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Lack of credibility of the libcom.org website?

Kevin Keating | 17.12.2008 21:45 | Other Press | World

If you're in the market to sell a bridge you own in Brooklyn, then skip Ebay; you might find an enthusiastic willing buyer on the UK's libcom.org...

This doc:

 http://libcom.org/library/fare-strike-s ... cisco-2005

Is the only version of a series of events in San Francisco in 2005 that gets linked to on the UK ultra-left/anarchist website libcom.org

That doc, and this doc:

 http://www.infoshop.org/myep/muni_social_strikeout.html

Present two very different and extremely contradictory interpretations of the same series of events.

I explain my version of why this is here:

 http://www.infoshop.org/myep/muni_farestrike.html


Obviously based on the sort of antics that take place on libcom 'forums' there's no love lost between me on the one hand, and the sort of people who spend a significant portion of their lives posting lots and lots of stuff on libcom. And I don't expect people who were geographically distant from the actions being written about here to automatically accept my version of what happened.

But basic honesty and integrity on the part of the people who do libcom.org would mean:

1. either having links to both of the docs -- and then trusting that their readers can judge for themselves,

2. or having links to neither of them.

It's obvious that if the mighty revolutionists of libcom.org don't want to get a reputation for being easily played by any leftist hustler who will tickle them under their chins and tell them whatever they want to hear, then libcom.org should either post links to both versions of this story, or not have links to either one.

Kevin Keating
San Francisco

Kevin Keating
- e-mail: proletaire2003@yahoo.com
- Homepage: http://www.infoshop.org/myep/love_index.html

Comments

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Seriously...

17.12.2008 22:32

Anyone can upload content to the site on registration. If you are so upset then upload the articles yourself.

Clint

Oh, Kevin's at it again...

18.12.2008 00:04

Plus there are several threads up in the libcom forums which he started in which he explains his position. This is typical of Kevin's interminable feuding, if he can't get his own way he throws a wobbly and tries to paint his opponents as compromised, dishonest etc.

RR

he's right though

18.12.2008 03:05

he's right about libcom though isn't he?

Don't think any uk anarchist worth his salt has anything to do with them.

Middle Class And Proud

Right?

18.12.2008 10:25

No he's not right, libcom is one of the best sources of information about anarchism on the internet, regardless of what you think of their forums (a tiny section of the site).

I get sick and tired of the shit-talking which goes on about them on indymedia, it's pathetic given that they don't post back and the main complaint about them is that people get slagged off when they venture on the forums with non-libcomish political views. How is slagging them off here any better?

RR

Libcom's not the bogeyman

18.12.2008 11:39

Whatever you think of Libcom, at least the politics there are generally coherent and well argued. If people there call themselves anarchists they have a good understanding of what that means, and are often members of an organised anarchist group - AF, SolFed, WSM etc. Sometimes people do get a pasting on the forums, but generally it's because at heart their ideas are muddled or just plain wrong. Things did get out of hand sometimes, but that's all been reigned in recently.

The poster above calls him/her self 'middle class and proud'. As class struggle anarchists most people who post on Libcom find the idea of the middle class virtually irrelevant - it's a sociological description, the 'middle class' are still wage earners, and not always privileged ones at that. The idea of being middle class and proud is nonsensical, as is the idea of being working class and proud. We should be trying to abolish classes, not celebrate them.

tigersiskillers

piss off

18.12.2008 12:55

A petty squabble over some internet drama. this certainly seems like a productive use of a radical media resource...

Libcom has set politics and the content on the site reflects those politics. You're not likely to see much from, say, the SWP or the WOMBLES on the site, for the same reason. This isn't some grand conspiracy, nor misdirection. I don't recall anything on libcom saying the versions of events presented there are the *only* version - merely that the content there, for a variety of reasons, is considered useful or interesting by the people involved.

Whatever problems there may or may not be with the forums, Libcom is an amazing resource and one which comes in for a lot of undeserved flak.

anonymous

RR's vapid non-response

18.12.2008 19:18

RR's comments here are typical of the piss-poor excuse for critical thinking that takes place on libcom, and especially on their wretched and embarrasing 'forums.' What I've outlined here is transparently clear. If individuals like RR don't grasp what I'm saying, and can't address the point head on, and in an honest manner, then it may be due to them not having much experience trying to test drive their pleasant sentiments in the the non-virtual reality world. Frankly it appears that both RR and libcom's key point of practical reference isn't anarchism, Marxism, the class struggle, or the historical revolutionary movement, but the worst aspects of internet culture, and all the junior high school boys locker room level of polemics that flourish on internet discusssion boards.

I sent an e-mail, saying essentially the same things that I've posted here, to the libcom administrators several months ago, and never got a response. So now I've posted it here. And it looks like I'm not the only one who has some doubts about the credibility and judgement-making skills of the people at libcom.org. As a matter of fact, my longer article/critique of the transit system fare strike flop was posted briefly on libcom, then it got taken down without explanation. The libcom people probably have a link to the leftist recuperators version of the event because it tells them what they want to believe, because they are easily manipulated, and they are easy to manipulate because they probably don't have much practical experience with anything like what's being described here.

