as good as the work that AATW do, there is no way you can equate their work for the work of Hamas in fighting the occupation. the most pressing concern on the ground now is bombs falling and occupiers shooting. now isn't the time when palestinians are fighting amongst themselves over who their eventual repressors may or may not be after the israeli occuaption is defeated.
and now is certainly NOT the time for english anarchists to be telling people who it is correct to support in the resistance.

I think it's disingenuous to try and claim that simply because Hamas are fighting the Israeli state that we are unable to criticism them. I also think it's naive to claim that these discussions should not be happening now. It is the most important time to be discussing who will make claims over Palestine when this conflict is over. The fact is that these wars are waged by theocrats and politicians when actually the Palestinian and Israeli working class are not enemies, yet they are being used or manipulated by their respective regimes to fight against each other or at least to hate each other. As we've seen already, some of the biggest demonstrations against what is happening have been in Israel. Whose conflict is this? It's not the poor mother and her children who have no food or the father and husband who cannot defend his family. It's Hamas' and the Israeli state and yet it is the mother and her children and the father and husband who are dying and suffering - And we are justified to tell the truth about this situation, no matter where we are! Solidarity among the international working class!

Furthermore, no one is telling anyone what to do. The opinion merely states that there are alternatives: Real alternatives and the struggle for liberation, both from the Israeli state AND Hamas has to start soon, otherwise there will be no Palestinian working class left!

Thank you for talking some sense Sheffield Anarchist, it is about time the anti-war agenda was reclaimed from some of the apologists and anti-semites that populate this board.

What a classic exchange. There are very few political arguments that make me physically nauseous. The one that goes along the lines that left wing criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic exceptionalism is one of them. Particularly because it always rears it grotesque head at precisely the moment when the left is trying to be honest about the fact that it or we, support Islamists in the middle east as the lesser of two evils. There was a time when resistance to Zionistic oppression took the form of Socialistic Arab Nationalism. But because of the meddling and repression of Israel and the US, their constant propping up of dictators, coups against, and refusal to negotiate with legitimate regimes etc etc etc, we now are in a position where supporting Arab democracy means making a pact with the devil.

However, we mustn't forget who is responsible for this situation. Who assassinated Arafat, deposed Nasser, installed the Shah, backed Saddam, backed the Taliban?? It was THE US AND ISRAEL.. And even as Marxists or Anarchists, we have to support democracy in the first and last instance, even if we're critical of its results ---- and Hamas are a democratically elected government! I am critical of Hamas --- but support the process that brought them to power and defend the society that their victory represents. It is the only one that could evolve into a class struggle in Palestine, unlike the Zionist colonialist project, which would just turn Gaza into a barely represented sweatshop, within an an Israeli canton.

"The one that goes along the lines that left wing criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic exceptionalism is one of them."
When did we say that? We completely and unequivocally condemn Israel's atrocities. Where do we say lefties shouldn't criticise Israel?

"However, we mustn't forget who is responsible for this situation. Who assassinated Arafat, deposed Nasser, installed the Shah, backed Saddam, backed the Taliban?? It was THE US AND ISRAEL.."
Completely true (although it is worth remembering that Israel's the US's client, not the other way around). We weren't trying to deny that US imperialism's created this situation, just to be clear about what forces can offer a way out of it (mass working-class action across the middle east) and which ones can't (self-serving militarists and politicians, whether they claim legitimacy in the name of nationalism, Islam, or anything else).

"And even as Marxists or Anarchists, we have to support democracy in the first and last instance, even if we're critical of its results ---- and Hamas are a democratically elected government!"
So's New Labour, but that doesn't stop them being our enemies.
"I am critical of Hamas --- but support the process that brought them to power and defend the society that their victory represents. It is the only one that could evolve into a class struggle in Palestine, unlike the Zionist colonialist project, which would just turn Gaza into a barely represented sweatshop, within an an Israeli canton."
That's not a particularly clear statement (Hamas's victory could represent any amount of different things to different people), but if open class struggle broke out in Palestinian society, Hamas would definitely be on the ruling class's side. If we agree that we both want to see Zionist colonialism defeated, and that Hamas is an enemy of the Palestinian working class, that we don't seem to disagree all that much, really.

"if open class struggle broke out in Palestinian society, Hamas would definitely be on the ruling class's side."

Would that be the same ruling class as the one that Fatah supports? Personally I doubt it very much .......

I think it is quite easy to support the Palestinian people without supporting Hamas or Fatah - but perhaps the confusion is caused by rebuttals of the lies which are told about Hamas as part of the demonisation process spearheaded by zionists and willingly engaged in by western states and the main stream media. You can rebut lies without signing up to the party.

Hamas have proven perfectly happy to break strikes when they've wanted to (medical staff for instance), and intimidated striking workers with AKs. For a period recently both they and Fatah took turns kidnapping or attempting to assassinate the same prominent trade unionists. Trade unions in Palestine may be corrupt and factional, but given both sides were attacking the same people, it all shows that Hamas, like the capitalist faction they are, would crush the first sign of working class self-organisation at gun point were it to appear.

As for a government being elected putting it past criticism, thats pretty mad. I take it all these Indymedia posters should stop criticising Israel because its actions are the work of an elected government too?

... this is one of the oddest comments on Indymedia I've seen in a long while:

"as Marxists or Anarchists, we have to support democracy in the first and last instance, even if we're critical of its results ---- and Hamas are a democratically elected government!"

Hello? Revolutionaries want to overthrow all governments, yes? While we do care about mass support for outcomes, and real participatory democracy, the results of elections aren't supposed to bother us... do you support Labour, because they're elected?!

In the furnace of war the most brutal tend to win.

In my opinion it is futile to suggest the only way out is for a 'palestinian revolution'. In a protracted war such as this the side that employs the most brutal methods tends to win. War brings hate, bitterness and intransience. Further, with such a heavily armed israel would be impossible to beat.

I think that the best option *under these surcumstances* is for one side to win quickly. without the constant conflict a level of peace could break out. Gaza has been without water for some time now (not to mention fuel and goods). Whichever side wins will lead to that side realising that there are millions of people in the opposing territories and short of removing them (genocide) the only other short/medium term solution is:
- a return to 1967 borders.
- People in Hamas have said that given a palestinian refurendum on this they would abide by that refurendum.
- In exchange israel could get an official recognition by the arab league. This would stop almost all outside support for "palestinian terrorist" organisations.
- If a pull out from Iraq happened at the same time then Iran could be brought into the fold.

Adding more anger into the mix will only prolong the stuff that is going on down there, the geneva conventions may be imperfect but they are a step up from where things stand at the moment. There might be anarchists over there doing good work but if you want a world revolution to start and are expecting it to start there then you are underestimating the effect that a prolonged war has on the participants be they states or non-states. Asking the people in gaza to topple hamas when they are short of water, food and fuel is abit much if you ask me and i think that maybe you should try toppeling the UK, US governments etc... first.