G20 police 'used undercover men to incite crowds'
Harold Hamlet | 10.05.2009 07:50 | G20 London Summit | Repression
An MP who was involved in last month's G20 protests in London is to call for an investigation into whether the police used agents provocateurs to incite the crowds.
Liberal Democrat Tom Brake says he saw what he believed to be two plain-clothes police officers go through a police cordon after presenting their ID cards.
Brake, who along with hundreds of others was corralled behind police lines near Bank tube station in the City of London on the day of the protests, says he was informed by people in the crowd that the men had been seen to throw bottles at the police and had encouraged others to do the same shortly before they passed through the cordon.
Brake, a member of the influential home affairs select committee, will raise the allegations when he gives evidence before parliament's joint committee on human rights on Tuesday.
"When I was in the middle of the crowd, two people came over to me and said, 'There are people over there who we believe are policemen and who have been encouraging the crowd to throw things at the police,'" Brake said. But when the crowd became suspicious of the men and accused them of being police officers, the pair approached the police line and passed through after showing some form of identification.
Brake has produced a draft report of his experiences for the human rights committee, having received written statements from people in the crowd. These include Tony Amos, a photographer who was standing with protesters in the Royal Exchange between 5pm and 6pm. "He [one of the alleged officers] was egging protesters on. It was very noticeable," Amos said. "Then suddenly a protester seemed to identify him as a policeman and turned on him. He legged it towards the police line, flashed some ID and they just let him through, no questions asked."
Amos added: "He was pretty much inciting the crowd. He could not be called an observer. I don't believe in conspiracy theories but this really struck me. Hopefully, a review of video evidence will clear this up."
The Independent Police Complaints Commission has received 256 complaints relating to the G20 protests. Of these, 121 have been made about the use of force by police officers, while 75 relate to police tactics. The IPCC said it had no record of complaints involving the use of police agents provocateurs. A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: "We would never deploy officers in this way or condone such behaviour."
The use of plain-clothes officers in crowd situations is considered a vital tactic for gathering evidence. It has been used effectively to combat football hooliganism in the UK and was employed during the May Day protests in 2001.
Brake said he intends to raise the allegations with the Met's commissioner, Sir Paul Stephenson, when he next appears before the home affairs select committee. "There is a logic having plain-clothes officers in the crowd, but no logic if the officers are actively encouraging violence, which would be a source of great concern," Brake said.
The MP said that given only a few people were allowed out of the corralled crowd for the five hours he was held inside it, there should be no problem in investigating the allegation by examining video footage
Liberal Democrat Tom Brake says he saw what he believed to be two plain-clothes police officers go through a police cordon after presenting their ID cards.
Brake, who along with hundreds of others was corralled behind police lines near Bank tube station in the City of London on the day of the protests, says he was informed by people in the crowd that the men had been seen to throw bottles at the police and had encouraged others to do the same shortly before they passed through the cordon.
Brake, a member of the influential home affairs select committee, will raise the allegations when he gives evidence before parliament's joint committee on human rights on Tuesday.
"When I was in the middle of the crowd, two people came over to me and said, 'There are people over there who we believe are policemen and who have been encouraging the crowd to throw things at the police,'" Brake said. But when the crowd became suspicious of the men and accused them of being police officers, the pair approached the police line and passed through after showing some form of identification.
Brake has produced a draft report of his experiences for the human rights committee, having received written statements from people in the crowd. These include Tony Amos, a photographer who was standing with protesters in the Royal Exchange between 5pm and 6pm. "He [one of the alleged officers] was egging protesters on. It was very noticeable," Amos said. "Then suddenly a protester seemed to identify him as a policeman and turned on him. He legged it towards the police line, flashed some ID and they just let him through, no questions asked."
Amos added: "He was pretty much inciting the crowd. He could not be called an observer. I don't believe in conspiracy theories but this really struck me. Hopefully, a review of video evidence will clear this up."
The Independent Police Complaints Commission has received 256 complaints relating to the G20 protests. Of these, 121 have been made about the use of force by police officers, while 75 relate to police tactics. The IPCC said it had no record of complaints involving the use of police agents provocateurs. A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: "We would never deploy officers in this way or condone such behaviour."
The use of plain-clothes officers in crowd situations is considered a vital tactic for gathering evidence. It has been used effectively to combat football hooliganism in the UK and was employed during the May Day protests in 2001.
Brake said he intends to raise the allegations with the Met's commissioner, Sir Paul Stephenson, when he next appears before the home affairs select committee. "There is a logic having plain-clothes officers in the crowd, but no logic if the officers are actively encouraging violence, which would be a source of great concern," Brake said.
