The Great Divide-Iran and Leftists
Gary Sudborough | 28.06.2009 18:40 | Anti-militarism | World
A discussion of the possible reasons for the great divergence of opinion among leftists about the situation in Iran
There seems to be a great divergence of opinion among liberals and leftists about what is really happening in Iran. There are those who think Iran is in somewhat of a vacuum and is only trying to have a democratic election against theocracy and a repressive attitude to women's rights. Other leftists think because the Bush administration in the past had contemplated military action and also covert actions by the CIA against Iran that these facts, among others, argue for an attempted coup taking place, especially given the enormous number of successful and unsuccessful CIA coups which have occurred in the past 60 years. I have an excellent book entitled Killing Hope-US military and CIA interventions since World War 2 by William Blum. I would say that the only countries or continents not to have at least CIA spies in them would be places like Greenland or Antarctica that have little interest for multinational corporations because they are covered with huge ice sheets. Of course, this could change with global warming. You might be served a burger and fries by an Eskimo at the grand opening of McDonalds in Greenland.
Noam Chomsky seems to want to take a middle ground and say that no elections in the US or Iran are really democratic because in the United States only the very wealthy get to choose those candidates who are to run and in Iran it is the clerics who decide the question. He is correct, of course, but that does not solve the problem of whether the CIA and US covert actions are being used in Iran.
Norman Solomon, a leftist writer for Common Dreams and other publications, had an article titled "Full Spectrum Idiocy- the GOP and Hugo Chavez." One of the points of his article is that anyone who thinks like Hugo Chavez and suspects a CIA-instigated attempt to overthrow the Iranian government is an idiot. This is somewhat belligerent. When I wrote my article about Iran entitled: " Iran- Amnesia, Ignorance or Stupidity," and gave my reasons why I suspected CIA involvement in Iran, I at least didn't call those with differing ideas idiots, but gave them three choices, all of which are better than idiot. Hugo Chavez has already suffered one CIA -backed coup in April 2002 in which a portion of the Venezuelan military arrested him, imprisoned him on a military base and installed a Chamber of Commerce man named Pedro Carmona as President of Venezuela. Pro-Chavez supporters in the thousands stormed the Presidential Palace, removed Pedro Carmona and in a while Hugo Chavez was released from military custody, during which he said two uniformed military men from the United States took part. Is Hugo Chavez an idiot or paranoid for suspecting that CIA coups have been perpetrated or are presently taking place in other countries, having experienced one himself? I think he is being perfectly rational, especially since Ahmadinejad is a man like himself in certain respects. Both Ahmadinejad and Hugo Chavez are spending the profits from the sale of oil to improve the lives of the poor in their respective countries.The ruling class of the United States hate this situation. They would rather have the rich in power in other countries so that American corporations can move in, privatize the oil and all other corporations, privatize health care and any benefits like Social Security for the poor and establish sweatshops with no recognition of worker's rights, unions, safety regulations in the workplace or product quality and safety. In other words, they want what Michael Parenti calls a client state government. I call it a puppet government. As Michael Parenti has said: "There is only one thing the rich have always wanted and that is everything."
I have discovered a very interesting thing about Venezuela. The CIA is still organizing coups against Hugo Chavez. The Cato Institute, a right wing think tank in the United States, recently paid an anti-Chavez student organizer a half a million dollars to stir up trouble against Chavez. It is called the Milton Friedman Award, but let's get real. This is nothing more than a bribe to help overthrow a democratically elected government. The student's name is Yon Goicoechea. I couldn't get a break in remembering this name by having him called Juan Gonzalez or some other easy name. If I had accepted money from a foreign government, let us say the Soviet Union when it was in existence, to overthrow the government of the United States, I would be classed as a traitor and either executed or would be spending a lot of time behind bars, probably in solitary confinement. However, Yon Goicoechea is now in Mexico from certain reports and probably spending his half an million dollars and enjoying himself immensely. Is Hugo Chavez an idiot for thinking that perhaps Iranian students, like Venezuelan students in Venezuela, are being paid money by US institutions to foment revolution in Iran? I think not and believe the real idiot to be Norman Solomon.
