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Color Revolutions, Old and New

Stephen Lendman | 01.07.2009 18:39 | Anti-militarism | Globalisation | Social Struggles | World

After Iran's June 12 election, days of street protests and clashes with Iranian security forces followed. Given Washington's history of stoking tensions and instability in the region, its role in more recent color revolutions, and its years of wanting regime change in Iran, analysts have strong reasons to suspect America is behind post-election turbulence and one-sided Western media reports claiming electoral fraud and calling for a new vote, much like what happened in Georgia and Ukraine.

Daily Telegraph, 16 June 2009
Daily Telegraph, 16 June 2009


In his new book, "Full Spectrum Dominance: Totalitarian Democracy in the New World Order," F. William Engdahl explained a new form of US covert warfare - first played out in Belgrade, Serbia in 2000. What appeared to be "a spontaneous and genuine political 'movement,' (in fact) was the product of techniques" developed in America over decades.

In the 1990s, RAND Corporation strategists developed the concept of "swarming" to explain "communication patterns and movement of" bees and other insects which they applied to military conflict by other means. More on this below.

In Belgrade, key organizations were involved, including the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), the International Republican Institute (IRI), and National Democratic Institute. Posing as independent NGOS, they're, in fact, US-funded organizations charged with disruptively subverting democracy and instigating regime changes through non-violent strikes, mass street protests, major media agitprop, and whatever else it takes short of military conflict.

Engdahl cited Washington Post writer Michael Dobbs' first-hand account of how the Clinton administration engineered Slobodan Milosevic's removal after he survived the 1990s Balkan wars, 78 days of NATO bombing in 1999, and major street uprisings against him. A $41 million campaign was run out of American ambassador Richard Miles' office. It involved "US-funded consultants" handling everything, including popularity polls, "training thousands of opposition activists and helping to organize a vitally important parallel vote count."

Thousands of spray paint cans were used "by student activists to scrawl anti-Milosevic graffiti on walls across Serbia," and throughout the country around 2.5 million stickers featured the slogan "Gotov Je," meaning "He's Finished."

Preparations included opposition leader training in nonviolent resistance techniques at a Budapest, Hungary seminar - on matters like "organiz(ing) strike(s), communicat(ing) with symbols....overcom(ing) fear, (and) undermin(ing) the authority of a dictatorial regime." US experts were in charge, incorporating RAND Corporation "swarming" concepts.

GPS satellite images were used to direct "spontaneous hit-and-run protests (able to) elude the police or military. Meanwhile, CNN (was) carefully pre-positioned to project images around the world of these youthful non-violent 'protesters.' " Especially new was the use of the Internet, including "chat rooms, instant messaging, and blog sites" as well as cell phone verbal and SMS text-messaging, technologies only available since the mid-1990s.

Milosevic was deposed by a successful high-tech coup that became "the hallmark of the US Defense policies under (Rumsfeld) at the Pentagon." It became the civilian counterpart to his "Revolution in Military Affairs" doctrine using "highly mobile, weaponized small groups directed by 'real time' intelligence and communications."

Belgrade was the prototype for Washington-instigated color revolutions to follow. Some worked. Others failed. A brief account of several follows below.

In 2003, Georgia's bloodless "Rose Revolution" replaced Edouard Shevardnadze with Mikhail Saakashvili, a US-installed stooge whom Engdahl calls a "ruthless and corrupt totalitarian who is tied (not only to) NATO (but also) the Israeli military and intelligence establishment." Shevardnadze became a liability when he began dealing with Russia on energy pipelines and privatizations. Efforts to replace him played out as follows, and note the similarities to events in Iran after claims of electoral fraud.

Georgia held parliamentary elections on November 2. Without evidence, pro-western international observers called them unfair. Saakashvili claimed he won. He and the united opposition called for protests and civil disobedience. They began in mid-November in the capital Tbilisi, then spread throughout the country. They peaked on November 22, parliament's scheduled opening day. While it met, Saakashvili-led supporters placed "roses" in the barrels of soldiers' rifles, seized the parliament building, interrupted Shevardnadze's speech, and forced him to flee for his safety.

Saakashvili declared a state of emergency, mobilized troops and police, met with Sherardnadze and Zurab Zhvania (the former parliament speaker and choice for new prime minister), and apparently convinced the Georgian president to resign. Celebrations erupted. A temporary president was installed. Georgia's Supreme Court annulled the elections, and on January 4, 2004, Saakashvili was elected and inaugurated president on January 25.

New parliamentary elections were held on March 28. Saakashvili's supporters used heavy-handed tactics to gain full control with strong US backing in plotting and executing his rise to power. US-funded NGOs were also involved, including George Soros' Open Society Georgia Foundation, Freedom House, NED, others tied to the Washington establishment, and Richard Miles after leaving his Belgrade post to serve first as ambassador to Bulgaria from 1999 - 2002, then Georgia from 2002 - 2005 to perform the same service there as against Milosevic.

Ukraine's "Orange Revolution" followed a similar pattern to Georgia and now Iran. After Viktor Yanukovych won the November 21, 2004 run-off election against Viktor Yushchenko, it erupted following unsubstantiated claims of fraud. Yanukovych favored openness to the West but represented a pro-Russian constituency and was cool towards joining NATO. Washington backed Yushchenko, a former governor of Ukraine's Central Bank whose wife was a US citizen and former official in the Reagan and GHW Bush administrations. He favored NATO and EU membership and waged a campaign with the color orange prominently featured.

The media picked up on it and touted his "Orange Revolution" against the country's Moscow-backed old guard. Mass street protests were organized as well as civil disobedience, sit-ins and general strikes. They succeeded when Ukraine's Supreme Court annulled the run-off result and ordered a new election for December 26, 2004. Yushchenko won and was inaugurated on January 23, 2005.

In his book, "Full Spectrum Dominance," Engdahl explained how the process played out. Under the slogan "Pora (It's Time)," people who helped organize Georgia's "Rose Revolution" were brought in to consult "on techniques of non-violent struggle." The Washington-based Rock Creek Creative PR firm was instrumental in branding the "Orange Revolution" around a pro-Yushchenko web site featuring that color theme. The US State Department spent around $20 million dollars to turn Yanukovych's victory into one for Yushchenko with help from the same NGOs behind Georgia's "Rose Revolution" and others.

Myanmar's August - September 2007 "Saffron Revolution" used similar tactics as in Georgia and Ukraine but failed. They began with protests led by students and opposition political activists followed by Engdahl's description of "swarming mobs of monks in saffron, Internet blogs, mobile SMS links between protest groups, (and) well-organized (hit-and-run) protest cells which disperse(d) and re-form(ed)."

NED and George Soros' Open Society Institute led a campaign for regime change in league with the State Department by its own admission. Engdahl explained that the "State Department....recruited and trained key opposition leaders from numerous anti-government organizations in Myanmar" and ran its "Saffron Revolution" out of the Chaing Mai, Thailand US Consulate.

Street protesters were "recruited and trained, in some cases directly in the US, before being sent back to organize inside Myanmar." NED admitted funding opposition media, including the Democratic Voice of Burma radio.

Ahead of the 2008 Beijing Olympics, Washington tried to embarrass and destabilize China with a "Crimson Revolution" in Tibet - an operation dating from when George Bush met the Dalai Lama publicly in Washington for the first time, awarded him the Congressional Gold Medal, and backed Tibetan independence.

On March 10, Engdahl reported that Tibetan monks staged "violent protests and documented attacks (against) Han Chinese residents....when several hundred monks marched on Lhasa (Tibet's capital) to demand release of other monks allegedly detained for celebrating the award of the US Congress' Gold Medal" the previous October. Other monks joined in "on the 49th anniversary of the Tibetan uprising against Chinese rule."

The same instigators were involved as earlier - NED, Freedom House, and others specific to Tibet, including the International Committee for Tibet and the Trace Foundation - all with ties to the State Department and/or CIA.

