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ALF Infiltrator exposed

Adrian Radford | 01.03.2009 09:01 | SHAC | Animal Liberation

A National newspaper has spoken to a police informant who infiltrated the ALF for 3 years!

The informant claims to have wrecked a number of SHAC attacks on high profile members of the establishment including Lord Sainsbury!


 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5821799.ece

Adrian Radford

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Why now?

01.03.2009 09:17

Why publish an article linking the ALF directly to SHAC now?

Looks like someone is trying to influence those still to be tried!

Jacob D

Load of tosh

01.03.2009 09:41

This guy was real - called himself Ian and claimed to be dying of cancer, obviously to try and explain away why he would suddenly disappear. No one believed him at the time, and no one really trusted him.

He didn't infiltrate the ALF - he tried to infiltrate SHAC but was seen for what he was. He was actually in the Navy, not the army, and has been since his disappearance with his squady mates, presumably while on leave. Like all of these idiots (such as the girl from Trevor McDonald who got outed before she could get started on her story, and the Mail journalist who got thrown out of the AR 2005 gathering) Adrian / Ian was as transparent as Steve Discombe's brain.

The fact that he didn't infiltrate the ALF is obvious from the fact that he had to paint his own car! Clearly there would otherwise be some footage of one of the actions he had taken part in. Seeing as no one has been prosecuted as a result of his evidence, and seeing as he has claimed to have taken part in serious criminal damage, presumably we can expect him to be prosecuted on his return to the UK?

It's quite funny really, that this guy acheived nothing, except according to the article, supplying SHAC with a nice beagle costume. Thanks NETCU - keep the gifts coming!

Ian Skivens

When Journalists and Infiltrators Lie...

01.03.2009 10:23

The article is laughable, and as usual for mainstream media just adds to the hysterics taking place against animal rights activists. The plots this man alledgedly foiled - I would like to see proof of this, such as recordings. Or, proof of anything claimed in this article, other than the word of someone who was quite clearly a liar trying to big himself up for a job he was obviously crap at.

As said by someone else here, this man was seen as the fake he was from the beginning and it is obvious he never succeeded in his job, leading him to have to buy a car himself and damage it, as well as develop far fetched stories about "stopping" these attacks which were apparently being planned. How convenient he managed to "stop" all these future things happening, gained no footage of anything other than himself causing damage and someone stroking a liberated chicken.

If he had discovered anything whilst undercover, it would have been used in the recent court cases against the individuals named in the articles. Think about it. This is the man that has supposedly infiltrated the ALF. And the police choose NOT to use ANY of his evidence in court? I think not.

So no, he didn't "infiltrate the ALF". Considering the huge expense of planting someone undercover, I'm certain that achieiving a libellous Times article wasn't what the police were gunning for.

Steve discombe violent thug

Found the Beagle costume!

01.03.2009 11:26

Scot Dog
Scot Dog

Looks Good eh?

Naomi Scott

Even so...

01.03.2009 11:56

I met Ian a few times socially and I really liked him, was sad to hear that he had cancer and am saddened by this turn of events. He knew that the Animal Rights gathering is not an "ALF meeting" and he knows full well that SHAC is NOT the ALF and that Greg, Natasha, Heather and Mel are NOT ALF leaders, the ALF is an idea, it has no leaders.
We are a friendly bunch (well apart from the grumpy sods) and around camp fires with a few beers people can and do get carried away with tall tales of derring do. At Climate Camp and at the AR gathering and all other places where we can be overheard or actually be talking to people such as Ian or the ITV Journo (yes I met her too we went for a drink in a pub in Oxford). This does enforce the need to be careful.
My advice to anyone who has no qualms about breaking the law (although I have to say that breaking the law is not something I would ever advise) is that you do not go on any animal rights demonstrations(or climate change, or anti fascist demos, ANY demos), you do not write letters to MPs or papers, you do not share your views with anyone unless you manage to have a small close affinity group, you do not look at any animal rights/environmental sites, if necessary you eat meat and wear leather as cover, you never join groups as a member not even the RSPCA. You DO get a job in a place like HLS and you DO whatever your conscience dictates in defence of life on earth. This as opposed to being clocked when you join VIVA,turning up at a demo or even a social then being filed by FIT, being arrested for some silly crap so they then have your DNA, your known associates, photo, fingerprints and if you are daft enough to answer their questionaire a list of tatoos,scars etc. Of course THIS is the stage that many people then chose to pop along to the local battery unit to liberate some chickens. Reverse the sequence of events (as some clued up people have) and it does eliminate the Ians of this world and make things a tad more difficult for NETCU et al!

Lynn Sawyer

Infiltrated other groups....

01.03.2009 13:35

Ian also infiltrated other groups such as climate camp and gay rights. Even gay rights campaigners face police repression

Kanga

Ooh another one.....

01.03.2009 14:15

Oh yes, the Mail reporter who's opening question to me was "what do you think of direct action?" He was sooooo obvious too!! I could state other ways they let themselves be known but we don't want to give the game away do we.....

Oh and Mel and Heather aren't boy/girlfriend so I don't really believe too much that's in this article.

Gran Canaria my butt.

:))

Who Cares.....

photo??

01.03.2009 16:05

just in case he decides to look for work in connection with the proposed new runway can anyone supply a description, or better still, a photo?

plane stupid supporter

Plane Stupid Supporter

01.03.2009 16:51

There is a picture of him on page 5 of the Sunday Times today. I doubt he will be asked to "infiltrate" other movements now as he is known - but if you want to see what he looks like, go get a copy.

Who Cares?

Abuse of Process?

01.03.2009 17:11

The article says that his evidence was not used against the SHAC defendants because the police just used evidence from sources that his information led them to. Also, the infiltrator was careful to observe police guidelines not to commit crimes during his activities.

Leaves me wondering if his existence as an informer was ever disclosed to the defence.

It might not have been disclosable under PII if the charges were simply criminal damage because there would be no direct evidence of him committing such crimes.

However, the fact and degree of his infiltration was relevant to the defences - because of the conspiracy charges alleged - due to the fact that he, too, would seem to have 'conspired' by working with SHAC members - thereby becoming arguably involved to a greater or lesser extent in the criminal act of conspiracy alleged.

Watch out for appeals for non-disclosure!

Doubting thomas

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AR movement needs to get in gear

01.03.2009 17:31

maybe, instead of clinging on desperately to a failing campaign (SHAC) on something that kills relatively few animals, AR activists should concentrate more on the more... er... obvious issues: fur, leather and, um, MEAT?

i expect the people involved will receive horribly politically-motivated sentences, which is terrible, but maybe a change of tack is needed?

ps. also i got a call from the proper Anarchist movement - they want their circled-A back please. kthxbye :-D

bobbo

Image

01.03.2009 17:43


This image was on the Times site. Is this him?

Me

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IMC UK is an interactive site offering inclusive participation. All postings to the open publishing newswire are the responsibility of the individual authors and not of IMC UK. Although IMC UK volunteers attempt to ensure accuracy of the newswire, they take no responsibility legal or otherwise for the contents of the open publishing site. Mention of external web sites or services is for information purposes only and constitutes neither an endorsement nor a recommendation.

Bobbo..

