It's been a long time since AR groups achieved anything in the UK and we do need to consider other campaign ideas. It goes without saying that another demo like this will achieve nothing but I suppose it helps to keep supporters feeling they are still part of something

As asupporter of the ideas I'm sorry to say that none of the current campaigns attracts me because of their failing tactics. It's just a reality that they are getting nowhere.

Mike, if you feel so disheartened about the tactics of the UK AR movement, perhaps you should take a look at this
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X1sevSzvWw&feature=PlayList&p=0E8B905412635ADA&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=5
(sorry, I don't know how to add a link properly) - 3 activists, in attacking London Fur Company on the first day of a shopping fayre, managed to get them removed for the whole weekend, making no profit from the exploitation of animals.

Additionally, it doesn't take me to point out that HLS is bankrupt, and as everyone's b;urting out right now, it should be shut down by the new year.l

So, if you're disheartened by the AR movement that you see, perhaps you should look elsewhere. Otherwise... do something yourself?

To everyone else, see you Saturday!

Do not go, do something else instead. Maybe you would like to come up with some actual ideas rather than decrying what other people are doing?

Perhaps Mike has missed the recent features on AR successes? Perhaps he thinks that if you don't shut it down with one action, you shouldjust give up and go tot he pub?

The fact is that companies who are subjected to repeated and ongoing protests are not unaffected by them, and do see staff leaving because of the actions.

I'm looking forward to "yawn" & "Mike" closing down Sequani & liberating all the animals. We won't need to demo Sequani in the rain then.

I would like to ask how you measure AR success? I would also wager a guess that HLS's downward spiral is largely down to the global economic climate that has turned investment away rather than the animal rights movement. We just don't know...

As it stands at present the AR movement has shot itself in the foot and I fear it's irreversible. Once the government tighten the legal screw and the police are given more powers the movement have nowhere else to move. It's very clear that the very hard core of ALF activists are now locked, or at least most of them, leaving what? Even public demos have drastically declined.

The movement has lost it's edge.

(Enter Lynn)

HLS is down more than other CROs so it isn't simply the economic climate. The Plymouth Report details what the AR movement has done and continues to do to HLS. The animal rights movement is almost back now, it's time for everyone to get over themselves and get active.

You can try to dress it up anyway you like but the fact remains that there has been no real sucess for the AR movement in the UK in recent years because the tactics are fundamentaly wrong. The SHAC campaign is a perfect example of that. Another month passes and another claim of HLS going bust which is patently untrue however if individuals feel they are making a diffference then by all means carry on but I just don't think you are it's really that simple

I do other work in the field of AR exactly because I think this never ending repetition of previous failure is innefective and a little bit pathetic. Sorry

As you clearly know better than people who are putting energy and taking risks to further their campaign, what the correct tactics are - why don't you let all of us in on the secret?

Its dead easy to criticise others , but it looks like trolling if you fail to make that criticism constructive. So, why not tell us the best way to achieve animal liberation?

Its what we all want, is it not?

It's ever so easy to sit on the sidelines and throw criticisms without offering advice, last time I checked it was shit bags like Rupert Murdoch and his cronies that usually indulge in that sort of thing under the guise of corporate media.

If you claim to give a damn about the animals you'd either a) be doing something for them, b) going undercover and exposing companies, or c) offer constructive advice for those who still want to fight. There is no room for option d) I'm afraid. If you cared about the animals being dosed in a lab come 9am tomorrow morning, you'd at least try to do something about it.

No point sitting on the sidelines giving up, if you care about the animals you owe it to them to do something.

While you concentrate on HLS (not the largest contract lab) others look at the whole picture. Animal testing has risen dramatically in recent years. New labs that hold animals are built and existing labs expand. HLS may have a bad share price and owe money but they are still winning contract and testing on animals.

Not my point though, you can't gauge the success, or not, of the animal rights movement on HLS, you need to look at the industry (in the UK) as a whole and it's in very good shape!

