If feminist seperatists are all you have to worry about (name removed by moderator) then you are a lucky person.

You show no respect to the purpose of the protest, which is against violence against women. Oh but I forget...feminist seperatism is much more of a pressing issue than violence against women... Yeah cos feminist seperatism rapes women, beats women and kills women every day in this world.

Your brain may say you are a woman, your brain may say you are gender queer, but the fact is you have a penis, and not only that...but a white penis. You are not welcome in the women only space. You and your white male entitlement can go fuck off.

Surely a reclaim the night event should be about demanding the night is safe for everyone – and if it’s going to be specifically about gender it should be for people of all genders who get fucked over by current gendered power relations?

A ‘white penis,’ whether attached to a transperson or not, doesn’t signify some kind of essential power – don’t be so silly, think about what you’re saying. Power relations fly around in all directions – including between women, and, at times, placing women in a dominant position over men. Obviously overall ‘men’ are in a hegemonic position over ‘women’ in today’s societies; however, this is not a simple or essential state. The separatist position fails to acknowledge the complexities of power, its over simplistic – think about how race, nationality, class, sexuality, abled-bodiness all intersect in creating hierarchies. I’m guessing Charliegrrrl that you actually have a fair amount of privilege all things considered, you certainly seem to be asserting your privilege pretty offensively over transpeople. Perhaps your own privilege is something you can’t yet acknowledge; once you do I’m sure you’ll change your mind on this whole separatist thing.

Oh, and since you allude to riot grrrl:
‘Because we refuse to be embarrassed about the mistakes and faults and choose to move forward with a political agenda bent on the freedom of all.’ - Le Tigre

just wanted to say that i see the queer block as a positive addition to the march, not an attack on the organisers who have made a big effort to make it inclusive. i felt that having just two blocks was a bit polarising.
x

Reclaim the night was started in response to the 'Yorkshire Ripper' murders when women were told to stay indoors after dark to stay safe. This is why it is women only. Gay men, transwomen, other groups at risk of violence (because there are of course many groups at risk of violence) were not told to put a curfew on their movements and not live their lives because a MAN murdering WOMEN was on the loose.

To complain that RTN is women only is about as logical as complaining that an anti racist violence protest doesn't also protest at homophobic violence. Why not get over it and organise your own event?

This demo called for solidarity in the form of a section of the march to the back- so that's what happened. At the back included a variety of genders with a variety of poltics. some at the back marched in small blocks eg the Labour students and the transqueers. So why are people making a fuss about the transqueers?

If we want to have a go at those there at the back then why not pick on the self promoting Labour students? Or the fact that the police were all over? last years march did not ask for police escorts and was therefore more empowering in my opinion.

''Your brain may say you are a woman, your brain may say you are gender queer, but the fact is you have a penis, and not only that...but a white penis. You are not welcome in the women only space. You and your white male entitlement can go fuck off''

Probably one of the most disgusting things ive ever read on here.

Oppression comes in many forms, transphobia needs to be put on the agenda and tackled not pushed to the back of the closet with all the unfinished weaved baskets and yogurt knitting.

nice one to everyone who marched, especially the trans block :)

RIP Sam

Take Back The Night, aka Reclaim The Night, is a march, rally and protest against the rape and violence against WOMEN and was originated by the Radical Feminist movement.

Radical feminists do not recognize mtf trans as women, as trans reinforce, promote and even seek to legislate sex roles (aka gender), which radical feminists have been battling to eliminate for the last 50 years. Radical feminists also do not support sex work or sex-positiveness (which includes porn and BDSM) as all these things contribute to and work in direct opposition to what this march is about. IOWs, inviting trans, sex work supporters and sex-positive supporters to this march is like inviting the anti-christ to church.

Trans cooptation of this march is typical of a male sense of entitlement and male dominating behavior as males seek to steal women's oppression while holding on to their prick power. It is this male dominating behavior that this march protests against, not for. Because in order for male dominating behavior to exist, the opposite must also exist. The subjugation of women. And what trans, sex-positive supporters, and sex workers do is expolit, eroticize and capitalize on these inequalities. Which contributes to and even promotes rape and violence against women.