01.03.2009 17:58

The government have gone hell for leather in trying to crush SHAC what does that tell us about those hundreds of people involved in the campaign? That it works and that the state is terrified of other campaigns adopting the same tactics. After all why should nasty people like directors of Union Carbide who sat back and allowed untold misery unfold in India whilst taking fat cheques be allowed to enjoy their pitiful lives? Why should those executives of Shell and Coco Cola and Nestle not be reminded of those they have murdered in their quest for profit? No one will ever bring the corporations to justice except ordinary well informed people who have always actually respected the rights of these lowlife by not maiming or killing them. People can change and I live in hope of that.
SHAC activists are also involved in actions against the fur trade and meat industry, I do not know of any SHAC supporters who are not vegan. Many are involved in vegan campaigning and in other important campaigns, SHAC supporters were at Gaza demos and Climate Camp
Presumably there is some sort of committee to which activists should apply to use the anarchist symbol?

Lynn Sawyer

Yes - that's him

01.03.2009 18:14

With Natasha

Image

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IMC UK is an interactive site offering inclusive participation. All postings to the open publishing newswire are the responsibility of the individual authors and not of IMC UK. Although IMC UK volunteers attempt to ensure accuracy of the newswire, they take no responsibility legal or otherwise for the contents of the open publishing site. Mention of external web sites or services is for information purposes only and constitutes neither an endorsement nor a recommendation.

Bobbo you Wally...

01.03.2009 18:26

...Did the chief executive of the anarchist movement ring you personally or was it his secretary?
Was it after their board meeting at their head office when it was decided the Animal rights movement breached copy right laws. Has the chief exec contacted Lawson and cruttenden to sue the AR movement.............I must contact saatchi and saatchi for them to design us a new logo! asap...lol

A real Gem

Promo stunt

01.03.2009 18:34


An admission that agents pass between private, police and 'government' infiltration wholly undermines the credibility of the Shac convictions. Private security firms have a financial motive in encouraging, exaggerating and even fabricating 'extremist' crimes, such as peace protests, while destroying innocent lives. If Radford admits acting as a getway driver for a genuine crime then he should be prosecuted rather than be allowed to profit further from publishing a book.


I tried to post that comment on the Sunday Times website earlier but it wasn't published. First thing worth noting is that the newspapers former employee is writing the book for the guy. The Times report is full of inaccuracies and contradictions and seems a promotional stunt for his company blackchrysalis.com who describe him as "Adrian Radford, a former SIS (MI6), British Military Intelligence and UK police instructor" and claim to have another 43 like him.

Adrian publishes his own photo here, part of his range of Spy DVDs.
 http://www.eyespymag.com/front%20page%202007-8/dvd.htm

Danny

more images of Radford

01.03.2009 18:36

 http://www.eyespymag.com/front%20page%202007-8/dvd.htm

FTP

Link to photos of Adrian

01.03.2009 18:47

Here is a link to Adrian's anti surveillance DVD:  http://www.eyespymag.com/front%20page%202007-8/dvd.htm

There are lots of pictures on here of him which will give you quite a good idea of what he looks like. I am sure now he has blown his cover he is not intending to infiltrate any one else, but there is no harm in being aware of him, and his company: www.blackchrysalis.com

A.T

Prague gig in May, discounted DVDs

01.03.2009 18:56

(The other EyeSpyphotos aren't him just some gimp that looks like him)

Kurz: Countersurveillance tactics for Close Protection Officer Course: Countersurveillance tactics for Close Protection Officer
Instruktor: Adrian Radford - BLACKchrysalis (ex-MI6 instructor) Instructor: Adrian Radford - BLACKchrysalis (ex-MI6 instructor)
Termín: květen Date: May
Místo: Praha Location: Prague
 info@ibabodyguards.cz




10nov2008Ears PLC has long provided Black Chrysalis, a covert surveillance agency, with EARS Plc EP6699 hand portables, covert 2 wire systems and car sets. In September, Adrian Radford of Black Chrysalis, a former MI6 instructor, used 15 hand held radios with accessories on a 3 week film shoot on location in London and England for their newly released DVD "Am I Being Watched". This is the first ever DVD in the security industry designed to practically train operators in the once secret skills of Anti-Surveillance. Adrian Radford said "This DVD is a global first, filmed in high definition. These easy step by step lessons have never been shown before in this format. It demanded the highest quality and professionalism to shoot this very complex 90 minute DVD, and this would not have been achievable without the help from EARS Plc in providing us with our communications equipment."

Unlike other expensive branded radio sets on the market, the (EP6699 covert system and car set) is cost effective with a greater range and clarity than any other of its competitors, a field tested fact! Adrian and his team utilised all the radios throughout the shoot. He stated that without the clarity, extended range and affordability of the EARS Plc radios they simply would not have been able to achieve their task. "The service from EARS Plc has kept us a valued customer for years, we would go no where else and use no other equipment, even for our extremely demanding covert roles and communication requirements."

The DVD is available (December 2008) to purchase from www.BLACKCHRYSALIS.com with a special promotional discount of £10 off the RRP of £49.99 (£39.99) for EARS Plc newsreaders. Simply quote EARS Plc when ordering to receive your discount.


You know, if it wasn't for the IM guidelines we could publish his likely home address...

Big Ears

Presumably

01.03.2009 19:14

Adrian thinks it's OK to target people's homes, seeing as he admits to taking part in such actions himself. I doubt he would object to having his address published to others who might share his criminal mind set. Otherwise he would just be a hypocrit... and surely a man who lies about having cancer and being kicked out of the army due to his sexuality wouldn't want to be seen in a bad light...

Andy Testies

what is the Times' motive for publishing this article?

01.03.2009 20:19

The Times must have a motive for publishing this. They are well-known for being a mouthpiece for the government and especially for the intelligence agencies. This article must have been written at the request of the state and for a definite reason.

It sounds like this was a failed attempt to infiltrate animal rights groups by a Walter Mitty character who was probably scamming the security services for a lot of money as much as he was infiltrating the animal rights movement.

Maybe the state has done this to avoid losing face, to see what comments appear on places like this and on tapped phone calls, and to increase the level of paranoia amongst activist groups?

Any other possible reasons?

anon

How to anonymously publish information without getting Indymedia into trouble

01.03.2009 20:44

If anyone wants to publish information relating to this case that might get Indymedia into trouble, don't post it here.

The best way would be to download Freenet from here  http://freenetproject.org

Install it and it will connect you to an anonymous network where censorship is impossible and it is impossible for anyone, even your ISP, to tell who is publishing or looking at information, because everything is encrypted.

You can either create a simple website and upload it, or use one of the message forums that are on Freenet to post a message.

Once your message is there, you don't even need to stay connected to Freenet yourself - it is split up and copied to hundreds of other computers around the world, so it will be available for as long as people are interested in looking at it.

To read the information, you need to be connected to Freenet - it isn't visible from the regular internet. The more people that use it, the more useful it will become.

zed

State & Corporate Security inc

01.03.2009 22:47

-It sounds like this was a failed attempt to infiltrate animal rights groups by a Walter Mitty character who was probably scamming the security services for a lot of money as much as he was infiltrating the animal rights movement.

No. It looks like one of the many genuine ex-sis guys who is scamming corporations for non-existent threats, and manipulating convictions for pay. The invitation to IBA cz implies they checked his CV out. Just because is an arrogant and shallow liar does not equate to being a fantasist. 'Paranoia', being more careful who you work with, is your best defence / best practice.

-If anyone wants to publish information relating to this case that might get Indymedia into trouble, don't post it here.

Thought about it and decided not to publish it anywhere, to avoid getting people not smart enough to find it for themselves into trouble. Let's face it, there aren't any real animal rights terrorists, even if you think of yourself that way you would be unlikely to be able to face up to someone with professional training. For a start, you don't have guns or weapons training let alone experience. You don't win any cause by attacking the guard, you win by avoiding the guard, remaining anonymous to the guard as Lynn said. Nowadays the guard are making substantial personal fortunes by learning their skills on taxpayers wages before jumping into the 'manufacturing risk' business, infiltrating every innocent group they can persuade either the state or a corporation or both to pay for.

