The BNP are not NAZIs FFS!
anarchist | 22.11.2008 10:11
The BNP attract bigots, closet and open racists, nut-jobs and thick sun-reading twats - they however are NOT Nazis. By calling the BNP Nazis like the UAF do pushes people further towards them and alienates those that sympathise with some policies of the BNP with more anti-nationalist, class politics.
So what are the BNP?
The BNP have foundations from the far-right, fascists and hitler supporters - this is a fact. Look at the histories of the leadership of the BNP, their political alliances across Europe and North-America - this cannot be disputed.
Hang on didn't you say the BNP were NOT Nazi?
Yes, there are over 10,000 members with a strong working class vote in areas traditional strong with left and far-left memberships. Those that have joined and voted for the BNP have come from that background. The reason is that New Labour has abandoned any pretence in actually acting on the concerns and interests of large swathes of working class people, whilst utitlising a long term strategy of multi-cultural, divisive funding strategies where individual "communities" based on religion and ethinicity compete for funding. When funds and social services are denied and cut in working class areas, there is resentment when other pots are used to fund specific "communities". This had led the BNP to reform it self with a "common-sense" attitude derived from their old "rights for whites" campaign. The sentiment is this "if blacks, asians and muslims can act as for their religious or racial interests then why can't white people".
Having spoken to many members of the BNP this is one of the statements that I hear more often and it is linked to the opportunistic, loony left generation that instead of promoting a general working class integrations - something the state is against for obvious reasons - they have instead promoted a divisive "cultural, racial and ethnic classification" that has an interest in non-integration. There is the counter argument to suggest that the multitude of organisations set-up during the last 30 years to provide a balance to the inequalities and racism experienced at work, in the community and institutional were needed, and they were - but in many cases what we need now is general working class, open community initiatives, self-managed AS WELL as a campaign against a preferential treatment to any "community" thru facilities. Facilities for all is a pro-working class anarchist position as opposed to facilities for x and y group - which the BNP want.
To finish off my thoughts, the State want a divided working class that can not recognise its own power. The BNP want a segregated working class, and is using issues around multi-culturalism, lost of manufacturing base, financial crisis, immigration - to build a social base that it has NO INTEREST in actually serving.
Anyone observing the BNP "white history" month( whilst supporting the efforts of black people in black history month - this further shows they want to act as any other racially based organisation!) - the history on show was about Kings and Queens! Where was the working class history!
Any thoughts welcomed
The BNP have foundations from the far-right, fascists and hitler supporters - this is a fact. Look at the histories of the leadership of the BNP, their political alliances across Europe and North-America - this cannot be disputed.
Hang on didn't you say the BNP were NOT Nazi?
Yes, there are over 10,000 members with a strong working class vote in areas traditional strong with left and far-left memberships. Those that have joined and voted for the BNP have come from that background. The reason is that New Labour has abandoned any pretence in actually acting on the concerns and interests of large swathes of working class people, whilst utitlising a long term strategy of multi-cultural, divisive funding strategies where individual "communities" based on religion and ethinicity compete for funding. When funds and social services are denied and cut in working class areas, there is resentment when other pots are used to fund specific "communities". This had led the BNP to reform it self with a "common-sense" attitude derived from their old "rights for whites" campaign. The sentiment is this "if blacks, asians and muslims can act as for their religious or racial interests then why can't white people".
Having spoken to many members of the BNP this is one of the statements that I hear more often and it is linked to the opportunistic, loony left generation that instead of promoting a general working class integrations - something the state is against for obvious reasons - they have instead promoted a divisive "cultural, racial and ethnic classification" that has an interest in non-integration. There is the counter argument to suggest that the multitude of organisations set-up during the last 30 years to provide a balance to the inequalities and racism experienced at work, in the community and institutional were needed, and they were - but in many cases what we need now is general working class, open community initiatives, self-managed AS WELL as a campaign against a preferential treatment to any "community" thru facilities. Facilities for all is a pro-working class anarchist position as opposed to facilities for x and y group - which the BNP want.