I think y'all have humanism mixed up feminism. So may I suggest a march that deals with humanism? Maybe they'd be interested in supporting your quest to keep your love of inequality and male dominating/ female subjugation behaviors alive and well? After all, women aren't quite considered human yet so maybe you'd have better luck with them?

Reclaim the night originated in Bradford, around the time of the Yorkshire Ripper. Women were being told it is unsafe to go out at night on their own, and so it was important that the first Reclaim The Night there in Bradford was women-only, it made an important statement.

It wasn't the idea that all future Reclaim The Night demos should be women-only, rather they should be made up of people who need to reclaim the night. Gender-queer/trans people are at more risk than most women when walking around the streets late at night, and so should have been made welcome as an important part of this demo.

Instead they were verbally abused, physically threatened, and have faced the worst transphobia and queerphobia I have seen in a long time.

"QUEER TRANS BLOCK is a transfeminist response to the separatism, erasure and censorship of transwomen, transmen, sex workers, gendervariant, genderqueer, non-gender-normative and intersex folk within the populist feminist movement."

OK, so you are protesting against the 'separatism' that feminists, in a woman-focused march impose on you. Primarily it is radical feminism that oppose the trans/queer politics as upholding gender binary and the status quo. So why the hell do you want to JOIN the march? Kind of like POC joining onto the back of a KKK march (by the way you paint it).

"QUEER TRANS BLOCK is called in memory of Sam Roberts, genderqueer human rights activist, eco-gender warrior and trans social worker/counsellor, who organised the mixed genders Reclaim The Night March and Rally in Ipswich, December 2006. This gender inclusive RTN rally gave a voice to everyone affected by the Ipswich sex workers’ murders, especially the sex workers themselves:

The five young women that were murdered in Ipswich in 2006 were female-born women. Not trans, not queer, not anything else. I doubt, if they were still around, would label themselves as 'sex-positive' just because they were working as prostituted women. They were forced to earn that money that way because they were BORN women, and faced the life-long uphill battle that most BORN women face. You make it sound like they enjoyed 'sex work'. Such bullshit. 90% of prostituted women would get out if they could. This has been proven in Ipswich with the exit programmes put in place, where 90% or more have gotten out of prostitution. For you lot to 'celebrate' all this 'sex-pos' crap is completely disrespectful to those young women as people. I did not attend the march, primarily because there were NO restrictions (such as no men) as the murderer (at the point of organisation) had not been arrested. I most certainly did NOT want to march alongside males, any of whom could have been Steve Wright.

"As a result of this progressive community-based approach to RTN, Sam received death threats from and was even labelled as a “paedophile” by London Feminist Network, who denounced Ipswich mixed genders RTN.
Sam was reviled by separatist feminists until herm death in May 2007."

Show examples, cite sources. Otherwise, this is just flatout scaremongering. It is really doubtful that LFN smeared Sam in anyway, let alone death threats. What you have just written is libellous.

Frankly bois, you do NOT want what feminists want, so why all the fuss about crashing our 'parties' all the time? I only ever see the gender/queer bunch slagging off feminists, therefore, feminists must be your enemy (and not patriarchy). Unless of course, your TRUE purpose is to disrupt feminism?

And really, STFU about all this transphobia crap. A 'phobia' indicates fear of something. We are not fearful of you. Perhaps if you didn't carry on with your penis-privilege ways we may be more inclusive, but you don't, you behave like TYPICAL MALES, skirt or no skirt. FFS, if there was a WOC feminist march and they said "sorry, only for WOC feminists" I would respect that. But you lot can't respect boundaries can you?

Are you lot far too fucking lazy to do your own marches and protests?
Go ahead, we promise not to crash it. Stop pissing on our parade.

We haven't won the war yet: women are raped everyday in the world by men and live in fear of men, hence why Reclaim the Night must remain women only.

"It wasn't the idea that all future Reclaim The Night demos should be women-only, rather they should be made up of people who need to reclaim the night."

And you, as a male, are of course an authority on what radical feminist's intentions were.

Please stick to what you boys know about, ok? Which is basically, nothing.

"Gender-queer/trans people are at more risk than most women when walking around the streets late at night, and so should have been made welcome as an important part of this demo."