Noddy

Photo fit

01.03.2009 23:23

I can't afford to buy the rag and scan it in so can 'Who Cares?' or someone else do so? Crop it to the face but make it as high res as Indy permit.

Blyton

adrian who?

01.03.2009 23:47

...he's obviously a nobody trying to make a name for himself, by stabbing in the back those who'd welcomed him into their circles. He clearly holds no convictions of his own, and therefore he is nothing. A pointless individual. Hope he enjoys the cash - lets face it, it's the only way you could endure such a meaningless existence.

The cops are stupid letting him go public with this. Every time some lowlife informer or journo thinks that they're doing something new by 'exposing the ALF' for cash, they reveal more about their methods. For example, letting on about the elaborate way the saddo sought people's trust by trashing his own car. Many activists are savvy enough only to work with trusted friends, which is why resistance to animal expolitation continues to grow worldwide.

domestic extremist

Peter will know

02.03.2009 00:30

"He was alongside the activist Peter Tatchell during a raid on the pulpit of Canterbury Cathedral in 1998."

I suppose someone should liaise with Peter Tatchell, there was an 'Ian Farmer' pictured at the gay rights demo at Canterbury 1998

 http://rosecottage.me.uk/OutRage-archives/gall98.htm

No-one

the Ian Farmer on the OutRage demo

02.03.2009 01:23

Ian Farmer on OutRage demonstration in 1998
Ian Farmer on OutRage demonstration in 1998

Here is a cropped version of the person named as "Ian Farmer" on the OutRage demonstration.

It's not immediately obvious that it is the same person as the one pictured previously, though it was 10 years ago.

It could be he took on the persona of a real person called Ian Farmer who is nothing to do with him.

Maybe someone who knew him can say for sure whether it is the same person?

anon

Is this the same Ian Farmer from OutRage! Kent?

02.03.2009 01:31

Is this the same Ian Farmer as the one from OutRage! Kent? This is from only a few years ago and has his contact details at the bottom.

 http://www.ukblackout.com/gay-rights-community-114/253-medway-council-ends-partnership-ban.html

Medway Council ends partnership ban
Attention: open in a new window. PDFPrintE-mail

Monday, 11 September 2006 19:58

Community - Gay Rights
10 Nov 05

from: Outrage!
Faced with angry protesters from OutRage! Kent, Tory-controlled Medway Council voted at its executive cabinet meeting on Tuesday November to allow civil partnership registration ceremonies.


Medway had, since the bill received Royal Assent in Nov 2004, refused to allow ceremonies and refused to even discuss the ban.

It was the last council in the country to hold out against allowing lesbian and gay couples to have civil partnership ceremonies as part of the registration process.

However after a threat of legal action from a local OutRage! activist, Ian Farmer, Medway Council was forced to hold a recorded vote last Thursday (3 November).

"All the Lib Dem and Labour councillors voted for same-sex partnership ceremonies, but the Tory councillors voted against and the entire cabinet (all Tories) abstained," said Mr Farmer, a long-standing gay rights campaigner and organiser of OutRage! Kent.

"This impasse forced an executive meeting on Tuesday 8 November, where the cabinet relented and voted to allow civil partnership ceremonies," said Mr Farmer.

In a submission to the Council, Mr Farmer had argued that Medway council was discriminating against him and other same-sex couples by not allowing the ceremonies.

In response to Mr Farmer's threat of legal action, the Chief Executive of Medway Council wrote to the cabinet: "Registration with Ceremony is recommended so as to remove the possibility of a legal challenge."

Mr Farmer says: "They knew they were in clear breach of the ECHR and the Human Rights Act. When I asked them - in a formal council question and answer session - on what grounds are they going to defend this in the high court, they refused to answer. The council was obviously terrified of legal action and knew they had no lawful grounds for the ban."

Farmer is claiming victory in the campaign to win LGBT equality in the Tory heartland of Kent: "Thanks to two days of widespread local TV, radio and press coverage of the issue, and the lively OutRage! demo at Medway Council, lesbian and gay people have won an important victory against a die-hard homophobic council. Another aspect of discrimination has been overcome," he said.

"Despite this victory I will never give a single penny of my money to Medway Council for a gay partnership ceremony. They only relented because of the fear of legal action, not because they actually believe in equality. I will be taking my celebration to a more gay-friendly council that embraces LGBT people as equals," added Mr Farmer.

Mr Farmer urged others to do the same and boycott Medway Council for good.

Further information: Ian Farmer, OutRage! Kent - 07779 298259 and 01634 893844

For Medway protest photo contact: Brett Lock, OutRage!, 0770 843 5917.

anon

BBC report on gay activist Ian Farmer

02.03.2009 01:46

Gay activists Ian Farmer and Anthony Smallman
Gay activists Ian Farmer and Anthony Smallman

no definite proof yet that this is the same Ian Farmer, but could be a useful lead:

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4419522.stm

Gay 'victory' after wedding vote
Anthony Smallman and Ian Farmer
Anthony Smallman and Ian Farmer have been together five years
Gay rights campaigners have claimed victory as one of the last councils in the UK has voted to allow same-sex marriage ceremonies.

Ian Farmer, who led a protest outside Medway Council's offices in Strood, had threatened legal action if the council did not vote to allow gay "weddings".

"It is the right thing. At last lesbian and gay people in Medway can live free from discrimination," he said.

Cllr Tom Mason said: "I don't accept there has been a lack of action."

Loving relationship

Same-sex civil partnerships will become law in December but councils can stop them taking place in their register offices.

Gay rights campaign group Stonewall claimed Medway was one of the last councils to allow ceremonies.

"We are well ahead of the legislation," said Cllr Mason.

"This authority and myself would not want to discriminate against anybody."

Mr Farmer and his partner Anthony Smallman, live in St Mary's Island, Chatham.

"My partner and I have been together for five years," said Mr Farmer.

"We are in a wonderful, loving, happy relationship with a house, dogs, jobs, cars and all that kind of stuff.

"We have every right to this in a modern society and an equal world."

anon

another photo of Ian Farmer of OutRage! Kent

02.03.2009 01:52

Ian Farmer of OutRage! Kent
Ian Farmer of OutRage! Kent

from  http://ukgaynews.org.uk/Archive/2005nov/1002.htm

Is this the same Ian Farmer as the animal rights infiltrator, or was he just stealing someone else's identity?

anon

Interview

02.03.2009 02:36

Times - "After being told to leave the forces in 1994 because of his sexuality, he became involved in gay rights."

Eye Spy site interview with 'Adrian Radford' in which 'AR' is quoted as saying he's
been employed "in the covert world of intelligence acquisition and analysis" since the age of 17, that he was persauded to join the British Army Intelligence Corps and 'has never looked back'.

 http://www.eyespymag.com/plaintext59.htm


no-one

Adrian Radford linked to military fantasist James Shortt?

02.03.2009 02:55

From  http://www.meningrey.cz/magazine/?page_id=14

Kurz: Defence and Restraint Tactics
Instruktor: Jim Shortt - Director General of IBA
Termín: 28.-29.3.2009
Místo: Praha
Kontakt:  info@ibabodyguards.cz

Květen
Kurz: Countersurveillance tactics for Close Protection Officer
Instruktor: Adrian Radford - BLACKchrysalis (ex-MI6 instructor)
Termín: květen
Místo: Praha
Kontakt:  ibs@bodyguardservice.cz

Now Jim Shortt aka James Shortt is a well-known military fantasist who pretends he has a military history when he doesn't.

