Labours Zionist friends have landed the party in trouble again.
Argos | 29.11.2007 18:58
Labours Zionist friend have landed the party in trouble again. Less than 6 months after Lord Levy (Pro-Israeli fundraiser for Labour) was questioned during the cash for honours affair. Labour's new chief fundraiser Jon Mendelsohn (Former Labour friends of Israel chair) has landed the party in trouble again.
By accepting donations for Labour from Jewish businessman and former Labour Friends of Israel activist David Abrahams via 3rd parties, Jon Mendelshon has contributed towards tarnishing the image of the party in public. Jon Mendelsohn is listed as the 28th most influential person in ‘British Jewry’ by the Jewish Chronicle earlier this year. The paper wrote: ‘At ease in the corridors of power, Mendelsohn has the contacts and know-how to advance Israel's case in his LFI role.’ Paying for a pro-Israeli view in Labour politics may soon backfire on LFI activists and bring the Labour party into jeopardy.
By accepting donations for Labour from Jewish businessman and former Labour Friends of Israel activist David Abrahams via 3rd parties, Jon Mendelshon has contributed towards tarnishing the image of the party in public. Jon Mendelsohn is listed as the 28th most influential person in ‘British Jewry’ by the Jewish Chronicle earlier this year. The paper wrote: ‘At ease in the corridors of power, Mendelsohn has the contacts and know-how to advance Israel's case in his LFI role.’ Paying for a pro-Israeli view in Labour politics may soon backfire on LFI activists and bring the Labour party into jeopardy.
Argos
Comments
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Nonsense Labour must take responsibility
29.11.2007 19:31
Strepsil
disgusted
29.11.2007 20:48
but then you guys probably wouldnt do anything about that no protests nothing not even an article on this site
sick
Anti Semitism
29.11.2007 23:14
Also not all jewish people support the state of israel and not all israelis support the state of israel.
lotek & frappi
Powerful zionists
30.11.2007 07:18
It appears that Jon Mendelsohn, as chair of Labour Friends of Israel, did ask Abrahams to leave the group
President of the Zionist Federation, Eric Moonman said : “I know David (Abrahams) well and have travelled with him on a number of occasions. He is a quiet, thoughtful man. There would have been no reason for him to assume he was doing anything wrong or illegal.
The Jewish Chronicle quote appears to be accurate:
Lord Levy was ranked 3rd in the same list.
"Lord Levy
3. Fundraiser extraordinaire, Lord Levy’s rise from a modest Hackney upbringing to the Whitehall corridors of power was achieved via a music-industry career. He met Tony Blair in 1993 at a party hosted by QC Eldred Tabachnik — soon to be Board of Deputies president. Blair and Levy became firm friends and tennis partners and Levy put his persuasive powers to work as Labour’s chief fundraiser. With Blair in Number 10, Levy was appointed the PM’s personal Middle East envoy, travelling regularly to the region. Communally, he is credited with helping raise “tens of millions” for Jewish Care, of which he is president. As JFS president, he was instrumental in financing the school’s move to Kenton. He has been questioned by police over the “cash for peerages” affair, but strenuously denies any wrong-doing."
They do seem to be closely linked to zionism, capital and the corridors of power.
Would you say that the Jewish Chronicle and TotallyJewish are anti-semitic for talking about these things? Maybe you think they are making it up? Or it just shouldn't be discussed in polite company?
If this kind of information is being spread by zionist organs, it can't be surprising if people start to pick up on it.
fact checker
A second ‘Jewish scandal’
30.11.2007 07:53
Communal leaders expressed concern that the situation may mirror the cash-for-peerages affair, in which, after a long criminal investigation, Labour fundraiser Lord Levy faced no charges.
The two main figures in this week’s controversy are Jon Mendelsohn, the Prime Minister’s election campaign fundraiser, and property magnate David Abrahams, who is accused of breaking the law by using third parties to disguise donations of £600,000 to Labour.
Mr Mendelsohn, an ex-chairman of Labour Friends of Israel, wrote to Mr Abrahams, a member of the Jewish Labour Movement, last Thursday thanking him for his “help and support over many years” and offering to tell him of Labour’s future plans. MPs questioned whether he knew about Mr Abrahams’ methods, which break the law on political donations.
But the furore had a “whiff of antisemitism about it”, Labour MP Andrew Dismore told the JC. “People are looking for links to Jewish interests and evidence of a Jewish conspiracy. The press are turning every stone to find one.”
The Hendon MP said he did not believe the case would have received such intensive coverage “if it did not involve Jews. The undercurrent of antisemitism is worrying.” Jewish Leadership Council member Brian Kerner said: “I am sure the whole affair will have an
effect on the community.” Describing Mr Abrahams as a “good guy”, he warned: “It has an added effect of antisemitism — it won’t do us any good.”
Paul Usiskin, Labour supporter and co-chair of Peace Now UK, said: “It doesn’t do the reputation of people communally linked to Israel any good to find themselves willingly or unwillingly at the centre of matters to do with politics and money.