The above examples have a common thread - achieving what the Pentagon calls "full spectrum dominance" that depends largely on controlling Eurasia by neutralizing America's two main rivals - Russia militarily, China economically, and crucially to prevent a strong alliance between the two. Controlling Eurasia is a strategic aim in this resource-rich part of the world that includes the Middle East.


Iran's Made-in-the-USA "Green Revolution"

After Iran's June 12 election, days of street protests and clashes with Iranian security forces followed. Given Washington's history of stoking tensions and instability in the region, its role in more recent color revolutions, and its years of wanting regime change in Iran, analysts have strong reasons to suspect America is behind post-election turbulence and one-sided Western media reports claiming electoral fraud and calling for a new vote, much like what happened in Georgia and Ukraine.

The same elements active earlier are likely involved now with a May 22, 2007 Brian Ross and Richard Esposito ABC News report stating:

"The CIA has received secret presidential approval to mount a 'black' operation to destabilize the Iranian government, current and former officials in the intelligence community tell the Blotter on ABCNews.com. The sources who spoke on the condition of anonymity....say President Bush has signed a 'nonlethal presidential finding' that puts into motion a CIA plan that reportedly includes a coordinated campaign of propaganda, disinformation and manipulation of Iran's currency and international financial transactions."

Perhaps disruptions as well after the June 12 election to capitalize on a divided ruling elite - specifically political differences between Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Supreme Leader/Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei on one side and Mir Hossein Mousavi, former president Hashemi Rafsanjani, and Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri on the other with Iran's Revolutionary Guard so far backing the ruling government. It's too early to know conclusively but evidence suggests US meddling, and none of it should surprise.

Kenneth Timmerman provides some. He co-founded the right wing Foundation for Democracy in Iran (FDI) and serves as its executive director. He's also a member of the hawkish Committee on the Present Danger (CPD) and has close ties to the equally hard line American Enterprise Institute, the same organization that spawned the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), renamed the Foreign Policy Initiative (FPI) for much the same purpose.

On the right wing newsmax.com web site, Timmerman wrote that the NED "spent millions of dollars during the past decade promoting color revolutions in places such as Ukraine and Serbia, training political workers in modern communications and organizational techniques." He explained that money also appears to have gone to pro-Mousavi groups, "who have ties to non-governmental organizations outside Iran that (NED) funds."

Pre-election, he elaborated about a "green revolution in Tehran" with organized protests ready to be unleashed as soon as results were announced because tracking polls and other evidence suggested Ahmadinejad would win. Yet suspiciously, Mousavi declared victory even before the polls closed.

It gets worse. Henry Kissinger told BBC news that if Iran's color revolution fails, hard line "regime change (must be) worked for from the outside" - implying the military option if all else fails. In a June 12 Wall Street Journal editorial, John Bolton called for Israeli air strikes whatever the outcome - to "put an end to (Iran's) nuclear threat," despite no evidence one exists.

Iran's rulers know the danger and need only cite Iraq, Afghanistan, and numerous other examples of US aggression, meddling, and destabilization schemes for proof - including in 1953 and 1979 against its own governments.

On June 17, AP reported that Iran "directly accused the United States of meddling in the deepening crisis." On June 21 on Press TV, an official said "The terrorist Mujahedin Khalq Organization (MKO) has reportedly played a major role in intensifying the recent wave of street violence in Iran. Iranian security officials reported (the previous day) that they have identified and arrested a large number of MKO members who were involved" in the nation's capital.

They admitted to having been trained in Iraq's camp Ashraf and got directions from MKO's UK command post "to create post-election mayhem in the country." On June 20 in Paris, MKO leader Maryam Rajavi addressed supporters and expressed solidarity with Iranian protesters.

In 2007, German intelligence called MKO a "repressive, sect-like and Stalinist authoritarian organization which centers around the personality cult of Maryam and Masoud Rajavi." MKO expert Anne Singleton explained that the West intends to use the organization to achieve regime change in Iran. She said its backers "put together a coalition of small irritant groups, the known minority and separatist groups, along with the MKO. (They'll) be garrisoned around the border with Iran and their task is to launch terrorist attacks into Iran over the next few years to keep the fire hot." They're perhaps also enlisted to stoke violence and conduct targeted killings on Iranian streets post-election as a way to blame them on the government.

On June 23, Tehran accused western media and the UK government of "fomenting (internal) unrest." In expelling BBC correspondent Jon Leyne, it accused him and the broadcaster of "supporting the rioters and, along with CNN," of setting up a "situation room and a psychological war room." Both organizations are pro-business, pro-government imperial tools, CNN as a private company, BBC as a state-funded broadcaster.

On its June 17 web site, BBC was caught publishing deceptive agitprop and had to retract it. It prominently featured a Los Angeles Times photo of a huge pro-Ahmadinejad rally (without showing him waving to the crowd) that it claimed was an anti-government protest for Mousavi.

Throughout its history since 1922, BBC compiled a notorious record of this sort of thing because the government appoints its senior managers and won't tolerate them stepping out of line. Early on, its founder, John Reith, wrote the UK establishment: "They know they can trust us not to be impartial," a promise faithfully kept for nearly 87 years and prominently on Iran.

With good reason on June 22, Iranian MPs urged that ties with Britain be reassessed while, according to the Fars news agency, members of four student unions planned protests at the UK embassy and warned of a repeat of the 1979 US embassy siege.

They said they'd target the "perverted government of Britain for its intervention in Iran's internal affairs, its role in the unrest in Tehran and its support of the riots." Iran's Foreign Ministry spokesperson, Hassan Ghashghavi, wouldn't confirm if London's ambassador would be expelled. On June 23, however, AP reported that two UK diplomats were sent home on charges of "meddling and spying."

State TV also said hard-line students protested outside the UK embassy, burned US, British and Israeli flags, hurled tomatoes at the building and chanted: "Down with Britain!" and "Down with USA!" Around 100 people took part.

Britain retaliated by expelling two Iranian diplomats. UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon demanded an immediate end to "arrests, threats and use of force." Iran's official news agency, IRNA, reported that the Iranian Foreign Ministry rejected Ban's remarks and accused him of meddling. On June 23, Obama said the world was "appalled and outraged" by Iran's violent attempt to crush dissent and claimed America "is not at all interfering in Iran's affairs."

Yet on June 26, USA Today reported that:

"The Obama administration is moving forward with plans to fund groups that support Iranian dissidents, records and interviews show, continuing a program that became controversial" under George Bush. For the past year, USAID has solicited funds to "promote democracy, human rights, and the rule of law in Iran," according to its web site.

On July 11, 2008, Jason Leopold headlined his Countercurrents.org article, "State Department's Iran Democracy Fund Shrouded in Secrecy" and stated:

"Since 2006, Congress has poured tens of millions of dollars into a (secret) State Department (Democracy Fund) program aimed at promoting regime change in Iran." Yet Shirin Abadi, Iran's 2003 Nobel Peace prize laureate, said "no truly nationalist and democratic group will accept" US funding for this purpose. In a May 30, 2007 International Herald Tribune column, she wrote: "Iranian reformers believe that democracy can't be imported. It must be indigenous. They believe that the best Washington can do for democracy in Iran is to leave them alone."

On June 24, Brent Scowcroft, former National Security Advisor to Gerald Ford and GHW Bush, told Al Jazeera television that "of course" Washington "has agents working inside Iran" even though America hasn't had formal relations with the Islamic Republic for 30 years.

Another prominent incident is being used against Iran, much like a similar one on October 10, 1990. In the run-up to Operation Desert Storm, the Hill & Knowlton PR firm established the Citizens for a Free Kuwait (CFK) front group to sell war to a reluctant US public. Its most effective stunt involved a 15-year-old Kuwaiti girl known only as Nayirah to keep her identity secret.

