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Ahmadinejad speech at UN 2009/Not anti-semitic, but just criticism on Israel

Astrid Essed | 03.10.2009 05:47 | Palestine | Repression | Liverpool

Not only the Western walkout at the UN 2009 Ahmadinejad speech is a part of a repeating show, consciously the Western countries make no distinction between Ahmadinejad's just criticism on Israel and his alleged ''anti-semitism''
Since the Western countries are directly and indirectly supporting the Israeli occupation, it is a shame and disgrace, that they walkout at this very speech, which brings into light the Israeli war-crimes and the Western implicite consent.

AHMADINEJAD SPEECH AT UN, SEPTEMBER 23, 2009/NOT ANTI-SEMITIC, BUT JUST CRITICISM ON ISRAEL

SUMMARY:


During his speech for the General Assembly of the United Nations dd 23-9-2009, the Iranian president, Mr M Ahmadinejad, has righlty uttered criticism as well at the zionistic character of the State of Israel, as the humanitarian conseqences of the 42 during Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories
Especially he has focused on the recent Israeli Gaza offensive, end of december [2008] untill medio january [2009]

Consciously and wrongly, this criticism is being associated by the Western leaders with ''anti-semitism''

The renewed Western ''walkout circus'' at the Ahmadinejad speech is not only hypocritical, also it reveals the Western political and moral co-responsibility for the Israeli occupation and her humanitarian consequences''

END OF SUMMARY

Dear Editor and Readers,

Undoubtedly you have learnt about the walkout of the Western diplomats at the Ahmadinejad speech for the General Assembly, dd 23-9-2009

Direct cause:

The allegedly ''anti-semitic rhetoric'' of Ahmadinejad [1]

REPEATING WESTERN SOAP-DRAMA WITH ONE LEITMOTIV ''ANTI-SEMITISM'':


This Western walkout is no single political decision, but a repeating soap-drama, with probably many seasons to be followed, although not as fascinating as ''Desperate Housewives'' [2]
For example there was a Western walkout during the speech of Ahmadinejad dd 20-4 of this year [2009] at the UN Anti-racism Conference, Durban II [3]

In that speech he rightly pointed out at the racist character of the Israeli Netanyahu government, as the humanitarian consequences of the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories [4]

THE ''ANTI-SEMITIC'' CHARACTER OF THE AHMADINEJAD SPEECH FOR THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE UNITED NATIONS, SEPTEMBER 2009

ANTI-SEMITISM VERSUS CRITICS ON ISRAEL AS A STATE


Anti-semitism is a form of racism, which is to be defined as hatred against and repulsion from Jews because of their religion, culture and their very existence.
It shows itself in all sort of negative qualifications for Jews [like a sick need for power, greed and common wickedness], blaming the real of alleged acts of one member of the group to the group as a whole
In this sense, it is comparable with the criminalisation in the nowadays European coutries of ''non-western'' minorities, East-Europeans, ''illegal'' refugees, blacks and muslims [5]

However, the UN speech of Mr Ahmadinejad shows no ''anti-semitic rhetoric'', but is referring to the zionist character of the State of Israel, with special reference to the ethnic cleansings of the Palestinians in 1948, as to the humanitarian consequences of the 42 years Israeli occupation.
Especially he has focused on the recent Israeli Gaza-offensive dd end of december [2008] till medio january [2009]

QUOTES FROM THE SOCALLED ''ANTI-SEMITIC'' RHETORIC

But first a quote of the socalled ''anti-semitic'' rhetoric in the United Nations speech of president Ahmadinejad [6]

''How can one imagine that the inhuman policies in Palestine may continue; to force the entire population of a country out of their homeland for more than 60 years by resorting to force and coercion; to attack them with all types of arms and even prohibited weapons;''
....................
....................
''How can the crimes of the occupiers against defenseless women and children and destruction of their homes, farms, hospitals and schools be supported unconditionally by certain governments, and at the same time, the oppressed men and women be subject to genocide and heaviest economic blockade being denied of their basic needs, food, water and medicine''

''Oppression against Palestinians and violation of their rights still continue; a new group of Palestinians who lived in al-Qod al-Sharif were again forced out of their homes as the destruction of their residential homes continues by the occupiers;''



As may be clear to anyone, who has taken the trouble to read the Ahmadinejad speech, he refers to the military behaviour of the Israeli STATE, focusing on its zionist character

The only time, he really refers to Jews, it is in the positive sense

See Quote from the Ahmadinejad speech

''The Secretary- General and the UN General Assembly can take the lead by undertaking necessary measures for the fulfillment of our shared goals on the basis of:

1 – Restructuring the United Nations in order to transform this world body to an efficient and fully democratic organization, capable of playing an impartial, equitable, and effective role in the international relations.....................................
..................................................................................
''restoration of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people by organizing a referendum and free elections in Palestine in order to prepare a conducive ground for all Palestinian populations, including Muslims, Christians and Jews to live together in peace and harmony''


As sofar for the ''anti-semitic'' rhetoric of president Ahmadinejad

ZIONISM VERSUS ANTI-SEMITISM

In his speech, Mr Ahmadinejad is referring consequently to the ''Zionist regime'' meaning the zionist character of the Israeli State
Without any pretention to give a full historical report, the following needs to be said about zionism:

Zionism is a political-ideological movement, which has been founded by the journalist Mr T Herzl at the end of the 19th century, with as an aim the foundation of a Jewish State in the then Turkish-Ottoman colony, Palestine [which has been British Mandatory Territory from 1922] [7]

Because of the influence of this movement and an agreement with the British government, calling the Balfour Declaration [8], in 1947 UN GA [General Assembly] Resolution 181 was accepted, by which the former British Mandatory Territory Palestine was divided in a Jewish and Arab part, without any voice of the autochtone Arab Palestinian population, who didn't agree with this partition

So the very execution of Resolution 181 was contrary with the right on selfdestination of the Palestinian population, living in Palestine for ages.

