I'm not one to cry 'anti-semitism' every five minutes on the least of pretexts, and I've been to the protests outside the Israeli embassy, and will continue to go.

But I have to say this. Our movement should no accept the identification of the Star of David with the Swastika - in one of the photos above, a sign is shown with the images overlaid. Perhaps people do this because they are confused, rather than because they mean badly, but in any case, it must be challenged. There are two reasons we should oppose this.

1. The Star of David is a symbol of Jews and of Judaism. Yes, it has been appropriated for the Israeli flag, but it is *not* just a symbol of Israel. Images such as those above imply: "jews are like nazis". This is clearly a disgusting implication.

2. Even if the Star of David symbolised Israel, and not the international Jewish community, the implication would still be false. In matter of quality and quantity, Israel and Nazi Germany are simply not alike. Compare the numbers killed by each! Of course, all states, and all states in which militarism and nationalism are strongly presence have some characteristics in common - they are somewhere on a spectrum. But these two cases are simply not close. I doubt that, since '48, Israel has killed even 1% of the numbers killed by Nazi Germany in a dozen years. Pretending otherwise is hysteria, and plays into the false world view whereby Israel is posessed by some sort of evil, rather than being entirely typical of the way capitalist states act - such as Russia in Chechnya.

And before anyone gets on their high horse, I used to live in Gaza and I have friends there now. That doesn't mean I accept anti-semitism. Frankly, it's concerning that no one has commented on this before.

If you see someone with one of these symbols, have courage in your convictions: challenge them in a firm but non-aggressive manner.

And on another, slightly more practical note, don't put pictures of people's faces up when they're doing something illegal like burning a flag. Are you trying to help the cops?

Have to agree about the use, but it's not so uncommon on demonstrations in the Britain I've found. It would be good if people questioned those holding them. I notice that in this case the Jewish Anit-Zionists didn't?

As far as I know it's not been made illegal to burn flags in the Britain.

The burning of a national flag is NOT illegal, your confusing the UK with the US where the burning of the stars and stripes is arrestable.

However you may be arrested for a public order related offence (sec 5 poa etc)

pub quiz moment, did you know that the state of Isreal only realy got a chance after a boat carrying Jews went on hunger strike and the UK (administering palastine at the time) was brow beaten into allowing them to land.
One of the plans for the establishing of a Judeic state was one of the UKs colonies near the horn of africa the land was available a very good terms and the locals were very happy with the idea at the time.

I counted about 25 people in those pictures just like those you see on the news, have you notice that the new media always show close up shots for dramatic affects and never pan the real picture to give size or scope of the demo. And yet people complain to the media in general for not showing real truth. You doing just the same as those nasty media type.

i think it's totally appropriate to equate the swastika to jewish flag. reason? the israeli regime really are acting like their former oppressors the nazis. during the second world war, when anyone from the french, norwegian, dutch etc resitance killed just one of their nazi occupiers then the nazis would retaliate by killing at least 10 of their countrymen - sometimes an entire village. presently the israeli/palestinian kill ratio is 1:92. spot the similarity, is that shocking and shameful or what?

also don't complain that the photos tend to show detail and closeups rather than the entire crowd. it's just a fact that those types of pictures are far more interesting and appealing than ones that just shows the entire crowd as a sea of pink dots as faces. just have a look through random pictures on indymedia and you'll see that most of the pro photographers tend to take detail shots from a crowd and they look far more interesting than the typical shots that amateurs invariaby take of the entire crowd that basically all look the bleeding same. in fact you can make a very small demo look like a larger one by taking such pics and specifically not showing how far the crowd extends. i've been to the demo three days in a row and the numbers have been in the high hundreds each day.

why are trying to belittle this protest?. The Orthodox jews Ive seen on the protests seemed to get quite a positive reaction, yep the star of david swastikka banners are abit wrong, but wtf are you on about Jo, which new media are you on about the "lefty " BBC who keep going on about hamas rocket attacks loads & hamas as just terrorists rather than a government as legitimate as the Isrealis themselves. Though myself & many millions of people feel extremeley dissillusioned with governments voted in every 5 yrs who then represent financial power interests rather than the people & would rather have real direct social & economic democracy,look it up.

