was there for all to see.
As protesters, outnumbered, went back to the city art gallery pen, Bennett was heckled when he welcomed the march. The marchers shouted at him, “Where were you?!”
There was more frustration as speeches went on, and even after the Harehills feeder march arrived at the art gallery, the momentum was lost. After more chanting to march, and heckling of rally organisers’ failure to lead action eventually led to Bennett asking for a show of hands on who wanted to demonstrate.
The overwhelming majority did and formed at the edge of the pen. But police refused protesters’ exit and then the most shocking thing of all happened.
UAF stewards worked with the police to push them back. Some Asian youth wearing yellow UAF jackets threw them off in disgust when they saw this take place.
UAF organisers planned to march later on with police permission, presumably after the EDL had left the city but it was clear to most people at this point that the opportunity had been missed as a result of appalling leadership. News came shortly after that groups of EDL thugs had broken off from their rally and were threatening Halloween partygoers in the Leeds gay district.
This disastrous result gave antifascists plenty of “food for thought” after the demo as discussions took place about the day’s events.
Lots of activists agreed that the Leeds EDL demonstration has shown concretely and decisively: that we need to form an Antifascist Defence League that is capable of taking on and defeating the EDL menace.
As for the EDL they've managed a repeat of Manchester with hundreds marching in the city centre.. They are a violent fascist organisation with the perspective to become a mass movement. But we can stop them if we make a 180 degree turn away from the bankrupt UAF strategy.
The Hyde Park march in particular was strong in numbers and determination as 350 college and university students along with local youth chanted loud antiracist slogans on their way into town.
But as with the previous anti-EDL demo in Manchester, which took place on 10 October, community leaders had organised a massive campaign to discourage youth from joining the anti-fascist demonstration.
A facebook group was set up called “DO NOT GO TO THE EDL DEMO TOMORROW – nothing but blood will be shed!”
Some Asian youth on the demonstration told Workers Power that the mosques had even gone so far as to organise a trip to Alton Towers theme park to keep young people away.
“Our community is under attack”, one young protester said, “and our leaders are telling us not to defend ourselves”.
Unite Against Fascism (UAF) first tried to lobby for the police to ban the Leeds EDL march, with the list of signatories including Socialist Workers Party (SWP) member Sally Kincaid.
In the past, this tactic has seen the police prohibit antiracist marches whenever the fascists have been banned. In the run up there had been a lot of argument in the local anti-fascist movement over the letter. Many comrades, including some from the SWP, correctly identifying the problems inherent in such a tactic, because it fosters illusions in the idea the state can stop the rise of the fascist menace when in truth it is down to us to build a mass antiracist and antifascist movement.
On the day protesters were in high spirits. This was despite repressing policing as the Hyde Park march entered the city centre. Pushing and shoving took place as police attempted to forcefully channel protesters away from the EDL and into a pen with a Unite Against Fascism rally.
The police crushed several antifascists in the process and confiscated flags and placards. They were clearly going to defend the EDL march and rally at all costs. This is not surprising for socialists and anti-fascists with any experience of such protests – the police will invariably deal out the most repression to the anti-fascist radicals while defending the fascists.
But crucially on the Leeds demonstration, hundreds of people who had joined the march wanted to defend themselves and saw the need to break the police lines if we were to march on the EDL.
The force of numbers was there; the militancy and determination to fight was there; so what was missing – why did the EDL rally unchallenged? In two words: appalling leadership.
Enemy of striking bin workers speaks on UAF platform
The Hyde Park feeder march received warm cheers and applause from those at the rally as it arrived, but the rest of the day was to be marked by a lack of action.
Principally to blame for this were the UAF stewards and in particular SWP member and leading UAF organiser, Weyman Bennett.
The rally became increasingly frustrating as speaker after speaker spoke on the microphone when lots of protesters knew that just round the block, the EDL were demonstrating unopposed – the frustration became unbearable when news that the EDL were moving to break out of their police cordon reached the UAF rally.