The British Army Rumour Service has a page dedicated to exposing him:
 http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/List_of_James_Shortt's_Dubious_Claims

Story on Indymedia.ie about him: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/89158

He was also exposed in Private Eye and the Sun:
Fake SAS man given Cabinet security job
 http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/article2183915.ece

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bodyguard_Association
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Shortt

Now look at the whois for bodyguardservice.cz:

contact: CID:ID122760773722671-MITONCZ
name: Vít Kraus
address: E. Dvořákové 168/25
address: Teplice
address: 41501
address: CZ
e-mail:  vkraus@email.cz
registrar: REG-MITON
created: 25.11.2008 11:08:58

and ibabodyguards.cz:

contact: CID:ID122475931593531-MITONCZ
name: Vít Kraus
address: E. Dvořákové 168/25
address: Teplice
address: 41501
address: CZ
phone: +420.603335187
e-mail:  info@krauss.cz
registrar: REG-MITON
created: 23.10.2008 12:55:17

Both registered very close together and with the same address.
If you look up the IP addresses of these domains, both go to 88.86.120.70

Very suspicious that Adrian Radford seems so closely linked to this man.

Maybe he is another Graham Hall - the career criminal who infiltrated animal rights groups and duped the press into thinking he had been branded on the back with the letters ALF?

anon

Radford is the gay activist

02.03.2009 12:06

I can confirm that Adrian Radford aka Ian Farmer is the same individual as the OutRage activist who demonstrated along side Peter Tatchell, including when they protested inside Canterbury Cathedral. Ian traded on this connection when he first became involved in the AR movement.

FTP

I was wrong, 'anon' is right

02.03.2009 12:23

I was confused by the number of IBA sites.
IBA do seem to be complete charlatans, so Radford will be too. Which doesn't reflect well on the Sunday Times, Jack Grimston or Nick Fielding.


Enid

No logo

02.03.2009 13:39

www.ibabodyguards.net contains an impressive list of other organisations logos, from the UN to, er, New College Swindon. One in particular struck my eye:

Microsoft Corporation
Security Training Provider
Vendor No. 002136968

I was curious why IBA are allowed to use the Microsoft logo in black, when everyone else qualified to reproduce it has to use a specific blue. Anyone can pay £65, pass a basic exam, and then use the logo, which is mailed out high-resolution in colour with a nifty tie-pin, but maybe being a Security Training Provider IBA get to dress it in black to match their balaclavas. Of course, they could have just saved themselves £65 and cut'n'pasted the logo. Even critics of Microsoft products admit their lawyers are efficient and well-resourced so I decided I'd ask them how I can become a Security Training Provider just like IBA are. Microsoft said 'What?'
I have a funny feeling Adrian won't be teaching in Prague after all.



xMCSE

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This posting has been hidden because it breaches the Indymedia UK (IMC UK) Editorial Guidelines.

IMC UK is an interactive site offering inclusive participation. All postings to the open publishing newswire are the responsibility of the individual authors and not of IMC UK. Although IMC UK volunteers attempt to ensure accuracy of the newswire, they take no responsibility legal or otherwise for the contents of the open publishing site. Mention of external web sites or services is for information purposes only and constitutes neither an endorsement nor a recommendation.

"there are no infiltrators in the AR movement" so I'm told.....

02.03.2009 15:08

Saying that there are infiltrators, NETCU, security services people etc in the AR movement has led to people being labelled as "mad" "lying" "paranoid" people who are "posting / spouting paranod crap"....Yet when someone does come out as or is exposed for being part of a security service there all these people who say "everyone knew and no-one trusted this person"....ACTUALLY what is happening is that half the time people from rival security firms / services are all fucking spying upon and spreading crap about each other. MI5 AND Specail Branch have infiltrated AR and still do. They are also rivals. Then there are journalists, security from HLS etc etc. I in fact believe that a number of people in AR are not what they seem including some people who you would never, ever think it of...Anyonew who disputes this is eoither just naively hopeful or one of these people themselves.

First of all, personally I do actually think that there IS a need for people who DO cause violence to others to be monitered...however this ISN'T the function of half of these people whose job it is to bully, incite people and to spread lies and rumours about people. Some of these people when they know they have been SUSSED will then make out that the people who have sussed them are "accusing everyone of being dodgy" or they will even try to set people up "for doing illegal stuff" when they haven't or make up other stuff about people to discredit them...i.e. dodgy conversations regarding non happenings or emails that make no sense...THIS is FINANCIALLY motivated most of the time rather than by a need for safety and security in my opinion.

Like I've said there IS a need for the security services, however this should never, ever be abused for monetary reasons and these services should be about SAFETY.

I do not agree with people who think that arson or bombing is OK because it isn't, so this is what I mean when I say that there is a need for some kind of monitering.

Shout at me if you must.

Also Lynn is right....anyone that goes on demos etc then goes home to put a balaclava on is treading a fine line and will end up getting caught or. Anyone that goes on demos then encourages other people to do dodgy stuff is likely to be someone other than they are making out....they are likely to be participating informant or "double agent".

Lastly.....we do not want ANY dodgy people "from the ALF" in our Camden Lab / Community campaign which should be made clear from the start. You either keep it legal or fuck off.

Mandy in Camden

Interesting what they said about what informants are allowed to do....

02.03.2009 15:18

Re read that bit...that informants are not allowed to encourage or participate in or incite "without high level police authority"....

The police aren't legally allowed to commit a crime but a participating informant is ... re read above.

The security services on the other hand ARE allowed to do all this stuff.

Mandy in Camden

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Take your hierarchy and fuck off

02.03.2009 16:37

"
Lastly.....we do not want ANY dodgy people "from the ALF" in our Camden Lab / Community campaign which should be made clear from the start. You either keep it legal or fuck off.
"

Nice of you to tell people who can and cannot get involved in a campaign. If those "dodgy people" want to get involved they will - wether you and your authoritarian demands like it or not.

Mandy, not from camden.

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I agree with Mandy from Camden

02.03.2009 18:45

There's nothing to stop the ALF / AR people doing what they like in your own campaign....however the community here in Camden want to keep it local. So actually we can decide who comes to meetings etc and who doesn't, most of us know each other already as we live here so it's not that difficult. If anyone starts suggeting that people do anything illegal they will be asked to stay away from meetings. Fair enough? Tough if you don't think so.

Camden Resident

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To the other Mandy [not from Camden]

02.03.2009 18:51

I think you'll find that I speak for most people in Camden and for real AR people who don't hurt anybody...if you find that "authoritarian" that's your problem. Same thing if you find that "hierarchical" as we did in fact come to a group decision to post this particular comment up. ; ) x

Form your own campaign if you don't like ours.

Mandy in Camden

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Does the state being authoritarian amount to a problem?

03.03.2009 08:19

Firstly, the ALF rejects physical violence towards all animals (human and non-human), thereby being "real AR people who don't hurt anyone".

Secondy how on earth do you speak for most people in Camden? I've encountered LOTS of people who have no problem with the facility being built (the fact that I find their view idiotic is besides the point - you clearly don't speak for them).

As I'm not a member of the ALF it's not upto me to form a campaign for them, but i'm sure they WILL be mounting their own campaign.


"if you find that "authoritarian" that's your problem. "

Not really - all it does is alienate real activists who might have got involved with your campaign. That makes it YOUR problem.

Mandy (from Bradford)

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Dear Mandy...

03.03.2009 08:30

"Lastly.....we do not want ANY dodgy people "from the ALF" in our Camden Lab / Community campaign which should be made clear from the start. You either keep it legal or fuck off."

Nice. You might want to wind back time and tell the people who freed the slaves not to, and inform them that they should sign a petition instead.