Another very prominent leftist in the United States is Michael Moore. He is a man who has done great work with movies like Roger and Me, Fahrenheit 9-11, and Sicko, with a new movie coming out in October on all the thefts and frauds committed by the banks and financial institutions of the United States that have contributed to the present world-wide depression. I give him enormous credit for at least keeping track of the carnage in Iraq and Afghanistan and posting on his web site the news of the latest US drone strikes that have killed numerous civilians in Pakistan and Afghanistan. However, he is another who sees the situation in Iran in isolation and thinks it is all about democracy. Michael Moore has long been a union man and I believe it was his father or another relative who was involved in the famous sit down strike at General Motors in the 1930s. I, too, have long held a passionate affinity for unions. Some of the earliest books I read were about the IWW in the United States and their heroes like Joe Hill, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn and Big Bill Haywood. I am just speculating here, but I think one of the things which swayed Michael's opinion on Iran was that the bus drivers union came out in support of the protesters and threatened a strike. The real tragedy here is that unions in other countries have often been infiltrated by the CIA.
In Latin America there was an organization called The American Institute for Free Labor Development. It was ostensibly run by the AFL-CIO, but was funded almost exclusively by the Agency for International Development and was an instrument of the CIA. One of its missions was to teach the unions in Latin America to be virulently anti-communist and to help with strikes any coups that the CIA was organizing in Latin America. Consequently, it is a big mistake to think that unions are always on the moral, just and democratic side of an issue.
One of the greatest problems that I perceive confuses many Americans, including many leftists, is a separation in their brain between domestic and foreign events. Most Americans realize the effects of capitalism at home. After all, in just the last 30 years there have been the scandals of the sub prime mortgage swindle by the banks, the Enron debacle where some people in California actually lost their lives due to planned blackouts, the accounting crimes of Arthur Andersen and others, which caused stocks to be greatly overvalued and led to a stock market crash and finally to the great savings and loan theft, which cost every American family approximately 5,000 dollars to remedy. They, also, realize that a great deal of their tax money is going to the very rich people who robbed them in the first place. The amazing thing is that these same Americans often believe that their foreign policy is motivated by humanitarian and democratic concerns, instead of the greed and avarice they experience at home. They point to the humanitarian aid given to other countries. Incidentally, much of this so-called humanitarian aid is actually money to build the roads and ports so that American corporations can make even more profit by not having to pay for these expenses. What American aid there is in terms of food, medicine and other things which are truly humanitarian is very miserly, especially since the demise of the Soviet Union, when there was obviously a competition between the countries. Now, US humanitarian aid is near the bottom in terms of that aid given by the other industrialized countries. Americans, also, point to the Marshall plan to rebuild Europe. That was obviously meant to prevent all the countries of western Europe from going communist because most of the resistance movements against German fascism in those countries were lead by communists. Finally, there is the American fascination with the "good war." I am speaking of World War 2, when American forces actually did fight on the right side against German and Japanese fascism. They relate that to other wars and think the United States is always correct when it decides to intervene in other countries.
Finally, let us return to the question of why if domestic policy in the United States is determined by very wealthy capitalists, why that same greed and desire for profits and power should not also extend to foreign countries? Those who own a country also control the repressive apparatus of the state. In other words, the police, army and the national security apparatus are in the control of the capitalists. If one doubts this fact, look at the history of Europe. Weren't nearly all the wars caused by the territorial and monetary aspirations of the rich nobles and kings? Does one notice any massive demonstrations by the poor for a war which does not benefit them in the least? Consequently, if the ruling class of the United States control the armed forces would they not use that army to satisfy the same hunger for wealth and power which they exhibit at home? I believe the answer is an emphatic yes, and all those leftists who believe the United States is not involved in the least in Iran are dead wrong.