Teary eyed before a congressional committee, she described her eye-witness account of Iraqi soldiers "tak(ing) babies out of incubators and leav(ing) them on the cold floor to die." The dominant media featured her account prominently enough to get one observer to conclude that nothing had greater impact on swaying US public opinion for war, still ongoing after over 18 years.

Later it was learned that Nayirah was the daughter of Saud Nasir al-Sabah, a member of Kuwait's royal family and ambassador to the US. Her story was a PR fabrication, but it worked.

Neda (meaning "voice" in Farsi) Agha Soltani is today's Nayirah - young, beautiful, slain on a Tehran street by an unknown assassin, she's now the martyred face of opposition protesters and called "The Angel of Iran" by a supportive Facebook group. Close-up video captured her lying on the street in her father's arms. The incident and her image captured world attention. It was transmitted online and repeated round-the-clock by the Western media to blame the government and enlist support to bring it down. In life, Nayirah was instrumental in Iraq's destruction and occupation. Will Neda's death be as effective against Iran and give America another Middle East conquest?


Issues in Iran's Election

Despite being militant and anti-Western as Iran's former Prime Minister, Mousavi is portrayed as a reformer. Yet his support comes from Iranian elitist elements, the urban middle class, and students and youths favoring better relations with America. Ahmadinejad, in contrast, is called hardline. Yet he has popular support among the nation's urban and rural poor for providing vitally needed social services even though doing it is harder given the global economic crisis and lower oil prices.

Is it surprising then that he won? A Mousavi victory was clearly unexpected, especially as an independent candidate who became politically active again after a 20 year hiatus and campaigned only in Iran's major cities. Ahmadinejad made a concerted effort with over 60 nationwide trips in less than three months.

Then, there's the economy under Article 44 of Iran's constitution that says it must consist of three sectors - state-owned, cooperative, and private with "all large-scale and mother industries" entirely state-controlled, including oil and gas that provides the main source of revenue.

In 2004, Article 44 was amended to allow more privatizations, but how much is a source of contention. During his campaign, Mousavi called for moving away from an "alms-based" economy - meaning Ahmadinejad's policy of providing social services to the poor. He also promised to speed up privatizations without elaborating on if he has oil, gas, and other "mother industries" in mind. If so, drawing support from

Washington and the West is hardly surprising. On the other hand, as long as Iran's Guardian Council holds supreme power, an Ahmadinejad victory was needed as a pretext for all the events that followed. At this stage, they suspiciously appear to be US-orchestrated for regime change. Thus far, Iran's Revolutionary Guard, Basij militia, and other security forces have prevailed on the streets to prevent it, but it's way too early to declare victory.

George Friedman runs the private intelligence agency called Stratfor. On June 23 he wrote:

"While street protests in Iran appear to be diminishing, the electoral crisis continues to unfold, with reports of a planned nationwide strike and efforts by the regime's second most powerful cleric (Rafsanjani) to mobilize opposition against (Ahmadinejad) from within the system. In so doing he could stifle (his) ability to effect significant policy changes (in his second term), which would play into the hands of the United States."

Ahmadinejad will be sworn in on July 26 to be followed by his cabinet by August 19, but according to Stratfor it doesn't mean the crisis is fading. It sees a Rafsanjani-led "rift within the ruling establishment (that) will continue to haunt the Islamic Republic for the foreseeable future."

"What this means is that....Ahmadinejad's second term will see even greater infighting among the rival conservative factions that constitute the political establishment....Iran will find it harder to achieve the internal unity necessary to complicate US policy," and the Obama administration will try to capitalize on it to its advantage. Its efforts to make Iran into another US puppet state are very much ongoing, and for sure, Tehran's ruling government knows it. How it will continue to react remains to be seen.


"Swarming" to Produce Regime Change

In his book, "Full Spectrum Dominance," Engdahl explained the RAND Corporation's groundbreaking research on military conflict by other means. He cited researchers John Arquilla and David Ronfeldt's 1997 "Swarming & The Future of Conflict" document "on exploiting the information revolution for the US military. By taking advantage of network-based organizations linked via email and mobile phones to enhance the potential of swarming, IT techniques could be transformed into key methods of warfare."

In 1993, Arquilla and Ronfeldt prepared an earlier document titled "Cyberwar Is Coming!" It suggested that "warfare is no longer primarily a function of who puts the most capital, labor and technology on the battlefield, but of who has the best information about the battlefield" and uses it effectively.

They cited an information revolution using advanced "computerized information and communications technologies and related innovations in organization and management theory." They foresaw "the rise of multi-organizational networks" using information technologies "to communicate, consult, coordinate, and operate together across greater distances" and said this ability will affect future conflicts and warfare. They explained that "cyberwar may be to the 21st century what blitzkrieg was to the 20th century" but admitted back then that the concept was too speculative for precise definition.

The 1993 document focused on military warfare. In 1996, Arquilla and Ronfeldt studied netwar and cyberwar by examining "irregular modes of conflict, including terror, crime, and militant social activism." Then in 1997, they presented the concept of "swarming" and suggested it might "emerge as a definitive doctrine that will encompass and enliven both cyberwar and netwar" through their vision of "how to prepare for information-age conflict."

They called "swarming" a way to strike from all directions, both "close-in as well as from stand-off positions." Effectiveness depends on deploying small units able to interconnect using revolutionary communication technology.

As explained above, what works on battlefields has proved successful in achieving non-violent color revolution regime changes, or coup d'etats by other means. The same strategy appears in play in Iran, but it's too early to tell if it will work as so far the government has prevailed. However, for the past 30 years, America has targeted the Islamic Republic for regime change to control the last major country in a part of the world over which it seeks unchallenged dominance.

If the current confrontation fails, expect future ones ahead as imperial America never quits. Yet in the end, new political forces within Iran may end up changing the country more than America can achieve from the outside - short of conquest and occupation, that is.

A final point. The core issue isn't whether Iran's government is benign or repressive or if its June 12 election was fair or fraudulent. It's that (justifiable criticism aside) no country has a right to meddle in the internal affairs of another unless it commits aggression in violation of international law and the UN Security Council authorizes a response. Washington would never tolerate outside interference nor should it and neither should Iran.

Stephen Lendman
- Homepage: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14168

Comments

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This, frankly, is bonkers

01.07.2009 20:02

Somehow the CIA are able to train literally millions of protestors from all over the world and send them into action. Mr Lendman, people don't do things if they don't want to.

Noe lets do some arithmetic. Suppose the CIA recruited 100,000 of 'the gilded youth of Teheran' [description courtesy of Shameless Milne of the Grauniad]. They set up camps in Iran. A CIA agent in Iran would stand out like Mr Lendman at a MENSA meeting. Or perhaps they flew them all to Amerikkka? And what incentives did they they give the gilded youths to venture out on the streets to be shot? Money? Perhaps a thousand dollars a head. Right. That's only $100,000,000. And no one notices. Yeah, right. [Linguist's joke: two positives making a negative.]

Oh, yeah, and the CIA provided thousands of cans of spray paint for the youths of Serbia. Was there a CIA agent standing by each student activist to make sure they sprayed 'anti-Milosevic graffiti' and not 'Fuck off the CIA'?