Oh, I hope you don't believe in rights for women either, being that the suffragettes ran a continued campaign of direct action, including bricking windows and burning down buildings to get the vote. Lets hope you don't see women as equal - that would be supporting such tactics now wouldn't it!

You better tell Nelson Mandela he is a 'violent terrorist' who 'hurts people' because of his anti-aparheid campaign which involved much more intense levels of direct action than ever used by the ALF.


"I think you'll find that I speak for most people in Camden and for real AR people who don't hurt anybody.."

Implying this and that the ALF have acted in violence is wrong, and you should make this clear that it is your hysterical opinion and NOT fact. Since when is damaging cars or property 'hurting' someone? The ALF act in non-violence to stop violence. You will find no incidences of the ALF hurting anyone. Whereas several activists have been killed by hunters and live exporters. Looking back over history, most social movements use extreme violence to gain their means; in comparison, the AR movement has been extremely held back. It's funny how once an event has finished, the media sees these people in much more favourable terms, because they can understand why these people acted and that they acted for good reason. It's sad that you are so short sighted you cannot see this either.

Various elements make up a campaign, sometimes illegal, sometimes legal, but if it weren't for ALF activity we would be in a very different place today. You are entirely entitled not to agree with the ALF or what they do, but you are out of line especially as a so-called 'activist' to be posting that the ALF are violent or wanting to hurt people.

Briany Cassidy

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Mad Mandy

03.03.2009 08:36

"we do not want ANY dodgy people "from the ALF" in our Camden Lab / Community campaign"

"we"? "our"? this campaign sounds more like Mandy's self-promoting attempt to make herself sound important.

"I think you'll find that I speak for most people in Camden"

whether they like it or not......

Camden Squatter

ITV

03.03.2009 11:47

following link shows Ian/Adrian being interviewed www.itv.com/news I did put this up a few hours ago but apparently it breached the guidelines!

Lynn Sawyer

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Replies to these people.

03.03.2009 13:01

1) Real people from the real ALF are real activists who campaign properly whereas dodgy people "from the ALF" are something else entirely such as Adrian Radford. Many people got that. We have got a situation where there are a number of issues involved and we do in fact have to be responsible with how a community campaign is run which means keeping it legal and legal only. How anyone cam have a problem with that is beyond me. I have also been accused of trying to "start riots" so it seems that people are desperately throwing things at me simply to attack the campaign.

2) I do in fact speak for most people in Camden who do NOT want this lab and want something else built here instead...whoever "Mandy" from Bradford is you are clearly wrong when you say people "want / have no problem with" the lab, because they do not want it here. Numerous letters to the Camden New Journal etc show this. Meetings at a community centre in Camden where people voiced their views also showed this. People at the meetings were unanimously and entirely against the lab. If you walk around the estates affected and speak to people you will find this. As there labs in the area already there will of course be people in the area whio are part of the industry or consortium who say that they supprt it...but anyone who lives here will also know that many of the scientists themselves are against the lab. I am in fact the spokeswoman for this particular campaign that I am part of...but I do NOT run it alone. Other people have posted stuff on here under the same campaign name and I / we have noticed that it is often the women who are attacked by other "activists".

3) "Making myself sound self important"...if any of you have actually BOTHERED to read ANY of the other postings put here by me / us here in the Camden campaign then you will know that the people who are IMPORTANT here in Camden are the YOUTH who have NO proper facilities and in some cases not even a HOME to go to. Some have been expelled from school and are in gangs who shoot each other dead. What we are trying to do is get something for THEM as well as more homes built for people.

For Camden Squatter ...as I've just said we are also trying to get homes built here.

All campaigns spokespeople and people who run them come under attack for having a big "ego" or being "self important" etc...usually by people who want to take things over becuase they themselves are greedy or after something...or becuase they belong to some kind of shifty cult posing as a "political party"....

I have a feeling that whatever we do is going to be wrong to some people and I can't do much about that.

Well done to the person who said that REAL AR people don't hurt anyone.

And from here....I have better things to be getting on with...like CAMPAIGNING.

Mandy in Camden
- Homepage: http://www.myspace.com/stopcamdenanimallab

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Yes ...this is our campaign. We are parents and community members inc. a vicar.

03.03.2009 13:22

As Mandy said...if you don't like this one ...form your own. There are anarchist and squatter groups who are also campaigning against this. If that is more your cup of tea join up with them and their campaign or start one yourselves.

There are other people in this campaign who want to keep this one as a community based, legal campaign and there is nothing wrong with that. Some of these people are against animal testing and some are vegetarian and some are not. We are campaigning for community facilities and homes here. Many of us have pets and have signed the online petition. We are just ordinary people living on an estate.

If you want to join a "direct action anarchist campaign" or want to form one...why don't you just do that? "Camden Anarchists Against The Lab" or something like that? We do not want to go around putting windows in etc but obviously there are people who feel strongly enough to do so which is why this is the wrong place to put a lab.

Everyone is different and all campaigns are different. Get off of Mandy's case...at least she is doing something which is better than doing nothing. I live here in on the estate in Camden and I do not want my kids getting involved in something that could get them arrested or in any other trouble so if we want to have a peaceful legal campaign then I'm all for that. As Mandy has also pointed out there are some terrible problems here in Camden and we don't need more. I think I speak for alot of parents when I say that I worry about my kids getting drawn into something illegal and I believe that a housing estate is the wrong place for this lab. The previous postings show just what kind of trouble lies ahead for the community because of this lab and the selfish people behind it. If anything or anyone is "mad" it's the people who thought up putting this thing here in the first place.

To anyone who has read Mandy's message wrong...Mandy has spent years helping SHAC and is well known in Camden from doing the SHAC stall. She also published a letter up here supporting her friend Heather Nicholson from SHAC who is well like in Camden and recently sentenced to 11 years for being in SHAC.

As we've said if you don't like this campaign....start your own. The more the merrier.

Camden Man
- Homepage: http://www.myspace.com/stopcamdenanimallab

@Lynn

03.03.2009 13:31

ITV don't maintain their video clips online so I could see the interview cached but I couldn't play it.
What was he asked, what did he say and what did you think of it?

Danny

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To "Mandy" from Bradford - I support Camden Mandy

03.03.2009 13:35

The "real" activists who you speak of...who are they? Define a "real" activist. Yes, there are people from the Animal Rights who are in fact ALREADY campaigning against this and are campaigning in their own way.

Many direct action campaigns are also authoritarian and have a heirarchy - it happens. If they don't start out that way they end up like it.

We are all campaigning on this in our different ways.

What I suspect is that the pharmaceutical industry and NETCU who wanted to place agent provocatuers into the campaign and make out that all AR campaigners are nutters who only know how to put windows in [resulting in innocent people being arrested]...are going to have a hard time doing this with strong minded plain speaking people from a council estate who have said "Keep it legal or fuck off". Personally I think this was a brilliant move by these people who are genuine campaigners!

I agree. Keep it LEGAL or FUCK OFF...I LIVE here!!

Lee

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Mandy didn't say that the ALF are violent

03.03.2009 14:09

What she did say is that the people in the Camden campaign want to keep it legal. So?!
What she did say is that she doesn't want any fake "ALF" activists causing trouble.
What she did say is that REAL animal rights people aren't violent and she is right.

What some of you DON'T KNOW is that there have been some very nasty people trying to get in on this campaign and are more than likely infiltrators trying to cause trouble. Members of the community told these people to fuck off to their faces and asked them to leave a meeting.

We are a COMMUNITY campaign not an "animal rights" campaign....many of us are against animal cruelty as are vets but we are peaceful campaigners. Vets don't go around putting people's windows in and neither do we.