Going to very popular leftist web sites and finding myself seemingly all alone in this opinion, I was very despairing that people who understood capitalism could not understand its consequences, namely imperialism. Now, I see that Paul Craig Roberts, Phil Wilayto, James Petras and others have joined me in my opinion. Michael Parenti once called the CIA, "Capitalism's International Army," and I couldn't express the situation any better.
Noam Chomsky seems to want to take a middle ground and say that no elections in the US or Iran are really democratic because in the United States only the very wealthy get to choose those candidates who are to run and in Iran it is the clerics who decide the question. He is correct, of course, but that does not solve the problem of whether the CIA and US covert actions are being used in Iran.
Norman Solomon, a leftist writer for Common Dreams and other publications, had an article titled "Full Spectrum Idiocy- the GOP and Hugo Chavez." One of the points of his article is that anyone who thinks like Hugo Chavez and suspects a CIA-instigated attempt to overthrow the Iranian government is an idiot. This is somewhat belligerent. When I wrote my article about Iran entitled: " Iran- Amnesia, Ignorance or Stupidity," and gave my reasons why I suspected CIA involvement in Iran, I at least didn't call those with differing ideas idiots, but gave them three choices, all of which are better than idiot. Hugo Chavez has already suffered one CIA -backed coup in April 2002 in which a portion of the Venezuelan military arrested him, imprisoned him on a military base and installed a Chamber of Commerce man named Pedro Carmona as President of Venezuela. Pro-Chavez supporters in the thousands stormed the Presidential Palace, removed Pedro Carmona and in a while Hugo Chavez was released from military custody, during which he said two uniformed military men from the United States took part. Is Hugo Chavez an idiot or paranoid for suspecting that CIA coups have been perpetrated or are presently taking place in other countries, having experienced one himself? I think he is being perfectly rational, especially since Ahmadinejad is a man like himself in certain respects. Both Ahmadinejad and Hugo Chavez are spending the profits from the sale of oil to improve the lives of the poor in their respective countries.The ruling class of the United States hate this situation. They would rather have the rich in power in other countries so that American corporations can move in, privatize the oil and all other corporations, privatize health care and any benefits like Social Security for the poor and establish sweatshops with no recognition of worker's rights, unions, safety regulations in the workplace or product quality and safety. In other words, they want what Michael Parenti calls a client state government. I call it a puppet government. As Michael Parenti has said: "There is only one thing the rich have always wanted and that is everything."
I have discovered a very interesting thing about Venezuela. The CIA is still organizing coups against Hugo Chavez. The Cato Institute, a right wing think tank in the United States, recently paid an anti-Chavez student organizer a half a million dollars to stir up trouble against Chavez. It is called the Milton Friedman Award, but let's get real. This is nothing more than a bribe to help overthrow a democratically elected government. The student's name is Yon Goicoechea. I couldn't get a break in remembering this name by having him called Juan Gonzalez or some other easy name. If I had accepted money from a foreign government, let us say the Soviet Union when it was in existence, to overthrow the government of the United States, I would be classed as a traitor and either executed or would be spending a lot of time behind bars, probably in solitary confinement. However, Yon Goicoechea is now in Mexico from certain reports and probably spending his half an million dollars and enjoying himself immensely. Is Hugo Chavez an idiot for thinking that perhaps Iranian students, like Venezuelan students in Venezuela, are being paid money by US institutions to foment revolution in Iran? I think not and believe the real idiot to be Norman Solomon.
