"a bloodthirsty, centuries-old mutually genocidal war thousands of miles away"

The truth my arse ....... zionism is a mere 110 years old and its an asymmetrical genocidal occupation- no way is there any evidence of it being "mutually genocidal" or a war .....- is solidarity with the oppressed not part of your class war then?

Haaretz a Newspaper Without a Country
By Christoph Schult
Its lonely fight against the occupation of the West Bank made Israeli newspaper Haaretz internationally famous. At home, the paper is fighting for survival.The irreverence of the Israeli daily newspaper Haaretz is visible from the first moment a visitor enters the paper's editorial headquarters. There in the foyer hangs an open pig's carcass, looking just as it would in a slaughterhouse. This one, however, is reproduced in pieces of candy -- red ones for the muscles, and yellow for the innards. The building's doorman is on hand to help interpret this installation. The sculpture, he says, is like the land of Israel itself: "Beautiful on the outside, rotten on the inside." Amos Schocken, publisher of Israeli newspaper "Haaretz.""The land" is also the translation of the name Haaretz, and the newspaper's problems are indeed linked with those of the country. What the paper offers in abundance -- a willingness to compromise with the Palestinians -- has once again become a fairly unpopular stance in Israeli society. One floor down from the foyer is the conference room. It's a windowless space and looks a bit like the nerve center of a war cabinet. This afternoon, Defense Minister Ehud Barak is here to visit the newspaper. What follows is a vigorous exchange of views. On one side is the country's most critical editorial department; on the other, the politician who has shifted the traditionally left-wing Labor Party to the right, to the point where Barak's opinions sometimes seem to hardly differ from those of nationalist Benjamin Netanyahu, leader of the center-right Likud Party.Barak, a retired general, presents himself as a hardliner and quickly wears the journalists down. The louder he speaks, the more the editors lose any desire to ask him questions. The minister bellows. He pounds his right fist on the table. Even the croissant he casually stuffs into his mouth can't stop the flow of his words. In the end, the editor-in-chief observes with some bewilderment "that just now we didn't interrupt you for 20 minutes."
Struggle for Survival
And so the contemplative Left has again lost to the noisy mainstream. It's a symbol for the newspaper's struggle to survive in its ever-more-lonely position as a well-respected daily. Abroad, Haaretz is known for its strong position against the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories. Its English-language Web site registers a million users each month. At home, however, only 66,000 Israelis buy the paper. Founded in 1919, the paper was acquired in 1935 by Salman Schocken, a businessman who had fled Nazi Germany, where he had owned a department store chain and a publishing company. From 1939 on, Schocken's son Gustav shaped the paper's liberal, left-wing bent. Schocken's grandson Amos has been chief executive of the Haaretz group since 1990.
His father, says Amos Schocken, 64, was still able to take more interest in the editorial aspects than in the finances of the paper. But times have changed, the founder's grandson says: "The paper has to make money." And that's not easy. In 2006 the family sold 25 percent of its shares in the newspaper to Cologne-based publisher Alfred Neven DuMont. At the time of the sale, Schocken handed the new investor a sheet of paper outlining the newspaper's editorial principles. The German publisher read the list and then pointed to the last item: "'Haaretz supports efforts to achieve peace with Israel's Arab neighbors." That, DuMont said, is especially important.The only problem is that actively advocating peace negotiations is a fairly unpopular position in Israel at the moment. Shortly after the end of the Six Day War in 1967, Haaretz was already promoting the return of the occupied territories in exchange for peace. With the 1994 Oslo Accords, majority Israeli opinion also began to swing in this direction. But the happy marriage between the newspaper and prevailing public opinion didn't last long. With the beginning of the second Palestinian intifada in 2000 and the accompanying suicide attacks in Israeli cities, the land and "The Land" once again went their separate ways.Subscribers began to abandon the paper in droves. The most common reason given by readers who canceled their subscriptions was one journalist, Gideon Levy, the country's most radical commentator. Once a week in his "Twilight Zone" column, Levy writes about the fate of Palestinians. He writes about taxi drivers whose vehicles were destroyed by Israeli soldiers or about a man whose wife was delayed at a checkpoint while having an acute heart attack for so long that she died. "If we change this newspaper's DNA," Levy warns, "we won't survive."

This conflict is thousands of miles away, why bother?