The proverbial “straw that broke the camels’ back”, was when a Lib Dem councillor was invited to speak. The Lib/Con run city council is in a battle to smash the pay and conditions of city refuse workers who have been on strike for two months.
REVOLUTION and Workers Power members shouted, “support striking workers!” with many others joining in. Quite incredibly, SWP member and UAF steward Hanif Leylabi retorted angrily, “You don’t have to be in favour of strikes to be against fascism!”
In one line Leylabi had summed up the bankruptcy of the UAF strategy. Instead of developing a militant, class struggle movement that can link the fight against the far right to the battles to stop the working class pay for the crisis, UAF and Leylabi are determined to ensure the anti-fascists are seen as the defenders of the status quo: defending the same political mainstream that is attacking our jobs, our pay and conditions.
The EDL and BNP are growing because many people quite mistakenly see them as a radical alternative to these mainstream parties. What message does it put across to have this councillor who is involved in a bitter struggle against a section of workers? Any of these workers who had sympathy for the BNP would see this as the perfect confirmation of their views. While work mates who had been challenging them would find it march harder.
Once again, we saw how UAF’s idea of unity is not one of working-class solidarity against racism and nationalism, but of populist unity: one struck between workers and the very same bosses that attack them day in, day out.
Militant anti-fascist challenge
Younger SWP members were becoming openly more ashamed and embarrassed of the UAF leadership as the day went on. Soon after chants of “We want to march!” and inaction by Bennett & Co, the pen was broken and several hundred protesters, including many SWP and REVOLUTION members charged towards the EDL rally.
Numbers were not quite sufficient to get there as police formed lines and led baton charges, but the challenge to the EDL was made visible, and the determination was there for all to see.
As protesters, outnumbered, went back to the city art gallery pen, Bennett was heckled when he welcomed the march. The marchers shouted at him, “Where were you?!”
There was more frustration as speeches went on, and even after the Harehills feeder march arrived at the art gallery, the momentum was lost. After more chanting to march, and heckling of rally organisers’ failure to lead action eventually led to Bennett asking for a show of hands on who wanted to demonstrate.
The overwhelming majority did and formed at the edge of the pen. But police refused protesters’ exit and then the most shocking thing of all happened.
UAF stewards worked with the police to push them back. Some Asian youth wearing yellow UAF jackets threw them off in disgust when they saw this take place.
UAF organisers planned to march later on with police permission, presumably after the EDL had left the city but it was clear to most people at this point that the opportunity had been missed as a result of appalling leadership. News came shortly after that groups of EDL thugs had broken off from their rally and were threatening Halloween partygoers in the Leeds gay district.
This disastrous result gave antifascists plenty of “food for thought” after the demo as discussions took place about the day’s events.
Lots of activists agreed that the Leeds EDL demonstration has shown concretely and decisively: that we need to form an Antifascist Defence League that is capable of taking on and defeating the EDL menace.
As for the EDL they've managed a repeat of Manchester with hundreds marching in the city centre.. They are a violent fascist organisation with the perspective to become a mass movement. But we can stop them if we make a 180 degree turn away from the bankrupt UAF strategy.
Workers Power
e-mail:
workerspower@btopenworld.com
Homepage:
http://www.workerspower.com
Comments
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its no shock
02.11.2009 12:41
ballz
Don't these trots have their own website?
02.11.2009 12:46
In case you havent noticed there already is a militant antifascist group in leeds the 635 Group who have been taking effective action against the fascists for years while you muppets have been following the uaf around whining because they're rubbish.
antifa in the area
So where were they?
02.11.2009 13:52
not Workers Power but the article was interesting
interesting article
02.11.2009 13:59
I want to ask is where are all the anarchist groups, national federations in this debate - where are their initiatives. EDL are growing, are we going to leave it to UAF/SWP or Workers Power/Revo to it?
