Great atmosphere, good turn out, though i saw or heard nothing about the dog getting abused, (in another report) did any of you???!

Great to see Mickey the Mutilated Bunny here :o) Though there are no pictures of his brother Tom...

I didn't witness this incident, and I didn't hear of such an incident! Neither have any of my friends that attended.

I would like to add though that the author of the article about the dog moans about ARA's (except for 2 women) but what did the author do, stand by and take notes for indymedia!

Brilliant day, lovely weather and a great atmosphere!

... you will always refuse any medical treatment, even of a life-saving nature, if it has been tested on animals at any stage? Because otherwise you're all full of middle-class shit.

... would anyone not take life saving medicine, that hadn't been developed on animals, and had only been tested as a small part of the safety testing process, which would not only be replaceable, but actually increases the chances of unsafe drugs being released onto the market.

Do you boycott all drugs, and active ingredients, tested on concentration camp prisoners during the holocaust by companies like Bayer which are still on the market?

Animal testing can, and should be replaced - no one is saying there shouldn't be medical research (infact research is something you should be doing).

Grow up.

Yes, as I'm a veganarchist and against speciesism I will always refuse medical treatment that has been tested on animals (which is all of it) and I wouldn't allow products that have been manufactured by those who profit in animal abuse (again, most products in the medical industry).

This is the reason I do not use the medical profession, why my children were born without the medical profession being inolved and why I will die rather than have untold animals tortured and abused to save my life.

So Antispe

... you will not eat _any_ food that is not grown organically in your own back yard, if you have concerns over food miles and cash crops?
... you will always refuse any transport, even for an essential journey, if it may be run by a corporation you criticise?
... you will live in a darkened room, even if you have no candles, because an electric light might be contributing to carbon emissions?
... you will never purchase any clothing, even if you cannot make your own, because it may have been made by an expoloited worker in the pay of a boss?
... you would deny anyone access to water because some idiot once thought they would conduct a stupid experiment to find how much could be forced into an animal before it died?
... you have a totally clean conscience about every aspect of your life, and need do nothing more except criticise others?

The point is not to criticise those fighting to repair a flawed system, but to support everyone willing to learn from the mistakes of the past and prevent future suffering.

ie support vegan organic growers; share skills to tackle climate change, campaign for sustainable transport; buy fair trade (but buy less); support anyone working for a better system.

Because otherwise you too are full of middle-class shit.

btw
Apologies if the previous comment was someone pretending to be 'Antispe', I would hope that it does not represent the thoughts of a genuine anti-specisist

I would rather live to save as many animals as I possibly can, whilst avoiding 99% of medication. If it was between taking one drug tested on animals to save my life so I can continue to save animals, or dying and not being able to do anything - I'd prefer to do the former.

It's NOT about being pedantic, it's about saving the animals.

I can respect your opinion and think its great that you don't use drugs and boycott the medical industry, you will probably lead a far more natural life. good luck.
but you've got to be careful about speaking for everyone. when you don't represent.
I'm vegan, have been for 8 years, i try and grow/find as much of food as possible.
if i have a headache, i eat poppy seeds, if i get a cold i stay in bed.
but if (god forbid) I had a heart attack, I'd want deffribing ASAP. I'm fairly sure most vegans would.
if my companion animals get ill, i take them to the vets. I'd criticize anyone who didn't.

as said by someone at the WDAIL demo, most carpets have animal tested dyes in them. in my area some buses have leather seats. and 15% of anything you buy goes to the government, who fund HLS.
Its unavoidable to be part of the animal abusing system, thats why its so important to like animal rights with anarchism, because only when we smash the state, will the animal industries become weak.

The struggle won't be won by a group of hardcore vegans abstaining from potentially life saving treatment, where as battles could be won by vegans who previously have had life saving treatment.

good luck with your abstinence, i really do wish you the best of luck. but god forbid anything should happen, i hope you re-consider your grounds and don't end up rotting with the Jehovah's witnesses.

