SWP completely lose the plot, invite terrorist spokeman to speak at Stop The War
Andrew | 27.02.2008 19:30 | Analysis | Anti-militarism | Terror War | South Coast
This is really quite sinister, and leads me to question exactly who is paying the SWP's bills.
http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=490&Itemid=1
My emphasis:
Tour: Eyewitness from Iraq and Lebanon
UK tour starts in London, 28 February, 6.30pm Friends Meeting House
Hassan Juma'a, President of the Iraqi Oil Workers Union will be speaking with Ibrahim Mousawi, editor of a journal linked to Lebanon's Hezbollah for their only meeting in London. This is a chance to hear what is really going on in the Middle East today. Meetings will take place in the following cities:
London , 28 February
Bristol , 29 February
Birmingham , 1 March
Manchester , 1 March
Cambridge , 2 March
Norwich , 2 March
Cardiff , 3 March
Liverpool , 4 March
Hassan Juma'a, President of the Iraqi Oil Workers Federation and Ibrahim Moussawi, Editor of the journal Al-Intiqad in Lebanon, linked to Hezbollah, will be joined by activists and authors on a tour of the UK.
(........................................................)
Ibrahim Moussawi is the editor of the Hezbollah newspaper, Al Intiqad. He is based in Lebanon.
This has already caused controversy on my local indymedia board.
First post:
http://www.bristol.indymedia.org/article/687947?condense_comments=false#comments
Reply:
http://www.bristol.indymedia.org/article/687955?condense_comments=false#comments
Counter-reply- note the heavy use of ad-hominem attacks. BTW, the poster FAILS miserably.
http://www.bristol.indymedia.org/article/687969?condense_comments=false#comments
Quo vadis, STW? You say you want to stop the war but you give an unopposed platform for a Hezbollah propagandist. If they wanted to show people what it was like in the ME, why not bring ordinary people from all the countries affected by the wars there?
It seems to me that there are two possibilities:
1) The SWP are taking Hezbollah's money. This is probably against the law, as Hezbollah are a well known gang of international terrorists and war criminals- just like the Western military-corporate establishment that SWP / Respect claim to oppose.
2) The SWP are taking the British governments' money. The government would dearly love to shut down protest but they need a reason. A tour like this seems incredibly provocative, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if physical violence broke out - already anti-fascists are talking about "giving Moussawi the welcome he deserves". The government could then ban all protests that don't have explicit police permission in advance, as is already the case in central London.
Of course, perhaps I am just being paranoid. It's an occupational hazard when dealing with far-left politics and the SWP and it's front groups do have a long, long history of being really, really stupid - but how come they are always stupid in such a way as to cause the protest movements they take over to fail? And how come they have so much money to print their papers, bus people around the country and form multiple front groups? Socialist / Communist newspapers such as the Morning Star and the Weekly Worker are constantly begging for money, donations, handouts etc - but the SWP seems able to run at a loss indefinitely.
Who is paying for this?
http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=490&Itemid=1 My emphasis:
Tour: Eyewitness from Iraq and Lebanon
UK tour starts in London, 28 February, 6.30pm Friends Meeting House
Hassan Juma'a, President of the Iraqi Oil Workers Union will be speaking with Ibrahim Mousawi, editor of a journal linked to Lebanon's Hezbollah for their only meeting in London. This is a chance to hear what is really going on in the Middle East today. Meetings will take place in the following cities:
London , 28 February
Bristol , 29 February
Birmingham , 1 March
Manchester , 1 March
Cambridge , 2 March
Norwich , 2 March
Cardiff , 3 March
Liverpool , 4 March
Hassan Juma'a, President of the Iraqi Oil Workers Federation and Ibrahim Moussawi, Editor of the journal Al-Intiqad in Lebanon, linked to Hezbollah, will be joined by activists and authors on a tour of the UK.
(........................................................)
Ibrahim Moussawi is the editor of the Hezbollah newspaper, Al Intiqad. He is based in Lebanon.
This has already caused controversy on my local indymedia board.
First post:
http://www.bristol.indymedia.org/article/687947?condense_comments=false#comments Reply:
http://www.bristol.indymedia.org/article/687955?condense_comments=false#comments Counter-reply- note the heavy use of ad-hominem attacks. BTW, the poster FAILS miserably.
http://www.bristol.indymedia.org/article/687969?condense_comments=false#comments Quo vadis, STW? You say you want to stop the war but you give an unopposed platform for a Hezbollah propagandist. If they wanted to show people what it was like in the ME, why not bring ordinary people from all the countries affected by the wars there?
It seems to me that there are two possibilities:
1) The SWP are taking Hezbollah's money. This is probably against the law, as Hezbollah are a well known gang of international terrorists and war criminals- just like the Western military-corporate establishment that SWP / Respect claim to oppose.
2) The SWP are taking the British governments' money. The government would dearly love to shut down protest but they need a reason. A tour like this seems incredibly provocative, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if physical violence broke out - already anti-fascists are talking about "giving Moussawi the welcome he deserves". The government could then ban all protests that don't have explicit police permission in advance, as is already the case in central London.
Of course, perhaps I am just being paranoid. It's an occupational hazard when dealing with far-left politics and the SWP and it's front groups do have a long, long history of being really, really stupid - but how come they are always stupid in such a way as to cause the protest movements they take over to fail? And how come they have so much money to print their papers, bus people around the country and form multiple front groups? Socialist / Communist newspapers such as the Morning Star and the Weekly Worker are constantly begging for money, donations, handouts etc - but the SWP seems able to run at a loss indefinitely.
Who is paying for this?
Andrew
Comments
Hide the following 48 comments
No fan of the SWP but....