The MP said that given only a few people were allowed out of the corralled crowd for the five hours he was held inside it, there should be no problem in investigating the allegation by examining video footage
Harold Hamlet
e-mail:
harold.hamlet@virgin.net
Comments
Hide the following 26 comments
Police riot
10.05.2009 08:34
Danny
Not really
10.05.2009 10:13
It occasionally gets wheeled out by politicians for column inches in the Hate Mail.
Apart than that, I can't see how the police actions could be regarded as an attack against teh crown and its sovereignty??? Surely, their actions were in form support of the Crown.
If anything the police should be charged under the Public Order and Human Rights Acts for sure, and possibly even under the Terrorism Act.
However, this won't affect any prosecutions against anyone arrested at the G2o unless someone can actually prove that 1. This actually happened (which we all know it does happen but proving it has always been a sticking point) and 2. That the police provocation has a mitigation of their actions.
Dixon of Dock Green
Do Agents Provocateurs Exist? - April 3, 2009
10.05.2009 10:18
I postulated that one explanation might be that the small number of "protestors" who were theatrically and irrationally violent, were not actually protestors at all. I could think of other explanations, but no better ones, as to why police would not arrest a small, isolated and outnumbered group who were attacking them with sticks.
There is a website called Harry's Place which exists to promote New Labour and a particularly virulent and sometimes openly racist strain of Zionism. That website has this morning put up a post called "Craig Murray Latest Lunacy", where they assert that even to imagine that our security services might employ agents provocateurs is a symptom of madness.
It is not that Harry's Place have a naive faith in their political masters. It is rather that they are engaged in a cynical attempt to manipulate public opinion. What do they expect us to believe that 4,500 people at MI5 actually do for a living, and why is it Top Secret?
Craig Murray (repost)
Flashback - agent provocateurs at demo in Canada '07 on video
10.05.2009 12:06
me
Discipline of protesters is often amazing in extreme violence Ive seen
10.05.2009 17:08
I salute protesters discipline,at J18 even though we were repeatedly baton charged & whacked around the head by masses of police we managed to get mobile, keep them on the run. When we managed to isolate some of them, they could have been beaten up but were told we were letting them go because we are fellow humans, that were following corrupted undemocratic insitutions& that our movement is unstoppable.
Its great to see the truth coming abit in the news, vsad it cost another life to make this start happening, RIP Ian Tomlinson.
I think Met are having a review around june the 12th, lets make them as accountable as possible, they need to be arresting the real criminals
Green Syndicalist
Harry's Place = 21st C HUAC
10.05.2009 17:14
"will you condemn the actions of ....?"
"Have you ever shared a platform with an Islamist speaker?"
"why do you never say anything against X?"
It's internet McCarthyism for tedious bastards too old for *chan.
CH
guy on my road
10.05.2009 18:09
iVICA
"There's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's Elvis...
10.05.2009 19:03
iVICA, please excuse my cynicism,
You are claiming that you heard second-hand that 'some skinhead' on your road went to the demo to stir-up trouble and then explained that to the police in order to get through police lines? And you think that is 'probably the truth'? What is your logic that that is 'probably the truth', what evidence do you base your belief on since you never even spoke to the skinhead? What street do you live on so we can check this out, and are there people who post on Indymedia who know who you are?
Your story is interesting in itself, but it isn't the incident described by a named MP and a named photographer who both witnessed bottles being thrown by the agents provocateurs encouraging others to do the same, and who flashed ID to get through the police lines.
Danny
maybe
10.05.2009 19:35
It could become all too easy for people to randomly accuse anyone who may be throwing things, or attacking police lines, of being an 'agent provocateur'.
It could also get to the point where any attacks on corporate property are attributed, not to people who may have a legitimate reason to target that property, but to police trying to 'incite' trouble and get people arrested.
Stories of 'agent provocateurs' can cause us to turn in on ourselves, to accuse the most militant among us of being plain clothes police, and terrify those who would take action in case they are doing so in the presence of an undercover agent.
I'm not saying undercover police do not exist. But those I have observed have been getting information, or trying to cause divisions in a crowd and undermine solidarity, all of which has to be far more of a problem than inciting people to throw bricks at coppers.
Fighting Fit
e-mail:
defycops@yahoo.co.uk
Homepage:
http://www.fitwatch.org.uk
Is that the FITwatch line on this?
10.05.2009 20:11
This isn't about dissing genuine protestors who were provoked into violence, this is about police faking violence as politically useful propaganda, as surely as the unboarded RBS was deliberate incitement.
Let me repeat something obvious from the article that makes it clear that this wasn't genuine protestors:
"He legged it towards the police line, flashed some ID and they just let him through, no questions asked."
Who can get through police lines by flashing ID?
