Antifascist welcomes Nazis to Leeds

nietzsche was right

28.04.2008 13:57

Unfortunately you've become that which you most hate. You have achieved a negative result.

normal_person

There are two choices with fascists.

Either we work hard to keep them weak at all times or we go easy on them and let them build up power using violence and intimidation like they did in the 20s and 30s.

For me the the occasional (though unfortunate) beating of a few delusional idiots is far preferable to the historically proven consequences of doing nothing.

antifascist

talking ballshite

28.04.2008 15:09

Sounds alright to me, better than tutting at them, or whatever you and Nietzsche would do in the same situation.

2 down, 20,000 to go!

Nietzsche was just another rich bitch

Normal?

28.04.2008 15:28

So what should we do? Just let them spew their hate? Then what else will they think they can get away with?

As a "normal" person might say; give them an inch...

Fuck Fascists

yeah maybe but I dont think so

28.04.2008 15:29

I don't know, your brave lads with ski masks who beat up a couple of drunks - I don't think thats going to educate anyone. For some little kid, who maybe doesn't really understand what fascism and racism are really about, and is trying to establish his own identity... what lesson would he be learning about antifascists? Say that little kid sees his brother coming home with a broken nose or whatever and is told that he was jumped by a "pack of lefties in ski masks".... what is he going to think? You've just made another enemy; congratulations.

OK I admit I never read Nietzsche, I just like the quote! It seems very apt.

normal_person

It's fairly obvious you've not read Nietzsche ;)

28.04.2008 16:55

Because he would probably have wholeheartedly advocated a good kicking of the Nazis. (Although that depends whether you caught him in the right mood, as he contradicts himself so often)

rogue

whos the coward?

28.04.2008 18:51

if they ever did get in to power i would take little consolation in 'normal persons' gassing or execution, yet again we here from the bleating middle class of us 'just being as bad as them' it begs the question at what point does it become ok for us to stand up for ourselves? at the point of election? the next Auschwits? it may not have been the greatest victory but ask yourself next time your shouting 'nazi scum off our streets' what impact that has? nothing is the answer. you are the negative result.

i know why i stand here

Education

28.04.2008 19:28

No one told those two 17year olds to attend a violent, racist and sick B & H gig did they? They chose to go, these little twats, if they had a bit of confidence in different times (say in the early 1990's) will be too happy to shove dog shit through the door of a family from pakistan, or to spit in the face of 3 year old black kids when out walking with their mothers - fuck 'em first or we'll get fucked.

It is very possible we will get a resurgence of street based nationalist activity by white gangs as the BNP become the "fourth party", let us not forgot that the BNP and all class-traitor nationalists/fascists DO NOT SEE the electoral strategy as the main strategy. They also have other means to maintain the locally built up power, wait until we see Stoke go BNP on May 1st (which is likely to happen) and the fucktard councils attempt to gain more power, protect racist gangs forcing non-white families out.

All I have to say is bring it on!

Antifa for life

Benson & Hedges

fuck 'em

28.04.2008 20:12

Interesting how the blood and dishonour muppets get all moral and high and mighty..., .you're fucking vermin and the lot of you deserve what ever gets dished out....maybe stop serving alcohol to minors and that way they'll be able to run away next time before the big bad antifa comes to get them, regards C.O.G

concerned of gipton

come on now b & h

28.04.2008 20:35

what are you playin at, pretendin to live a cause your grandads died against. and to whome it may concern your number up boyos, next time you come across the water to the land of windmills you'll have a greetin party.
you may not have shit on the euro fash,
but they dont have shit on us
remember that...

nn antifa

Good Work!

28.04.2008 21:05

Keep it up. The only good fash.....

Danski

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm .......

29.04.2008 01:48

Interesting hearing that the fascists are just as stupid as ever, did they not use to have pointy white hats to hide under ?!?!?!? and gang violence was their greatest achievement of white power picking on unsuspecting groups when they outnumbered them ..... huh ..... i???? sn't that how it went and still goes .....??????

Now, I'm not advocating it !!! but ........... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .........

Fight fire with fire ????

Isn't that what Bush says and has sent soldiers to die whilst sitting comfortably at home on the basis of such a philosophy ..... lefty liberals and fascists need to wake up and see who the enemy is and try run up on them in their gangs and see how their biggest gang handles them ..... !!!!

More bull about bull ..... there clearly are more serious matters now than the differences our races and cultures present to each other .... !!!!

Yawn .....

jim jones
Homepage: http://www.bigvirge.com

they are the enemy

29.04.2008 10:42

yes the BNP are the enemy. Our grandparents fought a war against people who believed their racist filth. But if we say we believe in stuff like fairness, tolerance of diversity and freedom to be different from some mythical 'average' British person - without having to live in fear of violence - it isn't going to convince anyone if we go around kicking peoples' heads in for not agreeing with us!

So when I read some of the macho comments here about using violence against these sad bunch of losers, it gets hard to see the difference between some of the militant lefties and the ultra-right wingers. I'd not want either in my house, they might become violent.

normal_person

racists deserve more than a few kickings

29.04.2008 12:35

The nazi scum are lucky they did not get stabbed to death - Good night white pride.

antifa berlin

While we're on the subject of age...

29.04.2008 14:36

We salute the following comrades:

Jan Kucera , aged 18 from the Czech Republic.
Murdered in Pibram, near Prague on 18 January 2008.