27.02.2008 19:53
No fan of the SWP anarchoneilist
Disagree strongly
27.02.2008 20:04
Secondly, Hassan Juma'a is a secular union leader not a terrorist, and to smear him this way simply to attack the SWP is extremely damaging and ignorant of the facts. Juma'a is an intelligent and compassionate speaker and his expert testimony exposes the reality of the British invasion & occupation.
You question who is paying for the tour. If it's anything like the previous tours then they will be mostly paid by individual activists chipping in, scrimping, blagging, there is no extravagance. Do you know we get more on the dole than the best paid Iraqi oil workers ? These issues are so important, and these speakers so knowledgable that it doesn't matter who is hosting them. I can't attend but I hope someone on IM reports on the meetings.
Danny
a very twisted logic
27.02.2008 21:00
Accusing the 'Stop the War Coalition' of inviting terrorist spokeman is an extremely clever diversion from the real issues:
The Stop the War Coalition has aolways been very effective in shutting any meaningful debate on September 11 and July 7 bombings.
They have consistently ignored the obvious link between the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, implying that the latter was a legitimate war.
They also played a monumental role in discouraging the masses from protesting consistently in the crucial period between February 15 and March 18, 2003.
Now they are doing exactly the same by ignoring the imminent threat against Iran:
'We didn't stop that war, but may have stopped the next'
'Andrew', if you are an activist, please come to your senses.
If you are a paid agent of the British war establishment, then there is not much I can say to you.
Nick
Daft headlines
27.02.2008 22:37
To stop a war, you either win the war or create a dialectical synthesis of the opposing forces.
Andrew is wrong to call Hezbolla terrorist, they won an election and became a Government. Governments are never terrorists, The British have never been terrorists, neither are the Americans. What Governments do is by definition not terrorist.
You might ask why Blair and Bush are not on trial for war crimes.
Ilyan
My Concerns
27.02.2008 23:55
"Ibrahim Mousawi is editor of the Hezbollah newspaper Al-Intiqad and was a leading spokesperson for the successful resistance to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 2006."
From StWC newsletter 25 Feb 2008:
"Ibrahim al-Moussawi is editor of the Hezbollah newspaper in Lebanon, al-Intiqad, and one of the key spokespeople for the popular resistance to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 2006."
...
"Ibrahim Mousawi is defying a campaign by David Cameron to keep him out of the country."
Well David Cameron, along with other MPs voted in favour of the criminally violent war (by the terrorist British state) against Iraq, killing one million people. Both Israel and Hezbollah were using violence actions, and both probably acted criminally.
The speaking tour is not merely an opportunity to allow certain people the freedom to express their views which I would have supported, but is intended as a fundamental part of the "World Against War" tour. This tour (and therefore it's speakers) is spearheading the call by the Stop the War Coalition to march on March 15, to mark the five years since the Iraq invasion began and that march is currently titled "World Against War" - the same name as the 'Hezbollah' tour.
I am part of a local Stop the War group where I live and would like to support the Stop the War Coalition. However they must understand that some people who do not want to support violent methods will be uncomfortable with this and have doubts. Especially if they want to have a broad coalition. Maybe they should include some more speakers with more peaceful approaches as well.
Brian B
Fuck the SWP but kudos to them for organising this
28.02.2008 00:40
BrainB, you've written some great posts on Iraq, doubtless that is at some personal risk to yourself, if only in financial terms or the odd spell in prison. No offence though but that is a daft thing to say You should really examine the difference between the risks you personally face for standing up for what is right, and the assasination attempts Hassan Juma'a has survived in his 'peaceful approaches'. No offence, but you are not worthy enough to criticise his personal path even indirectly. You pay taxes to occupy Iraq which has caused genocide - he organises legitimate and just workers strikes while stuck between terrorists trying to kill him and western corporations who probably wish him dead, all the time persecuted by western governments who try to deny his union access to western media. I don't know who Andrew is but I do recognise you and Iknow you should be regretting your comment by your own high standards on IM.
Now if you want to differentiate the Hezb'Allah editor for special disdain then that is more contentious. I personallly can't remember the last time Lebanon mounted a serious invasion of Israel though, and any freedom fighter can be defined as a terrorist by the state that they oppose. I hope you don't think I am out of line for suggesting you are wrong this time and I hope you do consider going along to judge for yourself. Not for the first or last time the SWP have correctly identified important issues and important speakers to highlight. Anyone genuinely trying to learn facts about these subjects would wish to attend these meetings. You can go along and ask difficult questions you know. I personally would love to read your own report on one of these meetings and hope you choose to attend for that reason. If you still feel your oblique criticism is justified then I'll listen to your reasons. I have heard thousands of speakers, and Mr Juma'a is perhaps the most important, certainly one of the most thoughtful and informative.
Danny
Response
28.02.2008 00:43
For a start - Hezbollah are a political paramilitary organisaiton. Describing someone as a "Hezbollah journalist" is like speaking of an "IRA journalist" - it is a political organisation and anyone who edits their "newspaper" cannot be a journalist but more accurately a propagandist. Propaganda in the service of violence - isn't that supposed to be what we're against?
Secondly - I'm not just questioning who is paying for the tour - I'm questioning who is paying for the entire SWP. Socialist papers are notorious for having problems with funding, except the SWP - where do they get their money? Worth finding out more I think, especially when so many activists over the years complained of the SWP ruining popular movements. In whose interests is it to associate the anti-war movement with an organisation whose stated aims are the violent elimination of an entire country?
From the very start of the War On Terror we have been told that one is either with the government or with the terrorists. And so up pops an organisation which proudly associates itsself with the terrorists. Whose agenda does this serve? The neocons who consistently accuse the left of siding with Islamic terrorism and anti-semitism, or the cause of peace?