If you don't have first-hand knowledge of some event on the other side of the world from you, and if there are several contending version of what happened, then how can you tell which one is the most accurate and honest one? There's no hidden agenda in a question like that. Even guys like RR should be able to figure that out.

They should post links to all the docs in question here and trust that readers can make up their own minds -- got that? -- trust that the readers can decide for themselves. But that might be beyond the level of critical thinking and practical decision-making that take place at libcom.org at this point.

Kevin Keating in San Francisco

Kevin Keating
mail e-mail: proletaire2003@yahoo.com
- Homepage: http://www.infoshop.org/myep/love_index.html

Thrashing around much Kevin?

19.12.2008 00:52

No answer to the point that you could have put your own stuff up and had already had your say in the forums I note, just more talk about it being everyone else's fault but your own.

Really I couldn't have illustrated your snotty attitude any better if I'd been parodying you. Cheers for that Kevin.

RR

Kevin, you can't expect people to take your stuff seriously

19.12.2008 02:29

The thing is, Kevin's articles about the Fare Strike are all still available at libcom. Just search "Fare Strike" and you'll hit a goldmine of articles that Kevin has written against this event. But the best thing about the threads is that the people who respond to his "critiques" effectively expose his writing as short on facts and long on ad hominem and fabrication to bolster his weird and unsubstantiated assertions.

Moderators at libcom have every right to remove writing that they find to be dishonest and inaccurate.

Kevin's writing is the reason

what is this doing here?

19.12.2008 07:39

what i don't understand is why keating is taking his smear campaign to THIS indymedia site. why doesn't he simply post his ad hominems and attacks to the libcom forums, where the conflict belongs?

if everyone in frisco is a nutter like keating, that is definitely someplace i will never go near. hopefully he will act in kind and never come here.

the strange thing is that he keeps rewriting, and posting everywhere, exactly the same long winded story of the failure of something that happened more than 3 years ago, which is 180 degrees opposite of what everyone else says. even on libcom i've seen at least a dozen accounts in the latter category, including Tom Wetzel from WSA whose various accounts i find the most credible. either keating is totally obsessed with defining and encouraging others to fail, or more likely he is simply mental. Regardless, his campaign doesn't belong here and should be taken up on the libcom forums.

pete

Libcom forum thread : What do you prefer on demos police horses or tear gas?

19.12.2008 16:33

I can't imagine any of these middle class student tossers ever having experienced either but thats the kind if drivel they toss off about!

Aunty Christ

As always, the weenies here cannot offer a persuasive response...

19.12.2008 17:59

The whining here from RR and company is what you'd get with five year olds if you told them that it was time to leave the sandbox and threatened to take away their toy dumptrucks and plastic buckets and shovels.

The points I've made here are plain as day and clear as glass. And here, as it consistently is in the infantile and sometimes quite repulsive 'forums' on libcom, individuals like RR cannot offer an even minimally persuasive and substantial response. They have nothing to say and no words to say it with, and, tough guys that they are, they even have to hide behind fake names while doing it as well. If my opinions were as weak as theirs and my command of language as poor I'd probably be ashamed enough to use a fake name, too. Cut out the Walter-Mitty-fantasies; the state and its security services have no reason to be concerned with you. Anyone can see you are no threat.

Libcom could be a useful and interesting resource for subversive politics, or "anti-politics," in the 21st century; with some significant improvements perhaps it still can be. Unfortunately at this point it exibits the weaknesses of a project whose main practical reference point is internet culture. This means that when a political conflict arises the functionally a-political, grossly naive, or politically inept boys who are drawn to a mostly or exclusively internet-based endeavor will be incapable of engaging with the conflict on political terms.

Yes, functionally a-political dweebs, there is plenty of good reason to critically examine a fiasco like the 2005 San Francisco fare strike. People who have it in them to contribute to a working-class based opposition in contemporary society -- clearly that's not several of the people posting on this thread -- can learn from the mistakes made and incorporate the insights that can be gained in similar efforts in the future.

Put briefly:

1. This effort in SF in 2005 began as something very different from what it decomposed in to;

2. The effort got taken over by conventional leftists,

3. The effort then, predictably, sank like a stone,

4. The conventional leftists in question, one jumb-sized source of bad news in particular, GH, peddaled an outlandish account of what happened with their failure,

5. And in what I refer to here, an ultra-left/anti-authoritarian web site, apparently staffed by gullible and easily played individuals, helped the leftist recuperators peddal their airbrushed photo version of this. This isn't some great defeat in the story of the revolutionary movement; it's not like libcom has any kind of audience among potential combative working people right now. Nobody pays any attention to this stuff right now. But it is a symptom of how ultra-leftists and anarchists repeatedly shoot themselves in the foot.

Right now stuff like this doesn't matter; tomorrow under vastly different circumstances things like this might matter very much. Anyone who wants to make a positive contribution to a liberatory mass social movement in the future is going to have to be a lot smarter and more honest that what's been displayed here.

From the outside, and not knowing any of the libcom crowd -- at least I hope I don't know them, and I don't want to know them now -- a willingness to be played for chumps by stone leftist hustlers is probably a function of the ones getting played having no or next to no actual experience attempting to assert their pleasant sentiments in the larger world around us. The ultra-left milieu isn't exactly a breeding ground for dynamic men of action, or women, either; in the English-speaking world it's an all-male phenomenon and that's only the first of its major failings.