Jan was stabbed last Friday after confronting a knife wielding fascist who had pursued a group of his teenage friends following a clash in a pub between young anti fascist skinheads and a group of fascists who had taunted them with nazi salutes and slogans. The attacker stabbed Jan in the chest and back with a large military style knife, before fleeing the scene. Jan's distraught friends managed to stop the enormous bleeding from his chest until the ambulance arrived, but then tragically discovered he had been stabbed in the back as well.

Jan lost a lot of blood and even though he fought bravely for his life, he lost this final battle two days later. ??His favourite song was "Till the end of my life I'd be anti-fascist!" by Slovak Antifa band Rozpor, and until the tragic end of his young life that’s what Jan was, dying for his principles while defending his young teenage friends from an armed enemy and refusing to be bullied by murdering fascist scum Rest in peace, Jan.

Carlos Javier Palomino, aged just 16 from Spain.
Murdered in Madrid, on 12 November 2007.

A contemporary report stated:

An antifascist activist was stabbed in the heart when on his way to a demo in Madrid. A nazi group called Democracia Nacional had called for a demo against immigration in a popular neighborhood in town, where many foreign nationals live, mainly Latin American workers. This fascist act had been authorised by the local government, from the Conservative party. Another demo was called by antifascist groups to defend the area.
While on his way there, the comrade, only 16 years of age, together with some friends, spotted a guy sporting Nazi paraphernalia on the underground. When "called to attention", the bastard pulled out a knife, stabbed Carlos in the heart, and another antifascist militant in the lung, while trying to run out of the tube station. Carlos died, the other guy has been badly hurt, but doctors say he will live? The others in the group of antifascists chased the bastard, and beat him within an inch of his life, until the police arrived and attacked the antifascists. The nazi is (was) a service person, in the Spanish army. He is now in a critical condition in hospital, where I hope he will die soon? Also, a guy in the antifascist lot was hurt when police shot him in the eye with a rubber bullet.

Several days of rioting then occurred in Madrid. In London Carlos was commemorated with a moving event at the International Brigade Memorial on the Southbank on 24 November 2007.

Ilya Borodaenko aged 21 from Russia
Murdered at Angarsk, Siberia on 21 July 2007.

Ilya, from Nachodka, was attending an anti-nuclear protest camp when he and his fellow protestors were attacked at night by an armed gang of Nazis.

A member of the respected Russian Anarchist group Autonomous Action, he died from head injuries sustained during the attack.

Alexander Ryuchin aged 19 from Russia.
Murdered in Moscow on 16 April 2006.

Alexander was attacked on his way to the club “Planeta Lda”, where he was going to see the German punk band “Tackleberry”. He was approaching the club with his friend, when they were jumped by 6-8 Nazis. There was hardly any fight, Aleksandr was immediately stabbed to the heart and died before paramedics arrived 30 minutes later.

Timur Kacharava aged 20, from Russia
Murdered in St Petersburg, on 13th November 2005

A member of the punk/hardcore band "Sandinista!" and also a participant in Food Not Bombs, Timor was murdered by a group of about 10 Nazis after a Food not Bombs action in the centre of St. Petersburg.

In December 2005 anti-fascists in Rome renamed Paolo di Nella Boulevard (which was called after a fascist) Timur Kacharava Boulevard.

Rudeboy

You know waht these later posts are proving....?

29.04.2008 15:27

....proving that violence begets violence...cycle upon endless cycle of violence....just as was stated a while ago.

Q

Enough whinging condescension!

29.04.2008 16:39

Its a shame that these two lads put themselves in the position whereby they were likely to get a kicking. I've had the odd beating when i was 15/16 but then again i wasnt advocating white supremacism or fascism, i was simply drunk and have since learned lessons on how to conduct myself when enjoying a few beers.

May i suggest to the two lads who got done over that if they wish to stay clear of getting a whack in the future they take a long hard look at their chosen ideals and principles, they are old enough to know the history of fascism and the connoatations of white nationalism. Lets not patronise these lads by suggesting they were just innocent pawns in some nationalists fun and games, they know what they were involved in and i'm sure they are aware of the politics associated with it.

With regards the comments from the pious liberals about how militant antifascists are "just as bad a nazis" may i suggest that fascism is about more than just violence, its about an authoritarian anti-working class ideology that has as its finest acheievments the violent destruction of autonomous working class currents and the butchery of ethnic minorities. Standing up to fascists by using violence does not equate with fascism.

By youre logic are we to suppose that those who fought for the resistance in France were infact all Nazi's? We're those who organised against Nazi occupation in Poland actually anti-semitic, white supremacists? Were the 43 Group and those who fought Moseley's blackshirts on the streets of London fueled by racial prejudice? Were Durruti and Ascaso and all the other spanish anarchists just fighting Franco and the Falange because they believed the spanish peasantry and working class had taken too much power into their own hands?!

Fascism is a current that is forever present in the workings of capitalism, its like the plague, it can lie dorment for decades but its always there, waiting for the right condidtions to arise. The declining economy in Britain and the effect this will have on working class communities means that its likely the fash will find more fertile ground to sew its reactionary politics. Voting Labour isnt going to stop this lean to the right in terms of politics or economic policy, we obviously need a more grass roots, class based response to the rise of fascism and the attacks on conditions that are taking place in work places and communities, such a response needs to look at various tactics and in the case of fighting fascists i think violence is an acceptable recourse in certain instances.

BruisedShins

you have a point BUT

29.04.2008 16:48

...but the fash game is ALL about violence and intimidation. 100%. Always has been, always will be. They know no other. As you can see from the mentally subnormal fash morons on this thread, high-flown intellectual exchange ain't really their bag; In fact, words of more than 2 syllables make 'em sweat with the effort involved!
The left's game is NOT, fundamentally, about violence BUT the overwhelming weight of evidence and the bitter experience of history is that the ONLY way to respond to the fash scum, the only way that works, is to fight fire with fire, anf stamp on the vermin whenever it rears its' ugly head. appeasement and reasoning don't work.