Please don't take my word for it - Hezbollah are not a bunch of fluffy bunnies. They want to destroy a whole country and are on record as making the worst kinds of racist statements concerning Jews. They even thought that the movie "Independance day" was a Jewish conspiracy, for crying out loud!
Oh, and please check out the attached pictures of Hezbollah militants doing the Nazi salute.
Andrew
Only because the victims are Jews, sorry Israelis?
28.02.2008 01:13
And whoever is making moral equivalence with Blair or Cameron, do you support the SWP inviting them to speak and enter into a dialogue?
PS. Some insights into Islamist and Arab nationalist militants' agendas, in case you missed it:
Strepsil
Poor response
28.02.2008 01:19
We're all Hezb'Allah ?
For a start you should not blame the faults on one speaker on the other. A speaker who condones violence as a measure to reduce violence is not a terrorist - even placid Chomsky goes that far. Lot's of us went to listen to the various points of view as regards Northern Ireland in the eighties- and now we have peace there.
"Propaganda in the service of violence - isn't that supposed to be what we're against?"
I'd say the primary function of IM is to dispel MSM constructed myths. Listen, I'd have more time for this argument if you had actually attended the debates and taken part in them. I think it is wrong for you to call for a boycott beforehand without having listened or questioned the speaker. The Iraqi Oil Union has been stopped from speaking here before by state agents. If you really aren't a state agent and do oppose violence then you should seriously take a step back at this point. You, Andrew, are personally acting in the interests of our state. If that is not intentional then take a day or two to investigate for yourself and report back.
I love your photo of Hezb'Allah doing a nazi salute. You fail to mention that someone on your original thread already ridiculed that. I hope you also boycott the english football team for the same reason.
Danny
No, nothing anti semitic about Nazi salutes at all. Perish the thought...
28.02.2008 01:30
Shame on me for jumping to the conclusion that running around with guns, starting a war with Isreal, spouting off about how much you hate Jews all the time and doing Nazi salutes whenever the opportunity presents itsself is somehow anti semitic!
(BTW, Mein Kampf is a best seller in the Middle East. Pictured is the cover of a 2003 edition released by the Palestinian authority)
Andrew
So Danny,
28.02.2008 01:46
How do they plan to reduce violence further by building a whole new military infrastructure north of the Litani River as they are doing now?
Strepsil
My eye for your eye
28.02.2008 02:06
As opposed to on the border with Israel before 1939 ? Yeah, that's a safe guess given Israel didn't exist.
"Shame on me for jumping to the conclusion that running around with guns, starting a war with Isreal, spouting off about how much you hate Jews all the time and doing Nazi salutes whenever the opportunity presents itsself is somehow anti semitic!"
No, those are arguable points. I don't think you would win those arguments in this context but it'd be fair for you to try, it's just they are seperate and irrelevant. You stated the flaw in your argument yourself. There were good journalists that were labelled as 'IRA' by loyalists, and vice versa. Rightly or wrongly it was determined by tribe and other preconceptions. You can't simplify this by analogy so I suggest you lose the nazi imagery, it doesn't reflect well on anyone at this point. For you to smear an entire peace tour by first being opposed to the hosts, only for it to be actually an argument about Hezb'Alah and Israel, well, that is hijacking the thread from one issue to another, and that seems to me to be deliberately disingenuous. This isn't about the SWP to you though is it ? This isn't about Basra either. Would it be unfair for me to suggest that your post is primarily motivated by concern for Israel ? Just to avoid any confusion, are there aspects of Israeli state policy that you can also criticise ?
I think all of the jewish anarchists I know would wish to attend one of these meetings if they could , if only to contribute with valid criticism. Everyone who pays taxes in the UK should go and hear Hassan Juma'a speak though, you can leave after that if you consider the Hezb'Allah linked editor a terrorist.
Danny
Strep
28.02.2008 02:32
Jeez, any conscript in the IDF should be able to answer this. Hezb'Allah mostly consist of people who have been attacked by Israel and occassional allied forces for all of their lives, or who believe that to be the case. Most Israelis still fell shame for the '82 invasion for political reasons, never mind the shame of being beaten back - in truth as much by their own incompetence and unwillingness to fight as by superior Hezb-Allah resistance. So there were 3,700 rockets you claim Hezb'Allah fired into Israel. And what munnitions did the Israelis deem 'an eye for an eye' - how many millions of cluster bombs, how many bunkerbusters, how much white phosperous and DU nuclear waste. Is that proportionate ? Would the Torah condone that ?
I would suggest a good way to avoid further violence in any region is to talk more with your enemies, and a sensible precursor to that is listening to what they have to say rather than trying to ignore them.
Danny
Danny
28.02.2008 05:28
As with Palestinian militant groups there will be many Hezbollah footsoldiers who are personally motivated by retaliation/psychological resolution for violent incidents that affected them, but the organizational agendas are wider-ranging than this.
Hezbollah is not seeking financial compensation, it will not recognize Israel and seeks its destruction, whereas Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon (save the dispute over Shebaa farms) and did not intend further conflict there - or it would not have been in its interest to withdraw. Platforming Hezbollah speakers in the context of a "Peace Conference"/"Stop The War" is doublethink, to put it mildly.
In regard to your responses to Andrew, I don't see any evidence that he was smearing Hassan Juma'a, he was merely citing the SWP publicity. Also, are you saying SWP is smearing Al Intiqad by calling it "linked to Hezbollah"/"the Hezbollah newspaper"? You also seem to be saying that criticising the platforming of Hezbollah is invalid or disingenuous since they are fighting Israel.
You suggest talking to people considered repugnant, but that doesn't mean you have to platform them. Talking led to the end of the two World Wars and might have led to a peaceful restitutive settlement for Saddam's ceasefire breaches. Israel is quite capable of doing deals with its enemies without the help of the SWP and has conducted several prisoner exchanges with enemy militia groups in the past.