In may 1948, the Israeli-zionist politician, Mr D Ben Gurion, declared, that the Jewish part would be ''Israel''

In the following war between the State of Israel and the resisting Palestinian organisations [which were supported by a small army from the newly independent Arab States], by which war-crimes were committed by both parties [9] 750.000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes and country by Israeli troops [10]
More than 400 Arab villages were destroyed and a great number of mass-slaughters took place, among else Deir Yassin [11]

Those ethnical cleansings [the expulsions of 750.000 Palestinians] have been the basis of the present Palestinian refugee-problem

To those ethnical cleansings Ahmadinejad is referring in his speech, when stating

''How can one imagine that the inhuman policies in Palestine may continue; to force the entire population of a country out of their homeland for more than 60 years by resorting to force and coercion''

Regarding zionism it is also important to realize, that not all Jews are zionists
There is a considerable number of anti-zionists like Albert Einstein, Erich From, etc
With respect to Jewish anti-zionism it is worth to visit the Neturei Karta website of religious Jewish anti-zionists
See also an image of Ahmadinejad, embracing a member of Neturei Karta and the letter of approval of Neturei Karta with the Ahmadinejad speech at Durban II
[12]

As not all Jews are zionists, many non-Jews are, like European and American fanatical fundamental christians, the socalled ''christian'' zionists [13]

THE HUMANITARIAN CONSEQUENCES OF THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION
THE GAZA-OFFENSIVE
THE GAZA-BLOCKADE

''How can the crimes of the occupiers against defenseless women and children and destruction of their homes, farms, hospitals and schools be supported unconditionally by certain governments, and at the same time, the oppressed men and women be subject to genocide and heaviest economic blockade being denied of their basic needs, food, water and medicine.''

Quote speech Ahmadinejad

In his speech, Mr Ahmadinejad has mentioned ''the crimes of the occupiers', meaning the humanitarian consquences of the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories
Especially he has focused on the recent Israeli military Gaza offensive [end december/medio january 2009], in which Israel has committed a great number of war-crimes, like the use of phosophorous weapons in dense-populated areas, the destruction of houses, shooting on ambulances and mistreatment of prisoners of war

They are strictly forbidden according to International Humanitarian Law and the 3th and 4th Geneva Conventions [14]
Also they were followed by sharp criticism in the Goldstone-report [15]


The Ahmadinejad speech, is simply qualified by the Western countries as ''anti-semitic'', refusing to acknowledge the difference between real anti-semitism as critics on the Israeli military behaviour.

This is the more striking, since the Western countries are implicitly supporting the Israeli occupation, by refusing to summon Israel to withdraw from the occupied Palestinian territories, based on UN Security Resolution 242, dd 1967.

And not to forget the de facto American support for the Israeli occupation by the military support of 3 milliard dollars every year.


EPILOGUE:

The Ahmadinejad speech is not anti-semitic at all, but is justly critizising the political and military conduct of Israel as a State, as the Israeli occupation.

Therefore I regard is as a gotspe, that the Western countries, that never took any diplomatic or other sanctions against unlawful Israeli military behaviour, even at the Gaza-offensive, have walked out at this very speech.

Justly, Ahmedinejad is referring to the Western countries in this quote

''How can the crimes of the occupiers against defenseless women and children and destruction of their homes, farms, hospitals and schools be supported unconditionally by certain governments....
.................................................. .''

As long as the Western countries refuse to summon Israel to withdraw from the occupied Palestinian territories, they are co-responsible for the humanitarian consequences of the Israeli occupation.

The facts lay there, in the form of UN Resolutions and International Law

If history is judging, the Western world is NOT able to say

''WIR HABEN ESS NICHT GEWUSST''

Kind greetings

Astrid Essed
Amsterdam
The Netherlands

NOTES



[1]

Die Welt World De
dd 24-9-2009



Politics dd 24-9-2009

''UN delegates walk out over Iran's anti-Israel speech''

Quote:

''In a statement, spokesman to the US mission to the United Nations said "it is disappointing that Mr. Ahmadinejad has once again chosen to sepouse hateful, an offensive and anti-Semitic rhetoric."