To finish off my thoughts, the State want a divided working class that can not recognise its own power. The BNP want a segregated working class, and is using issues around multi-culturalism, lost of manufacturing base, financial crisis, immigration - to build a social base that it has NO INTEREST in actually serving.
Anyone observing the BNP "white history" month( whilst supporting the efforts of black people in black history month - this further shows they want to act as any other racially based organisation!) - the history on show was about Kings and Queens! Where was the working class history!
Any thoughts welcomed
anarchist
Comments
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not nazis....
22.11.2008 11:15
Nationalist socialists, hmmm heard that one before...
nn
not nazis....
22.11.2008 11:16
Nationalist socialists, hmmm heard that one before...
nn
NSDAP had plenty hoodwinked with the same BS arguments
22.11.2008 11:45
Yes alot of the "diversity" PC shite does come from fascist BNPers & fascists in black community, why are you using corporate terminology about loony left?"Loony left"are into fair wages, nationalisation, fought nazis from spain to Berlin.
PS seems you have been also sold lie that BNP is mostly old labour, its support & base comes from old tory in fact,right wing royalists, theres even a open Lord Murray on the list. Majority of there voters too are old tory in latest analysis, some areas are more old labour, both are sad.
Working,middle class its all a load of shit, a nazi is a nazi, they had plenty of hoodwinked, ready conditioned moaners in lots of beer halls in Germany too. Maybe if they try to massacre activists first like they did back then you will cheer on any servile SSmembers from the working class whilst mumbling about the loony left like a bitter tory.
Anne key
NSDAP had plenty hoodwinked with the same BS arguments
22.11.2008 11:47
Yes alot of the "diversity" PC shite does come from fascist BNPers & fascists in black community, why are you using corporate terminology about loony left?"Loony left"are into fair wages, nationalisation, fought nazis from spain to Berlin.
PS seems you have been also sold lie that BNP is mostly old labour, its support & base comes from old tory in fact,right wing royalists, theres even a open Lord Murray on the list. Majority of there voters too are old tory in latest analysis, some areas are more old labour, both are sad.
Working,middle class its all a load of shit, a nazi is a nazi, they had plenty of hoodwinked, ready conditioned moaners in lots of beer halls in Germany too. Maybe if they try to massacre activists first like they did back then you will cheer on any servile SSmembers from the working class whilst mumbling about the loony left like a bitter tory.
Anne key
a fascist is not a Nazi
22.11.2008 12:18
But they are not Nazis, as they're not in the Germany of the 30s/40s. The term Nazi is specific to the time and place and the NSDAP - to use it in other places over-simplifies and muddies the water instead of analysing what's going on, then acting on it. It's the same when people say someone's a Nazi/fascist when they want you to clean up after yourself, or be on time, or whatever - don't misuse the terms as it removes the strength of both terms and the depth of what they lead to.
someone with a memory
OED QED, BNP = Nazi
22.11.2008 12:48
NAZI • noun (pl. Nazis)
1 historical a member of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party.
2 derogatory a person with extreme racist or authoritarian views.
Clearly noone who refers to the BNP as Nazis are claiming that Griffen and Co are time-travellers from 1930's Germany. In a way, the Germans who joined the Nazi party in 1930 are far less culpable than the people who join the BNP party today because back then fascism was new and it wasn't obvious to everyone where it would lead. The current BNP have the benefit of historical hindsight to guide them.
I think you also may have missed the significance of the email address
BR
Collete,many of Griffins Bodygaurds,C18 etc are literal nazis
22.11.2008 13:16
We need to be accurate, we dont need to undermine the word by calling right wingers nazis or fascists. The term Nazi is derived from the first two syllables of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, [16] the official German language name of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party (commonly known in English as the Nazi Party). It has come to universally be used to describe fascists of any country, especially those with "socialist" tendencies like BNPers.
Many payed for crimes but many top nazis got away after WW2 including Dr Menegele, Griffin still calls Mein Kampf a good read, local BNP members near me when drunk start seig heiling in the pub, people near the Red White & Blue report nazi drinking songs.
