Middle Class Concentration Climate Camp: Some thoughts
Max Holz | 01.09.2009 12:39 | Climate Chaos | Social Struggles | Workers' Movements | World
I went to two mass events last week, Climate Camp on Blackheath and Carnival in Notting Hill. If you want to see diverse then Carnival is where it's at. Not only is it made up of the funny-sounding 'normal' people having a great time together but you get the sense that these people are also a bit more (funny sounding again) 'real' and unselfconscious than the people I found at Climate Camp.
Carnival 2009
Climate Camp 2009
The first thing I saw at Climate Camp was a list of rules on the way in including the classic alienators - vegan, no sexist and no racist language. So to start with you have a new society set up with a list of regulations, insider knowledge and prescriptions. Of course, no one would welcome racists or patriarchs inside the camp but that's a matter for the community inside to figure out solutions too as we do in our everyday lives. It's indicative of the activist mindset and false notion of togetherness to have to put this up as a rule and begin with. It's no guarantee that those inside are free of sexism and racism anyway and who needs these artificial boundaries if we are to make a new world together where racists and sexists are challenged and might begin to understand the ignorance and abuse that they pursue?
As for making the camp vegan, that's pure activist scenesterism. It's fine to try to show people alternatives (as the camp tries to do) but how will most people react to this rule? Most non-activists people I spoke to about this couldn't believe it. Anti-capitalism is the realm of anyone interested in honest and genuine discussion to make amazing things happen and to change the world but it cannot begin with rules that act as answers before anyone has even asked some questions.
As for the class composition of the camp there's no point in trying to portray it as a diverse crowd. It's simply not. Apart from a few working class people who have been in the activist scene for ages (and who are mainly wary of media attention unlike the more middle class ones who trust the media to get their message out), it's rare that working class people get involved in this kind of activism and I doubt that the middle class concerns and behaviour at Climate Camp will be bringing them in.
It's not that working people are the true salt-of-the-earth politically vibrant class. Of course not but they are the ones who will ultimately make the difference between a mistrusted self-conscious role-playing activism and a genuine anti-capitalist movement that puts a blockage on the functioning of the economy, occupies, expropriates and begins to run the new society. This will never be the product of middle-class activism with it's fetish for veganism, politeness and non-coercion and sometimes a pointless pacifism that denies a revolutionary violence (all the time whilst supporting violent revolutionary struggles abroad - Oaxaca, West Papua, Nigeria for example)
Questions about wage slavery, labour, the family, private property, class struggle and solidarity have not gone away even if the last vital period of upheaval and real anti-capitalist resistance was the 1970's and early 80's. It's these questions that need to sit aside climate change politics so that some kind of movement that has an everyday relevance to non-activist (i.e most people) can bring itself into being. There seems to be the notion around some Camp attendees that 'class analysis is so 20th Century' as if this allows middle-class people off the hook when having to face up to their own economic position in this society. Well, most people in the world aren't well-off. They don't have the luxury of giving up struggling to get by if they fancy it and want to use their self-confident bourgeois manner to now get a good job. Their concerns are daily bread ones and not an often abstract climate change politics.
Who would want to be a self-defined revolutionary these days when this position seems to mark you out as deluded Citizen Smith-type cliche? Worse, from your own side, are some Climate Camp people's definition of 'hater' for those who hatred of capitalism is pasionate. This hatred also finds an enemy in those who want to appease capitalism for whatever perverse reasoning. Hence, we live in the most reactionary of times where genuine radical ideas are not the common questions of the day. You can see this played out at Climate Camp when radicals talk of the deathwish of relying on reforming The State or big business to implement any measures that will tackle climate change.
So many people at Climate Camp still believe that 'we are The State' and it can work for us. If this is the case then why is Climate Camp non-hierarchical and committed to some kind of direct action? If this is the case then why are we in the mess we are in today? It's not because the will of the people wanted to have to work all day in an alienating mass of social relations boosting the wealth of a small population of rich people AND also watch the climate go ballistic as a result and wipe us all out.
But revolutionary ideas are the only ones that will connect with those who can make a difference. At the Camp I've heard many people talk about 'bottom-up' organising and then go on to wonder they those at the bottom can really be trusted to make the right decisions. This classist position assumes that a feelgood middle class jamboree of moral worthness, alleged self-sustainability and polite discussion with it's hand-signal nicities is the active movement of change itself without needing to actually involve the ones who maybe don't 'get it' or who are right now either mistrustful and put off Climate camp or just plain antagonistic to it. The middle classes have never made a revolution that wasn't made in it's own narrow self-interest. As someone said at the Camp - meet the new Green boss, same as then old one.
This isn't either about educating the masses as some of the Climate Camp attendees seem to think. That kind of patronising zeal will hardly go down well with anyone Climate Camp comes across to 'enlighten'. This is the kind of message the media-friendly camp comes across as. Live by the media, die by the media - that's a wise a message as any which has not been learned by Jordan, Posh Spice or Climate Camp.
It's the ensemble of social relations that make a movement dynamic and going somewhere. When I was at Carnival I felt this dynamic at work. There are many, many problems at Carnival (from police repression to individuals acting act, fronting and playing the most parasitic of neo-liberal roles against others). But Carnival is still an expression of life and will of togetherness that for a moment transcends the mediocre existence we are supposed to impose upon ourselves day after day. The way to be and behave at Carnival is made and enacted by all and these come from common sense and not a list posted at the entrance point. I have more hope for the future from being around a million people in Notting Hill than I do being around 2000 people on Blackheath who seemingly want to make a future world based on moralistic austerity and limits on freedoms that's premised on a hybrid of green and reformed capitalism.
My revolution wants to free up the world by taking back the land, resources, technology and providing for all instead of just a few like now. This is not a revolution for all to then consume the world to death but a revolution that is based on common-sense abundance and not austerity.
As for making the camp vegan, that's pure activist scenesterism. It's fine to try to show people alternatives (as the camp tries to do) but how will most people react to this rule? Most non-activists people I spoke to about this couldn't believe it. Anti-capitalism is the realm of anyone interested in honest and genuine discussion to make amazing things happen and to change the world but it cannot begin with rules that act as answers before anyone has even asked some questions.
As for the class composition of the camp there's no point in trying to portray it as a diverse crowd. It's simply not. Apart from a few working class people who have been in the activist scene for ages (and who are mainly wary of media attention unlike the more middle class ones who trust the media to get their message out), it's rare that working class people get involved in this kind of activism and I doubt that the middle class concerns and behaviour at Climate Camp will be bringing them in.