Source


 http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4719464,00.html?maca=en-rss-en-top-1022-rdf

Full text UN speech Ahmadinejad dd 23-9-2009

 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23565.htm


[2]

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desperate_Housewives


[3]


The Haaretz
20-4-2009

''Durban delegates storm out in protest of Ahmadinejad speech ''

Source:


 http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1079592.html

[4]

a Colorado Indymedia:

''The Western walkout at the Ahmadinejad speech/Hypocrisy and lack of respect for fundamental human rights''

Astrid Essed
2-5-2009


Source

 http://colorado.indymedia.org/node/1681


b Foreign Policy Journal

''Ahmadinejad Holds Up a Mirror to Western Powers, Inviting Scorn''

Jeremy R. Hammond
21-4-2009

Source

 http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2009/04/21/ahmadinejad-holds-up-a-mirror-to-western-powers-inviting-scorn/


c Full text of the Ahmadinejad speech dd 20-4-2009


 http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_8010000/newsid_8010700/8010747.stm


[5]

Quebec Indymedia

Astrid Essed\
25-4-2007

''A tsunami of racism, the political views of Mr Wilders [Dutch MP]

Source

 http://quebec.indymedia.org/en/node/27273

[6]

Full text of the Ahmadinejad speech for the General Assembly of the United Nations, dd 23-9-2009

 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23565.htm


[7]


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Herzl


 http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story643.html


''Der Judenstaat'' '[The Jewish State]
Book, written by Herzl, elaborating the zionist ideology

 http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/6640/zion/judenstaadt.html


[8]


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917


About the Balfour Declaration, the writer A Koestler would remark

''"one nation solemnly promised to a second nation the country of a third".


Source


 http://www.1948.org.uk/preparing-the-ground/


[9]

At april 13th 1948, 4 days after the Deir Yassin massacre, there was an Arab military attack on a medical convoy travelling to Haddassah Hospital, with as a tragic result the death of 77 doctors, nurses, and other Jewish civilians.


[10]

Ilan Pappe
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine


 http://ilanpappe.com/?page_id=7


 http://www.ifamericansknew.org/


 http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html#1948


[11]

 http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jerusalem/Dayr-Yasin/index.html


 http://www.deiryassin.org/


[12]

Letter of approval Neturei Karta with the Ahmadinejad speech at Durban II, 20-4-2009

 http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Letters/Letter-Iran20090513.pdf

Website Neturei Karta

 http://www.nkusa.org/


 http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/images/ak04_m.jpg


[13]

It needs to be said here, that regarding to the occupied Palestinian population, less christian love and compassion is to be found, since those fundamentalists are strong supporters of the Israeli occupation, averting their conscience of the human rights violations, stemming from this occupation

[14]

INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW:


About the seven fundamental rules of International Humanitarian Law

1 - Persons hors de combat and those who do not take a direct part in hostilities are entitled to respect for their
lives and their moral and physical integrity. They shall in all circumstances be protected and treated humanely
without any adverse distinction.

6 - Parties to a conflict and members of their armed forces do not have an unlimited choice of methods and means of warfare. It is prohibited to employ weapons or methods of warfare of a nature to cause unnecessary losses or excessive suffering.

7 - Parties to a conflict shall at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants in order to
spare civilian population and property. Neither the civilian population as such nor civilian persons shall be the
object of attack. Attacks shall be directed solely against military objectives.




 http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/668BF8

ABOUT ISRAELI PRISONERS OF WAR:

Mr Shalit:

It is evident, that those rules are also applying to Israeli prisoners of war
I refer to the capture of Mr G Shalit, who is not yet permitted to correspond regularly with his family

See also

4 - Captured combatants and civilians under the authority of an adverse party are entitled to respect for their lives,dignity, personal rights and convictions. They shall be protected against all acts of violence and reprisals. They shall have the right to correspond with their families and to receive relief.


 http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/668BF8


 http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/palestine-news-180609!OpenDocument

THE 3TH AND 4TH GENEVA CONVENTIONS:



Article 3, 3th Geneva Convention

''Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.''

See

 http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e636b/6fef854a3517b75ac125641e004a9e68

This is referring to the mistreatment of Palestinian prisoners of war

See also


 http://www.hamoked.org.il/news_main_en.asp?id=644


Art. 53. 4th Geneva Convention

Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities, or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations.


 http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/7c4d08d9b287a42141256739003e636b/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5


The 4th Geneva Convention is appliable on Gaza, since according to International Law, Gaza is still occupied territory, because Israel is controlling its borders and air.


[15]


Goldstone report:


 http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2009/09/15/UNFFMGCReport.pdf











Astrid Essed

Comments

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Hidden Comment

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moderators - take this shit down! thanks

03.10.2009 12:01

I can't be bothered to read your summary and edited highlights of what Ahmadinejad might have said to be honest.

In your first lines you say his anti-semitism is alleged - perhaps not in this speech (?) but he's clearly been anti-semitic and homophobic countless times before, so you are just being an apologist for a dodgy dictator. It's irrelevant that some of what he says might be OK or indeed better.

It's all about context.

So being an apologist for someone who calls for the death of people he doesn't like (see above) is not something for Indymedia, in terms of it's policies.

small of memory

Who, waht, why, where.

03.10.2009 14:41

"In your first lines you say his anti-semitism is alleged - perhaps not in this speech (?) but he's clearly been anti-semitic and homophobic countless times before, so you are just being an apologist for a dodgy dictator. It's irrelevant that some of what he says might be OK or indeed better."

I want to know exactly what he has said. According to the media in this country he made statements denying the holocaust.