Essential oils, homeopathic medicienes, mobile phones, water, printer ink have all been tested on animals. Following this through to its logical conclusion an activist would be rendered very ineffective especially if taken to the extent of being zero carbon as well, but to strive for that is surely a GOOD thing.

Many of us remain ardently opposed to vivisection whilst we have taken medication which at some time was tested on animals and indeed non compliant humans. In my case when I was attacked by a serving police officer on an anti HLS action several things saved my life, anaesthetics, antibiotics and a blood transfusion. I do not think that it was anyone elses decision to make whether or not to accept treatment and this "middle class hypocrite" thought at the time that rather than die from hypovolaemic shock, infection and fatty embolism (from the marrow of the fractured femur) that I would continue to fight. The NHS is all we have in this sort of scenario and would continue to exist without vivisection. Furthermore in my case nothing else would have saved my life, if someone had managed to move me to shelter from the tarmac I would have been dead within days. Should highly effective treatments be banned too because they were tested on animals (although I would argue that many treatments and more would have been discovered anyway and sooner)? Do we enforce a "year zero" whereby an entire health service is started from scratch?

It is incredibly insulting and arrogant to judge some of the most dedicated anti vivisectionists for accepting medical treatment. As for childbirth I agree as a practicing Midwife that this is a natural, normal event which needs minimal assistance. I also accept that on quite a few occassions erring on the side of caution can be detrimental for example I have heard some hospitals induce labour for post dates fairly early at 40 weeks. However believe you me when things go wrong, they go wrong terribly. Mothers and babies still die. Midwives and doctors are not the enemy. In fact any woman can demand a home birth which only midwives will attend. It is assault to touch or treat anyone without their consent.
Good luck to all those who go for a freebirth with no assistance at all but my advice would be know when to call for help for example ;
seeing flashing lights, headache, epigastric pain, swelling could signal PET (pre-eclampsia)
bleeding can signal abruption where the placental peels away from the uterine wall or placenta previa whereby the placenta covers the cervix making labour a life threatening process for mother and baby.
retained placenta which can lead to infection and severe haemorrhage.
meconium liquor (look for green or brown waters) when the baby poos in utero which can lead to the baby inhaling said poo at delivery, problems with breathing and death.
I could go on, bear in mind previous generations often had many women present at births who were competant lay midwives who could pre empt and deal with complications.In fact my Great Grandmother was a lay midwife in Epping Forest. Bear in mind too that vitamin K which is given to nearly all newborns (with parental consent) contains bovine bile (glychocholic acid) to prevent haemolytic disease of the newborn.
Childbirth should go without a hitch, snuffles, scrapes, bruises etc do not need doctors, paracetomol or even plasters but in a medical emergency how many of us would stand back an sit watching someone die, maybe a baby because drugs have been tested on animals in the past? We must respect the choices of others but our collective goal is to stop any usage of any sentient being, we live in an imperfect world and have to negotiate a moral maze sometimes decisions are very difficult to make and there are no easy answers. Please do not judge those of us who have made choices after much deliberation whilst in severe pain.

Essential oils, homeopathic medicienes, mobile phones, water, printer ink have all been tested on animals. Following this through to its logical conclusion an activist would be rendered very ineffective especially if taken to the extent of being zero carbon as well, but to strive for that is surely a GOOD thing.

Many of us remain ardently opposed to vivisection whilst we have taken medication which at some time was tested on animals and indeed non compliant humans. In my case when I was attacked by a serving police officer on an anti HLS action several things saved my life, anaesthetics, antibiotics and a blood transfusion. I do not think that it was anyone elses decision to make whether or not to accept treatment and this "middle class hypocrite" thought at the time that rather than die from hypovolaemic shock, infection and fatty embolism (from the marrow of the fractured femur) that I would continue to fight. The NHS is all we have in this sort of scenario and would continue to exist without vivisection. Furthermore in my case nothing else would have saved my life, if someone had managed to move me to shelter from the tarmac I would have been dead within days. Should highly effective treatments be banned too because they were tested on animals (although I would argue that many treatments and more would have been discovered anyway and sooner)? Do we enforce a "year zero" whereby an entire health service is started from scratch?