Another very prominent leftist in the United States is Michael Moore. He is a man who has done great work with movies like Roger and Me, Fahrenheit 9-11, and Sicko, with a new movie coming out in October on all the thefts and frauds committed by the banks and financial institutions of the United States that have contributed to the present world-wide depression. I give him enormous credit for at least keeping track of the carnage in Iraq and Afghanistan and posting on his web site the news of the latest US drone strikes that have killed numerous civilians in Pakistan and Afghanistan. However, he is another who sees the situation in Iran in isolation and thinks it is all about democracy. Michael Moore has long been a union man and I believe it was his father or another relative who was involved in the famous sit down strike at General Motors in the 1930s. I, too, have long held a passionate affinity for unions. Some of the earliest books I read were about the IWW in the United States and their heroes like Joe Hill, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn and Big Bill Haywood. I am just speculating here, but I think one of the things which swayed Michael's opinion on Iran was that the bus drivers union came out in support of the protesters and threatened a strike. The real tragedy here is that unions in other countries have often been infiltrated by the CIA.
In Latin America there was an organization called The American Institute for Free Labor Development. It was ostensibly run by the AFL-CIO, but was funded almost exclusively by the Agency for International Development and was an instrument of the CIA. One of its missions was to teach the unions in Latin America to be virulently anti-communist and to help with strikes any coups that the CIA was organizing in Latin America. Consequently, it is a big mistake to think that unions are always on the moral, just and democratic side of an issue.
One of the greatest problems that I perceive confuses many Americans, including many leftists, is a separation in their brain between domestic and foreign events. Most Americans realize the effects of capitalism at home. After all, in just the last 30 years there have been the scandals of the sub prime mortgage swindle by the banks, the Enron debacle where some people in California actually lost their lives due to planned blackouts, the accounting crimes of Arthur Andersen and others, which caused stocks to be greatly overvalued and led to a stock market crash and finally to the great savings and loan theft, which cost every American family approximately 5,000 dollars to remedy. They, also, realize that a great deal of their tax money is going to the very rich people who robbed them in the first place. The amazing thing is that these same Americans often believe that their foreign policy is motivated by humanitarian and democratic concerns, instead of the greed and avarice they experience at home. They point to the humanitarian aid given to other countries. Incidentally, much of this so-called humanitarian aid is actually money to build the roads and ports so that American corporations can make even more profit by not having to pay for these expenses. What American aid there is in terms of food, medicine and other things which are truly humanitarian is very miserly, especially since the demise of the Soviet Union, when there was obviously a competition between the countries. Now, US humanitarian aid is near the bottom in terms of that aid given by the other industrialized countries. Americans, also, point to the Marshall plan to rebuild Europe. That was obviously meant to prevent all the countries of western Europe from going communist because most of the resistance movements against German fascism in those countries were lead by communists. Finally, there is the American fascination with the "good war." I am speaking of World War 2, when American forces actually did fight on the right side against German and Japanese fascism. They relate that to other wars and think the United States is always correct when it decides to intervene in other countries.
Finally, let us return to the question of why if domestic policy in the United States is determined by very wealthy capitalists, why that same greed and desire for profits and power should not also extend to foreign countries? Those who own a country also control the repressive apparatus of the state. In other words, the police, army and the national security apparatus are in the control of the capitalists. If one doubts this fact, look at the history of Europe. Weren't nearly all the wars caused by the territorial and monetary aspirations of the rich nobles and kings? Does one notice any massive demonstrations by the poor for a war which does not benefit them in the least? Consequently, if the ruling class of the United States control the armed forces would they not use that army to satisfy the same hunger for wealth and power which they exhibit at home? I believe the answer is an emphatic yes, and all those leftists who believe the United States is not involved in the least in Iran are dead wrong.
Going to very popular leftist web sites and finding myself seemingly all alone in this opinion, I was very despairing that people who understood capitalism could not understand its consequences, namely imperialism. Now, I see that Paul Craig Roberts, Phil Wilayto, James Petras and others have joined me in my opinion. Michael Parenti once called the CIA, "Capitalism's International Army," and I couldn't express the situation any better.