It's not that working people are the true salt-of-the-earth politically vibrant class. Of course not but they are the ones who will ultimately make the difference between a mistrusted self-conscious role-playing activism and a genuine anti-capitalist movement that puts a blockage on the functioning of the economy, occupies, expropriates and begins to run the new society. This will never be the product of middle-class activism with it's fetish for veganism, politeness and non-coercion and sometimes a pointless pacifism that denies a revolutionary violence (all the time whilst supporting violent revolutionary struggles abroad - Oaxaca, West Papua, Nigeria for example)
Questions about wage slavery, labour, the family, private property, class struggle and solidarity have not gone away even if the last vital period of upheaval and real anti-capitalist resistance was the 1970's and early 80's. It's these questions that need to sit aside climate change politics so that some kind of movement that has an everyday relevance to non-activist (i.e most people) can bring itself into being. There seems to be the notion around some Camp attendees that 'class analysis is so 20th Century' as if this allows middle-class people off the hook when having to face up to their own economic position in this society. Well, most people in the world aren't well-off. They don't have the luxury of giving up struggling to get by if they fancy it and want to use their self-confident bourgeois manner to now get a good job. Their concerns are daily bread ones and not an often abstract climate change politics.
Who would want to be a self-defined revolutionary these days when this position seems to mark you out as deluded Citizen Smith-type cliche? Worse, from your own side, are some Climate Camp people's definition of 'hater' for those who hatred of capitalism is pasionate. This hatred also finds an enemy in those who want to appease capitalism for whatever perverse reasoning. Hence, we live in the most reactionary of times where genuine radical ideas are not the common questions of the day. You can see this played out at Climate Camp when radicals talk of the deathwish of relying on reforming The State or big business to implement any measures that will tackle climate change.
So many people at Climate Camp still believe that 'we are The State' and it can work for us. If this is the case then why is Climate Camp non-hierarchical and committed to some kind of direct action? If this is the case then why are we in the mess we are in today? It's not because the will of the people wanted to have to work all day in an alienating mass of social relations boosting the wealth of a small population of rich people AND also watch the climate go ballistic as a result and wipe us all out.
But revolutionary ideas are the only ones that will connect with those who can make a difference. At the Camp I've heard many people talk about 'bottom-up' organising and then go on to wonder they those at the bottom can really be trusted to make the right decisions. This classist position assumes that a feelgood middle class jamboree of moral worthness, alleged self-sustainability and polite discussion with it's hand-signal nicities is the active movement of change itself without needing to actually involve the ones who maybe don't 'get it' or who are right now either mistrustful and put off Climate camp or just plain antagonistic to it. The middle classes have never made a revolution that wasn't made in it's own narrow self-interest. As someone said at the Camp - meet the new Green boss, same as then old one.
This isn't either about educating the masses as some of the Climate Camp attendees seem to think. That kind of patronising zeal will hardly go down well with anyone Climate Camp comes across to 'enlighten'. This is the kind of message the media-friendly camp comes across as. Live by the media, die by the media - that's a wise a message as any which has not been learned by Jordan, Posh Spice or Climate Camp.
It's the ensemble of social relations that make a movement dynamic and going somewhere. When I was at Carnival I felt this dynamic at work. There are many, many problems at Carnival (from police repression to individuals acting act, fronting and playing the most parasitic of neo-liberal roles against others). But Carnival is still an expression of life and will of togetherness that for a moment transcends the mediocre existence we are supposed to impose upon ourselves day after day. The way to be and behave at Carnival is made and enacted by all and these come from common sense and not a list posted at the entrance point. I have more hope for the future from being around a million people in Notting Hill than I do being around 2000 people on Blackheath who seemingly want to make a future world based on moralistic austerity and limits on freedoms that's premised on a hybrid of green and reformed capitalism.
My revolution wants to free up the world by taking back the land, resources, technology and providing for all instead of just a few like now. This is not a revolution for all to then consume the world to death but a revolution that is based on common-sense abundance and not austerity.
Max Holz
Comments
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Take back the Land!
01.09.2009 13:09
For planning advice: www.tlio.org.uk/chapter7
dig 4 victory
Twat
01.09.2009 13:10
You are the privileged elite that will never be affected by any problem but want to play at being establishment-friendly 'activists' to boost your own social life. As for this complete nonsense about you not being an upper-class group, no one is buying that as Dail Mail propaganda, we can tell from your spokespeople and founders. The best thing you could do to cut emissions is to kill your rich mommys and daddys.
You have zero chance of setting up a permanent camp in the UK so why not all fuck off to some threatened Pacific Island, thus freeing up some space in the UK for those residents to move here?
Danny
Typical middle class bollocks as per
01.09.2009 13:13
The notting hill carnival is just as regulated and mediated, with just as many middle class people in attendance as climate camp.
You silly "vibrant" fuck.
gluee sniffer
Gluey Sniffer
01.09.2009 13:28
By the way, I'm hardly middle class as you suggest. If I was then writing what I wrote would be kind of foolish. That can't be hard to work out.
Max Holz
We are in middle of a big recession, so why criticise those who can
01.09.2009 13:32
people do what they can, stop wringing your hands.
The camp has had a lot of promotion by the gaurdian & hardly any other major news outlet in time before the camp.
Well done climate campers, though to the twat who apparently told a bloke in a merc we arent all sponging gypsies, I hope you get smacked by some of the hard working gypsies on site.
james
as per usual
01.09.2009 13:51
ivica
How do you handle “militant” vegans?
01.09.2009 14:00
I realize this is a relatively small group of people, but I’ve seen it happen a few times and it usually makes me cringe in embarrassment. Unfortunately, every so often when I tell someone I’m a vegetarian (I usually don’t say “vegan” in general company just in passing anymore because too many people are unfamiliar with the term and at least once in the past have thought it means I’m part of a peculiar religious sect), they’re afraid I’m going to start to lecture them on the evils of meat eating right there on the spot.
That’s too bad, not just because I think it’s unfair to them, but because I think it makes it harder to connect and work together to make some positive changes happen that could help us both.
For instance, current commercial meat production practices are both inhumane and hard on the environment. Now, I don’t think meat production should or even can go away entirely. We depend on it too much; I might even say we need it for various reasons, as I’ve said before. It does need to change both because humane food production practices are both kinder to the animals in question *and* gentler to the environment, but just how will embarrassing someone over his porterhouse and baked potato persuade him of this fact?