Yes they are not the NSDAP of Germany, but they are nazis-fascists not just rightwingers. Some of us know afew idiots who have maybe been conned or are filled with enough hate, this gives them a face we know, disconcerting isnt it. I have family members who came from Austria-Germany & it tore the country apart. Many Austrians-Germans etc came to Britian & joined the RAF, during the war they bombed the land they grew up in repeatedly, it shouldnt happen anywhere.
In 2006 Wales on Sunday emerged that two of Griffin's pet pigs, kept at his farm near Welshpool, had been christened Anne and Frank, hopefully that jogs your memory. Jeez we are far better than them, the movement we are in has done so much to help social causes, the environment & i know hundreds of activists who regularly risk their lives& jobs. What we need to do is not be afraid to organise people, anarchists need membership organisations, anarchism is about direct universal democracy,its not about bombing, we should be vvproud to be at the forefront of true democracy& the struggle for a civilised world.
Anne key
How sad this story has stayed up on IMC,maybe IMC should make up
22.11.2008 13:28
Nazis have always had excuses & BS, we shouldnt even give them the luxury of calling them a protest vote, they are a hate vote, a ignorant hate vote. Many of their members are just too dumb& twisted to listen to a decent debate which we would win, though we need to start having them in BNP areas & see what happens. This would require some security, but it would expose them, show we arent afraid & help expose them for what they are.
Anne Key
Why did this story stay up on IMC UK,someone on IMC should
22.11.2008 14:02
Niceone BR yes many BNP members still glorify auschwitz which does make them more culpable than people who joined the NAZI parties when they were first spawned out of the hate of world war 1.
Nazis have always had excuses & BS, we shouldnt even give them the luxury of calling them a protest vote, they are a hate vote, a ignorant hate vote. Many of their members are just too dumb∨ twisted to listen to a decent debate which we would win, though we need to start having them in BNP areas to stop potential voters. This would require some security, but it would expose them, show we arent afraid & help expose them for what they are, I for one am up for doing this in Brinsley post code area near me which seems to have the about the most BNP per post code according to the excellent website below.
Anne Key
bnpnearme.co.uk is missing some people?
22.11.2008 14:32
antifash
CORRECT
22.11.2008 15:05
Just the ones in charge of it !
Braxz
Lancaster UAF
22.11.2008 15:24
You wouldn't want to be accused of being a bunch of hypocrites, would you ?
But, then again, I suppose Ketlan Ossowski has already got 'form' for this type of activity hasn't he, as witnessed in his vile publication of ordinary members of the public's car registration details - an act which Lycos deemed to be in breach of US anti-terror legislation and which led to his hate-filled animal rights (sic) web site being shut down.
However, fortunately, there is an archive of this site here, complete with car registration details :
Working Class Lad
BNP banner on tv - what did it say?
22.11.2008 15:27
observer
Redwatch is a nazi deathlist wish thats the difference,oxymoronic banner said
22.11.2008 15:56
Weird isnt it that at anti Iraq war BNP have supporters in army of the sort from what other soldiers say that revel in killing in dirty"rag heads".
Anne key
My Post
22.11.2008 16:14
Again my point is that to think Antifascism is about calling the BNP "Nazi" is a misunderstanding of the appeal and growth of such parties. The questions that need to be answered are serious, and I trust many in the anarchist/socialist movement are discussing the impact the BNP are having - to the point that we may see both Dagenham and Stoke have BNP councils, supported and voted in by working class people - what are we going to do call them all "NAZI"!
anarchist
Strategic mistake to cede patriotism
22.11.2008 16:47
There will be BNP members who buy the pseudo-patriotic, pseudo-nationalist clap-trap that they use to cover their racism. I think an effective tactic of education for them would be to get some officer of the Royal Norfolks to email you their opinion of the patriotism of a party who has totenkopf88 on their membership list, so we could forward that opinion to all the soldiers and all the Norfolk residents on the list. They might be shamed seeing how unpatriotic the BNP really are especially if explained by a soldier.
It was the fascists who blitzed London and Coventry who successors they are now voting for. English fascists were traitors in World War Two and they are traitors today.
The Financial Times is reporting that a Spectator columnist is also on the list, but it doesn't identify them. Any ideas who it is ? The Spectator carries a gleeful account of the leak so it would be good to point out any hypocracy on their part.