Anarchist Antifascist
Some of the real lessons to be learnt from the demo
02.11.2009 14:00
Yet while the militancy and determination of those on the protest to challenge the fascist EDL should be celebrated, the truth is the force of numbers was not there to seriously challenge them - it was good we outnumbered them but we would have needed another few thousand people before we had the real strength to seriously confront them. To pretend that a few hundred of us could have stopped the EDL on Saturday is pure 'revolutionary' posturing - if even the whole of the UAF demonstration on Saturday had succeeded in breaking through police lines and marching on the EDL in force (highly unlikely given the overwhelming police presence on the day) it would only have led to mass arrests and serious violence to no end. To suggest that getting lots of Asian young people battered and arrested by the police/racists would have heralded some sort of victorious outcome only reveals the ultra-left idiocy of Workers Power.
Those serious about confronting the fascist BNP and EDL in Leeds and elsewhere will celebrate the unity showed by Saturday's demonstration and think instead about how on any future occasion we can each of us mobilise another four or so people to bring with us - and in particular how we can begin to get more serious delegations of trade unionists onto such protests in future. We are in for a long battle here and the struggle against racism and fascism in Leeds and elsewhere is not going to be won in one day whatever happens or might have happened - we need to build a mass movement. The numbers UAF has proved it can mobilise shows that for all its limitations it remains the best hope of being the organisation that can build such a movement - remember, we have to deal with not only the street thugs of the EDL but also the still far more dangerous Nazi BNP who are currently still avoiding street confrontations and focusing on elections. Setting up a miniscule 'Antifascist Defence League' will solve nothing and potentially only divide our forces - it is critical that we remain united against fascism.
UAF member
Homepage: http://www.leedsuaf.org.uk
Bullshit UAF
02.11.2009 14:09
UAF is a sham operation lead by complete fuckwits like weyman bennet. The quicker something new, pro-working class, revolutionary comes about the better. I don't think UAF will keep maintaining the emmerging radical elements if all they do is organise pointless rallies full of class traitors and politicians.
Anarchist Antifascist
need for an open antifascist grassroots group
02.11.2009 14:11
The EDL must be dealt with, repeats of Saturday cannot be allowed to continue, and we must open a way for people to come together. Watch this space.
frustrated
to "uaf member" - bollox
02.11.2009 14:22
What was needed was more of us down there to show that the few people standing up had wider support, and when the gang of thugs broke away then we could have had the numbers to deal with those evil fuckwits rather than let them march through town unopposed.
Your analysis is cynical because you are simply trying to justify the UAF leaderships betrayal, when clearly there was the need and desire to confront EDL directly.
But you hoist yourself by your own petard - the UAF got their numbers and their show and it was only at the end that they did the police's job for them and intervened to stop people going down to the EDL demos. 1,500 people at the Library holding a rally that served only the purposes of the political groups - what a sick waste of a mobilisation. You should be fucking ashamed of yourselves. You did the work of the bosses.
frustrated
Who is really talking bullshit?
02.11.2009 14:26
Of course, New Labour are very far from social democracy - even perhaps an enemy of it - but lets not pretend the British working class has completely broken from Labourism and reformism and is currently biting at the bit for revolution. One task ahead is to build up trade union support for anti-fascist activism - and that means uniting with Labour Party members. Calling them 'fascist' or members of a 'fascist' party not only makes such unity impossible but shows both a complete lack of understanding about fascism and a complete lack of understanding about the British working class movement. And yet some people still wonder why an anarchist movement has never taken off in Britain?
UAF member
Homepage: http://www.leedsuaf.org.uk
Problems
02.11.2009 14:43
Then we have the UAF, who are to put it frankly, fucking useless. A terrible SWP front more interested in selling papers than stopping fascism.
So how do we build a real alternative? How do we get ourselves to where the German anti-fascist movement is? Do we build Antifa into a larger, more visible movement or keep it as decentralised militant cells?
I don't know, but we gotta do something fucking quick!
Brap
to uaf member
02.11.2009 15:12
We definitely need broader movement apart from antifa and we need to stop influence of UAF on anti-fascist activity in this country. Luckily people begin to open their eyes to disgusting tactics of uaf leadership. hopefully next time those stewards help police in stopping people, they get fucking kicking themselves.
antifascist
SWP/UAF/LABOUR
02.11.2009 15:22
Anonymous
numpties everywhere and not a drop to drink
02.11.2009 15:41
If you had the force of numbers combined with enough militancy, you wouldn't have let yourself be forced into a pen just where the police wanted you. I'm not dissing the militancy and attempts to confront the EDL, but clearly we didn't have the numbers it took!
