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Say no to US Missile Defence - demonstrate at Fylingdales

campaigns | 20.05.2009 10:54 | Anti-militarism

Say no to US Missile Defence - join the demonstration at Fylingdales!

12 noon, Saturday 13th June
Ellerbeck Bridge, RAF Fylingdales, Whitby, North Yorkshire



As public confidence in politicians reaches new lows, we need to send them a message on US Missile Defence they can't ignore.

There are now two US Missile Defence bases in Britain. Tony Blair handed over Fylingdales in 2003 and Gordon Brown added Menwith Hill base in 2007.

There has been no public consultation or vote on Britain's involvement in US Missile Defence - in fact an aggressive system creating renewed tensions between the US and Russia. The Bush administration tried to expand the system from into Poland and the Czech Republic, prompting a huge wave of protests. Other European countries are concerned that the US is dragging the whole continent into a new conflict.

Join the rally at Ellerbeck and then march to the gates of Fylingdales!



Book your ticket to the demo - or arrange your own transport


London
Contact London Region CND on 020 7607 2302 or email  david.lrcnd@cnduk.org

Merseyside and Manchester
Bookings from Liverpool phone Merseyside CND on 0151 702 6974 or email  mcnd@care4free.net.
Bookings from Manchester via Greater Manchester & District CND on 0161273 8283 or email  gmdcnd@gn.apc.org.

Leeds, Bradford and York
Contact Yorkshire CND on 01274 730 795 or email  hannah@yorkshirecnd.org.uk.

Sheffield
Contact Sheffield CND on 01142 967 596 or email  kathcripps@blueyonder.co.uk.


If you need to stay over and camp nearby, contact Hannah at Yorkshire CND on  hannah@yorkshirecnd.org.uk or there is a youth hostel at Lockton, see  http://www.yha.org.uk/find-accommodation/yorkshire-wold-moors-coast/hostels/Lockton/index.aspx

campaigns
- e-mail: campaigns@cnduk.org
- Homepage: http://www.cnduk.org

Comments

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Son of Star Wars is stupid

20.05.2009 16:25

The following is quoted from a fairly right-wing think tank that has been getting a lot of headlines in the past few days. The fact it is a relatively right-wing report makes it's conclusions even more damning to the current folly of missile defence.
"
5.4 If Europe had a missile defense system, could that system protect Europe? The analysis given here shows that the missile defense system proposed for deployment in Europe has serious weaknesses and would not be able to provide a dependable defense against IRBMs and ICBMs launched from Iran, if such a threat were to emerge.
...
Recommendations
5.10 This report has concluded that there is at present no IRBM/ICBM threat from Iran and that such a threat, even if it were to emerge, is not imminent. Moreover, if such a threat were forthcoming, the proposed European missile defenses would not provide a dependable defense against it. It does not make sense, therefore, to proceed with deployment of the European missile defense system in Poland and the Czech Republic.
"

Danny
- Homepage: http://docs.ewi.info/JTA.pdf


@Laughing Boy

20.05.2009 20:53

Yes, I'd already read those reports, just like I read previous reports saying the Iranian missile ranges were as faked for national self-consumption as the previous reports of their missile sizes, just like the faked North Korean reports that they'd launched a satellite into orbit. Propa-fucking-ganda. These false reports are beneficial both to out state and the Iranian state, but even if they were true then how is that relevant? They have no payload. An Iranian missile slamming into Southern Europe could do no more damage than a homemade Gazan missile striking Israel. It would destroy one or two houses at most without a payload. And what response would that bring?

The report I quoted makes it clear it is talking about nuclear missiles. The scary sort of missile. It also makes it clear they don't have these, won't do for ages and even if they did, the Son of Star Wars shield would be ineffective at protecting Europe [which was the fucking point I was making]. It also makes it clear that any such weapon would be illogical and counterproductive for Iran. I assume you are just attacking my post because I posted it, WelshboyAndy, supposed friend of the Palestinian people. One monkey doesn't stop this show.


"
5.5 Does Europe face a military threat from Iran, and if so what is the nature of that threat? This report has focused on the technical rather than the political aspects of a possible threat. It has not assumed that Iran is planning to attack (or to acquire the capability to attack) Europe with nuclear-armed ballistic missiles; it is indeed difficult to imagine the circumstances inwhich Iran would do so. Iran does not at present possess that capability, nor is there specifi c evidence that it is seeking to acquire it. The nuclear missile threat from Iran to Europe is thus not imminent. At some point in the future Iran could acquire the capability to attack Europe with nuclear-armed IRBMs. It is not clear, however that the deployment of IRBMs would enhance Iran’s security. Large, visible, ground-launched missiles would be both provocative and vulnerable; mobile or
silo-launched missiles would be more secure but would take much longer to develop, and their use would elicit a massive response.
"

Danny


007 Danny

21.05.2009 05:47

Nice to know that you have authorative information about the range and payload of Iranian missiles. I'm sure the JIC will be most interested in hearing from you.