“I hope that, in contrast to previous issues of this kind, people do not link historical relations between Jews and financial affairs.”
Board of Deputies chief executive Jon Benjamin said: “There is wide concern in this story and clearly there is a potential for it to turn against us. We have been there before.”
MP Louise Ellman, chair of the Jewish Labour Movement, said the affair was “not a religious issue” but said she would like to see the investigation go ahead “as swiftly as possible”.
Mill Hill Rabbi Yitzchak Schochet, who earlier claimed that his congregant, Lord Levy, was “hung out to dry” by the media, said he would hesitate to draw a parallel between the two events, not least because “Lord Levy had done nothing wrong, while in this case something wrong had been done by all accounts, and admitted by everyone including the Prime Minister”.
Bernard Josephs
Homepage:
http://www.jewishchronicle.com/home.aspx?ParentId=m11&SecId=11&AId=56810&ATypeId=1
lotek & frappi
30.11.2007 09:06
No doubt this will get hidden as nobody is allowed to discuss The Jewish Problem with this site.
A bit like the Potsdam meeting all over again.
Sorry I forgot that never happned and neither did Auschwitz, Treblinka, Buchenwald, Belsen, Sachsenhausen. If they did then it was Mossad and Shérūt ha-Bītāhōn who did it.
I'm off to spread the Plague.
Catch me later!
Fiddler on the Roof
Can you engage constructively?
30.11.2007 10:04
Well, it should get hidden because of this:
"Sorry I forgot that never happned and neither did Auschwitz, Treblinka, Buchenwald, Belsen, Sachsenhausen. If they did then it was Mossad and Shérūt ha-Bītāhōn who did it."
because that is patently bullshit - and is also holocaust denial.
What is the "Jewish problem" here? Why do you want to ignore the fact that three prominent zionists are involved in the labour party finance scandal? Even though it appears to be true?
From the article quoted above:
"But the furore had a “whiff of antisemitism about it”, Labour MP Andrew Dismore told the JC. “People are looking for links to Jewish interests and evidence of a Jewish conspiracy. The press are turning every stone to find one.”
The Hendon MP said he did not believe the case would have received such intensive coverage “if it did not involve Jews. The undercurrent of antisemitism is worrying.” "
That seems wrong to me - I think any Labour Party funding scandal would be scrutinised in great detail right now, regardless of the ethnicity of the donors and party officials involved.
Do you actually have a way of explaining the problem you have with discussion of the matter, without accusing anyone who refers to the matter as holocaust deniers and Judeaphobics?
Or do you just hope that no-one will dare go there in case they get called names?
If there are no zionists in this scandal, please make that clear.
If you can quote the bit of the report that says "Jews run the world", please make that clear, because it isn't immediately apparent.
fact checker
Not really.
30.11.2007 10:51
No, but they aren't advancing the idea that any member of the Jewish Diaspora in the political system is an agent of a Jewish conspiracy, even if they are pro-Israel. Believe it or not, but there are many Jews who do not see the idea of the state of Israel as a bad idea. Many don't even see a natural connection between supporting Israel and supporting the attack on Palestine. Many believe in the Two State Solution. I disagree, but also don't tend view most "Zionists" as sinister agents of darkness who worm their way into every corridor of power with a view to make the whole world subservient to the state of Israel.
This site frequently hosts material fixated on Jews "in power", Jewish sleeper agents, Jews ruling America, Jews ruling the world, Jews behind every terrorist attack that ever happened, articles from holocaust deniers...
This place has become a left-wing (?) Jew baiting outlet.
What is missing is what is so very telling. The most sickening abscence is that the Israeli attack on Palestine gets hardly any coverage at all. Almost no significant grassroots material and usually when Israel is on topic it is in reaction to mainstream coverage.
Shame on you!
Fiddler on the Roof
this is all very interesting
30.11.2007 11:07
call me thick but until I heard a discussion on R4 last night about anti-semitism and Labour Friends of Israel I hadn't even noticed that Jewish names Abrahams/Mendehlson were involved. When citing anti-semitism it is useful if people can define exactly what they mean. Are these people who practice Judaism and hence are bing persecuted for their religious ideas? Or are they people who claim to belong to the Jewish 'race'?. If the latter is the case then it would be worthwhile if people reviewed some critiques of the basic idea of race which is now commonly recognized as a social construction rather than some biological reality
"From the 1990s, some writers have identified a New antisemitism, a form of antisemitism coming simultaneously from the left, the far right, and radical Islam, which tends to focus on opposition to Zionism and a Jewish homeland in the State of Israel, and which may deploy traditional antisemitism motifs.[4] Proponents of the concept argue that anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism, anti-globalization, third worldism, and demonization of Israel or double standards applied to its conduct may be linked to antisemitism, or constitute disguised antisemitism.