Anyone who has tried to fight for what for lack of a better term I'll call an anti-state communist perspective in contemporary society -- that doesn't appear to include anyone at libcom -- has plenty of experience:

1. facing the challenging task of making an obscure message intelligible and relevant to contemporary working people, who have no reference point that will automatically make anarchist and Marxist ideas relevant to their everyday life experience, and,

2. has some practical experience in having their efforts outmanuevered, lied about and ripped off by hustlers on the left-wing of capital's political apparatus.

That's what happened in that failed effort in 2005, that's what I examined in the two docs refered to above. That's what's at issue here.

RR and company cannot response to what I've written. They do not object to the substance of what I've said; they object to the fact that it is said at all. No wonder the Trotskyists always get over on these punks.

Kevin Keating
mail e-mail: proletaire2003@yahoo.com

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Who's the real hypocrite?

19.12.2008 21:47

Hi Kevin,

I see that you've posted here under 3 names, your own as well as "Middle Class And Proud" and "Aunty Christ"; with the latter being you responding to your OWN post! So much for you decrying those using "fake names." This can be easily confirmed by a moderator showing that all 3 posts came from the same IP address.

Then you claim that the moderators at Libcom.org are all being duped by one fraudulent version of events, while if anyone looks at the "sf-fare-strike-2005" page there ( http://libcom.org/tags/sf-fare-strike-2005) they can see 4 different documents: 3 of which are exclusively by Tom Wetzel, yet his is among 9 accounts in the other pamphlet at the top of the page.

Wetzel's accounts of the fare strike are similar with all the others. Are Wetzel and the anarcho-syndicalists in WSA hoodwinking the moderators at Libcom.org too?




Not Fooled

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Kevin the literary giant

19.12.2008 22:07

Lol Kevin the ability to say nothing in a thousand words does not make you a good writer, and your tendency to throw around crass insults in lieu of decent arguments hardly places you on the high ground.

The fact that you wrote one article several years ago which some people disagree with you about and you're STILL banging on as though it has any real importance outside your own head - despite already having had ample opportunity to put your case - speaks volumes about your atrocious arrogance and total failure to bring any sense of self-perspective to life.

I must have written thousands of articles over the years and I've had more than my fair share of flak from people who didn't like my perspective, but it would be utterly pathetic of me to actively hunt down all the comments and try and smear the people who made them. What would be the point when I could be doing something useful? If I write something, it puts my ideas in the public arena where people are going to be arseholes, that's the nature of the beast. If your skin is so thin that you can't deal with that then you should stop writing.

And yes, well done, you use your real name. What do you want a medal? I've heard this shit about online pseudonyms before and all it shows is that you have very little understanding either of online culture or of the ability of business and state interests to track your activities if you're using your own details. If you feel safe in doing so and want to give information away for free that's your prerogative, but don't act as though it makes you better than anyone else, and don't cry like a little baby when your bad attitude over several years then marks you out for ridicule.

RR

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Response to Sarah Palin

19.12.2008 22:14

The other two posters who Sarah Palin credits me with being here can speak for themselves, and I hope they will.

The point being obscured here by Sarah is that the stuff I wrote about the event in question should not be displayed on the libcom.org website. And why is that, my dear deceitful and inept leftist? Explain in detail what exactly it is that you want concealed or obscured here.

Sarah smells like dopey D.C. of the "Vote Tuesday, March Thursday" guys who are quoted in the leftists doc in question.

Kevin Keating

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fun fun

19.12.2008 23:45

As anyone able to use google can tell, we've got some of Kevin's articles on the site at  http://libcom.org/tags/kevin-keating - and if he spent five minutes posting the muni social strike out article to the library, then it'd be there too.

But then that wouldn't provide an opportunity to send us e-mails complaining about it or posting abuse on indymedia.

catch
- Homepage: http://libcom.org

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Waste of electricity

20.12.2008 01:02

That's what this whole item amounts to.

Stroppyoldgit

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Regarding Catch...

20.12.2008 01:05

My piece about the 2005 Muni fiasco was on libcom.org briefly, it got taken down, and subsequent stuff I tried to post there got taken down as well.

My understanding was that anything and everything from me was "banned," on account of being mean to "Revol68," one of the intestinal parasites who finds a warm and cosy home on libcom.org.

Kevin Keating

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Catch: "...abuse..."

20.12.2008 01:15

Since when is a political criticism of dishonesty or gullibilty "abuse"?!? Jesus, what utter wimps you are!

Postscript

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KK's endless repetition of a debunked position

20.12.2008 03:11

Kevin has been on an embarrassing Ahab like quest against the IDP for years. His clownishly anti-intellectual mantra "Vote Tuesday, March Thursday" has been exposed as a disingenuous distortion probably hundreds of times. Like a Holocaust Denier who is shown forensic evidence that the Diary of Anne Frank is real, he keeps coming back with the same evidence over and over again, indicating he does not ever read anything that has debunked his stance.