Could the 'missile shield' protect Europe? Unfortunately, we'll never know unless it actually happens. Think tanks may say 'no', but the Pentagon is going to have some convincing data on the system if it is to sell it to Congress and Obama. Yes, I know the inevitable response: 'The Pentagon can get away with what it likes, etc ...'

But as far as Europe is concerned, what have we to lose? Maybe the Iranians are no threat. Maybe the system doesn't work. But why should we care if we're not paying for it?

And the Russian response is frankly paranoid: twelve defensive missiles against a thousand or so warheads, which, if launched towards America, won't even come near the 'shield'?

tee hee


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Photos

21.05.2009 08:34

The crop button... please learn how to use it!

Learn how to f-ing crop


Okay WelchBoy

21.05.2009 09:54

"Could the 'missile shield' protect Europe?"

No. I don't think even the military are even pretending it could. Missile intercepts at ballistic speeds require a great deal of distance from the supposedly protected area to the intercept. This shield is solely designed to protect North America.

"But as far as Europe is concerned, what have we to lose?"

It makes every base in Europe associated with this a necessary 'first-strike' before any attempted strike on the US, in the same way that any tiny village with a Z or X Berth for Trident is a first-strike if the UK enters nuclear war.

"And the Russian response is frankly paranoid"

Hardly.

Russian Concerns about the European Missile Defense System

4.24 U.S. critics of the proposed missile defenses in Europe point to the weaknesses discussed above. Russian critics, on the other hand, point to the threat that those missile defenses pose to Russia’s national security interests. The main Russian concern is the EMR. The Czech Republic is a convenient place from which to gain a better view of Russian ICBMs and to defend the east coast of the United States. The Russians see enormous potential for upgrading the power of the EMR, giving the U.S. global missile defense system a broad capability to track ICBMs launched from the European part of Russia, providing information not only for the missile interceptors based in Poland but for those based in Alaska too. Deployment of the EMR will, in the Russian view, create over the territory of the United States a “missile defense umbrella” against a potential Russian ICBM attack. The resulting integrated defense, which would include missile defense radars in California and Alaska, would provide comprehensive missile defense coverage of the entire United States against all of Russia’s strategic missile forces. Russian military leaders and experts regard the proposed EMR in the Czech Republic as a key element in the creation of the information infrastructure for building up and strengthening the global U.S. missile defense system.
4.25 The United States has argued that since the launch site in Poland will have only ten interceptors it can pose no substantial threat to the large numbers of ICBMs
currently possessed by Russia. Russia has countered that the number of interceptors could be increased very quickly. It would not be diffi cult from either a technical
or an economic point of view to increase the number of interceptors: silo-based and mobile interceptors could be deployed for millions of dollars compared to one billion dollars for the EMR. Such interceptors could be deployed in Europe instead of the currently proposed interceptors. The ten interceptors planned for deployment in Poland will be able to intercept Russian ICBMs launched from the European part of Russia. Ten interceptors do not represent a big threat to the Russian strategic missile forces. But Russia is concerned that an increase in the number of interceptors in Poland or in other places in Europe, as well as the interceptors’ advancing capabilities, will seriously undermine the Russian retaliatory potential.
4.26 ICBMs launched from Iran on trajectories toward the United States, and IRBMs on trajectories towards Western Europe, would almost certainly deploy warheads
that are oriented towards the European midcourse radar, close enough to a nose-on orientation to have very small radar cross-sections. For ICBMs launched from Russia toward the United States, however, the radar viewing angles for the different ICBM stages will produce radar cross-sections hundreds of times larger than the radar cross-sections of warheads launched from Iran. These very large radar cross-sections would make it possible for the EMR — especially if it is upgraded — to track the upper rocket stages of Russian ICBMs with high precision. The radar could observe subtle changes in the motion of the upper rocket stages as the upper stage deploys warheads.
The radar might or might not be able to observe the warheads, depending on engineering details and on whether they can be viewed from the back end, but it might be possible to infer the trajectories of the warheads, providing enough information to launch interceptor missiles toward intercept points where they would then home in on the infrared signals from the warheads — and on the decoys that would almost certainly accompany the warheads.
16
Conclusion
4.27 This analysis points to the following conclusions:
a. The proposed addition of European-based components to the U.S. national missile defense cannot provide a dependable defense for Europe or the United States.
b. Any country capable of building, deploying, and operating IRBMs or ICBMs will be able to develop the countermeasures needed to render the missile defense ineffective. The EMR will face great difficulties in discriminating warheads launched from Iran against Europe or the United States from the decoys that might accompany them.
c. If Iran were to produce a missile that could carry a nuclear warhead to a range of 2,000 km, the European-based components of the U.S. missile defense could not engage that missile. The appropriate missile defense would be shorter-range missile defenses such as Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD). These missile defenses too would have to be able to cope with the potential countermeasures that could defeat the longer-range exoatmospheric defense system.
d. Russia has made it clear that it regards the proposed European missile defense system as a threat to its national security interests. It places particular emphasis
on the capacity of the system for expansion and modernization. Under these circumstances, Russia is unlikely to be willing to agree to deep reductions in strategic nuclear forces.
e. These conclusions suggest that, before taking a decision to deploy the proposed missile defenses in Europe, the Obama administration should conduct a serious technical review of the capabilities claimed for the proposed European missile defense system. In particular it should ask: does the EMR have the range against warheads to support its intended discrimination function? Can the system overcome simple countermeasures? Has the system “demonstrated through successful, operationally realistic flight-testing, a high probability of working in an operationally eff ective manner,” as required by the FY-2008 Defense Authorization Act.