@ Q

Gig

29.04.2008 19:00

So the bloody gig took place, why the fuck didn't you attack that instead on kicking a couple of bone heads which acheives FA.

Noddy

In response to TrueBritGirl

29.04.2008 21:24

TBG-As far as i'm aware antifa advocate physical opposition to fascists, people choose to be fascists, people do not choose their race or nationality. As far as i'm aware perpetuating backward or reactionary philosophies is not part of Antif'a's ideology.

As has been stated previously fascism is far more complex than simply the use of violence. Hence any analogies between a couple of fascists getting a kicking and the exploits of the third reich are juvenile at best.

BruisedShins

Thugs Inc

29.04.2008 21:37

These actions and this posting are calculated to incite violent reprisals and thereby a cycle of violence. This in turn is designed to give justification to further acts of violence. These actions and this posting are morally repugnant. It's like CND supporters praying for a nuclear war so they can say, "I told you so." This clique are trying to enact a self fulfilling prophecy. They care everything for their own particular agenda and nothing for the people they claim to champion, the same people who would be likely to bear the brunt of any reprisals. But not the vigilante in the ski mask, for this is a perpetrator, not a victim.

The NAZIs did not come to power because nobody stood up to them - there were pitched battles between fascists and communists and anarchists and socialists, etc, in Germany, and these guys were tooled up with weapons from the First World War, lots of them had fought in the "Great War," you know, guns, armoured cars, grenades, barricades, braziers, lynchings, nothing quiet or appeasing about it, and Germany nearly went the way of Spain, civil war, the whole caboodle. This destabilised the Weimar Republic, and helped massive inflation reach greater heights, which increased the level of acute poverty in the Republic. After years of chaos people voted for order, and what they got was the NAZIs. The NAZIs had been using the weakness of the Weimar Government against it and had been literally undermining the democratic institutions for years prior to seizing power. The rest is, as they say, history.

Civil strife does not benefit civilians. It benefits thugs, murderers, psychopaths, looters, rapists, and anyone else who tries to sew civil disharmony in order to fulfill their own political predilections.

Not in my name.

Full Stop

In reply...

29.04.2008 21:46

First, thanks for the constructive comments. That said I simply cannot advocate offensive violence. However, violence through self defense I do advocate. I do think there are some disingenuous comments that have been subsequently made, that conflate and group all right wing thought as fascism. As I've said before there are a great many BNP voters and activists that do not fit into the deffinitions of fascism offered here.

What such generalizing and prejudice comments do (i.e. to pre-judge) is encourage and force these right wingers, who are not fascists proper, into these identities..by this i mean the violent antifac offer up these subject positions and create self fulfilling prophecies. Offensive violence will just marginalize, polarize and actually give the fascists proper benefits...by this i mean the lite-right wingers whose opinions are always swinging, will be more inclined to....well.....

Again, as I've said before, the level of fascist support in the UK has declined not increased, and this is in part evidenced through the violent anti fac using arguments such as "but they could gain more support", "that these conditions (ecconomic and social) may lead to support"....but time and time again we see decreases in fascist support (by measure of voting numbers and looking at the membership lists of fascist groups). However, in other European countries such as Italy, it is a different story...but still no way comparable to nazi Germany.

There are far more effective ways to combat fascism than using violence, which is counter productive....and these means are far from passive. They involve subversion, infiltration dissimulation, framing, identity politics etc....its just that u need to know how to use these techniques for them to be successful and require adequate training; and yeah such techniques are what the UK Govs Intel and security forces deploy.

Personally my opinion is, and this is based upon research (i.e. document intel and human intel), quite a few of the antifac advocating violence have other agendas and histories of violence in other domains....and I think this is very important to acknowledge and sate for indymedia readers.

Q

RVF

29.04.2008 22:49

i agree with fuck em attack us all you like because we will do the same to you. we wont give or ask for any quarter this is a war so bring it on

but just to put you lot straight this little incident never happened we had people at the gig and there was no disruption of any kind so if you lot are going to claim your little victories fair enough just make sure its true

RVF

Full Stop, next sentence

30.04.2008 11:56

Full Stop-You talk of social harmony but when has this ever existed? We live in a society in which different interests are constantly at war, that is the nature of capitalism. Fascists sit firmly on the side of the establishment, the employers and hierarchy, their interests are diametrically opposed to those of an autonomous working class. This division isnt invented by anarchists or anti-fascists, it exists.

You're correct in your analysis of Germany, in that anarchists, socialists and fascists did fight one another, but that isnt to say that the tactic of confrontation was what resulted in Hitler coming to power, sure Hitler may have spun the conflict to fit his agenda but this doesnt mean that the anarchists were responsible for the rise of fascism in Germany. Do you think that if no one had opposed the fascists on the streets that they would never have got to power, that the fascists wouldve changed their minds about seizing power and persecuting large sections of the population?

To the other chap who mentioned the various ways of undermining fascist groups, i think it should be clear to all that physical confrontation is only a small part of anti-fascism and that it serves its purpose as part of a multi-faceted campaign.

BruisedShines

Just so long as they stick to the real fash, and not anyone who breaks dogma

01.05.2008 00:41

"Antifa do not advocate using the reigns of the state like "communist" groups do, so i dont see where you get this theory from."

