CO 2 'Follows Temperature Rises' in Past Climate Changes
Don Beck | 21.01.2008 18:05 | Climate Chaos | Ecology
This is unequivocally true. The three ice cores of Greenland and the Antarctic have all shown this to be a fact.
What is not clearly known is what caused the initial temperature rises.
There have been several things that have triggered the 'climate changes' of the past several million years; be it celestial impacts, or volcanic activity, or disruptions of the ocean currents, or the inconsistencies of the Earth's orbit around the Sun. But then, the CO 2 gets involved and pushes the climate system further than the original instigating factor(s). Or as the scientists explain it, the 'CO 2 amplifies the changes'.
The denialists use the fact about the CO 2 trailing temperature consistently as if that proves CO 2 cannot heat the planet. Just as they do with the fact that the Antarctic ice sheet is growing in the central region by a very small amount, they take one kernal from the cob and ignore the rest of the story.[1] It's a tactic that is working quite well for them on unsuspecting people who are not paying attention to news coming from the climate scientists.
We all secretly hope that the skeptics are right. No one wants to see the climate of the earth deteriorate. But it is a very dis-honest and very harmful practice to confuse the issue of the changing climate.
Below is a portion of something that has been circulated widely on the web by the denialists (many shown to be funded by the energy giants) and a leading climatologist's response to it by Dr. Richard Alley:
***********
-MYTH - Carbon dioxide changes in the atmosphere cause temperature changes on the earth.
-FACT: A report in the journal 'Science' in January of this year showed using information from ice cores with high time resolution that
since the last ice age, every time when the temperature and carbon dioxide levels have shifted, the carbon dioxide change
happened AFTER the temperature change, so that man-made global warming theory has put effect before cause. This shows that reducing carbon dioxide emissions is a futile King Canute exercise! What's more, both water vapor and methane are far more powerful greenhouse gases than carbon dioxide but they are ignored.
***********
If you keep up with the climate science, you will know that no scientist has ever said that "the only thing that has ever caused a change in the climate is CO 2". That would be a ridiculous statement because many things have an impact on the climate and they are cumulative. It is just that in the past century, the CO 2 has risen exponentially faster than ever before to a level that has not been seen for at least 650,000 years.
Here is Penn. St. University Professor of Geosciences Dr. Richard Alley's response via email to the "Myth - Fact" above:
***********
...some of the ideas have a germ of truth, but are nonetheless inaccurate representations of what we know. First, the paleoclimatic record is not the main factor in our understanding that rising CO2 leads to rising temperature, all else being equal. The basic physics of that are unavoidable, have been known for over a century, and especially are based on military research from WWII and just after (the hot exhaust from a high-flying bomber makes it a target in war, but must be seen through the “swamp” of CO2 and H2O and other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere; the military thus figured out radiative transfer quite accurately, and those results, combined with the observed rise in CO2, lead to warming; things such as the paleoclimatic record then confirm this result).
It is true that our central estimate has CO2 lagging temperature on glacial-interglacial timescales. This is expected; the pacemaker of the ice ages is in features of Earth’s orbit, these cause changes in many things in the earth system including CO2, and the CO2 amplifies changes.
The observation that southern temperatures have often largely ignored southern sunshine has so far been explained only through the influence of CO2 changes, and is successfully explained that way. The argument advanced in the material you sent: CO2 lags temperature, so CO2 cannot cause temperature change-- seems accurate to some readers, but is really not solid at all. Consider another positive feedback: you overspend your credit card and go into debt, interest payments then accrue forcing you further into debt, and you end up going broke. The cause of the problem is the overspending, interest payments clearly lag debt, but the interest clearly contributes to the growing debt and your bankruptcy. The appended materials apparently would see that interest payments lagged debt and would then argue that interest payments cannot contribute to debt or bankruptcy. Put that way, I hope that the erroneous nature of the argument is clear.
Per molecule at a moment, methane is more potent as a greenhouse gas than CO2. But, methane lasts a few years, CO2 a few centuries (and there is a complex discussion of that; some comes out very quickly, some lasts for millennia...), and CO2 is already much more abundant than methane, so the focus is rightly more on CO2.
Water vapor does matter, but we know of no way to independently change water vapor a lot—put water vapor up, and it is mostly rained out within a week or two. But, warm the air and it picks up more water vapor from the ocean; water vapor is primarily a feedback acting as a “slave” to CO2 and other things. And the statement that these are ignored is just absurd if you read, say, the IPCC WG1 SPM AR4.