It is incredibly insulting and arrogant to judge some of the most dedicated anti vivisectionists for accepting medical treatment. As for childbirth I agree as a practicing Midwife that this is a natural, normal event which needs minimal assistance. I also accept that on quite a few occassions erring on the side of caution can be detrimental for example I have heard some hospitals induce labour for post dates fairly early at 40 weeks. However believe you me when things go wrong, they go wrong terribly. Mothers and babies still die. Midwives and doctors are not the enemy. In fact any woman can demand a home birth which only midwives will attend. It is assault to touch or treat anyone without their consent.
Good luck to all those who go for a freebirth with no assistance at all but my advice would be know when to call for help for example ;
seeing flashing lights, headache, epigastric pain, swelling could signal PET (pre-eclampsia)
bleeding can signal abruption where the placental peels away from the uterine wall or placenta previa whereby the placenta covers the cervix making labour a life threatening process for mother and baby.
retained placenta which can lead to infection and severe haemorrhage.
meconium liquor (look for green or brown waters) when the baby poos in utero which can lead to the baby inhaling said poo at delivery, problems with breathing and death.
I could go on, bear in mind previous generations often had many women present at births who were competant lay midwives who could pre empt and deal with complications.In fact my Great Grandmother was a lay midwife in Epping Forest. Bear in mind too that vitamin K which is given to nearly all newborns (with parental consent) contains bovine bile (glychocholic acid) to prevent haemolytic disease of the newborn.
Childbirth should go without a hitch, snuffles, scrapes, bruises etc do not need doctors, paracetomol or even plasters but in a medical emergency how many of us would stand back an sit watching someone die, maybe a baby because drugs have been tested on animals in the past? We must respect the choices of others but our collective goal is to stop any usage of any sentient being, we live in an imperfect world and have to negotiate a moral maze sometimes decisions are very difficult to make and there are no easy answers. Please do not judge those of us who have made choices after much deliberation whilst in severe pain.

I accepted medical treatment following an assault by a serving police officer on an anti HLS action. I nearly died. Thankyou so much for calling me and everyone else who has recieved treatment from the NHS (for example Steve Christmas) after being attacked by police, hunts, vivisectors etc "middle class hypocrites". Personally "antispec", I find this arrogant, patronising and unrealistic. No doubt you would have refused treatment and you would have died but I personally thought it best to keep alive and fighting.
I am glad that you had no problems with the birth of your child. As a midwife I can tell you that not all families have the same good fortune. Some women and their babies do need hospital care and medication, including vegan women and babies. Please do not judge people who have had to make choices which you were not faced with. There are life threatening conditions which can and do kill for example, pre-eclampsia, obstetric cholestasis, post partum haemorrhage, respiratory disease of the newborn, meconium aspiration, placenta previa, infection etc.
Those of us who have accepted medical treatment and indeed work as health workers wish to abolish vivisection not comence some year zero whereby everything tested on animals (which includes aromatherapy and homeopathic and herbal remedies) is thrown out and an entire health service started from scratch. To do that has the same logic as digging up roads made by slave labour.

Posted more or less the same thing 3 times which was unintentional. Got a message to say there was a fault and I thought my comment had been lost in space.

not that founding anything means anything as the antispe movement is being carried so many people (that's a thumbs up to everyone moving things forward!), however...

i have to agree with pretty much all latter comments, antispe is based on the anti-speciesist perception of veganism (which is to avoid animal exploitation as much as possible) - not to avoid animal abuse where it is not practical (for example life saving treatment).

i'd like to thank Lynn for bringing this issue to light, as I have to admitt, for my initial years of veganism I considered it immoral to take life saving treatment - I now see the error of my ways and past advocacy to others. I think the initially antispe poster was genuinely ment, instead of being a troll/cop post, but is not shared by the vast majority of anti-speciesists.

although only one of the founders, I know that all other founders think the same and I hope that those who become a part of this movement can bring themselves to understand this.

i would also like to thank Lynn for showing solidarity with us back in Horsham, FIT loved it!!

to all bandana wearers, night-time militants and fellow anarchists - keep on fighting!