Animal rights in the UK on the other hand is in very bad shape and this is more than a dull spot that people predict, it's been dealt a massive blow that has killed grassroots animal rights as we have come to know.

New laws and the onslaught of injunctions have set a presidence that has changed the way campaigns that are less than fluffy can operate and record sentences for ALF activity has scared most off. What you are left with is a weak campaign because it was based on these two tactics. Don't insult our intelligence by claiming the two don't work hand in hand because they do. The legal, boarder line and illegal direct action are all mingled into one for grassroots AR campaigns.

We have to be realistic if we are ever going to move forward but people are stuck in this rut thinking that SHAC style tactics are the be all and end all of campaigning styles.

So I will ask you once again to tell me how you gauge the success of the movement, do you think that the industry will fold if HLS close down? Wake up.

@ Mike

"It's been a long time since AR groups achieved anything in the UK and we do need to consider other campaign ideas."

By a long time I'm guessing you mean Newchurch in 06? Either way this statement is completely unfounded. It would true to say that in recent years the animal liberation movement has achieved less, but this is because the movement is still breaking out of the third wave of state repression it has endured. Despite this success has been present.

A few examples this year include:

Next One Leather Go Fur-Free After ALF Visit:  http://northern-indymedia.org/articles/257
Fur Farms/Shops Closed:  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/10/439969.html
HLS Loan Facilities Withdrawn:  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/10/439411.html
Sean Kirtley Released From Prison:  https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/09/438407.html
Monkeys saved from vivisection:  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/09/437345.html
HLS Investor Dumps All Shares:  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/08/436452.html
Top Investors Dump HLS:  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/05/430404.html
Norwegian Whaling Ship Scuttled:  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/04/428802.html
Top HLS Investors Dump Shares:  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/02/422852.html

Just to point out these are only the major victories taken from the features list.

@ Ricky

"Once the government tighten the legal screw and the police are given more powers the movement have nowhere else to move."

Your first incorrect analogy is presuming this is the first time police have been given more powers and the state has tightened the legal screw. The repressive eras for animal liberation were 1974-1976 (pre-ALF), 1984-1986 (first wave), 1993-1996 (second wave) and 2005-2008 (third wave). There have been more 'mini-crackdowns' but these would be the major ones. Do not be fooled into thinking repressing social movements is new, its historically systematic.

"It's very clear that the very hard core of ALF activists are now locked, or at least most of them, leaving what? Even public demos have drastically declined."

There is no evidence to suggest that a 'hard core of ALF activists' are now locked up. Yes in recent years they have been to some degree deterred, but this does not imply they are locked up. Implying this is playing into the hands of the state, who are claiming that they have locked up ALF activists, whereas they have only in reality locked up their supporters. Every new wave brings back the ALF actions and the fourth wave will be/is no exception. For example the MFAH have notoriously toured Western Europe using incendiary tactics against HLS customers and investors causing a numbers of small victories, directors quitting etc.

As for the theory that public demos declined I again don't see the evidence of this, if anything I would say the repression has increased activity in this area. In 2007 following the anti-vivisection crackdown the SHAC national march had an increased attendance of 700+. In 2008 there were more SHAC demos than any other years for the campaign. In 2009 over two thousand people march against vivisection. Where's the decrease? If you talk of the days when there were tens of thousands of people marching against vivisection then this was before the repression of the 1990s, which is nothing to do with current SHAC/ALM tactics. Not to mention that these supporters were not activists, so the 'public spectacle' wasn't representative of the movement itself, it was instead extremely misrepresentative.

"Not my point though, you can't gauge the success, or not, of the animal rights movement on HLS, you need to look at the industry (in the UK) as a whole and it's in very good shape!"

The vivisection industry is not in good shape. It has expensive security measures denting their profits, a limited numbers of animal breeders in the UK increasing costs due to sourcing animals from abroad, and researchers are still hesitent to engage in animal testing. Support is also still dropping with companies continuing to distance themselves from the industry.