Mr Lendman, i you ahve a tiny mind, you are out of it.

old mole


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THANKSGIVING (1956) - ee cummings

01.07.2009 21:35

a monstering horror swallows
this unworld me by you
as the god of our fathers' father bows
to a which that walks like a who

but the voice-with-a-smile of democracy
announces night & day
"all poor little peoples that want to be free
just trust in the u s a"

suddenly uprose hungary
and she gave a terrible cry
"no slave's unlife shall murder me
for i will freely die"

she cried so high thermopylae
heard her and marathon
and all prehuman history
and finally The UN

"be quiet little hungary
and do as you are bid
a good kind bear is angary
we fear for the quo pro quid"

uncle sam shrugs his pretty
pink shoulders you know how
and he twitches a liberal titty
and lisps "i'm busy right now"

so rah-rah-rah democracy
let's all be as thankful as hell
and bury the statue of liberty
(because it begins to smell)

Danny


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Oh, right

02.07.2009 07:08

Danny thinks the u s a should be _more_ interventionist. Er ... cognitive dissonance?

old mole


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cognitive dissonance indeed

02.07.2009 08:22

cummings, a former volunteer ambulance driver in the war to end all wars, was disgusted that the cia encouraged a revolt in hungary promising us help which they never had any intention of supplying, effectively hanging the hungarian democrats out to dry.

Danny


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Hungary for intervention

02.07.2009 09:05

Oddly, the Wikipedia entry for the Hungarian revolt of 53 years ago doesn't mention the CIA:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Hungarian_Revolution

But it was 53 years ago, and the world is very different now. If we could turn from history to current affairs, we still see Lendman's article as ludicrous and absurd.

old mole


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Crucifying democracy

02.07.2009 09:48

Personally, I am as unhappy living under US rule as I would have been under the USSR and can see little difference in those states morality. I think anyone who fights against their own government should be supported are less like Hungarians in 1956 and more like Finns or Latvians 15 years previous to that who fought with the Nazis against the USSR.

There have been reports that the CIA crucified a prisoner at Abu Ghraib, which stem from a recent New Yorker report which I'll quote below. Crucifixion is an emotive term in the West since Jesus was killed that way, and I'm sure the CIA didn't consider their execution a crucifixion. They didn't put nails through the prisoners hands or hang them from a cross. The more accurate term for this sort of tortuous slaying is 'strappado', where a prisoner has their hands tied behind their back and then raised off the floor by a rope tied to their hands. All the body weight is then placed on the arms and shoulders. Frankly, if I was going to survive I'd rather be crucified, although if I was certain to die then strappado will bring a quicker death. So the word crucifixion may be emotive but the CIA killing is no less barbaric.

"
The C.I.A. has apparently done nothing to penalize the officer who oversaw one of the most notorious renditions—that of a German car salesman named Khaled el-Masri. He was abducted while on a holiday in Macedonia, and flown by the agency to Afghanistan, where he was detained in a dungeon for five months without charges, before being released. From the start, the rendition team suspected that his case was one of mistaken identity. But the C.I.A. officer in charge at Langley—the agency asked that the officer’s name be withheld—insisted that Masri be further interrogated. “She just looked in her crystal ball and it said that he was bad,” a colleague recalls. Masri says that he was chained in a freezing cell with no bed, and given water so putrid that he could smell it across the room. He was threatened and stripped, and could hear other detainees crying all around him. After several weeks, the C.I.A. officer in charge learned that Masri’s German passport was not a forgery, as was originally suspected, and that he was not the terror suspect the agency thought he was. (The names were similar.) Even so, the officer in charge refused to release him. Eventually, Masri went on a hunger strike, losing sixty pounds. Skeptics in the agency went directly over the officer’s head to Tenet, who realized that his agency had been brutalizing an innocent man. Masri was released after a hundred and forty-nine days. But the officer in charge was not disciplined; in fact, a former colleague says, “she’s been promoted—twice.” Masri, meanwhile, has been unable to sue the U.S. government for either an apology or damages, because the courts consider the very existence of rendition a state secret—a position that the Obama Justice Department has so far supported.

No criminal charges have ever been brought against any C.I.A. officer involved in the torture program, despite the fact that at least three prisoners interrogated by agency personnel died as the result of mistreatment. In the first case, an unnamed detainee under C.I.A. supervision in Afghanistan froze to death after having been chained, naked, to a concrete floor overnight. The body was buried in an unmarked grave. In the second case, an Iraqi prisoner named Manadel al-Jamadi died on November 4, 2003, while being interrogated by the C.I.A. at Abu Ghraib prison, outside Baghdad. A forensic examiner found that he had essentially been crucified; he died from asphyxiation after having been hung by his arms, in a hood, and suffering broken ribs. Military pathologists classified the case a homicide. A third prisoner died after an interrogation in which a C.I.A. officer participated, though the officer evidently did not cause the death. (Several other detainees have disappeared and remain unaccounted for, according to Human Rights Watch.)

During his tenure at the C.I.A., John Helgerson, the former inspector general, forwarded the crucifixion case, along with an estimated half-dozen other incidents, to the Justice Department, for possible prosecution. But the case files have languished. An official familiar with the cases told me that the agency has deflected inquiries by the Senate Intelligence Committee seeking information about any internal disciplinary action.
"
Bear in mind that the deaths mentioned here are solely the identified CIA murders at Abu Ghraib, and are a tiny fraction of all the murdered prisoners killed by other US forces there and in the rest of Iraq and Afghanistan, where there at least a hundred and possibly thousands of similar murdered prisoners.

I think any Iranian dissident or their supporters have to recognise that the CIA is at least as evil as the Iranian state, and arguably far worse given it's greater number of victims and it's global reach. To jump from a theocracy back to a CIA puppet state is retrograde and Iranians who have accepted their share of the $400 million CIA destabilisation cash are effectively working for the global SAVAK. As to the many posts calling for 'support Iranian workers', during the $1million CIA coup in 1953 which overthrew Iranian democracy the communists played a key role in destabilising the President through CIA sponsored strikes, thus ushering in a dictator who went on to slaughter them ruthlessly.

Danny
- Homepage: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/22/090622fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=6


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Old Mole RE: Whackopedia

02.07.2009 10:01

You can't seriously cite Whackopedia as anything other than an example of how good ideas can often be undermined by their own nativity. It's cess pit being constantly churned by all sorts of partisan elements- and no, the truth doesn't naturally occupy the centre of a Ven diagram.

But had you clicked on the discussion tab for that page (usually far more entertaining than the sanitised drivel on the main page) you'd have found some interesting references- as anecdotal as anything else, I'll freely admit:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956#Americans_in_Budapest.3F

Apart from that, I wouldn't bother with Danny, he's a permanent CIA-in-my-cornflakes type troll here, and his hair trigger assertions probably do more harm than good in getting close to what the CIA may or may not be doing in Iran- that they are stirring the shit goes without question, but parroting the Ayatollah like some acolyte is no real analysis.

Much like Global Research. I think they publish some great stuff, but unfortunately also a load of tosh too, which again is damaging to itself.

But if you think the CIA has nothing whatsoever in these revolutions, then you are every bit as nutty as what you are decrying.

Mel Anoma


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RFE = CIA

02.07.2009 10:10

>Oddly, the Wikipedia entry for the Hungarian revolt of 53 years ago doesn't mention the CIA

Actually, it does mention the CIA, using one of the Agencies 'front' names. Don't bother trying to argue that Radio Free Europe wasn't a CIA front, they funded it and they had the same director and policies.

"During the uprising, the Radio Free Europe (RFE) Hungarian-language programs broadcast news of the political and military situation, as well as appealing to Hungarians to fight the Soviet forces, including tactical advice on resistance methods. After the Soviet suppression of the revolution, RFE was criticized for having misled the Hungarian people that NATO or United Nations would intervene if the citizens continued to resist."

Danny
- Homepage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe#Early_history


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Old Colonials

02.07.2009 10:44

This whole "its the CIA" is patronising old colonial nonsense. The poor backward people in these countries cant organise any kind of opposition themselves, they are far too stupid / lazy / whatever, so it must be the CIA. Frankly that is lazy and offensive thinking but seems to be the way of the left - very sad

Danny really is terrified of the CIA, why?

Yes there probably is lots of money going to them to destabilise places, but the idea that there are CIA agents on teh ground in Iran stirring up resistance is laughable. The CIA didnt have any operatives on the ground in Iraq prior to the invasion, none in Syria, so why should it be any different in Iran?