Critics of the concept argue that it conflates anti-Zionism with antisemitism, defines legitimate criticism of Israel too narrowly and demonization too broadly, trivializes the meaning of antisemitism, and exploits antisemitism in order to silence debate.[5][6]"
In this respect is it wrong to scrutinize the work of groups campaigning on behalf of the state of Israel and its right to determine its foreign policy as it sees fit. It really is little surprise that lobbyists for the Zionist cause are active here since AIPAC in the US has developed its connections for quite some time
in a democracy people have a right to ask questions about whos paying whom for influcence
blackbyrd
can+worms=bollocks
30.11.2007 11:23
anarchoteapot
Fiddler on the roof
30.11.2007 11:32
Here's whats on the front page right now regarding Israel/Palestine:
Annapolis: US prepares Palestinian civil war, rallies Arab support against Iran
Chris Marsden | 30.11.2007 00:25 | Analysis | World
Sheffield Vigil for Palestine Photos
Campaign launched to save Al Masrah' villagers.
Different Venue, Same Hollow Promises
Freedom to Protest March: Stop Hitler's bomb builders buying Brighton base.
Palestine Today 112907
When the Roadmap is a One Way Street
Nixon Papers Recall Concerns on Israel’s Nukes
Arab States Brand Annapolis Futile Media Event
Palestine Today 112807
We’ll Come to Gaza - END 'al Nakba' NOW!
Gaza Fears Israeli Attacks
Annapolis (by Latuff)
Two Events on International Day of Palestine Solidarity 29th November
Tragedy and Travesty at Annapolis
Facts Surrounding Israel's Collective Punishment of Gaza
Audio from Camden PSC Palestine Solidarity Festival
Palestine Today 112607
So, 6 pieces on Annapolis - which is current
7 pieces from pro-Palestinian campaign(er)s
4 pieces from Palestinian sources
and 1 piece from the NYT on Israel's bomb.
In addition there is this article.
So, when you claim that:
"This site frequently hosts material fixated on Jews "in power", Jewish sleeper agents, Jews ruling America, Jews ruling the world, Jews behind every terrorist attack that ever happened, articles from holocaust deniers..."
it doesn't seem to be proven by looking at the stuff on the front page - and your claim that "the Israeli attack on Palestine gets hardly any coverage at all" doesn't seem to ring true either.
At least you've stopped slinging around the names - now can you try focussing on what is actually on the site.
Do you think the front page really relects the agenda you have accused Indymedia of - ie a tendency to "view most "Zionists" as sinister agents of darkness who worm their way into every corridor of power with a view to make the whole world subservient to the state of Israel."
Because I think you're making it up.
And I don't think the original poster is claiming that Mendelsohn/Levy or Abrahams are trying to run the world.
You haven't shown where s/he says that either.
I think most readers of site are aware that:
1) Not all Jews are zionists.
2) Not all zionists are Jews
3) There is a range of political difference within zionism, although ultimately it rests on support of the dispossession of an indigenous people,
4) That the majority of Jews are people just getting on with their lives as best as possible, without causing harm to, nor intending to harm anyone.
At the same time, there is also a realisation that zionism is a powerful political ideology, and that its lobby has influence within the corridors of power. Whilst its leaders claim to be acting in the interests of all Jews, many Jews say "not in my name".
The crude stereotypes seem to be in your posts for some reason.
fact checker
fact checker
30.11.2007 12:13
Why don't you do it yourself as an experiment? Go through the wire and and list every post that covers Israel/Jews/Zionists. Now compare them to say UK animal rights posts. Tell me that it is a reasonable ratio for a site supposedly here for UK activism.
Do a search of the site for stories that claim Mossad/Israel are behind terrorist attacks. Stories that fixate on 'The Jewish Lobby'. Stories that accuse people of being Jewish agents.
Now compare them with the frequency of reports of news from Palestine about current issues, filed by grassroots activists (not reposted from blogs, the mainstream or generalised coverage). It's a safe bet that the Jewish Conspiracy is going to outnumber real grassroots coverage of events in Palestine.
More interestingly, look and see how many who people post on Israel also post on grassroots Palestinian news. I can tell you know that most of the coverage on Israel will not be from any Israelis, nor even Jews, let alone anyone who actually has any personal experience/relevance to the region.
That is the shame of it!
What would you make of a site that was meant for UK activism but had a daily digest of stories about Africans or the number of gay politicians and had very few writers that were either African or gay... I'll assume you would find that highly suspect.
Fiddler on the Roof
Fiddler on the hoof?
30.11.2007 12:25
Despite your claims there doesn't seem to be one for 'crude sterotypes about Jews'.
Post up the links (so what if the server catches on fire) which prove your thesis - or I'll just be thinking that all you can do is make stuff up.
I'm certainly not going to spending hours showing that you are wrong - its up to you to show how accurate you are.
I've done the front page.......... it didn't support your thesis.
A fair number of uk activists, including myself, have been to Palestine to see for ourselves.
Its nigh on impossible to tell what race or religion a poster is from their handle. To suggest that only Jews (erm surely Israelis) and Palestinians have the right to comment on the injustice that is being done to Palestinians is patently nonsense.