We need homes here and youth facilties which is what we will fight for.

Candy Udwin is also an activist campaigning locally asking for council houses but she supports a lab. She is an activist. She is non violent and legal.

Mukul Hira is a Halal butcher who joined a protest against the lab at the Town Hall...he is an activist who campaigns legally.

Camden councillors are campaigning against the lab...legally and have joined protests. I suppose that you could ridiculously demand that "they put a few windows in" as you find this boring....but I doubt you will find a Camden councillor up for this.

This isn't an "anarchist / animal rights" campaign. It is a legal community one that will remain legal...we make no apologies for being so boring for the rest of you who might not like this.

Not all activists are the same and I suspect that these "Camden Squatter" and "Mandy from Bradford" don't know much about this campaign at all in reality.

I dare say that there will be students and anarchists and AR people doing campaigns as well. So if they want to do their thing seperately all well and good.

What on earth is wrong with you? Don't have a go at Mandy....this isn't a campaign along the lines of SHAC or SPEAK ...if that is what you want ...YOU do that.

I actually amazed at these silly comments against Mandy. The comment against her telling her off and having a go at her for keeping it legal "whether the rest of you like it or not" is the STUPIDEST thing I have ever read. I could understand someone having a go at her for the opposite but really what are you silly people like?....





anon

Danny

03.03.2009 14:35

Well he was VERY smug and smarmy. He was going on about stalls and how apparently the lifestyles of the SHAC "heirarchy" were funded by them (yep I remember it well £40 a week to buy food, toiletries and clothes with, less than jobseekers). He also said that the ALF were SHAC and that he had infiltrated the ALF. The funniest bit was when he said that 600 activists were going to invade Heathrow, well despite the efficiency of SHAC getting 600 people together in secret is well nigh impossible. Even with full on advertising national demos at most raised maybe 2000 people who wanted to just peacefully protest and go home. Getting 600 to go to Heathrow and partake of a little non violent direct action without using phones would have been an unlikely feat. There are more Climate Change protestors than SHAC protestors and even they get nowhere near these numbers when they do a runway invasion thing. I think he was telling a huge fib although I like to think that it would be possible. Maybe someone clever can get hold of this 6 minute interview, it was there when I put the origional post up. I tried last night but could not post anything up.

Lynn sawyer

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I live here too

03.03.2009 14:48

Most people who live here have priorities like getting kids to school, keeping them in school and feeding them. We have very poorly funded youth clubs here. We need decent facilities for young people. We council homes and somewhere for our kids to play.
I don't think that wanting these things without trying to be heroes like Nelson Mandela is so bad and I do not think that it is "hysterical" for local people to want their community campaign to stay a community based one, legal one. As a parent I DO speak fro most of the people around here that do not want this lab but we don't want trouble either.
If anyone is hysterical it is the pre menstrual sounding rants from these other people who sound like trouble making teenagers who don't have much of a clue about real life.
I agree with Mandy ...I do not think that we are going to get youth clubs and council homes put on our estate as a result of a few spoilt middle class brick throwers coming here causing trouble and who have NO IDEA how communities work.
I think that the person using the word "hysterical" has posted other comments against this local campaign ["shac supporter"?] and that this person clearly has an agenda of their own or that this is a personal spat...as this person uses this word all the time. The word "hysterical" comes from a misogynistic belief that being a woman [i.e. having a womb] causes "hysteria" and this led to Victorian doctors carrying out hystorectomies. Any real feminist or someone that believes in women's rights and knows anything about history [herstory] wouldn't use this word. I think that this person is a man who has some issues around women and doesn't like them.

I don't think that Mandy [or the rest of us] aspire to be Nelson Mandela and the comparison with him and the suffragettes is also a bit OTT in a campaign that is calling for local facilities in place of a lab. You need to calm down.





Camden Resident

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Adrain Bradford or whatever he's called....

03.03.2009 15:27

He has fibbed, fibbed, fibbed and fibbed again. Heather did not go out with Mel. I'm not going to write anything else about what I know or don't know but just about everything this weirdo has come out with in this interview are fibs, big fat fibs.
I suspect that this guy was just out to make some money and sees himself as some kind of Donal MacIntyre.

... I have noticed that everything I write is drawing alot of OTT comments from someone who is managing to turn pages about other people /other issues into an entire page about me. It is the same person every time [I'm sure that most people, other than people who live here in Camden, don't even know who I am and are not motivated to write so many responses about me...] and I am amazed that this person has nothing better to do seeing as this person believes themselves to be an "activist" but behaves more like a "histrionic" [his word] actorvist.... [doesn't have the balls to write his own name on here]...how are you helping the animals like this? Maybe you really need a break and maybe I should see that this is what's influencing your odd behaviour and maybe I should show you some compassion as I would a dog that bites when tired and grumpy.

What I suspect is that there is something else going on and that you should go and play with someone else. If you see yourself as Nelson Mandela then that is sad as this man has shown great bravery and wouldn't DREAM of stooping as low as you do in writing all these childish personal attacks against people.

Lynn has one of these stalkers too ..."Paul"...

[NO...this ISN'T the same person as the so-called "Camden Stalker" who really does have better things to do and other people to play with and who is infinately better looking...]

This is the last time I bother responding to any of this other wise it will turn into an online relationship and we all have better things to do with our time....


So....as for Adrian Radford....YOU are a journalist wannabe without any skill and I am shocked [although I shouldn't be] at the Times for writing all this made up rubbish. To the Times, you are supposed to be a "respected" journalistic source and you have written this like something for Aprils Fools Day.

I met a man once who had his facts wrong and accused him of reading the Daily Mail. He responded indignantly "I do not read the Daily Mail, I read the Times!". Quite. Oh...he er...accused SHAC of not only having their own "brick factory" where he believed that special bricks were specially made for activists to throw, he believed that the SHAC stall money paid for this brick factory. Where do otherwise educated people get this stuff from? This man was well spoken and seemed intelligent but he truly believed this. In the end he was humbled after speaking to the other person on the stall with me and apologised saying "it was the newspaper, it said"...Say no more.






Mandy in Camden
- Homepage: http://www.myspace.com/stopcamdenanimallab@yahoo.co.uk

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The postings from "Mandy from Bradford" "Briony" and "Camden Squatter" are one

03.03.2009 15:57

This person is clearly a troll who fancies and simultaneously hates Mandy. The same person wrote all three of these postings and may as well have said "na na na na with big brass knobs on you big poo" as well, as this is how childish this is.

This guy very clearly needs a break from whatever he is doing as he is wrecking the image of AR.

So...Briony, Bradford, or whatever your Brinking name is...sort yourself out you big soppy bollocks and stop behaving like a muggy little cunt.


And don't start rolling around banging on the floor screaming "But it's her! It's her! You don't realise what she's like!" while banging your feet and balled little fists on the carpet. All you're doing is winding yourself up and making yourself look like a div. Not only that but all your postings all look the same and everyone knows who it is. Stop it.

Dave

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Sigh...

03.03.2009 16:38

@Dave: Yea, yea, that's right, if you don't agree with someone just write OMFG!!!!1 They R a troll!!!!!1 You know, don't actually accept the fact that some people have different opinions, just accuse them of trolling and then everyone will agree with you.