Danny there arent always monsters under your bed, or armchair.

Raoul Duke


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Duke of Oil, Oil, Oil

02.07.2009 11:13

>This whole "its the CIA" is patronising old colonial nonsense. The poor backward people in these countries cant organise any kind of opposition themselves, they are far too stupid / lazy / whatever, so it must be the CIA. Frankly that is lazy and offensive thinking but seems to be the way of the left - very sad

It is also a complete misrespretation of my actual position. No amount of foriegn intervention can cause serious destablisition without an existing and strong domestic opposition such as exists in Iran and every other place this tactic has been used.

>Danny really is terrified of the CIA, why?

Because they kill and torture people for no good reason. Because they overthrow legitimate regimes. Because they infiltrate groups under false pretences, are heavily involved in propaganda and have access to most of the communications intercepts of the NSA. It would seem sane to be wary of such a evil and powerful group, and disingenuous to mock such fears.

>Yes there probably is lots of money going to them to destabilise places, but the idea that there are CIA agents on teh ground in Iran stirring up resistance is laughable. The CIA didnt have any operatives on the ground in Iraq prior to the invasion, none in Syria, so why should it be any different in Iran?

That is a naive and unsubstantiated assertion but I think you answer your own question. The US invasion of Iraq provided an easy for infilitration into surrounding countries, and not just CIA but actual special force soldiers on the ground. I am quite willing to believe the CIA had only one agent on the ground in Hungary in 56, but agents permanently on the ground isn't the full story.

>Danny there arent always monsters under your bed, or armchair.

No, but there is someone posting under the name Raoul Duke which is a clear reference to the journalist who put me in touch with Seymour Hersh while I was investigating Abu Ghraib. A bit creepy, that.

Danny


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Nurse, time for the tablets again ...

02.07.2009 11:32

'Personally, I am as unhappy living under US rule as I would have been under the USSR'

You're living under US rule ...? Oh, right, sorry, forgot about the paranoia.

Under the rule of the USSR: tanks on the streets in Berlin (Nurse..?), in Prague (Nurse..??), in Warsaw (too late, he's gone). You could try visiting Eastern Europe and try talking to the people who live there, visit the various Museums of Occupation. No doubt when you were in Berlin when the wall came down, you saw all those deliriously happy West Berliners fleeing US rule, making for the Soviet side as fast as they could ...

And talking of paranoia, when did anyone post under the name 'Raoul Duke'?

But Lendman's article is still even fuller of crap then you are.

old mole


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Go back to burying you head in the ground

02.07.2009 11:56

>And talking of paranoia, when did anyone post under the name 'Raoul Duke'?

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/07/433643.html?c=on#c227338

Old Mole, you have just proven yourself to be an ignorant amateur. Frankly I'd rather talk to Duke as he has just proven he is the genuine article.

Danny


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Ah, the gentleman amateur ...

02.07.2009 12:04

... much better than being a professional agitprop regurgitator.

And since Indymedia doesn't log IP adresses [sound of hollow laughter], you're quite safe in your anonymity, aren't you?

old mole


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League of amateurs

02.07.2009 12:31

Mr Mole, to quote a 'gentleman amateur' you certainly respect, "i you ahve a tiny mind, you are out of it."

I have a lot to say about how safe it is to post on Indymedia, including my proof that the UK security services infiltrated a particular collective, but that is solely a distraction from this important topic. If you want to discuss that, please post a new article and I'll respond as long as I am able to, but please, on this thread, stick to the topic of Iranian dissidents and what we know of CIA involvement there.

Now, I am fully convinced that you personally aren't a security service agent, but I am equally convinced another poster on this thread is. If you don't mind, their opinions are of more interest to me so unless you raise specific points and argument about Iran and the CIA then I m just going to ignore you, no offence intended.

Danny


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One knock for 'yes' and two for 'no'?

02.07.2009 12:39

Danny is now getting letters of introduction from dead writers???

Mel Anoma


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David Copperfield

02.07.2009 12:57

... in which there is a character, Mr Dick, who has an obsession with King Charles' head. Thus Danny with the CIA and Iran.

The original post on which these commentaries are based talked of how the CIA were behind all the Rainbow Revolutions, but the assertions in the article were barmy. They are still barmy.

Several things are plain.No amount of CIA influence is going to get people out on the streets where they might be shot [I've read reports that some protestors in Teheran have been hanged]. Further, the worst possible move an opposition movement could do would be to take money from the CIA. If this ever got out,their credibility would be completely destroyed. Thirdly, the Iranian opposition probably has the same opinion of the CIA as you do. Thus the chance of the CIA influencing the post election turmoil is non existent.

I'm sure you'll still mutter 'destabilsation', 'special forces', '400 million dollars', 'Seymour Hersh' like a record stuck in the groove, but that's all you can do - mutter, since you have no proof or evidence at all.

old mole


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fear and loathing in Iran

02.07.2009 13:09

No, but I can recognise a refence than means something to me but not to other posters here. The MI5 poster 'MI5' used to regularly post such rebuttals under the names of my ex-girlfriends for example. Such references are totally deniable but also wholly unmistakable to the person concerned, and it does imply access to private email accounts. Of course there is the possibility that you are just a random, right-wing poster who coincidentally linked to a friend of mine who helped me report this, but Occams Razor applies.

I know you could right this off as one more 'million to one' hit, but I think you should take full credit for your work and talk honestly, debate the subject in the open for once.

Tell me again what you really know about CIA involvement in Iran that disproves the mainstream US media reports of $400 million destabilisation programs which include US funding of Iranian dissidents and supplies of arms and comms equipment to admitted Iranian terrorists such as the MEK and US - and UK - special forces incursions into Iranian territory.

Assuming these undenied reports are true, how is that moral?

Danny


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A take of two shitties

02.07.2009 13:20

>... in which there is a character, Mr Dick, who has an obsession with King Charles' head. Thus Danny with the CIA and Iran.

Actually, since 2001 I have posted numerous opinions here on various topics, but my main concern was the Afghanistan debacle. Iran is just a related side-issue to me that I happen to know something about.

>Several things are plain.No amount of CIA influence is going to get people out on the streets where they might be shot

That's what I said despite your desperate attempts to misrepresent me.

>[I've read reports that some protestors in Teheran have been hanged].

Yeah, and the Germans in the War to End All Wars cut the breasts off Belgian nuns. Link to the reports or stop the propaganda.

>Further, the worst possible move an opposition movement could do would be to take money from the CIA. If this ever got out,their credibility would be completely destroyed

Well, you are the only person denying the ABC report. Aren't you suspicious that the US didn't deny it?

>Thirdly, the Iranian opposition probably has the same opinion of the CIA as you do. Thus the chance of the CIA influencing the post election turmoil is non existent.

It is certain that this is what they were aiming for though, and it is pitiful that you deny that fact.

>I'm sure you'll still mutter 'destabilsation', 'special forces', '400 million dollars', 'Seymour Hersh' like a record stuck in the groove, but that's all you can do - mutter, since you have no proof or evidence at all.

I have the evidence of many respected mainstream US news reports. And you haven't offered any contradictory evidence or links at al, merely personal smears to anyone who disagrees.

Danny


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Listening with fingers in ears

02.07.2009 13:35

$400 million dollars have been given to the CIA. There is not the slightest shred of evidence that you can produce to say that any of that money was given to Mousavi or any of his supporters on the streets. Without resorting to rhetorical devices such as 'Occam's Razor', GIVE US THE PROOF.

Does the ABC report say the money is going to Mousavi?

Read the words. Take the fingers out of your ears. 'Thus the chance of the CIA influencing the post election turmoil is non existent.' Follow the reasoning.

[PS the idea of MI5 wanting to post here is equally remote]

old mole


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Shaving rash

02.07.2009 13:51

No, I haven't been reading your e-mails. As usual, the U75 characteristics of the conspiracy theorist are bourne out, RE: occam's razor.