And not wanting to defend the UAF necessarily, but if any "leadership" organised an official counter-rally, the police would put it in the wrong place, and their stewards would be legally bound to do the police's job for them. That's what doing it officially and therefore being legally responsible does, and that's what leaderships do, lead us into a situation where they are in charge and we are not. Did you lead us into the pen or where you elsewhere?
Let the UAF do their thing, and let's organise ourselves in parallel. If we're numerous and strong enough, it'll work (or we could just spend our time sniping at the SWP).
We can be united in our diverse approaches - if we try to stay united with leaders, it will fracture into internercine bollocks. People have been bleating on about creating mass movements for decades now and it still hasn't happened. Don't wait whilst listening to speeches, bash the fash now!
doorknock
Numbers
02.11.2009 15:46
Taken from another site:
I suppose I count as a veteran anti-fascist having attended protests as far back as Welling in the early 90s. I went along today because I now live in Leeds although I can't say I'm wildly enthused by the UAF.
I've never known an atmosphere like the one I experienced this afternoon. There were hundreds of right wing thugs (complete with obligatory poppies) roaming around the city centre in groups of 20-30. Some were heavily hemmed in by police but others seemed to be able to move around the main shopping streets unchallenged.
I went with a group of 100-150 anti-fascists to try to get to the EDL demo in City Square from the west but we were stopped by the police.To be honest, it felt a bit half-hearted. I think the wiser ones among us realised that we were no match for the football hooligans that the EDL seems to be able to turn out in increasing numbers. Something is going badly wrong. The fascists have lost their fear. In the old days they would never have dared to parade around the centre of a major British city in racist t-shirts whereas today small groups of them stood just across the road from the UAF counter-demo shouting abuse and were only finally chased off by the police after about a hundred anti-fascists surged across the road towards them (but STILL didn't seem willing to attack).
There's a Catch 22 here. Either we mobilise Muslim youth to even up the odds but risk providing the EDL with the propaganda (and ruck) they want or we keep it largely middle class/student and effectively rely on the police to protect us.
Fascist have held a major demo in Leeds and were not challenged. All in all, a depressing day.
magica
Re: Magica
02.11.2009 16:11
Green Anarchist
No
02.11.2009 16:32
magica
Magica, that IS a sexist assumption
02.11.2009 18:46
Pinkolady
look
02.11.2009 19:32
magica
Please...
02.11.2009 20:58
Rudeboy
Homepage: http:// www.antifa.org.uk
In fact...
02.11.2009 22:02
In the past in Britain (and still today in most other European countries) opposing fascism was considered a duty by almost all anarchists and socialists. Today, many (particularly within the British anarchist movement) have abdicated responsibility for taking on the fascists, and either ignore the issue completely, or at best seed responsibility to specialist antifascist groups such as Antifa. Opposing fascism is something ALL of us have to play a part in, particularly with the growing influence of fascist groups like the British National Party (BNP.)
Organizations like ‘Unite Against Fascism’ (UAF) and ‘Hope Not Hate’ would probably agree with the above premise. However, while many of their rank and file supporters may be genuine in their intent, the organizations themselves have no real interest in defeating organized fascism. The UAF is a front-group dominated and controlled by the Trotskyite ‘Socialist Workers Party’ (SWP) who are far more interested in selling papers and recruiting members than in effectively confronting the BNP. ‘Hope Not Hate’ were set up by the State-affiliated entity ‘Searchlight’, who tell us we can stop the BNP by voting Labour and helping to strengthen the tools of the State itself (i.e. new laws.) Both groups merely seek to manipulate and exploit antifascists, and arguably their stupid politics must take some of the share of responsibility for the rise of the BNP in the first place. At best they are a waste of time.