Finally if you want to avoid potential blasphemy I suggest you stick with the spelling "Hezbollah" unless you believe they actually are God's Own Party, as your spelling more resolutely suggests. Surpassing the BBC who merely reserve a special pronunciation rule for "Hezbollah" and "Nazrallah".
Strepsil
Their cry was "No Surrender!..."
28.02.2008 09:51
I just wonder whether it would have all made more sense if they all sat down and talked and more importantly listened back in the 1970s. Instead we got decades of an unwinnable situation that eventually took two governments and two paramilitary organisaions sitting down and talking to move things on and bring the killing largely to an end.
I would advise letting absolutely anyone relevant who is also willing to listen talk. I'd caution against inviting Frau Meinhoff and Herr Baader though, they are not going to be saying much but making an awful stink. But at the time, sure, what do you have to fear from dialogue? Unless of course you know you occupy an indefensible position.
Now to my understanding ascribing the term terrorists to Hizbollah is a bit difficult. Sure there have been actions in the name of Hizbollah that easily qualify as terrorism as could be said of the IDF, the UK and the USA. Where Hizbollah differs from the early PIRA, the RAF and the many incarnations of al Qaeda is that Hizbollah is also a popular political and social organisation. As was the ANC.
The PIRA started out largely as a non-violent grassroots activist movement in response to UK indifference to the persecution of a minority in Ulster. They got "radicalised" under the absolutist boot of of the British State.
They later learned that they could be far more effective branching out into politics and as Sinn Fein have gained much more support than when they were putting nail bombs in department stores and fire bombs in night clubs.
That's a very simplified version of what happened. Like most things you'll find it wasn't as simple and clean as you would wish but it's certain that the PIRA Army Council did a lot of "mopping up" of Real IRA and Continuity IRA too. But at any rate it looks safe to say that the concepts of the IRA and UDA/UVF are now defunct and will remain so for the forseeable future.
The Rote Armee Fraktion had no popular support to speak of. ETA's support has largely drained away but could be mobilised again if the Spanish treatment of the region regresses enough. Perhaps Madrid should in dialogue with the people it is just throwing in jail. Time will tell.
Is there a single conflict that wasn't ended ultimately by the conflicting sides sitting round a table and entering dialogue? If there was it was probably ended through mass murder followed by decades of brutal oppression. Iraq is proving to be the latter.. though I am sure that there was a lot of dialogue with Iraqi generals negotiating their surrender.
Dialogue should always be encouraged. It's the only way to surmount the intractable dogma that breeds in isolation. The only way defeat ideas. The only way to understand the motivation behind acts of brutality.
However, having seen Tony Blair in "debate" I was advise that would be a hiding to nothing. He doesn't listen. I would though love to see him in Milosevic's old seat in the Hague for some Q&A or even better tried in Baghdad.
3 Wise Monkeys
The Story in the Picture?
28.02.2008 10:16
One of those pictures does you views no favour. It reads in the background rich development on stolen land. In the middle, a wall. In the foreground, the induced respose.
Does anyone know the name of the Jewish girl in the Baltic States whose reponse to the Balfour Declaration was that there just was not enough room in Palestine for all the Jews, and what about the people already living there. She emigrated to South Africa and became ANC.
Ilyan
Oh my dear God Andrew look!
28.02.2008 10:16
If I were an Arab in a country neighbouring Israel I'd probably hang a massive Swastika banner from my window and blast Goebbels out across the border. I'm not saying it is right, but it is an obvious cheap way of causing pain when you feel outgunned.
Do you really, really, REALLY believe that Hizbollah is a Nazi cult? Come on.
But for your information the United States is the world's biggest publisher, consumer and exporter of Mein Kampf. There is a Dutch publisher that reprints German version (banned in Germany) but that's chickenfeed.
I recommend making teenagers read and debate Mein Kampf in its entirety as part of the national curriculum. It's a book so boring, so badly written and so full of obvious crap that anyone who ever read it would have to irretrievably fascistic not to conclude that Nazi ideology is totally stupid.
You may also wish to note that the United States is also mired in political leaders steeped in Middle Ages authoritarian brainwashing, but unlike the Arabs in the Middle East, they hold the crown for genocide at this present time. And some of them even believe that a nuclear apocalypse will herald the Second Coming.
If you were asking us to unite and stamp the demon of religious fanaticism into the ground I'd be packing my bags and asking when the next plane to Texas was leaving... oh you want to go to Tehran? But that's way down on the list!
3 Wise Monkeys
I can no longer support the institutionally racist anti war movement
28.02.2008 13:22
Go hang out with your Nazi mates then - just don't be surprised when a few queers and Jews show up with the Cable Street response to this shit- THEY SHALL NOT PASS. Ever heard of Cable Street? We all know what side of the barricades you lot would be on - right out there with Mosely.
PS
"One of those pictures does you views no favour. It reads in the background rich development on stolen land. In the middle, a wall. In the foreground, the induced respose."
As it happens that town was founded in 1898 by refugees from the Russian pogroms - on some crappy land that had been BOUGHT (not stolen) from the Druze by Baron Rothschild.
PPS
The SWP also hang out with celebrated Holocaust denier Gilad Aztmon, whose party trick is that he "used to be Jewish". Check it out.
You are climbing into bed with a bunch of racists and militarists. Which would be about fine but you are doing it in MY name. I oppose the Iraq war - so why is a Lebanese militarist being dragged out to speak on MY behalf? These are serious questions which need to be answered - You and the SWP are making Bush and the neocons right, because from where I'm standing a lot of the left does seem to be sympathetic to terrorists and racists. Well, you've just lost a warm body, because I honestly don't see myself protesting the war anymore as it means being taken for some kind of neo-Nazi.