The current system is entrenched and will need to change slowly over time, with education. And when we do make that shift, we also have to make sure that those who raise the animals for food are fairly compensated. Right now, the system is based on cheap volume-based mass production. To make that feasible and still marginally profitable, many resort to the inhumane but cost-effective methods that are currently in place. If vegans and vegetarians can take a stand and make it clear we have no intention of trying to “convert” those who aren’t, we’d be much more likely to have a meaningful conversation about these truly important changes with them.
vegan
The Vegan Police
01.09.2009 14:01
The Vegan Police is a phrase that I have heard thrown about for the last few years, usually used to criticize those that make others feel bad for not living a life that is as cruelty-free as possible. While taking a workshop from Rae Sikora of AAVS, I recall feeling alienated when she spoke of the "little Gandhis" within the animal rights movement who think that they alone have truly found ahimsa by practicing a vegan lifestyle. As several of us stood on a spectrum indicating our consumption patterns from carnivore to vegan, one who rides a bike or drives a car, recycles scrap paper and uses cloth shopping bags to those that eat vegetarian when it is convenient, I remember questioning why I should feel guilty for trying to live as pure of a life as possible. Then I remembered attending a vegan potluck dinner one time where I felt completely ostracized because a woman that I was with had brought cookies to the gathering that contained refined sugar. At that time I had never heard of the processing involved in refining or pasteurization and frankly felt like a completely incompetent activist even though I had spent several years organizing a college animal rights group and participating in demonstrations.
Since then I have found myself on both ends of the vegan police scheme. I have ridiculed people for not being vegan and I have been ridiculed for not being vegan enough. To tell you the truth, neither position feels very good. Sure, when I'm doing the accusing I get the rush of superiority but that soon subsides to the feeling of regret as I alienate yet another one of my fellow activists. It goes without saying that being accused of contributing to the culture of animal exploitation is not exactly a vacation, particularly when those judging you are people you admire or are friends with.
Therefore, I want to suggest that we consider carefully how we address the actions of each other. None of us are capable of living a completely vegan life, in order to survive we need to breathe and in order to breathe we must consume organisms. Granted, this may be over-simplifying things but, hopefully, you get my point. As Don Barnes from NAVS states in his paper, The Dangers of Elitism, "The Vegan Police do more harm than good, for they seek to shame rather than inspire, to coerce rather than convince and to mock rather than act as a model for others". I do not entirely agree with Don, in that I don't think the intentions of those deputies in the vegan police are always to shame, coerce and mock. Mostly, I think it is outrage that causes activists to ridicule the actions of others. I certainly can appreciate that a grassroots activist, who lives in a shabby house and rides public transportation in order to allow time to work for animal liberation, is frustrated to hear when mainstream activists, who are paid to work full time for an animal rights organization, are not vegan. Does their outrage warrant criticizing the other activist? No. Is their outcry effective in changing the other activist's behavior? Probably not. But by the same means, what is the "Reverse Vegan Police" (those who criticize vegan activists for being too uptight and overly proud of their actions) accomplishing by returning the ridicule? Again, nothing productive.
We could all improve our lifestyles in consideration of the suffering of others. Even the most extreme vegans I know are still contributing to the suffering of animals by driving cars, using paper with dioxins that pollute the water, living in houses made of wood from trees that were once homes to wildlife. When feeling superior to the rest of your fellow activists, consider how an activist from a different social cause would evaluate your consumption habits... Do you buy products from mainstream companies that have poor labor practices? Do you only buy 100% post-consumer recycled paper? Do you recycle every item of trash? Do you live completely off the grid?
My point is that none of us are perfect. We could all improve our lifestyles, certainly some more than others, but all of us nonetheless. I don't think we should use the vegan police as a way to make ourselves feel superior to others. Rather, I would suggest that we empower ourselves and each other by educating one another about the cruelty and wastefulness that we are educated about and ask others to educate us about things they have knowledge of. In the same manner, I don't think we should use the vegan police as an excuse to not address our lifestyles or consider how our actions effect all of those that share this planet with us. We should all strive to be as vegan as possible and we should all work to encourage others to be vegan as well.
At that same workshop with Rae Sikora, I remember learning that people don't learn when they feel attacked - if anything, they hold tighter to their convictions. This could work two ways in reference to the vegan police issue: activists that aren't vegan will never open themselves up to the option of becoming vegans because they do not feel any sense of camaraderie with those that are. Additionally, those that are vegans who are ridiculed for their dedication and so-called fanaticism will remain steadfast and reluctant to empower others.
Don't fall into the trap of the vegan police - empower yourselves and those that need empowering. Being vegan should include compassion to human animals as well as non-human animals.
Elaine Budlong
Animal Rights is a bigger issue
01.09.2009 14:06
LS
vegan police
01.09.2009 14:13
confused
Less we forget
01.09.2009 14:13
Donald Currie, TN4593
HMP Parkhurst
Clissold Road
Newport
Isle of Wight
PO30 5NX
ENGLAND
Status: Sentenced on December 7, 2006 to 12 years on arson charges after pleading guilty to three actions claimed by the A.L.F. in relation to the HLS campaign. The father of three was arrested in March after two homemade bombs were found by police underneath a car belonging to Roland Brooks at his Caversham home. Don Currie had earlier pleaded guilty at Reading Crown Court in August to arson charges and to possessing fire bombs. Birthday: April 13th. What you can send: Envelopes, writing paper, photos.
Jon Ablewhite, TB4885
HMP Lowdham Grange
Lowdham, Nottingham NG14 7DA
ENGLAND
Status: Sentenced to 12 years in prison on attempted blackmail charges in relation to the Save the Newchurch Guinea Pigs Campaign. The Judge's indication of 12 years was based upon information presented to him by the police and the CPS only. This was given in the form of a case summary and a "schedule" of events - a chronological diary of every 'criminal' action beginning with the 1999 liberation. It is clear how Judge Pert had absolutely no interest in reality. All credit and all mitigation was ignored. The fact the defendants categorically stated they had any involvement in the grave desecration was ignored. Birthday: January 27th. What you can send: Can not receive writing paper or packs of envelopes
Kerry Whitburn, TB4886
HMP Lowdham Grange
Lowdham, Nottingham NG14 7DA
ENGLAND
Status: Sentenced to 12 years in prison on attempted blackmail charges in relation to the Save the Newchurch Guinea Pigs Campaign. The Judge's indication of 12 years was based upon information presented to him by the police and the CPS only. This was given in the form of a case summary and a "schedule" of events - a chronological diary of every 'criminal' action beginning with the 1999 liberation. It is clear how Judge Pert had absolutely no interest in reality. All credit and all mitigation was ignored. The fact the defendants categorically stated they had any involvement in the grave desecration was ignored. Birthday: April 18th. What you can send: Can not receive writing paper or packs of envelopes
Sean Kirtley, WC6977
HMP Stafford
54 Gaol Rd
Stafford, ST16 3AW
ENGLAND
Status: Following a lengthy police investigation and an 18-week trial costing over £4.5 million, the operator of a website criticising animal testing company Sequani, has been jailed for four and a half years for organising a legal protest. Sean Kirtley was found guilty under Section 145 of the SOCPA law for “Interfering with the contractual relationships of a Laboratory” for allegedly organising protests at Sequani Limited and associated business associates. Police say disorder took place on a occasions during protests and claim as the organiser that Sean is responsible for any criminality that takes place.