Gary Sudborough
e-mail:
IconoclastGS@aol.com
Comments
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all very well put
28.06.2009 20:40
to argue that there are only two views on this is weak
to argue that because the CIA may be involved the entire movement is a front is facile
snoman
The gatekeepers: Foundations fund phony 'left' media
29.06.2009 07:24
The gatekeepers: Foundations fund phony 'left' media (published in 2005)
excerpt:
"The causes of the Left gatekeeper phenomenon are, no doubt, complex. It may be that, because of their political marginalization, writers on the Left tend to be more defensive about their credibility. Furthermore, many Left publications are dependent on foundation funding, and those relationships may compromise objectivity on conscious and unconscious levels. It is also probable that many left icons are co-opted by covert disinformation programs such as Operation Mockingbird that target the Left media precisely because people expect challenges to the official story to come from that quarter."
Shiu Hung
Homepage: http://911review.com/denial/gatekeepers.html
a couple of points
29.06.2009 08:42
The CIA are in Greenland, the US had a cold war listening base there. Recently they've been using the Narsarsuaq airport for rendition flights.
The CIA are in Iran, we don't have to speculate about that from other similar destabilisations, the 2007 $400 million Presidential Finding was leaked both to ABC and Seymour Hersh in detail.
I agree with Snomans "to argue that because the CIA may be involved the entire movement is a front is facile", however no one has argued that, so it is more strawman than snowman. Recognising the fact that the CIA +are+ involved in Iran means we are able to better able to deconstruct some of the obvious propaganda.
Danny
So Craig Murray is a CIA stooge?
29.06.2009 09:31
Iran
For me, any sensible discussion of Iran must accept a number of facts. I will set these out as Set A and Set B. Both sets are true. But ideologues of the right routinely discount Set A, while ideologues of the left routinely discount Set B. That is why most debate on Iran is inane.
Set A
Iranian Islamic fundamentalism allied to fierce anti-Americanism was born from CIA intervention to topple democracy and keep in power a ruthless murdering despot for decades, in the interests of US oil and gas companies
Iranian anti-Americanism was fuelled further by US support for US friend and ally Saddam Hussein who was armed to wage a murderous war against Iran, again in the hope of US access to Iran's oil and gas
The US committed a terrible atrocity against civilians by shooting down an Iranian passenger jet
Iran is surrounded by US military forces and has been repeatedly threatened to the extent that the desire to develop a nuclear weapon is a reflex
There is monumental hypocrisy in condemning Iran's nuclear programme while overlooking Israel's nuclear weapons
Set B
Iran is governed by an appalling set of vicious theocratic nutters
Iran is not any kind of democracy. It fails the first hurdle of candidates being allowed to put forward meaningful alternatives
Hanging of gays, stoning of adulterers, floggings, censorship and pervasive control are not fine because of cultural relativism. Iran's whole legislative basis is inimical to universal ideals of human rights.
Iran really is trying to develop a nuclear weapons programme, though with some years still to go.
There are two very good articles on the current situation in Iran. One from the ever excellent Juan Cole. I would accept his judgement on the elections being rigged.
http://www.juancole.com/2009/06/class-v-culture-wars-in-iranian.html#comments
The other from Yasamine Mather, which puts it in another perspective.
http://www.hopoi.org/articles/elections%20June%202009.html
I am not optimistic about the outcome of the popular protest."
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/06/iran.html#comments
Or is it just the case that too many saddos on this site reach automatically for the CIA/MI5 smear, because they can't defend their emotional response in any logical manner... let alone resolve the hypocrisy created by defending one tyranny over another.
From the Politburo
Who mentioned Murray?
29.06.2009 14:39
Danny
its a learning curve
29.06.2009 19:19
pedagogy
Who, what, why, where, when?
29.06.2009 20:13
Silly boy.
From the Politburo
want to know more
29.06.2009 20:40
interested
Why Murray was lacking and why you were trolling
29.06.2009 21:24
"I thought Craig Murray's argument was plausible but someone says it is missing key points and is mostly supposition- please tell me what points he is missing and which bits are the supposition ?"