On medical treatments and surgical procedures for none essential or none life threatening conditions?

Everything at one time or another has been tested on animals including vegetables;  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article3108147.ece

I know there are certain people that do not like ant vivisectionists but would they have us starve!

We do our very best.

Good point. Leads us to the all important question of what is a "lifesaving" proceedure and what is not. Clearly if someone is battered half to death by a roit cop it is a clear cut case that medical help should be given but things are rarely so clear cut.

Hypothetical situation. An animal rights person goes to see their GP they have terrible headaches and the GP finds that their blood pressure is high, not dangerously high but high. This person may be developing chronic hypertension putting him at risk of having a stroke, he is vegan (and eats only wholefoods), he does not drink alcohol, he does not smoke. Now he could wait and see what happens maybe his BP is up because he is stressed. After a few readings it becomes clear that this is a worsening problem. He could take an antihypertensive drug or he could leave it. If he does not and has a stroke he will need many more animal tested drugs to save his life. What should he do? His life is not in immediate danger. If it was me I would make sure I had a problem first of all, then maybe look at what drugs were manufactured and when and research which drugs I might accept. I think that this person should not be judged whatever he decides to do. More drug information what, when , how, why, which animals used etc should be readily available with ingredients so we can make informed choices.

Prophylaxis, the practice of giving drugs or treatment to prevent disease is another factor with prime examples being innoculation and worming for our non human friends. What should we do?

Going to the dentist is not a matter of life and death but again lignocaine (the local anaesthetic) and fillings were tested on animals at some stage. Lignocaine has been around much longer than many printer inks and artificial additives though, should vegans eschew the dentist though in great pain then (as many do) drink something disgusting with artificial additives (also animal tested) in it?

This is a real moral minefield and one that should be debated much more. In a society where EVERYTHING has been tested on animals including the mobile phones many of us use to coordinate demos we are in the same situation as those combatting climate change i.e we cannot escape our contribution the problem we are trying to solve, we must minimise our involvement and continue to instigate change. How much we minimise our involvement pragmatically is the big question.

One thing to bear in mind though. It is the vivisectors who always turn the debate around to medication and drugs and guilt trip anyone who has ever recieved treatment. Surely it is just as hypocritical to eat a vegetable which has been sprayed with animal tested pesticides as it is to take an antibiotic. Indeed many vegans may have drunk non organic coffee or smoke a cigarette which contributes to the coffers of the vivisection industry in part. The enemy does not like to argue about non medical research though so we should push this a bit.

Let's keep thing to the point and not throw in your own agenda, I do believe you was pulled from an unsafe tripod and not battered by the riot police...

The hypothetical situation you put forward is far fetched to say the least...

The dentist comes under the prevention card activist often pull to defend against vivisection...

It's not the moral mind field you would have us believe. To stand outside a company to protest their links to vivisection just after you have come from a dentist appointment or even the doctors taking full advantage of vivisection is hypocrisy at it's finest!

What about cosmetic surgery? Or drugs used to change one's appearance?

I don't eat veg that has chemicals on them nor do I eat commercially organic grown veg. Organic doesn't mean it's chemical free by the way....

Wiki I mistook you from someone who wanted to have a sensible debate, maybe someone who could contribute to the ethical dilemmas that many animal rights people have to face. Obviously this is not the case. I wonder what your agenda is here? (I think I can guess!).