Sarah Whitehead, VM7684)
HMP Bronzefield
Woodthorpe Road
Ashford, Middx TW15 3JZ
ENGLAND
Status: Sarah Whitehead was sentenced on the June 30th 2008 to fifteen months for removing a beagle which was kept muzzled in a wooden cage in a garden and which an eye witness informed Sarah was also being regularly beaten by its owner. The RSPCA had been called numerous times, but had failed to intervene to save the dog so Sarah was left with no choice but to act to save the dog herself. Unfortunately, she was already under police surveillance due to her involvement in the campaign against Huntingdon Life Sciences and.
Luke Steele, WJ4308
HMP Lincoln
Greetwell Road
LN2 4BD
ENGLAND
Status: Arrested along with Dean Cain and two other activists in October 2008. Steele and Cain were denied bail and remanded into custody. They are now awaiting trial scheduled for December 19 2008. The defendants are reportedly being charged on "Serious Organized Crime and Police Act" (SOCPA) and Criminal Damage charges related to an alleged raid on Highgate Farm - a farm known to supply rabbits for experiments at Huntingdon Life Sciences (HLS).
Heather Nicholson #VM4859
HMP Bronzefield
Woodthorpe Road
Ashford, Middx TW15 3JZ
ENGLAND
Status: Heather was arrested and remanded into custody on May 1st 2007 along with Natasha and Greg Avery after 32 separate police raids, involving 700 police officers in the UK, The Netherlands and Belgium. They have been charged with "conspiracy to blackmail" Huntingdon Life Sciences (HLS) along with a nine other defendents. Birthday: January 30th.
Dean Cain, WJ4309
HMP Lincoln
Greetwell Road
LN2 4BD
ENGLAND
Status: Arrested along with Luke Steele and two other activists in October 2008. Steele and Cain were denied bail and remanded into custody. They are now awaiting trial scheduled for December 19 2008. The defendants are reportedly being charged on "Serious Organized Crime and Police Act" (SOCPA) and Criminal Damage charges related to an alleged raid on Highgate Farm - a farm known to supply rabbits for experiments at Huntingdon Life Sciences (HLS).
Mel Broughton, TN9138
HMP Woodhill
Tattenhoe Street
Milton Keynes
Bucks MK4 4DA
ENGLAND
Status: Mel remanded on 14 Dec 2007 at Banbury Magistrates' Court in connection with alleged offences relating to the SPEAK campaign. Birthday: July 5.
Dan Amos, VN7818
HMP Winchesterr
Romsey Road
Winchester S022 5DF
ENGLAND
Status: Dan Amos was remanded on 30 July 2008 on charges in connection to Huntingdon Life Sciences. Birthday: 19 November
Gregg Avery #TA7450
HMP Winchester
Romsey Road
Winchester, SO22 5DF
ENGLAND
Status: Gregg and Natasha Avery were arrested on May 1, 2007 along with Heather Nicholson after 32 separate police raids, involving 700 police officers in the UK, The Netherlands and Belgium. All have been charged with "conspiracy to blackmail," in relation to the campaign against Huntingdon Life Sciences (HLS). Birthday: December 5th.
Natasha Avery #VM4846
HMP Bronzefield
Woodthorpe Road
Ashford, Middx TW15 3JZ
ENGLAND
Status: Gregg and Natasha Avery were arrested on May 1, 2007 along with Heather Nicholson after 32 separate police raids, involving 700 police officers in the UK, The Netherlands and Belgium. All have been charged with "conspiracy to blackmail," in relation to the campaign against Huntingdon Life Sciences (HLS). Birthday: December 28th.
SHAC
Yeay, ivica
01.09.2009 14:20
What really differentiates people is whether they have made a killing out of this mess, or not. But yeah, shred the nearest available target and let the real criminals get away, why not? And if the "target" doesn't make fucking sense, so much the better. "All these middleclass people on my side? They're the enemy!".
I am the devil and my work is done. Divide and rule. I thank you
T
Sphincter Police
01.09.2009 14:27
The disorder can manifest in many forms, including:
Fundamentalists who want you to live like them
Scientists who can't see beyond their noses, where they have the words tattooed; peer-reviewed, double blind, randomized study.
Vegan police, who tell you how you should eat.
Neighborhood fascists who tell you what color to paint your house.
Culture nazis who try to tell you what art you like and which is appropriate.
Teachers and administrators who force kids who don't sit like zombies to be on Ritalin.
Dress code sphincter police.
Neat nuts who clean ashtrays with each flick of the ash (I don't smoke, but they are out there.)
Diagnosis polluters who label and diagnose just about everything and everyone.
The idea of a sphincter police disorder diagnosis is a JOKE! But the truth that there are plenty of these people out there will be proven if this website leads to wider use of the term Sphincter police. At the time I registered the domain name, there were about 5 or six Web sites found by google and altavista that even mentioned the term. By the time I created this website, there were about 10 or 12, though these included several links to listserves where I've mentioned the concept, usually in referring to reductionist scientists who can't see the forest for the trees.
Now, you may think these people are assholes, but actually, to be precise, it would be better to call them tight-asses, since, it is better if the diagnostic category of asshole should be left available to those who are really the opposite of sphincter police-- flaming assholes. Of course, it may be possible to be afflicted by both.
This website is for those of us who are tired of the sphincter police, tired of being told how to live, see, think, believe, work, dress, pray, etc. One goal of the website is to establish the concept of the sphincter police, so, when someone is told,
"Yo, what are you, a member of the sphincter police?" (hey, I was born in Philly, like Rocky!)
Or, "Back, off. You're acting like a sphincter cop!"
Then the person will know what you are talking about.
I hope that we will receive essays, anecdotes, examples of and about sphincter police, and how they were handled. And we'd love to add appropriate links, both serious and irreverent. This is NOT intended to be a site just for adults. No porno, no language any worse than ass and shit will be tolerated.