The main point Murrays article is missing is the fact that we know the CIA have just spent $400 million dollars destablising Iran. It is hardly an irrelevant or unknown point, having been broadcast on prime-time US TV news soon after without any denial.
The main supposition, without supporting evidence is Murrays assurance that "Iran really is trying to develop a nuclear weapons programme". Since the IAEA have no evidence of that then I am not taking Murray word for that - that is his uninformed opinion, nothing more.
Another major flaw in his article is the "
Iran is not any kind of democracy. It fails the first hurdle of candidates being allowed to put forward meaningful alternatives. Hanging of gays, stoning of adulterers, floggings, censorship and pervasive control are not fine because of cultural relativism. Iran's whole legislative basis is inimical to universal ideals of human rights."
That is arguable philosophically, since at various times the Islamic world has led the world in terms of human rights and decency, plus it is negligent in failing to compare vilified Iran with the far worse behaviour and far less democratic allies of the UK and US like Saudi Arabian monarchy, the UAE monarchies etc.
Danny
Speak as you find
29.06.2009 23:31
Anyway, sounds like you are just as bellicose as the USA in your stance:
"it is negligent in failing to compare vilified Iran with the far worse behaviour and far less democratic allies of the UK and US like Saudi Arabian monarchy, the UAE monarchies etc."
Sounds like you'd like to bomb the entire Arabian Peninsula instead of Iran?
I'm sure your moral relativism is of great comfort to the homosexuals who are stoned to death and the dissidents who disappear in the night. You think they will be saying to themselves pensively "Well at least I am being executed (extrajudicially) in a relatively better society than Waziristan"... not.
You would be a lot more plausible and a lot less ridiculous if you didn't behave like the Ayahtolla's biggest fan- with the world's biggest set of blinkers.
Unless of course you are a CIA operative working here to make everyone who opposes the CIA look like morons?
Because I seriously doubt that many people on Indymedia support the principles and behaviour of the Islamic Republic, and aren't crazy enough to think that opposing the regime equates to loving the CIA.
From the Politburo
Murderous, anti-american, CIA scum
30.06.2009 00:05
>Sounds like you'd like to bomb the entire Arabian Peninsula instead of Iran?
That is called 'framing the argument' , a standard CIA tactic inherent in most of our 'free' media.
No I don't want to bomb the entire Arabian Peninsula. I would like to point out Iran is Arabic, just to undo some of the vile nonsense you are spreading.
"I'm sure your moral relativism is of great comfort to the homosexuals who are stoned to death and the dissidents who disappear in the night."
"You would be a lot more plausible and a lot less ridiculous if you didn't behave like the Ayahtolla's biggest fan- with the world's biggest set of blinkers."
And you would be a lot more plausible if you hadn't just turned up last week, used false smears against anyone who disagreed with you, while trying too obviously to deny the proven CIA involvement in a $400 million dollar coup. Do you seriously think ABC TV lied about that to the US public without a presidential denial. You are trying to smear me for repeating what is already established, and you are trying to do that anonymously. I want to repeat this - the evil that killed Neda, the stupidity that killed Neda, that was the CIA, and that was you.
>Because I seriously doubt that many people on Indymedia support the principles and behaviour of the Islamic Republic, and aren't crazy enough to think that opposing the regime equates to loving the CIA.
I am afraid I have more anti-Mullah credentials than anyone here. I od have a history of saying certain posters here are security services. I will add your last few 'anonymous' posts to that list of disinformation. For me, you are a welcome public reminder than the AmeriNazis didn't appear or disaapear with Bush.
Guess what though? Your coup in Iran has failed and your coup in Honduras is about to fail. This is not 'the new american century' and pretty soon US war-criminals like you will be facing an american noose. You lost, badly.