Oh goody, goody, it's "Can you top this?" A favorite game of the male-born. Of course, it's all pure poppy-cock. A woman is battered every 9 seconds, raped every minute and murdered every 15 minutes by a man that supposedly loved them. That's 3 billion people and half the world's population, bud, in which 60% of women are subjected to violence based solely on their sex. It makes the Holocaust look mild by comparison. But you'd like us to believe that trans are more at risk than women? You're joking, right?

"Instead they were verbally abused, physically threatened, and have faced the worst transphobia and queerphobia I have seen in a long time."

Waaah, what about teh menz? While I don't support abuse or physical violence in any size, shape, color or form, this march is not about the male-born. Now get over it. You are not the sun and we are not the planets that revolve all around you. I know it's hard imagining the male-born not being at the center of the entire universe, but try, ok? Sheesh, talk about a male-born sense of entitlement. Which imagines that male-born issues, no matter how small the numbers, are much more important and should always take precedent over any female-born issue, even when these numbers are approaching that of a Holocaust.

As others suggested, why don't you organize your own march? I mean, don't you find it rather assholish of you to let women to do all the work and for you boys to then march in and take over and make it all about you? When this is in part, this male dominating type behavior is what women are protesting against to begin with? Need I remind you boys that you were the whole problem to begin with and that you still remain the problem?

I like what Luckynkl said earlier:

"I think y'all have humanism mixed up feminism. So may I suggest a march that deals with humanism?"

And what Charlie said:
"Piss off"

Oh yes and I like the way that ‘queer feminist’ asks

“Is there as much power in a white dildo as a white penis??”

Assuming that women need some sort of plastic phallic symbol to get off. Says a lot and the answer is “who gives a shit”

BIG thank you to the organisers and everyone who braved the rain and came out to reclaim the night...

Despite [name removed] attempting to beat me across the face and the head with a 'North West Feminists Say No To Violence Against Women' placard and growling at me, at the end of Saturday's RTN demo, it was great to be part of 20-30 strong Queer Trans Block saying NO to violence and living in fear... And the irony is never lost on me, friend or foe...

It is really sad and pitiful that some people feel the need to use aggressive, offensive and oppressive language to assert themselves and their privilege/power over others, but I look forward to BIG demo challenging this kind of transphobia outside Parliament in the near future...

[name removed] (no network) wrote
at 10:42pm on February 29th, 2008
Lesbian Feminist Seperatist and Proud!!!

You and your anti-feminist bullshit, go fuck yourself. Wahooooo!!! "

Rebecca Dittman, Chair of The Gender Trust and a documentary filmmaker, filmed the preparation, organising and procession of the Queer Trans Block, some clips will be made available on her website soon:
 http://www.mercurialspirit.co.uk/

Another freelance journalist, filmmaker, photographer and activist has uploaded footage and photographs from RTN Queer Trans Block to:
 http://www.g7uk.com

It is truly fascinating that an institution like the Manchester Pankhurst Centre, recalling the direct actions of radical feminist Emmeline Pankhurst and the Suffragette Movement, has been able to adapt, evolve and move with the times by accepting and supporting all self-identified women (including male-to-female transsexual women), in it's safe women only space, in light of the "feminists" who appear to relish every last negative stereotype, cliche and personality traits of the "man-hating lesbian feminist" archetype, almost as much as they enjoy expelling expletives in the complete absence of coherent thought or open debate around these important issues.

Singular viewpoints and attempted character assassinations are not productive, so if you want to get involved in positive queer trans feminist actions in Greater Manchester, please get in touch via Get Bent Manchester Queers website:
 http://www.get-bent-manchester.com

Hey guys if you want to be 'women' start by not acting like men... 1st lesson of transition,

I was under the impression that feminism was against making reductive and essentialising statements like "Stop acting like men".

How dare you attack people's conduct based on gender traits? If you've got a solid argument as to why it's oppressive that's one thing, but if you're just going to pull out gender stereotyping as a means for bashing someone then that's *ridiculously* anti-feminist, and has the same effect as saying to women in general "well if you don't want to suffer sexism, you should act less like a woman". It's meaningless rubbish and it's offensive rubbish too.

Feminism is not about hating men. Grow up.

""It wasn't the idea that all future Reclaim The Night demos should be women-only, rather they should be made up of people who need to reclaim the night." And you, as a male, are of course an authority on what radical feminist's intentions were. Please stick to what you boys know about, ok? Which is basically, nothing.

