Army Website Prefers Trolls To Truth
R.A.McCartney | 09.06.2008 13:23 | Anti-militarism | Other Press
Rob McCartney has published several articles on Indymedia about fraud and corruption on MOD Equipment contracts. He posted links to one on the British Army Rumour Service website to promote discussion among members of the armed forces. The site admin supported attempts to intimidate him for raising the issue, even though it was a clear breech of their own rules.
As most of us know, Trolls are people who annoy and abuse other users so much that they are usually banned from Internet discussion sites. Posting an opponent's real world name and address would get a troll automatically banned by most websites and ISPs, but not apparently by the British Army Rumour Service (www.arrse.co.uk). When Rob McCartney complained to the site administrators that another user had published his name and address on their website, they agreed that it was a breech of their site policies. However, they took no action against the troll. Instead ARRSE (yes, that's what they call themselves) decided to terminated Rob's account.
ARRSE claims to be independent and allow “reasoned argument” by everyone interested in the British army. Rob has posted a number of articles on the Indymedia news website about fraud and corruption on Ministry of Defence Equipment contracts. “Members of the armed services are the principle victims of this” says Rob “so I wanted to bring the facts to their attention”. He started an ARRSE discussion thread called “Did corruption kill the Nimrod 14?” to discuss his latest article ( http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/05/399295.html).
Around 3,500 people read the discussion. Some users were sympathetic. 'Bakersfield', who appeared to be involved in MOD procurement himself, said "Really interesting history on BATES, which I knew nothing about. But I know it goes on and the thread title is the dead giveaway”.
However, the forum moderator angrily demanded that Rob prove his claims. He duly provided a lengthy list of references to Parliamentary answers and a National Audit Office report, including page and paragraph numbers. Immediately another user jumped in to dismiss this as “mere rumour and supposition”, while another published his name and address. “As I pointed out in my complaint”, says Rob “I don't mind giving my real name, but publishing my name AND address was clearly an attempt to intimidate me and a breech of the ARRSE rules”.
Rob says “It looked suspiciously like the forum moderator was using another identity to troll. Whether or not that was the case, ARRSE have shown which side they are on. Clearly, they do not have the interests of ordinary service personnel at heart. If they did, they would be outraged at the fact that the MOD and politicians were protecting companies accused of fraud. Instead they showed hostility to me for trying to expose this corruption”.
Rob was also criticized for posting his article to the Indymedia website, which one user denounced as “a bunch of commies”. “I pointed out that most ISPs and websites would remove material without a legal fight if they received a complaint . Indymedia however, has an honorable record of resisting censorship. My decision to post to Indymedia has been fully vindicated by the action of ARRSE in closing my account and removing the thread I started”.
Ends.
Extract from complaint to ARRSE site admin:
Unsworth and JustLoitering are guilty of the following breeches of the ARRSE standards laid out at http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/p=78709.html. (The full posts are listed at the end of this message). (Your link “Please click here for to see the ARRSE Complaints Policy and Procedures” doesn't work).
Posting Standards Applicable To All Boards, point b. “Use of real names.“
Unsworth attempted to intimidate me by giving my real world name and address.
JustLoitering's constant goading to identify my exact role on BATES is a not very subtle way of doing the same thing.
I actually don't mind giving my real name, but I do object to people trying to use blackmail and intimidation when they don't have any valid points to make.
Posting Standards for Serious boards, point c. “Non-contributory posting ie pointless ranting.“
Unsworth obliquely admits he hasn't even read the Hansard reference I gave. (If he had read it he wouldn't be asking for a URL. He'd either give a URL or quote the text). Yet he claims to be offering an 'expert interpretation' of it which conflicts with what I said.
JustLoitering dismissed the detailed series of references I gave (to a National Audit Office report and parliamentary answers) as “nothing but hearsay and supposition”.
ARRSE claims to be independent and allow “reasoned argument” by everyone interested in the British army. Rob has posted a number of articles on the Indymedia news website about fraud and corruption on Ministry of Defence Equipment contracts. “Members of the armed services are the principle victims of this” says Rob “so I wanted to bring the facts to their attention”. He started an ARRSE discussion thread called “Did corruption kill the Nimrod 14?” to discuss his latest article ( http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/05/399295.html).
