keep at it.........
love and solidarity from new zealand

keep at it.........
love and solidarity from new zealand

..try to cover up all traces of even having tried.

"Overall though I definitely think it was well worth it!"

Worth what for f****s sake?! It succeeded in changing absolutely nothing. It was a complete waste of time. I absolutely despair at how the anti-vivisection 'movement' has degenerated into the joke it has become today. How the vivisectors and their drug industry-paymasters must be laughing at your antics!

In fact, I am starting to wonder whether the rise of this so-called militant animal rights movement isn't just another tentacle of the vivisection industry purposely formed to infiltrate the more excitable elements of the animal rights movement - just as the BUAV and co have long been infiltrated in order to keep the more sedate members of said 'movement' inactive by deliberately engaging them in useless camapigns against cosmetic testing etc.

Anything to keep people away from talking about the scientific nulility of vivisection.

At the risk of boring myself to death, as well as regulars here, I will repeat it once more: vivisection exists because most people believe that it helps to save human lives. They will always put their moral feelings towards animals at the back of their mind and see animals endure the torments of hell so long as that elusive promise of a cure for cancer is dangled in front of their noses.

Here's a clue: on the front page of national paper yesterday was the headline 'Once and for all flu jab - UK trials begin on super vaccine to protect against all strains with a lifetime injection'. On page 7 was a full page article entitled 'Herbal hazards that could threaten the unborn child'.

Despite the fact that the flu jab has recently been proven to save no-one, and pharmaceuticals kill tens of thousands annually, and herbal remedies kill nobody at all, newspapers continue to circulate this crap. THIS IS WHY VIVISECTION EXISTS!!

Rather than plodding through the rain soaked streets of Ledbury, and no doubt alienating the vast proportion of the public in the process, you would have advanced the AV movement much more by spending a day leafleting the public as to the criminal actions of the drugs industry, the millions of human deaths and injures brought about by the products of the vivisection laboratory, and the murder of millions of animals used as a scapegoat when drug industry poisons kill and injure people, although admitedly this would have been much less exciting.

HLS shows no sign of closing, the Oxford lab camapaign has been a total failure, and vivisection continues into the 21st century unabated; all failures due to campaigners' refusing to think for themselves and not doing what has to be done

What is desperately needed is a full frontal front attack on vivisection using the intellect; to educate the whole nation that vivisection exists ONLY to make money for a pharmaceutical industry that is happy to march across a mountain of corpses - both human and animal - in its obscene search for more profits. Only when enough people have been woken up from the slumber they are currently happy to exist within will vivisection ever stand a chance of being finished off; regretably to say this including the vast majority of current campaigners.

Is there anyone who is able to understand this and has the guts to break away from the current herd-like mentality that will see vivisection continue until the end of time?


Regards,

I agree that education is needed and in my opinion demos are supposed to educate people - how many of them found the truth about labs from leaflets and thanks to demos?
With a few protestors we can't expect nothing more...
But waiting until people become educated on vivisection issue can take ages. Education is great anyway but is not a solution. However I see that there is more and more people aware of vivisection but less and less activists nowadays.

Why vivisection exists? - Because people agree because people don't care
I'm devastated after yesterday - not only because the all activists who didn't come but also because the people from Ledbury - simply: I STILL CAN"T UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE ARE SO CRUEL STUPID IGNORANTS
And I think that most of people are too much stupid to educate them - to change anything we need ban on animal experiments and in meantime to burn down all labs.
People are like puppets - can't deal with what is right or not without written rules...

Shame on you

Steve, I totally understand what you're saying. However I would like to make a few comments:

First of all, I think a lot of people are frustrated with the movement at the moment, as to the best way forward. Every single person I speak to says so and a few of us are wondering which is the best way to proceed.

I think one of the main problems is that, being mostly an intelligent bunch of people, we are still coming from two different angles. Angle 1 seems to be to keep the public on side by being approachable. Angle 2 appears to be to cause a bit of disruption. Political movements in the past have achieved what they want through angle two but I must admit that sometimes I think we all look like a bunch of nutters on demo's and we alientate the public.