From your comment, Luckynkl, I'd say person you quoted knows a whole lot more than you.

It saddens me that we still have yet to realize how similar are the goals of queer, straight, transgendered, cisgendered and all women. While the male-born feminist-hating power-hungry penis-boasting "straw transwoman" in the above arguments may want to reinforce binary gender and sabotage the movement to reinstitute patriarchy, the rest of us really do just want to be safe on the streets at night. "Take Back The Night" is a powerful focal point for everything we are trying to achieve, and of the violent society we still must overcome.

There should be a march every night of the year, but to break it up just for the sake of separating the baby-born from the other-baby-born would be missing the point. The night doesn't know or care what's in your pants now and certainly doesn't know what you were born with. Those of us who live as women regardless of the supposedly powerful penis know this to be true. You would know the instant you are in my skin - just as any man would in yours - your place and your curfew. It's not hard to figure out. This does not for an instant negate any acknowledgement of the worldwide violence towards women - it is part and parcel of it. Being born with a penis *sometimes* has its own privileges, just as being cisgendered has, but in this case they don't make us any safer at night.

While I don't claim to know the intentions of the original organizers, I feel confident guessing that the "male-born" vs. "female-born" dichotomy is an elaboration in reaction to trans visibility. Again, it is sad that we are not ready to draw the boundaries of our movement based on who IS a woman NOW. If you're always going to believe that queer and trans people are trying to mooch or sabotage then we can never achieve anything. This is not an invasion of anyone's space. We all need each other!

Also, it seems to me extremely disrespectful to disparage sex workers when those murdered are not here to defend themselves. We may never know if those women would have agreed with you or me, but it takes a LOT of nerve to appropriate their example in this way, let alone compare them to the antichrist.

In response to the hateful, disgusting and biggotted comments above:

Firstly: Transwomen are women, regardless of surgery status, or what's in their pants. I find the transphobia evident from

In the majority of social interactions (which is where sexism and misogyny manifest themselves, not as a biological fact) people are not aware of what is in someone's pants, as they don't get to see inside someone's underwear outside of fairly intimate situations. Social gendering happens based on physical cues that people can see/hear: hair, clothes, makeup, breasts or lack of, beard or lack of, voice, etc etc. This makes the focus on penises (or absence of) in determining what discrimination someone recieves really irrelevant.

A transman who for all intents and purposes is seen as male by society on a daily basis, and a transwoman (who regardless or not of whether her trans-status is obvious or hidden presents as a woman) will be treated in entirely different ways, and those ways have nothing to do with penises or lack of. The transman will receive male privilege and the transwoman will not.

Secondly, misogynistic violence doesn't just happen to 'self identifing' women. It happens to people who are perceived female; so quite often transmen and genderqueers (of either biological sex) who are perceived as female.

Thirdly: When was the last time that women were subjected to curfews? I can't actually think of a time in my living memory. To my understanding Reclaim The Night is a reaction to the blame culture that places the onus on people seen as potential victims to 'behave responsibly' i.e: not attract attention to themselves with provocative clothing, not go out after dark alone, not be anywhere perceived as dangerous. This blame culture exists as much for the openly queer and gender variant as it does women (with or without vaginas).

A boy in makeup is seen as 'asking for it' by popping down to the shops after dark for a pint of milk as a woman in makeup, probably more so. As a transman I've been perceived as both, a woman in makeup (pre-transition) and a boy in makeup (post transition) and I know which one was seen as the more likely to attract violence (and by that implication more 'reasonable' by society).

I attended the transblock for two reasons: I'm a transman that is sometimes seen as male by society but often seen as female. I experience homophobia or misogyny based on whether perpetrators see me as male or female.

I personally don't see why I should have to define myself as female in order to take part in a march, it would be dishonest and disrespectful to both the march and myself. I could have marched with the supporting male march, but I wasn't simply 'supporting the sisterhood', I was there as a person who often experiences that same sexism and that same victim-blaming.

I also feel that the homophobia that I experience when viewed (quite rightly) as an effeminate man is if anything seen as more socially acceptable than that which I receive from people perceiving me as female.