As incredibly far-fetched as it sounds Mel Anoma is very complicated pun on melanoma which was a very obscure response to 'old mole'... melanoma being frequently mistaken for moles.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanoma

Occam must be getting pretty stroppy at all these people using his now very dull razor as an excuse for lazy shaving- sorry ran out out good puns.

No denial that the CIA are active in Iran and quite likely the Pentagon too. But Mole does have something of a point in saying that all the CIA money in the world can't buy a revolution, if no one wants to revolt. But every society has its dissdents, so it's hardly a damning revaltion that proves any suspicions of CIA agitation to be ridiculous.

Mole however, does have a point in that all we have is Hersh's word that this is happening. And Hersh relies largely on contacts within the security community for his info, which makes him both potentially trutworthy and very suspecptible to disinformation at the same time.

Without solid evidence, we are just guessing.

Now, I really must get on with sending you messages through the crossword clues in Metro.

Mel Anoma


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a response

02.07.2009 13:59

>This whole "its the CIA" is patronising old colonial nonsense. The poor backward people in these countries cant organise any kind of opposition themselves, they are far too stupid / lazy / whatever, so it must be the CIA. Frankly that is lazy and offensive thinking but seems to be the way of the left - very sad

It is also a complete misrespretation of my actual position. No amount of foriegn intervention can cause serious destablisition without an existing and strong domestic opposition such as exists in Iran and every other place this tactic has been used.

 The first comment wasn’t aimed directly at you Danny, just a general observation on the usual response to most insurrections that appear on here and elsewhere. Similar in its way to the whole development and aid argument, give them lots of things because the poor dears cant manage themselves etc etc.

>Danny really is terrified of the CIA, why?

Because they kill and torture people for no good reason. Because they overthrow legitimate regimes. Because they infiltrate groups under false pretences, are heavily involved in propaganda and have access to most of the communications intercepts of the NSA. It would seem sane to be wary of such a evil and powerful group, and disingenuous to mock such fears.

 Many organizations kill and torture people for no good reason, lots of organizations infiltrate groups under false pretences, sometimes even for the right reasons. It would seem to be sane to know about all of them but not to fear any particular one of them. It is dangerous to assign too much intelligence to the CIA, they are no more competent than many other ‘intelligence’ organizations, which is often not very competent at all. Building them up just increases the fear, and frankly that is the last thing that society needs but exactly what they want. It’s the same in China, a more feared bunch than the PSB and the intelligence service would be hard to find and yet they are one of the most incompetent agencies in real terms that there is. The illusion of power, efficiency and intelligence goes a long way toward keeping the people in their place.

>Yes there probably is lots of money going to them to destabilize places, but the idea that there are CIA agents on the ground in Iran stirring up resistance is laughable. The CIA didn’t have any operatives on the ground in Iraq prior to the invasion, none in Syria, so why should it be any different in Iran?

That is a naive and unsubstantiated assertion but I think you answer your own question. The US invasion of Iraq provided an easy for infiltration into surrounding countries, and not just CIA but actual special force soldiers on the ground. I am quite willing to believe the CIA had only one agent on the ground in Hungary in 56, but agents permanently on the ground isn't the full story.

 It is neither naïve nor unsubstantiated, some fairly light research will lead you to it. The invasion of Iraq was the icing on the cake and really relevant to any destabilizing in Iran, there are many more countries bordering Iran. But I maintain that at best the CIA has supported in a minor way some expat Iranian dissidents, but to say that there has been a major and prolonged attempt at destabilization is simply incorrect. Most of the money has gone on increasing and maintaining remote observation of possible nuclear complexes. And if the results of that are as accurate as they were for Iraq then they won’t be very accurate at all. Which is a good thing, once bitten twice shy and all that.

>Danny there aren’t always monsters under your bed, or armchair.

No, but there is someone posting under the name Raoul Duke which is a clear reference to the journalist who put me in touch with Seymour Hersh while I was investigating Abu Ghraib. A bit creepy, that.

 Don’t worry

All the best Raoul.

raoul Duke


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@ Mel and Mole

02.07.2009 14:15

To Mole:

>$400 million dollars have been given to the CIA.

Yes, thank you for admitting that. More specificially, $400 million extra was given to the CIA to destabilise Iran.

>There is not the slightest shred of evidence that you can produce to say that any of that money was given to Mousavi or any of his supporters on the streets. Without resorting to rhetorical devices such as 'Occam's Razor', GIVE US THE PROOF.

Au contraire, I fully agree with you that very little if any of that money reached Mousavi. Some of it went obviously went to pay for extra arms and comms equipment to the Iranian terrorists, some will have been assigned to extra CIA agents and desk officers etc. A lot of that will still have went into anonymous funding of the legitimate opposition groups as was intended. Now I don't claim that I can prove a single cent went to Mousavi or any other legitimate group as these are current events and I am just an unrelated foriegn punter posting on IM-UK. I have no reason to suspect any genuine opposition group in Iran would accept CIA 'blood money' knowingly, but I do know the source of the funding would be hidden from them and that most opposition groups are eager to accept any funds in a cause they are dedicated to. So I think it is safe to say that a small percentage of that $400 mill did reach Mousavi indirectly, with or without his acceptance.

>Does the ABC report say the money is going to Mousavi?

No, see above reply.

>Read the words. Take the fingers out of your ears. 'Thus the chance of the CIA influencing the post election turmoil is non existent.' Follow the reasoning.

No, I strongly disagree. I am not trying to condemn any of the disparate opposition groups and candiates as CIA stooges, but it is equally wrong for you to claim $400 million can be written off as ineffectual or uninfluencial, or that none of it indirectly reached any group It might not be causal of the dissent, but it can't be written off as uninfluential.

>[PS the idea of MI5 wanting to post here is equally remote]

Since I have personal experience of this then that argument is hollow with me. That is irrelevant to this this argument though so let's ignore it on this thread.


To Melanoma/ Raul Duke:

>No denial that the CIA are active in Iran and quite likely the Pentagon too. But Mole does have something of a point in saying that all the CIA money in the world can't buy a revolution, if no one wants to revolt.

I think we all have agreed with that point so far

>But every society has its dissdents, so it's hardly a damning revaltion that proves any suspicions of CIA agitation to be ridiculous.

Hardly. It only took $1 million for the CIA to successfully overthrow the first Iranian democracy, even with inflation $400 million can't be written off as ridiculous.

>Mole however, does have a point in that all we have is Hersh's word that this is happening. And Hersh relies largely on contacts within the security community for his info, which makes him both potentially trutworthy and very suspecptible to disinformation at the same time.

Hersh admits this could be disinformation, but the fact an uncriticised ABC News report broke the story suggests strongly that he is not.

PS it might help simplify this thread if you stuck to the one name on it.

Danny


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I am only using th eone name

02.07.2009 14:24

life is far too short to post under multiple names

RD

Raoul Duke


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Dr Gonzo

02.07.2009 14:28

Sorry, I'm not Raoul. Personally, I'd have favoured the Gonzo moniker myself.

I'm just here being equidistantly annoying between Danny & Mole. While I can readily beleieve that the CIA are busy making trouble in Tehran, I can also appreciate Mole's point regarding making a meal out of a rumour. Neither position will achieve anything much; but I do find the notion of Mole's that the CIA are out the picture as frankly silly.

It could well be that Hersh & ABC have been used as a conduit for a cheap CIA stunt of puffing themselves up like tom cats- making themselves look bigger and scarier than the truth.

Who knows. All I know is that there is an awful ot of hot air for a vacuum.

And with that I'll bid you all a good day and get on with mine.

Mel Anoma


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Sorry Mel, this is for Raoul

02.07.2009 14:38

>Many organizations kill and torture people for no good reason, lots of organizations infiltrate groups under false pretences, sometimes even for the right reasons.