By the way I have not been battered by a riot cop, nor did I say that I was (only the occassional bruise) but other activists have in great numbers over the years. I was using this scenario as an EXAMPLE of how someone could get seriously hurt in a certain situation and then need emergency treatment , this was obviously too complicated for you to understand. I am not the only activist to be seriously injured but many activists do not want to talk about it and some are in fact dead, killed for their beliefs. The point of tripods is that if they are pulled over they become very unsafe a bit like pulling someone off a ladder, so presumably if I kicked a ladder from under someone 20 ft up it is their fault for being up there not mine?

Wiki, you are focusing only on medications and medical treatments, but EVERYTHING is tested on animals even tap water, what would you have us do there??

Let's keep thing to the point and not throw in your own agenda, I do believe you was pulled from an unsafe tripod and not battered by the riot police...
--->> I do not believe lynn was trying to say this was specifically about her but i can tell you now anyway that lynn is no stranger to the police and their baton happy ways. Just because you have heard of only one incident regarding her it dose not mean you know all or are you too far up your own arse to realise that.

The hypothetical situation you put forward is far fetched to say the least...
--->> What is far fetched about someone geting high blood pressure??

It's not the moral mind field you would have us believe. To stand outside a company to protest their links to vivisection just after you have come from a dentist appointment or even the doctors taking full advantage of vivisection is hypocrisy at it's finest!
--->> i would rather someone take animal tested drugs to stay alive so they can save lots more animals to be honest. It is nomore hypocrytical than a climate activist doing a BAA demo and wearing or eating something not uk made and probably flown in to this country.

What about cosmetic surgery? Or drugs used to change one's appearance?
--->> i believe that comes down to the individual but it's not my kinda thing.

I don't eat veg that has chemicals on them nor do I eat commercially organic grown veg. Organic doesn't mean it's chemical free by the way....
--->> WELL DONE, not how about yu come down of your high horse and look a bit closer at the screen you are reading, no doubt the computer you are using has some sort of animal based glue, animal tested component (i hope your not using wifi as that was defo tested on animals), or a part made by a company such as seimens who are a massive supplier to the vivisection industry!

To be honest i would like to know just how much activism you do, its great for someone to live the completely ethical lifestyle, but that wont save the planet or the animals that we share this earth with, what will is making people aware of the situation we are in and spreading the message now if that occasionally means geting on a bus that was made at a factory where thoose fly zapping lights where in use then so be it. i am a realist and beileve that for both earth and animal liberation we must occasionaly compromise our beleifs on a short term basis if we are then to achive our long term goals.



Wiki

@ chris --->> I do not believe lynn was trying to say this was specifically about her but i can tell you now anyway that lynn is no stranger to the police and their baton happy ways. Just because you have heard of only one incident regarding her it dose not mean you know all or are you too far up your own arse to realise that.

don't be silly Chris, NETCU know everything about lynn.

@everyone else,

ultimately we just have to all use common sense, I try not to use too many drugs, as I said above if I have a head ache I'll eat some poppy seeds, but if that headache doesn't go away, i'll take an ibuprofen.

Their was a woman in grimsby, she decided that all food contributed to the suffering of either humans or animals, she decided to live off sunlight and water. she got weak and ill, she refused treatment and died.

she lived very ethically in what she was doing. then she died. end of her life.
the most she contributed to the environment was being worm food. had she gone into activism, she could have saved lives.
i think its clear in this case, their where probably underlying mental health issues, but ultimately, you can't save lives when your dead. (unless someone throws your corpse over the barbed wire at HLS, and uses you as a ladder)

I can sort've understand why people would take drugs to save their lives, but taking animal tested drugs (which contain animal ingredients too) for something as trivial as a headache makes no sense.

If you have a headache it can be ignored, if it's particularly severe try white-willow bark (unless you are allergic to asperin). As a migraine and cluster-headache sufferer I know how intense they can be.