"So I will ask you once again to tell me how you gauge the success of the movement, do you think that the industry will fold if HLS close down? Wake up."

Nobody thinks the industry will fold if HLS close down, but activists do know it has the potential to do so with continued campaigns of direct action. Why on earth do you think the state bother to repressive the movement if they weren't threatened by its tactics? When activists closed down scores of animal breeders for vivisection, nobody thought the industry which just collapse instantly, but that it would do so overtime if things continued.

While I appreciate the debate over tactics, it's only worthwhile when its constructive, which so far this criticism has completely failed to achieve. Why no positive suggestions yet?

The movement as a whole is determined, strong and very active globally right now. This shows the strength of feeling of those involved in making this revolution actually happen.

These negative psycholgical posts are specifically designed to paint a hopeless picture. It goes hand in hand with their agendas. Ignore them.

"Your first incorrect analogy is presuming this is the first time police have been given more powers and the state has tightened the legal screw. The repressive eras for animal liberation were 1974-1976 (pre-ALF), 1984-1986 (first wave), 1993-1996 (second wave) and 2005-2008 (third wave). There have been more 'mini-crackdowns' but these would be the major ones. Do not be fooled into thinking repressing social movements is new, its historically systematic."

You make the mistake is thinking that you are the only one who knows about the history of the animal right movement, it is you who's the presumptuous one.

With every "wave" as you put it came notable damage to the movement to the point we are at today. with each turn of the screw you can note change. Gone are the days of consort and Shamrock because the industry has adjusted it's tactics to fit the pressure, that's why we don't see the mass liberation's of the early days. Early closures where an obvious conclusion but not so these days, it's easy to paint strip, smash and terrify a small shop owner and his family because he sells fur but is this a real victory in the real sense?

The difference in the government tightening of the screw this time is that the laws are directed at the movement ie: to affect a contractual agreement with a pharmaceutical company. Never before have the movement seen so many of it's key campaigners serving prison sentences and with many more to come. Hardly a "mini crackdown" this time.

"A few examples this year include:

"There is no evidence to suggest that a 'hard core of ALF activists' are now locked up. Yes in recent years they have been to some degree deterred, but this does not imply they are locked up. Implying this is playing into the hands of the state, who are claiming that they have locked up ALF activists, whereas they have only in reality locked up their supporters. Every new wave brings back the ALF actions and the fourth wave will be/is no exception. For example the MFAH have notoriously toured Western Europe using incendiary tactics against HLS customers and investors causing a numbers of small victories, directors quitting etc."

In the UK the courts have convicted many that went under the flag of the ALF it's just a coincidence actions of the sort are at an all time low in the UK? We all know that Eu and the rest of the world carry on but this isn't about the global movement it's about the state of the AR movement in the UK. It will not be long before the rest of the world catch up and impose the same oppressive laws as they have in the UK.

"The vivisection industry is not in good shape. It has expensive security measures denting their profits, a limited numbers of animal breeders in the UK increasing costs due to sourcing animals from abroad, and researchers are still hesitent to engage in animal testing. Support is also still dropping with companies continuing to distance themselves from the industry"

Get real, the industry has made profit, expanded and breed their own animals in many cases. Do you have any idea what's going on at Covance? I would like to see the statistics that support your assertion that support for animal testing has dropped. Fur sales in the UK are certainly UP! More animals are tested on in the UK now than ever and tell me how many vaccines will be given this year, how many cancer treatments will be given..?

"Nobody thinks the industry will fold if HLS close down, but activists do know it has the potential to do so with continued campaigns of direct action. Why on earth do you think the state bother to repressive the movement if they weren't threatened by its tactics? When activists closed down scores of animal breeders for vivisection, nobody thought the industry which just collapse instantly, but that it would do so overtime if things continued."