We all know that vivisection WILL end, and it's just a matter of time, but we are divided on how to achieve it.

If taking to the streets and causing a bit of civil disobedience didn't work then like others have posted on here, women wouldn't have the right to vote etc. I firmly agree with you that the vast majority of the public don't care too much about animals if they think their loved ones will find a cure through animal testing and we all know THAT lie promoted by the pro viv lobby is their main ammunition.

I personally think we need a big meeting as to the best way forward. We all want the same thing, but we are confused as to how to achieve it. If we can all agree, then we can unite and be a stronger group. If not, then maybe we CAN have two angles. Two groups of campaigners working from their own angles to achieve the same end. I would love to attend a meeting with speakers coming from the different angles, so I can get a better understanding of how to move forward.

Thanks VD for your comment about Ledbury people. If you really want to get Ledbury people on side then you are going a funny way about it.
I agree totally with Steve, things need to change. The last two protests in have done nothing to change the minds of the Ledbury people. They are not stupid if you take the time to talk to them and tell them why vivisection won't save there loved ones they might actually listen.
But after insulting them I wouldn't blame them if they didn't want to listen or change there views.

for intelligent being it is not need to explain anything you are all mad
killing and tortures in the name of what???

I agree that making demos at such places like Ledbury have no sense that's why the labs are situated there if we want to gain public attention demos should be held in big cities but first of all there should be a lot of people at demos

and I agree with SG that we need a meeting - if we want to achieve something we need to work together not in small groups

It’s a shame there was low numbers and sorry I couldn’t make it. I didn’t have enough money much as I wanted to go to this event.

That ruined our chances of going, as it did for quite a few others I imagine. Big shame...

Looked like good fun though, better than the usual A-B death march!

Until next time...and until all are free!

SG, I realise that the movement is currently in a state of turmoil. I have been involved with this for many years, and it is currently at its lowest ebb ever, and I realise that with this comes frustration. With respect I don't think the answer lies in more 'big meetings'. The answer lies in each individual taking the time to honestly ask him/her self whether the current tactics are achieving very much, and I think if we are honest the answer has to be nno. People must think for themselves.

You mentioned civil disobedience as having acheived votes for women, and indeed this and other social reforms have been furthered by this sort of action. However, remember that there is one big difference: in the past the victims themselves have been able to voice their opinions. With vivisection it is only concerned people who can do something about it, and whilst I would not decry protests on the streets, they have to be done in a manner likely to gather support rather than alienate the movement, otherwise the whole thing is pointless, eg yesterday in Ledbury.

If you want protests then how about one protesting the waste of public money spent on useless vivisection whilst hospital beds close, or the vast waste of money by fraudulent self-perpetuating cancer charities whilst effective natural cancer cures are ignored, or that a true, genuine health care system than truly benefits people is being sacrificed for the benefit of the criminal drugs industry, or how our environment is being destryoyed by herbicides, pesticides, etc through fraudulent methods of testing (ie animal testing).

Now, with protests like these we MIGHT just start to see public opinion being swayed in our direction, with ordinary people joining our ranks in bigger numbers, demanding the end of vivisection regardless of their moral views about animals, and which can only be a good thing.

True, these tactics are in a way pandering to a self-centred public, and I realise many campaigners don't like doing this. However, now is the time to put behind us what makes us feel good and to start doing what has to be done to end vivisection, and in this I openly admit that I believe that the 'animal rights' philosophy will never be able to end vivisection in a society that has become less humane, and not more. Some will argue that we need to change this mentality, but how long should we wait, when the scientific arguments against vivisection could, I believe, end vivisection in a few short years if such a campaign were undertaken in earnest. Your must also realise that we are opposing what is probably the most powerful industry in the world, other than the arms industry: the pharmaceutical industry, for which animal scapegoats are essential for the marketing of its toxins. This is why current tactics can never work.

