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Trouble at Carnival Against Vivisection?

Thoughtful | 05.09.2008 14:14

Unsure of what reaction and comments I'll get for the following opinions, but it's always good to know what people think so here goes...

So, tomorrow is the Carnival Against Vivisection and everyone is talking about whether or not it's going to kick off. It was first advertised with the words "After the energy of the SmashEDO demonstration..." giving off the kind of vibe and suggestion that it was hoped that some sort of trouble would kick off.

Noone asked for permission for the march which was fantastic, especially after we saw posters saying "Protest by right, not by police permission" at the last mass demonstration held in Ledbury. There we also saw a number of protesters do a sit-down, lock-on protest on the road. All respect to them for that - the police had no idea what they were doing and from where I was standing we had a great view of the general reactions to this. Even the public seemed horrified at the reaction of the police - dragging people around and hurting them while literally throwing anyone out of the way who was just trying to observe the situation.

However, I've been thinking about the protest tomorrow and considering the police and media, etc. are obviously sure something will kick off. The police gave permission for it to go ahead, presumably because they were feeling left out and wanted to pretend to themselves that they have some kind of control over us and also presumably so that they could write out a nice Sec. 12 for us to have to follow. They want organisers to come forward so they can negotiate with them (police negotiation - "Our way or not at all" usually) about what will happen, they're panicking.

There are 2 ways this could go (well, there are several, but in general terms, 2 ways).

The demonstration could kick off (or a few people could) - we could try and rush the lab and smash it up as much as possible before people get grabbed, injured and arrested. Likelyhood of this happening? Quite likely that some will try. Unlikely that it'll succeed. Especially after maps and suggestions have been up here showing the various ways of getting to Sequani, I think the cops might be on standby and probably lined up outside the place. Outcome: people arrested, cops angry, public thinking we're idiots just out to cause trouble for the cops and not interested in actual saving any animals (I get told this all the time, even when just doing stalls or leafletting with no cops in sight!)

Or we could do a march and demonstration without any trouble. We could march around the streets, where we want to still - I'm not saying take orders from the cops, at our own speed and stay in control of the demonstration, but people could stay calm, basically ignore the fact that the cops are there. If they try to provoke, they want a reaction, especially one that means trouble might start and they can arrest people. That would make them feel in control, that's what they want.

I propose that we do just that - we do a march, "organised" by ourselves, controlled by ourselves. We ignore the fact that the cops are there - we don't let them control us, but we don't fight them - remember, they're not our target! If they try to start trouble, do what you'd do with bullies - ignore them and they'll get bored, they'll be frustrated that we don't react to them. They'll try harder, we'll try harder to ignore them.

Outcome: We show the public, the cops, the media, ourselves that we aren't just crazy and out to cause trouble, that we can hold demonstrations under our own conditions and we can be responsible. If trouble kicks off, what will we have achieved? We won't have got anywhere towards closing down Sequani, the public won't be on our side, the police will love it because they'll have got a reaction from us and probably some arrests...

I don't know. What do you guys think? I reckon we try to keep it calm, the public will be more on side and think the cops are heavy-handed and have over-reacted (as we all know they do) and the cops will be annoyed that they haven't got to us. We'll have done a peaceful march because we decided to do a peaceful march, not because we were made to do a peaceful march. Let's leave the civil disobedience for demonstrations where we'll actually achieve something with it, times when the cops really try to oppress us and times when they're not expecting trouble.

And let's leave the real trouble for times when there are no cops around and it's really unexpected.

Have a good demo, whatever your opinions. I just think we need to start thinking more about how best to achieve what we want to.

Comments appreciated.

Thoughtful

Comments

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A thoughful piece

05.09.2008 14:47

A well reasoned and reasonable post but I fear it misses the issue of ego.

Those that deny organising this demo have too much ego invested in it to allow it to pass of peacfully.

Indeed factions such as FITwatch exist only to provoke a reaction.

No - there will be sit downs and lock ons etc.

You are right about the animals though - this won't help at all.

Jacob


Good article

05.09.2008 15:01

Nice writing and good to see but it hasn't changed my view about this event. I've been involved in animal liberation work for 8 years now and I can't think of a time when we have been less effective. The reason being the infiltration of groups like SHAC by cops and security servies goons and cross group infighting of the type that has killed the political Left in Britain.