yes u can be nicked because burning a flag ..i was and i know many people who did and got arrested ...so to the photographer next time dont put the faces of people doing samething illegal or can give info to the cops for possible aRREST or even radical info about hardcore muslin in uk .....dont help the pigs SOLIDARITY NOW

"why u guys from the indymedia dont show the real people in the demo i was there and was at least 200 to 300 people .....get real and show the real news ..or u guys are just another stupid ignorante corporate media"

Indymedia doesn't show it if you don't report it. That's what the difference is from the Corporate Media. If you haven't posted the pictures showing the 200 or 300 people that's why they aren't here.

Surely the point of using a swastica is to remind Israelis and the wider world how easily the oppressed can become the oppressors or victims of genocide can perpetrate their own genocides. It's a very powerful short-hand but I don't believe it's racist in this context.

"yes u can be nicked because burning a flag ..i was and i know many people who did and got arrested ...so to the photographer next time dont put the faces of people doing samething illegal"

Yes, people have been arrested for it, but that is not the same thing as being illegal thankfully.

Tarrique Ghaffar wanted to make it illegal but failed, see  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6095260.stm and  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6096810.stm

I disagree with the first comment. It is not simply a matter of how many the Nazis killed and how many the zionists killed. The zionists are as if not more cruel than the Nazis.

Look at the history of Palestine, the Nakba, Qana massacre, Lebanon 2006, Shabra and Shatilla, ramming the Aid boat organised by free gaza, rachel corrie, ITN news reporter, Tom Hurndell, Muhammad Al Dura, Gaza Seige, Pregnant women being forced to give birth at check points, racist laws of Israel discriminating against non Jews, Apartheid regime, human shields, targetting children, collective punishment, use of chemical weapons.

The above list are just the tip of the iceberg.

Creation of the state of Israel was planned by the zionists in the 19th Century. It is tru that Uganda was a proposal for the creation of the State of Israel but the zionists rejected all proposals and would only accept Palestine. The British betrayed the Arabs by not giving control of Palestine. The British promised the Arabs, Palestine for their help in fighting against the Ottomans but as is common with British Colonial power they did not keep to the agreement. Even when the terrorist Israeli Stern and Irgun gangs blew up King David hotel killing British servicemen.

Offering other peoples land is/was outrageous but typical of the bloody colonialist!. Why couldn't the murderous europeans offer part of Germany for example to the Jews?

Please look into the creation of Occupied Palestine and the other Middle East countries carved up by the colonial powers. For example Kuwait was always part of Iraq and one day will be part of Iraq again.

[REPOSTED DUE TO EDITOR'S CENSORSHIP. EDITOR _**WHY**_ DO YOU KEEP DELETING THIS POST???]

"The Star of David is a symbol of Jews and of Judaism. Yes, it has been appropriated for the Israeli flag..."

WELL, THEN YOUR *REAL* ARGUMENT IS WITH THE MAJORITY OF _ISRAELI JEWS_, THE INT'L _PRO-ISRAEL LOBBY_, AND THE STATE OF _ISRAEL_ ITSELF FOR EMPLOYING THE STAR OF DAVID AS AN *IDEOLOGICAL* AND *POLITICAL* SYMBOL.

ANY POLITICAL IDEOLOGY AND POLITICAL SYMBOL IS OPEN TO DEBATE, CRITICISM AND EVEN, IF NECESSARY, MORAL *CONDEMNATION*.

THIS INCLUDES --NO LESS-- *THE STAR OF DAVID*.

AND ESPECIALLY AT A TIME LIKE THIS, YOUR ARGUMENT SHOULD NOT BE ABOUT WHAT THOSE WHO ARE _*OPPRESSED* BY ISRAEL / ZIONISTS_ --- AND ISRAEL'S / ZIONISM'S *VICTIMS* --- ARE DOING TO ISRAEL'S POLITICAL SYMBOLS, BUT WHAT ISRAEL / ZIONISM IS DOING TO *THEM*.