I still maintain that your posts are the ones with reams of crude stereotypes.
fact checker
blackbyrd
30.11.2007 13:03
are you talking about a 'race', a religion or those that for whatever reason believe they are Gods chosen ones who were born to inherit the land of Canaan
"Now Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is opposite Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land, Gilead as far as Dan, and all Naphtali and the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah as far as the Western Sea, and the Negev and the plain in the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, as far as Zoar. Then the LORD said to him, "This is the land which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, 'I will give it to your descendants'; I have let you see with your eyes, but you shall not go over there." (Deuteronomy 34:1-4)
you may find this link interesting- a letter from the New York Times penned by a number of prominent 'Jewish' intellectuals in 1948
of course you won't bother to read it as that would be far too challenging or maybe you will and you will dismiss it as the ramblings of 'self-hating jews' or is that another stereotype
I watched a very nice film the other day called Ushpizin. I can recommend it
factchecker
BB
30.11.2007 13:04
the missing link
the Jewish problem
30.11.2007 15:54
In the early days of Indymedia, I think that post would have been flushed right away. But UK Indymedia has been locked into this strange feedback loop, where (a) any criticism of antisemitic postings is automatically reinterpreted as A Great Big Zionist Censorship scheme, and then (b) UK editors demonstrate they're Speaking Truth To Power by allowing ever more antisemitic posts to remain up, just to show 'em, thereby (c) encouraging ever crazier posters to come here and feel politicially justified to make coarser and coarser antisemitic comments, while driving out those readers who are actually repelled by antisemitism rather than naively engaged in trying to give it political cover. After enough years of this feedback loop, plainly antisemitic posts like Atzmon's look almost normal here, as long as the antisemitism has been given the proper "political" coding.
How naive, or twisted, do you have to be to see a post with "Jewish Tribal Politics" in its title, and presume that the "Politics" trumps the antisemitism of "Jewish Tribal anything," thereby rendering the post Indymedia-worthy?
@%<
gehrig
gehrig
30.11.2007 17:54
It got hidden eventually. Only on the grounds that nobody could translate the source to verify whether or not the French PM is Mossad... oh and after from abuse the editor.
Well, to be fair there are so many of these Jews worming their way into power and bending good white folks to the whims of Zion, you can understand why their instinct was to accept it at face value.
Fiddler on the Roof
gehrig enters the fray
30.11.2007 19:29
Didn't you also say that "that perhaps the Palestinians have had a hand in determining their present status" and furthermore that perhaps ethnic cleansing was "not a mistake"?
So, you who blames Palestinians for their own oppression, and cares not one fig for their dispossession are here to tell us about anti-racism. Excellent!!!
Remind us where the anti-semitism in the article that you complain of is, please? After all you're assering that it breaches a guideline.
And please, if I have you wrong on approving of dispossession and oppression on the grounds of race, put me straight.
I thank you so much for caring.
Perhaps I'll come and start helpng you to mod your own indymedia soon.
ftp
to be fair
30.11.2007 19:33
So part of the reason that UK Indymedia seems so Zionist-in-my-cornflakes obsessed is because Jordan Thornton is trying to save the world by alerting it to the e-e-evil menace.
@%<
well, to be fair
Fiddler wif the troof?
30.11.2007 19:41
I'm sure that the Indymedia server won't crash and burn over that.
It doesn't really support your claim at all though.
fact checker
how typical for peeps
30.11.2007 21:00
Hey, peeps --
"Jewish Tribal Politics"
No problems with that? Earns the FTP Seal of Not Dodgyness?
@%<
gehrig
Facts not checked
30.11.2007 21:38
No it doesn't. Firstly, where are Jews indigenous to? If the Aborigines are indigenous to Australia and whites aren't, or only American-Indians are native to USA, then where are Australian and American Jews indigenous to?
If Jews are indigenous to anywhere it is the Middle East, genetic studies show this even if you are not persuaded by dark-eyed traits etc, though this is complicated by admixture.
Zionism is the principle that there be a homeland for Jews, or as usually interpreted, that there be a homeland for the Jews in the Land of Israel/Palestine/The Holy Land.
You are going to quote some foundation Israeli politician who said "the reality was, they had to be moved," but this was not necessary to the creation of a Jewish homeland. That Jewish homeland did not need to be exclusively Jewish and is not; there are different quarters in Jerusalem; in parts of northern Israel there is an Arab majority. However the Arab-Israeli conflict has lessened the practical possibility for Jews and Arabs to live side by side in the Land of Israel/Palestine/The Holy Land.
Strepsil
Too busy!
01.12.2007 00:12
Well, the issue of whether Israel should even exist is now rather moot. I happen to agree that the Jews shouldn't have done what they did. The British fucked up once again, the Europeans made another nightmare in dividing up other peoples' homelands. We all know that. But they are there now and many of them were born there and have a right to stay- unless you believe in national socialism.