Also for many veganarchists it isn't an issue of "all things have been tested on animals at some point", more of the fact that they don't want to hand money over to big-pharma capitalists that make so much money from animal research NOW not than at somepoint in the past.

"Wiki I mistook you from someone who wanted to have a sensible debate, maybe someone who could contribute to the ethical dilemmas that many animal rights people have to face. Obviously this is not the case. I wonder what your agenda is here? (I think I can guess!).

By the way I have not been battered by a riot cop, nor did I say that I was (only the occassional bruise) but other activists have in great numbers over the years. I was using this scenario as an EXAMPLE of how someone could get seriously hurt in a certain situation and then need emergency treatment , this was obviously too complicated for you to understand. I am not the only activist to be seriously injured but many activists do not want to talk about it and some are in fact dead, killed for their beliefs. The point of tripods is that if they are pulled over they become very unsafe a bit like pulling someone off a ladder, so presumably if I kicked a ladder from under someone 20 ft up it is their fault for being up there not mine?"

How do you expect people to take you seriously when you change the rules to fit your own agenda? Let's take Viagra as an example, tested on dogs and used to aid erection in men. Would it be ethical to use this drug? If not then why since it's ok to take pain killers, tested on mice, to easy a headache? You can't have it both ways.

I still say hypocrisy and offer up the Mormon example of not having blood transfusions even if it means death. So tell us all why it's ok for an animal rights activist to stand outside companies and attack people in their homes because of their connection to the drug industry then go home and take those very drugs?

We read that it's ok for vegan AR activist to take pain killers yet it's not ok for my friend to use botox for a back problem!

Why can you take advantage of drugs and technology developed by the vivisection industry yet I can't eat free range eggs from hens I've raised myself?

What you all need to be doing is practising what you preach by going alternative, plants and herbs aren't tested on animals if you grow them yourself....

What about gender change operations and the drugs needed in the process that have been tested and developed on animals? Yes I can see the hypocrisy in what you stand for and all I can say is SHAME ON YOU ANIMAL ABUSER!!!

ultimately we can't escape, when buying expensive herbal remedy's, (which i can't really afford tbh)
the VAT is going to the government, which is going to fund labs, bombs and policemen.
i think people who take herbal remedy's are brilliant, loads healthier, more natural, and easier to obtain from the wilds.
but ultimately, everyone just has to do what they can, its all well and good moaning at each other, but we need to sort ourselves out. rather than airing our dirty laundry in public (on the fucking internet) we need to act as more of a community, supporting each other. i'd fucking love to take herbal remedy's, thankfully i rarely get ill (vegan power), but if i did i wouldn't know what to take, where to get it or what to do with it.
everyone has skills, its time we start practicing what we preach and help each other, i probably grow half the herbal remedy's people take in my garden, but without someone saying "you know thats a sedative" or "can i nick some of your whatever, it helps cure whatever" I'm at square 1.
we need to stop bitching at each other, and sort each other out.
we CAN end animal testing,
we CAN create the world we need
BUT we need to work together.

stan

ps this comment isn't angled at everyone, i know some people really do support everyone, and are a blessing to the movement.

Re Viagra, headache pills etc. Yes we should minimise the use of animal tested products. My example of the bloke with hypertension (this is not unknown you know), now if he was a heavy smoker and drinker to my mind he should sort himself out before taking animal tested drugs, but who am I to criticise?

If you do in fact know as much as you say you do why not guide people instead of being so judgemental and self righteous? I have been in a few situations where I have declined medication because I knew how to deal with a problem in another way. Certainly I would never criticise any other animals rights person for recieving medical treatment, or anyone else. A few things I would never countenance but I agree with you to a certain extent that we should be taking herbal preparations wherever possible.