About Sphincters:
Sphincters are round muscles that shut or open things, like - eyes, mouth, anus, bladder.
Encyclopedia Britannica.com describes a sphincter as "any of the ringlike muscles surrounding and able to contract or close a bodily passage or opening."
Dr. George Von Hilsheimer supplied this definiton from Blakiston Medical Dictionary:
"A muscle surrounding and closing an orifice."
Next, the fun part-- sphincter metaphors. Stop reading here if you are uncomfortable with gutter language. Because I am exploring the phrases which have developed in our language related to sphincters, such as:
for the rectum: asshole, tight assed, full of shit,
for the bladder: pissed off
for the eyes: short sighted, narrow vision,
for the mouth: stiff upper lip, closed mouthed, puckered
for the stomach: spewing, stuffed shirt,
for the diaphragm: full of hot air
To be fair, I am looking at this issue through the visual sphincters of a liberal. I'd also be interested in the way a conservative would see it through his or her more disciplined, and tightly controlled sphincters. For example, someone with less control might be considered half assed.
Here are some more words used to describe people who tend to be sphincter police:
Short-sighted
Blind
Myopic
Tight-lipped
Tightly wrapped
Narrow-minded
Closed-minded
Small-brained
Anal
Tightass
Butt head Extemist
Rigid
Strict
Stiff
Prude
Censor
Right wing
Self-reighteous
Carrie Nation
Orthodox
eggbound Stiff-necked
Authoritarian
Conservative
Liberal
Gossip
Righ
Bluenose?
Suffragette
Stickler
By-the-book
Inflexible Disciplined
Uptight
Priss
Prig
Rigorous
Tightwad
Proper
Correct
God-fearing
Scientific/empirical, double blind
Disciplinarian
A quotation which could be the Sphincter police motto:
Wheresoever thou findest Disorder, there is thy eternal enemy; attack him swiftly, subdue him; make Order of him, subject not of Chaos, but of intelligence, Divinity and Thee. The thistle that grows in thy path, dig it out, that a blade of useful grass, a drop of nourishing milk, may grow there instead. Thomas Carlyle, Past and Present 1848
There will always be people who splash cold water on the embers of hope, who try to dash out the last sparks of burning aliveness hope gifts us. There will always be people who see parts and pieces, numbers and data, only seeing the hole, when they think they are seeing the whole picture. They can blot a vision, thrash a dream and crash hopes-- but only if you let them.
Rob Kall
Informer
Why, Confused?
01.09.2009 14:36
Why this bourgeois use of the word "acceptable"?
Why would a "hoodie wearing sabs who want to smash up" even want to be "acceptable"?
Me I would rather see someone doing something brave and thoughtful and creative than be spouted bossy guff at any day.
T
More Mis-information
01.09.2009 17:02
Climate change actions, animal rights, anti-fascism, anarchism, class was and more all go hand in hand - you must be a bit of a berk to not realise that!
Although at least they got one thing right, I'm not too keen on my folk :p
The real L.S!
yeah ok
01.09.2009 17:39
just another geek
Surely racist or sexist language is itself the alienator?
01.09.2009 19:34
If people are being sexist or racist you've alienated over half your potential audience at one fell swoop!
And since animals raised for meat are a major contributor to pollution and global warming, it makes sense for the food to be vegan, seeing as it's an environmental event. It's lowest common denominator too - everyone will be happy with it (well, maybe not fruitarians or raw fooders, but most people!) And you minimise the risk of dangerous food poisoning incidents where I imagine cleanliness and refrigeration is possible less than perfect.
anti-racist
@Max
01.09.2009 20:09
I will try and be nice, though sorry if nice to you is part of middle class behaviour, I can ensure you I am a member of the working class - though unlike to you, it means less to me to say so.
If your article is meant to be a critique and analysis of the camp it falls short on both occasions. The main thrust of your argument is that climate camp is middle-class therefore we can roll out all the ladybird book of classist stereotypes and reel off what has become a very crude and boring set of opinionated rants.
The Camp for Climate Action has managed, and is in the process of forming, a vibrant social movement that has the will and determination to succeed. To bring over 2,000 people from across the UK to set-up a self-sufficient camp on Blackheath is an enormous effort. The logistical operations have been empowering and the Climate Camp is inspiringly confident. There is nothing in the Anarchist Movement, or The LEFT which approaches the potential that the Climate Camp has. FACT.
When I walked into the camp I didn't come there with an ideological position, I came to learn, to listen to people, to understand the rationale on why people have got involved. Thats not to say I am looking at it from the outside, as an anarchist I feel very much a part of it. To have managed to organise and execute such a succesful action, involving so many people and with the use of popular technology hasn't been seen for a while. The people involved are not professionals or hired contractors, these are people who have developed skills because they become a neccesity to organise politically. Sadly, I doubt many of the nah-sayers lurking on internet-land could even bother to even think of such schemes.
The issues relating to the sign are also ridiculous. They were placed there so people felt welcomed, only a complete fucking tosser would think they are "alienating" and so what if people did feel like that. Inclusivity is about setting up the terms and conditions that you include people. And if there was meat food being sold on site I bet it would have been people like you complaining first "oh they think they're so green but they eat sausage rolls". Considering the meat industry is environmentally damaging, as a meat eater, I support the need for less meat.
I do agree that the majority of people involved are from backgrounds which would be considered middle-class. But so what. As an anarchist I am against the class system, I an NOT for the working class or any class, I am for the abolition of class! So whether people whose parents are middle class is not my concern. My concern is the problems of replicating those class structures within that movement. This is the issue, There are many people who have come from the middle-classes that acknowledged and rebelled against those power structures. I can think of atleast 20 anarchist heroes who came from far richer backgrounds. What someone wheres, what they eat, how they talk does not bare any connection on their ability to be against the class system, they just have a longer process to go to recognise the problem so as not to repeat it.
Many people, and I will include my anarchist comrades in London, use their supposed working class identity as a means to fill a void in their inability to articulate a clear strategy. To denounce someone as middle class, means that whatever opinion they have, it is somehow invalid or less worthy. To me in my experience this is utter shite. It is not where you come from its where you want to go.
Which brings me to my last point. The Climate Camp has only been going for a short time, there are massive challenges ahead, and strategically it needs to look at thes main points of critique leveled at them. I know today (Tuesday) was a day of discussions on the camp looking at these critiques and I hope it is beneficial. The other issue is how others with more radical politics can contribute. Every year there are less anarchists actively getting involved, I think more of an effort needs to be made by organised anarchist groups to present the politics and practice. These arguments need to be won.