PatrioticAntiFascist
there are far better stories that have been taken off IMC due to
22.11.2008 17:58
As BR states nazi in the dictionary is another word for fascist, if stoke on trent do vote in a full nazi council+ a BNP MP then stoke on trent would deserve to be called nazi thats a fact.
No one is saying we should send in the dam busters, if they took over the entire country that would be different, but lets not let either scenario happen, people arent taking the BNP seriously enough.
If I lived in Stoke or Dagenham I would be seriously ashamed, the BNP is a vote for hate not for protest or anything else, theres plenty of alternatives from independents,greens to community & cooperative action. Before the euro elections all antifascists & anarchists should do all we can to support these organisations in places like Barking & Dagenham. Why not start getting involved in green party politics or parliamentary reform for direct democracy, anarchists from Bakunin to Bookchin have called for parliamentary systems just on a much fairer basis with ecomomic & social equality as well as international revolution& workers councils, read revolutionary catechism or about communitarianism& organise.
anne key
I tend to...
22.11.2008 23:28
Z
The BNP is a blatantly neo nazi party,members are either fascists or mega niave
23.11.2008 01:26
Nazism is obvious straighrt away for its dictatorship, its the be all & end all, whereas at least Marxists have the excuse that they are aiming for a more democratic society. I
Hitlers BNP membership leaked,hilarious!!
BPP,BNP child pornographer& armed terrorist
BNPs founders in uniform
theres another link from these to this collet encouraging the use of Redwatch as a hitlist. Unless your
Anne Key
...
23.11.2008 08:32
The BNP are obviously a party fundamentally based on racialist and nationalists views with a increasing dimension of being community based and appealing to working class, socialist values. The IWCA (independent working class association) and other antifascists recognized this a decade ago, and attempted to develop a class response to the BNP realignment.
Not to focus on semantics. The reason I say this is not to undermine the threat of the BNP but to make analysis on EXACTLY what it is and why sections of working class people are drawn to them for the purpose that it poses a massive risk to an reestablishment of working class power and self-activity.
anarchist
the BNP are a NAZI party
23.11.2008 11:06
anarchist, your intellectual nit-picking is out of touch with working class feeling. As has been said before, no one seriously considers that the BNP are time travellers from the 1930's, but Nazi they surely are.
How do you get your head around this :
THE BNP WAS FOUNDED BY A NAZI, John Tyndal - who wore nazi uniforms and called himself a nazi - so we have every right to call them a Nazi party.
Try to explain how a party that was FOUNDED BY A NAZI, whose 'security' people have swastika tattoos, that spent many years trying to deny the holocaust - is not a Nazi party!
get real
THEY ARE NAZI's and fascists.
BNP are a NAZI party
...
23.11.2008 11:24
As I have said before, the BNPhas been founded by the likes of Tyndal - a British Nazi Supporter, they have Nazi within their ranks - HOWEVER - and this is the last fucking time I am going to post on this article - their membership are drawn from an opinion that the BNP are not NAZI but in some way are representing their voices - which do not all stem from a hatred of all non-white people.
Look, if you want to defeat fascism and the growth of reactionary opinions spouted by Labour then you have to LOOK AT THE UNDERLINING ISSUES AND PRESENT A CLASS RESPONSE TO IT. All we get with UAF is a sucking up to Labour/Liberal and Tories!! Vote anyone apart from the BNP, yeah that'll do it - why don't we get all those pissed off working class people who are dillusioned from mainstream political parties because they don't work in the interests of working class people to - wait for it - vote for the mainstream political parties. If that doesn't push people further into the arms of the BNP I don't what will.
And lets get this straight, I much prefer having anti-immigrant, even racists closer to left-wing and militant anarchists (where they can be shown why they are out of order) than with a bunch of career racists and nazis in the higher echoelons of the BNP.
anarchist
the BNP are a NAZI party
23.11.2008 11:53
Just because going to Romford and shouting the word 'NAZI' is not a good idea, does not prove that the BNP are not a nazi party.