Now I here that he hasn't said that.

I want to know exactly what he DID say so I can form an opinion about what the media re up to. If it turns out they are unreliable then that effects my judgement on the previous stories they have reported about him.

Examiner

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tit4tat

03.10.2009 15:09

FACTS

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
---------------
"800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were either fled or forced out from Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s; 260,000 reached Israel in 1948-1951, 600,000 by 1972. The Jews of Egypt and Libya were expelled while those of Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and North Africa left as a result of a coordinated effort among Arab governments to create physical and political insecurity. Most were forced to abandon their property. By 2002 these Jews and their descendants constituted about 40% of Israel's population ... ... Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the State of Israel)"
----------------

Before talking about Palestinian refugees (and not mentioning Jewish ones) the ruler of Iran should ask himself why

"By most estimates,

between two and three million Iranians

live in North America, Europe, Persian Gulf States, Turkey and Australia (2008). For the most part they emigrated after the Islamic revolution in 1979." (from  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_citizens_abroad)

why these people were forced to leave Iran.

It́s quite obvious that he tries to veil the crimes on humanity in his country that forced about 5 Percent of his countrymen to leave their homeland by permanently pointing at and threatening Israel - a small nation of about 80 Percent Jewish inhabitants, sorrounded by at least more than one billion people of Islamic faith where some of them would like to eliminate it at all.

me

me

Hidden Comment

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Dinnerjacket denial

03.10.2009 15:30

Yeah, Dinnerjacket isn't anti-semitic... even though his TV station publishes Nick Kollerstrom's fascist ravings. (unable to link to here as it is "against site policy"- if I link to the proof that Dinnerjacket is a racist they will hide the post!)

Your mate Dinnerjacket is a fascist Holocaust denier and his defenders are either fascists or the dupes of fascists.

groaner

Hidden Comment

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You lie!

03.10.2009 15:39

You lie! Iran is a paradise on Earth it is the last redoubt of anti-imperialism and anti-zionism in a world controlled entirely by US imperialism and the so called Iranian community actually loves Iran, that's why they don't live there - they come here to tell us all how great it is.

PS Please hide the ravings of US Imperialist ZionCons who wish only harm upon the greatest socialist paradise on Earth, the Islamic Republic of Iran!

Astrid Essed

Hidden Comment

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Indymedia don't want you to know the truth about Achmedinejad

03.10.2009 15:55

This is what Achmedinejad believes, he prints it on his own state-owned propaganda channel, here is the proof, the regime print this horrible shit on their vanity publication of a news channel, so how can they not be deniers?

 http://www.presstv.ir/Detail.aspx?id=56287&sectionid=3510303


Indymedia will soon delete this link (as it's "coprorate media" and because it exposes the truth about the regime in Iran) so tell everyone you know to use the rider "c=all" when reading their threads and spread the truth that this site has a fascist sympathiser and a Denialist among its management.
He posts as "Jackslucid", and he believes that the Holocaust never happened and that the Jews were responsible for Stalinism's multi-million death toll.

He will be along shortly to "question" basic historical facts, meanwhile, remember, link this far and wide among anti fascists, c=all uncovers the dissapeared posts which these cowards hide the truth about themselves behind. Indymedia is not a leftist organisation but a cover for far right loons.

(They also encourage agents provocateurs to bring weapons to peaceful demonstrations - watch out for these scumbags, they are working for the government or the fash or something that STINKS to high heaven!)

01011010101

Hidden Comment

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?c=all

03.10.2009 19:19

Check out all the hidden posts - there's a lot of stuff about this Iran thing that Indymedia don't want you to know for some strange reason, like the Iranian media publishing Holocaust Denial material.

Unhider
- Homepage: http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/10/439130.html?c=all

Israeli PM Netanyahu: Threats to our existence must be nipped in the bud

03.10.2009 20:19


[photo] During his visit to Berlin in late August, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, left, studies original blueprints of the Nazi concentration camp in Auschwitz, Poland.

__________________


[propaganda alert]


1) Netanyahu: Our lesson from the Holocaust is that threats to our existence must be nipped in the bud (27 August 2009)

2) Merkel: Defending Israel is an eternal responsibility of Germany (27 August 2009)

___________________


 http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Communication/PMSpeaks/speechspringer270809.htm


excerpts from: PM Benjamin Netanyahu’s Speech at Axel Springer, Berlin, Germany

Israeli Prime Minister’s official web site, 27 August 2009


“We cannot allow this to be repeated. We, means the whole civilized world. We cannot allow those who wish to perpetrate mass death, those who call for the destruction of the Jewish people or the Jewish state, to go unchallenged. […] [T]he most important thing to do is to nip it at the bud.”


[Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, speech at the Axel Springer publishing house, Berlin, 27 August 2009]

___________________


 http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Communication/PMSpeaks/speechangela270809.htm


excerpt from: Joint Press Conference of PM Netanyahu and Chancellor of Germany, Angela Merkel in Berlin

Israeli Prime Minister’s official web site, 27 August 2009


“The Germans were the ones who were pursuing in a systematic way the annihilation of the Jewish people, planned it and implemented it in the form of the Holocaust. This is an everlasting, an eternal responsibility of our country, and part of a basic tenet of our policy, of our raison d’être as we put it, is to defend Israel always, and this is a responsibility incumbent upon my generation, coming out of another very terrible result in the past, and that is why we feel so responsible now also as regards Iran.”