This carnival will be a great opportunity for the police to get lots of us together, photograph us, record our details and once more weaken us. I know of some comrades who even think this was arranged by the police, I don't go that far but it's no longer a farciful suggestion. Above I see that somebody spoke about the egos of those involved and I couldn't agree more, for some animal liberation is just the latest in a series of causes they work with for a time before moving on.

We will never close the labs with another demo, another march, another round of chants. We need to win over the population, let them know about the horror of these places, work towards changes in the law to eliminate them. Look what was the case with hunting, 20 years of sabbing achieved nothing, three years of political lobbying and we have a ban.

I won't be at the carnival.

remember why we do this


Hmmm...

05.09.2008 15:39

Firslty, the carnival is quite obviously not organised by the cops. Secondly, this mass hysteria about "infiltration of groups" kinda needs to calm itself. Realistically, who cares if the cops infiltrate SHAC? They are a legal campaign anyway, and although people are getting stitched up for "running" SHAC, this in itself is not due to illegality but the effectiveness of the campaign.

I thought this article did bring up some good points. Ultimately though, walking in line on a moderate and relatively mainstream demo is, long term, as ineffective as rushing into the lab in broad daylight and smashing stuff up. The main difference being however, that at least if things get smashed, Sequani lose money. Since when has awareness and public opinion EVER stopped wrongdoings of our past? Would slavery have been won with a national demo? Would women have the vote if they decided to hold placards in orderly lines and walk down the streets? I don't think so... as for the reference above to getting a hunting ban, look out into the fields, they are still hunting, the sabs are still sabbing and the sickos are still ripping foxes apart.

Opinions are only worthwhile if people actually act on them, and most people don't. Personally there isn't enough time to change everyone's mind in an increasingly apathetic and capitalist world, although I do agree public opinion has a role at some degree. Just not a particularly vital one.

People are angry and passionate, and I think it's a good thing that this is shown on a national demonstration. The police have created this situation themselves by imprisoning Sean and others who have been seen to run campaigns. It may not be about the police directly, but they are the ones protecting the abusers and locking good people away...


"An individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law."
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.

Observer


Thanks for the comments...

05.09.2008 15:42

It's interesting to find out how people feel.

As far as I'm concerned, doing a lot of stall and demonstrations where you get to interact with the public (talking to them, debating, getting abuse, the usual...) the activities of the ALF can get quite a lot of support from some, but when comments are bad about them, they're pretty bad and people blame the whole of the AR movement for the activities of some. This isn't wholly relevant and I won't state whether or not I support the ALF in general (you never know who's reading...)

I do think however that lawful campaigns should try not to piss off the public and to try and gain public support, even when public support won't change anything - for example: campaigns against fur need public support as we need people to boycott fur and fur shops, etc. etc. whereas vivisection (probably) won't be stopped even if most of the public were against it (this mainly applies to medical testing which the majority of people are for, as far as I'm aware)

Despite this, if the anti-viv movement (as well as others) had the backing of the majority of the public and weren't portrayed as terrorists (or even if the media did describe us this way, the public wouldn't believe it) it would be easier to get through to people that vivisection is more harmful to humans, that it is ineffective, that it is a vile and cruel industry useful only for pharmaceutical companies to create new diseases and conditions and make massive profits). It would also be harder for the media to portray us in a negative way or, if they did, more people would realise how many lies are told every single day through the media, it would be harder for the cops to justify their heavy-handedness and massive presence at peaceful protests (and the existence of FIT) and for the Government to justify bringing in ID cards, etc. etc. etc.

Maybe it wouldn't do any of this. I just think that, as official organisations and protest groups, it would be beneficial not to have the public hate us as well as a lot of cops and the government. It might help, it might not, but it might get more people involved if they agreed with our tactics.

I'm all for civil disobedience, lock-ons, sit-downs, road-blocks, tripods, eye-catching actions, non-violent direct action, but there is a time and place for all this and I don't think a demo that's been advertised in a way that suggests people want it to kick off and things to get smashed up (which, let's face it, we're not going to get anywhere near to doing) is the right time at all. The place, fair enough...maybe on a day when there aren't many cops about and when it's not expected??

I'd love to do a totally peaceful demo tomorrow, masked up and not taking any shit from the cops because while we get our voices heard, even if it's just by a few members of the local public, the media won't be able to hype anything up - they'll be surprised by our behaviour and the cops will be more pissed off than if we manage to smash 3 windows and do a bit of graffiti. Let's not give the cops what they want - they've been panicking and getting worried and desperate (even before this demo was first advertised, they were asking people to be informants, they were reacting really pathetically and badly to even just a few people leafletting, trying to impose ridiculous conditions on small demos...) and they'll hate it if they don't manage to get any arrests from tomorrow and can't tell anyone that it was anarchy and extremism at its worst and that's why we need rules and regulations, permission for protest, massive police presence everywhere...