Even within anarchist groups there are more than a few dogmatic nutters in their midst. Now I understand the need to take down the fash while they are still relatively weak but at the same time I find people that wish to appoint themselves judge, jury and executioner like "antifa berlin" a bit worrysome. In an ideal situation (which I know that this world isn't), no one should wind up being beaten up, but if it's a case of a the odd fash getting a physical dressing down by Antifa or the same fash going on to spout racist abuse (physical or verbal) unopposed I would have to go with the former.

not impressed

New Paragraph

02.05.2008 14:34

I would guess that social harmony is relative to the society within which it exists or doesn’t exist. I would equally guess that most people get on with their lives from day to day and are more concerned with earning a crust or keeping up with the Jones’ than with waging class or race war. How you interpret this is your concern, not theirs. Most people would probably complain about certain aspects of their lives, the weather, wages, the NHS, rising cost of oil, the weather, etc, but whether you would call this social disharmony? That there are pockets of deprivation which are nearly always linked to higher statistics for; effects of crime; substance dependency; family breakdown; truancy; lower age expectancy; higher infant mortality; unemployment &c, can be found in every borough of every town and city in the country. That those which have these characteristics and are of a predominantly “white,” “working class” ethnic strata are open to exploitation by organizations which try to blame such inequalities on other ethnicities (who frequently suffer from similar deprivation) is evidenced by local council elections and your own growing militancy. But even so, the vast majority of all people in all communities would prefer peaceful solutions to the sorts which are being advocated by the poster and supporters of violence. By dehumanising the “fascists” (which blanket term is itself an act of dehumanisation) you merely dehumanise yourselves. The difference between those who preach or succumb to racial hatred and those who do not is that we are measured by our actions, and our actions, like those of all the different ethos which oppose fascism (i.e. not just flag waving anarchists), must be demonstrably better than theirs, we become defined by our self respect, and when our actions mimic those of the very ideologies we oppose, then we open ourselves up to the kind of criticism which is becoming all too familiar here, and that criticism becomes justified. Are you in the game of giving justification and sympathy to these people?

The anarchists played their part in destabilising the Weimar Republic and must share the responsibility for the consequences of their actions. An awful lot more responsibility can be afforded to Stalin. The point is that the street violence and justification of it played right into the hands of the NAZIs, themselves the 20th Century’s embodiment of absolute violence.

Not in my name

Rock against racism but don't rock the boat baby

02.05.2008 18:16

"But even so, the vast majority of all people in all communities would prefer peaceful solutions to the sorts which are being advocated by the poster and supporters of violence."

I too favour peaceful solutions to our problems and everything i do to work towards meaningful social change is peaceful, however i recognise that if we do make significant gains towards working class autonomy then push will come to shove. Whether that is due to the states response to such autonomy or from the threat of fascists i know that inevitably there will come a point where we are faced with a reaction and we will be forced into a response. Violence is not a solution, it is a tactic that is part of a much more complex battle. Personally i'd agree with the slogan of the militant workers of the Butte mines "By any means necessary" and i think its best to utilise those means when your enemies are weaker than they may well be in a couple of years time.

"By dehumanising the “fascists” (which blanket term is itself an act of dehumanisation) you merely dehumanise yourselves."

haha, thats lovely, what should we call fascists then? Those with political deficencies? People of stunted political perspective? You can get names, addresses and collar sizes if you so wish. Go to the library in Stoke and you'll be able to get the details of all 9 of their councillors, then you can go and meet them over a cup of tea and personalise youre relationship so you know your enemy and don't feel so worried about "dehumanising" them. I am aware that fascists are people.

"when our actions mimic those of the very ideologies we oppose"

What like electoral politics? Rallies? Paper sales? Like i said fascism isnt defined by physical confrontation and neither is anarchism.

So anarchists were responsible for destablising the Weimar Republic. Personally i don't see this as a bad thing, i don't see popular fronts in alliance with capitalist parties as a solution to fascism, its like employing rats to stop a plague, fascism is inherently linked to the system of privelege and hierarchy that it supports and trying to fight fascism with those who prosper from this system is backward and ineffective.

BruisedShins

Those are chilling words, BruisedShins

03.05.2008 09:51

“By any means necessary.”

Which is a rewording of, “The end justifies the means.” Any means, method, or practice. Any atrocity or cruelty, any outrage or debasement, genocide (take Mao, Pol Pot), in your case working class autonomy, in theirs’ agrarian or whatever, so long as it furnishes the ultimate desired goal, whatever that might be. And anyone stands in the way, when push comes to shove, and what? We become what we oppose? Or we are victims of it. Will you check to see if people have calluses on their hands? Or coal dust under their finger nails? What do you mean by shove? Bullet? Gas? Precipice?

But this isn’t a scientific extrapolation, there is no certainty that the end, your end, will present itself according to whatever extraordinary means or tactics or blood baths you have justified. The Russian Communists thought they were building a workers’ utopia, but instead they got totalitarian madness, with the caste below, the peasants, paying the heaviest price. Do you have your pecking order in place? The sum result of terror is what? Terror? Fear? Pain? Is this re education? Does someone walk away thinking, “Oh, yeah, I really must mend my ways?” Else it’s a bullet in the brain?