See his case crumble here:

 http://libcom.org/forums/thought/answer-rhs-question-about-aspect-2005-fare-strike



If writing is crappy, filled with ad hominem, baseless assertions, and if it smears people as obese, Down syndrome, homosexual, alcoholics, etc. (all intended as insults in his usage) it is abuse. If the charges he makes repeatedly are never backed up with evidence, or corroborated, or made in any way plausible in the face of available evidence, it's shoddy research. If, in the writing itself, the bias and vitriol is so blatantly obvious, especially when combined with the authors' ego tripping and usually off base remarks about people he deals with, it will become widely known that the alleged "research," or his personal views of other people in the strike, is of little or no value.

That is precisely why Kevin's serialized hit pieces on the IDP (they say little about the events of the Fare Strike) have been devalued to the point that if they were published, you would find them at Good Will next to Bill Cosby's _Fatherhood_, old IBM computer manuals, and the stack of _The Bridges of Madison County_. Boyd Rice fans might snap them up to add to their hatelit collections, absinthe bottles, and Cthulu compendiums, to be read aloud in the swirling 78 rpm light of a dream machine and wondered at for their political sounding misanthropy. And that's fine. For some, being an abrasive asshole is the same as engaging in critique.

Uber Wimp from Narnia

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Questions intended as accusational smears?

20.12.2008 03:27

I was thinking about Kevin's fascination with the media, his reporter chasing antics, his failed and recuperated attempts to "get his message out in a big way" on such venues as Fox News and the Bill Maher show. At some point, a person internalizes the spectacle that he wants above all to be a part of to the point where the very language he uses projects it. Kevin's title "Lack of credibility of the libcom.org website?" reads just like one of those headlines you would see on the O'reilly Factor. You know the "Is Obama a Muslim?" or "Did Acorn rig the election?" They're not meant as questions, but as charges to add to a list that will be recalled in association with the subject of the "question." Kevin's whole schtick has engulfed him.
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUYNZA8b9dg
Is Kevin Keating the most recuperated fake communist in California? Story coming up.

Li'l Billy O'Reilly

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'fessin' up to the last two posts

20.12.2008 04:46

My name is Dave Carr, and we did have to tag along behind the Leninist-Stalinist that Kevin mentions in his critique of our attempt to whitewash our failures and irrelevance: "FARE STRIKE! San Francisco 2005: First-Hand Accounts.

Who else would give us our political direction, and write our leaflets for us? You don't think we'd get anything useful from liberalcom.org, do you?!?

The fare strike meant so much to me! I got to play Robin to Gifturd H's Batman. It was way-hella stylin,' dudes. And I'm just so glad that the bog-men at libcom humor us the way they do. But, please, whatever you do, don't read his critique of us. It would be even worse that throwing a bar of soap, a pail of hot water and some free dental work at the comrade bog-men at liberalcom!

Hawaii rocks! Better than London for sure.

Dave Carr

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the solution is obvious, and it has been all along

20.12.2008 05:58

The solution to this little conflict is exactly what I began this thread with. It cannot be more clear. If the individuals at libcom have any backbone, integrity and honesty, and aren't just the juvenile internet weenies whose antics are on nonstop pathetic display in the libcom 'forums', then they should:

1. keep the link they have to the pro-wage labor leftist version of the event,

2. keep the link to Tom Wetzel's version,

3. post the link to my original doc, which they already had briefly,

4. and post a link to my examination of the lies and evasions in the pro wage labor leftist doc.

Now, that was simple, wasn't it?

The big problem on display here, and repeatedly on display with libcom.org, is that these individuals cannot take part in an intelligent, well-worded confrontation of perspectives -- the sort of thing that grown-ups take part in and that grown-ups aim at persuading other grown-ups with.

Oh, and in case I haven't made myself clear; go ahead and continue to ban me from posting stuff on your web site. See if I care. But if you insist on being suckers who let yourselves get played by leftists, then you have only yourselves to blaim for the resulting loss of credibility that results. In that case why don't you go ahead and invite the SWP to post their shit on your site.

Kevin Keating

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Means and ends

20.12.2008 10:11

Once again, Kevin has "gone for the jugular," now writing fake posts for his opponents. This is essentially the same tactic he used in his serialized pieces on the Fare Strike. He sets up strawmen and writes for years about people he doesn't know, events he was not at, and groups he wasn't part of.

He knows his audience and his tactic goes along these lines:

I hate the IDP.
My perceived audience (he assumes he still has one) hates authoritarians, vanguards, and liberals.
I attach those monikers to my opponents, repeatedly, without pause, and over time I will succeed at discrediting them without ever breaching the subject of what actually took place in the event, nor in saying what my own role or participation was in the event.

Look back over IDP rebuttals to Kevin's laughably transparent fantasy versions and you will repeatedly see that we always agreed people should read all versions, IDP, Kevin's, Wetzel's (who also laments Kevin's participation in the Fare Strike), and any they can get their hands on. What I wrote above was that libcom is acting quite rationally to take off the weakest, disingenuous, libel filled hit pieces if they find them to have no historical value. It doesn't mean people can't read them, just that libcom has no interest in them as literature or history.

