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Army Website Prefers Trolls To Truth

R.A.McCartney | 09.06.2008 13:23 | Anti-militarism | Other Press

Rob McCartney has published several articles on Indymedia about fraud and corruption on MOD Equipment contracts. He posted links to one on the British Army Rumour Service website to promote discussion among members of the armed forces. The site admin supported attempts to intimidate him for raising the issue, even though it was a clear breech of their own rules.

As most of us know, Trolls are people who annoy and abuse other users so much that they are usually banned from Internet discussion sites. Posting an opponent's real world name and address would get a troll automatically banned by most websites and ISPs, but not apparently by the British Army Rumour Service (www.arrse.co.uk). When Rob McCartney complained to the site administrators that another user had published his name and address on their website, they agreed that it was a breech of their site policies. However, they took no action against the troll. Instead ARRSE (yes, that's what they call themselves) decided to terminated Rob's account.

ARRSE claims to be independent and allow “reasoned argument” by everyone interested in the British army. Rob has posted a number of articles on the Indymedia news website about fraud and corruption on Ministry of Defence Equipment contracts. “Members of the armed services are the principle victims of this” says Rob “so I wanted to bring the facts to their attention”. He started an ARRSE discussion thread called “Did corruption kill the Nimrod 14?” to discuss his latest article ( http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/05/399295.html).

Around 3,500 people read the discussion. Some users were sympathetic. 'Bakersfield', who appeared to be involved in MOD procurement himself, said "Really interesting history on BATES, which I knew nothing about. But I know it goes on and the thread title is the dead giveaway”.

However, the forum moderator angrily demanded that Rob prove his claims. He duly provided a lengthy list of references to Parliamentary answers and a National Audit Office report, including page and paragraph numbers. Immediately another user jumped in to dismiss this as “mere rumour and supposition”, while another published his name and address. “As I pointed out in my complaint”, says Rob “I don't mind giving my real name, but publishing my name AND address was clearly an attempt to intimidate me and a breech of the ARRSE rules”.

Rob says “It looked suspiciously like the forum moderator was using another identity to troll. Whether or not that was the case, ARRSE have shown which side they are on. Clearly, they do not have the interests of ordinary service personnel at heart. If they did, they would be outraged at the fact that the MOD and politicians were protecting companies accused of fraud. Instead they showed hostility to me for trying to expose this corruption”.

Rob was also criticized for posting his article to the Indymedia website, which one user denounced as “a bunch of commies”. “I pointed out that most ISPs and websites would remove material without a legal fight if they received a complaint . Indymedia however, has an honorable record of resisting censorship. My decision to post to Indymedia has been fully vindicated by the action of ARRSE in closing my account and removing the thread I started”.

Ends.

Extract from complaint to ARRSE site admin:

Unsworth and JustLoitering are guilty of the following breeches of the ARRSE standards laid out at  http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/p=78709.html. (The full posts are listed at the end of this message). (Your link “Please click here for to see the ARRSE Complaints Policy and Procedures” doesn't work).


Posting Standards Applicable To All Boards, point b. “Use of real names.“

Unsworth attempted to intimidate me by giving my real world name and address.
JustLoitering's constant goading to identify my exact role on BATES is a not very subtle way of doing the same thing.

I actually don't mind giving my real name, but I do object to people trying to use blackmail and intimidation when they don't have any valid points to make.


Posting Standards for Serious boards, point c. “Non-contributory posting ie pointless ranting.“

Unsworth obliquely admits he hasn't even read the Hansard reference I gave. (If he had read it he wouldn't be asking for a URL. He'd either give a URL or quote the text). Yet he claims to be offering an 'expert interpretation' of it which conflicts with what I said.

JustLoitering dismissed the detailed series of references I gave (to a National Audit Office report and parliamentary answers) as “nothing but hearsay and supposition”.

R.A.McCartney

Comments

Hide the following 6 comments

ARRRSE

09.06.2008 15:19

ARRRSE is probably astroturf PR by the MOD anyway. It's often quoted in the papers as the authentic voice of 'our boys' with a 'they're-ordinary-blokes-who-use-the-web' subtext. There's no way such an autocratic organisation would allow such a huge and popular forum for their employees to exist in true independence.