[Germany’s Prime Minister Angela Merkel, joint press conference with the Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu, Berlin, 27 August 2009]

__________________


from the archives:


Gordon Brown: New sanctions on Iran is a priority – Benjamin Netanyahu: Time is running out (25 August 2009)

 http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/uk-new-sanctions-on-iran-is-a-priority-israel-time-is-running-out/


Israeli ambassador to US: Obama’s end-of-the-year deadline to Iran has been moved up to September (16 August 2009)

 http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/07/04/israeli-ambassador-to-us-iranian-nuke-could-wipe-off-israel-in-seconds/


Israeli ambassador to US: Iranian nuke could wipe off Israel in seconds (4 July 2009)

 http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/07/04/israeli-ambassador-to-us-iranian-nuke-could-wipe-off-israel-in-seconds/


Obama: The clock is ticking (26 June 2009)

 http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/obama-the-clock-is-ticking/


Obama & Merkel visit Buchenwald concentration camp: We will do everything we can so that something like this never happens again (5 June 2009)

 http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/obama-merkel-visit-buchenwald-concentration-camp-elie-wiesel-after-touring-concentration-camp/


Netanyahu: We will not allow Holocaust deniers to carry out another Jewish Holocaust (20 April 2009)

 http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/04/21/israeli-prime-minister-we-will-not-allow-holocaust-deniers-to-carry-out-another-jewish-holocaust/


Statements by Obama, Merkel and Brown made during their visits to Israel (March-July 2008)

 http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2008/07/28/quotes-on-iran-by-obama-brown-sarkozy-and-merkel/

_________________________

dandelion salad
- Homepage: http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/08/28/netanyahu-the-lesson-of-the-holocaust-is-that-we-should-nip-threats-to-our-existence-in-the-bud/

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How many babies do you want decimated for that article?

04.10.2009 07:06

And when did Ahmadinejad become the editor of Press TV?

Why do you keep posting links to holocaust denial articles. Are you desperate for people to read them?

Piss off troll

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fill us in

04.10.2009 07:24

Is it Indymedia UK's editorial stance that Ahmadinejad is not a Holocaust denier, or is it Indymedia UK's editorial stance that Holocaust denial is not anti-Semitic?

Or else is it that Indymedia UK can't be bovvered with such sorting such minutiae when there are Jews "zionists" to boo and hiss?

which is it

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Me, me,me.

04.10.2009 07:56

Indymedia is made up of ordinary people.

As far as your question is concerned:-

"Is it Indymedia UK's editorial stance that Ahmadinejad is not a Holocaust denier"

You tell me, did he say this or didn't he. In order to be a holocaust denier you need to have denied the holocaust. Did he say this or not?

And:-

"or is it Indymedia UK's editorial stance that Holocaust denial is not anti-Semitic"

Whats the difference between somebody who actually denies the holocaust and somebody who falsely claims somebody else has denied the holocaust, .

Which of them is anti-semitic?








Who

Ahmadinejad is still a bigoted statist religious scumbag.

04.10.2009 10:51

Irrespective of whether he is anti-semitic or not, Ahmadinejad is still a bigoted statist religious scumbag.

He's a national head of state, for god's sake. All of them deserve to be lined up and shot, just for that!

anon

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A textbook example

04.10.2009 16:53

A perfect demonstration of how Indymedia UK has become utterly morally bankrupt, twisted absolutely inside-out, on the issue of anti-Semitism.

04.10.2009 07:56

Indymedia is made up of ordinary people.

As far as your question is concerned:-

"Is it Indymedia UK's editorial stance that Ahmadinejad is not a Holocaust denier"

You tell me, did he say this or didn't he. In order to be a holocaust denier you need to have denied the holocaust. Did he say this or not?

And:-

"or is it Indymedia UK's editorial stance that Holocaust denial is not anti-Semitic"

Whats the difference between somebody who actually denies the holocaust and somebody who falsely claims somebody else has denied the holocaust, .

Which of them is anti-semitic?

perfect

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please define anti-semetism

04.10.2009 23:53


''Whats the difference between somebody who actually denies the holocaust and somebody who falsely claims somebody else has denied the holocaust, .

Which of them is anti-semitic?''

A person can believe in the holocaust and be anti-semetic.
A person can deny the holocaust and not be anti-semetic.
Somebody who ''falsely'' claims somebody else has denied the holocaust, is by definition, a liar.
Surely, one has to be a semite in the first place to raise the defence of anti-semitism, otherwise it is meaningless. Some question for you perfect, is a Japanese born convert to judaism a semite? If so, are all converts to judaism semites? Where is this definition? There are 25,000 jews living peacefully in Iran. The Palestinians are semites by definition, Ahmadinejad has respect for these people and regards them as friends. Please answer my questions.

ben

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what are you banging on about

05.10.2009 02:12

What? In what hypothetical other-worldly world is Holocaust denial not anti-Semitic?

what?

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what?