Please explain what you consider the right reasons to torture people?

>It would seem to be sane to know about all of them but not to fear any particular one of them. It is dangerous to assign too much intelligence to the CIA, they are no more competent than many other ‘intelligence’ organizations, which is often not very competent at all. Building them up just increases the fear, and frankly that is the last thing that society needs but exactly what they want. It’s the same in China, a more feared bunch than the PSB and the intelligence service would be hard to find and yet they are one of the most incompetent agencies in real terms that there is. The illusion of power, efficiency and intelligence goes a long way toward keeping the people in their place.

True, but diminishing or dismissing the true, great and proven threat the security services have proven is to risk innocent lives. It is better to be smeared as paranoid than proven to be careless, from my personal experience.

> It is neither naïve nor unsubstantiated, some fairly light research will lead you to it.

Quite the reverse, Robert Bauer claims to have been active in both Iran and Syria, hence the movie 'Syriania'. There are middle-eastern sources that also back that up.

>The invasion of Iraq was the icing on the cake and really relevant to any destabilizing in Iran, there are many more countries bordering Iran.

I assume that was a untypical typo and you meant 'irrelevant' quite untypical of the Raoul I knew. There is evidence that most or if not all the bordering countries have hosted CIA ops, but increasingly since 2002.

>But I maintain that at best the CIA has supported in a minor way some expat Iranian dissidents, but to say that there has been a major and prolonged attempt at destabilization is simply incorrect. Most of the money has gone on increasing and maintaining remote observation of possible nuclear complexes. And if the results of that are as accurate as they were for Iraq then they won’t be very accurate at all. Which is a good thing, once bitten twice shy and all that.

There is a surfeit of evidence beyond the ABC and New Yorker articles that indicate you are mistaken about that assertion. Beyond that, there is a proven historical record of the CIA and similar in similar situations that we can draw on. I am not convinced either by your arguments or identity.

Danny


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Iranian elections

02.07.2009 15:06

In many ways, I couldn't care less about who 'won' the Iranian elections - the two candidates were Tweedledee and Tweedledum, both approved by the Ayatollahs as safe candidates. Was there fraud? I've no idea. No one in the West has a clue. If the ellections were rigged, then the riggers will know, and that's about all.

Mousavi's supporters think the elections were rigged, so take to the streets. The regime's reaction? Beating people up, imprisoning them, shooting them.

What is really nauseating is to see the likes of Chuckman, Lendman, and Danny. They maintain quite firmly that there was no fraud, that it's all down to Amerikka ...one can imagine their reaction if demonstrators were shot down by Bush or Blair. And yet, as to the suppression of the protests in Iran, not a word of condemnation. As far they are concerned, the regime in Teheran can do nothing wrong - even shoot their own people on the streets - and why? Because they know the regime is firmly anti-American. That card is a GET OUT OF JAIL FREE card - and, as I said, it's nauseating.

old mole


Wow wow wow

02.07.2009 15:36

Where did all this paranoia/finger pointing came from? we are All CIA/Mossad/Aliens!
We all know that the Americans like to meddle with things they shouldn't, we all know they like to fund one group against another. but this is much much more complicated then this. they would have contingency plans for all possible outcomes, they will have field agents on both sides, and probably on Indymedia too. so what?

The CIA likes to have it's hands in all pies. but that does not mean that this is not a genuine revolution in Iran.
I for one welcome a policy of inciting revolutions, the Iranian revolution must be a good thing,even if this guy is a US puppet, the people are getting hands on experience with over throwing a regime, if this one turns sour, then everyone knows what needs to be done. I have no illusions, it will turn sour, not because of US involvement, but because of the nature of governments.

Now then. this paranoia thing, of accusing everyone of being some secret agent, i see it a lot recently, and it's extremely unhealthy. we are scared of our own shadow, and it's paralysing our movement. are there loads of secret agents on these blogs? maybe! but we should not let this distract us, we cannot afford to. we are a growing movement, and one which is begining to gain political weight, and that scares a lot of people. the fact that it is meddles with by the CIA or whom ever should not blind us, and in time, those agencies are going to screw up and expose themselves, because they are not as clever as they think they are. so... on this one issue, we actually are in agreement with the CIA's policy, that is of a people's (left) revolution! If the lives of people are going to improve after this, then all the best, if not, well... revolutions are something that will have to be repeated indefinitely until we overthrow governments for good.

We all know these blogs are monitored, that is a given! to what extent they play with us? well this is on an individual level, some people have their entire lives looked at and controlled, where as others have absolutely no intervention. but by large, we are over paranoid! we are growing exponentially, and we are playing politics, this is the dirtiest game in town, and as such will have meddling with. but we are not a serious threat to the statues quo. and let's not give in to this illusion.

The US is playing a part in the Iranian revolution, as they did in Vietnam, as they did in 911, that is not to say it's official US policy, but rather a small interest group somewhere in a dark office, which may well be a CIA office. but their hierarchy is not fool proof, and some things that happen in a small office never reach the top. the CIA is a huge and bolky organisation, it plays many games that sometimes conflict with one another without even knowing it.

I don't claim to know more about them them then the next person, it's all common sense. yes we are in the midst of a cold war, and yes, there are some very powerful interest groups involved (unofficialy). and every once in a while one of them exposes themselves, like that guy from plane stupid, I am sure that shell will be monitoring these blogs, that the Israeli govt. will, that the police and so on, but they are powerless, because it is our agenda and our convictions that guide us, not some political self serving interest. we all know that overthrowing a government that tortures people is a good thing, we all know that immigration controls needs to be lifted, we all know that all wars must end, and that one's poverty is a product of another's wealth, if we keep on working towards these mutual aims, then all the interference they have will serve for nothing, and at times (like in Iran) will actually serve our interests!

And another thing, I welcome a CIA intervention in overthrowing the UK government too :)

Wait a minute
- Homepage: http://q


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IM Censor

02.07.2009 16:24

"i you ahve a tiny mind, you are out of it. "

Path-fucking-etic editting.

Danny


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Since when did security services influence IM-UK?

02.07.2009 16:53

I know all about the Belgian paedo police informer in IM-Scotland, but when did they get to IM-UK?

Danny
- Homepage: http://www0.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/07/433643.html?c=all


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Where were the guidleines broken in these hidden posts?

02.07.2009 16:56

How dare Indymedia UK claim to be 'independent journalism' when the editors follow the agenda of a foriegn state? Can you at least hide all my previous posts here so I personally am not associated with a corrupted project?

Danny


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A modicum of responsibility

02.07.2009 16:58

Would the IMCista(s) responsible for hiding this thread care to point me to whatever 'list' the decision to censor this thread was taken on?

Danny
- Homepage: http://www0.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/07/433643.html?c=all


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HOPOI

02.07.2009 18:03


HOPOI = TROLL 14.06.2009 21.14
so you think Hopoi is a secret service funded troll website and call its supporters fascist? Really? So sad that these people who risk thier lives and give of themselves for freedom can be so readily dismissed

Yes, and I've checked with the genuine Iranian dissidents that I know. Some of them agree with your arguments but all of them disagree with you veiled call-for-war. I get £120 a fortnight (sometimes) for arguing here. What are you getting paid?
Danny  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/world/2009/06/432257.html?c=on>

Oscar Zeta A Ciaista
- Homepage: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/world/2009/06/432257.html?c=on>


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Now you come back with that?

02.07.2009 18:39

"never read such a load of shit in my life -call yourself anarchist? socialist? communist?"

is a fascistic manipulative 'with us or against us statement' and I called the pro-CIA poster who stated that a troll. It is a non-argument, without substance and typical propaganda.

What is far more worrying is why the rest of this thread had been hidden, why a crap comment like the 'bonkers' one was left alone, and why you finally choose to debate that point now.