Kevin gets it wrong when he says libcom should just post SWP stuff (and how disingenuous when his main attempt at a power play involved his attempts to get ins with the Progressive Labor Party section of the SF bus drivers), implying once again that the IDP is somehow equivalent to Leninists. Compare the autonomy of the Fare Strike Social Strike combined effort to Kevin's one man top down Lenin of the Bay vanguardist effort, in which he ridiculed anyone that dared question his authority as head honcho theorist and it is very easy to say who the vanguardist is here. To quote John McCain, it's "that one," the one obsessed with self promotion, tv spots, jargon heavy poster campaigns that exist in a dream bubble totally isolated from any hint of proletarian or community involvement. Kevin's main assessment of the day laborers role in the Fare Strike is to label them as "Down Syndrome sufferers" by repeatedly referring to a march they held 71 days after the Fare Strike began, and stripping all context from the event so he can claim it represents the totality of the effort, and then pin it on the IDP who had no hand at all in planning it.

IDP are not leaders or a vanguard. Kevin Keating is a failed vanguard of one.

To read about the Fare Strike/Social Strike, see the Wetzel and IDP accounts (each has very different views). To read a funny hit piece on the IDP, with frustrated and angry distortions and character assassinations, read Kevin Keating's serialized cartoon version in which he, and he alone emerges as a superman--if only people had the intelligence to see the genius they were shunning.

 http://farestrike.org/
 http://www.infoshop.org/myep/love_index.html
 http://www.munifarestrike.net/
 http://libcom.org/tags/tom-wetzel
 http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://socialstrike.net

Name withheld to avoid association with psychopath

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Nutters on the internet

20.12.2008 11:42

Kevin Keating is a complete nutter, he got banned from libcom from posting streams of abuse, smears and lies on their forums. Then he reregistered several times pretending to be different people, all agreeing with himself. They all got banned as well, and after all this came to light one of his articles which was on the site before which the editors didn't realise were full of smears got deleted - which is fair enough. Get over it.

Striker

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Then it's settled...

21.12.2008 03:17

The apparent author of "FARE STRIKE! San Francisco 2005: First-Hand Accounts" -- GH, writing under the heading "means and ends" on this thread -- has made it crystasl clear here:

1. That he has no objection to the libcom kiddies posting a link to my review of "FARE STRIKE! etc.

2. So, now the mighty enemies of capitalism at libcom.org can go ahead and post the review of the left-wing of capital guy's version of events. LET YOUR READERS DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES...

You'll find the link above in my original post.

Of course, an ability to think critically and simple honesty would have prompted that a while ago, but we can't expect too much from a bunch of guys who still live with their parents and engage in their version of "revolutionary struggle" solely in cyberspace. A guy like "striker" probably needs his mom to help him put his pants on in the morning, so more than that is figuratively and literally far beyond his reach.


Kevin Keating
mail e-mail: proletaire2003@yahoo.com

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Kevin: an enormous waste of time and energy

21.12.2008 10:17

I think what is particularly angering about this sort of thing is that good comrades end up having to waste their time debunking pathetic obsessives like Kevin when he spreads around his steaming piles of 'criticism' rather than doing something more productive. It's bad enough to have to deal with the right's divisive tactics let alone egos-gone-wild on the (supposed) libertarian left.

RR

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Response from a Libcom editor

21.12.2008 14:51

Hello,

I'm Steven., one of the editors of libcom.org. I originally posted up Kevin's account of the fare strike on our site, because it looked like decent information on an interesting struggle.

It later became apparent, as should be clear from his posts here, that his article was not an accurate account of the events and was more him airing his bizarre personal vendettas against various individuals. Using a combination of lies, smears and insults.

With our website we want to spread information about struggles of working people, so that others hear about them, and so that we can learn from our past, and not make the same mistakes again. Having falsified and slanderous documents on it is counter-productive to this, so it was removed.

As other people have linked to, there were several discussions on our forums where Kevin was able to give his side of the story. People can read those, and read his account of events which is hosted in many other places on the Internet, and linked to from our forums (see links below). People can then make up their own minds.

However, it is not helping Kevin's argument when he continues his tactics of smears and abuse here.

Firstly the somewhat bizarre allegations that the editors of Libcom all live with our parents. In fact, we are all fortunate enough to be in employment which means we can rent somewhere. However, a lot of workers aren't so lucky. An increasing number of people are being forced to remain at home with their parents after they are 18 due to falling real wages, and a huge rise in the cost of living.

Therefore even if this were true, it would not be a fair statement to use as an insult - similar to Kevin's use of things such as Down's syndrome and homosexuality to attack people.

Then the allegation that our participation in "revolutionary struggle" occurs "solely in cyberspace". Firstly, Kevin has no idea who any of us are in real life, and so he would have no way of knowing whether this were true or not.

Secondly, all of us are involved where we can be in organising with co-workers to address problems which affect us all. Myself and another of the editors were on strike for two days a couple of months ago alongside half a million other local government workers against below inflation pay rise.

I just helped get one of my co-workers who was sacked (and so at risk of deportation from the UK) reinstated after delivering a 94% vote in favour of strike action if this were not done. This was in my department, which was previously unorganised and had never balloted for industrial action before. Discussions and news of these are all on our site.