05.10.2009 10:50

hello what?, calm down I'm not banging on about anything. Explain your point. To question the holocaust or even deny it, does not mean one is anti-jewish or anti-semite.Name the semetic peoples as Ive asked. The european jews are converts,that does not make them semetic or does it? The holocaust is no justification for the state of israel no matter how much the european jews and zionists want it to be. The meaning of the word semite has changed over the years and some believe it to just mean anti-jew, which I hope you will agree is at least a little dismissive of the various ancient and modern peoples originating in southwestern Asia.The Arabs are semites, the people of Gaza are semites. The israelis are trying to destroy the Gazans and people of the West Bank, therefore I conclude the israeli goverment regime is anti-semetic.I think you will find the israeli/zionist goverment has been playing with peoples minds, feelings and lives for a long time now and in desporation to cling on to their repugnant ideology they have set about implementing a zero tolerance of critism of israel policy,backed by the US.You will find very little support for israel on this site, but you will not be banned or censored for expressing such views. Please engage in dialogue with the contributors as we all have been lied to and have things to learn from each other, thankyou.

ben

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denialists

05.10.2009 12:43

If you're a Holocaust denier, you hate Jews. If you're posting here, you're spreading racist poison and helping discredit the left, like the provocateur Black Block which were egged on by much the same people as encourage this anti-semitic drivel; some agents of the state, some useful idiots, all agent provocateurs.

I repeat - Indymedia is a place for loonspuds and agent provocatuers to spread racist shit about the Jews and encourage people to bring weapons to peaceful demonstrations. This is a cop site run by the cops for the benefit of the cops. A centralised clearing house for disinformation, rumours and outright lies. DON'T TRUST THEM!

Don't forget to add the rider ?c=all to this link to unhide "hidden" (ie censored) posts, and link this page and others everywhere - expose this scum site to the activist community. It's a fucking plant as sure as eggs is eggs.

 http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/10/439130.html?c=all

wwd0
- Homepage: http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/10/439130.html?c=all

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you can't be serious

05.10.2009 14:22

'Explain your point. To question the holocaust or even deny it, does not mean one is anti-jewish or anti-semite.'

Nonsense. Holocaust denial is an inherently anti-Jewish activity by its very nature and by the sad and sordid history of the movement. It exists to minimize the crimes of Adolf Hitler against the Jews of Europe, and to shift as much blame as possible from Hitler onto his Jewish victims. And it has tried for decades to portray itself not as looney Jew-conspiracy crap but 'an alternative perspective on history' - just as the BNP wants to offer us 'an alternative perspective on race.'

Look into it and you'll see. Holocaust denial is a direct product of brownshirt wannabes like Ernst Zündel, who, when he isn't writing about how the Holocaust was wildly exaggerated by the Jews, writes books like one called 'The Hitler We Loved and Why.' His agenda is clear: he wants to exonerate his hero Hitler by saying: well, the Holocaust is mostly a Jew lie.

Holocaust denial has been inextricably linked with the neo-Nazi movement from the day it began, despite the movement's attempt after the David Irving fiasco of 2000 to spread from the far right to the far left by recasting its anti-Semitic lies as 'anti-Zionist.' You can no more have a left-wing acceptance of Holocaust denial than you can have a left-wing acceptance of Adolf Hitler, perpetrator of that Holocaust. And a 'progressive' left that can't tell the difference between criticism of Israel on one hand and pure Jew-hating bollocks like Holocaust denial on the other is a far left that has lost its moral compass. There is nothing 'progressive' about lying about history in order to spiff up Hitler.

To 'denialists' -- no, UK Indymedia is not a cop site. But if it becomes a place where it's perfectly acceptable to say "there is nothing anti-Semitic about saying the Holocaust was really a big Jewish fraud," then it is a site the police don't have to worry about anymore as a potential force for positive social change.

what?

There are wee scumbags and big scumbags

05.10.2009 14:23

"He's a national head of state, for god's sake. All of them deserve to be lined up and shot, just for that! "

If you have the power to line them up and shoot them then you have the power to imprison them or torture them. The only time it is right to shoot them is when you don't have that power. They still have the power and the US has far more power than any other state. Anarchists oppose power structures and the overwhelming military power in the world resides in the Whitehouse. While the Whitehouse is attacking anyone you have to be wary of agreeing with it in case you are supporting another Iraqi level of genocide and war crimes against another innocent people.

Danny

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simple

05.10.2009 15:25

'To question the holocaust or even deny it, does not mean one is anti-jewish or anti-semite.'

Is that so? Please give a plausible way to explain 'the world has been fooled into believing the Holocaust happened' that does not involve the secret and criminal collusion of literally millions of Jews in a vast and centrally directed programme of intentional criminial deceit -- the very stuff of anti-Semitic raving since the day 'Protocols of the Elders' was written.

Holocaust denial is flatly impossible without a basis in Jewish-conspiracy mongering.

simple as a b c

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smear attempt?

05.10.2009 23:21

"But if it becomes a place where it's perfectly acceptable to say "'here is nothing anti-Semitic about saying the Holocaust was really a big Jewish fraud," then it is a site the police don't have to worry about anymore as a potential force for positive social change.'"

Can you back that up by pointing to a policy that says such statements are OK on this site? Or how about providing a link to an unhidden post or comment that makes such a claim? Otherwise people might get the idea that you were just trying to smear IMCUK because they don't let you call the shots on their editorial decisions.

huh?

