I doubt if you were called a 'c*unt* simply because you yourself use the sexist insult of 'tw*t' and I imagine this is just you using your own language as a misquote, through a haze of incoherent gutter rage. This sounds very much like the misogynistic gutter 'journalism' of Class War, which continues to paint any sensible criticism of STW into a corner of sexist, low grade insults.

Really is disparing how utterly crude, incoherent, and ranting any necessary criticism of STW and the anti-war movement is. Makes STW look more like they were trying very hard to deal with an abusive and threatening drunk, which is how anarchists often come across anyway, thanks to the infantile gutter legacy of Class War anarchism.

More comment on the desperate nature of this 'article':
 http://bristol.indymedia.org/article/687991

Wow, so saying that women's rights are a "shibboleth" and hanging out with hard core Islamic fundies isn't mysogenist, but using harsh language when you are protesting the inclusion of militarists in an anti-war meeting - ALONE and under great stress, I might add, is?

What kind of twisted doublethink is this? Have you read 1984, by George Orwell? If so, I think you should know that it's not meant as an instruction manual.

Handing out deception notes?

As you correctly point out Andrew, you were alone, you are a minority of 1. You might have just about scraped being a minority of 2, but then Bristol Blogger who called the protest was far too much of a coward to turn up, and left you hanging out to dry (which unfortunately you apparently were not, and indeed appeared quite soaked).

Anyone who so much as thinks of resisting the Establishment Oligarchy in Britain the US and Israel and our hatred for nasty dark-skins with their homes on the oil we need will be targeted by my well financed professional team of goons and clowns. Remember if you believe in free speech fools you must let us disrupt your meetings. HaHa! Since MI5 are now friends of the Oilygarchs we can operate in Britain with impunity.

As anyone who has studied fascism will know - thanks to our friends at the Evening Post for also calling for this nasty terrorist head on a platter - for all his talk of peace if you listen between the words you know he is a facist.

Believe me or you will be a terrorist soon! Anyone who does not bow his head in the face of the Israeli guns is an anti-Semite and a Hitler lover. It's obvious to me.

whilst people might disagree with "sexist" insults like 'twat' (is 'cock' a sexist insult? or does that not figure in SWP-PC policy?) i still see no reason to argue ad-hominum to discredit the facts:

HEZBOLLAH ARE MILITANT ISLAMISTS.

they hate gay people, women and jews. And pretty much anyone else who doesnt figure in their warped little minds.

Why on earth do the Swappies wanna share a platform with this guy? And, worse yet, why is a man who propagates such hate more free to speak at an STWC event than someone challenging such hate?

What is the motivation behind inviting someone like that to speak, and glorifying their position?

Say what you want about Class War, but at least they dont put on events that glorify Fascism and/or Religious Fundamentalism (im not prepared to get into a debate about which category Hezbollah fall into, but i'd be more inclined to say the latter)

The SWP are a fucking joke.

...ooops, sorry! i SWORE! guess that makes this "gutter jounalism" and thus discredits my whole argument. My career at Socialist Worker is ruined!

2pm israeli embassy 15th march

no organisation required

What is ruined is any credibility your counter arguments may contain, because no-one except fellow anarchists stuck in the ranting, sneering sex pistols mould of the 1970's are going to pay much attention to it in this form. And your knee jerk belief that anyone who criticises you must be in the SWP, makes you look very divisive and sectarian, which isn't going to do anything for your desire to see an inclusive alternative to STW, when you come across as a narrow, dying rump of a long dead breed of sneering anarchist who hates everyone except those already in their ranting splinter group.

"BOTH sides fired on civilians and BOTH commited war crimes so why does the swp continually talk about it as a one sided affair? one other thing i find funny is that swp didnt even think of calling a demo when Lebanese govt troops invaded and attacked a palastinian refugee camp last year, funny that there wasnt any outcry from the left, i didnt even hear about it on indymedia even though there are over 10 posts every time israel commits a war crime against the Palestinians." - (A)

Hezbollah fired 113 cluster bombs after Israel began firing over 4 million. That is like if I punched you 40,000 times and you landed one punch on me in the middle of that. You never explained yet how that was two-sided - you want to explain that now ?