Around 3,500 people read the discussion. Some users were sympathetic. 'Bakersfield', who appeared to be involved in MOD procurement himself, said "Really interesting history on BATES, which I knew nothing about. But I know it goes on and the thread title is the dead giveaway”.
However, the forum moderator angrily demanded that Rob prove his claims. He duly provided a lengthy list of references to Parliamentary answers and a National Audit Office report, including page and paragraph numbers. Immediately another user jumped in to dismiss this as “mere rumour and supposition”, while another published his name and address. “As I pointed out in my complaint”, says Rob “I don't mind giving my real name, but publishing my name AND address was clearly an attempt to intimidate me and a breech of the ARRSE rules”.
Rob says “It looked suspiciously like the forum moderator was using another identity to troll. Whether or not that was the case, ARRSE have shown which side they are on. Clearly, they do not have the interests of ordinary service personnel at heart. If they did, they would be outraged at the fact that the MOD and politicians were protecting companies accused of fraud. Instead they showed hostility to me for trying to expose this corruption”.
Rob was also criticized for posting his article to the Indymedia website, which one user denounced as “a bunch of commies”. “I pointed out that most ISPs and websites would remove material without a legal fight if they received a complaint . Indymedia however, has an honorable record of resisting censorship. My decision to post to Indymedia has been fully vindicated by the action of ARRSE in closing my account and removing the thread I started”.
Ends.
Extract from complaint to ARRSE site admin:
Unsworth and JustLoitering are guilty of the following breeches of the ARRSE standards laid out at http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/p=78709.html. (The full posts are listed at the end of this message). (Your link “Please click here for to see the ARRSE Complaints Policy and Procedures” doesn't work).
Posting Standards Applicable To All Boards, point b. “Use of real names.“
Unsworth attempted to intimidate me by giving my real world name and address.
JustLoitering's constant goading to identify my exact role on BATES is a not very subtle way of doing the same thing.
I actually don't mind giving my real name, but I do object to people trying to use blackmail and intimidation when they don't have any valid points to make.
Posting Standards for Serious boards, point c. “Non-contributory posting ie pointless ranting.“
Unsworth obliquely admits he hasn't even read the Hansard reference I gave. (If he had read it he wouldn't be asking for a URL. He'd either give a URL or quote the text). Yet he claims to be offering an 'expert interpretation' of it which conflicts with what I said.
JustLoitering dismissed the detailed series of references I gave (to a National Audit Office report and parliamentary answers) as “nothing but hearsay and supposition”.
R.A.McCartney
Comments
Hide the following 6 comments
ARRRSE
09.06.2008 15:19
Good place for advice on polishing combat boots though :)
anonymous
Folk who prefer to draft in the third person
10.06.2008 12:12
* Allan James Squires
* Steven Johnson
* Leigh Anthony Mitchelmore
* Gareth Rodney Nicholas
* Steven Swarbrick
* Gary Wayne Andrews
* Stephen Beattie
* Gerard Martin Bell
* Adrian Davies
* Benjamin James Knigh
* John Joseph Langton
* Gary Paul Quilliam
* Oliver Simon Dicketts
* Joseph David Windall
ARRSE has many threads concerning this loss of life:
* RAF Nimrod was 'never airworthy'
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=97278/highlight=nimrod.html
* 10 have quit' due to Nimrod safety
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=97403/highlight=nimrod.html
* Withdrawing Nimrod would hit fight against Taliban
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=97329/highlight=nimrod.html
* Afghan crash Nimrod should never have flown, RAF chief admit
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=96591/highlight=nimrod.html
* MoD 'Ignored Warnings On Nimrod'...
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=83745/highlight=nimrod.html
* New Safety Fears for RAF Nimrods
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=81820/highlight=nimrod.html
* RAF 'knew about Nimrod leaks before crash'
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=80721/highlight=nimrod.html
* Nimrod loss
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=45620/highlight=nimrod.html
* Fuel fault grounds RAF Nimrod fleet.
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=59223/highlight=nimrod.html
* RAF Crews Quit Over Unsafe Nimrod MR2
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=51682/highlight=nimrod.html
* RAF widow hits out at "cutbacks"
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=49114/highlight=nimrod.html
Sure there´s some trolls on ARRSE ... there´s trolls everywhere these days, isn´t there.
Can you post a link to your thread on ARRSE please Rob.
diamat
reply to diamat
11.06.2008 12:17
Around 3,500 people read my thread, some of them with obvious knowledge of the MOD procurement process.