Andrew
More on that "stolen land"....
28.02.2008 13:48
"Metula was founded in 1896 on lands bought from Druze land owners by Baron de Rothschild. The Jewish settlement was founded by 60 farming families from more established settlements and 20 families of non-farming professions. Most of the founders were immigrants from Russia who were fleeing pogroms (riots against Jews occurring during that period in Russia). Pioneers (halutzim) from Petah Tikva also joined in settling Metula, as did some scholars from Safed. Half a century later, Holocaust survivors found refuge in Metula."
The photo is in this link (scrolldown):
"Photo : Hezbollah press service, taken on January 8, 2002
Note our housing area in the background [red roofs, translator’s note]"
But of course, it's are all the fault of teh j00000000000000000000000000000z, right?
Andrew
Simply lame
28.02.2008 14:36
Sure, there are groups and individuals who say some utterly reprehensible things. And I doubt anyone who has commented here so far thinks they should be put up on a pedestal and praised for that kind of rhetoric. But the horse pulls the cart in the real world. People in war are attracted by all sorts of verbal abuse. Very few in Britain buy into anti-German or anti-Japanese or anti-Italian crap anymore, but this country wash awash with it a few decades ago.
It is plainly ridiculous to suggest because Hizbollah like to wind Israel and Zionists up with the stuff that they are card-carrying Nazis. Some might be, just as some in Knesset certainly could be described as such.
And before you say it: yes I do exercise as much understanding for Israelis who spout some of the most evil crap too.
I'm not sure how I stand with the SWP's platform, as I have no knowledge of the politics of the individual concerned. If they are a real bona fide raving Nazi lunatic then I am disinclined to the give them the time of day. Butthe shrill narrative I am hearing sounds like you want us to belive that they are all Hitler acolytes. Have you got any verifiable evidence of this individual's personal Nazi views?
I have no time for the SWP full stop anyway. They could invite Idi Amin and I wouldn't see it as anything unusual for them. Perhaps even progress given some of their affiliations.
But if this just an exercise to use some of the dodgy stuff Zionists like to cast up as an exercise in totally marginalising Hizbollah, Hamas etc. then you can bugger right off. We can do without you. I think the clusterbombing and kidnapping and attrition may just have a part to play in in people making bad decisions and less than favourable affiliations, don't you? And do you think that writing one and all off as Nazis is going to bring about any positive change? Or are you just not interested in dialogue full stop?
I notice however you have nothing to say about the massive distribution of Mein Kampf in the USA and the very dangerous fanatics there. Is it only Arab readers of Mein Kampf that bother you? Should we invade the USA after the Lebanon?
Like I said before, you can't ignore a problem away.
3 Wise Monkeys
your enemys enemy is not your friend
28.02.2008 15:20
how has this happened? how have we let the SWP become the common face of the left?? something has gone so badly wrong.
jess
swp,bunch of nutters
28.02.2008 16:02
so what im trying to say is fuck the swp, they are a bunch of idiots who failed to stop the iraq war due to their awful tactics and failure to utilize the thousands of protesters they managed to fool. and fuck hizbullah and the idf two military organisations who openly commit war crimes and treat civilians as pawns during their power wars.
(A)
(A)
diagreeable
28.02.2008 17:06
The word 'terrorism' originally meant state terror against civilians - generally where the civilians were activists being mowed down by police and army It's meaning was turned on it's head as it wasn't useful to states. So is Andrew really saying this guy is likely to blow anything up or attack anyone - no. Andrew is attacking Moussawi because of what he might say. It is his words that are dangerous, not him. And they are dangerous because they are reasonable.
MOUSSAWI: You have to address this to Hezbollah. I don't speak on behalf of Hezbollah.
“Governments”, Moussawi argues, “should not censor what people have to say and confiscate the right of intelligent people to decide what to hear or not to hear. I’m a staunch defender of political freedoms and freedom of speech,” Moussawi categorically denies the accusation that he has promoted “anti-Semitic” views. “I would challenge anyone to provide evidence of any word that I have said that is hateful or anti-Semitic,” he says, adding that he himself has been a victim of discrimination and has therefore made a special effort to eschew any form of prejudice. “I have nothing against Jews. I have nothing against any human being, whether because of religion, gender or political affiliation,” he explains. “I’m a human being who believes in dignity, independence and freedom. I’m a bridge-builder and I’ve always been an advocate of dialogue and discussion.”
"during the 2006 israel/hizbullah war BOTH sides used cluster bombs, BOTH sides fired on civilians and BOTH commited war crimes so why does the swp continually talk about it as a one sided affair?"
Because one side invaded the other illegally. One side started targetting civilians directly. Because one side has dispreportionate weapons, including weapons of mass destruction. Because one side dropped millions of cluster bombs that our state subsidises. Because the other side suffered the mass of civilian casualties. I'd agree the SWP are fucked, but your understanding of that conflict seems fanciful if it seems anything other than a one sided affair.
There have been British soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Does that mean no of us should have anything to do with any Iraqi or Afghani who wants the occupation to end as they are 'supporting terrorists' ? You seem to be blaming Hizb'Allah for not running away when the Israelis invaded. You seem to have forgotten Lebanon in 1982.
Danny
Hizbollah are NOT terrorists
28.02.2008 18:19
Hizbollah captured 3 Israeli soldiers and.... Israel has kidnapped numerous Lebanese, thousands of Palestinians, all without trials or summary military trials. Why is it acceptable if a state does that?