And here are some IM links about the camp you were so concerend for that you couldn't remember it's name.

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/05/371686.html
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/world/2007/05/371910.html


"HEZBOLLAH ARE MILITANT ISLAMISTS."- (A)

They are a popular resitance movement born out the Israeli invasion and occupation of Lebanon from 1982. Even the EU don't even label them as a terrorist group, only 3 countries apart from Israel, the US and the UK do.


"And, worse yet, why is a man who propagates such hate more free to speak at an STWC event than someone challenging such hate?"

You were also challenged to provide one anti-semitic or racist quote from this guy, but I'll open that out to anything hateful that he has said. So where is your proof of your allegations ?

What about the output from his TV station?

 http://www.adl.org/special_reports/protocols/protocols_plot2.asp

Apparently Hezbollah TV have showed this crap - is he still Not Racist?

Oh, and has anyone asked him if he's ever done the Nazi salute yet?

"What about the output from his TV station? Apparently Hezbollah TV have showed this crap - is he still Not Racist?"

He claims not to be and you haven't been able to find one quote or one fact about him that proves otherwise, I'm sure not for the lack of trying.

"Oh, and has anyone asked him if he's ever done the Nazi salute yet?"

If I could attend I'd ask him for you but why don't you go along and ask him yourself ? Military men salute and he isn't a military man. Apart from using the roman salute the Nazis also wore trousers, certainly in every photo I've seen, so we should be able to identify fascists by their clothes. Do you wear trousers Andrew or do you think that is crap logic ?

So how do we identify fascists if not by their trousers and other such shit ? Well, any militaristic, ruthless, right-wing, racially pure state has to be a candidate, especially one that launches weapons of mass destruction against relatively unarmed neighbours. Does that make you think of Hezb'allah - cos it makes me think of Israel.

firstly, I am not Andrew, so there has been a little confusion there....

secondly, i dont normally bother with reiterating my points in dead internet conversations, but i think this is pretty important given how "hot" this topic is.

in response to something someone else said, Danny claimed that:

"Hezbollah fired 113 cluster bombs after Israel began firing over 4 million. That is like if I punched you 40,000 times and you landed one punch on me in the middle of that. You never explained yet how that was two-sided - you want to explain that now ?"

...would you still be happy that said person landed an extra punch on you after already recieving 40,000? and would you be particularly happy that the person who twatted you was being praised by a group of people on the other side of the world who claim to be mobilising for "peace" in your situation? (whatever the fuck thats meant to mean anyway, vague emotive term that it is...)

"They are a popular resitance movement born out the Israeli invasion and occupation of Lebanon from 1982. Even the EU don't even label them as a terrorist group, only 3 countries apart from Israel, the US and the UK do."

...you can still be a militant islamist and not be a terrorist group. Im not claiming that they are terrorists or even that being labelled a terrorist immediately discredits the entirity of your political philosophy or its relevance, however i dont think being labelled a "popular resistance fighter" immediately offers legitimacy/relevance to your political philosophy or experiences either. To polarise it is once again one of the vulgar simplifications that the trotskyist left offers. Pro-Palestine, Anti-~Israel, War, Peace, Terror, Freedom Fighter, whatever - you either with us or against us, there is no room for debate, eh?

"You were also challenged to provide one anti-semitic or racist quote from this guy, but I'll open that out to anything hateful that he has said. So where is your proof of your allegations ?"

I dont need to go fishing for quotes to know that an armed group that is motivated by a desire for an islamic society based on shar'iah law is going to be homophobic and sexist - in the same way that if there was a group of "Christian Freedom Fighters" (heaven forbid! ;-] ) they would stand for the same thing. Just because its on the other side of the world, it doesnt negate the fact that they are essentially anti-working class due to their bigotries. Divide and conquer, comrade!