- Not one person found a genuine flaw with the evidence that there is widespread fraud on contracts to develop equipment for Britain's armed forces.
- I gave precise references to Parliamentary answers by Sir Timothy Sainsbury, James Arbuthnot, and Lord Gilbert. The troll who admitted he hadn't read their answers was the only person who disputed the fact that they all lied to protect a company accused of fraud.
I write my Indymedia articles in the third person so I can put out the same material as press releases without re-editing it.
As I say in the final sentence of the article, ARRSE removed the thread I posted. However, if you do a Scroogle search for “Nimrod 14”, you can still see it listed at numbers 2 & 3.
Trolls are common. However, ARRSE admitted someone breeched their rules by publishing my name and address. I don't know of any other website which has refused to take action against someone who did this, and which actually penalised the victim by terminating their account and deleting their postings.
As far as I can see, the other threads you mention are just repeating things which have been widely reported in the corporate media.
R.A.McCartney
reply to Rob
12.06.2008 14:29
´Sir Raymond Lygo, former head of BAe, said it regularly used changes as an excuse to ratchet up the price of contracts and boost profits.´ -- I think this is true of all contractors now, and has been for a long time.
* ´As I say in the final sentence of the article, ARRSE removed the thread I posted´
Whoops, I missed that -- your final paragraph reads:
´Rob was also criticized for posting his article to the Indymedia website, which one user denounced as “a bunch of commies”. “I pointed out that most ISPs and websites would remove material without a legal fight if they received a complaint . Indymedia however, has an honorable record of resisting censorship. My decision to post to Indymedia has been fully vindicated by the action of ARRSE in closing my account and removing the thread I started”.´
Can I ask, to whom are you speaking, when you quote yourself speaking?
* ´As far as I can see, the other threads you mention are just repeating things which have been widely reported in the corporate media.´
Well they are and they aren´t, aren´t they. I think it is wrong to assume that just because a thread starts off by bringing something that has been widely reported elsewhere to the attention of a specific group, then that specific group can do nothing other than merely echo the initial report. Especially if that group has particular expertise in the field discussed.
I suppose what´s on my mind is this: I read ARRSE most days, as I do Indymedia and I took umbrage with the title and the tone of your article. It appears to me that you are suggesting that your thread on the Nimrod defines which ´truth´ needs to be discussed if ´the interests of ordinary service personnel´ are to be served and protected.
* You state: “It looked suspiciously like the forum moderator was using another identity to troll. Whether or not that was the case, ARRSE have shown which side they are on. Clearly, they do not have the interests of ordinary service personnel at heart. If they did, they would be outraged at the fact that the MOD and politicians were protecting companies accused of fraud. Instead they showed hostility to me for trying to expose this corruption”.
Everyone knows BAe is bent. It´s been echoed in the corporate media often enough. Everyone knows the gobment is bent; this is repeated often enough too, all over -- I read it on ARRSE I think more than any where else. Still, I don´t think the moderators on ARRSE showed you any real hostility. Remember the folk that run ARRSE have no doubt lost mates in active service, maybe some on that Nimrod. I suspect they were probably just gently nudging you along.
diamat
Final comment on diamat
21.06.2008 14:47
2. I said “ARRSE admitted someone breeched their rules by publishing my name and address. I don't know of any other website which has refused to take action against someone who did this, and which actually penalised the victim by terminating their account and deleting their postings. “
“diamat” said “I don´t think the moderators on ARRSE showed you any real hostility.”
3. “diamat” is repeating questions which have already been answered, and using them to try to make hostile implications which he lacks the courage (and evidence) to make openly.
I said “I write my Indymedia articles in the third person so I can put out the same material as press releases without re-editing it”. It is a basic rule for writing press releases that you write them in the third person and put some of your material in the form of quotes. I assume “diamat” knows this since the same name has been used to post notices to Indymedia on behalf of two organisations. Can I ask:
i) Why is “diamat” asking questions which have already been answered?
ii) What is “diamat” trying to imply when he refers to the fact that I post Indymedia articles in the third person, and when he asks why I put in quotes? How does following the normal rules for writing press releases support that implication?
R.A.McCartney
ARRSE - Shut the website down.
15.12.2015 17:20
Ian Foulkes
e-mail: blackdog661@gmx.co.uk