Foot & Mouth & Climate Camp?

Help needed | 04.08.2007 08:19 | Climate Chaos | Ecology | Repression

Is there a connection?

Something may be wrong with me. I woke up and heard the news about the Foot and Mouth outbreak at Guildford and immediately assumed there was a connection with the climate camp starting on the 14th. The 'exclusion zone' is currently 10 KM around the farm. We don't yet know the exact location of the camp, but Heathrow is only a few miles north of the affected farm and no doubt, the exclusion zone will spread wider as time goes on. The proposed injunction against protestors is pretty unworkable and smacks of repression in a way that 'protection of the countryside' would not.
Farmers in that area say they are very surprised - it's not a livestock-dense area (go vegan you idiots!) and conditions don't seem 'right' for the spread of that disease. I heard a government spokesperson say " finding where it came from isn't the priority (!), limiting it is".
Is it just me? Have I finally grown SO mis-trustful of the State that I'm starting to see conspiracy theories everywhere? (I'm relying on the usual healthy barrage of abuse to bring me to my senses - thank you!)

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Not paranoid

04.08.2007 08:32

The camp location was compromised some time ago. Police and private security are already there putting up fences and blocking access.

This convinient Foot and Mouth scare is probably another option for them. The people who sold us out to the police in the name of co-operation have some questions to awnser.

see

You are not alone, I am paranoid too.

04.08.2007 08:33

The same conspiracy theory popped into my head this morning but would they go to so much massive trouble and expense just to stop some protesters? That said, having happened, it could now be exploited by THEM to stop the camp but wouldn't it also cause loads of problems for the airport itself if the exclusion zone was expanded?

Itsme

farms

04.08.2007 08:54

heathrow is not a farm.

fast freddie

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Paranoid

04.08.2007 10:17

The climate camp is well worthwhile, the chances are however that there are likely to be less than 500 people there. 500 people can be easily monitored and contained by the Police.

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Heathrow passengers

04.08.2007 11:28

Most travellers through Heathrow will be in cars, trains and coaches, not scampering across fields as, I suspect, Climate Campers will be! Nothing easier than to allow cars through while rounding up anyone on a patch of grass.

Sam

your answer

04.08.2007 11:28

"Is there a connection?"

No.

I hope this was helpful.

rasputin

no connection

04.08.2007 12:05

There is more a connection with overproduction and capitalist production methods than a climate camp.

keeping a suspicious mind

04.08.2007 12:32

"Heathrow is not a farm"
No - but the camp was never going to be _on_ the airport site

Can't rule out that THEY costed the potential disruption at the airport and figured it would be more than an FMD operation.

bobby

Plus ...

04.08.2007 13:09

It wouldn't cause any additional delays to Heathrow travellers, as road traffic would be rushed through, while anyone seen walking around the countryside/camping could be rounded up.
It also wouldn't be a huge expense as I've already heard that everything is already in place to be able to isolate the poor animals to prevent spreading. It's also been classified as an 'outbreak' and not yet as an epidemic. They don't even want to bother innoculating other animals in the area. Sounds like a controlled operation to me.

Suspicious minds

Farms/airports?

04.08.2007 14:17

Well THEY now also have a 5 mile Air Exclusion Zone, which if expanded would close down the airport. New theory: SOMEONE has infected the cattle to close down Heathrow prior to the Climate Camp or has somehow interfered with the test results to make it look as if it is foot-and-mouth when it is not. This would have the dual effect of reducing cattle methane as well as aircraft emissions but vegan campers will not be pleased.

Itsme

Good point

04.08.2007 22:50

To be so mistrustful of this government
War criminal ought-to-be-in-jail G Brown has attended 3 sets of Cobra meetings in the past few weeks National emergency meetings and no doubt the climate change dupes rightly challenging another set of proposals for all the wrong reasons will be target for all the wrong reasons

Virus released from private lab

05.08.2007 12:34

The virus has been sequenced (fingerprinted) and found to be the strain held in a nearby lab.
The lab is a private company that makes vacinnes against the disease.

Whether or not there should be vacinnation or culling, the lab staff should certainly be arrested and the company should face corporate culling. If the company and staff remain unpunished - as they surely will considering Bernad Mathews recieved compenation for importing Bird Flu - then it indicates government complicity.