Read about the history of the movement, and in this the CIVIS Bulletins and Foundation Reports on our web site has lots of info. Read about the infiltrations and the lost dreams of a generation. There's lots of other info there too, plus videos, and the entire '1000 Doctors Against Vivisection' book to download. Read 'Slaughter of the Innocent' and 'Naked Empress'.

I really live in hope that the AV movement can mature, grow up, and will have the courage to implement a hard-hitting campaign against the death-dealing vivisection industry and its pharmaceutical industry paymasters. It is long overdue.

Regards, and good luck.

"Looked like good fun though" seems to just about sum it all up really.

In reference to Steve's posts (see the link):

I like a good good conspiracy theory as much as the next person, but Hans Ruesch was a paranoid conspiracy theorist lunatic. Anyone who remotely disagreed with his tactics in any tiny way (i.e. pretty much all other anti-vivisectionists) were branded as infiltrators in league with drug companies.

My own slightly tongue in cheek conspiracy theory is that Hans Ruesch was himself a drug company infiltrator, put there to make us look like nutcases, and to divide the movement with infighting and negativity like the post above.

Personally I think attacking vivisection on moral grounds is the best tactic, purely because this isn't a single issue we are fighting. Vivisection is miniscule compared to the meat industry. I would rather someone go vegan than oppose vivisection, and they won't do that if they are only opposed to vivisection for selfish reasons. Once enough people are vegan or vegetarian, the tiny side-issue of animal abuse that is vivisection will die off naturally, since not many people will want it any more. In the meantime, attacking it financially has had great effect at moving it abroad and in making it a less enticing career choice for the next generation.

Anyway, every one of the "scientific anti-vivisectionists" I have ever met have actually been pro-animal rights and actually motivated by the moral argument. They only pretend that the human health issue is important to them. Whenever I talk to members of the public, virtually all of those opposed to vivisection do so because they think it is cruel.

It sounds to me like the Ledbury demo was a great success, despite the frustrations cause by the heavy-handed policing. No doubt many who attended will be encouraged to take out their frustrations in some other ways, since the legal channels are not allowed any more. And it exposed the beautiful irony of the police jailing someone for being an organiser and then having the audacity to expect someone to put themselves forward as the organiser of this demo!

Cheers to the future!

Next time Hereford Police won't have such an easy time containing activists under the bridge. As for other anti-vivisection events, this video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX_4FE5KoWs) is a good example of what to expect, plan and prepare for.

As was mentioned above, all that is needed is a bit more tactical coordination, like nectu have got! Loose your march mentality and start confronting the police state in the way that we as "free" individuals should be. Fight the repression, or you'll be next!

Onwards and upwards!
Fight for your right to protest!

Auntie Viv

You are of course entitled to your opinions, but I wonder whether it was him being a 'paranoid conspiracy theorist lunatic' that gained his inclusion in Stuart Hirschberg and Terry Hirschberg's book, Past and Present, Ideas That Changed the World, appearing alongside Keats, Shaw, Orwell, Herodotus, Carlyle, Darwin, Hoyle, Plato, Sartre, Aristotle, Ruskin and Flaubert, amongst others?

Or maybe it is simply that he shattered your fondest dream that animal rights would ever end vivisection? People hate to be awoken from their dream.

Regardless, I challenge you or anyone of a like mind to make a date - my diary is at the ready - and we will meet back here in twelve months to see if the 'movement' has progressed one iota - progression here being judged perhaps by one area of research being banned, vivisection being questioned seriously by the media, the number of animals used lessened significantly, or even HLS closing or the Oxford lab not opening, etc, rather than you and your buddies having had a few good days out 'having fun'.

How Glaxo, Wellcome, Pfizer, and all the rest must be quaking in their boots after yesterday!

Any takers?

Regards,

The reason why the demo failed was because the organisers were in it for their ego not for the animals. Most of the people who turned up were there for the animals and you could see that however some of the organisers were just in it for ego.