Whoever is doing the admin just now is damaged goods imo, and that is important because I am not the only activist who can proved they have been grassed up to the police by an IMCista. Of course, IM-UK used to blame that on IM Scotland - while refusing to investigate further.

Danny
- Homepage: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/07/433643.html?c=all


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So IM-UK are working for a CIA coup in the UK?

02.07.2009 18:53

>And another thing, I welcome a CIA intervention in overthrowing the UK government too :)

A smiley face makes that dross pleasnt and acceptable?
That sums up your pathetic post, as if the UK government were in any way free from US control. Again though, what is much worse, is that your post is allowed to stand when the rest of the thread is hidden.

Danny


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or was it Glenrothes

02.07.2009 20:09

with a nod and a wink

Kircaldy


Deliberate repost - Indepedence from America

02.07.2009 20:19

Crucifying democracy

02.07.2009 09:48
Personally, I am as unhappy living under US rule as I would have been under the USSR and can see little difference in those states morality. I think anyone who fights against their own government should be supported are less like Hungarians in 1956 and more like Finns or Latvians 15 years previous to that who fought with the Nazis against the USSR.

There have been reports that the CIA crucified a prisoner at Abu Ghraib, which stem from a recent New Yorker report which I'll quote below. Crucifixion is an emotive term in the West since Jesus was killed that way, and I'm sure the CIA didn't consider their execution a crucifixion. They didn't put nails through the prisoners hands or hang them from a cross. The more accurate term for this sort of tortuous slaying is 'strappado', where a prisoner has their hands tied behind their back and then raised off the floor by a rope tied to their hands. All the body weight is then placed on the arms and shoulders. Frankly, if I was going to survive I'd rather be crucified, although if I was certain to die then strappado will bring a quicker death. So the word crucifixion may be emotive but the CIA killing is no less barbaric.

"
The C.I.A. has apparently done nothing to penalize the officer who oversaw one of the most notorious renditions—that of a German car salesman named Khaled el-Masri. He was abducted while on a holiday in Macedonia, and flown by the agency to Afghanistan, where he was detained in a dungeon for five months without charges, before being released. From the start, the rendition team suspected that his case was one of mistaken identity. But the C.I.A. officer in charge at Langley—the agency asked that the officer’s name be withheld—insisted that Masri be further interrogated. “She just looked in her crystal ball and it said that he was bad,” a colleague recalls. Masri says that he was chained in a freezing cell with no bed, and given water so putrid that he could smell it across the room. He was threatened and stripped, and could hear other detainees crying all around him. After several weeks, the C.I.A. officer in charge learned that Masri’s German passport was not a forgery, as was originally suspected, and that he was not the terror suspect the agency thought he was. (The names were similar.) Even so, the officer in charge refused to release him. Eventually, Masri went on a hunger strike, losing sixty pounds. Skeptics in the agency went directly over the officer’s head to Tenet, who realized that his agency had been brutalizing an innocent man. Masri was released after a hundred and forty-nine days. But the officer in charge was not disciplined; in fact, a former colleague says, “she’s been promoted—twice.” Masri, meanwhile, has been unable to sue the U.S. government for either an apology or damages, because the courts consider the very existence of rendition a state secret—a position that the Obama Justice Department has so far supported.

No criminal charges have ever been brought against any C.I.A. officer involved in the torture program, despite the fact that at least three prisoners interrogated by agency personnel died as the result of mistreatment. In the first case, an unnamed detainee under C.I.A. supervision in Afghanistan froze to death after having been chained, naked, to a concrete floor overnight. The body was buried in an unmarked grave. In the second case, an Iraqi prisoner named Manadel al-Jamadi died on November 4, 2003, while being interrogated by the C.I.A. at Abu Ghraib prison, outside Baghdad. A forensic examiner found that he had essentially been crucified; he died from asphyxiation after having been hung by his arms, in a hood, and suffering broken ribs. Military pathologists classified the case a homicide. A third prisoner died after an interrogation in which a C.I.A. officer participated, though the officer evidently did not cause the death. (Several other detainees have disappeared and remain unaccounted for, according to Human Rights Watch.)

During his tenure at the C.I.A., John Helgerson, the former inspector general, forwarded the crucifixion case, along with an estimated half-dozen other incidents, to the Justice Department, for possible prosecution. But the case files have languished. An official familiar with the cases told me that the agency has deflected inquiries by the Senate Intelligence Committee seeking information about any internal disciplinary action.
"
Bear in mind that the deaths mentioned here are solely the identified CIA murders at Abu Ghraib, and are a tiny fraction of all the murdered prisoners killed by other US forces there and in the rest of Iraq and Afghanistan, where there at least a hundred and possibly thousands of similar murdered prisoners.

I think any Iranian dissident or their supporters have to recognise that the CIA is at least as evil as the Iranian state, and arguably far worse given it's greater number of victims and it's global reach. To jump from a theocracy back to a CIA puppet state is retrograde and Iranians who have accepted their share of the $400 million CIA destabilisation cash are effectively working for the global SAVAK. As to the many posts calling for 'support Iranian workers', during the $1million CIA coup in 1953 which overthrew Iranian democracy the communists played a key role in destabilising the President through CIA sponsored strikes, thus ushering in a dictator who went on to slaughter them ruthlessly.

Danny
 http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/22/090622fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=6

Danny


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One of the best adverts there is ...

03.07.2009 19:36

you know, Danny, you are one of the best adverts around for our present system of government.

In the usssr, which you appear to prefer, there would be no Indymedia, no Internet, no computers [they never did produce a decent microprocessor]; indeed, it's unlikely you'd even be allowed a typewriter. Given your stroppy attitude, your chances of ending up in internal exile,like Sakharov, or a gulag, like Korolev, would be quite high.

You never miss freedoms until you lose them. The freedom of reporters to write what they like with no fear of retribution. The freedom of idiots like Lendman to write bonkers articles. No tanks on the streets. No gulags. Unless, of course, you approve of gulags ...

old mole


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to the mole

04.07.2009 10:10

>In the usssr, which you appear to prefer

I'll assume you are just trying to misrepresent me and that your reading skills are better your writing. "Personally, I am as unhappy living under US rule as I would have been under the USSR and can see little difference in those states morality"

>In the usssr, ...there would be ...no computers [they never did produce a decent microprocessor]

Of course they had computers and equivalent microprocessors. In the 80's Hungarian supercomputers were comparable to any US one, perhaps unsurprising since that is where Von Neumann was schooled. Don't let facts interfere with your propaganda though.
I'd designed a IEEE 1014-1987 board when I was a teenager and the CIA phoned me at work to warn me not to export it to Hungary or I'd be arrested. I told them to fuck off and hung up, as I assumed it was a wind-up. They phoned back a minute later and asked to speak to my manager. They claimed the relays I used were prohibited for export to Eastern bloc countries. This was ridiculous as they were just switches, easy to manufacture and even easier to smuggle, and the notion the Soviets would pay about £2000 to get their hands on about £20 worth of standard components was insane. What was interesting though is that the CIA knew my component list, which only a few people in my office would've, and that they knew it was going to be exported to Hungary, a fact I didn't even know.

Still, I think whoever posted the Lendman article distracted by adding the Telegraph cartoon since Lendman doesn't mention Hungary or Czechoslovakia, those are simply examples that the Telegraph feel safe in condemning. The post-Soviet 'color-revolutions' are far closer to what is happening in Iran, the Saffron revolution in Burma being the closest in effect. None of them compare to what has happened in Iran though. Apart from the 2007 $400million CIA destabilisation programme, which includes arms, equipment and cash to terrorist groups, the NED have been been providing funding Iranian programs since 1990.

One good thing about these failed Iranian protests is that they have given a human face to the demonised Iranians in the US media, which should make it far harder for the US to bomb them in future.

Danny
- Homepage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democracy#Iran


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