I could level very true criticisms of Kevin that he has never been involved in a workers dispute as significant as the ones we have been involved in. But again this would not be a valid criticism, and as I have some integrity I will not be making invalid criticism.

The level of involvement people can have in struggle is dependent on external conditions - basically the level of struggle going on around them. We are fortunate to live in the UK, which in general has a high level of workers organisation and militancy than the US. So criticising someone for not having that historical and social advantage would be unfair.

I hope Kevin can accept that we host what we decide will be useful to host on our website. If he has a website I'm sure he does the same. I also hope he can direct his fervour in a more productive direction and engaging in obsessive online vendettas with people he has never met. This will also mean that we won't have to waste our time responding to them. Time which at the moment we could use to better report on the ongoing rebellion in Greece:
 http://libcom.org/tags/greece-unrest (or finishing my long overdue Christmas shopping...)

That some other people on indymedia with grudges have used Kevin's attack on us to try to score some sort of abstract points against us is also unfortunate, but luckily we don't lose any sleep about what a minority of anarchists think about us.

For reference, our coverage of the San Francisco fare strike is here:
 http://libcom.org/tags/sf-fare-strike-2005

Kevin had the opportunity to get his views across on our forums here:
 http://libcom.org/forums/thought/once-more-failed-transit-system-fare-strike-san-francisco-2005
 http://libcom.org/forums/history/three-stooges-account-failed-effort-foment-transit-system-fare-strike-san-francisco-2005

There were some other bits of discussion elsewhere, but those were the main ones.

In solidarity,
Steven.

Steven.
- Homepage: http://libcom.org

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If you can't assasinate Blair

22.12.2008 06:44

>.You're not likely to see much from, say, the SWP or the WOMBLES on the site, for the same reason.
LibCom admins (John) publish verbatim Socialist Worker reports here [ http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/liverpool/2007/09/380102.html] praising the Prison Officers union, soon after claiming to have had no link to the SWP.

They have taken over Scotland Indymedia and turned it into an adjunct of LibCom Scotland. The people who have beenposting there a mixture of saps who bought into the 'wrapped in the black flag' posture of a number of SWP "former activists". They are police leaks and utter scum.

fuck Libcom

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fuck accuracy

22.12.2008 07:53

of course none of the libcom admins are involved in IMC scotland, and our politics are very far from the SWP as is clear to anyone who actually visits the site rather than taking the word of some anonymous internet anarchist with a chip on their shoulder. but don't let facts get in the way of a good bit of slander eh?

Joseph K.
- Homepage: http://www.libcom.org

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Middle class LibCom Swappies

22.12.2008 08:53

>of course none of the libcom admins are involved in IMC scotland, and our politics are very far from the SWP as is clear to anyone who actually visits the site rather than taking the word of some anonymous internet anarchist with a chip on their shoulder. but don't let facts get in the way of a good bit of slander eh?

Steven, if you decry anonimity then please post your full name and address here or else be known as a hypocritical meat-puppet. Eh?


IMScotland regularly defend LibCom and I have prrof they are police informers. Do not post there incriminating actions and do not cotcat those traitors.

John, the anonymous yet admitted LibCom admin, posted that link to the SWP pro-prison officers strike there ( and here  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/10/384291.html?c=on ).

Welshboy Andy, an anonymous Libcommer, had me banned from from LibCom for accidentally referring to him as his Indymedia pseudonym WelshBoy on Libcom. He could have just asked me to ammend my post there but he is mainpulator and a liar. He betrayed my very first action eight years ago. He helped sabotage a scottish anarchist.

WelshgitLibCom also accused me of a blood feud against LibCom, which was ridiculous because the next LibCommer I met, "Ginger", I let free into an anarchist gig.

Revol likes to joke about rape on Libcom and no Libcommers took offence, which explains a lot about their true attitudess to feminism - a tactics rather than an ideal.

Even Ginger had previously been identified as her true name by another police informer, Phill Jones, and yet no action had been taken against him for "revealing" her identity her. In truth, she is the upper class hypocrite whose daddy bought her a pony called Copper who sometimes masquerades here as a poor Glaswegian nurse unable to afford a washing machine. You support rape Alice ? You do, but I wouldn't rape you.

What really happend is that the SWP always had lot's of folk pretending to be anarchists, but those that were allowed to join the SSP jumped ship when it sank. So now they are all pretending to be anarchists while sabotaging any real anachist movements. They have sunk IM Scotland. They have sunk ABC Scotland.

They have beaten up children and sexaullly abuse children. They have grassed out genuine anarchists for many years. And now they are going to pay.

Danny

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Well said Danny! For years and years these tossers have tried to destroy

22.12.2008 09:39

Well said Danny! For years and years these tossers have tried to destroy whats left of the British anarchist movement continually spreading bullshit about groups in order to but failing to fragment them. Fucking middle class pricks playing at politics until Daddy gets them a job....

@narchist

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A question for the Solidarity Federation

22.12.2008 10:43

libcom.org is a resource for all people who wish to fight to improve their lives, their communities and their working conditions. There are 3 members of Solfed in the libcom.org group. The Solfed forum on the site has just 69 topics with just 916 posts

The question is: does Solfed find libcom a useful tool in organising itself as a group, if so why doesn't it use libcom more?