Re; “fascists.” This thread is about two 17 year old skinheads who were or weren’t beaten up by someone triumphing anti fascism in a ski mask. Punches and kicks to the head. Not BNP councilors, although I would still argue against violence. As you say, these are people, which, as I recall, was one of the things which Holocaust survivors found it most difficult to come to terms with – their killers and persecutors weren’t monsters, they were people. They had families and children and jobs and hobbies, and they were killing people with families and children and jobs and hobbies. Like Rwanda. Like Kampuchea. Like Ireland. Like every single square inch of this planet where people have fought and murdered to protect or promote their version of reality. Maybe you’d like to justify your actions by proving that fascists have smaller cranial cavities and as such should be exterminated or sterilised. I’m not trying to be provocative here, only if you follow these things to their “natural” conclusions…

Violence in self defence is mitigated by the human condition – fight or flight, the rush of adrenalin, the slowing of time, the bio-survival circuit. Violence premeditated is unmitigated, predatory, and incompatible with any peaceful resolution.

Quote -“"when our actions mimic those of the very ideologies we oppose"

What like electoral politics? Rallies? Paper sales? Like i said fascism isnt defined by physical confrontation and neither is anarchism.” - unquote.

I think you know very well what I was talking about. Fascism is characterised by brutality, anarchism isn’t, so why would you support brutality as a means to combat brutality? Surely your superior palette of colours and intelligence should provide you with greater, more profound alternatives. Or is the justification of brutality just too easy, too exciting, too seductive, to avoid?

If you wish to achieve peace, then you use peaceful means. There are those occasions where peace ceases to be an option, but at those times, you are fighting for survival, and peace is no longer attainable. Perhaps you have decided that now is the eschatological equivalent of running for the hills.

As for your comment about Weimar – so, what, the Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, gays, homeless, alcoholics, prostitutes, disabled were fair game in the war against international capitalism?

I like your use of i.

Not in my name

Good Work, Well Done!

04.05.2008 20:41

Nice one. Keep up the good work, if getting a kicking makes these two idiots stop and think before they spout racist bollocks or attack someone because of the colour of their skins then all for the good.
I hate unnecersary violence but unfortunately with these twats it is necersary, asking the fash to "please stop being so horrid and ghastly you nasty little man" and waving yellow cardboard lollypops at them just doesn't work.
And to all the middle class liberal whingers on here, the next time you take part in an ANL march or whatever is this weeks "cutting edge of activism cause, actually yah," just remember, if it wasn't for people like Antifa et al putting their physical safety or liberty on the line you wouldn't be able to march, hold protests etc. without a load of boneheads kicking the crap out of YOU which they would be quite happy to do and no-one on their web sites would criticise them.

Again, well done to the man who got up off his arse and REALLY taught the nazi's a lesson, you sir, are a hero.

I hate the fash

Leeds AFA

05.05.2008 13:48

Leeds AFA can only muster a one man firm in opposition, when 300 plus 28 are in the area.

The aforesaid hero is to frightened to show his face...hence a balaclava, after two badly aimed kicks he ran off, so the face mask was to protect him from the drunk 16 year olds and not because he feared the police would chase him, two paltry kicks and flailing arms warrant a smile not a warrant.

Our lone, masked AFA hero with dubious kicking ability (could be a Leeds striker) let untold 28 walk past during the evening waiting for two drunk teenagers to prey on who wore no colours, were not skinheads in any way and no disrespect to them hardly looked threatening in any shape, form or angle, so they were handpicked because they presented a very easy victory, after a couple of free kicks and slaps no injuries were sustained..............this fella cant fight or is scared to let go for fear of retaliation.

Going by the reds version of events on their website, this fella could also be a journalist for one of our nationals, truth is obviously not in his repetoire, while exageration certainly is.

Leeds AFA are very fast runners! and new motto should be "AFA run out the area"

William B
mail e-mail: mailto:electionwatch@searchlightmagazine.com
Homepage: http://www.stopthebnp.org.uk/

Get it right...

05.05.2008 14:26

...I wish you lot would get your story straight.

First they were 17 and one ended up with a broke nose after a brutal, ruthless attack and there were 200 at the gig.

Then it didn't happen because the RVF had people there -which is strange because they're group consists of one person- and they didn't hear about it: again there were 200 at the gig.

And now it did happen but it was fuck all and there were 300+ at the gig.

Obviously maths and counter-propaganda are not the fash's strongest suits but then it would appear that neither is controlling the streets, something they have traditionally aspired to. After the routing they suffered a couple of weeks back in London and now this! Their pride must be hurting right now.

Anyway see you in the streets, ladies.

Rudeboy

By any means necessary

05.05.2008 16:12

And you think genocide IS a means of attaining working class sutonomy? Because as far as i'm aware it isn't!

I think you need to check the context of the remark and the political perspective in which it sits. Like i've said i agree that the vast majority of people would wish to avoid aggression, because it isnt fun! However i'm aware, as i think you are, that it will come down to violence and we will have to defend ourselves against such violence, my point is that if a movement is growing that will inevitably use violence and coercion against you when their power grows it better to confront them while they perhaps arent powerful enough to enact that oppression.

I've no idea what your remark about Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals getting slaughtered by the nazi's is supposed to imply.

BruisedShins

17?

05.05.2008 16:52

And where does the gem of information that these 2 Neo-Nazis were 17 come from? From the fascists themselves! As if these scum don't have a history of telling exactly these type of lies. I was surprised to hear one of them wasn't carrying a young child or only had one arm! Yet, there are always fascist apologists and collaboators lining up to back up the fascists' lies on Indymedia threads such as this. Well done to this antifascist.

Dr Green

Face Off

05.05.2008 23:42

Please can the thugs find a secluded spot away from the rest of the population and quietly annihilate each other. That way the rest of us can work out how to solve the problems which are innate to human cohabitation. This is no disrespect to the thugs, and we recognise that they need to express themselves in their own peculiar fashion. Only we the people are not interested in war. That said, if you were to televise such a spectacle, we could all have a bit of a flutter and make it an annual social event. You obviously have too much hormonal dogma for you to cope with individually, so we respectfully request that you therapeutically take it out on adversaries of a like mind, and please spare us the collateral damage. Because we have lives to live, not time to kill.