(And, *NO*: it is *NOT* illegal to burn an Israeli flag in Britain. And *NOT* even in the *United States*!! -- *YET*.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"In matter of quality and quantity, Israel and Nazi Germany are simply not alike."

THE RACIST IDEOLOGY AND THE POLITICAL MYTHOLOGY OF NAZI GERMANY AND THE STATE OF ISRAEL ARE ALMOST *IDENTICAL*:

BOTH SOUGHT TO RESURRECT SOME "GLORRRIOUS ANCIENT KINGDOM": SOME GLORRRIOUS ANCIENT TEUTONIC KINGDOM FOR THE NAZIS, AND SOME GLORIOUS ANCIENT JEWISH KINGDOM FOR THE _NA_tionialist _ZI_onistS.

BOTH WERE/ARE BASED ON "PURITY OF BLOOD" AND ETHNIC SUPREMACY: "ARYAN SUPREMACY" FOR THE NAZIS, AND "JEWISH-SUPREMACY" FOR THE _NA_tionalist _ZI_onistS.

BOTH WERE/ARE BASED ON AN "ENGATHERING" OF THEIR RESPECTIVE "RACIAL" GROUPS: RELIGIO-ETHNIC GERMANS FOR THE NAZIS, AND RELIGIO-ETHNIC JEWS FOR THE _NA_tionalist _ZI_onistS.

BOTH ENGAGED IN ELIMINTATION OF OTHER UNWANTED ETHNIC GROUPS: THE ELIMINATION OF UNWANTED JEWS BY THE NAZIS, AND THE ELIMINATION OF UNWANTED PALESTINIANS BY THE _NA_tionalist _ZI_onistS.

BOTH USED TERRORISM AS A WEAPON OF FEAR: IN FACT, ISRAEL WAS *FOUNDED ON *TERRORISM* (THE TERRORISM OF THE IRGUN AND THE STERN TERRORIST GANGS, AND OFTEN IN COLLABORATION WITH OR BY THE HAGANAH ZIONIST MILITIA, AND LATER THE STATE OF ISRAEL ITSELF).

BOTH USED TERROR BOMBING AGAINST CIVILIANS: THE NAZIS THEN; THE _NA_tionalist _ZI_onistS SINCE THEN.

BOTH, NEEDLESS TO SAY, ENGAGED IN _MASS COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT_ AGAINST CIVILIAN POPULATIONS AS **STATE POLICY**.

BOTH DISENFRANCHISED ITS UNWANTED ETHNIC GROUPS FROM THEIR BUSINESSES AND THE ECONOMIC SYSTEM (AND, IN THE CASE OF THE PALESTINIANS DESTROYED THEIR ORCHARDS AND FARMS).


ISRAEL HAS TREATED THE PALESTINIANS PRETTY MUCH THE SAME WAY THE NAZIS TREATED THE JEWS, JUST SHORT OF THE NAZI DEATH CAMPS THEMSELVES.

BUT, EVEN THOUGH ZIONISTS / ISRAEL HAVEN'T KILLED 6 MILLION PALESTINIANS, THE *GOAL* OF THE *TOTAL* ELIMINATION OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE _IS *EXACTLY* THE SAME_ IN THE _DESIRE_ OF MOST ZIONISTS / ISRAELIS --- AND MANY ISRAELI JEWS _**OPENLY**_ SAY SO.

IN FACT, ISRAEL HAS TURNED APPROXIMATELY _6 MILLION_ PALESTINIANS INTO REFUGEES FROM THEIR OWN LAND -- AN HISTORICALLY IRONIC NUMBER, NO?

AT A TIME LIKE THIS, I THINK YOUR CONCERN SHOULD BE MORE ABOUT WHAT ZIONIST JEWS ARE DOING TO *PALESTINIANS* AND *OTHERS*, THAN WHAT *SOME* OTHERS ARE DOING TO _THE POLITICAL SYMBOLS_ OF AN OFFICIALLY AND IDEOLOGICAL *RRRACIST*, TERRORIST, APARTHEID STATE.

IN FACT, ZIONISTS HAD HISTORICALLY TRIED TO *COLLABORATE* WITH THE NAZIS.