So if the government is complicit in leaking the virus, the next question is why, and the original 'conspiracy theory' here is a likely, arguably most likely, explanation.

Danny

no offence...

05.08.2007 13:00

I genuinely don't mean this as any offence to the camp, but do you guys really think eight days of hippies in a field is enough of a threat to the British state that they would risk fucking up the country's agriculture, impose a ban of export of animal products, make themselves look even more pathetic than usual in the eyes of the world's media, etc.?

seriously?

rasputin

Russias greatest love machine

05.08.2007 15:41

I never cease to be amazed by the humbleness of some activists. I never bought this theory when it was posted, but it is beginning to walk like a duck and quack like a duck. It might not be a duck, but it is worth examining. And if you doubt the establishment is ncerned by the climate change camp, you haven't been reading the newspapers for the past month.

Rasp, you're not also one of these people who think IM is never read by the state are you ? I was at a demo in Scotland yesterday, the first demo organised by the North Ayrshire Women's Interest Collective. They mentioned that they'd posted it on IM and also told the police in advance. I explained that posting it here meant that they had already informed the police. Oh, and I can prove that btw.

Danny
Homepage: http://scotland.indymedia.org/newswire/display/4403/index.php

well,

05.08.2007 17:04

word is, from the 9/11 truthers, that holographic giant lizards in the pay of George Bush and those other rather evil plotters raided the government lab, performed a perfectly executed controlled demolition thus releasing the foot and mouth virus to the near by farm, knowing FULL WELL that a bunch of hippies were planning an extremely dangerous, state smashingly explosive climate camp in which dangerous ideas (such as 'pollution is bad') would be be talked about over a generous helping of green tea and vegan biscuits. Obviously, MI5 had no other option but to stop this dangerous meeting going ahead.
Next topic : are hamsters in the pay of MI5 and transmitting brainwaves to children in order to make them believe the lies about 9/11??

anarchist

One question

05.08.2007 17:58

Why post as 'anarchist' instead of your old 'MI5/SpookPlant' name since you never claim to be an anarchist in real life ? Especially after you admit using the police to harrass real anarchists ? You're not tying to confuse the issue are you Dick ?

Danny

anarchist

05.08.2007 18:47

You gave yourself away. There are no real anarchists left here. They were all abducted by the New World Order and replaced with plants that do nothing but post NWO propaganda. And the clever thing is that no one but the Enlightened have yet noticed that this place has turned into a Neocon propaganda factory. Clever when you think about it.

pretend anarchist number 31267

Richard

05.08.2007 19:46

It is quite early on for you to be this drunk/drugged, even if you can afford it on your wages for being an infiltrator. I am concerned. However, ignoring that, what reason would our ever present Weegie James Bond ascribe the lack of biosecurity to ? Don't you think it at least raises serious questions about the fact that the US and Russia both admit to holding on to samples of smallpox ? I'm guessing you don't.

Danny

i think danny.....

05.08.2007 20:48

has mental health problems. My sisters a social worker, she can help you out if you like? Dont worry, shes not going to transmit your brainwaves to MI5.

anarchist

Ta much

05.08.2007 21:11

"My sisters a social worker, she can help you out if you like?"

Thank you kindly. Put her in touch with me if you are serious. I am totally unsurpised your sister is a mental health nurse. It sort of explains the drugs you hand out like candy at Peaton Glen woods to TP pledgers.

I know someone who sections people, not a friend, just a passing acquaintance. I doubt he'd hesitate for a second if he thought I needed that - and yet here I am. Accusing you of being an infiltrator. How about we get all our combined mental health experts - and maybe a few of the lie-detector testors that you've refused in the past, and we meet up somewhere like a neutral infoshop ? Wouldn't that be nice ?

Danny

Doctors who are bombers.

05.08.2007 22:39

Why not lab techies who are bio terrorists.Noidier heh

Friend Zarin

'course there is

06.08.2007 08:25

There's a strong connection:

Foot & mouth can be stopped by going vegan, so can climate change!

So maybe if those hypocritical dreaded hippies eating meat should go vegan instead of being more interested in their tum tums

Veggie Bean

Danny

06.08.2007 10:05

"I never cease to be amazed by the humbleness of some activists."