Regarding drugs. Paracetomol, penicillin, ergot and morpine are all highly effective lifesaving medications which have been used by humans for decades (in the case of ergot, millenia). I believe that it is actually more ethical to use these drugs than for example an own brand floor cleaner on the premise that I can stop a fever which may kill by using paracetomol (an anti pyretic) with a product which has been used for generations, the floor cleaner was tested 5 years ago on animals, I can use borax or washing up liquid etc, or not bother. The old cut off dates used on cleaning products and cosmetics could easily be applied to medication the main problem being that the barstads keep testing the same things repeatedly, we do not ask them to.

Those who support vivisection wish to marginalise the animal rights movement by insisting that ANYONE opposed to vivisection should never recieve medical treatment. This is utter bollocks what we should be striving for is proper labelling on medication stating what is in it how it was tested and where. To refuse morphine, or a normal saline drip is not wise and certainly makes no moral difference. Refusing something such as Prozac, Baycol or Viagra is VERY sensible and ethical. We all have to pay into the NHS, many cannot afford to see a chiropractor. I would like to see herbalists, osteopaths, counsellors, aromatherapists and nutritionists swarm the NHS slashing the drug bill and invoking a new age of preventative holistic care resorting to drugs and surgery as a last resort not a primary one. Some are actually starting to campaign for much better labelling funded by the pharma industry to help everyone make informed choices for example whether or not animal products are present. I may choose to take paracetomol but will decline diclofenac because it has lactic acid in it.

Re Viagra, headache pills etc. Yes we should minimise the use of animal tested products. My example of the bloke with hypertension (this is not unknown you know), now if he was a heavy smoker and drinker to my mind he should sort himself out before taking animal tested drugs, but who am I to criticise?

If you do in fact know as much as you say you do why not guide people instead of being so judgemental and self righteous? I have been in a few situations where I have declined medication because I knew how to deal with a problem in another way. Certainly I would never criticise any other animals rights person for recieving medical treatment, or anyone else. A few things I would never countenance but I agree with you to a certain extent that we should be taking herbal preparations wherever possible.

""Regarding drugs. Paracetomol, penicillin, ergot and morpine are all highly effective lifesaving medications which have been used by humans for decades (in the case of ergot, millenia). I believe that it is actually more ethical to use these drugs than for example an own brand floor cleaner on the premise that I can stop a fever which may kill by using paracetomol (an anti pyretic) with a product which has been used for generations, the floor cleaner was tested 5 years ago on animals, I can use borax or washing up liquid etc, or not bother. The old cut off dates used on cleaning products and cosmetics could easily be applied to medication the main problem being that the barstads keep testing the same things repeatedly, we do not ask them to.

Those who support vivisection wish to marginalise the animal rights movement by insisting that ANYONE opposed to vivisection should never recieve medical treatment. This is utter bollocks what we should be striving for is proper labelling on medication stating what is in it how it was tested and where. To refuse morphine, or a normal saline drip is not wise and certainly makes no moral difference. Refusing something such as Prozac, Baycol or Viagra is VERY sensible and ethical. We all have to pay into the NHS, many cannot afford to see a chiropractor. I would like to see herbalists, osteopaths, counsellors, aromatherapists and nutritionists swarm the NHS slashing the drug bill and invoking a new age of preventative holistic care resorting to drugs and surgery as a last resort not a primary one. Some are actually starting to campaign for much better labelling funded by the pharma industry to help everyone make informed choices for example whether or not animal products are present. I may choose to take paracetomol but will decline diclofenac because it has lactic acid in it.""

You should stop using the very products you campaign against not minimise them because you are telling others to do so. If you use these products then you are just as bad as the people you campaign against!! What is the difference in your ethical judgement when it come to different products since the result is the same, animal suffering? What you are doing in your defence of using the very products you campaign against is putting yourself and your species above other species, think about that for a moment...

You can't expect others to stop supporting vivisection when you are supporting it yourself by using their products, it's hypocrisy. I'm comfortable with my living and I dare say I live a more ethical lifestyle than you so I can get on my high horse when asking questions of a hypocrite such as yourself. I don't try force people to end their contracts with the vivisection industry because I use products developed/tested by said industry. I don't like animal abuse and those that label people supporters of the vivisection industry because they don't think like you are just losing the battle...