Many in the movement think that the industry will fold if HLS crash. The government are protecting an industry that is massive, so much so it would have an affect on our economy if they pulled out of the UK. It's a money spinner on a mind bending scale and pressure from such an industry with friends in high places is inevitable!!

"
While I appreciate the debate over tactics, it's only worthwhile when its constructive, which so far this criticism has completely failed to achieve. Why no positive suggestions yet?"

What's the point is making any suggestions to people who walk around with their eyes closed?
Surprised this who topic hasn't gone missing like others, even INDY has gone down the tubes!!!

"What's the point is making any suggestions to people who walk around with their eyes closed?
Surprised this who topic hasn't gone missing like others, even INDY has gone down the tubes!!!"

Please tell us your way of doing things. If your campaigns are so great and change so much then you will find we will all back them.

You first, I asked the question a while ago "I would like to ask how you measure AR success?" but as yet I have had no answer.

I have also said that demonstrations are a waste of time and all the do is cause people a headache. Just look around youtube and see the crazy childish antics some campaigners get upto, it almost looks like they go out of their way to wind the law up because they have read a pamphlet. Makes the movement look like a joke.

 http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=newcastle+animal+rights&search_type=&aq=f

Just a selection of bad demo styles and they wind the public up!!!!

Success is if it is worse for animal abusers because the AR movement exist than if it did not. There is not 'bad' and 'good' protesters (as pointed out by Climate Camp) and NAR is a great group. Some groups focus on public opinion others on direct pressure, it takes all types to make a movement. Now tell me your amazing plan for animal liberation.

By your strange logic the animal rights movement are fucked then, they do nothing but shout badly done too.

"You make the mistake is thinking that you are the only one who knows about the history of the animal right movement, it is you who's the presumptuous one."

You implied that it was the first time the AR movement had suffered from repression, I only presumed what you thoroughly implied. Most would make the same mistake.

"Gone are the days of consort and Shamrock because the industry has adjusted it's tactics to fit the pressure, that's why we don't see the mass liberation's of the early days."

With the industry adjusting their tactics, so have campaigners. This is a non-issue!

"Early closures where an obvious conclusion but not so these days, it's easy to paint strip, smash and terrify a small shop owner and his family because he sells fur but is this a real victory in the real sense?"

1 less fur shop maybe? Less fur farms + shops = less fur! It's not hard to work out!!

"The difference in the government tightening of the screw this time is that the laws are directed at the movement ie: to affect a contractual agreement with a pharmaceutical company."

So? All that this shows is that animal liberationists are continuing to be picked out for repression. Just like civil rights, suffragettes and the like recieved. It's just highlighting that we are a real, serious and successful social movement not to be underestimated!

"Never before have the movement seen so many of it's key campaigners serving prison sentences and with many more to come. Hardly a "mini crackdown" this time."

That's because each crackdown is harsher, as your previous point clearly emphasises. Furthermore I didn't claim the recent crackdown was a mini one, I clearly categorised it as a major one - the third one since the ALF infact! Please don't misrepresent my views.

"In the UK the courts have convicted many that went under the flag of the ALF it's just a coincidence actions of the sort are at an all time low in the UK?"

Who exactly were convicted under the flag of the ALF? This is just more misinformation that is consistent by trolls on Indymedia. There infact hasn't been an ALF activist convicted since 2006 - that's three years!

"It will not be long before the rest of the world catch up and impose the same oppressive laws as they have in the UK."

Severe repression is inevitable for any social movement to succeed. The sooner it arrives the better, the sooner it spreads the better, the sooner it's recognised the better, the sooner it's confronted and dealt with the better.

"Get real, the industry has made profit..."

Again, a misrepresentation of what I said. I clearly stated profits were dented, not removed. If there were no profits there quite obviously wouldn't be an industry!

"What's the point is making any suggestions to people who walk around with their eyes closed?"

I could say the very same thing to you, but I simply don't rise to your level of ignorance. If your theory is do nothing and it'll sort itself out then I don't want to know anyway thanks.