Notice that in a sound-bite world, my long explanations require more attention than do your correspondents short, pithy, seemingly accurate ones. It is a tad frustrating.
--Richard Alley
***********
I cannot add a thing except that the deniers being funded by the energy giants will continue to exploit this fact on those who are not aware, and of course do not want to believe that the climate will continually get worse because of Global Heating (a more precise term than the polite 'Global Warming' that sounds so minuscule).
Don Beck
[I wish to thank Dr. Alley for his time and his expertise on this subject.]
References:
1] The Antarctic Ice Sheet Is Growing?, 1/8/08
http://sydney.indymedia.org.au/story/antarctic-ice-sheet-growing
There have been several things that have triggered the 'climate changes' of the past several million years; be it celestial impacts, or volcanic activity, or disruptions of the ocean currents, or the inconsistencies of the Earth's orbit around the Sun. But then, the CO 2 gets involved and pushes the climate system further than the original instigating factor(s). Or as the scientists explain it, the 'CO 2 amplifies the changes'.
The denialists use the fact about the CO 2 trailing temperature consistently as if that proves CO 2 cannot heat the planet. Just as they do with the fact that the Antarctic ice sheet is growing in the central region by a very small amount, they take one kernal from the cob and ignore the rest of the story.[1] It's a tactic that is working quite well for them on unsuspecting people who are not paying attention to news coming from the climate scientists.
We all secretly hope that the skeptics are right. No one wants to see the climate of the earth deteriorate. But it is a very dis-honest and very harmful practice to confuse the issue of the changing climate.
Below is a portion of something that has been circulated widely on the web by the denialists (many shown to be funded by the energy giants) and a leading climatologist's response to it by Dr. Richard Alley:
***********
-MYTH - Carbon dioxide changes in the atmosphere cause temperature changes on the earth.
-FACT: A report in the journal 'Science' in January of this year showed using information from ice cores with high time resolution that
since the last ice age, every time when the temperature and carbon dioxide levels have shifted, the carbon dioxide change
happened AFTER the temperature change, so that man-made global warming theory has put effect before cause. This shows that reducing carbon dioxide emissions is a futile King Canute exercise! What's more, both water vapor and methane are far more powerful greenhouse gases than carbon dioxide but they are ignored.
***********
If you keep up with the climate science, you will know that no scientist has ever said that "the only thing that has ever caused a change in the climate is CO 2". That would be a ridiculous statement because many things have an impact on the climate and they are cumulative. It is just that in the past century, the CO 2 has risen exponentially faster than ever before to a level that has not been seen for at least 650,000 years.
Here is Penn. St. University Professor of Geosciences Dr. Richard Alley's response via email to the "Myth - Fact" above:
***********
...some of the ideas have a germ of truth, but are nonetheless inaccurate representations of what we know. First, the paleoclimatic record is not the main factor in our understanding that rising CO2 leads to rising temperature, all else being equal. The basic physics of that are unavoidable, have been known for over a century, and especially are based on military research from WWII and just after (the hot exhaust from a high-flying bomber makes it a target in war, but must be seen through the “swamp” of CO2 and H2O and other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere; the military thus figured out radiative transfer quite accurately, and those results, combined with the observed rise in CO2, lead to warming; things such as the paleoclimatic record then confirm this result).
It is true that our central estimate has CO2 lagging temperature on glacial-interglacial timescales. This is expected; the pacemaker of the ice ages is in features of Earth’s orbit, these cause changes in many things in the earth system including CO2, and the CO2 amplifies changes.
The observation that southern temperatures have often largely ignored southern sunshine has so far been explained only through the influence of CO2 changes, and is successfully explained that way. The argument advanced in the material you sent: CO2 lags temperature, so CO2 cannot cause temperature change-- seems accurate to some readers, but is really not solid at all. Consider another positive feedback: you overspend your credit card and go into debt, interest payments then accrue forcing you further into debt, and you end up going broke. The cause of the problem is the overspending, interest payments clearly lag debt, but the interest clearly contributes to the growing debt and your bankruptcy. The appended materials apparently would see that interest payments lagged debt and would then argue that interest payments cannot contribute to debt or bankruptcy. Put that way, I hope that the erroneous nature of the argument is clear.