(See the book, _51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis_, by Lenni Brenner -- adamantly ANTI-ZIONIST JEWISH-AMERICAN SCHOLAR, author, and one of the world's foremost authorities on the history of Zionism.)

THERE ARE THESE AND OTHER COMPARISONS OF ZIONISM TO NAZISM -- AND ANY NUMBER OF JEWS OF MORAL CONSCIENCE HAVE *MADE* SUCH COMPARISONS.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IN FACT, IT WAS NO LESS THAN ALBERT EINSTEIN WHO SAID:

"IT WOULD BE MY GREATEST SADNESS TO SEE JEWS DO TO PALESTINE'S ARABS *MUCH* OF WHAT NAZIS DID TO JEWS."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, so-called "anti-racist", I find it curious that your concerns are more with Israeli symbols and flags that they are about MUCH MORE URGENT matters of LIFE AND MASS DEATH at hand.

I think you are *less* an "anti-racist" and *more* of a _ZIONIST_.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUT, LASTLY, WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS *WHERE ARE ALL "THE GOOD JEWS"*!?

WHY ARE *MOST* OF THE WORLD'S JEWS EITHER ZIONISTS OR APATHETIC?

VERY FEW **VERY COURAGEOUS JEWS** ARE ANTI-ZIONISTS -- AND EVEN THEY ARE HARSHLY HARASSED AND OFTEN PHSICALLY THREATENED BY ZIONIST JEWS

-- ZIONISTS WHO EMOTIONALLY AND FINANCIALLY **TERRORIZE** ANY CRITICS WITH PUBLIC STATUS, THE ONLY TERRORISTS LEGALLY ALLOWED TO OPERATED IN WESTERN COUNTRIES TODAY.

AT LEAST "THE GOOD GERMANS" -- OFTEN CONDEMNED FOR THEIR SILENCE BY, ESPECIALLY, TODAY'S *JEWS* -- HAD THE QUITE RATIONAL EXCUSE OF THEIR FEAR FROM A NAZI REGIME THAT SHOWED NO HESITATION AT MURDERING, ASSASSINATING, IMPRISONING, OR EXTERIMINATING ITS CRITICS.

"THE GOOD JEWS" OF THE WORLD DON'T FACE ANYTHING LIKE THIS TODAY.

WHERE ARE "THE GOOD JEWS" OF TODAY IN CONDEMNING WHAT ISRAEL IS DOING TODAY AND FOR DECADES AGAINST THE *INDIGENOUS* PALESTINIAN PEOPLE?

-

To the previous poster (Barbarism = Zionism = Racism):

Maybe your post was deleted because you have used ALL CAPITALS?

It's well-established that it is much harder to read and it makes you look like a nutter, even if the actual content is interesting. So please do yourself and us a favour and use proper sentence case!

thanks.

@non: "please don't use ALL CAPITALS! ... Maybe your post was deleted because you have used ALL CAPITALS? ... It's well-established that it is much harder to read and it makes you look like a nutter, even if the actual content is interesting."


First of all, maybe an EDITOR could _politely *INFORM*_ me.

Second, well, I can't look like a _"nutter"_ (I guess that's a British colloquialism?) if the content is _*"INTERESTING"*_: that's a contradiction in terms, isn't it.

Third, my post is definitely *NOT* hard to *READ*.

I used *CAPS* to generally differentiate my rebuttals from the original inane quotes and for *EMPHASIS*.

Finally, if I can't be excused for being MORALLY *EMPHATIC* (especially against some Zionist fallaciously arguing against Naziesque comparisons and nitpicking over symbols) in times like these (given my *compellilng* and *enlightening* rebuttals) --- WHEN 1.5 MILLION INDIGENOUS PALESTINIANS' LIVES ARE ON THE LINE in history's *LARGEST* concentration camp -- created by Zionist Jews who's own people were once in concentration camps *themselves* --- then WHAT *would* warrant MORAL *EMPHATICNESS*?


(Other than that, font issue taken.)

