I am wholehearted in my agreement with you. Whilst I understand those who dislike any form of criticism of those 'on our side' so to speak, I think lack of any form of self-criticism is actually suicidal for the movement as a whole.

Why do we need anti-war celebrities to speak for us at all? Why George Galloway et al? I have always felt rather mystified at most protests organised by the StWC, where it feels as if I am merely a visitor in someone else's movement. Where I must obey their rules, and follow their stewards, listen to their speakers. I guess it is a question of legality, and how the right to protest in the UK really isn't a right, it is something you supposedly must be granted permission for (??). Where the organiser assumes responsibility for those who join the protest.

The most interesting, creative actions I have been involved in have been those uninterested in making the police very happy, where streets are reclaimed and the people there and then decide how to create an occasion of joy and solidarity. Unless we have more of the same (and Monday's protest seems encouraging) people will feel disempowered, turn away from what they deem to be a futile (and boring!) venture, and get back to their day jobs.

I think you're totally right - the STWC leadership have betrayed their membership by encouraging the anti-war movement to stagnate into a series of pointless, impotent marches with no direct action or campaigning to back them up. Two million people marched at the start of the war - now the self-appointed 'leaders' of the protest movement have to pretend their marches have been banned just to raise five thousand.

Marches alone will change nothing. We need direct action to shut down the industrial base on which the war machine relies, to provide an irresistable economic incentive for companies to stop supporting the war (that is, make it unprofitable to do so), and to force our 'leaders' to act in the interests of humanity.

For another good critique of the day, see-
 http://www.tiltingatwindmills.org.uk/tawnews/node/30

...that the SWP, oops sorry STWC don't let the great unwashed speak at rallies is it is too dangerous as far as their control over dissent is concerned. Should they allow any of the masses to express an opinion how could they be sure it would follow the party line? How could they be sure that the speaker would not advocate taking meaningful action against the war.
The reason these marches are the way they are is that they are organized by people who believe they know better than you and therefore have the Trotsky given right to tell you how to express your rage against the state and your love for life.

Tell us what you would like people to do on a demo, or instead of a demo, please. Enlighten us with your ideas. Or are you commentators wind and piss merchants whose talk is cheap, spout bollocks as a pastime, and sit around on your arses doing fuck all.

Or are you members of the FIT.


No then, why dont you organise and do what you want, instead of criticsing people who get off their arses and do something useful that they want to do.

The global anti/war movement in haveing given support to the iraqi people against the groteque war crimes against it by the US, which include the destruction of their country, mass murder on a colosal scale, the robbery of Iraqs energy resources, and the illegal imposition of neoliberal laws by the US, has helped, along with Iraq restistance to get rid of a neoconservative fascist governing clique in the US who were mostly responsibe for the illegal invasion. The support too is helping the Iraqi's too get rid of the barbarous illegal invader who will, no doubt, at some point be brutally kicked out of the country in the not too distant future so the Iraqus themselves can rebuild their country how they choose.

So well done anti/war movement nascent fascism has been arrested for now.

Furthermore, If you dont like the speaches at anti/war demos have your own meeting. Or do whatever it is you want instead of doing what is excepted around the world as an appropriate and effective form of protest.


And why spend time writing a load of bollocks in trying to overthrough the anti/war protest movement, instead of trying to overthrow capitalism, or whatever it is you want to overthrough.

Besides, If the organisers were to let you lot of commentators speak, along with Tony Ben, tariq Ali, iraqui Trade Unionists, Gorgeous George Galloway, Saloom Yacoob and others, tell us, what would you say.

So in short, instead of cheap talk, do something. Do what ever it is you want, whatever the fuck that is.

Why doesn't the STWC website have a forum where people can can add their ideas, advice, criticism, anything?

Because they don't want to hear from the people?

HH, why are you so rude? Why is it it that every time someone makes some criticism, no matter how balanced, informed, and positive, SWP people come back spitting venom through their mouths? What is it with marxists like these, always coming up with the rethoric of "if you're not with me unconditionally, you're a fascist"?
The people comenting on this thead were all part of the demo, we've all been to many antiwar demos, it's not that we've been sitting on our arses commenting on something we've been watching on telly, as you're trying to present it. They have genuine concerns and contributions to make the antiwar movement more effective, yet you slag them off. No wonder people like you managed to kill the antiwar movement, because you reduced it to a collection of pointless processions until everyone got bored of listening to the same old speeches by the same politicians trying to manipulate the movement for their own electoral gain. If that is you party line, that you'd rather kill something off if you can not dominate it, then it stinks.
At least, be honest about it.