Antifa is a network of ordinary men and women opposed to the rise of the Far-Right. We work autonomously, but are united by a shared set of principles enshrined in our Founding Statement. If you support our position, you can get involved with one of our groups, or you could even set up your own. Ultimately however, we are not asking for people to join us; we are not asking for your contact details or for your money; we are simply asking for you to ACT.
While their true aims have not changed in the slightest, the BNP are trying to make the move from the shadows of neo-Nazism to mainstream politics. They are hiding their old swastika armbands under suit jackets and going out leafleting instead of petrol-bombing the homes of Asian families (leaving that kind of terror to their fascist allies and their ‘off-duty’ members.) They stand candidates in elections and regularly hold stalls in town centres around the country. Going public in this way however, makes them vulnerable.
Besides the BNP, there are other fascist groups who must also be opposed when they come out onto the streets. They are in many ways even easier to combat. In fighting organized fascism the only limits are our imagination and courage, even small numbers of people can make a difference.
Antifa however, also believe in organizing within our own communities against the spread of racism stirred up by everyone from the mainstream media to New Labour, and against the fascism of the BNP. Only by organizing in our own communities and workplaces can we hope to defeat fascism once and for all. In the white working-class areas where the BNP have already gained a toe-hold (primarily former Labour strongholds where people rightly feel betrayed by the mainstream parties and have been conned into seeing the BNP as some form of ‘radical’ alternative), as well as confronting the BNP physically, we should aim to challenge the BNP’s fascist politics and replace them with our own anti-racist, anti-state, and pro working-class politics.
These are desperate times for antifascists and all of us must play our part in taking on organized fascism. Antifa believe we have already shown on numerous occasions that a relatively small number of dedicated antifascists can score decisive victories. Most of our actions and activities go unreported, but the fascists know and fear us. Imagine what a difference it would make if there were thousands of us.
Antifa England
Rudeboy
time to get militant
02.11.2009 22:25
Ultra lefty
EDL punch up with C18/BM/BH in London last saturday
02.11.2009 22:34
“Last night, without our knowledge, Islam4UK cancelled their march through London and we were left with a technical victory today. As the day went on people started leaving/moving to other places in London. We heard that the EDL were down the road singing anti German songs and singing songs with messages basically saying that the people of Dresden deserved what they got in the Dresden bombings. About 15 of us that was left went down there and got ourselves and pint and had a conversation with some of the EDL. The youth were there, including their leader Joel, and the older lot were there too. Somehow, something kicked off about the EDL being pro zionists and supporting Jews, and we opposed it, we were all outside and they started chanting “C18 Nazis”. We 15 ended up kicking off with about 50 – 60 EDL, who were throwing fire extinguishers, pint glasses, bottles, and various other things. We stood our ground to a point but had to disperse. After getting away through Trafalger Square we heard screams and looked around. One of our C18 brothers had been smashed around the back of the head and had fallen flat out on the road unconscious, drowning in a pool of blood. 10 minutes later coming back to the scene, he was still laying there and was cornered off with police tape.”
To some of us that have been following the rise of the EDL then it won’t surprise you to see this happening. As soon as an Israeli flag was displayed in Birmingham 80% of the boneheads in the UK denounced EDL as a “ZOG front group”. Make of it what you will.
An EDL reponse:
“Whatever the reasons, the edl were attacked first.
We (10 EDL) were outside the pub when around 15 blokes came out of the pub and started shouting ‘edl cunts’ and ‘jew lovers’, at least 3 of them sieg heiled at us and a bottle came over.
We squared up and they came at us, a ruck ensued and glasses and bottles were thrown by both sides aswell as punches.
Mid-fight more EDL came running out of the pub and joined us but there was never 40-50, maybe 25 at most.
The lads who attacked us ran across whitehall toward trafalgar square and left one of their lads who got cracked over the back of the head in the road and collapsed on the other side of the road and another got few slaps inside the theatre foyer.”