I think it's fair enough for the camden lot to want to keep things legal - some campaigns work better that way - but saying they don't want any 'dodgy' ALF types or, heaven forbid, anarchists and squatters because it's a COMMUNITY campaign wasn't necessary and seems quite possessive. If you want to win you're gonna have to work together not tell people to fuck off.
My suggestion? Learn how to word things a bit better - had you just said, 'guys, we want to keep this legal, if you're gonna do illegal stuff please keep is way away from this campaign but by all means, if you want to help us then we would welcome the it.', then I doubt anyone would be having a go at you. Instead the way you put it made it seem like you were saying it's YOUR campaign, and only those from the 'community' (excluding all the dodgy people, naturally) would be welcome to join - everyone else can 'fuck off'.

Also: 'As a parent I DO speak fro most of the people around here that do not want this lab but we don't want trouble either.' -
'As a MOTHER...' = worst way to try to win an argument.
You can not claim to speak for most people who are against it, this suggestion that because you have managed to breed you somehow have infinite knowledge is ridiculous - have you spoken to everyone in camden? All the squatters too? Or don't they count? All the students? ALL the residents? No. So then I doubt they have delegated you to speak for them so I suggest you don't.

Ae

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Same Person?

03.03.2009 16:46

Now you are just being silly.

If I was feeling arsey I'd point out that whenever anyone criticises "mandy from camden" there is a raft of posts that all share the same one or two posting styles defending her. Someone a little paranoid may assume it's the same person...

As it is I'll just assume everyone in camden went to the same school...

I've never met her, I have no problem with her personally and I wish her (and everyone else involved) all the best with the campaign. What I don't like is the way she thinks she can tell people how to organise.

Maybe Dave is the one needing a break - or a change in your anti-psychotics.

Mandy (of Bradford).

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I agree with Camden and yep...that Briony / Bradford person is the same person

03.03.2009 17:54

What are you doing? The raft of comments appear to be coming from you. You are reading everything about Mandy then? Funnily enough most of us here did go to the same school and your misogyny shines through yet again you galumphing little napolean.

No, the "raft of comments" didn't all come from the same person unlike your troll ones that are all minutes apart...have you nothing else better to do? Goodness you really are a sad little thing.

You are also the same person as "shac supporter".

How on earth would you know who we have or haven't spoken to?

You have no idea about community and probably need a wash. Every time Mandy writes anything at all you post all this stuff up ...and don't tell little lies saying you haven't met her because people know you have and who you are.

Like they said ...if you don't like our community campaign...go and form your own. You quite clearly have some very serious issues around females, little man.

Never mind how we word things...the people who live around here and know us don't mind. If it bothers you then there's not much we can do about that.

This is clearly personal and I hear it is not the first time. [no not Mandy...OTHER women!]

I agree with Camden

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Get in your Panda Car and fuck off trollop.

03.03.2009 18:08

Go on get in your police car and get to fuck ..trolling fucking trollop!

You quite obviously have mental health problems.....and you are a woman....don't pretend to be Brendan either using names with a BR...in them.

I'm not gonna name you as I think you have problems.

Camden

LYNN

03.03.2009 18:31

Sorry for shouting, it is getting loud here!

You should consider contacting a non-Murdoch newspaper, I think your informed and reasonable comments would be the best antidote to Adrians misrepresentation. If you do so, please point out his links to James Shortt and his IBA, someone even the Sun has chosen to mock as a 'walt'. I think the squaddie song on this site applies to each of them:
 http://byronik.com/cqb.html

Danny

YOUR NOT KIDDING DANNY!

03.03.2009 18:54

Yep it's a bit busy on this thread but going back to our treacherous friend who looks like TinTin but with wrinkles and no lovely little dog, I don't think the press will be arsed about anything I have to say, I have tried on so many ocassions to get accross the fact that liberties we take for granted are being shredded and failed that I think we need a new strategy. We need to defend ourselves and some of us need to campaign against police/media oppression in a dedicated way to protect those campaigning against the desecration of animals and the earth. FITWATCH have made a good start.

Lynn Sawyer

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Are you two on acid?

03.03.2009 19:05

Mad mandy wrote "He has fibbed, fibbed, fibbed and fibbed again. Heather did not go out with Mel. I'm not going to write anything else about what I know or don't know but just about everything this weirdo has come out with in this interview are fibs, big fat fibs.
I suspect that this guy was just out to make some money and sees himself as some kind of Donal MacIntyre. "

It's obvious you are not as close to Heather as you make out since Mel and Heather did have a thing going for a short while. Since you don't have a clue as to what went on at the SHAC house then please tell us all how you know that "Alan" is telling "fibs" as you put it. From what I know of the man much of what he has said looks more like the truth than not.

Mad Mandy "Lynn has one of these stalkers too ..."Paul"... "

Since you don't personally know Lynn and I do then why am I not able to question what she says when I know it's obvious spin without your childish stalker/troll remarks?

Lynn wrote Well he was VERY smug and smarmy. He was going on about stalls and how apparently the lifestyles of the SHAC "heirarchy" were funded by them (yep I remember it well £40 a week to buy food, toiletries and clothes with, less than jobseekers). He also said that the ALF were SHAC and that he had infiltrated the ALF. The funniest bit was when he said that 600 activists were going to invade Heathrow, well despite the efficiency of SHAC getting 600 people together in secret is well nigh impossible. Even with full on advertising national demos at most raised maybe 2000 people who wanted to just peacefully protest and go home. Getting 600 to go to Heathrow and partake of a little non violent direct action without using phones would have been an unlikely feat. There are more Climate Change protestors than SHAC protestors and even they get nowhere near these numbers when they do a runway invasion thing. I think he was telling a huge fib although I like to think that it would be possible. Maybe someone clever can get hold of this 6 minute interview, it was there when I put the origional post up. I tried last night but could not post anything up."

Lynn, I can tell you that SHAC lived off stall money and their lifestyle was more than you make out. In fact, I spent a night out at the local pub with Nat and Greg while Alan looked after the SHAC house, all on his own I might add... Pints were paid for out of the tell tail money bag filled with pound coins collected from stalls. Stalls also paid for trips abroad where violent demo's took place. Nat went private for her back problem to be sorted out and this didn't come cheap! I could go on but I am well aware you know where all the stall money went, ask the Harris brothers...

The cat is out of the bag now so why do you keep trying to kid yourself? Nat and Greg organised most of the actions carried out under the ALF flag.

As for the airport demo's again this was just a play on numbers but the airport "invasions" did happen under the Gateway to hell campaign flag another brain child of Nat and Greg, the 0845 number was in the SHAC front room on the answer machine never answered, the numbers were not as big as claimed! The last SHAC video has an airport demo on it.

Just remember that they plead guilty.....

Paul

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Get a grip, please?

03.03.2009 19:08

I think the daily mail reading contingent of camden have made it quite obvious - anyone interested in really keeping the lab out of camden should have as little to do with them as possible.

Join some of the campaigns they have nothing to do with; start your own less divisive, more inclusive campaign.

The levels of paranoia on this thread is astounding - you should lay off the weed/speed imo.


I also agree with Lynn for the need to campaign against police/media oppression - as she says FiTWATCH is making an excellent start and hopefully more of us (at least the less mentally unhinged) will expand on that.

Mandy (of Bradford, nothing to do with Brendan, Briony or Brianny)

Worth a go

03.03.2009 19:14

I know the press are normally indifferent to the boring old truth, but never underestimate professional jealousy. Journalists hate journalists and take great delight in undermining their rivals stories. For instance the worst reviews for the Sunday Herald book 'War on Truth' came from the Herald reviewer.
Many activists are press-shy, once bitten, so if you aren't then all you have to lose is the time it takes to fire off a few emails. The great advantage you have is that Adrian will now be 'tied' into only talking to the Murdoch papers so I'd suggest trying the Independent or Guardian first.
I'd normally advise clearing anything you say about others in advance, but you seem too level-headed to need any advice from me. The risk is that you yourself get smeared by Murdoch but I think your first 'saddened' post here and your comment on the Times website gives you immunity from that.