Ill thought out rubbish, those 60 people could have saved far more lives going round the local shoots or turning up to just one fox hunt.

Steve:

The trouble with trying to assess the efficacy of any given tactic is that we are playing the long term game here, and cause and effect are never obvious. Ultimately each of us has to go with what we feel best doing, and what our gut feeling tells us.

I could equally ask you whether what you did yesterday had Big Pharma quaking in its boots? Maybe you wrote some articles that caused some people to rethink their views on vivisection. Maybe the protest yesterday caused some people to rethink a career in vivisection, or a multinational to rethink relocating to the UK. We will never know for sure.

I like to think that a good metric for how well a tactic is doing is how much state repression it gets. If they are locking up peaceful legal protesters like Sean for 4 years, they demonstrators must be doing something right.

I have read some of Hans Ruesch's books, and they are good for quotes or examples, but the scientific anti-vivisection movement has always felt a little bit cultish to me - the hero worship of Ruesch and the instant dismissal of anyone disagreeing with the party line as "an infiltrator".

Personally I think the layperson doesn't really care about the scientific argument - they just think it is cruel and that clever scientists can do their experiments some other way - and the scientific community is set in its ways and views people like Ruesch as outsiders, cranks and pseudoscientists. Scientists may claim to be objective, but I think a lot of their established behaviour is based around illogicality and argument by authority. It's plainly obvious to them that the so-called scientific anti-vivisectionists are really wolves in sheep's clothing and are really doing it for moral reasons. Why does Ruesch mention animal suffering in his books if the primary concern is human health? I think that vague feeling of deception and hidden agendas makes people uneasy. Why not just be honest about the moral arguments and use scientific ones as an added bonus?

Established doctors like Jerry Vlasak speaking out are great since they have the perceived authority, but Ruesch wasn't a medical doctor so he will always be seen as suspect by the establishment. If I were you I would sweep Ruesch under the carpet - he's dead now so his ego doesn't need massaging any more. Then get some genuine doctors and scientists to be the spokespersons and figureheads. Although they will have to be pretty well established already or their careers will suffer or even be destroyed. This is where a generation of vegan scientists and doctors coming through the ranks can have an effect.

Keep chipping away by all means, but I think to change an established order through logic you need to do it from within. And I think it will take a long time - several generations - because most old scientists aren't going to change their ways. The other way - physical confrontation and direct protection of animals - can be done from outside and has the potential to be quicker.

Both roads have their part to play and it will probably be impossible to know which one has the most effect, either before or after any changes happen.

Sabby,

I am glad that you went out and saved some animals directly. Good for you. I can't understand how a genuine animal rights person would come on here (what is turning into a public debate for all to see) and accuse people of being on yesterdays demo for their own egos. The anti-vivisection movement needs as many people on board (in which ever way you choose) at the moment as we all know that the opposition are fighting us tooth and nail. Yesterday as far as I can see, was a trial run and I think more demos without organisers is the way to go in the face of such appalling political repression. The way this happens remains to be seen but it's obvious to me that a lot of people are thinking ahead and getting their heads together to see how we can help animals locked in labs and that is why we were there yesterday. Not for egos. I would never say to you that I think you didn't support the political repression of legally campaigning activists yesterday because you wanted to go out and save some animals directly. Like I say, good for you. However, if you are a genuine animal rights person, you will add your comments in a polite manner and be pleased that the movement is trying to think ahead and not come on here and call activists egotists.

This was a human rights demo yesterday as much as an animal rights one. So actually, we were also fighting for sabs to have the right to go out and campaign/act to save animals.

Sean was locked up for running a legally campaigning website. If that sort of thing is allowed to continue, then it could be you or one of your friends next if we don't make a stand and demand that we be allowed to campaign for our beliefs.

Sabby, you are thinking way too short term. The effectiveness of an action isn't measured by the number of animals you physically save on that day. The animal rights struggle will take generations, and will never be fully realised, we will just get closer and closer. You have to assess the longterm strategic impact.