What can be done about it? The options are scant and the realistic ones are even less numerous. The idea of disbanding Israel is very unlikely for at least the next 3 generations. It's as absurd as expelling the English from Wales. And as morally corrupt as trying to expel all the whites out of South Africa.
The Jews are in Israel and I can't see that changing for a very long time. Perhaps until that ethnic identity fades into history. The bigger question/uncertainty is what is going to happen to Palestine in the short term. And the answer to that lies ultimately with the people in both countries. They both seem locked in cycle of violence and total fear that isn't helped by outside influences. And Palestine has undoubtedly suffered much more as a whole and the prognosis is grim.
But let's face it. Mighty Whitey sticking his oar in has been a catalogue of disasters.
Demonising Israelis and pro-Israelis may make you feel better, but in the end it's unlikely to have much influence either way. Much as demonsing Hamas will achieve little either. Both stances at best will only help prolong the crisis.
And that's all I have left to add to this "debate". I have to report back to my ADL line manager, who happens to be the Mossad agent that recruited Sarkosy.
Fiddler on the Roof
Hi gehrig - try staying with the programme
01.12.2007 00:36
"Didn't you say the academic boycott was discriminatory, eh gehrig?
Didn't you also say that "that perhaps the Palestinians have had a hand in determining their present status" and furthermore that perhaps ethnic cleansing was "not a mistake"?
So, you who blames Palestinians for their own oppression, and cares not one fig for their dispossession are here to tell us about anti-racism. Excellent!!!
Remind us where the anti-semitism in the article that you complain of is, please? After all you're assering that it breaches a guideline.
And please, if I have you wrong on approving of dispossession and oppression on the grounds of race, put me straight.
I thank you so much for caring. "
you manage this:
"Condemn atzmon's antisemitism, and you get smeared, smeared, smeared in exchange.
Hey, peeps --
"Jewish Tribal Politics"
No problems with that? Earns the FTP Seal of Not Dodgyness?
@%<"
ie Not one answer to one question.
As you chose to come and attack the collective where I am based, I think its up to you to prove your anti-racist credentials, so heres the questions again:
"Didn't you say the academic boycott was discriminatory, eh gehrig?
Didn't you also say that "that perhaps the Palestinians have had a hand in determining their present status" and furthermore that perhaps ethnic cleansing was "not a mistake"?
So, you who blames Palestinians for their own oppression, and cares not one fig for their dispossession are here to tell us about anti-racism. Excellent!!!
Remind us where the anti-semitism in the article that you complain of is, please? After all you're asserting that it breaches a guideline.
And please, if I have you wrong on approving of dispossession and oppression on the grounds of race, put me straight.
I thank you so much for caring. "
I think you'll find the questions are directly relevant.
When I come to UCIMC you can ask the questions first, okay?
There are several questions there, I need answers to them all.
Heres an extra one for bonus points:
Does UC-IMC think that Indymedia UK has a "Jewish problem"? We should be told!
I thank you for your time and attention in advance!
ftp
What's antisemitic about the Atzmon post?
01.12.2007 02:31
Three cheers for peeps, helping keep UK Indymedia safe for antisemitism -- as long as its coded properly, that is.
@%<
gehrig
you still haven't answered the question gehrig
01.12.2007 05:56
And you still haven't answered the rest of the questions either.
Please do so.
It isn't like you to be so coy.
Shall I remind me of the things that you have said about Indymedia uk when I go get the quote where you say that ethnic cleansing "wasn't a mistake", and that the Palestinians have some responsibility for their own oppression?
I remind you, you chose to come and attack Indymedia uk - no-one asked you to . Now that you're here, you get to position yourself in the whole debate.
Seems fair to me.
ftp
Zionist BS Is Antisemitism
01.12.2007 14:42
Hiding behind the Jewish community as a defense IS real Antisemitism.
Jewish Support of Zionism At All-Time Low
since ...
01.12.2007 15:19
"If Jews are indigenous to anywhere it is the Middle East, genetic studies show this"
No, they show the opposite ... the vast majority of jews in the world DO NOT have any genetic connection to the middle east ... that is left for the Palestinians, who are by far in the majority, intimately connected to the land from which they have been dispossessed after an unbroken spell of several thousand years.
It is they who are the semites of the region, both morally and in fact ... therefore the anti-semites must be the zionists.
jackslucid
e-mail:
jackslucid@hotmail.com
open your eyes, peeps
01.12.2007 15:40
But you've made the *political* decision that you're going to ignore antisemitism, that somehow ignoring antisemitism is doing the Palestinians a favor.
For example, you now know that in the other Atzmon thread there's someone nattering about "Jewish Tribal Politics" -- and this does not strike you as an antisemitic generalization. Why? Because you think you're doing the Palestinians a favor by ignoring antisemitism, that's why. Guess what -- you're not.
And that's why it's left to manic spammers like the nutbar Jordan Thornton (the guy you can always spot by the way he capitalizes "Extremists", as he did in the comment right below yours) to defend you.