Good place for advice on polishing combat boots though :)

anonymous


Folk who prefer to draft in the third person

10.06.2008 12:12

This is the name of the 14 lads who died in that Nimrod:

* Allan James Squires
* Steven Johnson
* Leigh Anthony Mitchelmore
* Gareth Rodney Nicholas
* Steven Swarbrick
* Gary Wayne Andrews
* Stephen Beattie
* Gerard Martin Bell
* Adrian Davies
* Benjamin James Knigh
* John Joseph Langton
* Gary Paul Quilliam
* Oliver Simon Dicketts
* Joseph David Windall

ARRSE has many threads concerning this loss of life:

* RAF Nimrod was 'never airworthy'
 http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=97278/highlight=nimrod.html

* 10 have quit' due to Nimrod safety
 http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=97403/highlight=nimrod.html

* Withdrawing Nimrod would hit fight against Taliban
 http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=97329/highlight=nimrod.html

* Afghan crash Nimrod should never have flown, RAF chief admit
 http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=96591/highlight=nimrod.html

* MoD 'Ignored Warnings On Nimrod'...
 http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=83745/highlight=nimrod.html

* New Safety Fears for RAF Nimrods
 http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=81820/highlight=nimrod.html

* RAF 'knew about Nimrod leaks before crash'
 http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=80721/highlight=nimrod.html

* Nimrod loss
 http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=45620/highlight=nimrod.html

* Fuel fault grounds RAF Nimrod fleet.
 http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=59223/highlight=nimrod.html

* RAF Crews Quit Over Unsafe Nimrod MR2
 http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=51682/highlight=nimrod.html

* RAF widow hits out at "cutbacks"
 http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=49114/highlight=nimrod.html

Sure there´s some trolls on ARRSE ... there´s trolls everywhere these days, isn´t there.

Can you post a link to your thread on ARRSE please Rob.

diamat


reply to diamat

11.06.2008 12:17

Those 14 people would not have been killed if the MRA4 had been deployed on time. The delay was caused by changes to the specification. Everyone in MOD procurement and in the arms industry is aware that changes should be avoided because they force huge delays and price increases. BAe was given the contract to produce the MRA4 in 1996. Sir Raymond Lygo, former head of BAe, said it regularly used changes as an excuse to ratchet up the price of contracts and boost profits.

Around 3,500 people read my thread, some of them with obvious knowledge of the MOD procurement process.

- Not one person found a genuine flaw with the evidence that there is widespread fraud on contracts to develop equipment for Britain's armed forces.

- I gave precise references to Parliamentary answers by Sir Timothy Sainsbury, James Arbuthnot, and Lord Gilbert. The troll who admitted he hadn't read their answers was the only person who disputed the fact that they all lied to protect a company accused of fraud.

I write my Indymedia articles in the third person so I can put out the same material as press releases without re-editing it.

As I say in the final sentence of the article, ARRSE removed the thread I posted. However, if you do a Scroogle search for “Nimrod 14”, you can still see it listed at numbers 2 & 3.

Trolls are common. However, ARRSE admitted someone breeched their rules by publishing my name and address. I don't know of any other website which has refused to take action against someone who did this, and which actually penalised the victim by terminating their account and deleting their postings.

As far as I can see, the other threads you mention are just repeating things which have been widely reported in the corporate media.

R.A.McCartney


reply to Rob

12.06.2008 14:29

Thanks Rob for the titbit on BAe, viz:

´Sir Raymond Lygo, former head of BAe, said it regularly used changes as an excuse to ratchet up the price of contracts and boost profits.´ -- I think this is true of all contractors now, and has been for a long time.

* ´As I say in the final sentence of the article, ARRSE removed the thread I posted´

Whoops, I missed that -- your final paragraph reads:

´Rob was also criticized for posting his article to the Indymedia website, which one user denounced as “a bunch of commies”. “I pointed out that most ISPs and websites would remove material without a legal fight if they received a complaint . Indymedia however, has an honorable record of resisting censorship. My decision to post to Indymedia has been fully vindicated by the action of ARRSE in closing my account and removing the thread I started”.´

Can I ask, to whom are you speaking, when you quote yourself speaking?