Per molecule at a moment, methane is more potent as a greenhouse gas than CO2. But, methane lasts a few years, CO2 a few centuries (and there is a complex discussion of that; some comes out very quickly, some lasts for millennia...), and CO2 is already much more abundant than methane, so the focus is rightly more on CO2.
Water vapor does matter, but we know of no way to independently change water vapor a lot—put water vapor up, and it is mostly rained out within a week or two. But, warm the air and it picks up more water vapor from the ocean; water vapor is primarily a feedback acting as a “slave” to CO2 and other things. And the statement that these are ignored is just absurd if you read, say, the IPCC WG1 SPM AR4.
Notice that in a sound-bite world, my long explanations require more attention than do your correspondents short, pithy, seemingly accurate ones. It is a tad frustrating.
--Richard Alley
***********
I cannot add a thing except that the deniers being funded by the energy giants will continue to exploit this fact on those who are not aware, and of course do not want to believe that the climate will continually get worse because of Global Heating (a more precise term than the polite 'Global Warming' that sounds so minuscule).
Don Beck
[I wish to thank Dr. Alley for his time and his expertise on this subject.]
References:
1] The Antarctic Ice Sheet Is Growing?, 1/8/08
http://sydney.indymedia.org.au/story/antarctic-ice-sheet-growing
Don Beck
Comments
Hide the following 13 comments
Piss off back to your cronies at ExxonMobil...
21.01.2008 18:14
Editors, remove this tripe from the NEWSwire, thanks.
disgusted
Read first
21.01.2008 18:41
Glen
ohmyword
21.01.2008 19:33
Looks like we have a new class of heritic for the robot 'greens' ...
... that's right son, put the boot in ... don't take this 'rational debate' crap, it's just a cover for crypto fascists, anti-semites and deniers of government sanctioned history ...
Why, something should be done before people see this filth and start to make their own minds up about the evidence ...
... I know, have a jumble sale or make yer own leaflets up an stuff ... beat up some paediatritions why not ...
(snooze)
jackslucid
e-mail: jackslucid@hotmail.com
read again
21.01.2008 23:46
People should read the whole article before commenting on them, whether or not they're a 'supporter' or 'denier'!
d
It was an intentional ploy
22.01.2008 05:26
Apparently it didn't work so well.
'disgusted' read the first two lines and hammered away without getting the jist of the text.
Oh well, all we can do is try.
Don Beck
strange
22.01.2008 07:43
Thanks for droppin in the notion tht you go to 'uni'. What are u studying n have u assummed that none of us have?
Here is the opportunity for you to backtrack some more mr robot:
jackslucid
e-mail: jackslucid@hotmail.com
cage-rattling
22.01.2008 12:21
Excellent article.
phats
Panic Sets In
22.01.2008 14:38
I for one appreciate the articles you post here.
Some related audio, the latest Radio EcoShock:
PANIC SETS IN Sudden & Disruptive Climate Change
2 interviews; 2 speech clips: Michael MacCracken, James H. Kunstler, Ross Gelbspan, Nafeez Ahmed
1 hr - 56 MB
http://www.ecoshock.net/eshock08/ES_080118_Show.mp3
The Nafeez Ahmed talk in full is available here and is excellent: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/01/388961.html
More from EcoShock: http://www.ecoshock.org/
Chris
Ok so I stand corrected...
22.01.2008 15:31
first poster aka "disgusted"
To: disgusted
23.01.2008 02:29
I should apologize to you, and I do. I too get very disgusted with the level of understanding in my community and especially here in the US. We, the biggest polluters of all, are doing almost NOTHING to lessen the heating of the fricking globe.
When I ask my friends what they think......they just laugh and call me the names they all use.
The term disgusted doesn't really put it in the correct frame for me. I am outraged. I am floored that the US media doesn't publish reports from scientists around the world of the past two or three years showing how the numbers are ACCELERATING, and they are all scratching their heads trying to figure out why.
But then I remember that the media and two members of our Congress were sent letters with anthrax within a month of 911. The anthrax was later proven to come from a US military facility.
That attempted murder (actually 5 people did die) worked miraculously on the press and the Congress. Just look back at how both have caved in to what ever the Bush (industrial war complex)
administration has wanted.
Outraged, ashamed, screwed.......there are more.