Danny

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Paul

03.03.2009 20:18

I can only quote from my experience but you quote what? An entire night in a public house why the sheer decadance! So a few activists had a few pints after working 7 days a week since 1999 with a couple of days of for sickness and funerals and (from my own experience at least a 12 hour day, with days often merging into one another) who cares? If any activist has campaigned hard out of the goodness of their hearts and I gave a donation I would not be bothered about him or her having a well earned pint. Yes there are valid criticisms of SHAC but Greg and Natasha and Heather hardly led a life of luxury, bought from charity shops and put their entire lives into that campaign be fair. Maybe someone knowingly paid for Natasha's treatment which you say she had, maybe it did come from stall money, maybe you do have a valid point were you with her at the time?. From my point of view I would say that keeping a person like Natasha on her feet to continue the campaign rather than wracked with pain or zombiefied with analgesics is money well spent. I have spent compensation money (which a few regard as belonging to to everyone) on a chiropractor, an osteopath and a homeopath over the years for the lasting pain from injuries inflicted by PC Manton so I suppose that is wrong as well but we will have to agree to differ.

As for money spent on ALF stuff well I would not know about that and it would be silly for any high profile campaigners to do illegal stuff. What I do know is that so many people approached SHAC stalls and were supportive of the ALF. In fact many ordinary folk still are. Some went as far as wanting to test drugs on paedophiles and murderers a view which I would always challenge.

Lynn Sawyer

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One night of many...

03.03.2009 21:16

Lynn, this was just one example of many night drinking and not after stalls because the favourite "treat" for Nat and Greg, after a day on the stalls, was to go for a vegan buffet in Soho. Hard days work or not the money collected wasn't to keep Nat or Greg. Three vehicles, two houses, expensive Mac equipment, Mp3 players to keep Greg happy listening to his favourite rave music and private Krav maga lessons, all courtesy of money donated for the animals! I could go on but I'm sure you know all about the misappropriation of funds?

As for money spent on ALF stuff, well yes you do know all about that I'm sure.

Paul

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comments from "Paul" should be removed

03.03.2009 23:17

The comments from "Paul" are clearly from someone working for anti-progressive interests, be it the police, the government, animal abusers or whatever.

I suspect it is shacwatch but could be someone else.

They contain libelous personal insults and smears of good campaigners that aren't around to challenge them, and I think that is against Indymedia policy, so the comments should be removed.

anon

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Nice try Paul

03.03.2009 23:30

But if I remember correctly I have been to that buffet too £3.00 for a takeaway, £5.00 for a sit down meal. If you want to go on about people who work for campaigns and charities and rake in "expenses" you can do better than SHAC try IFAW or the RSPCA. I was once at a proper posh buffet paid for by an animal welfare charity by public donations with free champagne for all present prior to and after a TV debate about 15 years ago, the officials slept in hotel rooms and this is common and it is wrong. I myself did when I worked fulltime at SHAC depend upon a very small allowance of £40 per week and ended up with a large credit card debt for luxuries, it was that or fit SHAC around fulltime work. Your vitriol is wasted on SHAC and I remain rather bemused by it.
Anyway I am off to bed we will have to agree to differ, you think that Greg and Natasha lived in the lap of luxury AND controlled the ALF (an oxymoron in itself, they could have just got well paid jobs and not bothered with animal rights), I think regardless of what anyone might think of the campaign that they did their best, they worked their guts out and they bravely stood up to HLS as have many others. Shame that you did not publicly challenge them when they were at liberty to answer your allegations. Never mind goodnight.

Lynn Sawyer

Blogging

04.03.2009 02:22

"You should consider contacting a non-Murdoch newspaper"

Or newspaper blogging sections eg

 http://my.telegraph.co.uk

 http://www.express.co.uk/myexpress

 http://www.livejournal.com/integration/independent/learnmore.bml

 http://www.thesun.co.uk/portal/site/mysun/menuitem.2edf82f0083c7106d08b2c1249e02da0

No-one

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Oh dear..

04.03.2009 10:06

More selective editing.....

Paul

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To "Bradford" [miranda?] Re : "Daily Mail contingent of Camden"

04.03.2009 14:48

Most of us living here and working here are concerned with the alternatives to a lab and how to achieve those alternatives. As a community campaign we are being non divisive in that everyone here has a right to their say, including people that work in the NIMR laboratory who are against the lab, people that work in the fishmongers, butchers or leather shops on Camden High Street and so on who do not want the lab. We feel that if our campaign were to be an animal rights campaign that would be a divisive one for our community and none of these people who have an interest in the campaign and want to have their say would be included.
People campaigning against the lab and for alternatives include members of the Green Party, Lib Dems, Labour Party, Respect Party and SWP.

We include people from all sections of the community and have campaigned against the closure of the DDU which will be knocked down to make way for the laboratory leaving Camden's 4,200 class A drug addicts without help.

Campaigners have had meetings with members of Camden Council to discuss viable alternatives such as shops and cafes on the Brill Place site with community / youth facilities included in the plans. This should be combined with council houses on the site. We have also discussed an education project for the Hampstead Road site which we feel is a better alternative to a lab on the site.

We are in discussion at frequent intervals. We believe that an inclusive community campaign is more likely to achieve results for Camden and the community living here than a single issue animal rights campaign. As such a community campaign this is therefore a legal campaign. It is when we stated this that our campaign came under attack. I dare say that there may be few Daily Mail readers who don't want the lab but we have a couple of Guardian readers too.

Stop Camden Animal Lab [Saira and Mandy]

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Now that was a well written response to

04.03.2009 15:03

Now that was a well written response to the critics, and one people will find hard to complain against.

If only that had been posted originally instead of the incredibly divisive "fuck off AR people you aren't joining MY/OUR campaign" and "you need a wash" (and what? Needing a wash is a crime now?). Surely you can see that?

It's clear you have some level-headed people involved in the campaign, but as the comments here show you have your fair share of unhinged and right-wing nuts (the same as pretty much every campaign really). I think they are the ones you need to worry about; certainly more than some AR people who will be campaigning under their own banners anyway.

Mandy of Bradford (really Mandy, not Mirranda)

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The SCALlies are rioting. ;)

04.03.2009 15:06

As an aside, maybe SCAL isn't the best abbreviation for your group. ;) I can imagine the headlines the media will use against you already.

t'other Mandy

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Pirbright - new lab is being built there

04.03.2009 15:25

Who is doing anything about this? Is anyone?

Chloe

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Punk Lee : You need to tone it down a bit Lee babe.

04.03.2009 15:47

Lee you need to tone it down a bit. I know Lee and he means well but does need to quieten down a bit. Sorry Lee but it has to be said.
[I've already said it to his cute face xx]

Love the new hair - suits you.

anon

Please keep to the point

05.03.2009 02:16

This article is about exposed ALF infiltrator, Adrian Radford, aka 'Ian'.

However this subject is in danger of being swamped by off-topic postings about other campaigns & individuals.

Where-ever these other comments are coming from they are 'disruptive' or contain 'personal attacks'. Whilst some may be defensive or otherwise containing useful detail they loose context when the abusive comments are moderated out. If you find your comment removed at any time, please accept that this may not be directed at you personally, but part of a process intended to maintain the integrity and purpose of Indymedia.

Other campaigns & groups that have been the subject of debate here are well covered by postings of their own. Please discuss them there, (in a focussed but supportive way), and please keep this one to the topic of ALF infiltrator, Adrian Radford.

Indymediator

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