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please answer my questions

06.10.2009 00:07

hello simple as, I do understand where you're coming from, and yes it does seem ridiculous to question the holocaust with all the photographs,films and testamonies available.To answer your question I can only draw from my own experience growing up in a western country and the depiction of the native american. Bomdarded with propaganda in films, books and drawings about ''the savage'', scalping,raping, stealing and generally being a total shit,you grow up believing a warped history. Not until many years later do you realise the real truth about a group of peoples who had/have many fine qualities, well surpassing your own cultures. This said propaganda has been refined and repeated many times over Vietnam,Korea,Australia,South Africa etc etc. The holocaust museum in New York now says there were no skin lampshades or soap, or shrunken heads. How much else is propaganda? To say this, is not denial but fact. I grew up with the images of horror from the camps,like many others,but now as an adult Iiving in this world of lies and hate I tend to question all things. I do not deny the suffering of the war victims but I do question the history propaganda. Remember we're in Iraq today on hate and lies, perpetrating the same horror on innocents, maybe Iran tomorrow. Israel is carrying out the same atrocities on the palestinians as the fascist regime in Germany did . You may find that hard to take, I don't know you but you sound passionate, I hope your passion is for love and not for the hate our puppet masters try to guide our thoughts and actions with. Why is the holocaust the only historical subject that cannot, by law, be questioned - please answer. thankyou









ben

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forget it ben

06.10.2009 02:04

Nah, Ben. You had your chance to do something to show you weren't just one more Holocaust denier repeating all the old talking points while pretending to be a 'progressive' and you failed.

Indymedia UK, you might as well accept it. Until you get your head on straight when it comes to antisemitism, and yes that means you ftp, Holocaust deniers like Ben are your future, and your site is going to stink with the stench of those who think the Nazis got a bad rap.

When is the penny finally going to drop?

what?

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it's right in front of you

06.10.2009 02:08

'Can you back that up by pointing to a policy that says such statements are OK on this site?'

It's what ben is saying, and there's nothing about his posts being hidden, so they must be okay.

Maybe an editor might want to ask ben to answer where all those Jews went if they didn't go up the chimney. That's what a responsible editor would do. But Indymedia editors -- that's a different story.

look

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Nope

06.10.2009 02:36

"It's what ben is saying, and there's nothing about his posts being hidden, so they must be okay. "

Nope, as poorly worded as ben's posts were, the "big Jewish fraud" was YOUR phrase, not his. Try again.

nope

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same question to you, nope

06.10.2009 03:05

Try to explain how the Holocaust could have been a fraud without millions of Jews being in on the collusion.

Go ahead. Start now. Here, I'll begin it for you. "You don't need to have the collusion of millions of not-really-dead-after-all Jews in faking the Holocaust because..."

same question

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I don't think so

06.10.2009 04:24

"Try to explain how the Holocaust could have been a fraud without millions of Jews being in on the collusion.

Go ahead. Start now. Here, I'll begin it for you. 'You don't need to have the collusion of millions of not-really-dead-after-all Jews in faking the Holocaust because...'"

So you'll start by trying to put words in my mouth instead? No wonder people have so little respect for you.

As it happens, I've never claimed that the Holocaust was a fraud, and have spent quite a bit of time studying it. Please take your slimy smear tactics elsewhere.

nope

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you couldn't

06.10.2009 04:41

Let's add it up. This guy ben thinks you can be a Holocaust denier without being an anti-Semite. For the Holocaust to be a fraud, though, you have to either (a) decide that it was necessary for millions of Jews to pretend they weren't dead, or (b) decide it wasn't necessary for millions of Jews to pretend they were dead because of ... well, that's what I was asking you. I was giving you chance to prove ben right by coming up with some not-anti-Semitic explanation for the disappearance of millions upon millions of Jews. You couldn't.

So either you believe ben is wrong, and that you can't be a Holocaust denier without embracing absurdly huge international Jewish conspiracies after all, conspiracies so big you'd have to be an anti-Semite to swallow them, or else you think he's right, and it's actually not anti-Semitic to claim that millions upon millions of Jews collaborated secretly to execute off the greatest crime in history, as they were presumably guided in their secret Jew meetings.

as I thought

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False dichotomy

06.10.2009 06:02

"So either you believe ben is wrong, and that you can't be a Holocaust denier without embracing absurdly huge international Jewish conspiracies after all, conspiracies so big you'd have to be an anti-Semite to swallow them, or else you think he's right, and it's actually not anti-Semitic to claim that millions upon millions of Jews collaborated secretly to execute off the greatest crime in history, as they were presumably guided in their secret Jew meetings."

Yet another false dichotomy. Ben appeared to be saying that we've been told so many things that turned out to be wrong that he was confused about what, if anything, he could believe. He could certainly stand to read some history books by reputable authors, but he did not at any point claim that the Holocaust was a Jewish conspiracy.

nope

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think it through

06.10.2009 06:39

He's presenting, as if it were actually a possibility, the alternative that the Holocaust isn't what "they" tell you it was, that maybe something very substantial at its center has been lied about. Now, what do you imagine he thinks that means, that it actually took place in Arkansas?