And being such a whinging negative nellie in a publicly visible forum - read by filth and by vivisectors - isn't a very good strategic move.

...fucking dismiss it if you weren't there to support it. A lot more could well have been achieved if more people had turned out. Yeah, it was GREAT fun getting soaked and pushed around by the police, not to mention spending cash to get there. You also assume that people who got off their arses yesterday to go to Ledbury don't also give out leaflets, take direct action and liberate animals.

Every protest outside Sequani can only be a good thing. Maintaining a presence and keeping up the pressure drives Sequani's need to keep paying out for security measures, gives them a bad name (and thereby, may deter potential suppliers), requires the authorities to organise large and expensive policing operations (each time showing the government that the use of animals in experiments is not a cheap option) and so on.

I think many were there yesterday to try and shake up Sequani, rather than to focus on outreach, and to some degree it probably did that. Some people did try to give out leaflets, though I'm not sure if the two objectives really work well together.

Oh and get real about the way forward being to convince people that vivisection is uneccessary. Most people really don't give a damn, and forcing corporations/the govt into abandoning animal testing is the only chance they have...

>>>
"I really live in hope that the AV movement can mature, grow up and will have the courage to implement a hard-hitting campaign against the death-dealing vivisection industry and its pharmaceutical industry paymasters. It is long overdue."
>>>

This was what people talked about throughout the 1990s, then you know what? Activists did start hard-hitting campaigns against the vivisection industry. Douzens of breeders were closed and we moved onto placing HLS into millions of debt, with no bank or insurance. If that's not a hard-hitting campaign, then what is  http://directaction.info all about?

You say that HLS shows no sign of closing, whilst swiftly ignoring top financial experts who note that it's not if HLS closes, but when. Are you claiming to also be a top financial specialist who assesses debt records of corporations? Didn't think so.

>>>
"Regardless, I challenge you or anyone of a like mind to make a date - my diary is at the ready"
>>>

You know what? I challenge you for one day to stop whining year after year on indymedia about how you want somebody else to organise "the right way", just so you and your friends can feel comfortable and worthy of participation.

Here's a radical idea, DO IT YOURSELF. I'm sick and tired of listening to you and others talk about how activists 'should' be organising, instead of organising for yourselves like every other individual and campaign on the planet has done so. Take some fucking responsibility for a change; stop asking for organisers to change and start organising for yourselves. You're not an exception to how grassroots activism works, there are no exceptions. You must start organising instead of preaching about organisation. It's getting REALLY boring.

>>>
"People hate to be awoken from their dream."
>>>

Exactly. People don't realise they have to BE the change they want to see, not just advocate the change they want to see. I call it pipe-dream-fever; it's words without actions.

Unless of course you know that if you organised anything, nobody would be inspired to join because YOUR campaign alienates the movement by spitting on every AV campaign that you don't have control over. It makes me think you've given it a go organising, failed, then resulted to condemning every other form of AV activism, hoping that people will support you.

It's a miracle you have any support left at all from campaigners by the way you bring your points across, seriously. The bottom line is - there is no issue. You can organise, just like more militant campaigns. People know that militancy works, so deal with it and stop whining.

The answer to your problem (nobody elses) is to work harder at activism, stop wasting time condemning everyone elses efforts and encourage your own methods through actions instead of empty arguments and insults. The movement is not going into turmoil, you'll find it's just your campaign, and for me personally I think its bloody obvious. You used to gain the majority of public support from SHAC/SPEAK/Stop Sequani activists holding stalls, then you decided to slag off all the groups, so they stopped supporting you back. Isn't it obvious? It is to me. Does this explain why less people are ordering your leaflets/donating? Of course.

As I said before; stop whining and start acting. Activists will support your campaign and its tactics if they work. That's the only way it worked in the past. People acted, people noticed what tactics were successful/not, making more people join and took action. Its called a social movement, you seem to think the AV movement is some sort of trophy activists are all fighting over. The only battle I see is your campaign against all others, no vice versa.