For Red/Black Resistance.
reddy black
A few words
01.09.2009 21:16
"The first thing I saw at Climate Camp was a list of rules on the way in including the classic alienators - vegan, no sexist and no racist language."
As somebody else said, its the abuse of sexes, races and species that are the alienators. Yes there shouldn't be rules pointing it out as it should be obvious, but you've clearly got this understanding the wrong way round. Oppression is alientaing, not the preventation of it.
"As for making the camp vegan, that's pure activist scenesterism. It's fine to try to show people alternatives (as the camp tries to do) but how will most people react to this rule? Most non-activists people I spoke to about this couldn't believe it. Anti-capitalism is the realm of anyone interested in honest and genuine discussion to make amazing things happen and to change the world but it cannot begin with rules that act as answers before anyone has even asked some questions."
Watch out for using the word scenesterism without realising what a scene is. Once upon a time it was 'scene' to respect women and black people. It seems its now scene to repsect non-human as well as human animals. No wonder most activists couldn't believe the camp provided only vegan food - most activists didn't realise it is the only sustainable and anti-oppressive diet. Afterall it would be hypocritical to provide food that damages the environment and its species! This is why the food is also local and seasonal, simple.
PS - Anti-capitalism is about taking down capitalism, nothing more, nothing less. Not having rules is about anti-authoritarianism. I think you got the two confsued as the same entity.
@ivica
"im not going to lie, the vegan thing is whack. it's pointless and i just cant see which of these guys who organised it decided they had the right to tell people what they can and cannot eat,"
As far as I understand it, the camp is anti-authoritarian in its structure and nature. This includes not acting authoritively over or oppressive towards non-humans, such as killing or milking them without their consent (which you're obviously never going to get). Through the meetings it was clearly agreed to only provide vegan food for these reasons. At no point are people not allowd to consume animal abuse, just it is not provided by the camp.
@Elaine
"Therefore, I want to suggest that we consider carefully how we address the actions of each other. None of us are capable of living a completely vegan life,"
This is a common oxymoronic error with veganism. Veganism is a philosophy based on "as far as practical and possible". Yes by walking we can kill animals, by driving as well, and by breathing we can consume animals - but as long as its not intentional you are still vegan.
My point is saying a "complete vegan" is oxymoronic and ignores that veganism is being complete in the sense of causing as little damage to animals as possible and practical.
"The word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment."
veg@n
Just Another Geek, Ant-Racist, Reddy Black and Veg@n
01.09.2009 23:38
'...so rather than criticise why not get involved and have your say like i did?'
I was there, getting involved, and being critical, as I still am.
Anti-Racist:
'Surely it is sexist or racist language that is the alienator, not signs saying it isn't welcome?
I agree but I made a qualification about these signs rather than making any support for racists or sexist -
"Of course, no one would welcome racists or patriarchs inside the camp but that's a matter for the community inside to figure out solutions too as we do in our everyday lives. It's indicative of the activist mindset and false notion of togetherness to have to put this up as a rule and begin with. It's no guarantee that those inside are free of sexism and racism anyway and who needs these artificial boundaries if we are to make a new world together where racists and sexists are challenged and might begin to understand the ignorance and abuse that they pursue?"
ReddyBlack:
'The Climate Camp has only been going for a short time, there are massive challenges ahead, and strategically it needs to look at the main points of critique leveled at them. I know today (Tuesday) was a day of discussions on the camp looking at these critiques and I hope it is beneficial. The other issue is how others with more radical politics can contribute. Every year there are less anarchists actively getting involved, I think more of an effort needs to be made by organised anarchist groups to present the politics and practice. These arguments need to be won.'
I was trying to present some of these radical ideas that you think the Camp needs based on mine and some other people's experience at the camp. I'm hoping that instead of getting worse and less radical CC will begin once again to be able to articulate a clear strategy and one that is political and not mainly subcultural. Myself, I still think this is a matter of class. I have nothing but respect for anyone from any class who finds something better in themselves in anti-capitalism and is then able to leave behind any sense of class baggage. That's what would make those people working class. They are not managers or owners but workers. It's the managerial-activist tendency that I see in CC that I distrust and sadly this is the one that is presented by it's spectacular demos and media readiness. I doubt I am the only one who is saying that this year was the worst for that so far.
Veg@n"
'After all it would be hypocritical to provide food that damages the environment and its species!'
Everything brought to the Camp has some connection somewhere to some kind of exploitation, suffering and environmental damage some where in the world. Who bottles the propane for the stoves? Who makes the metal fencing around the camp and where did the petrol come from for the vans and trucks that brought in the materials for the camp? How many clothes that people wore were not made in sweatshops in China or elsewhere? Which can of beer was not owned by a multinational that somewhere exploits its workers and the environment? Who made the mobile phones, digital cameras and who mined the raw materials for them?
Anti-capitalism is opposing the social relationship that we all have no choice to participate in - that's working for bosses for profit. No amount of choices around lifestyle will alter that relation one bit. Veganism is a personal choice but it is not an anti-capitalist act. Revolution (if we ever could being that on) would be that action.
-----
My overall point is that inclusivity and exclusivity are a horrible binary oppoistion that gets you nowhere. Rather than CC rules as a starting point that say this or that (where some feel included and by default some others feel excluded) why not try simple conversation, dialogue, challenge and contestation to encourage openness and togetherness.
'The fundamental premise for free action is dialogue. Now, any authentic discourse requires two conditions: a real interest in the questions brought up to be discussed (the problem of content) and the free search for possible answers (the problem of method). These two conditions should occur at the same time, given that the content determines the method, and vice versa. One can only talk of freedom in freedom. What is the point of asking questions if we are not free to answer? What is the point of answering if the questions are always false? Dialogue only exists when individuals can talk to each other without mediation, i.e. when they relate reciprocally. If the discourse is one-way, no communication is possible. If someone has the power to impose the questions, the content of the latter will be directly functional to this (and the answers will contain subjection). Subjects can only be asked questions whose answers confirm their role as such, and from which the bosses will draw the questions of the future. The slavery lies in continuing to reply.'
From 'At Daggers Drawn with the Existent, its Defenders and its False Critics', Anon.
Max Holz
Max
02.09.2009 02:34
Furthermore I think you forget that yes - lifestyle change does not act as a rebellion against the state and cannot not bring about change, but also direct action does not provide an alternative lifestyle to change to. Insurrectionary politics is not ideology that works on its own, it works alongside lifestyle changes, as part of a combined praxis for social change.