Where else should people like me march, that aren't female, but are often treated as such by society?

Lastly: Does transphobic separatism of sexes really hurt no-one? I see this as a comment that is remarkable in both its ignorance and its privilege.

It was clearly made by somebody who has never been afraid to enter a public restroom for fear of being thrown out or experiencing violence, someone who has never been to a demonstration despite fear of what cells they might end up in, someone who has never been homeless and too afraid to go to the hostels that would have them.

If you don't think that transwomen experience rape and violence as a result of being told to stay out of 'women's spaces' then you have clearly never been a (trans)woman in a male prison, or male hostel, or male bathroom..... I'd love to know what defence you feel that a transwoman's penis would be in such a situation, what inherrent power it has.

Are cisgendered women who experience sexual assualt that didn't include the use of their vagina told that they haven't experienced 'real' sexual assult? Personally that sort of statement would make me spit on the person who suggested that was the case.

I'm sorry, but you girls are a disgrace to the feminist movement.

As a feminist, I can say that we are inclusive NOT exclusive. Feminists come from all walks of life, cover all races, religions and sexes. We work for equality and integration not this bullshit separation you put out. A lot of the issues that we face in our fight maybe have a lot to do with some men oppressing women, but near all our issues are also part of bigger issues that are more enveloping and it is in changing the bigger issues that we are truly moving forward.

Going about things the way you are just shows what a narrow minded view you take and that for you it isnt about moving things forward as a society but instead trying to take over the feminist movement and steer it in directions that do not move us closer to resolving the issues. You and yours seem to actively be trying to keep the issues going, and even in some cases make them worse to feed your own small minded egotistical power-hungry agenda.

It is a shame that people being part of a movement that is aimed at resolving issues and not perpetuating them is so scary for you and makes you feel that your aggressive actions towards the people taking positive action is needed to retain your own seemingly unstable sense of self.

Let me summarise that for you.
* I would here by, on behalf of myself and many others, like to inform you that you are NOT a feminist as by taking action such as this you are working against the movement NOT for it as your delusions would have you believe.
* Instead of spending your energy attacking feminists who are working for real social change you would be better off doing something positive for the movement you seem to be trying to ostracise yourself from.
* Such highly critical and negative comments are never helpful and have not done any good. In future swing your thoughts about and give both positive and helpful critical feedback instead of blanket abuse that is obviously stemming from a position of self insecurity.

Hi, i'm Leo and I'm biologically and self identified male, and therefore the transphobic feminists who have been tearing into my friends and comrades like starved wolves can freely dismiss everything I say as the irrelevant women-hating crap.

Big hugs to the rest of you though...

Seriously though:

> Since when does a bio-male crossing to 'the other side' get to bring his male privilleges with her? [Feel free to sarcastically place the word 'her' in inverted commas].
Does society allow them the same privilleges that men get or do they look at them funny, label them as freaks and try to find out what went wrong in their childhood?

> Sorry to sound so cruel, but since when did bio+ID'd Women own the property rights to 'victim of patriachy'?

> Shouting about violence and victimisation before attacking someone cos they annoy you and they're trans doesn't make you richeous, it makes you a twat.

> Reclaiming the night by getting the Manchester Pig-scum who maintain this patriachial society to escort you? Define irony...

(name removed), get a hold of yourself, I did not try to bash you in the face with a placard. You really take yourself far too seriously. It makes me laugh.

As for the Pankhurst Centre accepting transpeople, I very much doubt it and if it is it will be through reluctance and with hands tied behind the back cos we know if any women only space dared to exclude a transwoman, they would be attacked by you lot.

Seperatism is feminist. There isn't much of a movement if women cannot organise in their own autonomous spaces. Women only spaces are fab.

(name removed), did you know...us feminist seperatists organise women only marches and spaces just to exclude you, cos we know it pisses you off. We sit there and talk about how annoying you are and how we love to exclude you....

And if you believe that, you really aint got a clue lol...