If Solfed has no confidence is using libcom why should anybody else be encourgaed to use it?

D.

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Danny

22.12.2008 10:47

I wrote that - I'm Joseph K. not Steven. I'm not going to post up my full name and address for several reasons, like that I've previously been dragged into court for having such a lax attitude, discussing organising at work (as I do on libcom) is made considerably more risky when a simple google would find it, and of course your macho internet posturing ("they are going to pay").

Of course the irony of accusing people of being touts while asking for names and addresses won't be lost on those IMC readers with critical faculties. As for the rest of your post, I have literally no idea what you're talking about.

Joseph K.
- Homepage: http://www.libcom.org

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that's odd

22.12.2008 12:11

Does anyone else think it's weird that when libcom stands up to Keating and explains why they took his crap writing off the site, all of a sudden there's a rash of outraged posters engaging in ad-hominem attacks with suspect sounding "British lingo"?

seems weird is all

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Things take a turn to the bizarre

22.12.2008 12:16

A note to readers:

"Fuck Libcom", "Danny" and "@narchist" are all the same person. Regular indymedia readers will be aware of Danny and his personal issues.

For anyone who is not all his posts are complete fabricated nonsense - most of us have never even been to Scotland, let alone have ever had anything to do with indymedia, IMC Scotland, the SWP, the SSP or any of his other delusions.

Steven.
- Homepage: http://Http://libcom.org

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Actually Steven or is it John or is it Mike I am not Danny you silly boy!

22.12.2008 12:44

Actually Steven or is it John or is it Mike I am not Danny you silly boy, And Danny is not me...

I have years of experience dealing with the Libcomics , the pathetic spoilt freaks that they are. Ask any anarchist with a ounce of integrity and they will tell you what a destructive clique they are...

@narchist

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Para

22.12.2008 13:09

I don't know anyone else who is posting on this thread but I do know by name the LibCommers in Scotland. They have done nothing of worth, they try to take over any anarchist group and anyone who posts there deserves a wee punch to the head at best.

Swappies, middle-class fakes and police informers.

Danny

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Libcom: The Knights of Middle England

22.12.2008 14:36

The libcom phenomenon found its expression for 2 distinct reasons.

Firstly the libcom group are all relatively young, they have never known a tory government, as such never experienced class politics as a living embodiment of peoples experiences (miners strike, wapping, poll tax). They are the children of new labour (literally in Jack's case).

This is why Class War's rhetoric [which has long since played itself out] confuses them. Class politics for the libcom generation is a simple formulation examined through the lense of economic circumstance, a position, a pose, an intellectual extension of their study course. It's not their 'fault'. Just as being middle class is not their 'fault'.

Secondly libcom couldn't exist anywhere but the internet. For example, nobody at Steven's work (a london borough council), knows about his involvement in the website, or if they do he certainly doesn't promote or encourage its use within his workplace. Libcom remains a personal private project. As a resource it functions primarily as a social networking tool.

For the last 5 years anarchism has been just a useful discussion.

As for those involved in the libcom group it's almost certain they will grow out of their 'radical' phase and take government positions, jobs in the civil service, their parents companies, family firms etc and renounce anarchism in a suitably corrosive manner.

It's no big deal, no big loss.

Butcherspursestrings

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Personal issues

22.12.2008 14:38

"Regular indymedia readers will be aware of Danny and his personal issues."

For any non-regular readers, my "personal issues" are the fact that Indymedia posts have been used to incriminate me anonymously to the police over the past two years. And the fact that the subsequent police raids on on my parents house ( searching for bombs I was about to launch an arson campaign against my local Labour Party, or that they were housing absconded prisoners) ended up in my parents being hospitalised. I can prove that these allegations.

Maybe another of my personal issues is the fact that an indymedia scotland admin (LibCom) was dumped by his fiance for touching up her kid. And when I reported that to another LibCom mouthpiece there was legal action taken against the victims and no action taken against the paedo. Maybe my personal issue is to do with your colleague who admitted on Indymedia to beating up a teenage girl half his age. That's okay though, eh, cos she was just working class scum who deserved a good beating?

So that has identified me Steven, how about you put your own name to your smears? You said you don't like anonimity - or do you?

Danny

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Danny

22.12.2008 16:29

those are pretty serious charges mate.

If half of what you say it true this has an impact on the uk anarchist movement as a whole and not just your personal circumstance.

If you write a comprehensive account of the issues involved and send it to the various anarchist groups that potentially have some involvement - solidarity federation (3 existing libcom members, 1 ex-member) anarchist federation (1 existing libcom member, 2 ex-members). We know 2 members of the libcom group were involved in antifa so they should be informed. Indymedia scotland, obviously.

However unfortunate your situation is, as i say, this concerns the anarchist movement as a whole and i think there needs to be an open and aceessible examination of what is going on.

UK Anarchist

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Serious Charges

22.12.2008 17:36

As most people here know, most activist belong to more than one group. So blaming all my problems on one daft website is indeed disingenious. Plus I don't respect "joiners".

However I haven't found a single group willing to take my allegations - and proof- seriously, and if you wish to question me or request proof then just stick an email address here and I will furnish details.