Also, what people dont know is that there is also a Communist resistance in Lebanon. Why dont the SWP use their broad base of support to drum up support for the left resistance? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the left in Lebanon has capitulated with the Islamists too...

Maybe we should look to the Iranian Revolution for some guidance on this issue....

 http://libcom.org/history/1978-1979-the-iranian-revolution

However we dress this issue up, making huge compromises to our personal politics (acceptance of homophobia, sexism) will never make any difference to the situation of the people in Lebanon, or ourselves. We can show solidarity, yeah - of course i dont support whats happening to workers in these countries, or any country for that matter. But to pretend the international working class will be progressed by cheering on religious bigotry is fallacious. Not only do we stop focusing on our domestic, immediate and material struggles by making focus on the middle-east the sum total of our politics in practice but we make it difficult to realise global revolution by adding credibility to our numerous class enemies.

And look! ive just wasted yet more of my precious time engaging in this incredibly removed and passive debacle. Whilst the STWC and SWP have been known to be infiltrated and steered by the MI5/6 in the past (as all incredibly heirarchical organisations tend to be) i dont know - or particularly care - if this is the result of an approach that has been guided by the government(s). However, the fact still remains that this is leading a large part of potentially militant people down blind alleys and into the realms of ineffectivity. Whether its Gordon Brown or Lindsey German that is instigating this, makes no difference to me. Its still utter bullshit.

We have too much stuff in common to let abstractions like this become the focus of our differences. The only thing that will truly liberate us globally is destroying government and capitalism.

"...would you still be happy that said person landed an extra punch on you after already recieving 40,000? and would you be particularly happy that the person who twatted you was being praised by a group of people on the other side of the world who claim to be mobilising for "peace" in your situation? "

If I had punched someone 40,000 times and they had landed only one punch on me then I would be quite happy with people criticising me. I would expect criticism, or even somebody stronger than me intervening in what is effectively sustained brutality - what I would not expect is someone to claim my attack was a two-sided or proportionate affair, or that my victim is as much to blame as I am.

"...you can still be a militant islamist and not be a terrorist group. Im not claiming that they are terrorists or even that being labelled a terrorist immediately discredits the entirity of your political philosophy or its relevance, however i dont think being labelled a "popular resistance fighter" immediately offers legitimacy/relevance to your political philosophy or experiences either. To polarise it is once again one of the vulgar simplifications that the trotskyist left offers. Pro-Palestine, Anti-~Israel, War, Peace, Terror, Freedom Fighter, whatever - you either with us or against us, there is no room for debate, eh?"

No, I'm all for debate, it is you and Andrew who want to deny Moussawi the chance to debate.

"I dont need to go fishing for quotes to know that an armed group that is motivated by a desire for an islamic society based on shar'iah law is going to be homophobic and sexist - in the same way that if there was a group of "Christian Freedom Fighters" (heaven forbid! ;-] ) they would stand for the same thing. Just because its on the other side of the world, it doesnt negate the fact that they are essentially anti-working class due to their bigotries."

Heaven forbid ? There are Christian militias in Lebanon. And most Christians and Sunni in Lebanon support Hezbollahs resistance. If all your family have just been killed, your town shelled to oblivion and foriegn troops are ripping through your country then you aren't necessarily going to support the most intellectually appealing political group. You will support whoever stops the fascistic aggression.

"Also, what people dont know is that there is also a Communist resistance in Lebanon. Why dont the SWP use their broad base of support to drum up support for the left resistance? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the left in Lebanon has capitulated with the Islamists too..."