There is no comparison between Hizbollah which has a mass base in Lebanon and say the Real IRA still less Bader Meinhoff which substituted violence for any mass support. The Provisional IRA were also not terrorist, as the more nuanced British establishment commentators now realise, because they too had a mass base amongst the nationalist population in Ireland.
In fact Hizbollah is more like a national liberation movement. I don't support its politics but then I'm not in Lebanon so it's not for me to support it, but the reactionary who posted the initial article is clearly a supporter of the violence (both military and verbal) of the ruling class and their definitions of 'terrorism' rather than someone who supports the right of oppressed people to be free.
I can't stand the SWP incidentally but having the Gen. Sec. of the oil workers union, a secular organisation over is a very good idea. I wonder what the Blairite who posted this missive would want, handing over Iraq's oil to the USA to pay for their war on Iraq?
Tony Greenstein
Tony Greenstein
e-mail:
tonygreenstein@yahoo.com
Profiling of British Muslims
28.02.2008 21:09
anarchoneilist
So many hypocrises
28.02.2008 21:12
Tony you say Hezbollah aren't terrorists, because they are a popular movement, but you hint strongly that the Israeli government are. Don't you know Israeli political parties are mostly popular movements or they wouldn't get elected? Hezbollah would say Israel is not a valid sovereign state, and by your definition Danny that would mean Israel cannot be terrorists either.
It could also be argued that Mehdi Army, Al Qaeda in Iraq, Al Qaeda in Pakistan tribal areas have mass popular bases.
Danny: "Because one side invaded the other illegally. One side started targetting civilians directly." What was illegal about Israel invading Lebanon in response to Hezbollah attacking from Lebanon? What is your evidence that Israel targetted civilians directly (rather than Hezbollah postions and launch sites in proximity to civilians) before Hezbollah did?
I'm not so naive as to say Israeli soldiers never target civilians directly but where is your evidence the Israeli command was doing this intentionally in Lebanon?
Danny: "Because one side has dispreportionate weapons". Is it proportionate for this state within a state in Lebanon to have stronger firepower than many African countries combined? With access to such resources it's hardly surprising they can afford a social arm as well.
Tony: "Hizbollah is more like a national liberation movement." For whom do you mean, the Lebanese who already have democracy (in spite of assassinations of politicians opposed to Syrian domination), or for the Shebaa farms, or for the Palestinians, or for Shia Lebanese in order that they can secede from Lebanon, or for Shia Lebanese to take control of Lebanon?
Strepsil
the question is not wheather they are terrorists, but what their views are
28.02.2008 21:39
ps tony said
In fact Hizbollah is more like a national liberation movement.
but israel pulled out of southern lebanon in 2000 wtf are the liberating now? and why do they as a political organisation who registar in elections need a paramilitary?
pps strepsil, i wish i could meet you to shake your hand, you obviously know enough about this situation and can see through all the rubbish coming from both the swp and these idiots who claim to neither support the swp nor hizbullah yet back them both up to the hilt with lies and unimprotant details concerning hizbullahs power base and legitimacy.
(A)
Speaks volumes
28.02.2008 22:27
You have the cheek to come here and lecture people about the Lebanese and you seemingly haven't the slightest clue about the bombing patterns.
Pilots aren't just sent up and told to bomb what they feel like. Go read the Red Cross and HRW reports. You'll find an overwhelming number of civilian targets.
3 Wise Monkeys
Hezbollah and terrorism
28.02.2008 22:45
"If I were an Arab in a country neighbouring Israel I'd probably hang a massive Swastika banner from my window and blast Goebbels out across the border"
Are you completely insane?
Is your idea of legitimate protest against the actions of Israel is being as mindlessly offensive as possible not to Israelis but to all Jewish people?
Tony Greenstein,
I respect the relentless hounding you do of Gilad Atzmon and your exposing of the way a supposedly socialist organisation, the SWP, provides a platform for that anti-Semite but can you not see a parallel here?
Regardless of mass support or not Hezbollah whose leader stated the Jews are more cowardly, weak and despicable than any other, amongst other clearly racist statements. It is a violent, anti-Semitic organisation, for example I don't think it is a sustainable argument to say they are unaware of the Nazi connatations of the straight-armed salute.
If a leading figure of a far right party in Europe said such a thing you would have no trouble condemning them as anti-Semitic. Why the blind-spot with regards to Hezbollah?
Ibrahim Mousawi is not only a member of Hezbollah but a leading one who produces and distributes their propaganda. It is laughable to claim these people can be in any way considered 'anti-war'.
I think inviting the leader of the oil workers union leader to come and speak is a brilliant idea but I would not go and see go and see them because I have consistent politics and don't think you should provide anti-Semites or any sort of racist a platform, regardless of whether you see them as oppressed or not.
As far as I'm concerned, the SWP are once again giving a platform to an anti-Semite and this is not inconsistent with the politics of their organisation.
I also genuinely do not see how you can argue the Provos were not terrorists after events like the Warrington and Enniskillen bombs, they deliberately killed children and those commerating the dead of previous wars. These were not 'legitimate targets'. As an aside, their 'mass support' peaked at around 11% of the electorate, hardly a ringing endorsement.
If you exclude those who deliberately target civilians from your definition of terrorism then the term is meaningless. This is not the 'ruling class' definition of terrorism, I would have thought it was basic morality to reject the politics of any organisation which thinks the killing of children is an acceptable way to advance their struggle.
Duncan Money
Homepage:
http://nation-of-duncan.blogspot.com
STW is not just SWP
28.02.2008 22:59
I could reply to lots of the comments. I was wondering if people would object to a journalist who worked for a paper linked to the Labour Party which uses terrorism.
Plunk
SWP kudos?