1. Talk is cheap but discussing tactics on-line is crass

2. The STWC has proved useless because:

a. It is an undemocratic front organisation for the SWP, possibly the most opportunist and incompetent bunch of lefties the state could wish for.

b. It has failed to support Brian Haw or the others in Parliament square - this isn't my claim it what Brian has repeatedly said.

c. It has the imagination of bunch of boring Trots who have repeatedly led us to defeat - again and again and again.

d. The space hijackers can outwit the old bill with a tank despite massive police surveillance but the SWP cannot outwit the state with 2 million people

3. Tariq Ali, George Galloway and Tony Benn have bored everyone silly in every campaign since the age of dinosaurs we are sick of them, their drivel and the same self-appointed leadership. Enough speakers we want action.

4. The SWP should quit and let someone else have a go, but you’re never going to give up power are you?

5. The most effective campaigns such as Greenham Common, Anti-Poll Tax, Anti-GM and Reclaim the Streets have NOT been run by the SWP but largely by local groups.

6. As an electoral party Respect are still colluding in the privatisation of council housing in Tower Hamlets, Cross Rail and the local gang culture. It has made no difference to the people of Tower Hamlets getting this SWP front organisation elected only alienated more people from progressive ideas.

Enough is enough, you have had your chance, now fuck-off

Not all Stop the War groups are dominated by the SWP (e.g. Norwich). This was partly because we clamped down on them and only allow a couple of people from any group. This stopped them swarming meetings to push through their policies (e.g. campaigning for Respect etc).

As well as some people from NSTWC going down to London a few people from the group were involved in the blockade of RAF Lakenheath (see  http://www.easterncnduk.org) on the same day. This action was publicised by CND but not National STWC (although they told me they would do it).

For many people traveling down to London for a nice 'safe' STWC demo it is a major step. Many of them are not being held back by STWC stewards. Just going on a demo is very radical for them. We would still go down to the demos even if it was only just to talk to these people and get them more involved in taking other actions if we were not 'tied up' elsewhere.

As well as action it is also important to provide information to the public about what is really going on (most people don't look at indymedia or other alternative media). Many STW groups do this by having speakers, showing films etc.

It would be good to have a constructive debate and spreading ideas of what we can do rather than focusing on criticising Stop the War Coalition.

HH, I really don't understand your sentiments.

Did you not bother to read the posts? Did you not see that we ARE active in the anti-war movement and are criticising it as actors within it? There is so much nastiness in your post, I find it profoundly depressing. Even if you don't agree with other posters, you should recognise the concerns they have as legitimate, coming from within the movement. What chance do we have of achieving anything if we don't even listen to each other?

HH you are seriously deluded if you think that the resistance in Iraq draws strength and resolve from the SWP/STWC plods around London. One million dead, Blair exiting his premiership to glowing praise and standing ovations?
I am happy that people do attend these marches and add a much needed alternative to Lindsey Germans etc bunch of useless revolutionaries! I cant imagine Subcomandante Marcos cooperating with the police so willingly and subserviently.

I remember back at the start of this " War On Terror " people were calling for direct action at military bases and other related sites involved in the war machine. The " Leadership " would not support this stating that Direct Action was elitist! Most people/groups would have reflected on their tactics realistically and made necessary changes, but the STWC seem incapable of doing this. The most frustrating thing is that overall presence of the STWC seems to swamp other independent efforts.

I have been to many demo's large and small, national and local, i do at times feel depressed and disempowered after a procession around the streets of the capital and feel a sense of shame that the war continues and we have had little impact to stop it.

After attending the camp For Climate Action i feel empowered again. I thought the direct action taken at this camp was appropriate and effective. We also experimented with building practical alternatives to this shit system. I the STWC could listen and learn from other groups we could have a better opposition to this war and the wider social problems we all face.

The majority of the people who are having a go at the STWC seem to me to be frustrated anarchists. When will the anarchists understand that the STWC is run on the basis of maxium participation, which by the way is very inclusive, it is a broad coalition attracting a broad coalition of ideas.