Well said Ex-Supporter. Couldn't have put it better.

Steve, you say:

"I challenge you or anyone of a like mind to make a date - my diary is at the ready - and we will meet back here in twelve months to see if the 'movement' has progressed one iota - progression here being judged perhaps by one area of research being banned, vivisection being questioned seriously by the media, the number of animals used lessened significantly, or even HLS closing or the Oxford lab not opening, etc, rather than you and your buddies having had a few good days out 'having fun'."

Are you not thinking a bit weirdly? If nothing, by your reckoning, has been achieved, why is it the "fault" of people like the Sequani protestors? Why isn't it YOUR fault? What has your group/organisation achieved? If nothing, then shouldn't YOU be rethinking your tactics? I too am bored by your whinging drivel and can only assume that your agenda is not ending vivisection but hero worshipping. Not interested. Sorry. If you really want to hammer home the scientific case against vivisection, then the well researched and referenced "Sacred Cows and Golden Geese" by the Greeks is far superior to the anecdotal case made by Reusch (in my humble opinion).

To all those who are downhearted by recent events, all I can say is that we are achieving good stuff still: just think, until the farcical Sequani trial, nobody much had heard of the place. I'd never seen more than a dozen protestors there. Now there's been a decent sized demo for the second time in less than a year. Which do you think that Sequani would prefer? Anonymity or being a cause celebre? What sort of contingency planning do you think that they had to do prior to Saturday? What did all that cost them?

And if you are looking for positive and effective action, hammer away at Barclays at an easy high street location near you! A few leaflets and a couple of people and you're away.

"It's plainly obvious to them that the so-called scientific anti-vivisectionists are really wolves in sheep's clothing and are really doing it for moral reasons." So what if that is the case, so long as the scientific arguments are taken to the vast majority who DO care as to whether vivisection is useful or not? Remember that Ruesch NEVER said that one should never use the moral arguments, but to use them EXCLUSIVELY was collective suicide.

Anyway, I see no one took me up on the bet. So here's to another decade - perhaps century - of vivisection. I'll say no more, except to ask one question.

Please, can someone who thought Saturday achieved so much, please explain to me - apart from what it did actually achieve - how you intend exactly to stop vivisection. What is your plan? How do you see vivisection ending by the methods you currently use, and with the level of support you currently have amongst the public? I'm intrigued by the notion that constant failure can be turned into success.

Incidentally, 'Ex supporter' whilst I would never make any boast of it I have been doing AV campaigning for over 20 years, including stalls, demos, forming 3 AV groups, selling hundreds of books and videos, having many letter published in the press, setting up several web sites, making a video, and distributing 100,000s of leaflet, to mention just some of it. Question my methods if you will, but please do not insult my integrity. I do believe though that this gives me some sort of understanding of just why nothing is being achieved. Have you ever asked yourselves the same question?

Regards,

Steve, you are clearly an anti vivisectionist but I am not sure you give a shit about animal liberation, the protest at the weekend was not JUST about lab animals and vivisection. It was also about solidarity with prisoners and fighting to take back our right to protest.

When one million people marched against the Iraq war was it stopped... no it wasnt... if public opinion made any difference to industry we would be living in a fantastic moral fairy land where we all drink organic soya lattes grow our own veggies and live out long and prosperous lives.

The only thing the goverment and vivisection industry (and every other exploitative industry) understands is money, if the gov has to fork out millions to protect these industries then that is great. If the security costs of Sequani go up because of direct action and mass protests then great.

People need to stop working towards public opinion because public support comes and it goes like the changing seasons... we will never get full support from the public and even if we did, until the rich few who profit from these industries are affected we are not going to see vivisection end...

It is about time we started to make the link between captialism, the state and industry.

Here are my thoughts on the Carnival...

We are moving in the right direction! No organisers = Freedom to think for ourselves!