Danny
a cigarette a day
10.05.2009 23:19
although this article is about tommy sheridan it also highlights mi5 tactics.
Tommy Sheridan and MI5's activities
Your Letters October 13 2006
THE Scottish media have responded to Tommy Sheridan's statement -
that history may well show MI5 involvement in the ongoing attempts to
end his political career - with condescending incredulity. The
inference has been that Sheridan has "lost his marbles" and descended
into egoistical paranoia. In short, this man, and his politics, must be
seen as a joke. The truth, in fact, is very different and it seems to
me obvious that if MI5 has not been watching and seeking to undermine
Tommy Sheridan and the causes he has espoused - it would not have
been doing its job.
Sheridan is a republican socialist dedicated to the establishment of an
independent Scotland. He is a committed anti-nuclear campaigner and a
fierce opponent of the Anglo-American "war on terror" (England's new
Hundred Years War). The British establishment, rightly, recognises him
as a genuine danger to the status quo of the British State and, like
the Murdoch press, the British intelligence services know themselves
free to "stretch the rules" a little to bring him down.
MI5 work with sticks and carrots, and there can be no doubt that it
has, over many years, infiltrated paid informers into the SSP, the
Green Party and the SNP. Their remit is to observe and survey but also
to destabilise the organisations of which they are part - and
mis-organisation, faux extremism and reductio ad absurdum are part of
their stock in trade (with flesh-traps a bonus for some). The only
surprising thing about the present debacle is that the ever-presentness
of MI5 in nationalist, republican and peace politics in Scotland is
not, publicly, recognised as a given.
My personal experience with MI5 is, fortunately, limited, but for the
past four years I have been working, intensively, on a two-volume
biography of Hamish Henderson - one of the most important and
influential Scotsmen of the twentieth century. My researches show that
Hamish (like John MacLean before him) was regularly under MI5
surveillance and that he suffered Intelligence harassment throughout of
his life. The first volume of this biography will appear in May 2007
and document facts to make one's hair stand on end.
Any opposed to the Bush/Blair attempt to define western civilisation
must expect small bruises - for the greater good - but it seems
clear to me that if an isolated writer and bee-keeper, ex-art historian
and film-maker like me has been subject to MI5 surveillance and
interference then a compulsive and influential political activist, such
as Tommy Sheridan, most certainly will be. Far from being nuts, he is
bearing the fruits of his labour, and the knives are out to cut him
down - stalk, branch, trunk and root.
[personal details removed as per:
keeps the docs at bay
Fucking hell - you are daft enough to be genuine
11.05.2009 00:13
If you understand what I've I've said on this thread and would still like to meet up for an anarchist/socialist one-on-one, then publish an email address I can contact you on, we can meet up anywhere in Fife. In My Anarchist Opinion, things have gotten very sick in Scotland very quickly - and in my opinion Tommys stupidity has contributed to that. As an anarchist, it isn't just the SSP who where infltrated, it was most anarchist groups too.
Saying that, I met his mum and I know she is genuine and decent. I'd trust Tommys mum more than anyone else who posts here.
Danny
Admins
11.05.2009 00:22
Danny
Tim, lunch, wherever
11.05.2009 00:30
Danny
Doh
11.05.2009 01:01
I promise and never lie.
£30 donation to IM-UK by July if some IMCista edits this properly to make up for my idiocy. I'd like to meet Tim.
Danny
The importance of this story
11.05.2009 09:17
The MP who witnessed it is saving it for a parliamentary commitee. By that time, by now probably, all the relevant CCTV footage will be 'lost'. I hope the photographer got some snaps.
From what I can see Tims post is a repost, even if it's not then I wouldn't want to meet up at this point so you can hide those posts of mine since they merely serve to +distract+ from the issue. To newspapers the fact police put agents into crowds is not news, the police admit this happens. To Indymedia, it's not news that police agents in crowd act as violent provocateurs and most newspapers won't cover that angle.
What is news is that a named photographer and a named MP witnessed this and witnessed the police provocateurs throwing bottles and encouraging others to throw bottles. That is a massive story by anyones standards, the sort of story I am not going to distract from and which should be fully investigated, if not by the police or the media then by Indymedia. The sort of story that when linked to the false allegation that protestors threw bottles at the brave police trying to save Tomlinson maybe explains why it is being distracted from here. Because the police agents don't only try to stir up trouble at demos, they or their colleagues also post here. So if there are no more 'a guy down my road said' posts then I won't post on this thread but be very aware, one of the cops just posted here trying to derail this already.
This is as big a story as Tomlinsons murder. I realise it can't be promoted because it is mainstream, but someone reading this who was at the demo should start asking around if anyone they know have photos of people getting through police lines, either innocently or by flashing ID.