"Veganism is a personal choice but it is not an anti-capitalist act."
What's 'personal' about not exploiting other individuals? If you want to talk of personal choices then its not to be eaten. Veganism is about pro-choice, not personal choice. Of course a lifestyle change is not an act, but it is still ideological. Veganism can be anti-capitalist because it leads to self-sustainability, instead of corporate dependancy.
"Anti-capitalism is opposing the social relationship that we all have no choice to participate in - that's working for bosses for profit."
It's not all about bosses and profit, it's also about our social relationship with fellow species, that at the moment we have no choice to participate in on a wider scale. It's not just about looking at how we are oppressed, but also how we oppress others - such as non-humans.
"No amount of choices around lifestyle will alter that relation one bit."
True, it won't alter choices, but encourages them to alter by complementing action.
veg@n
don't back peddle max
02.09.2009 08:37
"I have more hope for the future from being around a million people in Notting Hill than I do being around 2000 people on Blackheath"
Your words mate. Meaningless, trites and middle class as fuck. (Just like climate camp eh pal ;))
as a way of a p.s -
You'd be surprised how many posh fucks pretend to be working class on the internet. One of the key give aways is they try so hard to distance themselves from the activities of their own social class by being even more critical of them ie just as you did in the opener. You a classic example max.
gluee sniffer
Veganism
02.09.2009 08:58
Re Veganism. The point is that a meat and dairy based diet is THE leading cause of climate change, furthermore land that could be used to feed humans directly or simply left alone retaining biodiversity, and regulating the climate is being trashed for meat and dairy. Really if someone cares so little about this issue that they cannot be vegan for a few days why bother doing anything to combat climate change? This was in the centre of London, those who wanted could eat meat outside the camp, no-one was stopping them. Veganism is one of the most important ways in which an individual can reduce their carbon and water footprints and it is piss easy in the UK to be vegan at this time. Salutations to all of the brilliant cooks who fed us all with excellent food.
Of course you could take the argument further and say why should the coffee and tea be fair trade someone might want Nescafe, why shouldn't someone be allowed to have a great big sound system running through the night (annoying both campers and residents), why bother recycling at all etc etc. This was not a festival.
Lynn Sawyer
@Gluee Sniffer
02.09.2009 09:33
So we can't stop that part of the cynicism now.
Sorry everyone!
@
oh that's alright then
02.09.2009 09:46
If he was the fella who threatened WAG with the sledgehammer at the camp then i take back everything i've said about vibrant max ; )
Just as a matter of interest vibrant max hasn't mentioned how the notting hill carnival has been divested of all its political content.
gluee sniffer
i thought middle class gilt ...
02.09.2009 10:15
... ornalu
Chalk and Cheese
02.09.2009 10:30
A massive piss up, which long ago lost its radical edge.
*sigh*
Halt Max
Look At this!!!!! Positive Suff!!
02.09.2009 11:08
Oh! come along to london Vegan Festival At Kensington Town Hall on Sunday 6TH September.www.vegancampaigns/festival
Or and both Green Party Conference 4th-6th September,Mark Thomas to perform on Saturday night! At Hove Town Hall.
You know what to do!!
But please keep that woderful tradition of englishness of whinging alive!!! He saID That,she said this..pleasee can we laugh???
Mr Rattled
Not a festival ?
02.09.2009 11:18
The burger and ice cream vans parked nearby were probably the biggest winners over the entire week apart from Chief Supt Helen Ball whose ability to portray the police as first hard done by because they didn't know where the camp was going to be (yeah right !) and then with her TV friendly performance for the cameras at home. I see a promotion on the cards.
The prim 'we know best' thought police on the camp with their obsessive need to control everything from the camp layout to the food to the sound systems pissed off just about everybody I knew there and really pulled the vibe down most days.
On the upside seeing a new generation of people becoming a little bit radicalised was positive and some of the 'unoficial' actions were great. The food was fantastic and the childrens workshops wonderful, my daughter is still talking about them all now. Blackheath was a surprising choice of venue which probably was easier to take but I was unhappy at the idea of common land being fenced off even if only for a few days, I wouldn't accept it from the local council and I don;t think we should think we are special in some way.
On balance I probably will not attend the camp next year if it's going to be the same again and will prefer to spend the week on a project like the Leeds Eco village where my skills will be put to better use and probably make a bigger difference to the climate change problem.
Bishop
Middle class revolts
02.09.2009 11:25
This "the middle class are all dilletants who can't bring about social change and are too wussy for real direct action" stuff that underlies a lot of postings shows no knowledge of history.
The suffragettes - who died, went on hunger strike and achieved real social change - were predominantly middle-class.
It's laughable to make the carnival comparison, by the way.
Orville N
working for change
02.09.2009 12:56
darren
Carnival etc
02.09.2009 13:43
On the holy authenticity of being working class or middle class - everyone seems so funny about it. If I say I am working class and post some criticisms of Climate Camp, people who have no way of knowing who I am at all, tell me I must be middle class because they can tell somehow because apparently lots of middle class people post here and pretend to be working class.
Is that the same as saying that working class people can't possible write something here that is fairly articulate so they must be self-hating middle class people? It sounds like it.
Veg@n:
'Veganism can be anti-capitalist because it leads to self-sustainability, instead of corporate dependancy'.
I don't think I understand this idea. Can you elaborate please?
Max Holz
@Darren
02.09.2009 14:00
I agree. Didn't mean to suggest that the CC were like the Suffragettes (far from it). Just having a rant against generalisations - so glad you're anti generalisations too.
Orville N
Has anyone else noticed..
02.09.2009 15:22
arf
shapht
egalitarianism
02.09.2009 16:32
When they get all rebellious, it's a scream:
"Whose streets?" "Daddy's streets (since the 18th century)!"
nog
Elaborated answer for Max
02.09.2009 18:04
This is why I say self-sustainability leads towards veganism, and visa versa. Veganism being an environmental diet (see definition) and being about liberating human and non-human animals. I hope that makes a bit more sense, although I'm still not explaining it that well.
Basically, for anyone to survive we need self-sustainable veganism as a lifestyle basis.
veg@n
actually, veg@an
02.09.2009 23:02
and in fact, even if there is a cockerel, non broody hens will leave their (fertilised) eggs, which therefore have no chance of becoming chickens. What is wrong with eating those? Again I have always wanted to know,
Please reply!
T
Nothing can now stop mass starvation.
