what is targeting individuals who support the bnp to achieve?

open question | 21.11.2008 16:27 | Anti-racism | Culture | Repression

by personal experience, whenever i've been oppressed i think it has strengthened my resistance, and it has usually been an automatic reaction to futher the divide between my self and the 'oppressor' (i'm not saying that is right or wrong).

what is targeting individuals who support the bnp going to achieve? (i'm not saying everyone who has read the list wants to intimidate or instill fear) i think many tactics (violent/threatening or similar) could result in supporters deepening their views, rather than coming round to a different viewpoint.

obviously having said this, i should put forward some alternatives, but debate/conversation is the only one i have come up with. any other ideas? for humans is there only talk or force?

also does anyone have any examples of such tactics resulting positively in the long term?
(in other words made the 'problem' disappear)

open question

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futhermore

21.11.2008 16:47

you could argue that many people turn to the bnp through fear anyway (for example scapegoating immigrants which they believe take all 'our' jobs and resources)

what is additional fear to achieve? because i cant see how it would change their viewpoint on the basic opinion that immigrants worsen things for those who 'deserve' it.

open question

Wrong

21.11.2008 16:50

They all know what the BNP is, it's not like it's a big secret that they're racist, fascist scumbags. They should have known what they were getting into before joining and now it's too late boo fucking hoo. I say it's time to pay.

Redskin

pacifism !

21.11.2008 17:01

The BNP are pacifist, they will not retaliate, and look what that policy has just got them. !!!!
ROFLMAO

Braz

BNP

21.11.2008 17:10

The core foundations of the BNP have been created by fascists and nazi-sympathizers - they were the ones active in the 80's and 90's when the BNP WERE part of a fascist threat in the UK. They have now transformed themselves into a nationalist organisation with some socialist and anti-capitalists view, they have also tapped into the disillusion with Labour and the Trade Union movement that have moved more into supporting big business and the middle classes than their traditional social basis. That is why the BNP are bigger now than at any time in their history. If they were a purely fascist party and just fascists joined them then they won't be as big as they are now - simple as.

So what is our response?

Firstly, we shouldn't use the liberal/labour regime to oust them as that causes more problems in undermining BNP support - this is the reason most people have joined the BNP anyway.

Secondly, there has to be an offensive of offering alternative organisations to the BNP that connects with people - can the anarchist or socialists in the UK do this? So far they haven't, that needs to change.

Thirdly, as the BNP does stand for racial segretation, repatriation, homophobia and plan reactionary ideas there must be attempts to make those that aren't racist in the BNP to fully understand the nature of the party - its roots, its objectives and the danger that such a party poses to working class self-interests if it does gain any power.

any thoughts on this?

anarchist

Fascists are weak-willed cowards.

21.11.2008 17:18

"does anyone have any examples of such tactics resulting positively in the long term?"

Yes, countless examples drawn from 25 years of direct involvement in anti-fascism. Experience shows what works and what doesn't. To compare the likely behaviour of fascists facing retribution to the oppressed is laughable - you'll be calling them an 'oppressed minority' yet. Fascists are weak-willed cowards.

Jack

Targetting the fascists

21.11.2008 18:07

Sheffield NF 1978 - One well-targetted action closed them down. 'Nuff said.

Antifascist

TIME FOR ACTION

21.11.2008 19:00

is time to show them that we dont like them , we dont want to like them and we never will like them ...so after so many years of talk talk talk ..time is here .....is they give us fear we give them even more fear ....the list is open choose , act and enjoy ......dead fascists now your time as come .........peace love and petrol bombs @NTI NAZI ACTION

DEAD FASCISTS NOW

Maybe the surveillance society is inevitable

21.11.2008 19:09

One school of thought is that modern technology makes the surveillance society inevitable, so we should just accept that and learn to live with it. We will all end up knowing everyone else's business, just like it used to be in small villages many years ago (and today).

A main problem is whether the information flow is symmetrical, or whether it is one way. The government and police have databases of information on us, so maybe it is inevitable that eventually we will have databases on them too.

If nothing else, the BNP membership leak has taught us all a lot about privacy and how fragile it is. The leak was from the BNP today, but it could equally well be any of us tomorrow.

Imagine if the membership lists of an AIDS or HIV support group were leaked, or a group for gay men who hadn't come out. Or a database of people's DNA, showing what diseases they might be susceptible to. That could cause serious problems for people, who may have good reason for their privacy, because of discrimination by society.