29.02.2008 00:15
When it comes to Hezbollah that is a different matter... I have a right to disagree with violent methods if I want to. The British government has bombed Iraq and Afghanistan and claims not to target civilians. They ALL know that civilians are going to be killed, and yet still continue with their actions.
Brian B
Reject the Only Answer
29.02.2008 01:23
Stolen land is stolen from Palestine, the original deeds should show that it is land in Palestine under the Ottomans. So it is fine for Jews to live there, but not Israelis without immigration visas.
Have you ever seen the BNP give Anti-Fascists the Hitler salute? They do it when anti fascists turn themselves into Hitlerite fascists.
If you want to know something about Cable Street, ask, I had the story from the man who, when no other member would accept the position, became the Chair of the Committee set up by London East End Jewish Workers' Circle to Stop Moseley's March - because his wife told him to volunteer as the Committee were getting nowhere without a Chair. I have his copy of 'Capital' by Marx, though he told me he never joined the Communist Party. He gave me a copy of Plebs' League textbook number Three “An Outline of Economics” to read when I was about eleven.
He had a CP friend, also Jewish, who insisted to me that the term anti-Semitic applied only to people who hated Arabs as well as Jews. He thought that interpretation had to be adopted generally for the future security of the Israel that was then being born. I now hear that the term was made well over a hundred years ago by a German speaking academic racist to insult Jews by calling them Arabs.
I have just gone back to read the comments put up since I started writing. I see a piece by Tony Greenstein. Is it a forgery? It is understandable, has some basis in reality, does not confuse us all with that anti-semitic obsession, and is in serious danger of finding Atzmon agreeing with him.
I was going to advise everyone to go and read a book that can be downloaded for free “The Psychology of Intelligence Analysis” made available world wide by our good friends in the CIA whose manual it is. They made it public hoping that all the politicians would read it. And they mean all, including Anarchists. Though their primary target are the stupid Politicians who make such a mess misreading all the excellent analysis they produce. Come to think of it, I still do so advise. If you do not want the CIA to know you downloaded it, ask around, you may have a friend who has a CD with it in the text.
Ilyan
an Illegal & immoral war
29.02.2008 09:29
For a start the legal response to a terrorist kidnapping is to launch a police action, not an invasion. Secondly it wasn't in response, it was planned months if not years ahead of the kidnapping, or so said Ehud Olmert.
"What is your evidence that Israel targetted civilians directly (rather than Hezbollah postions and launch sites in proximity to civilians) before Hezbollah did?"
Israel/Lebanon: Israeli Indiscriminate Attacks Killed Most Civilians - No Evidence of Widespread Hezbollah ‘Shielding’
Danny
glorifying anti-semitism
29.02.2008 16:34
tick
Free speech is only for Hezbollah, us plebs need not apply.
01.03.2008 01:58
Happily I wasn't the only one, although nobody else protested in front of the council house apparently a Jewish man got inside and tried to make his feelings known (and got dragged out by security) and another veteran of leftie demos asked Mr. Hezbollah himself what he was doing at an event protesting war when he was a spokeman for an armed militia. From little acorns large pacifist trees do grow...
I must admit I've never been a pacifist in the past but now I see the logic, if you support armed violence then you should be ready to answer for every single person you've killed.
That's enough from me - I can only hope that the SWP fall to bits and a genuine, inclusive anti-war movement can grow in its place - regardless of race, religion or whatever.
The war in Iraq is a horror and our troops should not be there.
Andrew
Put up or shut up on the racism charge
01.03.2008 12:36
The war in Lebanon was also a horror and IDF troops should not have been there.
If the war in Iraq is your priority then why wreck the only opportunity most people are going to have to speak to the union leader of the oil fields we occupy ? You could just ask people to walk out when Mousawi talks.
You have called Mousawi anti-semitic, and I reposted his reponse denying that and asking for proof. I was asked for what evidence I had that Israel deliberately targetted Lebanese civilians and I provided the link to the Human Rights Watch report which states that and worse. So how about someone providing one anti-semitic quote from the Lebanese journalist ? Because if you are miscalling someone rascist then your freedom of speech isn't worth anyone defending.
Danny
Ilyan
01.03.2008 15:08
Yes, it's genuine. Now you have some real, genuine Zionists getting up close and personal. Spot the difference.
Andrew's idea of an anti-war movement that is inclusive of apologists for Israeli war crimes is simply beyond satire.
Doctor Strangelove
re: Free speech is only for Hezbollah, us plebs need not apply.
01.03.2008 15:41
It'll have to be someone other than you who does it then Andrew, because a foul mouthed sexist who wants to exclude entire sections of the left is never going to manage to do anything other than shout incoherent abuse, while everyone else gives you a very wide berth.
not a sexist
So what's sexist about opposing militarism and hypocracy?
01.03.2008 17:06
Andrew
not in the swp
01.03.2008 18:20
Your article is disgracefully peppered with the most vulgar sexist language, and you really are a lunatic if you think anyone else is likely to ever stand alongside you again (not they did this time either). Not even the Bristol Blogger who called the protest could be bothered to stand next to you.
A coward and a drunk who wont even stand up for each other is about as far opposition to STW in Bristol gets. This, if nothing else, is now entirely clear.
not a sexist
SWP - pro-militarism, pro-islamist bullies and slandering liars.
02.03.2008 12:09
Perhaps Bristol Blogger has better things to do. Friday night is, after all, the end of the working week and traditionally the night when people meet their friends, rather than support racist foreign militias - something Puritans like you don't seem to understand or you'd have scheduled your little meet-up on a weeknight.
I think you'll find that the bullying, slandering SWP and their anonymous Fighting Keyboard Division are the cowards here. Hypocritical too - some rough language can never compare to the murderous mysogeny of the Islamists which STW uncondintionally support.