Anarchist Antifascist
UAF failures
03.11.2009 21:18
Call me sexist if you want, but I don't feel comfortable with women being expected to partake in serious violent anti-fascist activities. In and amongst the EDL are some really dangerous, veteran football hooligans who live and breathe violence. If we are going to confront these people, it will take people who can match them physically. Cold hard biology says to me that women are at a huge disadvantage when it comes to this. I don't have any moral or political objection to women taking part in anti-fascist activities, but on a purely practical level i think it's foolish to expect women to be able to win any serious confrontation against these people.
When I go out to these demo's, and I've been involved in this for nearly 10 years, I only go with people who can fight back. This excludes a lot of people, a lot of overlwhelmingly white, middle-class male uni students who are with the best of intentions up for it, but who quite frankly would be worse than useless if they were expected to trade blows with a 100 millwall football hooligans. It's not a nice call to have to make, but when you put your safety at risk in this way it needs to be done.
I don't say this with any pride, I understand it is sexist to some degree, and I wish it were not this way. Believe me, if I were to find a group of 6ft+ women with previous experience of organized violence and who can fight and WIN against experienced footie hooligans, then I would be very happy and they would be welcome. But until that day comes, I would rather not have them involved. This is not explicitly about gender, it's about the ability to fight and about being comfortable around very violent situations.
I know I am going to get loads of shit for this, and please don't assume that I'm a fucking chauvinist, I am just facing up to some really uncomfortable facts of life. It's not a matter of not thinking women don't have the right to protest against fascism, but I do think that if we're talking about pre-meditated and organized violence that it should be left to those who are the best at it, and as a general rule that is men not women.
This doesn't refer to the whole of the UAF or antifascist movement, just those who are intending on physically confronting the fascists and beating the living shit out of them.
on another note, I believe we would be best served by organized seperately from UAF. In Manchester there were at least 150-200 people there who were capable of causing the EDL some real problems. If these were split into groups of between 30-50 people, who could roam around without being penned in by police and UAF stewards, it would be possible to pick off the small groups of EDL before they arrive in the city centres and consolidate, like what happened in manchester. Early in the day they numbered no more than 50 in any group and were scattered around manchester, but when they were allowed to meet up with their other comrades they ended up with around 700 or so people. We cannot beat 700 football hooligans. In a straight fight, the EDL in leeds would've destroyed the UAF counter demo, despite the 300 or so numerical advantage. In Manchester the UAF had a bigger turnout, around 2,000 at it's peak, and with a 3:1 manpower advantage we may have been able to physically beat them, but due to the incompetence of the UAF and the brutality of the police this was prevented from happening.
People should basically organize themselves into groups of between 30-50, stay away from the police and UAF, organize spotters at the train stations, and lay low until they recieve word of stray fascists away from the police. When they get the nod, turn them over, and disperse. Get drivers and escape routes planned in advance.
Also, motorbikes are very useful. In Germany gangs of 50 or so motorcyclists have been known to turn up at demos wearing crash helmets, stab vests and steel-toe boots, batter some fascists, get back on their bikes and disperse seperately preventing the police from following. It's very hard to knock someone out when they've got a crash helmet on.
This is the kind of thinking we need if we are to beat the EDL physically. No parasan
Autonomous Salford Anti-Fascist
There already is an anti fascist defence league
03.11.2009 21:42
Londoner
UAF seperation
04.11.2009 17:42
I think that a total seperation from UAF is the way forward - let them monopolise a microphone and plead peace while a collection of other organisations do the dirty work. IMO I think it would be beneficial if Antifa was a centralised national organisational unit rather than being localised (though I understand why they do this) and other major players get together..somehow...though i'm not sure how. With the tories coming into power, it will tip the balance further over to the right which is already gaining serious momentum.
The problem is the media have mixed up the UAF with episodes of violence so people are getting mixed messages - seeing storries about the UAF kicking off then seeing pictures of the UAF sitting peacefully in a city square.
It's time ladies and gentlemen....
antifash
quit the sexist shite
04.11.2009 18:39
frustrated
...
04.11.2009 19:24
So, basically..if you want to fucking go for it, then just fucking go for it. But none of us should be surprised when we are all beaten to the floor and stamped to death.