Danny
Typo
30.06.2009 00:26
Grrr, obvious CIA trolls here do make me so angry that I can barely type.
Danny
Ego sum
30.06.2009 08:00
Please concentrate on what people are actually saying. Do you generally have a tendency to hear & see things that are 180 degrees flipped from what is actually there? Iran is obviously Persian / Farsi and the point being made is that you seem to sound just like a NeoCon hawk in your monologue against the Islamic dictatorships in Arabia.
But this really isn't much of a discussion when I have to do all your work for you. If you can't be bothered to make the effort, don't pretend to doing anything other than ranting at yourself and interspersing ridiculously paranoid accusation of being CIA as a diversion.
You seem to be conflating at least more than one person. Do you see conspiracies everywhere around you? In your daily life? You see. Making insinuations about you is as cheap and pointless and as much of a big wast of Indymedia's times as your self-important but uninformed lazy ramblings and clichéd tactics of calling everyone an agent.
All of which, I'll take to be a big effort to admit you have no answer to anything I said; that you really are the Ayatolla's bestest buddy; that your self-appointed status of judge on which homophobic tyranny is defensible is indefensible; that an anarchist can't credibly attack the CIA without also attacking the regime in Iran- it's hardly anything approaching democratic & free there is it?; that all in all you really are only here defending your own ego, which is more important to you than the people of Iran, Saudi, Emirates or even the American victims of the CIA itself- you seem to be curiously bound to idea that national borders are natural for an anarchist.
FYI, people make themselves angry. It's an internal reaction to an external stimulus. Seems like you take as much ownership of your own actions as you do you own opinions.
From the Politburo
interested
30.06.2009 09:02
Sounds like you are the kind of person who appreciates, the whole story and not some sanitised polarised propaganda. It's the telling of the whole story (instead of pretending that Iran is some kind of utopia where no-one is being crushed by a theocratic dictatorship) that Danny ironically regards to be lacking.
For people like Danny (aand yes there are a few of them), it is impossible to be able to acknowledge that the United States is an evil country and has been since its genocidal beginnings, and at the same time acknowledge that while Iran has a relatively cleansheet when it comes to warmongering, and perhaps less brutal than many of the regimes the US & UK support, that Iran actually does have some serious problems, and that the bastards like Afterdinnerjazz & the Ayatollah & their murderous & torturing henchmen should be opposed too.
Trotskyite types like Danny play these issues like a game of Top Trumps though.
People like Danny seem to believe that the CIA are able to pour hundreds of thousands of disaffected people into Iran to seamlessly blend in and pretend to be dissidents- as opposed to the well-worn tactic of backing the dissidents that already exist.
So, basically unless you subscribe to the idea that only the US is evil, that no one but CIA in Iran hates the regime; that there was no electoral fraud, it only leaves you the option of being a CIA agent.
Which is marvellous way of making any opposition to the CIA & US propaganda look spectacularly idiotic... and neatly overlooks the fact that the CIA surely would want to have the same nutcases that have been serving them well in getting the UN Security Council behind the path to military attacks. Who knows perhaps the CIA assisted the vote rigging just to stir the shit some more.
But that Danny thinks he some kind of divination talents regarding the methods and motives of the CIA, but can't even read a comment accurately is rather mystifying.
From the Politburo
Playground spite
30.06.2009 09:37
The fact remains the CIA have funded this 'revolution' to the tune of $400,000,000. Apart from direct financial aid to every opposition politician willing to accept it, they also supply guns and comms equipment to every terrorist group in Iran, including groups the US State dept call terrorists such as MEK.
I don't believe the fact that the CIA are instigating this undermines in the least the popular anti-state sentiment in Tehran, but some of their more puerile propaganda does damage Iranian opposition, such as the faked letter to Ayatollah admitting the election was fixed, in the same way your bizarre juvenile attacks here damage your 'argument'.
What was your argument again, do even you remember ?
Danny
Blameless little you...