"You first, I asked the question a while ago "I would like to ask how you measure AR success?" but as yet I have had no answer."

Less profit = less consumerism = less abuse. It's simple economics that dicates change.

Maybe success can only be called success with hindsight many years hence. I know that when I go on a demonstration that in itself that will change nought, ditto writing a letter or spraying graffiti etc and so do others. As part of a whole though such actions are of immense importance.
Will HLS close? If it does will the vivisection industry crumble? Dunno is my honest answer but we have to try, we have to do our best. If you think that activists are down a dead end then you need to come up with what YOU think would work not just persistant negativity. It is tireless resistance and persistance that are our greatest weapons and if nothing else every demonstration against Sequani is resistance against a police state which tried to stop all protests in that area with chilling brute force. Futhermore very often we fail to realise our effectiveness. I remember years ago a very experienced hunt sab' telling me how he stood outside a covert all day calling hounds who would not come to him, he felt defeated, crestfallen fearing that they had killed. Later he spoke to a hunt follower who was furious because the huntsman could not draw the covert and spent all his time trying to keep the pack together. The sab' could see none of this but he had been highly effective. Likewise I have attended many demos, thought "what's the point?" and read witness statements often years later from employees who were barred from going home by hysterical managers and delivery drivers who refused to deliver with demonstrators outside.
We should be realistic and acknowledge blows against us but we must have courage the most excellent definition of which was coined by Churchill which goes something along the lines of undiminished enthusiam in spite of repeated failure. If at first you don't succeed try try again the mantra of every single sucessful movement and individual in history. Remember Robert the Bruce hiding from the English being inspired by a little spider's dogged determination to swing rom one end of the cave to the other? Never give up, even if only one of us is left and all around me I see new young and enthusiastic activists full of energy hitting animal abuse hard.
Realism and constructive criticism is fine but not negativity without any direction on how activists might do things better.

You constantly rant and rave about animal rights and civil rights, but you are confused surely?

Quote: "The victory comes two days after police raided two houses of animal rights campaigners in Leeds, following vandalism against the fur shop owner's home. Animal Liberation Front (ALF) activists said in an anonymous communique to Bite Back Magazine they spraypainted the doorway, paint stripped his car and slashed the tyres. Police claim the message painted read "Fur Scum".

Please tell me why it's ok to stamp all over the rights of others who don't think the way you do?

"You implied that it was the first time the AR movement had suffered from repression, I only presumed what you thoroughly implied. Most would make the same mistake."

What a joke, because I didn't go into the history you say I the ink this is the first time the AR movement have suffered repression? You would do well in Parliament!

"With the industry adjusting their tactics, so have campaigners. This is a non-issue! "

It is very much the issue since most of the campaigners are not seen anymore, excitement has gone out of it, the law have turned the screws and now sentences are heavy even more will jump ship.

"1 less fur shop maybe? Less fur farms + shops = less fur! It's not hard to work out!!"

Fur sales are up in the UK, no it's not hard to work out, well for some that is.

"So? All that this shows is that animal liberationists are continuing to be picked out for repression. Just like civil rights, suffragettes and the like recieved. It's just highlighting that we are a real, serious and successful social movement not to be underestimated!"

The only people to be repressed are them that carry out illegal acts and dress it up as a legal campaign. On the whole the animal rights movement are left alone it's got nothing to do with serious or success but everything to do with illegal acts, blackmail and intimidation. There are many other mainstream campaigns out there you know.

"That's because each crackdown is harsher, as your previous point clearly emphasises. Furthermore I didn't claim the recent crackdown was a mini one, I clearly categorised it as a major one - the third one since the ALF infact! Please don't misrepresent my views."

There is a big difference between what is happening like I've said. For the first time laws are directed at anti vivisection campaigns and you have most of the main grassroots campaigners locked up or on bail. Massive difference.