Danny
repost
11.05.2009 14:59
although this article is about tommy sheridan it also highlights mi5 tactics. "
is a repost from another site. letter with address first published in Glasgow Herald
not tim
It does happen
11.05.2009 21:09
Most people at actions like G20 are in groups who know each other well (the best idea) or are moving between groups where they are known. Keep an eye on people who seem to be in twos, don't look quite right, and try to stir things up by actions or words at times when they are -relatively- quiet. The innocent but tactically misguided hothead usually tries to stir up his (usually his) mates, not complete strangers. Often a bit pissed, too.
When I say "keep an eye on" I mean just that. I DON'T mean jump to conclusions. I mean be aware, look around you, observe, and think about speaking to anyone who arouses serious suspicion. Don't accuse them, but try to explain why what they're doing is ill-timed or counter-productive and suggest that if they carry on like that people will suspect they're plants. Get into conversation and you may find your suspicions are allayed. If, on the other hand, you are rebuffed and they move to a different part of the crowd and repeat the same behaviour there, you have more solid ground for suspicion and getting pics from a safe distance may be a good idea.
We need rational, considered methods of discovering and countering this established police trick. What we don't need is either divisive paranoia and accusation without evidence or head-in-the-sand denial that it ever happens.
Stroppyoldgit
demons
11.05.2009 22:06
You may be deceived if you trust too much, but you will live in torment if you don't trust enough.
angels or
Glitch?
12.05.2009 12:13
Danny
take care
12.05.2009 12:22
But I do think we miss other times and other ways in which the police work - and trying to stir up division, fear and mistrust is undoubtedly one of them. I also think that this is potentially more of a problem (collectively speaking at least) than the agent provocateur thing.
Of course, people should always do what is right for them, and not follow the entreaties of people they don't know or trust. That is good advice, and is well said.
But I have also seen men who I don't know, who don't appear part of any group, getting people to sit down in front of lines of riot police, where they are batoned or arrested. Or urging people to run into a park / enclosed area where they can be easily dispersed or kettled. Or trying to get people to turn against the 'violent elements' in the crowd.
The only point I wanted to make is this: that we should be wary of paranoia making us turn against our own,
And no, this is not the FITwatch 'line', it is merely the opinion of just another weary protester.
Fighting Fit
Re: Glitch?
12.05.2009 12:37
I expect that this is the cause of the problem?
Techie
Ta techie
12.05.2009 15:03
Danny
Latest Info Req`d
12.05.2009 18:52
On the BBC web site, again soem info on a guy who got punched and the police saying how ell they handled everything. HOHO
I`ver doen a quick search and there is nothing even on here.
Do we have any update on whether he even raised this issue and any outcome..
Thanks
Wolfy
e-mail:
magoo12@ntlworld.com
Wolfy, 1 tiny reference
12.05.2009 19:16
Earlier, Deputy Chief Constable Sue Sim, the Acpo lead on public order and public safety, admitted there were no specific guidelines available on plain clothes police officers operating in crowds.
When it was put to her plain clothes officers had been operating in the G20 by Lib Dem MP Tom Brake and Conservative MP James Clappison, she said she "wouldn't expect" them to have been there.
"This may well be something we would expect to go into in the future," she said.
Dep Ch Const Sim was clearer on her concerns about media coverage of the protests.
"
Danny
Homepage:
http://www.politics.co.uk/news/policing-and-crime/orde-uneven-protest-policing-unacceptable-$1294799.htm
NY Times blog
13.05.2009 10:18
Since he needs to maintain a good working relationship with the police, he asked not to be named, but I’d like to share some of what he, and another photographer he was with for part of Wednesday observed while working.
He writes that it appeared to at least these two photographers that most of the much-photographed violence on Wednesday evening was caused by people who looked like “agent provocateurs,” who “were going from police line to police line baiting the police — and they were the ones who instigated the push against police lines that kicked off the evening violence.” This photographer adds that “There was another guy baiting the police and whipping up the crowd to rush the police, he got a hundred or so protesters to follow him and then sneaked off as they reached police lines.” He also writes that the second photographer, who is a reliable reporter, “saw a bunch of protesters trying to stop a guy in black throwing bottles at the police, the protesters had an argument him and then accused him of being a policeman, whereupon he ran to the police cordon, showed some I.D. and was let through!”
Finally, my friend says: “I should point out that the only reason that we were able to spot these guys so easily was because the protest at that point was so peaceful, they really stuck out, so we followed them from one police line to another as they tried to start trouble.”
Danny
Homepage:
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/protesters-fail-to-bring-down-global-capitalism-with-costumes-puppets/