Danny


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photo

21.05.2009 11:15

You mean resize rather than crop...but yes!

FB


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Not Welsh or Welch [sic]

21.05.2009 15:07

Perhaps your psychiatrist will tell you the difference between being paranoid and being persecuted.

A couple of points.

To upgrade the facility from twelve interceptors to a thousand is a fairly major task. Remember the states concerned have to agree. The idea of silo basing them is taking paranoia a little too far.

WIll Menwith Hill make the UK a target? Well, given we've already got Fylingdales, and a Trident base on the Clyde, Menwith Hill is a side issue. And if we're talking Iran, then do you really think that Iran is going to bother with Menwith Hill?

Radar cross section - you assume that the Iranians are capable of producing a low radar cross section re-entry vehicle.

As to Russia - well, its nuclear capability isn't based only on land based missiles. Secondly, if Russia wanted to, it could swamp the radar picture with no problem at all [see UK Chevaline programme].

BTW, I love the touch of Orwell in the original post: 'This defensive system is aggressive!'. And war is peace, and ....

No doubt someone considered the radar system being built along the Channel coast in 1939 'agressive'. Probably Goering.

tee hee


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A troll by any other name

21.05.2009 19:37

Sorry troll, too busy to ridicule you just now. I'll leave it up to everyone else as to which statement is the more credible.

either
"To upgrade the facility from twelve interceptors to a thousand is a fairly major task". - an Indymedia troll

or
"It would not be difficult from either a technical or an economic point of view to increase the number of interceptors: silo-based and mobile interceptors could be deployed for millions of dollars compared to one billion dollars for the EMR."

UNITED STATES: Philip Coyle, Senior Advisor, Center for
Defense Information; Richard Garwin, IBM Fellow Emeritus,
Thomas Watson Research Center; Ambassador James
Goodby, Nonresident Senior Fellow, the Brookings
Institution; Siegfried S. Hecker, Co-Director of CISAC and
Professor (Research), Department of Management Science
and Engineering, Stanford University; David Holloway,
Raymond A. Spruance Professor of International History,
Stanford University; Theodore A. Postol, Professor of Science,
Technology, and National Security Policy, Massachusetts
Institute of Technology.
RUSSIAN FEDERATION: Grigory Chernyavsky, Director of
the Earth Space Monitoring Scientifi c Center, Correspondent
Member of the Russian Academy of Sciences; General (Ret.)
Viktor Koltunov, Deputy Director, Institute for Strategic
Stability; Leonid Ryabikhin, Executive Secretary of the
Committee of Scientists for Global Security and Arms
Control and Senior Fellow, EastWest Institute; Vitaly Shyukin,
Head of Lab, Russian Federal Nuclear Center “Scientifi c
Research Institute of Technical Physics” (VNIITF); Boris
Vinogradov, Professor, Moscow Aviation Institute; Nikolay
Voloshin, Assistant Director, VNIITF.
In addition, other experts contributed in an ad hoc basis to the
proceedings or as reviewers of the draft at diff erent stages:
UNITED STATES: Joseph Cirincione, President, Ploughshares
Fund; General Lance Lord (USAF, ret.), Distinguished
Fellow, EastWest Institute; General Rick Olson (USA, ret.).
RUSSIAN FEDERATION: Vyacheslav Amirov, Senior Fellow,
Institute of World Economy and International Relations; Igor
Kondratsky, Councillor, Embassy of the Russian Federation in
France; Artem Malgin, Advisor to the Rector of the Moscow
State Institute of International Relations (MGIMO); Nikolay
Morozov, Deputy Director, Earth Space Monitoring Scientifi c
Center; Igor Neverov, Director of the Department of North
America, Russian Ministry of Foreign Aff airs; General (Ret.)
Michael Vinogradov, former President of the Committee
of Scientists for Global Security and Arms Control; Irina
Zvyagelskaya, Professor, MGIMO.