"Who exactly were convicted under the flag of the ALF? This is just more misinformation that is consistent by trolls on Indymedia. There infact hasn't been an ALF activist convicted since 2006 - that's three years!"

Sarah Whithead.

"Severe repression is inevitable for any social movement to succeed. The sooner it arrives the better, the sooner it spreads the better, the sooner it's recognised the better, the sooner it's confronted and dealt with the better."

That's your opinion based on what? The current crack down on illegal activity? It's got nothing to do with animal right as a movement but everything to do with an elliment that has hijacked the movement and bullies everyone who doesn't support illegal direct action, you know the sort of activity that has attracted so much negativity.

"Again, a misrepresentation of what I said. I clearly stated profits were dented, not removed. If there were no profits there quite obviously wouldn't be an industry!"

A dent? Don't make me laugh. The industry is making profit massive amounts of profit, the industry is expanding and the industry is killing more now than before. Don't cherry pick my replies. "Get real, the industry has made profit, expanded and breed their own animals in many cases" you take out what you want but we can all read back. Keep in context.

"I could say the very same thing to you, but I simply don't rise to your level of ignorance. If your theory is do nothing and it'll sort itself out then I don't want to know anyway thanks"

My theory? Now you make it up as you go a long!

"Less profit = less consumerism = less abuse. It's simple economics that dicates change."

If this is how you measure success....

Next time you go down to the supermarket have a good look around, look around at all the fast food outlets, count the chemists, hospitals and doctors. We eat more animal products now, we take more medications and the vivisection industry kill a record amount of animals each year.
Great success story!

@ Keith

"Please tell me why it's ok to stamp all over the rights of others who don't think the way you do?"

It's not. I am against those who stamp all over the rights of others, whether human or non-human. In your example the individual made the mistake of stamping over the rights of fur-bearing animals, even though these animals didn't think the way that he did. The fact that ALF activists recognised this oppression and acted in extensional self-defence is expected.

If your referring to the persons 'property rights' then these shouldn't be prioritised (or even recognised) over the rights of individuals, otherwise we place property over the importance of life. Anti-nazi fighters would agree with this thesis, re: destruction of gas chambers.

@ Ricky

"You would do well in Parliament!"

I realise this. I wouldn't leave a brick left standing!

"It is very much the issue since most of the campaigners are not seen anymore, excitement has gone out of it, the law have turned the screws and now sentences are heavy even more will jump ship."

How many times does it need to said? JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER SUCESSFUL MOVEMENT. The black panthers and suffragettes were barely seen anymore are going underground, the 'excitement' and 'enjoyment' left the struggle, many people 'jumped ship' because they were in it for the fun and 'guilt reducing' aspect. What's your point?

"Fur sales are up in the UK, no it's not hard to work out, well for some that is."

Exactly, finally we agree! Fur sales are up as despite the number of fur farms and shops closing there are still more opening. Until more are closed than opened this will continue.

"The only people to be repressed are them that carry out illegal acts and dress it up as a legal campaign. On the whole the animal rights movement are left alone it's got nothing to do with serious or success but everything to do with illegal acts, blackmail and intimidation."

Here you expose yourself as an uninformed media-fed liberal. What illegal acts are you referring to here; protesting at associates of vivisection, which are illegal but dressed up as a legal campaign? Every protest is indirectly intimidating, what's your point? The part of the ARM which is left alone are the ineffective parts, the pacifist prototypes and apathists.

"There are many other mainstream campaigns out there you know."

Really, I had no idea? You should tell anti-poverty campaigns that Oxfam exists too!

"There is a big difference between what is happening like I've said."

Exactly. The crackdown is MUCH larger because the movement is a MUCH bigger threat. Repression is always directly proportionate to the threat a movement poses. The state doesn't use sledge hammers to knock in a nail or bread roller to flatten a mountain!

"Sarah Whithead."

Sarah rescued animals under no banner of claim. I fail to see your point, it there was one.