@%<
gehrig
and by the way
01.12.2007 15:54
A study by Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona showed five years ago that the men in many Jewish communities around the world bore Y chromosomes that were Middle Eastern in origin. This finding is widely accepted by geneticists, but there is less consensus about the women's origins.
I'm assuming that jackslucid was trying to run some variation of that favorite of white supremacists everywhere, the "Khazar" gambit.
@%<
gehrig
gehrig
01.12.2007 15:57
Either quote them (Greenstein of course is nothing to do with Indymedia), or provide evidence to back up your claim that the article is anti-semitic, or withdraw the accusation.
The problem with Greenstein's claims, is that he accuses Gilad Atzmon of doing EXACTLY what you have done by claiming that Palestinians bear responsibility for their own oppression.
Thats why the question is relevant, becasue if you agree with Greenstein on this one, you also agree that you are a racist. Its a catch 22 you find yourself in, I think. Even better you say that Greenstein is a racist for being a fervent advocate of the academic boycott. Lots of chickens coming home to roost at the same time me thinks.
Somehow this needs sorting. IMCistas should not go around accusing other collectives of racism if they are not prepared to back up their claims, you're about as comradely as that Lenni Brenner it seems.
Now stop being so disingenuous and provide the evidence please.
Let me remind what you chose to say:
"As long as this now-notorious post --
ftp
Just the one IMCer?
01.12.2007 17:16
You may struggle if you suffer from chronic athritis, otherwise:
"I think you missed my point, so I'll make it a little clearer. Are you
endorsing the existence of a global Zionist conspiracy for world
domination as posited by Atzmon (among others)? Or not? You do tend to
ignore questions like this one, so please answer it straight."
yossarian
"The continuing willingness of people to
accomodate complete weirdos on the lists (primarily related to 9/11
stuff) and the unwillingness to implement any kind of effective list
moderation policy make me mental. The recent discussion of
anti-semitism on the list, coupled with the dozen or so similar
discussion over the past while, lead me to believe that I am simply not
functioning on the same planet as the rest of the most active site
admins. I don't want to have any part in taking responsibility for a
site where I need to discuss moderation policy with somebody talking
about the Jewish conspiracy to rule the world."
You blocked his move to routinely hide Atzmon which was supported by many others.
Then he resigned.
At least Stalin had the decency to try cover his tracks a little when revising history.
Gehrig's Fluffer
unsurprising
01.12.2007 18:58
So let's take the case of Sue Blackwell, who led the (unsuccessful) AUT campaign to boycott Israeli academics. What does she have to say about Atzmon? Well, whatever it was, it caused Atzmon to threaten to sue her for libel. Go to her site at sue.be to see why she puts Atzmon's name in the same list as David Irving, Paul Eisen, and "Israel Shamir." Are you going to tell us that Blackwell is a closet Zionist, ftp? Or could the "they're only Zionists" smoke screen Atzmon throws up when criticised is really just a smoke screen after all, and maybe you'll finally learn to peek around the edges?
There's a difference between anti-Zionism and antisemitism. Blackwell is an anti-Zionist who is not an antisemite, and who thinks antisemitism harms rather than helps the Palestinians. Atzmon is an antisemite who's learned that if he codes himself as "anti-Zionist" then at least a few folks out there won't balk when he starts going on about how bad Jewishness is, and how he doesn't hate Jews, just Jewishness.
The reality is that opposition to Atzmon's antisemitism comes from all quarters except for Atmzon's tiny band of "anti-Zionist" antisemites and the Klan. And defenders of Atzmon's antisemitism come from a tiny (and diminishing) clump of those who say, like Michael Neumann, that maybe a little antisemitism isn't such a bad thing if its done to help the Palestinians.
Which is, apparently, why ftp doesn't have any problem with UK Indymedia posts with titles like "Jewish Tribal Politics." So what if that's an inherently antisemitic formulation? It's not like UK Indymedia has a Jewish Problem, does it?
Oh, yeah, that's right, it does:
But let's be clear. It was freethepeeps who threw in a BLOCK to prevent other IMC collective members, many of them calling for the removal of Atzmon's antisemitic post. So I don't blame the whole UK Kollektive, because they were in effect held hostage by ftp's crusade to keep UK IMC safe for antisemites like Atzmon.
@%<
gehrig
gehrig: "Read your own email list at imc-uk-features and stop pretending"
01.12.2007 19:02
Andi said:
this is definitely not racist and the author takes some pain
to make sure it isn't. i wouldn't hide it but i feel it's on
the edge. still i admit it raises quite a few interesting
questions so i'm unhappy that the comment response is so poor
but then it tends to be that way.
but why is that guy writing something in academic style when
he is a saxophonist, and clearly not publishing in the academic
world?
anyway we shouldn't just act on comments that claim whatever.
cheers andi
And Yossarian said:
I don't think it's racist, although it's certainly guaranteed to piss
people off, which is fine. I was queasy about the following line:
"Though some may dispute the numbers (Shraga Elam), and others question
the validity of memory (Ellis, Finkelstein), no one goes as far as
revisionism, not a single Holocaust religion scholar dares engage in a
dialogue with the so-called ‘deniers’ to discuss their vision of the
events or any other revisionist scholarship."