We should not take side with either side. These are all the proven actions of the scumbags who run this conflict, and to support either side is to support the ruling class who do this stuff year after year, whether you like it or not.

We should not support this bloodthirsty class of rich capitalists bastards fattening up in Gaza and make life for their own people a misery.

Down with the capitalists of Gaza! These damn carpetbeggars in their small shops, uuh!
These ignorant land owners who settle the land and don´t till it and exploit the palestine working class.

We´re socialists. We should concentrate on class struggle. But we should not support the palestine working class in Gaza. We should concentrate on OUR own class struggle. Internationalism is a distraction. We´re not international socialists - we´re NATIONAL socialists.

Death to Ahmadinejad and his puppet Hamas criminals. Your end is near.

Ahmadinejad needs to answer to why funds from Iran bank through oil profits from the last several years are missing. Funds that were set aside for social programs especially in times when the economy is in turmoil and the people are suffering. Hamas need to stop putting their own people in harms way for their own benefit of gaining power and greed from feeding off of Ahmadinejad's dirty hands.

Some hilarious replies here. Whoever made the crack about the palestinian working class doesn't seem to have noticed that the working class everywhere have a much more pernicious enemy than any of your dodgy "Zionist conspiracies" in the form of the ruling class... in their case their own ruling class. The palestinian ruling class, and all the arms dealers and other ruling classes that support them... using their people as cannon fodder, (sometimes literally, as human bombs) to advance their own factional interest.

If you think that supporting Hamas supports the Palestinian working class then you are wrong. Hamas are a militaristic gang of religious fundamentalist, fascist nuts. They bomb children. They send children out to bomb children. Hamas are scum, lacking the technology of the Israelis they use their own people as cannon fodder. They're an anti-woman, ultra-conservative clique. And you support them because another bunch of bastards are attacking their property?

Ultimately if you support the likes of Hamas you're not a leftie because you're supporting a conservative agenda for Palestinians - church and state and war - and a wollie liberal one for yourself. You don't want to change the world, take over the whole damn bakery etc, just find someone else to blame for how it is and support one lot of right wing religious fanatics over all the others.

That's your perogative, I suppose, if you don't like women, Jews, etc, fine, I just wish you wouldn't tarnish the good name of Socialism this way.

"The truth my arse ....... zionism is a mere 110 years old and its an asymmetrical genocidal occupation- no way is there any evidence of it being "mutually genocidal" or a war .....- is solidarity with the oppressed not part of your class war then?"

You mean perhaps "the latest incarnation of zionism is a mere 110 years old" (but you really should have said ~130 years). There have been periodic waves of zionism in the past, a few resulting in some resttlement, others not even getting to that stage. But zionism has been a consistently recurring theme.

But the point the original post was trying to make is that this conflict is OUTSIDE the fight "class war". The idea often put forward is that everybody should drop their other interests (subordinate those) and concentrate on the fight between capitalism and socialism. The problem is that it's up to each person what is most valuable to him or her self.

So yes, these "other fights" serve as a "distraction".

tell us what we should be doing whilstr we ignore Gaza.

Theres certainly no news on this thread so far.,

How about reading a book or two and finding out a bit more about the world you live in, rather than assuming that everything is the simplistic Good Guys Vs. Bad Guys universe portrayed in the media (both mainstream and "alternative")? How about finding out what class struggle actually is instead of whining about poor opressed Hamas and the other religious fundamentalists (who are in fact opressors of Palestinians, especially women), how about using that knowlege to run your actual, real life instead of wasting your life on middle class protests that acheive nothing? You could help homeless people get into empty buildings and live in them, you could join a trade union if you have a job, or if your unemployed you could start a claimants union and help others and yourself get more pay or benefits.

Or maybe if class struggle and socialism are not for you, and you insist on seeing the world as a struggle between nations rather than classes, then stop pretending to be a radical left winger when you are in fact a wierd mutated cross between a wet liberal and a rabid, right wing Islamic fundie nutcase? At least that way you could at least get some snappy uniforms out of the deal.