Anyway I've gone on longer than I wanted to. I have a feeling the majority of people won't be on my side in this...

We'll have to see.

Thoughtful...still


Is the event about the animals or the public, the cops and the media?

05.09.2008 15:42


The latter think we are crazy, deranged, no.1 terrorists, violent and the rest of it. They have done for tens of years and will continue to either think this or advocate it for political or financial aims and reasons. Not to mention the police sate won't disappear overnight!

Do you really think that one event, and a (possible) few media articles about how pleasant we all are will change the decade old opinion that ARA's are "Animal Rights Extremists". It's definitely not going to change the political and financial status of animal industries or the suffering and death imposed on animals daily. But we still have overwhelming support.

"The question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists will we be?"
- Martin Luther King, Jr - But we support him now right? What would Martin say for today?

"One day the absurdity of the almost universal human belief in the slavery of other animals will be palpable. We shall then have discovered our souls and become worthier of sharing this planet with them." Martin Luther King, Jr

As for the animals themselves, they definitely did NOT want this article, I have a feeling they quite admire Sean Kirtley who stood up for them and was imprisoned for four and a half years, along with everyone else attending the event. An article to deter people from attending is neither helpful for the animals nor appreciated. Ironic how the article and reply didn't mention him at all..........is he not relevant? Do we not care about prisoners of repression?

If I was an animal inside Sequani at the moment, I would definitely hope that nobody just "marches around the streets" and ignores trying to save me when they possible could, with nobody held accountable. I also would hope that the police don't start using violence against activists trying to walk in and save me, it never helps and could cause trouble.

The only good point made in this article:
"This carnival will be a great opportunity for the police to get lots of us together, photograph us, record our details and once more weaken us."

THINK! Bandanas. If not, remember they have ALWAYS done this. Seems like another "going back to the drawing board" and backing out of protests scheme. (???)

For people who say " I've been involved in animal liberation work for 8 years" etc, etc, haven't we all? Does it really matter? Not at all, not to the animals anyway. The point is we are all here now, not background of activism. My main concern is that you are not working for animal liberation, but for animal rights.

"Animal Liberation is not an idea, a theory; it's a potential event in an animals life."

Just remember that the AR movement of not run by liberals and politicians, but by individuals who get up and take action for the animals.

thinking about the animals


To: remember why we do this

05.09.2008 15:47

You talk about splits and in fighting, but don’t seem to recognise a diversity of tactics. The only way to avoid in fighting is accepting everyone has his or her own role to play.

Hunt ‘ban’? What the hell? As far as I know most hunting is continuing. Sabs are still in action – saving lives you know. It’s good they can *sometimes* prosecute as well but they still sab to save lives.

ARC


Why

05.09.2008 15:59

Are the only articles that get comments from animal liberation militants surely there are some more pressing issues that face humanity and ultimately also animals.

:-(


I won't be attending

05.09.2008 16:00

I agree with the poster "remember why we do this". It will be a great chance for police to photograph us, search us, nick us, etc. I doubt the event will be a fraction as militant as people sitting in web cafes are making out. Anyone else notice that events billed to be militant always attract more police but less activists?

If anyone was considering doing criminal damage I would think again. If you meet people on the demo egging you on to do such remember agent provocotuers may be there.

A poster mentioned costing the company money but even if every window in the buildings was broken it wouldn't even ruffle their finances. There is a time for going beyond simply demonstrating but rucking with the cops for nothing just reinforces the idea that the animal rights movement in a violent one.

For those going, take care!

Ruby


Response

05.09.2008 16:19

OK...firstly: this article wasn't written to deter people from going to the march

Secondly: I didn't mention Sean Kirtley, you're right. I also didn't mention Barry Horne, Natasha Avery, Dan Amos, Jill Phipps, everyone else who's either died or been imprisoned for fighting for animals. That doesn't mean I don't respect them or what they've done or what they do.

Thirdly, you've mentioned women fighting for the right to vote and the fight against slavery - civil disobedience worked because people began to wake up to the oppression, saw the truth about what was happening around them. From the reaction I get from a lot of people, the tactics we use are turning people away from getting involved. They support what we want to achieve, just not how we go about it.