Stop thinking of women only spaces as summat negative and oppressive- they're a space for positive action for women's liberation- that is over 50% of the world's population. You can try to deny we exist, by saying woman/man is a gender dichotomy...but at the end of the day we exist and we need liberation. Bye

''and with hands tied behind the back cos we know if any women only space dared to exclude a transwoman''

why would a womans only space exclude a transwoman?

do you have levels of 'proper woman' and 'not so proper woman' in your separatist utopia?
your bigotry and oppressive words and actions are no better than the patriarchy you claim to want to smash

fucking appalling, it makes me want to puke. It might do you good to actually go and educate yourself a little on the experiences of trans people and maybe you'd see the lines that connect us rather than firing off a load of hate to divide us.

no war but the class war.

Demonizing transgendered people and other minority groups as the 'Anti-Christ' and trying to dismiss the Holocaust as 'mild' is usually characteristic of revisionism; not feminism.

Since they're so keen to denounce us transgendered people as somehow in-authentic for lacking in 'gender purity'; are, I wonder, certain self-declared 'radically separatist' people being wholly authentic about their true political leanings here?

 http://www.morethan2genders.com/

First let me identify my biological gender/sex so i do not get hit by a placard: born female and happy with it. (so back off!) Sexuality: I guess non-important for me - i would develop a sexual relationship with a person that i click with - (sex/gender is not a determining factor).

Now straight to the point....I recognise that RTN started by women as women were oppressed (and still are alot of the times). I think we should always remember women's struggles and what women go through just because they are women.

I personally truly believe that such a fight can be achieved if we unify. I mean isn't it great to have men who truly believe in equality and women's rights joining us in our struggle? isn't that what we want to achieve - reaching society and changing it? Yes, men (non-born women may not feel how it is to be a woman BUT they can think of how it is to be oppressed and stand up against this.

In my opinion i vision RTN marches as a march where everyone reflects on the oppression on women; maybe the march can start as women only to symbolise the history of the struggle; and then can be joined by another bloc to show the solidarity but also the parallels of oppression that queers/trans go through.

As an average feminist, I would in no way shape or form classify your extremist views as feminist.

They do nothing but harm the movement and myself and other feminists I know do NOT want to keep having to explain to people how your extremism isn't actually what feminism is about and that we do NOT want to be associated with you or your negative views.

Please go preach your extremism under your own separatist banner, not our feminist one and leave us alone to actually do some good in the movement and unite people to get the problems solved.

As long as your extremism keeps being falsely advertised as feminism it keeps alot of otherwise highly beneficial support away from the movement.


So for the sake of all of us who you try to falsely represent, please go away and stop being part of the problem.

Charlie,
hating men is not feminism.
Hating queers is not feminism.

You have issues. Go sort it out.

“Is there as much power in a white dildo as a white penis??”

it depends what batteries you use!

Now then Charlie,

If you can take a minute out from masturbating over the scum manifesto..
You do not have the right to tell people what they're real gender is?If they identify as women then thats what they are. I am a feminist lesbian.Your type disgust me,from what ive seen most of you are buzz cut bearing bull dykes anyway.Men have done me wrongs in my life but i don't have a deep seated hatered of them!Your grasps of feminism are ridiculous and your rethoric bull shit amuses me greatly.Get your head out of your probably hairy arsehole and look around you.Stop venting frustrations from your meaningless poverty stricken life on innocent people.Your arguments are flawed and vicious.It's easy to slander someone over the internet as i'm doing now.But i know you and i go to the same events and i know who you are so i think i may take the opperunity to give you a harsh talking to.
Now i sugguest you chill out go get laid even (its probably got cobwebs) and write a message of appology for your poisionus bollocks.

just felt the need to comment about 'penis privelige' as in WTF!

how can anyone argue that a transwoman is seeking to use their 'male entitlement' because they, at some point in their lives, had a penis. It's like arguing that Stephen Hawkins is using non-disabled privelige because at some point in his life he wasn't disabled ie. it makes bugger all bloody sense.

You shouldn't judge someone by abilities or attributes they once held or are actively seeking to abandon it's a ridiculous generalisation to make and assumes that we are all incapable of change.

Furthermore I have met and been friends with prostitutes who loved their work and wouldn't have swapped it for the world. Your assumption that all prostitutes want to be 'saved' is yet another gross and insulting generalisation and is precisely as sexist as the assumption that woman are only as good as their ability to be an adequate housewife.]

I'd advise you to go and read some slightly more diverse gender and feminist theory than whatever claptrap Julie Bindel is spouting this week.