If everybody in the UK had the same view of the world then we would stop the war today, but we don't, in this situation we have to attract people who do not normally see themselves as anti state, anti capitalists, or in a class war. It is therefore very important that we do not attach conditions for people who want to show their opposition against the war.

I'm confused when people say the anti war movement has been a failure, In historical terms the STWC has been very successful, it has organised the biggest gathering of people in UK history around an issue, CND et al has never been able to do this.
Arguably, the pressure of the sustained anti war movement brought Tony Blair down and has forced Brown to reduce troops to a tokenist base in Basra airport. In my eyes this has been a success and not a failure.

In comparsion terms, the american anti war movement, although strong has not forced their government to stop war, in fact Bush has increased troop numbers, and no the SWP has not been involved in that movement.

And one more thing. The Climate Camp was not a succes I'm affaid to say, BA are still planning to build an airport but then again nobody expects instance miracles from these campaigns, it will probably take a very long time.

Redletter how is the STWC inclusive when they exclude anyone who wishes to break there cycle of peaceful A to B march.

Its not about everyone partaking in a mass riot but allowing diversity of tactics, which the STWC refuses to do.

I have already commented on this further here

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/10/383233.html

OK. So the commenators here really dont like people disagreeing with them. And you call me rude; I dont know what in context of the load of invective bollox that goes on in these comment pages you mean. Perhaps, you have spent too much time: studying at the London School of Manners, Etiquette and Deportment, to go with the rough and tumble of heated debate.

The STWC are a part of the British Anti Iraq War movement which is a part of the World Anti Iraq War Movement.

The STWC help to organise demos, including one of the largest in British history, and their members go on the media and do a very effective job of putting over the anti Iraq war message. What more do you expect them to do?

Well, I know many have expected them to do a lot more than just calling demos in London, for many years, amd even quite a few in the STWC national committee. THey would like them to: help organise blockades, sit -ns, pickets of arms dealers, take over the US and British Embassies in London for a day, but they haven´t YET. Maybe they will, if you are polite and ask them nicely, but if you are rude and slag them off in the manner that you do here,do you really expect them to pay any attention to you..

Maybe you´d like Lindsey German of the STWC and the SWP to use her speech at a demos to tell every one to blockade the US embassy, or the MOD, or the Army recruitment centres, or the arms dealers like BA in London? Is that it. I guess she has to be a bit careful and not get arrested for incitement which carries 20 year prison sentence.

There are many other organisations, groups and individuals who dont have anyhing much to do with the STWC, who for all I know, may have made an even greater contribution to the anti Iraq War movement in Britain. Maybe the commentators above who go on the demos are some of them.. Tell us your story. Inspire others.

An anonymous commentator writes above:

"HH, why are you so rude? Why is it that every time someone makes some criticism, no matter how balanced, informed, and positive, SWP people come back spitting venom through their mouths? What is it with Marxists like these, always coming up with the rhetoric of "if you're not with me unconditionally, you're a fascist"?
The people commenting on this thread were all part of the demo, we've all been to many antiwar demos ... "

Firstly, let me mention about me having been rude. Well yes. It’s 2 fingers to you, and the rest whose aggression, sometimes in the smarmy superior, I am so clever and powerful at manipulating you passive mode, and often in a direct and violent action that would violate my body, that I have to continually tolerate. So, yes, I still have my rudeness as a weapon.

But how rude have I been here? Do you know the difference in degrees of offensiveness between "fuck off", and "what the fuck". The first is offensive to most people the second is offensive to a few.
The writer of the report above: uses the term "fuck off", which I only do when I want to be really rude and offensive.

Secondly, you say I am in the SWP. How can I believe anything you write if you state I am in the SWP, because you write something I know not to be true.

Next, how do you know that: "The people commenting on this thread were all part of the demo, we've all been to many antiwar demos." It reveals that you are a clique organise to put forward the same line, and shout down and insult anyone or anything that disagrees with your proposals. Nothing wrong with that, but don’t be hypocritical and criticise the SWP for doing same, in order to get their position across and recruit people to their organisation. But be hypocritical if you like - you have every right to,

And what have your friends got against being boring. What’s wrong with being boring: staying in of a winters night, taking a some rough shag in you pipe, reading a Jane Austin novel by the fire - boring is in the head of the bored. And if you and you mates are bored by this why not take up snow boarding, or Para-gliding, or whatever it is you consider non-boring. What does you mate want Tony Benn to do, or say, to make him not being in you head - high-wire tap-dancing, or do an impersonation of Sid Vicious doing “My Way.”, or even go without washing himself for a few weeks.