30.06.2009 10:24
My point has been very simply and consistent. I oppose both the USA (and yes that is a fairly broad concept) and the Iranian regime. I also, due to my anti-authoritarian politics, no faith in the opposition in Iran either- just like I have no faith in the Conservatives or Liberals in the UK, nor do I have any love for the Democrats just because I hate the Republicans.
I'm not going to say that the Iranian regime isn't anything less than horrific just because the USA wants its hands on its oil & gas; and I'm not going to belittle the homosexuals executed under their theocracy just because family friends of the US & UK do worse- there is obviously media bias and collusion, but I think that can be taken as read on this site.
You however, seem only too keen to creep under the stinking sheets of any grubby tyrant in an effort to be as far away from the CIA as possible. But like all 'sluts', in the end you are only really damaging yourself.
Sticking your head up the Ayatollah's arse in the name opposing the CIA does far more damage to the credibility of opposing CIA blackops in Iran than pointing out the murdering theocracy also deserves to be opposed. If you really cared about anything but your own ego, you'd button your lip and sit on your hands.
I'm sure they have nothing more productive to do in Langley than argue with inconsequnetial little you. Especially since you are only too willing to do their bidding for them.
From the Politburo
$400000000 = 30 pieces of silver plus inflation
30.06.2009 10:35
Danny
Denial
30.06.2009 10:53
I'm not denying that the CIA are trying to destabilise Iran.
My observation that the theocracy should be toppled is not any kind of suggestion that the CIA are the people who should doing it. No more than I would suggest that we put Genghis Khan in charge of town planning or Roy Whiting in charge of a crèche.
Again, I'm saying that it's totally fucking idiotic to accuse anyone who hates the Iranian theocracy as being CIA. You are condemning countless gay rights, feminists and general human rights activists to the designation of CIA; people who also oppose gender, sexual and religious discrimination in the West as well as torture and executions in the West also.
It isn't Top Trumps. Just because the USA and UK are shitter than Iran in certain respects, doesn't mean anything other than Washington & Downing Street can never be seen as credible sources of criticism let alone suitable candidates for intervention. It certainly doesn't mean that the Islamic Republic is just great and its all CIA lies (of which there are indeed many).
You aren't attacking the CIA here. You are attacking activists. And unlike you, I am taking you to be merely an idiot rather than a spy.
Many activists hate the Iranian regime; many Iranians hate the regime; most of them aren't CIA and certainly don't support US belligerence. Get over it!
From the Politburo
Troll, be gone
30.06.2009 11:11
Either link to where I said that or shut the fuck up. I repeatedly stated the opposite of what you claim I have said. To misrepresent someone repeatedly is classic PRopaganda, and I can link to numerous posts, including this one, where you have done that.
Danny
The Oliver North of Indymedia?
30.06.2009 11:57
And judging by other comments here, I am not the only person who has picked up on this theme. Are you really vitamin B deficient after all?
Again, you seem to be overlooking the fact you are yourself nothing but a troll.
Again, I take you for a mere idiot rather than an agent.
From the Politburo
Vitamin B salesman
30.06.2009 13:22
I do think the CIA and other propagandists post here, at certain times. However since I consider myself a critic of the Islamic Republic, and have repeatedly stated that, I repeatedly challenged you for links to your serious allegations against me. And yet you only respond with smears, like a poisoned douche-bag, like a sickly little anonymous troll.
Danny
Sales of Goods & Services Act
30.06.2009 13:54
Again, anyone who is mildly interested in one bored person taking some misguided idiot to task, can scroll up here, and look at previous posts on Iran and see a consistent pattern of you calling anyone who doesn't the polish the Ayatollah's knob and nod to Afterdinnerjazz, a CIA agent.
Apparently everyone involved in the demos and actions against the theocracy is CIA agent or dupe.
Go cheer the hanging of some gays you useless idiot.
From the Politburo
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