Danny


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Now here's a surprise ...

22.05.2009 06:17

... an awful lot of names from the Russian Federation. Now, I wonder why that would be?

Anyone who thinks you could silo base these for mere millions of dollars is an idiot. Go and look up what you need to do to make a silo blast proof.

And finally - all of this is irrelevant. Missiles in Poland will not be able to intercept missiles from SIberia launched on a Great Circle trajectory towards the US.

And a final finally: if the US can protect itself against nuclear armed missiles, why shouldn't it be allowed to do so?










tee hee


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silly wankers

22.05.2009 10:19

you two should be ashamed of yourselves.

you're a fuckin embarassment

bored of both of you


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To the lonely, needy troll

22.05.2009 17:34

"an awful lot of names from the Russian Federation. Now, I wonder why that would be?"

Maybe because it is a joint US / Russian think tank? Quite a lot of American names there too you pathetic douchebag.

"Anyone who thinks you could silo base these for mere millions of dollars is an idiot"

I've provided their qualifications, you haven't yet proven you can read.


"Missiles in Poland will not be able to intercept missiles from SIberia launched on a Great Circle trajectory towards the US."

Doh! EMR, that's what the Russians are worried about.

"And a final finally: if the US can protect itself against nuclear armed missiles, why shouldn't it be allowed to do so? "

Because a new arms race where one state gains an advantage over another is certain suicide for our species.

Danny


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Deja vu

22.05.2009 18:29

Headline: 'Britain to build chain of radar stations along coast'.

Protestors march in protest. 'This will destablise the balance of power between Germany and Britain.'

Herr Goering worried about ability of Luftwaffe to attack Germany.

'Britain are building these useless interceptors,' says Glasgow expert. 'They call them Spitfires, I think. But they are no good - the bomber will always get through.'

Date: 1938.


And tell me, why is that nice Mr Putin so worried? Surely a peace loving country like Russia will never launch nuclear missiles, will they? And if Britain could build a system in the 1970s to evade the Galosh ABM defences around Moscow, I think Russian experts ought to be able to build a system that could evade a dozen or even a hundred interceptor rockets launched from Poland. Interceptors that couldn't even intercept most of the missiles because they're too far away.

And seriously, if you think you can build silos for millions, you are deluded. Do some research on what you need to make a silo proof against a nuclear attack. Indeed, with the accuracy of today's missiles (CEP of around 100m), effectively you can't. Plus the fact you'll have to get the Poles to agree. A dozen missiles in their country is one thing, several hundred is another. Plus that fact that if you put the several hundred on one base, you can take them out with one warhead. But logic never was a strong point in Glasgow.

lonely needy troll


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Lonely and needy and a bit pitiful

23.05.2009 00:40

>Headline: 'Britain to build chain of radar stations along coast'. Protestors march in protest. 'This will destablise the balance of power between Germany and Britain.'

Since that never happened I assume you intended that to be a metaphor? Hopefully a metaphor that makes some kind of point?


>But logic never was a strong point in Glasgow.

Since I'm not Glaswegian your logic fails me, though I know a few Glaswegians who would take righteous offence at that misfire.

Listen, I'm feeding two stray cats just now, you can be my third stray. Next time you take the time to read what I've posted, I'll feed you more tidbits, it's sad to see even a troll go hungry.

Danny


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troll gives history lesson ...

23.05.2009 06:19

'Since that never happened' ... well, if you're talking about the radar stations, then yes, it did. The Chain Home radar system - see here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_Home

But perhaps history isn't your strong point either.

mountain troll


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troll on

23.05.2009 11:32

>Headline: 'Britain to build chain of radar stations along coast'. Protestors march in protest. 'This will destablise the balance of power between Germany and Britain.'

Never happened. If you think you've taught me that Radar stations existed and that gives you some sense of smugness then you are more to be pitied than scolded.

Danny


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When all else fails

23.05.2009 12:20

and logical argument escapes you, then resort to vulgar abuse.

trog


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