Never having heard of this Gilad fellow before, I was waiting for some
kind of endorsement of the "revisionist" view (which never appeared).
Basically it's a controversial article, which is somewhat on the edge
but seemingly meant as a positive contribution. So, leave it showing,
I'd say.
Yoss
ps I also have no problems with saxophonists writing in academic style.
We should hide all posts by Kenny G on general principle, though.
However this isn't news and this comment together with many above should probably be hidden.
Archivist
Gehrig Hates IMC-But Never Leaves ...
01.12.2007 20:15
For all we know, he posted the offending material in question, since several IMC collectives have determined that he does this as a way of undermining the network he loathes so much (yet, can never seem to leave ...). He undertook a similar attack against my person some months ago, but in the end, the Editors through the message board proved his tripe to be completely baseless.
"And that's why it's left to manic spammers like the nutbar Jordan Thornton (the guy you can always spot by the way he capitalizes "Extremists", as he did in the comment right below yours) to defend you."
What's left to people like that? "Gehrig" likes to point to capitalization to hide the fact that he monitors IP activity.
Editors: Regarding the Plant's Attacks
"The person(s) who posted this attack on Mr. Thorton is responsible for the majority of spam on Indy Media sites. He/she has put some vile racist articles about Muslims all over this site and others. He/she also posts equally vile anti-Semitic articles in an attempt to discredit Indy Media sites."
www.israel.indymedia.org/newswire/display/7843/index.php
Nothing to Say About the Subject?
try here
01.12.2007 20:35
A bunch of Zionists, perhaps?
@%<
gehrig
gehrig on a losing streak
01.12.2007 20:37
YOU SAID that as long as that article stays up, Indymedia UK has a "Jewish problem" and yet you seem to be doing everything you can to prove my point about the article -ie that it doesn't contain anti-semitism - so you can't point to it.
If there is one thing that IMCistas should understand it is the process that you devote so much energy to, demonisation through smearing - ie smoke and mirrors. Its what you and Greenstein specialise in, after all, along with your mate Abe Foxman whose very term you used on one of our threads.
Now, here is your final opportunity to show how wrong I am about the article (and what a fool I have been to resist the tyranny of the majority)
SHOW US THE ANTI-SEMITISM IN THE ARTICLE THAT YOU SAY LEAVES INDYMEDIA UK WITH A "JEWISH PROBLEM" OR WITHDRAW THE CHARGE.
ftp
Misdirection & "I see no ships!"
01.12.2007 21:36
Seems very strange thing to do since the person concerned quit as quoted above and the decision not to blanket ban Atzmon and an exasperation in warnings about antisemitism (you know the old Jews rule the world stuff that White Power and UK-IMC-18 love so much) were a catalyst.
This "debate" is starting to remind me of somewhere between Paxman (probably a Mossad Agent too!) grilling Howard (definitely not welcome at my dentist's Synagogue, so probably not Mossad) and the Tory twat (probably a Mossad asset) getting his fingers caught in Al Fayed's (Mossad's bane) pocket.
Only someone in deepest denial would maintain that there is no problem with antisemitic posts here and that it has caused problems for the site administration to the point of a resignation.
Gehrig's Fluffer
gehrigs fluffer
01.12.2007 22:43
seems not to support your claim about resignation, as yossarian continues to be active in Indymedia.
The fact that gehrig has helped to demonstrate that in fact no member of Indymedia uk has identified anti-semitism in the article by Atzmon, and the fact that he is reduced to trying to prove that they have, rather than point us to what Steve Cohen, author of 'That's Funny You Don't Look Anti-Semitic' (
Of course, gehrig could still use the opportunity to show where the anti-semitism in the article is, but the record on this thread clearly shows that he is struggling to do so.
Right at the start I appealed on the list for an informed decision, rather than a knee-jerk reaction, and so far all we seem to have is knee-jerk reactions.
People read the smears of Tony Greenstein and gehrig the perpetual smearers along with the pontifications of Steve Cohen, the self-appointed guru of anti-semitism and buy them.
This thread seems to be a perfect indicator of the need for people to make their own minds up, rather than relying on these rather dodgy characters to sort it out for them.
I am bored with having these clowns trying to shut down whole areas of conversation around the issue of pro-Palestinian solidarity, and as Palestinians near the 60th anniversary of the Nakba, many still imprisoned in refugee camps, it is clear that there needs to be a more open and honest appraisal of all the issues that affect the discourse and solidarity actions.
gehrig's whole position appears to reflect his own racism towards Palestinians, and here he is just like his anti-zionist brother Greenstein, whose condemnation of the Palestinians' electoral choice as "politically backwards" is breathtaking in its racist arrogance, matched only by gehrig's pontifications on how bad Arafat was for Palestinians.....