It is correct that we were still in the "march mentality" people needed to be told by others when and where to go, no-one had planned actions for the day. It is a difficult habit to break but if we have learned anything from the current VPSG prisoner list having leadership (or percieved leadership) it is that leaders are going to go to prison.

We MUST learn from other movements, we must make connections to other social justice movements so we can share experiences and learn about different tactics. Animal liberationists should attend climate camp, should help the local Antifascists and attend the Smash Edo demos and Carnival Against the Arms Trade... These are people who using effective affinity group structures are making a real impact!

People should learn about affinity group structures and actually make plans which dont require the permission, help or support of others. That is the essence of direct action, taking control and making your own decisions!

There were issues with communication on Saturday which could have been solved and some opportunities were missed because people were stuck waiting for someone to tell them what to do... all in all, we were starting to wake up and get pissed off which is a beatuful thing!

Smash the state! Fuck Socpa!

["It's plainly obvious to them that the so-called scientific anti-vivisectionists are really wolves in sheep's clothing and are really doing it for moral reasons." So what if that is the case, so long as the scientific arguments are taken to the vast majority who DO care as to whether vivisection is useful or not?]

Firstly, I don't think the vast majority do care where vivisection is useful, my experience has been that it's the moral argument they care about. Secondly, I don't think it's a good idea to base your entire campaigning base around what is essentially an untruth, especially when you admit it in a public forum!

[Anyway, I see no one took me up on the bet. So here's to another decade - perhaps century - of vivisection. I'll say no more, except to ask one question.

Please, can someone who thought Saturday achieved so much, please explain to me - apart from what it did actually achieve - how you intend exactly to stop vivisection. What is your plan? How do you see vivisection ending by the methods you currently use, and with the level of support you currently have amongst the public? I'm intrigued by the notion that constant failure can be turned into success.]

First rule of propaganda is never ever be negative about your campaign in public. No-one likes to back a loser, so moaning about how bad things are just causes your support to dry up and go elsewhere.

If you look on the SHAC website  http://www.shac.net you can see many quotes from the industry saying how worried they are about the militant campaigns and how billions of pounds of investment is leaving the country because of it. (they haven't learnt the rule of propaganda I mentioned above). Dozens of laboratory animal breeders have been shut down in the past decade by dedicated grassroots campaigns.

Hillgrove had massive support from the public. The authorities learnt from that and make sure now that the media portray animal rights in a bad light, but that is to be expected when you are having an effect.

I know you said it was your last word, but can you likewise give me examples of where the scientific anti-vivisection movement has made concrete advances?

[Incidentally, 'Ex supporter' whilst I would never make any boast of it I have been doing AV campaigning for over 20 years, including stalls, demos, forming 3 AV groups, selling hundreds of books and videos, having many letter published in the press, setting up several web sites, making a video, and distributing 100,000s of leaflet, to mention just some of it. Question my methods if you will, but please do not insult my integrity. I do believe though that this gives me some sort of understanding of just why nothing is being achieved. Have you ever asked yourselves the same question?]

I'm sure you do an excellent job of informing the world about vivisection. But my suggestions are:
1) cut out the negativity, and think positive.
2) cut out the cult-of-celebrity hero worship of Hans Ruesch.
3) stop calling other anti-vivisectionists who disagree with you in any small way "infiltrators from the pharmaceutical industry".
Then I am sure we can get along fine, and complement each other's tactics perfectly!

The Saturday demo was great, a little rain never hurt anyone :)

If anyone has taken any notice, of any of the negative remarks about the the effectivness of demonstrations.

Then cheer yourself up, by reflecting on the postive results they acheive,
The recent banning of the export of monkeys to USA labs, by the government of Nepal is a case in point. Also the recent list of investors in HLS who have dumped their shares.

I seem to remember, wasn't it Pakistan Airlines, no longer transporting animals for vivisection. I saw pictures of people demonstating standing outside offices in London, with placards, handing out leaflets etc.These demonstrations caused the change.

All this negative talk does nothing. Go out for a walk, get some fresh air. Walk down to your local branch of Barclays, with a couple of mates.Then start handing out leaflets.