Not in my name

"Not in my back yard"

06.05.2008 08:34

If you really have a ‘life’ to lead NIMN, where you are conveniently unaffected by fascism, why don’t you stick your head back in the sand and get on with it, instead of constantly trolling these threads on Indymedia, and smearing and defaming those of us who are affected by fascist violence and choose to defend ourselves against it?

Anti

FAO Not in my name

06.05.2008 09:53

It looks to me from your last stupid comment, and I think it is very clear for all readers to see, that you have been outargued and have nothing constructive to say. BruisedShins and others put their argument well. You on the other hand have just rersported to what amounts to silly name calling. Shame on you whoever you are.

Leeds anti-racist

"not in my name"?

06.05.2008 10:21

I doubt that this action was carried out in YOUR name mate!

Who'd want to call an anti-fascist action Nigel?!

LOL!

LOL

Turn it in.

06.05.2008 10:47

Right then 'Not In My Name'. By your logic the heroes of the Warsaw ghetto who rose up against their Nazi oppressors were thugs, incapable of rational peaceful human interaction and they deserved to die fighting because that was the choice they made.

Rebellious slaves who fought against the plantation owners and the colonial powers that kept them in brutal bondage also deserved the annihilation brought upon them. These savage brutes were obviously not advanced enough to be able to negotiate a compromise.

Violence never happens in a vacum and it is never a neutral force. If somebody attacks you for no reason fighting back does not make you as bad as they are. Where history has taught you that certain behaviours and threats will lead to unspeakable horrors being committed against you and your community then pre-emptive action is justified.

Being squemish about fighting is understandable. Fear infects us all and we are all conditioned to avoid confrontation at any cost, but if you want the freedom to live your life unmolested, co-operatively and peacefully you will have to accept that sometimes you will need to fight. Otherwise you will not only live on your knees, you may die on them too.

Rudeboy

I forgot to add...

06.05.2008 10:54

...that if you've never had to fight, then you are almost certainly in a position of privilege which is afforded you by the oppression of others through violence.

You are going to have a difficult job working out the worlds' problems stuck in the ivory tower. of some cliquey, lifestylist sect.

Rudeboy

Big up!

06.05.2008 14:51

Good post Rudey!

ThumbsUp

non local hidden variables

07.05.2008 01:40

It is just a general sadness. You seek to justify violence, not equality. That all this effort and committment is geared towards such pointless ends. Beating up kids in Armley. But the good side is that you fulfill your part in the diversity of opinion. The world needs debate, and you sort of do your part, like the USA argues on the one hand that the world began 50,000 years ago whilst shooting missiles into comets and collecting dust in fibre gels to work out how the universe began. It's just a debate. If only you could turn the destructive into the productive. Then we'd be cooking.

You are not slaves and you don't live in eighteenth century Haiti and you know shit about vodoun.

Not in my name

Not on my nelly

07.05.2008 08:54

Another intelligent post from Indymedia's resident gobshite 'not in my name'? More patronising guff frankly. Why don't you just keep quiet since you have nothing to say? Do you really think anti-fascists need your approval?

Not so green

Not a slave...

07.05.2008 09:18

...and never f*^king will be.

Rudeboy

Turn it in!

07.05.2008 18:53

Turn it in, "not in my name" you gibbering space-cadet.

Yawn

Hello team!

08.05.2008 08:01

:)

Well I, as you might imagine, agree with much 'not in my name' says. Just for the record, the direct insults at 'not in my name' occurred prior to any 'name calling' by 'not in my name'. Even then 'not in my name's' comments are not directed insults unlike some of those posted by those advocating violence.

I therefore ask the mods, in keeping with their stated explanations for deleting other posts against the use of violence on the email list, to delete those posts directly attacking and insulting 'not in my name'.

Q

Seven Steps to Designer Militancy

09.05.2008 18:27

1. Establish yourself, your group and your cause away from any previous causes you might have fought for, although retaining broadly the same methods and ideologies from such previous causes – remember you can always revert, not a bad thing if you’re trying to keep the spooks off your trail! A good example would be to transfer from militant radical animal liberation or anti abortion, say, where you justify the killing of people in order to protect animals or foetuses, to, say, for arguments’ sake, radical militant anti fascism, where you justify killing people in order to protect ethnic minorities. This is so that you can continue to behave as you choose whilst hiding behind the mantle of otherwise potentially high ideals.

2. Associate your group’s position with historical struggles in which people genuinely were obliged to kill people, and often sacrificed their own lives, in order to protect their communities/families, etc from Tyranny. These associations need bear no resemblance to your own circumstances, where the likelihood of death by falling over whilst putting your socks on in the morning and hitting your head is much greater than the actual risk of ever being on the receiving end of a death squad. In fact, the more implausible your associations are, the more you can congratulate yourself on your continuation of whatever struggle it was that the poor bastards were fighting for in the first place.

3. Alienate and attack all proponents of otherwise high ideals. Since you never shared anything in common with them in the first place (except oxygen, and that’s debatable, those anaerobic lizard bastards!), this should not be too difficult, though do be careful to suppress and outlaw any hint of human empathy or warmth – this is just bourgeois sentiment, after all. Also beware of engaging in genuine discussion or argument, as this can lead to confusion and counter revolutionary thought. Remember, you are absolutely right at absolutely all times, and anyone who disagrees with you is an asshole who deserves to be killed at the next opportunity. And tell them so!