And your other mate calls me crass for talking tic-tacs on line. Well, why don’t you stick your head above the parapet like Tony Benn, and other people you find boring. When you know what it’s like you won’t call them boring. And to whom can I talk tic tics to : my dog, the old woman in the café. How dare you imply I should be silent?


On the general achievements of the Anti-War movement, I think the world-wide Anti-war movement is responsible for more than just what Red Letter says: helping to get rid of Blair, which, more importantly has had the result of bringing more British Troops back to Britain. They are partially responsible for getting rid of the Neo-Conservative Fascists in the US, and halting the spread of neo-conservative fascism to other countries. And they’d have flattened Iran by now if it wasn’t for an anti-war movement which some parts of the mainstream press, and mainstream political has supported.

Finally, it is worth mentioning that, of course the STWC didn’t get rid of Cheney and Rumsfeld alone, or even the British Anti-War movement as a whole, but they did inspire the anti-war movements in other countries by the massive and unprecedented turn out at some of the demos they helped to organise. People have told me this.

For fuck sake listen to yourselves!

"Maybe they will, (pickets of arms dealers, take over the US and British Embassies in London for a day) if you are polite and ask them nicely, but if you are rude and slag them off in the manner that you do here,do you really expect them to pay any attention to you.."

Your so fucking pathetic, bowing to your leaders unable to think for yourselves...

Read between the political lines, its all about party politics and how to promote self interest!


And I am involved in various forms direct action against the war and always
putting my neck on the line cos if you are really passionate about at least making a proper statement against these on going wars then thats what you have to do! (not hide behind a political party)

... except @narchist

Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky; they found an ice-pick that made his ears burn.

Not sure if I have the lyric correct ...

If there were more unbrian-washed anti-trot heroes like @nchist then (sorry, I just can’t finish the sentence. Can someone help me?) ....

I once wrote a letter to our local newspaper about an on going problem that the local council and police refused to deal with, although I chickened out in the end and signed it anonymous. I

I was pretty sure that I was followed when I went to post the letter in town. As I got as far as the ring road subway I was attacked and the letter snatched from my hand.

After getting my wound cleaned up and stitched at the hospital, I went straight to the police; they just didn’t want to know. I told them there were video cameras in the subway, so that identification of the culprit would be made easier.

I saw the bull dog on two other occasions, and continued to step in the dog shit, despite writing another letter to the council, which I did sign.

Agreed: the StWC are shit, unimaginative and obedient.

But the bottom line is, it has to be up to us to try and organise something better.

There have been various attempts at this but they haven't been hugely successful. One problem is having to compete with StWC for people's time and energy, and, to be fair to them, StWC do a good job of being the most well known, visible and 'mainstream' anti-war campaign. Another issue is not wanting to be seen as unnecessarily
sectarian, 'splitting the movement'.

Question is, how do we organise an anti-war movement that is broad enough to include people for whom going on a
demo for the first time is a big deal, all the way along to those up for disrupting military bases, blockading, criminal damage etc? A movement that (unlike StWC) is genuinely democratic and respects a diversity of backgrounds and tactics?

I can't see a way of doing it that wouldn't be interpreted by the StWC as a sectarian attack on them.

But it's probably the only way we're going to stop the next war.

HH wrote

"Well, I know many have expected them to do a lot more than just calling demos in London, for many years, amd even quite a few in the STWC national committee. THey would like them to: help organise blockades, sit -ns, pickets of arms dealers, take over the US and British Embassies in London for a day, but they haven´t YET. Maybe they will, if you are polite and ask them nicely, but if you are rude and slag them off in the manner that you do here,do you really expect them to pay any attention to you.. "

Point at hand. Where where STWC at this years DSEi arms fair?

Well my mother always said if every one was just a bit nicer to each other the world would be a better place.

Come on this is a flimsy arguement.