It is stating the obvious to say that they are a NAZI party and a fascist party
BNP are a NAZI party
Deep Thought
23.11.2008 12:09
Whatever populist policies the BNP wrap themselves in will never disguise the basic, inescapable fact that they are a Nazi party. Your argument seems to be that not everyone who joins a Nazi party is a Nazi, but joining a Nazi party makes you a Nazi.
You say the IWCA have been discussing this for ten years "and attempted to develop a class response to the BNP". And - no response yet ? Please come back in 2018 to update me on how that discussion is progressing.
Vroomfondel
what does a labour member make you then?
23.11.2008 12:47
anarchist
"anarchist" BNP are a nazi party ffs,please stop putting words in our mouths
23.11.2008 13:19
By voting BNP they are supporting the worst part of the corporate system ffs, stop making excuses for them& say how it is!!
In euro elections lets make a effort & support the green party, independents many of whom are radical & far bigger in areas like stoke than the BNP, in fact why not organise the radical greens & independents with radical cooperative& liberal party people who want direct democracy. Anarchism is not about not voting, that is one the biggest lies ever, we have the right to vote tactically to whoever gives us a better chance of getting freedom or maintaining whatever little freedom we have.
Voting for nazi corporate MOFOs or dictators is never an option, if it gets that bad nationally either move or call in the international brigades, I'd happily fight side by side with Churchill to stop Hitler sponsored by IG Farben exxon-mobil or Stalin& their little Molotov pacts. We can stop that from happening, by making excuses for BNPers you make it worse.
anne key
Spectator journo = Michael Tanner?
23.11.2008 14:06
I've no idea if they are one and the same person, though. It's a fairly common name.
They are marked as "Activist", so I suspect they are different people. Maybe the FT assumed they were the same person?
anony
Most of New Labour party is servile to capitalism, it wasnt started by fascists
23.11.2008 16:23
Whilst I dont agree with their tactics the labour party actually fought for some good things for many years, theres still people in there fighting for that who come on antiwar & anti deportation demo's at risk to their own careers. It'd take almost a miracle to get the labour party to impliment true direct democracy, but there are parts of the labour party like the cooperative movement who are consistently antifascist, its not a dictatorship.
The BNP started of as a pure nazi party & looking at its email list & private recorded comments of its leadership it definetely still is., it always had & still has a dictator.
Anne Key
BNP Spectator columnist is David Lovibond
23.11.2008 16:23
"Boris Johnson didn't want BNP support in the London mayoral election and says he won't participate in a St George's Day celebration because it would mean sharing a platform with the BNP's London Assembly member. Embarrassing, then, that the Spectator, with Bojo as editor, ran articles by David Lovibond, who has cropped up on the BNP membership list."
More embarrassing for the Spectator who just published this:
"Adrian Monck tries not to succumb to Schadenfreude:
The British National Party once posted my email address on their website. I got 400 emails of varying degrees of unpleasantness - my favourite being the one that described me as a “nigger-loving Jew.” Yes, it takes a lot of imagination to work racism against black people and anti-semitism into one easy epithet.
Now the BNP says it isn’t a racist, thuggish party, but I’m certainly glad they didn’t know where I lived. And I’m very glad I now know where they live. But here’s my challenge - who’ll be first to mash up the data and produce a map of the membership? You ought to be able to do it without revealing personal details."
Here is an example of the Spectator being the mouthpiece for the BNP:
David Lovibond on why he is angry with the multiculturalists, who make colour, not culture, the measure of all things
More useful than a map, the FT article which first mentioned the Spectator columnist had a breakdown by percentage of the population to indicate the worst affected areas.
http:// www.ft.com/bnplist does show in only two areas, Halifax and Blackburn, does does membership hot 0.05% of the population.
"The list includes 16 serving and more than 50 former soldiers, five civil servants, 15 teachers, several church ministers and a Spectator columnist. There are four former Labour councillors and 11 former Tory councillors among the names. "
paf
picture of David Lovibond - journalist on Flickr
23.11.2008 17:53
I assume it must be the same person.
antifash
Mayor invents immigration policy to cover BNP link
24.11.2008 11:34
21st - Boris Johnston announced a potential amnesty for immigrants in London.