Just a suggestion, like...

to occupation is a right. The Israeli State is an oppressive aparteid state. the majority of people who 'dare' to express support usually express support for the Palestinian people, not Hamas, so stop dissing them. Hamas was anyway elected, but you probably don't support elections do you? Palstinian territories cannot really be said to have a fully functioning 'state' to unite against, never mind an exploiting 'ruling class' of capitalists. what you see in Hamas resistance in Gaza is more akin to the self-organisation of the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto. you would support the self-defence of Jewish people shoved into a ghetto and starved to death or picked off one by one by the Nazis?

An interesting article on the Guardian website about the well-oiled pro-Israel propaganda machine includes this line:
"The hasbara directive also liaises over core messages with bodies such as friendship leagues, Jewish communities, bloggers and backers using online networks."
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/02/israel-palestine-pr-spin
Could it be that the rather bizarre comments on here are part of that initiative? They certainly don't seem to reflect the reaction of the general public to the Israeli attack, let alone that of the type of people who usually use Indymedia, who tend to be angered by the sight of babies and children being blown apart by the armies of the western capitalist system....
Since when did any of us put aside our feelings of solidarity with other human beings in the name of some abstract concept of "socialism" or whatever?

"Since when did any of us put aside our feelings of solidarity with other human beings in the name of some abstract concept of "socialism" or whatever?"

I understand what you are getting at here. Of course, there is a natural (and entirely correct) tendency to feel appalled at what is happening in Gaza at the moment just as when Palestinians commit their atrocitities. However, the answer is not to rush into action as if action is the opposite of "abstract concepts". Unfortunately, most of the groups in the left today see their job as being to support the weaker capitalists over the stronger ones and to ignore any sense of class whatsoever. Look at the statements coming out from whichever group on the left you care to think about and search hard for any sort of class analysis whatsoever. Think about the appalling lack of analysis visible in the recent protest marches - the one I was on revolved around claims of Israeli "genocide", that killing children was a crime (presumably only when Israelis do it) and waving Palestinian flags around. More an ill-thought out apologia for Palestinian nationalism than anything else.

Of course, there is little that appears "concrete" about sticking to internationalist principles at this time and it is easier to tailgate Palestinian nationalism in the search for action than to appear marginalised (as internationalist viewpoints unfortunately are).

"Could it be that the rather bizarre comments on here are part of that initiative?"

Of course, it should be well known that this is happening. The Israeli's clearly have a well-oiled machine up and running and the comments on here are simply the sound of this machines cogs turning over.

The majority of the people of this country are appalled by what the Israeli's are doing and don't see it in terms of socialism versus capitalism. They don't see this as a political issue at all. They see it as a moral issue and their objections are morally based. In exactly the same way that they saw the Iraq war as a chance to stand up for the nations natural moral condemnation of those who were doing the war-mongering.

In truth, if one is objective (and morally unimpeded), one can see this machine simply being the cause of Israel's long-term problems. Isn't it always the case that those who believe that power is might is victory are the very people who, ultimately, bring about their own destruction. Therefore, those factions within the Israeli machine (is "machine" a good word to use, would "sqeaky wheel about to fall off" better sum things up?) that wage war, are, in and of itself, an enemy of all!

Its a shame of course. We in the UK grew up with the accounts of our fathers, mothers and grand-parents telling us the brutal stories of that terrible barbarism that gripped Europe during their time. We all grew up with this strong in our hearts.

Is it as strong now? Not really.

The problem is that the excuses given by the Israeli's and their supporters just doesn't do it anymore. Home-made rockets indeed!

What would the analogy be here in the UK. The British government carrying out the air/sea/land bombardment of Northern Ireland during the troubles and Belfast ending up looking like Beirut circa 1980!

Utter nonsense.

I don't think people can purely blame Israel and not have a go at Hamas at the same time.
Hamas "Hates" jews. They want to kill as many as possible - all of them if they could.

Some recent quotes from Mahmoud Zahar (Hamas political leader):
“They have legitimised the murder of their own children by killing the children of Palestine, they have legitimised the killing of their people all over the world by killing our people.”
These are the words of a leader who wants to murder jews.

"Victory is coming, God willing.”
These are the words of an irrational man who believes in the supernatural.

Put that together and you have an irrational, hateful wannabe murderer.
If he had the weapons at his disposable, he too would kills hundreds.

I mean wow... anyone who disagrees with you is part of the conspiracy?