4. Make your goal as impossible and irrational and unachievable as possible – as Hitler proved, if you are truly to convince the population you are serious, you need a cause which is truly outlandish. Good historical examples include – Agrarian Utopia; Worker’s Paradise; the Third Reich; Working Class Autonomy (in a service sector country!); People’s Ownership (whether they want it or not) in the careful Stewarding Hands of the People’s Representatives (not to be confused with democracy); White Supremacy; this is a field of research which is seemingly never likely to be exhausted, so be inventive with your ideas.

5. Disassociate your group from all other groups - they might get in the way of your master plan. Propaganda is a necessary weapon in the war to end all wars, so use it unwisely. Feel free to accuse everyone and everything of being collaborators, traitors, double agents, liberals, snitchers, back stabbers, splitters, stooges, spooks, anything you like, because they won’t be able to prove otherwise, and if they can prove otherwise then the evidence was probably fabricated by secret services. Basically, if they float they’re guilty, and if they drown they’re also guilty.

6. Pretend that you are not alone against the world. Pretend that really everybody (except the bastards you plan to kill) are on your side, they just don’t know it yet. Once they understand who you really are, they will build statues of you and name streets after you and proclaim your infinite perfection. At the same time, make sure you and your buddies pretend that there are lots of you who ALL feel EXACTLY the same way about EVERY single issue EVER. A good way to do this would be to learn every page of “Society of the Spectacle” and test each other regularly. A good way to do this is if someone reads a passage from “Society of the Spectacle” and you all have to guess what page it’s on. You can even award each other comrade points, or use special little sticky stars to see how far you’ve progressed up Mazlow’s Hierarchy of Needs! You see? Who said revolution wasn’t fun!

7. Information/communication is everything, so make sure you control the means of production. The last thing you want is an even debate to debunk your solipsistic strategies. No! Information is power, and you need cadres who are willing to help manipulate the debate in accordance with your group’s dogmatic litany. This can be done very slyly, especially through the use of otherwise freedom minded channels – hah! Freedom, that succour to distortion! Yes, yes, and the Internet, the Freedom Highway, where you can retain your anonymity whilst subverting from a distance. Yes, yes, it doesn’t even have to be your own city or your own county, you can just pretend! Say, Yorkshire, yes, yes, just like the Normans and Henry VIII and Baldwin and Thatcher, those gritty northern weasel wafters are always up for a bit of scorched earth domination! Yes, yes, rub your hands with glee as the next Reich comes marching into town! Yes, yes, skip in the blood of the traitors! Autonomy will be ours!!!

Harlequinade

Come again...

10.05.2008 15:18

...your post makes very little sense Harlequin. It would be much better if you just put your point across in a straight forward, concise and accessible statement. As it is your rant may make wonderful witty sense to you but for most of us, we're struggling to understand what it is you're alluding to.

One point I will pick up on is that Fascism does not start in the gas chambers, that is it's conclusion. If more people took the limited measures required to secure themselves against future tyrannies i.e some low level street fighting, targeted assaults on points of fascist organising, then fewer people would find themselves in a position where they had to sacrifice their life to defend their community.

You get me?

Rudeboy

Vive la revolution!

13.05.2008 11:03

Never found tackling the symptoms provided much of a cure myself. But then, cures require much more effort, hard work, committment and risk than a walk in the dark. They don't give you quite the same adrenalin rush either, and presumably a sense of fulfillment is also classed as bourgeois. Yeah, street fighting and vandalism, something to really tell the kids about, eh? Just what our shattered communities need. Hey, we could put up road blocks, too. You know, where exactly do you go with this? It's the same with Bruised Shins - street fighting created the circumstances in which the NAZIs were able to take power. You dig?

BTW whatever opinions we may differ on, I am surprised at the willingness of posters, especially the more erudite ones, to accept the manipulation of these pages by people who clearly do NOT share the values extended within the IMCUK Guidelines. It is a frightening fact that we are seeing a tool designed to give freedom is becoming more and more a tool of propaganda. And anyone fighting fascism in any way should find this a highly alarming development.

Harlequinade

I've made this point before...

14.05.2008 11:40

...but if you think that everyone involved in militant anti-fascism isn't also involved in progressive community based politics and initiatives you are clearly not very active in those things yourself. The two tactics are not mutually exclusive.

This is taken from the Antifa founding statement which you obviously haven't read:

THE WIDER STRUGGLE

Eliminating the threat of fascism will not magically correct all the wrongs of the world. The first stage of real lasting social improvement begins with the downfall of global capitalism and its replacement with an alternative that puts working class people in control of their own lives. Members of Antifa are involved in a wide variety of other anti-capitalist struggles, but Antifa itself remains focussed on the fight against fascism, which we believe is linked to the wider struggle. The State will employ fascist tactics if necessary in the cause of suppressing dissent, and the fight against openly fascist ideology, wherever it comes from, is a critical part of the fight against the ultimate enemy of capitalism itself.

COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT

Fascism can be suppressed by the use of street-level tactics against their attempts to publicly organise. The fascists electoral ambitions can be defeated by the use of counter-propaganda. But a meaningful impact on fascism requires far more than this. We believe that involvement in local communities is critical (and this does not mean parachuting in as outsiders, but people taking action in their own communities.) Education and presenting workable solutions to the problems faced by communities are absolutely vital to the struggle. These may be outside the current remit of Antifa, but we will wholeheartedly support these tactics, and while we may not be able to initiate such activities, we strongly encourage our members to involve themselves in this sort of grass-roots work.