* ´As far as I can see, the other threads you mention are just repeating things which have been widely reported in the corporate media.´

Well they are and they aren´t, aren´t they. I think it is wrong to assume that just because a thread starts off by bringing something that has been widely reported elsewhere to the attention of a specific group, then that specific group can do nothing other than merely echo the initial report. Especially if that group has particular expertise in the field discussed.

I suppose what´s on my mind is this: I read ARRSE most days, as I do Indymedia and I took umbrage with the title and the tone of your article. It appears to me that you are suggesting that your thread on the Nimrod defines which ´truth´ needs to be discussed if ´the interests of ordinary service personnel´ are to be served and protected.

* You state: “It looked suspiciously like the forum moderator was using another identity to troll. Whether or not that was the case, ARRSE have shown which side they are on. Clearly, they do not have the interests of ordinary service personnel at heart. If they did, they would be outraged at the fact that the MOD and politicians were protecting companies accused of fraud. Instead they showed hostility to me for trying to expose this corruption”.

Everyone knows BAe is bent. It´s been echoed in the corporate media often enough. Everyone knows the gobment is bent; this is repeated often enough too, all over -- I read it on ARRSE I think more than any where else. Still, I don´t think the moderators on ARRSE showed you any real hostility. Remember the folk that run ARRSE have no doubt lost mates in active service, maybe some on that Nimrod. I suspect they were probably just gently nudging you along.

diamat


Final comment on diamat

21.06.2008 14:47

1. BAE (then BAe) have known since at least 1985 that there were potential safety problems with the existing Nimrod. The replacement MRA4 would have removed those dangers. It looks suspiciously like BAE knowingly delayed the introduction of the MRA4, and therefore can be blamed for the 14 deaths, because of its use of changes to the specification to boost profits. This may have included, as on another project, inventing completely spurious reasons for changing the specification. “diamat”'s response is 'what's the big deal? - all contractors use changes to boost profits'. Clearly, his concept of what is morally acceptable is revolting and his professed concern for the 14 dead is completely artificial.

2. I said “ARRSE admitted someone breeched their rules by publishing my name and address. I don't know of any other website which has refused to take action against someone who did this, and which actually penalised the victim by terminating their account and deleting their postings. “

“diamat” said “I don´t think the moderators on ARRSE showed you any real hostility.”


3. “diamat” is repeating questions which have already been answered, and using them to try to make hostile implications which he lacks the courage (and evidence) to make openly.

I said “I write my Indymedia articles in the third person so I can put out the same material as press releases without re-editing it”. It is a basic rule for writing press releases that you write them in the third person and put some of your material in the form of quotes. I assume “diamat” knows this since the same name has been used to post notices to Indymedia on behalf of two organisations. Can I ask:

i) Why is “diamat” asking questions which have already been answered?

ii) What is “diamat” trying to imply when he refers to the fact that I post Indymedia articles in the third person, and when he asks why I put in quotes? How does following the normal rules for writing press releases support that implication?

R.A.McCartney


ARRSE - Shut the website down.

15.12.2015 17:20

Like Rob, I posted a serious question on ARRSE as I am doing some private research on attitudes and perceptions of ex-service personnel and the Veterans who were gassed there. It seems I posted it in the "wrong area". That's ok, I don't mind that. At first I had the usual witticisms you would expect. However, they rapidly descended into personal abuse. One individual even said he "doubted I ever served". I pm'd him and gave him my service bona-fides, (first four number of my eight digit service number) only to receive more abuse on the open forum I had started. Another one even said that the abuse was my fault. The site is, in my opinion, degenerated into nothing more than a site where inadequate people just give out abuse and claim it to be "wit" or "service banter". I have now asked to have my profile removed from the site. Maybe it's time for this website to be taken down, as it appears I'm not the only one to be complaining about it's content...

Ian Foulkes
mail e-mail: blackdog661@gmx.co.uk