Don Beck
Don't get it
23.01.2008 09:30
Climate change was being pushed by elite bodies such as Club of Rome, Trilateral Commission and oil barons. Environmentalists gets far more money from governments and other sources than do he 'climate change deniers'. And, there is a dangerous, white supremacist, population reduction agenda behind it. It is noticeable that the UK population have become far more sympathetic to the global warming agenda since being told that China and India are becoming economic rivals.
We are told that methane is far more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. It is not targeted so much became there are tiny amounts in the atmosphere. Yet, CO2 makes up less than 0.5% of gases in the atmosphere. How does 0.5% lead to catastrophic global warming?
If you can't address any of these points without insults and accusations of payments from ExxonMobile, don't bother.
Extracts from -
A CENTURY OF WAR: Anglo-American oil politics and the New World Order
William Engdahl
Chapter 9, Running the world economy in reverse: Who made the 1970s oil shocks?
Developing the Anglo-American green agenda
p143
'It was no accident that, following the oil shock recession of 1974-75, a growing part of the population of western Europe, especially in Germany, began talking for the first time in the postwar period about 'limits to growth', or threats to the environment, and began to question their faith in the principle of industrial growth and technological progress. Very few people realised the extent to which their new 'opinions' were being carefully manipulated from the top by a network established by the same Anglo-American finance and industry circles that lay behind the Saltsjobaden oil strategy.'
p144
'Beginning in the 1970s, an awesome propaganda offensive was launched from select Anglo-American think tanks and journals, intended to shape a new 'limits to growth' agenda, which would ensure the 'success' of the dramatic oil shock strategy. The American oilman present at the May 1973 Saltsjobaden meeting of the Bilderberg group, Robert O. Anderson, was a central figure in the implementation of the ensuing Anglo-American ecological agenda. It was to become one of the most successful frauds in history.
'Anderson and his Atlantic Richfield Oil Co. funneled millions of dollars through their Atlantic Richfield Foundation into select organisations to target nuclear energy. One of the prime beneficiaries of Anderson's largesse was a group called Friends of the Earth, which was organised in this time with a $200,000 grant from Anderson.'
'The director of Friends of the Earth in France, Brice Lalonde, was the Paris partner of the Rockefeller (oil and banks) family law firm Coudert Brothers, and became Mitterand's environment minister in 1989.'
'British uranium mining giant Rio Tinto Zinc secretly deployed Friends of the Earth in Australia to mobilise opposition to the pending Japanese agreement (on uranium), resulting some months later in the fall of Whitlam's government, Friends of the Earth had 'friends' in very high places in London and Washington.'
p145
'From the outset, the June 1972 Stockholm UN Conference on the Environment was run by operatives of Anderson's Aspen Institute. Aspen board member Maurice Strong, a Canadian oilman from Petro-Canada, chaired the Stockholm conference. Aspen also provided financing to create an international zero-growth network under UN auspices, the International Institute for Environment and Development, whose board included Robert O. Anderson, Robert McNamara, Strong and British Labour Party's Roy Jenkins. The new organisation immediately produced a book, 'Only one Earth', by Rockefeller University associate Rene Dubos and British Malthusian Barbara Ward (Lady Jackson).'
insidejob
CO2s importance
24.01.2008 11:24
insidejob: We haven't seen positive feedback loops on the co2-temperature system as of yet, but there is a danger of these becoming more important. With increased oceanic temperature the oceans could become a net co2 source rather than sink, as well as increasing methane emissions from thawing tundra peat and methane hydrate deposits. So it's not prominent now, but may well become so, accelerating the initial change, and has been important in the past. The difference here is the speed of the change, what took a 1000 years at the end of the last age were accelerating to happen within 100 years, not giving enough time for species migration and adaption etc.
Carbon Dioxide is not present in great quantities in the atmosphere, but it still provides a key component of the Earth's radiative balance. About 33 degrees Celsius of warming comes from water vapour, and 6 degrees from co2, from a norm average of between 180 and 280 parts per million (indeed very small quantities, but think quality not quantity! This 6 degrees is essential, but more can do damage). The difference here is that at the moment atmospheric water vapour content is stable whereas co2 is increasing in concentration. Methane is 3000 odd times more powerful, but has a smaller residence time as ch4 oxidises to form co2 and h20, and so is less of a worry for the long term (although still important for short term reduction targets). Co2 sticks around for thousands as opposed to hundreds of years, only being reduced and stabilised by the activities of life.