I am already at the stage of offering the police my complaints, through lack of any other option. I doubt Indymedia would allow me to name names, they have surpressed this in the past, but if you are serious then feel free to act as judge and jury in this matter. I'd prefer a face-to-face meeting before you make a decision, and I'd prefer there was someone I respect present.

I have a political contempt for SWP but I know many of the openly SWP members are perfectly okay, this isn't a political vendettta on my part.

Danny

Delusions

22.12.2008 20:05

Danny, you claim that you and your alter egos are in fact separate people, but but it seems strange that you always post within a few minutes of each other. And you are both making the exact same deluded claims, none of which has ever made by anyone else before.

And all your statements are complete and utter lies.

Trying to be fair to you, maybe you do know of some events like these which happened somewhere - but whatever none of them have anything to do with us.

As we are very open about one our site, 10 people are members of the Libcom group. These are myself, catch, Joseph, zobag, rkn, Ed, pingtiao, jimmer, Gav and Jack.

All of us live in London or Brighton, none of us know anyone involved at any level with indymedia Scotland or have anything to do with anyone involved in indymedia Scotland, or any other indymedia.

Two of us have been engaged, and they are both now married. There have never been any allegations of any kind - other than the ones you are making on this page now. None of us have heard anything about this before today.

You've never spoken to any of us ("mouthpiece") about any of this, and none of us have ever been involved in any legal action - apart from against the police following the Fairford coaches incident. None of us have ever had anything to do with an assault on a teenage girl, and that certainly hasn't ever been "admitted to" on indymedia. Most of us never even look indymedia because of the type of preposterous bullshit and smears - like these - which unfortunately infest it.

"UK anarchist", yes these are "very serious" charges. But they are completely fabricated by a deluded mind that has never even mentioned any of this before today. These are particularly serious - and preposterous - because many of us, myself included, working in child protection.

We have also worked at exposing those within the anarchist movement who propagate support for child abuse - such as Hakim Bey/Peter Lamborn Wilson, and some editors of anarchopedia (links included below).

I would request that you to be a decent human being and retract these allegations - either because they are completely fabricated, or because you have confused us with other people.

I would also request of indymedia to preserve any respectability as an information source that they delete all posts related to these disgusting and ridiculous allegations.

If you are still claiming the any of these allegations are true - name which of the 10 of us you are accusing.

Links:
 http://libcom.org/library/leaving-out-ugly-part-hakim-bey
 http://libcom.org/forums/libcommunity/anarchopedia-expanding-needs-expand-more-06122007

Steven.
- Homepage: http://Http://libcom.org

This is all suspect

22.12.2008 20:13

Seems like the UK is importing one of the worst practices of the US in the 60s and 70s: state sponsored snitchjacketing by provocateurs.

Don't trust anyone coming onto public websites making unsubstantiated accusations, especially of pedophilia, child abuse or other extremely inflammatory "crimes."

COINTELPRO, KevINTELPRO, or DannyINTELPRO are ALL the same; don't trust anyone posting these divisive provocations.

Beware of snitches

Delusions

23.12.2008 02:13

Danny, you claim that you and your alter egos are in fact separate people, but but it seems strange that you always post within a few minutes of each other. And you are both making the exact same deluded claims, none of which has ever made by anyone else before.

And all your statements are complete and utter lies.

Trying to be fair to you, maybe you do know of some events like these which happened somewhere - but whatever none of them have anything to do with us.

As we are very open about one our site, 10 people are members of the Libcom group. These are myself, catch, Joseph, zobag, rkn, Ed, pingtiao, jimmer, Gav and Jack.

All of us live in London or Brighton, none of us know anyone involved at any level with indymedia Scotland or have anything to do with anyone involved in indymedia Scotland, or any other indymedia.

Two of us have been engaged, and they are both now married. There have never been any allegations of any kind - other than the ones you are making on this page now. None of us have heard anything about this before today.

You've never spoken to any of us ("mouthpiece") about any of this, and none of us have ever been involved in any legal action - apart from against the police following the Fairford coaches incident. None of us have ever had anything to do with an assault on a teenage girl, and that certainly hasn't ever been "admitted to" on indymedia. Most of us never even look indymedia because of the type of preposterous bullshit and smears - like these - which unfortunately infest it.

"UK anarchist", yes these are "very serious" charges. But they are completely fabricated by a deluded mind that has never even mentioned any of this before today. These are particularly serious - and preposterous - because many of us, myself included, working in child protection.

We have also worked at exposing those within the anarchist movement who propagate support for child abuse - such as Hakim Bey/Peter Lamborn Wilson, and some editors of anarchopedia (links included below).

I would request that you to be a decent human being and retract these allegations - either because they are completely fabricated, or because you have confused us with other people.

I would also request of indymedia to preserve any respectability as an information source that they delete all posts related to these disgusting and ridiculous allegations.

If you are still claiming the any of these allegations are true - name which of the 10 of us you are accusing.

Links:
 http://libcom.org/library/leaving-out-ugly-part-hakim-bey
 http://libcom.org/forums/libcommunity/anarchopedia-expanding-needs-expand-more-06122007

Steven.
- Homepage: http://Http://libcom.org

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