On a bit of a tangent, but did you know that accusing people of being police infiltrators is the favoured tactic of police infiltrators? This goes all the way back to COINTELPRO, the Feds would infiltrate a left wing group and start accusing everyone and anyone of being a police spy. The idea wasn't to get intelligence, but to break the morale and solidarity of the targeted groups by breaking down the trust between activists. So watch what you're doing when you run around denouncing everyone you meet as a police spy... ;-)

I know, dullsvilles. Anyhow.

Actually I'm as disgusted by the current Gaza bombing / invasion as you are, I'm just also pissed off that it's become an excuse for antisemites to swop consipiracy theories and that the demos are a venue for plonkers like this: (see picture)

That's why I don't go to anti-war demos anymore, they're full of people like you, who support one evil (terrorism) against another (militarism) and who by doing this bring shame upon the good name of pacifism.

I don't want to be associate with people who support Hamas and I want to point out that if you do yourself, you cannot in good faith describe yourself as any kind of socialist (except the "national" kind - speaking of which I hear Stormfront are bigging up Hamas too - perhaps some sort of solidarity movement is in order, after all, nazis are people too!)

Those cowardly ISMers certainly aren't courageous enough to realise your truth, that by opposing the murder of innocents and physically standing with them, they are directly supporting Hamas. Obviously they should have responded in the true socialist tradition from Stalin to Blair and just ignored such massacres. They should have followed your advice to stay home and read "a book or two and finding out a bit more about the world". Reading books and criticisng others, that's where true courage lies, rather than that showy self-promotion going on in Gaza. Especially brave to snipe from behind a pseudonymn, after all your revolutionary zeal would doubtless be punished by the state if you chose to express your love of book-reading here.

I remember that "wierd mutated cross between a wet liberal and a rabid, right wing Islamic fundie nutcase" Ewa Jasiewicz arguing that to be an anarchist you have to first be a socialist, something I don't agree with. If only I had you there to illuminate us both with your superior wisdom and amazing courage to speak the truth.

You're funny "Paul Pot", (if that is indeed your actual name), I'm not the one who starts identifying myself and my fellows as "we are all Hamas / Hezbollah", I'm not the one who made the banner you see in the pic and I ain't the one who turned a highly popular anti war movement into at best a religious thing for Muslims and Trots and at worst, a venue for hate filled conspiracy theorists to blame the Jews for the economic collapse and the war.

Anyway. Tell us more of how brilliantly effective it is to tell everyone that we actually on the side of the terrorists, and how pernicious and wrong it is to read books and be criticical.

We know that books usually end up getting burned when totalitarian freaks like you are in charge, so could you perhaps give us a short list of that which you will tolerate - or is all book larnin' as bad as a thousand Hitlers?

Or alternatively you could recognise that the correct political viewpoint is driven by analysis rather than just deciding which side is the most courageous. Hell, I'm sure lots of people in Israel are equally courageous as ISMers or those in Gaza - it doesn't mean either of them are correct. And, yeah, if you're going to go there and endorse Palestinian nationalism you would be better off staying at home and reading a book as you're doing nothing to further working-class solidarity or internationalism.

..funny over your head?


"You're funny "Paul Pot", (if that is indeed your actual name)...and how pernicious and wrong it is to read books and be criticical. "

I'd suggest you read at least one book on the Khmer Rouge and at least one book that explains irony to you.

"We know that books usually end up getting burned when totalitarian freaks like you are in charge, so could you perhaps give us a short list of that which you will tolerate - or is all book larnin' as bad as a thousand Hitlers?"

However bad burning books is, and it is, it is far preferable to burning children. There is a time to read and reflect, and there is a time to act. I can name one and a half million people who don't have the option to sit and reflect just now, nor the light to read nor the peace to reflect. There is a duty on goverments to intervene and stop genocidal acts but there is also a legal and moral duty for each and everyone of us to intervene.


"And, yeah, if you're going to go there and endorse Palestinian nationalism you would be better off staying at home and reading a book as you're doing nothing to further working-class solidarity or internationalism."

I endorse the right for Palestinians to claim their own national state without being slaughtered. That is hardly the same as endorsing Palestinian nationalism. I support the two state solution as a necessary stepping stone towards a no-state solution. I am not going to respond to lectures on working-class solidarity by someone ignoring the plight of a work-class nation being starved and shelled.

Pointless bickering. If your going to do something - do it. If not, do'nt.
The most effective thing you can do is go there and stop the tanks.