Why are you so afraid of free speech? Why does the SWP consistently hang out with holocaust deniers and terrorists? Who pays the bills, over at the Shibboleth Workers Party?
Here are some more links:
SWP caught illegaly taking cash from dodgy Dubai corporation - the only time they've ever backed down!
SWP supports a known holocaust denier:
SWP bullying of other activists:
Until very recently the SWP unconditionally supported the mysogenist regime in Tehran:
Andrew
Ridiculous Cop Out
02.03.2008 13:36
What a ridiculous cop out, what a crushing lack of committment to ones own principles. If someone calls a protest they should at least have the decency to show up, so that they don't become a local laughing stock who will never again be able to credibly call any kind of protest in the future.
And you're still persisting with this idea that i'm in the SWP, which makes your opening conspiracy theory look quite unbalanced and increasingly desperate. Personally I hate the SWP, and I find it deeply depressing that the alternative you present to it is so ranting, conspiratorial, and paranoid.
Who knows, maybe you're being paid by the SWP to make anarchists look ridicuolous, and if not you should ask them to bung you a few quid, because you're currently doing them huge favours entirely for free by discrediting yourselves so openly.
not a sexist
Saint Andrew
02.03.2008 15:16
You complain about your freedom of speech being abused is pretty weak on your behaviour on this thread that seems to generalise everyone who disagrees with you as a SWP/ Green / Nazi / Anti-semite, denying the public the chance to hear two important speakers. I notice in the hidden comments that after I disagreed with you that someone posted a stupid comment under my name, and another calling me a fuckwit, which is hardly the tactic of someone genuinely concerned with free speech. it seems a useful platitude, much like using sexist language to pontificate about other peoples mysoginy, or wrecking the most important Iraqi speakers tour while citing Iraq as a priority. You are a bag of contradictions.
Now you've labelled this guy as a anti-semite and a terrorist, without any supporting quotes or evidence. Unless you are prepared to answer questions with facts then playing the victim now is rather embarassing.
Danny
That salute...
03.03.2008 00:56
So you're all Hezbollah now, are you?
When are you gonna make the Hezbollah Salute your official greeting then?
"With a Nazi salute and a steel capped boot
You follow like sheep inna wolfclothes"
Andrew
(Reads unbelievably long and tedious thread full of green ink & nonsense)
03.03.2008 01:32
Well he's obviously a fucking moron too, which makes his expose of the SWP even more poingant. Nobody with half a brain could even conceive of Hezbollah as part of an anti-war movement. You must all have rocks in your heads the size of Gibraltar.
Oh no, I sweared again! Nasty working class people shouldn't be allowed on the internets if they swear!
As for facts about Hezbollah - what about Hezbollah TV's broadcasting of "Horseman Without A Horse", a historical romp through the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
(cache used as original article is 404'd)
Hezbollah's slimy PR machine, playing both sides of the street while being really nasty racists is well known and documented. Wikipedia and google are your friends - although I'm sure you'll be telling us that they're all Zionists and Anarchist wreckers too, right?
Andrew
Andrew's Crusade
03.03.2008 10:56
The fact that they pulled their reins at Indymedia to slay the heathen cult SWP and the fact that Indymedia isn't the home gorund to the SWP hasn't deterred them. They are still egging for a fight. Here SWP posts tend to get hidden immediately as most people here are anti-authoritarian / non-hierarchical.
Seems like they are bent on having a pogrom anyway, after marching themselves to the top of the hill. They look like they won't be happy till we make some recanting of Baal at the point of a sword. So here we go. I don't reckon it'll work but...
SWP are cunts. They hijack demos. Talk down to you. They make the left look stupid. They probably are an MI5 project. Hopefully are! And they smell of stale urine.
I condemn all racism. It is unfortunate but perhaps inevitable that some elements in Hizbollah use anti-Semitism to taunt Israel. I'm sure some of it will be genuine racism, but I suspect much of it will be just spite. At any rate, they have a popular support base.
But I haven't been bombed by Israel nor live under the threat of it. So my distaste in my relative luxury for such activity really counts for sweet fuck all.
And I take it Andrew and Hardy have never come under rocket fire from Hizbollah, so I am wondering where they are coming from.
Doctor Strangelove
The Roman Salute
03.03.2008 11:40
If your photo proves anything it is that the Nazis were unoriginal cultural thieves would would misappropriate anything they wanted, unless you believe that the Roman Emperors were time-travelling Nazis. Ancient Indians (arya) were the original ayrans and their temples are covered in swastikas (svástikas), so should we consider them proto-nazis and boycott India too ?
Danny
Homepage:
http://www.answers.com/topic/roman-salute
Shame on you!
03.03.2008 12:39
Round these parts the Nazi salute means something very, very sinister and evil. London has been bombed by Nazi terrorist as recently as 1999 - you seem to forget this.
The only people who practice the "Roman salute" in Britian are right wing racists. It's inconceivable that you could not know this.
Racial taunting is also frowned upon in this country. As is warmongering and terrorism. This is a multicultural society; people here have to live together, the ideal is that we live and work side by side and tolerate each others differences, rather than exclude others from social movements by having divisive figures like Moussawi along. Especially in a country where violent attacks against Jews hit record levels last year and racism and intolerance generally are the increase.
Why not invite peace protestors from BOTH sides, people who put everything on the line to calm things down, rather than stoking wars and firing off missiles in order to get themseves elected? And why conflate the Iraq war - which the British government could end tomorrow if it wanted to - with events in third countries which our leaders have no control over at all? (although I'm sure they could certainly do more for peace, and shouldn't be delivering arms to Isreal, Saudi Arabia, etc)
That Hezbollah and its ilk are welcome in my country and my city should be a mark of shame on all of us. Shame on you!
Andrew