The media and popular culture will ensure that the far right continues to grow and any deviation from rightwing will be frowned upon.
So, in conclusion, let's not engage in an online gender-war...let's get fuckin moving to defeat the fascist bastards.
antifash
Point of information.
04.11.2009 21:27
Antifascist Insurrectionist
e-mail: cambridge.anarchists@googlemail.com
Homepage: http://cambridgeanarchists@wordpress.com
Salford anti-fascist: not my comrade
05.11.2009 00:14
And another thing, it is, believe it or not, possible to be militant without being macho.
anarcha fem
We should look to the ants...
05.11.2009 00:40
anarcha fem again
sorry...
05.11.2009 01:01
This thread alone show the impossibility of any such 'collectivity'.
On top of that, the UAF have shown a blatant disregard for any sort of militant action and would make sure such a situation NEVER arises. Salford anti actually makes an excellent point in priviledging the local as the focus for more militant activities. Know your own area, and keep these fuckers out! (that includes women as well btw!, do whatever you can manage. nothing more nothing less).
Quit talking on Indymedia though. Somebody set up some sort of meeting or something in real life.
I have been crying out for this for months now.
There is too much internet chatter innit!
Daz
Misinformed comments
05.11.2009 11:58
it should also be remembered that there are other no less important roles in militant antifascism other than physical confrontation for people who do not feel they are able to engage on this level such as intelligence work and producing propoganda.
i was probably guilty of attitudes as shown by people like salford anti-fascist on this thread until i went out on my first action and the first punch which floored some big cunt was thrown by a women who was literally half my size.
Antifascist Insurrectionist,
Yeah but workers power left afa to join the lollipop waving cretins of the anti nazi league when things started to heat up in the early 90s and they realised we weren't some ready made street army for them to take over with their superior leadership!
antifa in the area
so...
05.11.2009 18:24
antifash
Indymedia is not the place
05.11.2009 22:18
Contact your local anarchist group, organise a meeting in a social centre and plan to network via the existing anarchist networks. Unless something formal is proposed and sent to what currently constitutes the "anarchist movement" is all chatter. If people are serious about organising an anarchist response, then lets start a process NOW like I have outlined and let see what comes about -- in London we are attempting to form such a thing --- watch this space.
Anarchist Antifa
Get a grip
06.11.2009 03:35
You're complex and hard-thought theory, as right as it is, will not save you when there's experienced violent football hooligans in your face. In circumstances such as Leeds and Manchester, having large groups of women who are not experienced or physically capable of committing acts of pre-meditated violence would be more hindrance than help if we were actually going to stand toe-to-toe and fight with the EDL.
I hear a lot of fascists complain about how UAF prevent them from "confronting" the EDL, and with good cause, but think on. If by "confront" you mean stand toe-to-toe and trade blows, you'd best be aware that you're gonna lose if you're not able to match these people physically. In Leeds if the group marching from Hyde Park had been allowed to "confront" the EDL, as so many wish, then the result would've been 300 or so badly beaten protestors. Like it or not, the UAF and police saved them from a kicking in a Leeds.
These are uncomfortable facts to face, but if we don't accept them then we are going to lose. I don't get involved in any anti-fascist activity with the intention of losing. I go to win. I am not a martyr or a sacrificial lamb symbolically getting my head kicked in for the sake of the movement. Should you get your wish and be allowed to "confront" the EDL, without the UAF or the police to stop you, you'd better find at least another 200 capable of resisting an attack from the footie hooligans if you want to win.
In an organized street brawl I'm afraid the side with the most experienced, physically capable and naturally violent people usually wins. That's the truth. Those of who who have said "we need to be more like ants" or "I've seen two women fight once, it was horrible" need to get fucking real. When we talk about militant anti-fascism, to put it bluntly, it involved a criminal conspiracy of a large group of people, dedicated the idea of being able to greviously assault and physically batter hundreds of other people. This is a tall order, and if you want to accomplish it, you have to be ready to put aside some of your principled theories and do what works. You're theory won't save when it comes to the act of violence.