Be the change that you want :)

Well Auntie, I guess we will have to agree to disagree, though time will, I am certain, prove me correct. Incidentally I do not 'hero worship' Hans Ruesch, but respect him and understand him as the great mind he was - way ahead of his time as are all such luminaries.

Also, my criticism of other supposed AVs as being infiltrators in these posts has only run as far as the BUAV. Do you really think they are genuine; if so then there is no hope at all. Read the history; read Langley's (and others') quotes; perhaps had you been at the EGM in...92(?) you would understand very well. By the way, my old friend Gregor used to jump to defend Langley and co....are you one and the same?

The assembly of like minded people who protest at actions of oppression, for voiceless animals,or for the state muting of freedoms can only be applauded. On the one hand we have the big bucks pharma, together with warmongers,
weapons manufacturing and procurement,on the other we have the real culprits, the government of the day. They who make oppression acceptable to the Joe Public by way of whipping up adverse publicity i.e where there is none they make some, in the media and other forms of rubbish like `The Archers` Eastenders` and other mind numbing ?entertainment? drivel put out amongst the inbred population of these isles. We have big business controlling the media at all levels and unless you live on an island one cannot escape the constant conniving of,successive,governments to control the populations conscience,movement,and power. Those that oppose will win by numbers. So hats,or masks off, to those that turned out.
If the majority of the population accepts that which is fed to them or meted out to them,then it is up to those with the backbone to show that one does not have to cow tow to the corruption of democracy that is taking place throughout the planet. The ideology of capitalism is faltering, just look around,
sub primes,northern rock,the smirk on browns face,sokosy,and the alaskan slapper,and then we hear the stock exchange `goes down` just when the greedy little outsiders were going to make a killing,orchestrated by whom? Insider trading taken to extreme! So things are looking up,time to get Er! Dis organised.

We really don`t need them,they need us.
And we certainly don`t need any more rain for a while.
Or that winstone shit.
Well done once again to everyone who turned up.
Oh and P.S. what is needed is worldwide proportional representation,or it would help ifink.
Now.

[[ Also, my criticism of other supposed AVs as being infiltrators in these posts has only run as far as the BUAV. ]]

First post...

[[ In fact, I am starting to wonder whether the rise of this so-called militant animal rights movement isn't just another tentacle of the vivisection industry purposely formed to infiltrate the more excitable elements of the animal rights movement - just as the BUAV and co have long been infiltrated in order to keep the more sedate members of said 'movement' inactive by deliberately engaging them in useless camapigns against cosmetic testing etc. ]]

So infact, you didn't just accuse BUAV of being infiltrators, but also the militant animal rights movement. We all know buav are a joke, but to say that those who have a conscience and take action which deters abusers from killing or exploiting animals is ludicrous. You are trying to suggest that the 200 people are supporting state infiltration, but its not rubbing off.

I had a 6 hour round-trip to Ledbury on Saturday. I knew my actions would not directly save 1 animal but I did so to show my solidarity for those wrongly inprisoned, both animals and protestors.

I think we should all keep sight of the fact that, ignoring the infiltrators, we all have the same beliefs and aims. An end to animal suffering, the downfall of the animal abusers and freedom for those compassionate souls that have made the ultimate sacrifice and are today behind bars for their beliefs.

As I left for my 3 hour drive home I felt a little deflated that our numbers were not greater on the day, but since then I have had time to reflect and am glad that I went. I am, relatively speaking, new to the AR movement but the day has inspired me to do more.

I don't know anybody within the movement and as such any actions I take may be relatively small, but the point is there are many ways in which we can fight this fight and every life saved is to be celebrated.

I'm all for debate about tactics/progression of the movement but we should not criticise others within the movement for whatever action they take. We already have plenty of opponents and our time and energy is surely better served concentrating on reaching our goal!

Respect to everybody who turned up on Saturday and to everybody fighting the fight by whatever means.