For me, the bottom line is this: the StWC does not own the anti-war movement. Only a fool would claim that they have not been a serious force in mobilising people against the war. And yet in a sense, this is a ridiculous statement - the war itself mobilised people against the war. Do you remember all the lies, the blatantly obvious lies, that grew and grew from September 2001? People would have to be incredibly indifferent to human suffering not to have become more and more enraged.

For me, any healthy movement has great diversity within it. It is always a joy to see many banners at protests, made by people with time and care from far and wide, not the same ubiquitous slogans dreamt up in the 'anti-war movement's' HQ. Then again, perhaps it is most of us who are in the problem. This society makes us so accustomed to the passive spectacle, to a sheep-like mentality, that we are lazy in our activism. We don't take risks or organise ourselves properly.

Sure - there will always be those who would like to join a simple march from a to b - merely doing so, for example on Feb 15th 2003, was a massive achievement. I know many people like this, who protested for the first time in their lives. They would not feel comfortable participating in forms of direct action.The StWC coalition played a huge role in this mobilisation, and it is to their credit. Yet other forms of action will always be necessary. The day Iraq was invaded for example, people took over the streets for hours out of sheer anger and rage, cat and mouse with police all the way. Roads blocked and traffic stopped - but let the ambulances through. No permission requested.

All movements have had splits within them, and provided it is in search in the same aim, I do not really see a problem with this. Take the suffragettes for example: during WWI some of the Pankhurst suffragettes called women to cease their feminist demands and stand behind Britain in the war effort, whilst others took the contrary view. Yes, we may not always agree with each other's tactics, yet isn't this the essence of democracy? Why let the movement be ruled with a Stalinist iron fist? I think more local direct action might be the way - a smaller carbon footprint, and you don't even need to pay for the coach fare.

The microleft groups SWP et. al see the war and the anti-war movement as a rare marketting opportunity for their marginalised politics.

In Ireland they ran the whole thing into the ground. The plowshares group www.peaceontrial.com that did most to disrupt U.S. deployment through Shannon received zero support from the SWP dominated Irish Anti War Movement, they were not allowed to speak at anti-war rallies even though they faced years in jail for their nonviolent direct action, their events were not publicised by the IAWM. They were viewed as competitors in the anti war market. The coalition you've got there aren't serious about intervening in the war or supporting those who are....they are abouot controlling the market, protecting egoes and profiles. They are the first line of policing against any anti-war movement developing that may seriously and directly intervene (that's why the state backed off on this occasion).

After a good dinner and a snooze, and then outside for a breadth of fresh while the dog takes a piss - one is better placed to make rational (and polite) discourse.

Furthermore, I like to relax, get out the pipe stuff it with a bit of rough shag and get it on a slow burn. Then hand on chin I muse:

Well said Jo. Nothing more I could add.

Except to say, that making public people's concerns about STWC's tic-tacs is a start to changing things. Kick the debate into the public sphere and see what happens.

While I am online: Mr Irish you'll be blaming the SWP for your smelly feet next.

It's good to see someone questioning the SWP at last! I personally would also take issue with them on their support for Islamic fundamentalism and their institutional racism; they have conflated our war with Israel's with the result that they spend more time dencouncing "zionist conspiracies" than actually protesting the war in Iraq. They also invited a Hezbollah PR droid on a UK tour as well as a fanatic from a sectarian Iraqi death squad.

Apparently, such people are "the resistance"! And anyone who complains about this is immediately denounced as a "Zionist". Isn't this a bit racist? Sadly I have seen similar arguments and support for Islamic fundamentalists here on Indymedia.

This has an effect in the real world; is anyone aware of the SWP front "Respect's" disgusting performance in Manchester Student Union which ended up with an epidemic of racist attacks on Jewish students, some of whom are very much against the war, and (fortunately) a diverse coalition against their divisive and Stalinist leadership, linked to here.

 http://community.livejournal.com/swp_watch/52516.html

Respects response to losing the election: SOUR GRAPES!

 http://www.educationet.org/messageboard/posts/1175525424.html

This kind of thing has so many ramifications; there is a serious recession on the way and the ruling class are already playing the race card, with their "white working class" fetishism. The last thing we need is the SWP reviving 1930's anti-semitism as well...

Remember Cable street! NO WAR BUT THE CLASS WAR!