22nd - Indymedia is asked if anyone can identify the columnist
23rd- The Observer names Lovibund stating it will embarrass Boris to have published BNP articles as editor of the Spectator
24th- Rightwing newspapers attack the proposed amnesty and fail to mention Lovibund
Does anyone else suspect that the supposed FT asked Boris to comment, so he knew he was linked directly to the BNP, and that the proposed amnesty for immigrants was simply media spin to distract and make himself look pro-immigrant ?
paf
to paf: nice theory, but a little too "conspiracy theory"
25.11.2008 01:06
I like your theory, but I think the links are a little too tenuous and conspiracy theoryesque.
I doubt most people give a shit that Boris once published articles from a BNP member. He most likely didn't realise he was a BNP member anyway. It's also possible that being a journalist, Lovibund only joined for research purposes, although he does seem very right wing.
anon
London Mayor published BNP propaganda
25.11.2008 11:53
The chronological link is obvious. The day after a former employee is exposed as a racist then the mayor proposes an overtly anti-racist policy totally out of the blue and politically out of character. I think linking those two facts as more than coincidence is sensible. I am not claiming any sort of conspiracy, I am claiming BoJo is a rather nasty politician who is well-versed in spin. My claim is more 'Yes, Minister' than 911. The alternative, that Boris just suddenly had a change of heart on immigration on the day he was going to be asked awkward questions about a direct link to the BNP, that seems less credible to me.
-I doubt most people give a shit that Boris once published articles from a BNP member.
The Observer claimed Johnston would be embarrassed by having employed and published a BNP columnist in the Spectator, and I fully agree. It would ruin his carefully projected image of a lovable buffoon and reveal his true character.
-He most likely didn't realise he was a BNP member anyway.
Then he was an extremely incompetent editor given the right-wing guff that Lovibund was writing.
-It's also possible that being a journalist, Lovibund only joined for research purposes, although he does seem very right wing.
I think that is a more tenuous and incredible suggestion than any I have stated, especially since Lovibond hasn't claimed this himself.
One way to prove the theory is to put in a FOI request to find out exactly when Johnston instructed officials to begin looking at ways to pardon immigrants and then compare that to when he was first told about Lovibond by the FT. An easier way is just to wait. If I am right then he will drop the proposed policy before any resources are spent on it - probably next month when the media caravan has moved on to some other story.
paf
Lovibond, undercover antifascist ?
25.11.2008 12:04
Lovibond has hardly been maintaining a low-profile in his support of the BNP. This is typical of the letters he writes to newspapers.
The BNP is typically portrayed as an opportunist party seeking to take advantage of people's fears. This is much like saying the suffragettes were taking opportunist advantage of the failure to enfranchise women....The BNP is a response to extraordinarily rapid and profound change in this country (and to England in particular). In the past it has said many unpleasant things and attracted unpleasant people to it. This is no longer the case - as this excellent article makes plain.
As the BNP has grown it has welcomed ex-Tories and ex-Lib. Dems as well as ex-Labour supporters - which in turn has permitted the development of a much more sophisticated response to the problems this country faces. Some BNP members have views which would have been regarded as belonging to the centre-left of the Tory party of Lady Thatcher's day but which have been abandoned by Mr Cameron. The BNP has embraced change not out of opportunity but out of duty - to coin a phrase 'there is no alternative'.
david Lovibond, devizes, england
paf
How To Unwittingly Provide Fertile Ground For The BNP
26.11.2008 15:56
It is certainly the case that the growth of identity politics is dividing the working class. But there are a lot of vested interests here. How many well-paid jobs depend upon the continued existence of separate ethnic groups who then need organisations with paid staff to promote their supposed unique interests? It is not in their interest to have a united working class.
In both these cases we have people who appear to be promoting the interests of ethnic minorities. I am sure they think they are. In fact they are providing fertile ground for the BNP.
Jack Ashton
"A friend of mine..."
26.11.2008 17:21
Your post is openly racist, whether by accident or design. You conflate immigrants with ethnicity and religion. These are two different things. Most immigrants to the UK are white Poles. Most black and Muslims in Britain are Britons, born and bred British.
paf
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