People even support the tactics of the ALF when they liberate animals, when places of abuse get smashed up in the middle of the night and I've even heard support for arson. When people complain about us, the majority of them talk about the marches we go on, protests where people just shout and don't debate with those who question what they're doing, but call them names and don't listen to them. I get asked if I don't think there are more effective tactics to use.

Just to clarify, I will be at the demo tomorrow, but I won't be trying to cause trouble. Personally I don't think national demonstrations achieve much anyway - they're good for showing that a lot of people support a certain campaign or are against an abuse of animals.

If you really want to help animals break into Sequani in the middle of the night on some random night when noone expects it and liberate the animals. What will you really be able to do tomorrow? Run into the car park, get tackled to the floor and arrested. If you get put in prison how will you be able to help animals?

Sean Kirtley has my full respect, I think he's a great guy and what's happened to him is absolutely disgusting. People I've talked to think it's shit as well once I've explained that all he was accused of doing was running a lawful campaign. That gets people on side. Looking like we just want to cause trouble and provoke the police (which is what a lot of people think our motive is) isn't going to help us or the animals.

What's more effective: Smashing the place up at night (I'm not saying I condone or condemn this) and liberating the animals or getting arrested, losing even more public support* and not even managing to cause any damage to the lab or rescue any animals?

* (they seem very easy to put off and it takes a lot of work to make them open up to the issues of veganism, etc. as well - people have even said to me, and this is fucking petty and annoys me, that they did support a ban on vivisection but because of the way we handle campaigns, they're not going to voice their opposition anymore)

All I was trying to say in the article was maybe we need to think more about which tactics at which times and locations would be the best ones to use to achieve our goals.

Thoughtful...


Answer to the problem that isn't one

05.09.2008 16:19

Go - because animals are dying inside ledbury and they want freedom
Support - Sean Kirtley, he doesn't belong in prison and YOU could be next!
Do - what you feel is right and works, ignore anyway else you don't agree with
Be - happy that you are there as part of a united animal rights movement
Don't - try and stop others, you will only be able to do so by the use of force and violence

Militant


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Police infiltration

05.09.2008 17:09

I'm pleased to see that at last the whole police infiltration issue is no longer being swept under the carpet. We need to face up to this and deal with it once and for all. All of the major animal rights organisations have been completely infiltrated by the police. We know it, they know it and hardly anybody wants to talk about it openly. I have personal experience of this, I lost my job because I made comments at a meeting where I thought everybody there was one of us, I was wrong one of them was a cop and my words were sent to my employer and I was dismissed. All of the people at that meeting are still active in the movement, I don't know which one is a cop but I know it's one of them.

They are using tactics and equipment designed for anti terrorist work, they see us as terrorists and target us accordingly, all of us. They make no distinction between moderate and extremist, if we are involved in animal liberation work then we are potential terrorists in their eyes. I never until recently understood this until I spoke to an ex copper who is my neighbor, he cares about animal rights issues but I was shocked when he said he would never, never, never attend a rally or write an email, or donate via credit card or bank account to any animal rights organisation. He said that any action like that would bring you to the attention of the police, he talked about the scanner technology they use to grab mobile phone conversations, the emails that are intercepted and read by GCHQ, the web sites that are monitored (including this one) and the constant surveillance that goes on (by the way he says that FIT is just a smokescreen, the real videoing goes on with hidden cameras carried by infiltrators )

If you are going (and I am) keep a low profile, mask up and stay masked up all day, trust nobody you don't know personally and have known for a long time. Keep your guard up and be aware of everybody around you, those that engage you in conversation, those that ask for a light, those that offer some food or a drink. Do not take a mobile phone, take no ID. Lose the clothes you were wearing after the action.

Tony, who will be there


A few points...

05.09.2008 17:29

Every individual should follow their conscience and make an informed choice. If that means never attending a demo because your security is compromised by police intelligence gathering then fine you will be far more effective if you are unknown to them. If someone wants to do only "legal stuff" and obey the police that is fine too and is probably what I'll be doing tommorrow. If someone wants to leap onto the roof and hang a banner, liberate a beagle or do something else then that too is fine as far as my humble opinion is concerned we all have a role to play. Sit downs, site invasions and lock ons are utterly non violent albeit maybe a bit "naughty", so what if you do not want to be associated with this walk away or don't come in the first place.