It's people like you who help change my mind about activism.

Ok picky Wiki you win. I am a very bad activist who should hang her head in shame. Just in case you wanted more evidence of my wanton hypocrisy here is some more evidence:

I went on the train to world day in London, the trees alongside the track which should have been teeming with wildlife had been cut down.

I bought a book from the Vale Wildlife Rescue charity shop yesturday and the 60p it cost contributed to the coffers of big pharma because for example if a badger is admitted with a broken leg A VET WILL EXAMINE THE INJURED ANIMAL AND GIVE PAIN KILLERS AND ANTIBIOTICS. ooohh the shame.

In fact I have taken injured animals to the wildlife hospital, shit that's even worse.

Not content with my dark, amoral quest I then ate some salad from the organic box we get every week and it might have had a small creature on it, I was careful to clean the leaves without harming any insects but to be really honest Wiki in my wickedness I'm not sure if a greenfly was killed in the process of preparing dinner.

I have even driven on roads although I am opposed to ALL new roads being built when transporting myself and others to demos, sabs etc.

Bollocks! this computer is made in China, I loathe that repressive regime!

Unlike you Wiki I am a very flawed human being who has made many mistakes but is open minded, keen to learn and does her best. Yes I am often cantakerous, lazy and bad tempered but hey we can't all be perfect. I will continue to muddle through making decisions as I go for myself and by consensus. You can maybe write a manual on how we should all behave and maybe set up a 24 hour hotline so we can ring and ask you about various conundrums for example "its 03.00 we have just found a badly injured dog from a dogfight is it alright with you Wiki if we take the dog to the vets? If not what herbs should we use, where do we get them from etc".

It would be hypocrisy if you campaigned against the railway companies but you don't... On the other hand you do stand outside companies connected to the vivisection industry, in fact you have travelled to other countries to campaign against HLS, then you excuse yourself taking the very products they test on animals so you are able to live to save the animals!! Now that is bollocks and I would hazard a guess that you would would collectively save more animals practising what you preach.

Added to your life as a hunter I wonder how many animals have suffered in your name and it's no wonder you take this stance of using the very products you campaign against.... Would you forgive a child murderer for his crime and what does that say about the hunter who murders fox cubs while out cubbing? You do call it murder don't you, animal murdering scum is the chat is it not? So yes when it comes to animal cruelty YOU have made many mistakes, more so than the average person.

Your lifestyle and warped sense of vegan animal rights is what's the flaw. And I still say it's hypocrisy to campaign against a company then use it's products for what ever reason.

It's simple to read a book or google a subject on herbal remedies, I suggest your learn how. I myself wouldn't interfere with wild life regardless but if you come across a dog that was mistreated the what would the hypocrisy in the dog going to a vet to be treated? I haven't seen any dogs up a tripod campaigning against vivisection or the drug industry nor have I seen a dog D-lock onto a stall but I have you and that is the hypocrisy.

I'm against child labour so keep away from companies that use children I don't support the companies through purchases then claim it's important for me to keep warm while campaigning for the children!

AR activists are the worse sort of hypocrite!

Don't lump us all in as the same sort of hypocrite.

Some of us are true to our convictions. We realise it is easy to have principles when things are good but harder when there are problems. But we stick to them anyway.

I don't like to be thought of as a hypocrite just because some others are. Yeah there are plenty of hyopcrites in the AR movement - but there are loads of really genuine people too.

Too good to be true.
You do whatever you do, yes you are vastly superior to everyone else so us mere mortals will just continue to do our best which does include handing out leaflets printed with ink which may have been tested on animals at some stage and taking injured animals to the vets.

What has happened to the last 4-5 comments? Have they been deleted? If so, why? They were simply continuing the debate and didn't seem to break any guidelines.