Rudeboy

bollox

14.05.2008 19:58

What a load of shit, you coward gave 2 kids a couple of kicks, these kids were pissed as a newt, they couldn't stand, they was given 2 kicks then the twat ran off,

Why didn't you come to the gig, you knew were we was, the only thing hurt on the 2 kids was there pride..

If I or the ASF would have seen the coward doing that I would have battered the twat, and what was that you said, if the ASF or the RVF, step foot off the MANCHESTER train last Sat, there will be 35 ANTI'S waiting for us, lol, well we went and you wasn't there..

I'm going now as I feel slightly frightened by you aggressive kb ANTI's lol..

GOOD NIGHT LEFT SIDE..

WIGANMIKE

Follow this thread...

15.05.2008 16:19

...

http://indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/leedsbradford/2008/05/398818.html

It should answer your queries Wigan Mike

Rudeboy

Hi Rudeboy

17.05.2008 09:43

"This is taken from the Antifa founding statement which you obviously haven't read:"

It's true, I haven't,well, I have now.

THE WIDER STRUGGLE

"Eliminating the threat of fascism will not magically correct all the wrongs of the world."

Would it be wrong to say that if we were to correct the wrongs of the world we would de facto eliminate fascism? Given that fascism has very clear pathways which emanate from combination of isolation, deprivation and ignorance? i.e. cut out the middle man, i.e. isolation, deprivation, ignorance. Also fascism works in the Middle Eastern, Russo European paradigm, but a global strategy against prejudice, discrimination, genocide, oppression would need either to extend the concept of fascism or accept the different kinds of oppression with all their local flavours and customs.

"The first stage of real lasting social improvement begins with the downfall of global capitalism"

The downfall of global capitalism would presumably mean a breakdown in resource distribution and a significant period of social disintegration; maybe a transition would be better? I know there's lots wrong with wealth distribution in particular, and some parts, peoples and communities of the world are criminally neglected, but there are lots of things which are a marked improvement on, say the nineteenth century - life expectancy, child mortality, etc. No sense chucking the baby out with the bath water, eh?

"and its replacement with an alternative that puts working class people in control of their own lives."

Replacing one class with another? I think Freire has it right, that we must ultimately feel compassion towards our oppressors if we are to ever free ourselves, that we have a responsibility toward them as much as they do to us, and I'm not talking some mad totalitarian reeducation program, here, but working class? What about peasants and farmers? And homeless and disabled? And children? And alcoholics and drug addicts? Autism? Bi polarity? Criminals? Unemployed? What about teachers and doctors (traditionally middle class) and ALL of the other constituent parts which make up society? Maybe, just maybe some of these older ideologies, whilst encapsulating really good, strong principles, are nonetheless, at least in their wording, slightly outdated? 'Refer to a different world to the one we live in? I don't think there are that many supporter survivors of Year Zero.

"Members of Antifa are involved in a wide variety of other anti-capitalist struggles, but Antifa itself remains focussed on the fight against fascism, which we believe is linked to the wider struggle. The State will employ fascist tactics if necessary in the cause of suppressing dissent, and the fight against openly fascist ideology, wherever it comes from, is a critical part of the fight against the ultimate enemy of capitalism itself."

Yeah, totally, but a lot of what's been going on here, with the violence, the goading and the baiting, the name shaming... I just don't get it. You obviously are motivated and involved so why stoop to these levels? They're beneath you, and you surrender the moral high ground at the same time. I don't get it.

COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT

"Fascism can be suppressed by the use of street-level tactics against their attempts to publicly organise. The fascists electoral ambitions can be defeated by the use of counter-propaganda."

Again, absolutely, or, hang on, counter propaganda? Wouldn't it be better just to tell the truth? I mean, propaganda, by definition, is only at best half truths. And street level tactics? Does brawling and mugging count as a tactic? Is there nothing else in the bag? And if there is, then why has the whole emphasis of these pages for the last six months been on brawling and mugging, and baiting and goading, and name shaming and... why?

"But a meaningful impact on fascism requires far more than this. We believe that involvement in local communities is critical (and this does not mean parachuting in as outsiders, but people taking action in their own communities.) Education and presenting workable solutions to the problems faced by communities are absolutely vital to the struggle. These may be outside the current remit of Antifa, but we will wholeheartedly support these tactics, and while we may not be able to initiate such activities, we strongly encourage our members to involve themselves in this sort of grass-roots work."

Why isn't this statement the basis of your activities? This is the basis of the struggle. This is how you build. What is this other stuff going on when you know what the solution is? Yeah, OK, we don't want to parachute "experts" in to designate ridiculous lump sums from Urban or NRF. But integration and cohesion require that "outsiders" are able to move between communities and that those communities not only are not threatened by "outsiders" but that they are positively strengthened by them. Alright, so that's the toughy, that's the million dollar question, how do you go about solving the problems of isolation, deprivation and ignorance. But anytime anybody mentions anything along these lines and they get slammed down by a bunch of people whose sole stated commitment seems to be towards... brawling, mugging, baiting, goading, name shaming... This is a pattern, which has seen attempt after attempt at debate, discussion, discourse, dialogue consigned to the rubbish bin in favour of mob tactics. And whilst on the one hand there are people who feel strongly that these tactics are justified, they are surely able to see why so many people find those tactics unacceptable.

I think Antifa should be initiating activities which present workable solutions to the problems faced by communities. No doubt someone will then form Real Antifa or something, but that's the choice you make, innit? Popular appeal or Radical Ghetto?

Ya Basta

Harlequinade

ans my question?

18.05.2008 23:18

No it didn't as it wouldn't let me post, then deleted my previous one

WIGANMIKE