Like I said, they are a resistance movement popular beyond their own religious demographics. By saying Moussawi should be 'no-platformed' you are saying that most Lebanese should be 'no-platformed' - and that is wrong. Sure, it would have been nice to have an Israeli on the platform too. I would have loved to hear someone from 'Peace Now' explain why they didn't oppose the Israeli invasion until after a week or two. I am curious which particular atrocity led them to realise this is a war and remind them that they are a peace group.

"Maybe we should look to the Iranian Revolution for some guidance on this issue....
 http://libcom.org/history/1978-1979-the-iranian-revolution"

Oh, I know about the Iranian revolution without looking at a SWP front site like LibCom. What is your point about it - and why on earth would you link there if you don't like the SWP ?

"However we dress this issue up, making huge compromises to our personal politics (acceptance of homophobia, sexism) will never make any difference to the situation of the people in Lebanon, or ourselves. We can show solidarity, yeah - of course i dont support whats happening to workers in these countries, or any country for that matter. But to pretend the international working class will be progressed by cheering on religious bigotry is fallacious. Not only do we stop focusing on our domestic, immediate and material struggles by making focus on the middle-east the sum total of our politics in practice but we make it difficult to realise global revolution by adding credibility to our numerous class enemies."

I disagree. I know a young guy who is homophobic, simply due to his ignorance and lack of life experience. Given time I'll talk him out of that. If I saw him being beaten up by soldiers in the street I'd still intervene, and that wouldn't in the slightest mean I'd be accepting his homophobia.

I've fought alongside muslims in the streets of my local town not out of respect for their faith but out of respect for their right to walk down the street safely. Lots of us acted against the local war-corporations during the Israeli invasion. Many other people here have taken far greater risks and travelled to Palestine on their own or with groups like ISM. So paying attention to the middle-east doesn't diminish local activity. Thinking globally and acting locally helps local groups quickly share skills worldwide.

Most of your objections to Moussawi are western judgements that apply to all islamic people or groups and so are at best irrelevant ( if you were a gay in Southern Lebanon would you really want the Israelis to bomb your village ? ) and also potentially racist. Why are we allowed to protest the US and UK occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq and yet we shouldn't have protested the Israeli occupation of Lebanon ?

"And look! ive just wasted yet more of my precious time engaging in this incredibly removed and passive debacle."

You could've taken a bit more time at the start and we could've gotten this over with quicker.

"Whilst the STWC and SWP have been known to be infiltrated and steered by the MI5/6 in the past (as all incredibly heirarchical organisations tend to be) i dont know - or particularly care - if this is the result of an approach that has been guided by the government(s). However, the fact still remains that this is leading a large part of potentially militant people down blind alleys and into the realms of ineffectivity. Whether its Gordon Brown or Lindsey German that is instigating this, makes no difference to me. Its still utter bullshit."

We get infiltrated too, both by directly the state and by groups like the SWP.

"We have too much stuff in common to let abstractions like this become the focus of our differences. The only thing that will truly liberate us globally is destroying government and capitalism."

Destroying various other things too - religion seems relevant. Liberation comes from creating things too. I don't think this is an abstraction and it is an obvious difference between us, but I wouldn't let it affect me working with someone who disagreed. Andrew said he'd be withdrawing from all activity and that is his choice, though it seems a shame. I disagree with his reason for being disruptive but I support people being disruptive as challenging percieved power structures is intrinsically anarchist even when it leaves you tilting at windmills. People can disagree on many issues and still work well together, and vice versa, so I hope Andrew attends one of the meetings to give his perspective on what was said. I slag off the SWP whenever I have breath but they are not my enemy. I'd even work with Socialist Workers on individual projects. I'd certainly go to any venue that would host these speakers.

Arthur, I am pretty sure Andrew and A are different people regardless of disagreeing with them. 99% sure - I am more sure of their identity than yours for example. I know some people have posted under multiple identities on the one thread but I never thought that about these related threads. I personally never thought they are the same person, and given that A has since pointed this out then you'd need some evidence to doubt that.