03.09.2009 20:14
Do not be squeamish. Be rich and armed or perish at the same time most people. Darling (just on telly news) is determined to restore growth, so he is an agent of Satan determined to destroy God's Creation. The Global Commons Institute gave enough warnings about twenty years ago. No one paid any attention or considered the further implications of what they said.
Carnivore
Veganism at Climate Camp
03.09.2009 21:19
Should climate camp also drive to their actions in 4x4's and have supporters fly to the site? It is simply not eco-friendly to eat meat, milk and eggs. If climate camp is against climate change it make sense for it to be vegan. There is no point having compost toilets, recycling, etc. if people are going to sit in the camp stuffing their face with meat.
ECO
@T
03.09.2009 21:40
But I suspect the question is meant hypothetically. Suppose we breed hens differently and all the male chicks were kept on a huge sanctuary (where?) and the hens joined them once egg production dropped in the huge magical place where we waste tons of food that could be given to people, then wouldn't it be OK?
From an animal rights/liberation perspective it would not because it would still be necessary to breed hens to live in captivity for a start. Also she would still be exploited as an item of property rather than an individual with value outside her value to humans. You can not respect or act ethically towards someone while holding her as property. If we are talking about hens that currently exist and therefore require care then they can eat their unfertilised eggs so they are the hens personal property and not a waste product.
ARA
Replies
04.09.2009 00:47
As ARA said, if you are referring to "free range" farms... 1. They are not free range. 2. They kill chickens that are 'unproductive' due to profit so is no better than the meat industry. 3. Chickens would still be exploited as an item of property, ie objectification.
If we are talking about hens that currently exist and therefore require care in a well looked after sanctuary: Whilst I don't agree with ARA that chicken's eggs are their personal property, because it is menstrual discharge from their bodies and I don't see discharged bodily fluids as property. From a feminist point of view I think it could be emotionally harmful to take part of someone's menstrual cycle (discharged or not) without their consent (which as I always say, you will never get from a non-human animal). Furthermore as ARA pointed out, hens (when left to their own discharge) commonly consume it. If I'm correct this is out of of instinct, so as to not attract any unwanted prey I believe.
Regarding non broody hens who leave their fertilised eggs, this is a bit of a deeper issue. It's their aborted child therefore the same type of choices humans understand (pro-choice) should apply for hens who choice an abortion. This includes the reserved choice to disgard, consume or otherwise destoy their aborted fetus, and their wishes should be respected. Again you would not have their consent granted, even if they did seemingly disgard their egg.
Then there's not eating someone's elses period without their consent as it's rude - even if it does taste nice! I hope that answers a few your questions from another perspective.
@Carnivore
Firstly, I'm curious. How on earth do you survive just consuming meat and nothing else? No offence here but you must be deficienct of most vitamins that come from fruit and veg!
"Nothing can now stop mass starvation.
No crops will grow when the full effect of the Methane feedback hits. When the cruch comes, the only meat fat enough to eat will be rich people."
There are enough crops growing at the moment to feed the population on a vegetarian diet, so infact mass starvation is not inevitable but easily preventable. Most of these are obviously being wasted by the Third World because corporations find it heavily profitable to waste food.
By all means burn the rich and eat them if you like, but its won't be necessary to survive.
veg@n
Veganism facts
04.09.2009 04:29
I do want to point out, however, that anyone who thinks EVERYONE should be vegan is being an extremist and anyone who believes veganism to be the ONLY sustainable way to eat is wrong.
Is is very hard to maintain soil fertility on a vegan farm. It can be done (read the excellent book Growing Green published by the vegan organic network), but it requires more land and produces less food per acre.
Yes, industrial livestock and dairy production is massively polluting and a major cause of greenhouse gases.
But in terms of long-term sustainability (which ultimately comes down to the health of the soil), and producing as much nutritional food as possible from available land, small mixed farms that include small amounts of livestock are probably the best.
In short, eating small amounts of local organic meat raised on well managed small mixed farms is quite possibly better for the environment than most vegan diets heavily reliant on imports.
Disclaimer\ FYI: Apart from small bits by accident I've so far never eaten any meat nor fish in my life (yes, I was brought up as a ovo-lacto veggie from birth). I do eat (probably too much, frankly) dairy products and eggs, mostly organic and/ or local but not always.
Josef Davies-Coates
e-mail:
josef@uniteddiversity.com
Homepage:
http://uniteddivesity.com
Not laughing
04.09.2009 09:50
"It's their aborted child therefore the same type of choices humans understand (pro-choice) should apply for hens who choice an abortion"
I've heard some great arguments for veganism, but these aren't them.
Antonio Anthropomorphio
thank you
04.09.2009 10:09
Admittedly this is a pretty good situation for an chicken, and bears no resemblance to the tortured travesty of the supermarket sheds, but at it's best it seems to be a symbiotic relationship rather than a parasitical one, and I still can't quite understand how the chickens are being over exploited in this situation. But thank you.
T
eggsasperating comments
04.09.2009 10:32
Are there enough acres so that everyone can enjoy these wonderful eggs? Even now there are billions who hardly ever get to eat eggs, and the majority of those that do eat eggs that come from situations like this:
Some people are born with silver spoons in their mouths, and most aren't. We can't reform capitalism by appealing to the state, but the chances are that those with the silver spoons don't want to give them up, any more than the masses want their food to be farmed in appalling conditions....
Henny Penny
eggstreme
04.09.2009 11:55
And no-one - no-one - has suggested that the brutal mass farming system is anything other than detestable.
T
eggspletive
04.09.2009 12:07
A poor, poor, poor person with a few acres. Thats nice.
Cocky Locky
Extremist and proud
05.09.2009 01:23
"The question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be...The nation and the world are in dire need of creative extremists." - MLK
Being an animal I think it's appropriate to be an animal liberation extremist.
Always nice to get a compliment though so cheers :-)
PS - Veganism is the only sustainable diet, even lacto-ovo-vegetarian isn't sustainable to feed the worlds population. No I don't mean as a philosophy its sustainable, but practised ecologically (outside of civilisation) it is. Not sure what indigenous cultures or areas where humans can't survive in has to do with this debate but there we go. Once upon a time human slavery was a culture, but didn't and doesn't justify slavery.
veg@n
Sigh
05.09.2009 10:40
T
eggscreta
05.09.2009 12:11
eggsit
Foxy Loxy
Eggcelling yourself
05.09.2009 15:01
It's sad that someone who knows so little aboout real life in the country should have such strong and unpleasant opinions about it.
T
Are you talking to me T?
05.09.2009 20:14
veg@n
hey veg@n
06.09.2009 08:14
x
T
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