"That's your opinion based on what? The current crack down on illegal activity?"

My facts are based on social history. For example the suffragettes and black panthers were severely and repeatedly repressed, stigmatized, divided, marginalised, attracting much negativity. Guess what though, they succeeded in their aims, that's all that counts.

"A dent? Don't make me laugh. The industry is making profit massive amounts of profit, the industry is expanding and the industry is killing more now than before."

This is not a logical thesis. To say that because something has expanded that damage hasn't been done is to firstly ignore that the industry has been expanding for decades and secondly to confuse profit with growth (in short it is the speed at which profit is created). It's the equivalent to saying there is no recession because industries are still generating profit (!!!)

For years liberationists use the right tactics and still oppression increases, this is because it takes time before the tables turn as it were. It doesn't imply that tactics are unsuccessful, just that tactics don't achieve immediate results over night.

"My theory? Now you make it up as you go a long!"

I said "If your theory is...". If it's not then just be mature and say it isn't, it's not difficult.

"We eat more animal products now, we take more medications and the vivisection industry kill a record amount of animals each year."

Again this is a flawed thesis basic on illogical conclusions. Because more exploitation is happening does not mean the expansion of this has not been curtailed to some degree. It's similar to saying a species is still becoming extinct so all attempts at saving the animals are insignificant, thus not effecting the outcome. This thoroughly ignores that action could be slowing down that extinction, hopefully to the point whereby it stops it and saves a species.

I highly recommend you do research into the term 'logic', something you are failing to grasp, along with basic economic knowledge. If I had to categorise your condition I'd say it's bordering on logical schizophrenia, which is unhealthy to say the least but is easily treatable.

I can only apologise for not being a complete and utter tool to society. One that takes the most indirect and ineffective method of changing things whilst making sure to obey the law.

"It's not. I am against those who stamp all over the rights of others, whether human or non-human. In your example the individual made the mistake of stamping over the rights of fur-bearing animals, even though these animals didn't think the way that he did. The fact that ALF activists recognised this oppression and acted in extensional self-defence is expected.

If your referring to the persons 'property rights' then these shouldn't be prioritised (or even recognised) over the rights of individuals, otherwise we place property over the importance of life. Anti-nazi fighters would agree with this thesis, re: destruction of gas chambers."

You are in real danger of falling flat on your face (Maybe you have already do it) if you think that a person selling items of fur has walked over the right of animals. That would leave your lifestyle wide open to criticism and expose you for the hypocrite you prove to be. The person who purchase the fur items (in most cases items that have small amounts of fur on and the shop keepers would not be forced to know) is also equally at fault and should be targeted in this way, according to your flawed logic.

You show how shallow your mind is if you think that property is the priority here. What about his family? What about the mental damage to him and his family? After all, this is why the action was carried out in this way and why it worked, it's called intimidation!

"The person who purchase the fur items (in most cases items that have small amounts of fur on and the shop keepers would not be forced to know) is also equally at fault and should be targeted in this way, according to your flawed logic."

Nobody said should be targeted, but could be targeted. It's clearly not as effective as you want to go for larger targets (ie fur farmers/shops rather than customers).
A good example of this however is here:  http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fur+hag&search_type=&aq=f

"You show how shallow your mind is if you think that property is the priority here. What about his family? What about the mental damage to him and his family? After all, this is why the action was carried out in this way and why it worked, it's called intimidation!"

It is you who is showing how shallow your mind is by not considering his family's mental damage, if he has a family, from being bought up to think selling the skin of innocent individuals is acceptable. It is mentally scarring and could lead to severe developments of violent behaviour against others. How do you even know his family didn't support this action?

Can you hear me crying over the action being intimidating though? All social movements create change from the use of intimidation and violence, get over it.

@, you are a very mixed up person. A sick puppy.

I give up

"Sarah rescued animals under no banner of claim."

Erm, the rescues were claimed as ALF actions.