Most of us got a kick of schadenfreude out of seeing racist scum like the BNP being exposed, but there are bigger questions underlying this. Maybe this will be the start of a flood of memberships lists being released.

On Facebook, people are happily building up databases on themselves, their beliefs and their associates. Being anonymous is becoming more and more difficult.

anon

Cutting debate and beheadings

21.11.2008 20:04

>debate/conversation is the only one i have come up with. any other ideas?
>for humans is there only talk or force?
>also does anyone have any examples of such tactics resulting positively in the long term?

Last time I talked to one of the activists on the list they had a knife at my throat, and five armed friends. They are drug dealers who hold the local estate, and especially any non-white, to ransom under threat of execution. The debate we had ranged from whether I'd prefer being knifed, drowning or falling off a bridge. In the interests of open debate I intend to ask the same question of them now I know how to contact them.

Tolerance of the BNP is tolerance of race crime. Pacifism in the face of fascism is societal suicide. We are entering an economic depression like the one that brought Hitler to power. It was irresponsible not to act against fascism in 1929 and any inaction now is repeating an awful history.

"The White Rose (German: die Weiße Rose) was a non-violent resistance group in Nazi Germany, consisting of a number of students from the University of Munich and their philosophy professor. The group became known for an anonymous leaflet campaign, lasting from June 1942 until February 1943, that called for active opposition to German dictator Adolf Hitler's regime. The six core members of the group were arrested by the Gestapo, convicted and executed by beheading in 1943."

BlackRose

How are they targeted?

21.11.2008 20:59

The BNP would like to be targeted violently. They will probably even do it themselves and blame it on the antifascists.

To discuss "targetting" their membership invites prosecution for a number of crimes. It invites the censorship of the medium through which the "threats" are made.

The whole leaking plays to the BNP's policy of creating a fearful society. By including people on the list who are only slightly commited alongside convicted criminals and racists, the tactic creates divisions from which they intend to emerge stronger.

How can a sane society express their revulsion of these people? Maybe point out that they are terrified already?

Anon

Radio Leeds

22.11.2008 00:34

Today at 12:30 am I was disgusted to turn the channel on my car radio and hear the BNP being ontact BBC Radio Leeds and explain their distaste at allowing the radio waves to be hijacked and given a platform on the radio. The question by Liz Green went on, How would you react if you found out your friend was in the BNP?
What took place was 2 hours of BNP supporters being allowed to spout their lies on open radio. Paul Cromie and Tony White were among the scum allowed to spew their filth. While Cromie gave off the element of being nothing more than a concerned citizen helping his constituency, White spouted on about war between the left wing and right wing saying how the BNP C18 and NF had nothing to do with each other.
White was given the longest air time as he babbled on about the left wing firebombing cars and putting up details on the internet of BNP activists being taken as a red rag to a bull calling for all out war. And advocated violence being met with violence.
It was a disgusting platform for these vile NAZI scum to spout off their rhetoric and have an open forum.
People should contact BBC Radio Leeds and explain their distaste at allowing the radio waves to be hijacked

Disgusted

It's simple divide and rule

22.11.2008 00:38

The Baby P case breaks raising fears that the murder of a blond haired blue-eyed British Child at the hands of an agency of the British State might be enough to get the left and right to put aside their differences and call for serious action. All of a sudden a BNP membership list gets leaked and everybodies back at each others throats.

Sov

Already forever divided

22.11.2008 13:16

The thought that this is a state attempt at 'divide and rule' to 'get the left and right to put aside their differences' is bizarre.

The 'left', to a person, had no truck with the BNP even at the start of the Iraq war where millions of childrens lives were at stake. There is never any need or justification in dealing with fascists regardless of the fascists stance on current affairs. There should be no issue that has you considering of building bridges with them, it won't help your cause and it will damage your society.

While the leak could have been a state operation, the simplest solution is most likely. Dissident BNP had a legal injunction slapped on them ages back to stop them making use of the list which they'd kept.

The Simple Solution

22.11.2008 15:35

The simple solution is that the current BNP leadership leaked a "2007" membership list to incriminate the dissenting BNP activists and stir up trouble for everybody. Not just the left. Not just active antifascists. Everybody. If nothing else, the election of Obama has shown these fossils how antiquated their politics are. Yet people are still being attracted to them. Why is that? Why are people making the mistake of supporting a party that contains members who would have the vast majority of the population hanged, gassed, beheaded or imprisoned?

Anon