I am flabergasted by the comments regarding hunting. Sabbing is ancient there are references to sabotaging hunts in the ancient babylonian Gilgamesh epic . More recently the Victorians smashed up grouse butts and called themselves the band of mercy. Animal rights people lobbied for a ban on hunting for over 150 years NOT 3 as some ignoramous misinformed us. The Hunt Saboteurs Association was formed in 1963 and without the pictures, video footage and testimonies (many from brave sabs who went undercover) a "ban" would never have been possible. The "ban" is hardly effective anyway with countless hunts carrying on regardless. At least sabs save lives directly.

Fitwatch are a group of brave activists who have RESPONDED to the Forward Intelligence Teams up and down the country harassing all manner of activists by standing up to them, often risking arrest themselves, I am astonished that anyone other than the police has a problem with this but each to his/her own.

Oh yes and now SHAC is infiltrated too. Would the accuser like to actually explain the evidence behind such an allegation or is there any? Who has infiltrated SHAC and what if this has happened are they going to do about it given the serious nature of this belief (or tendency to shit stir)? It I suspected that there was an infiltrator the very last thing I would do is post vague nonsense on Indymedia because all this does is create paranoia and splits up the movement. A word of advice to those who genuinely think that SHAC, WARN, NETCU WATCH, IMC etc etc are full of egotistical informers, look up the Free Beagles website which gives sensible advise on this matter and stop the histrionics!
Lynn

lynn Sawyer
mail e-mail: lynn@sawyer8749.freeserve.co.uk


The article lies; check the first "quote" - its unfounded

05.09.2008 18:43

-- It was first advertised with the words "After the energy of the SmashEDO demonstration..."

Apart from the fact NOBODY has ever advertised it in this manner?

See  http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%22After+the+energy+of+the+SmashEDO+demonstration...%22&meta=

Why falsify what people said? Furthermore; "giving off the kind of vibe and suggestion that it was hoped that some sort of trouble would kick off."

I don't remember the suggestion to kick off trouble? Unless trouble is doing a banner drop, a lock on, liberating a beagle or simply blockading a road by legally marching down it?

Its impossible to understand somebody who says "I support........" thus "We shouldn't.........."; next you'll propose for everyone to email Sequani instead of march against them.

lab rat


Is somebody really stupid enough?

05.09.2008 18:51

To go on about how they support Sean and everything included with the case etc, then slag off the event....either very low, very stupid, or very cop-like. Shame on them if they really care about animals like they claim to. This is a worse article than when the HSUS donated thousands of pounds to the Green Scare; paying for the harassment of activists, home raids, infiltrating vegan pot lucks and destroying any hope for activists having a First Amendment.

It's time for grassroots resistance.

not an idiot


Terribly sorry...

05.09.2008 19:28

I got confused with an email I had forwarded to me about the carnival when it was first advertsied - that was what said "after the energy of the smashedo carnival..." Sorry my memory fails me slightly after so many months!

Thanks to those people who wrote that you should just do what you're comfortable with - I absolutely agree. The reason I wrote this article was just to see what people's opinions were on the issue and to see what my suggestion would be thought of. I don't think that writing one article on indymedia will stop any trouble or kick off any trouble or actually have any impact on the outcome of tomorrow's demonstration.

Thanks to the person who suggested I might be a cop. I have campaigned for animal rights and various other issues for over 7 years now. I like that someone can go on a so-called independent media site and write something to gauge people's reaction to their suggestion and, although they respect those who reply to them and their opinions, they get called cops and have irrelevant and angry responses, saying their stupid and don't care about animals.

Fuck you guys (note: not Lynn and any other people that actually said something intelligent or well-thought out). I basically asked a question - I didn't say I wanted everyone to do what I want them to, I merely wanted to see if anyone else agreed and, hopefully get some semi-intelligent responses. Which luckily there have been some.

Some people have different opinions. It doesn't mean they're stupid or a cop. If you feel like that then you're unlikely to ever manage to change anyone's opinion because they're immediately stupid or a cop to you.

You know nothing about me, I'm just some writing on the internet. Educated responses only please!

Whatever your reason for going tomorrow, have a good time and don't let the cops provoke you. They're not the target and fighting them will only drain your energy. Ignore them and concentrate on whatever you're going to the demo for. It'll piss them off more and focus you better...

Still thoughtful..


I'll be there

05.09.2008 23:47

and reading your comments just think that I'll make a big photocopy of my ID, add address, phone no and timetable to keep it visible for everybody who wants to arrest me for saying/doing what I think is right

Jo


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