That they operate by accusing everyone whose politics they don't like of racism is breathtaking hypocrisy of the highest order.
ftp
It gets worse?
01.12.2007 23:24
Are you Alistair Campbell in a Monty Python sketch? He clearly states he has withdrawn from IMC UK, and for the reasons outlined: antisemitism and conspiracy weirdos. He has resigned! He's not pining for the Fjords! He's gone. Removed himself. Moved on.
Just because he's still active on London doesn't make that fact he has withdrawn from UK untrue.
To suggest I'm in error on that point is just more misdirection.
Gehrig's Fluffer
pound the table a little harder, peeps
01.12.2007 23:30
Ask the members of your own Kollektive, peeps. They're the ones who would have banned Atzmon for good if you hadn't thrown your block. Do you think the UK-IMC board has been overrun by Zionist agents? Or do you think maybe they see something you don't? The same thing anti-Zionists Lenni Brenner and Tony Greenstein and Sue Blackwell see that you don't?
And I've been more than clear: the Jewish Problem that UK-IMC has is that IMC process requires unanimous consent, and you've thrown a block, thereby allowing an antisemitic article by a notoriously antisemitic writer to remain festering on your newswire.
As far as Jordan Thornton's charges, yes, he really does believe that I'm a government agent of some kind, and he really does believe I could identify him not by his distinctive posting style, featuring among other things his Peculiar Capitalization and standard bucket of nyms, but by reading the IP addresses of UK Indymedia posters. Actually, if Jordan came clean for just one week, and signed every post he makes here with his own name, like I have been doing for the five years I've been part of the Indymedia movement, you'd be amazed at how big of a proportion of the anti-Israel stuff on the newswire comes straight from Saskatchewan.
@%<
gehrig
gehrig's fluffer
01.12.2007 23:38
" He has resigned! He's not pining for the Fjords! He's gone. Removed himself. Moved on."
it just doesn't ring true when you read his actual words, does it?
" I've decided that for the time being I'm going
to withdraw from imc-uk-features, imc-uk-process, imc-uk-network, and
imc-uk-contact. "
and
"Perhaps I just need a break."
and
"I'll try and contribute something
on a different level and hope that things will have improved by the time
that I've had something of a rest"
That is quite different to resignation, its a standing back and taking time to decide. The door does not appear to be closed, and it isn't me that is closing it.
ftp
gehrig concedes defeat.
01.12.2007 23:42
BTW - I stood aside - my block no longer exists.
The comments on this thread will be hidden shortly as they breach the guidelines.
gehrig failed to do what he set out to do.
Over and out!
ftp
ftp
02.12.2007 00:38
See you again then!
Gehrig's Fluffer
and that's peeps for you, folks
02.12.2007 01:32
Then Gilad will take another antisemitic dump into this site in a few weeks, knowing how hard peeps has worked to keep UK Indymedia safe for antisemitism.
And the UK Kollektive will be, I'm sure, grateful to peeps for making it possible.
@%<
gehrig
Nothing to see here!
02.12.2007 09:12
This site takes another step closer to totally discrediting itself.
Gehrig's Fluffer
this thread
02.12.2007 14:09
@%<
gehrig
Peeps - the last defence of the anti-Semites
03.12.2007 22:02
He claims that Atmon's articles are not anti-Semitic. All 3 of them, at the last count, on Indymedia are anti-Semitic. The Esther one calls for the validation and legitimation of holocaust deniers as worthy of debate. The Hunters of Goliath one legitimises the holocaust and speaks of the 'Judaic worldview' and his 'Gatekeepers' compares Jews in the Palestine solidarity movement to 5th columnists in the war.
Palestinians recognise that Jews standing up against Zionism is important to negate the lie that anti-Zionism equals anti-Semitism. Free the Peeps wants to prove that to be an anti-Zionist is to be an anti-Semite. In reality he is no anti-Zionist but he is an anti-Semite.
tony greenstein
e-mail:
tonygreenstein@yahoo.com
Greenstein
03.12.2007 23:11
Well, it seems that 'clear anti-semitism' made it through the editorial process elsewhere as well:
"Friends and associates of the Jewish businessman at the centre of the scandal that has rocked the government this week, yesterday leapt to his defence."
I don't see any letters of complaint there.
There is nothing in the article that suggests that this matter is the responsibility of all people who are Jewish, nor is there any suggestion that some racial or genetic force is at play.
I'm not really sure how your rules work, so I'd be left presuming that according to them, this was 'clearly anti-semitic':
"No Jewish socialist would even dream of joining it."
But you wrote it, in the Guardian (
Its very difficult to see what the difference between identifying someone as a Jewish socialist or a Jewish businessman might be.
"Free the Peeps wants to prove that to be an anti-Zionist is to be an anti-Semite. In reality he is no anti-Zionist but he is an anti-Semite."
So now I'm a 'Loyalist, Aaronovitch loving zionist' - Hmmm, do you wonder why I can't take you seriously?
ftp
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