You can't have Holocaust denial without anti-Semitism, and he's presenting Holocaust denial as if it's at very worst an honest and legitimate possibility. It's like saying, "we have to be prepared to honestly deal with the possibility that Nick Griffin is right and non-whites are just simply genetically inferior -- but don't call me a bigot for saying that, because I only said there was a *possibility* that was true."

It's really not complicated at all.

If you don't accept the bollox "I'm not saying blacks are inferior, I'm only saying we should consider as legitimate the *possibility* that blacks are inferior", then you shouldn't accept the bollox "I'm not saying that the Holocaust is a lie, I'm only saying we should consider as legitimate the *possibility* that the Holocaust is a lie."

think it through

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But Ben also said.....

06.10.2009 07:11

...that you can deny the holocaust and not be anti-semite, and, as been pointed out, this is clearly nonsense.

Holocaust denial has as its basis the underlying assumption that thousands of Jews lied about their experiences in Nazi concentration camps. It also hand waves away the millions of Jewish dead which is clearly documented by comparing pre and post war censuses across Europe and the Sovet Union. Holcaust deniers (or their 'minimiser' leftist apologists) offer no explanation where any of these millions ever disappeared to, but simply likes to focus on what it sees as discrepancies in individual survivor accounts to suddenly claim that the whole thing was a Jewish conspiracy used to extract reparations from Germany after the war. The fact is, Holcaust deniers have even got this wrong as reparations were based on resettling known survivors and not, as deniers seem to beleive, as compensation for the dead. (If holocaust deniers are not anti-semitic why do they use this ill informed argument that the death toll was exaggerated to maximise the amount paid - it is based on the inescapably antisemitic argument that Jews are out for what they can get)

At its heart also is the unspoken belief that all University teaching on the Holocaust for the past 60 odd years has been controlled by some sort of jewish conspiracy to control information about the holocaust, that hundreds of thousands of PHD scholars that have set foot in historical archives in the decades since the second world war have all been duped by the Jews or are being paid off by the Jews. Only a handful on internet warriors and Hilter apologists have apparently got it right (by conveniently ignoring or handwaving away the shedloads of converging testimony and evidence which does point to the reality of the holocaust). By claiming that there has been in the past wartime propoganda and ill-informed opinions about the holocaust does not undermine the reality of the holocaust itself. The Holocaust does not reside in a 'single fact' but in the convergence of thousands upon thousands of individual documents as well as accounts by survivors and by the Nazi's themselves.

In short, there is no way on earth you can be a holocaust denier and not an anti-semite. Anti semitic opinions form the core of the whole argument and cannto be separated out. There is no 'progressive' version of Holcaust denial. And, arguments about who are and are not 'semitic' peoples is a red herring. The commonly accepted definition for anti-semitism is a dislike and or hatred of jews and their religion/culture and holcaust denial is clearly steeped in anti-semitism.

Just my two penneth

Passing Through Historian

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thanks nope

06.10.2009 15:17

thanks Nope for speaking up for me, what you said was what I was trying to say. I do not deny the millions of jews who died in the war. I show and give support to the Palestinians in todays conflict. Could you recommend a book or two on history by a reputable author like you mentioned. thankyou

ben

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good cartoon

06.10.2009 15:24

like the analogy

ben

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trying again

06.10.2009 16:11

'I do not deny the millions of jews who died in the war.'

Can you give us any possible theory on how the Holocaust could be a hoax *without* requiring that millions of Jews colluding in a lie?

Please do. No one else seems to be able to, perhaps you can.

more nonsense from ben

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oops! wrong post

06.10.2009 16:35

sorry about that peeps,was meant for Latuff

ben

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thanks nope

06.10.2009 18:00

thanks nope for speaking up for me, I appeciate it. You said it better,what I wrote was not very clear. I do not deny the millions of jews that died in the war. Could you recommend one or two history books from reputable authors like you said so I can get some proper truth? thankyou ben

ben

@Danny

07.10.2009 21:44

I agree with you that paradoxically no-one should have the power to line them up and shoot them, but they still deserve it! And I do agree the US establishment are bigger and more powerful scumbags. But we have to beware thinking our enemy's enemy is our friend. We should oppose all hierarchies of oppression, small and large.

anon

point of intervention?

07.10.2009 21:52

"we have to beware thinking our enemy's enemy is our friend"

And who do you think will be dying in the war that this somewhat familiar propaganda drive is promoting? People who certainly aren't our enemies is my guess.

Why demonise this leader in particlar? Theres no shortage of nasty bastards out there - is there?

nonA

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we need a leader

08.10.2009 20:56

You're right, we need a strong leader, who will stand up to US imperialism and Zionism. Someone who will unite us all behind the banner of a United People, who will give us Strength and Victor and finally solve the Zionist problem!

Mahmoud Achmedinejad may well be just such a strong and powerful leader that we can all get behind in our quest to defeat US imperialism. So what if he hangs people for having sex and crushes so-called peaceful demonstrations (which were all started by the CIA anyway)?

We all know that "democracy" has failed and we need strong leadership! I say - YES to Mahmoud Achmedinejad and the true demorcacy of Iran. I wonder if one could emigrate their and help them directly?

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