From the text you quoted it seems you are arguing that the environmental movement is a tool of the elite capitalist class to stop third world development that threatens their power base. The movement could well indirectly benefit them in this way, but it does not 'prove' climate change and pollution measures are all a hoax at all. I'd also say that whether or not zero growth helps them or not, infinite growth cannot be maintained on a finite planet and so will end eventually, either gently or catastrophically. Massive growth has been the cause of the creation of resource depletion and pollution, and we need to move to a more stable system economic footing based on cycles and systems as opposed to linear consumption and pollution. I'm no fan of big capitalists, but their indirect support does not negate the need for sustainability by any means.
d
Do environmentalists fool people?
25.01.2008 10:51
I should here say that I do not dismiss environmentalist concerns, particularly pollution, which, of course, kills people.
Firstly, environmentalists attack ‘climate change deniers’ who are scientists on the basis that they take funds from big oil. One of the most important financial backers of climate change are the Rockefellers, big oil par excellance. The term ‘sustainable development’ came from a book where David Rockefeller did the introduction. The basis of the ‘big oil’ attack on ‘climate change deniers’ has no basis.
The target of the global power elite is not just the Third World. Rockefeller agent, Kissinger, in the 1970s (1974, National Security Plan of Action 200), produced a paper that argued that the world’s population must decline by 3 billion. In that decade, US officials were openly espousing Malthusian ideas. Their plans include white people but only white people:
http://www.ghanaian-chronicle.com/thestory.asp?id=2490
Ghanian Chronicle
THE WORLD`S POOR NEW ENEMY
By Phelim McAleer | Posted: Friday, June 22, 2007
‘I gathered up extra funding and the documentary Mine Your Own Business is playing this week on Ghana ‘s television stations. The film will shock and upset those who, like myself, unquestioningly believed environmentalists were a force for good in the world.
‘In the process of producing Mine your Own Business, I started looking beyond Romania and found a similar pattern in very different villages in Madagascar and Chile.
‘The attitude of environmentalists in Madagascar was particularly disturbing. In the documentary Mark Fenn, the country representative of the World Wildlife Fund talks about opposing economic development because it will destroy the “quaintness” of an impoverished town.
‘Mr. Fenn, who has a luxury boat and ocean home opposes a mine that will brings jobs, schools and healthcare facilities to one of the most impoverished town in one of the most impoverished countries of the world. He arrogantly tells how the people are not interested in educating their children or in economic development. Not surprisingly interviews with local people tell a very different story. They want development, they want their children educated and taken out of poverty.
‘This is a serious warning for the people of Ghana. Already your mining industry is under attack from mostly foreign NGOs and environmental groups. Now when you try and extract your recently discovered oil they will discover a fish or worm that must be preserved and campaign for the oil to stay buried. In their campaigning of course they never see the large animal that needs preserving – the impoverished human beings…’
‘…It seems that in reality they care little about preserving human beings. We are a blot on the landscape and development is an evil that must be stopped…’
Why don’t we hear from environmentalists about their concerns about the influence on the movement of the power elite?
Secondly, when environmentalists promote the dangers of climate change to the public, they never tell them:
A. there’s less than 0.5% of CO2 in the atmosphere;
B. how much CO2 leads to catasphrophic climate change;
C. since the industrial revolution, average temperature has risen by 0.7%, and
D. the basis of the ‘temperature rise thesis’ is a historical temperature rise series that began when average temperature was at its lowest around 1850.
A. If the public were told this, they would begin to doubt the CO2 cause of climate change, so environmentalists don’t tell them.
B. The public aren’t told this because what would scientists tell them? They wouldn’t say 3% because it would take too long to get there and the issue wouldn’t regarded as urgent. They wouldn’t say 0.6% because everyone would see that nothing would happen and the whole argument would be discredited. Therefore, they don’t tell them anything
C. The public aren’t told that because 0.7% don’t seem much
D. The public aren’t told that because it would discredit the whole climate change thesis.
Therefore, climate change communication is based on ignorance and necessarily so.
The reinforcement argument sounds good but makes no sense. By their own admission, average temperature has risen by 0.7% due to a CO2 increase of 30%. Think about it. Does that mean another 30% increase is needed for another 0.7% temperature increase? If so, why the urgency? What happened to reinforcement? If there has been no reinforcement from the time of the industrial revolution, why should there be now?
insidejob