-

"The Star of David is a symbol of Jews and of Judaism. Yes, it has been appropriated for the Israeli flag..."

WELL, THEN YOUR *REAL* ARGUMENT IS WITH THE MAJORITY OF _ISRAELI JEWS_, THE INT'L _PRO-ISRAEL LOBBY_, AND THE STATE OF _ISRAEL_ ITSELF FOR EMPLOYING THE STAR OF DAVID AS AN *IDEOLOGICAL* AND *POLITICAL* SYMBOL.

ANY POLITICAL IDEOLOGY AND POLITICAL SYMBOL IS OPEN TO DEBATE, CRITICISM AND EVEN, IF NECESSARY, MORAL *CONDEMNATION*.

THIS INCLUDES --NO LESS-- *THE STAR OF DAVID*.

AND ESPECIALLY AT A TIME LIKE THIS, YOUR ARGUMENT SHOULD NOT BE ABOUT WHAT THOSE WHO ARE _*OPPRESSED* BY ISRAEL / ZIONISTS_ --- AND ISRAEL'S / ZIONISM'S *VICTIMS* --- ARE DOING TO ISRAEL'S POLITICAL SYMBOLS, BUT WHAT ISRAEL / ZIONISM IS DOING TO *THEM*.


(And, *NO*: it is *NOT* illegal to burn an Israeli flag in Britain. And *NOT* even in the *United States*!! -- *YET*.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"In matter of quality and quantity, Israel and Nazi Germany are simply not alike."

THE RACIST IDEOLOGY AND THE POLITICAL MYTHOLOGY OF NAZI GERMANY AND THE STATE OF ISRAEL ARE ALMOST *IDENTICAL*:

BOTH SOUGHT TO RESURRECT SOME "GLORRRIOUS ANCIENT KINGDOM": SOME GLORRRIOUS ANCIENT TEUTONIC KINGDOM FOR THE NAZIS, AND SOME GLORIOUS ANCIENT JEWISH KINGDOM FOR THE _NA_tionialist _ZI_onistS.

BOTH WERE/ARE BASED ON "PURITY OF BLOOD" AND ETHNIC SUPREMACY: "ARYAN SUPREMACY" FOR THE NAZIS, AND "JEWISH-SUPREMACY" FOR THE _NA_tionalist _ZI_onistS.

BOTH WERE/ARE BASED ON AN "ENGATHERING" OF THEIR RESPECTIVE "RACIAL" GROUPS: RELIGIO-ETHNIC GERMANS FOR THE NAZIS, AND RELIGIO-ETHNIC JEWS FOR THE _NA_tionalist _ZI_onistS.

BOTH ENGAGED IN ELIMINTATION OF OTHER UNWANTED ETHNIC GROUPS: THE ELIMINATION OF UNWANTED JEWS BY THE NAZIS, AND THE ELIMINATION OF UNWANTED PALESTINIANS BY THE _NA_tionalist _ZI_onistS.

BOTH USED TERRORISM AS A WEAPON OF FEAR: IN FACT, ISRAEL WAS *FOUNDED ON *TERRORISM* (THE TERRORISM OF THE IRGUN AND THE STERN TERRORIST GANGS, AND OFTEN IN COLLABORATION WITH OR BY THE HAGANAH ZIONIST MILITIA, AND LATER THE STATE OF ISRAEL ITSELF).

BOTH USED TERROR BOMBING AGAINST CIVILIANS: THE NAZIS THEN; THE _NA_tionalist _ZI_onistS SINCE THEN.

BOTH, NEEDLESS TO SAY, ENGAGED IN _MASS COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT_ AGAINST CIVILIAN POPULATIONS AS **STATE POLICY**.

BOTH DISENFRANCHISED ITS UNWANTED ETHNIC GROUPS FROM THE ECONOMY AND THEIR BUSINESSES (AND, IN THE CASE OF THE PALESTINIANS DESTROYED THEIR ORCHARDS AND FARMS).


ISRAEL HAS TREATED THE PALESTINIANS PRETTY MUCH THE SAME WAY THE NAZIS TREATED THE JEWS, JUST SHORT OF THE NAZI DEATH CAMPS THEMSELVES.