If women do want to get involved, at least fucking carry a knife or something to even the odds. If I knew a single woman who was prepared to come out with me and my people to batter some fash, and was not only willing but capable, you'd be welcomed with open arms. But I'm yet to find such a person. If anyone wants to prove me wrong come down to salford and make yourself known, we'll find you. Like I said right at the start, I have no moral or political objection to women taking part, it's just a matter of if there's any women out there actually capable of matching these EDL thugs blow for blow.
If you want to get militant, and judging by the comments on this article that's what people want, be aware of what this ultimately requires, otherwise come the moment of truth, you'll be given a cold, hard dose of reality at the boots and fists of the sexist, gender-role enforcing EDL, who already understand this.
There also seems to be this idea that with greater numbers we can just overwhelm the EDL. I disagree. Even when we outnumber them 2:1, if the police were to disappear and leave us to it, 80% of our ranks would scatter as soon as the confrontation took place. That's because, to our credit, our supports come from a diverse range of backgrounds and ages, and also include a lot of women. This is one of our strengths, because it shows how as a class we can united beyond the boundaries of gender and race, but it's a liability when it comes to being able to fight, because a large proportion of our support is drawn from people who are not comfortable with committing highly illegal acts of orchestrated violence, unlike our enemies.
They know this, and they will use it to beat us unless we get serious.
Autonomous Salford Anti-fascist
I agree with Salford
06.11.2009 10:22
Ex AFA
LeedsUAF lies
07.11.2009 16:35
What is most offensive about the UAF is their hollow call for unity - unity under their self-appointed and power seeking leadership is not the sort of freedom worth fighting for.
frustrated
cunts
07.11.2009 18:50
http://www.policeoracle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13043
the one
Women are ALREADY involved in militant antifascism
09.11.2009 12:04
It’s also good to (for once) see an antifascist thread on Indymedia that isn’t trolled to fuck by liberals. Let’s not try and disguise blatant sexism behind supposed ‘realpolitik’ though. Or even worse, pretend that these ideas have anything to do with Antifa. There has not been any form of organized militant antifascism in Salford (or indeed in Manchester as a whole) since AFA days, that is the reality. Nor have there been any groups or individuals from that part of the world clamouring to get involved with Antifa. Those of us who ARE actually involved in militant antifascist activity know and appreciate the full value of our women members, a knowledge based in reality and experience, not in fantasy. Women do not need the permission of ANYONE to get involved in militant antifascism, and certainly not those who are not actually involved themselves, and who tarnish antifascism with macho posturing and sexist attitudes. The EDL may have some ‘hardened street thugs’ in their ranks, they also have the usual share of posing wankers, stupid kids, and cowards. If we mobilize greater numbers of committed antifascists we can be more than a match for them. Trying to convince half our comrades that they would be better staying at home is hardly a good start. Dismissing women in this way is not only politically reprehensible, it is also tactically stupid.
Antifa activist
Homepage: http://www.antifa.org.uk
manchester?
09.11.2009 13:36
It depends what you mean by 'organized'. On a local level, certainly, but on a national level definitely not! What we need to do is coordinate what we do have on a national level.
If there is a problem it is that people see antifa as an exclusively 'anarchist ' and 'london based' organisation. What is needed is some kind of national conference away from London. Very hard in this day and age, I know, but necesscary all the same....
surely there can be some kind of 'public face', without giving the game away completely?
Come up to Manchester more, anyway, you might get a nice suprise......
jhgj
Up North
11.11.2009 11:25
Antifa IS largely, but by no means exclusively, made up of Anarchists. However, if people see it as LOndon-based, they are very much mistaken. I don't think it's giving anything away to say that none of the national Antifa conferences have been held in London, and the Antifa website does not currently even list a London group. We are hoping to hold some form of northern or national antifascist conference in the early months of next year, so it would be good if those interested in attending contact their local Antifa group.
Always happy to come over to Manchester to meet comrades there. We have made the offer several times already :)
Yorkshire antifascist
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