BUT, EVEN THOUGH ZIONISTS / ISRAEL HAVEN'T KILLED 6 MILLION PALESTINIANS, THE *GOAL* OF THE *TOTAL* ELIMINATION OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE _IS *EXACTLY* THE SAME_ IN THE _DESIRE_ OF MOST ZIONISTS / ISRAELIS --- AND MANY ISRAELI JEWS _**OPENLY**_ SAY SO.

IN FACT, ISRAEL HAS TURNED APPROXIMATELY _6 MILLION_ PALESTINIANS INTO REFUGEES FROM THEIR OWN LAND -- AN HISTORICALLY IRONIC NUMBER, NO?

AT A TIME LIKE THIS, I THINK YOUR CONCERN SHOULD BE MORE ABOUT WHAT ZIONIST JEWS ARE DOING TO *PALESTINIANS* AND *OTHERS*, THAN WHAT *SOME* OTHERS ARE DOING TO _THE POLITICAL SYMBOLS_ OF AN OFFICIALLY AND IDEOLOGICAL *RRRACIST*, TERRORIST, APARTHEID STATE.

IN FACT, ZIONISTS HAD HISTORICALLY TRIED TO *COLLABORATE* WITH THE NAZIS.

(See the book, _51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis_, by Lenni Brenner -- adamantly ANTI-ZIONIST JEWISH-AMERICAN SCHOLAR, author, and one of the world's foremost authorities on the history of Zionism.)

THERE ARE THESE AND OTHER COMPARISONS OF ZIONISM TO NAZISM -- AND ANY NUMBER OF JEWS OF MORAL CONSCIENCE HAVE *MADE* SUCH COMPARISONS.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IN FACT, IT WAS NO LESS THAN ALBERT EINSTEIN WHO SAID:

"IT WOULD BE MY GREATEST SADNESS TO SEE JEWS DO TO PALESTINE'S ARABS *MUCH* OF WHAT NAZIS DID TO JEWS."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, so-called "anti-racist", I find it curious that your concerns are more with Israeli symbols and flags that they are about MUCH MORE URGENT matters of LIFE AND MASS DEATH at hand.

I think you are *less* an "anti-racist" and *more* of a _ZIONIST_.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUT, LASTLY, WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS *WHERE ARE ALL "THE GOOD JEWS"*!?

WHY ARE *MOST* OF THE WORLD'S JEWS EITHER ZIONISTS OR APATHETIC?

VERY FEW **VERY COURAGEOUS JEWS** ARE ANTI-ZIONISTS -- AND EVEN THEY ARE HARSHLY HARASSED AND OFTEN PHSICALLY THREATENED BY ZIONIST JEWS

-- ZIONISTS WHO EMOTIONALLY AND FINANCIALLY **TERRORIZE** ANY CRITICS WITH PUBLIC STATUS, THE ONLY TERRORISTS LEGALLY ALLOWED TO OPERATED IN WESTERN COUNTRIES TODAY.

AT LEAST "THE GOOD GERMANS" -- OFTEN CONDEMNED FOR THEIR SILENCE BY, ESPECIALLY, TODAY'S *JEWS* -- HAD THE QUITE RATIONAL EXCUSE OF THEIR FEAR FROM A NAZI REGIME THAT SHOWED NO HESITATION AT MURDERING, ASSASSINATING, IMPRISONING, OR EXTERIMINATING ITS CRITICS.

"THE GOOD JEWS" OF THE WORLD DON'T FACE ANYTHING LIKE THIS TODAY.

WHERE ARE "THE GOOD JEWS" OF TODAY IN CONDEMNING WHAT ISRAEL IS DOING TODAY AND FOR DECADES AGAINST THE *INDIGENOUS* PALESTINIAN PEOPLE?

-

SO, YOU'RE MORE CONCERNED WITH ISRAEL'S *SYMBOLS*, THAN WITH ISRAEL'S *VICTIMS*.
03.01.2009 20:07

(I don't know if it's the editor/s or the Zionists, but my post keeps disappearing, and then sometimes re-appearing.)