It isn't humbleness, it's realism. The climate camp is a worthwhile initiative, but it isn't anywhere near enough of a threat for the state to stage a foot and mouth outbreak.

your attitude is typical of the activistoid arrogance that assumes the whole world revolves around their own movement, making anything the state does a reaction to or targetted towards their own particular activity.

"I never bought this theory when it was posted, but it is beginning to walk like a duck and quack like a duck. It might not be a duck, but it is worth examining. And if you doubt the establishment is ncerned by the climate change camp, you haven't been reading the newspapers for the past month."

Sure they're concerned. point being?

"Rasp, you're not also one of these people who think IM is never read by the state are you?"

Of course not. I don't see what that has to do with anything tho.

rasputin

Optimist Prime

06.08.2007 13:52

"The climate camp is a worthwhile initiative, but it isn't anywhere near enough of a threat for the state to stage a foot and mouth outbreak."

Sometimes the state acts irrationally, the left hand of government not knowing what the right hand is doing. I doubt Gordon Brown ordered it but I don't share your certainty. Whatever you believe there isn't a plausible explanation for the outbreak that is defensible by the state.

"your attitude is typical of the activistoid arrogance that assumes the whole world revolves around their own movement, making anything the state does a reaction to or targetted towards their own particular activity."

When your paranoia proves right five or six times then it is natural to accept a few false positives.

>Rasp, you're not also one of these people who think IM is never read by the state are you?
"Of course not. I don't see what that has to do with anything tho. "

Just checking - that argument is made here surprisingly often - or rather suspiciously often, since I've transformed into an activistoid. Activistoids battle Decepticons daily you know !

Danny

Doubtful

06.08.2007 14:56

So, they have released the disease about 20 miles away from Heathrow Airport. Right in the heart of Toffsville where many senior civil servants live. And it just so happens that two biolabs are right in the vicinity. Amazingly handy and no one will notice. Except perhaps the world's media.

If the exclusion zone extends three times its size, then Heathrow will likely have to be shutdown completely (likely also to include quarantine on cargo) in the peak of holiday season, as will the busiest section of the M4 and the section of the M3 that would have served as a diversion. Possibly a section of the M25. The commuter runs to the Reading and the West Country would be effectively blocked.

The army heartland of Aldershot and all its barracks would also be in danger of being quarantined as would the defence industry plants in neighbouring Farnbourgh. Several hospitals. Windsor Castle may also be caught in the zone.

That would easily run into the millions.

I'm with Rasputin on this one. Never heard anything so far fetched in my life.

It'd be easier getting a someone to plant smack and some weapons and then get couple of coaches of TSG to smash the camp.

That would run into mere thousands.

KCN

Bootiful

06.08.2007 15:36

"then Heathrow will likely have to be shutdown completely...Never heard anything so far fetched in my life. "

Well, I'd agree with that. If I remember right they never even shut down Heathrow when it was being mortared by Irish 'insurgents'. I doubt they would shut it down if Ebola broke out there - they'd just reroute rich folk elsewhere. That doesn't mean the virus that was released wasn't released to disupt the camp. 'They' might not be the government.

This is pre-internet days so apologies for the lack of supporting links and bad memory, but some army punter once got bounced off a BA flight or something similar and sued them. They really went to town on him - they didn't just try to smear him, they hired gangsters to beat him up and trash his house, and they got exposed doing it. These are not nice people you are dealing with, you can't assume that they will act rationally. It's not a rational business, it is not a rational government either. If you were to look at the Iraq invasion in advance you'd think 'Nah, they wouldn't make that mistake surely' - and yet here we are. That is all speculation but what isn't is the fact this is a lab virus.

It might be a third party with access to that strain, there is a wheen of possibilities. Whether or not they did or they didn't I doubt will be revealed even when the documents are released in 100 years. What I am sure of is this is a indication of how biosecurity is fallible, and that is a stick to beat the bio-chem companies and state-organisations and meat-producers. I bet that Lab is more likely to be compensated than prosecuted, ala Bernard Matthews.

Danny

follow the money

06.08.2007 17:13

300,000 doses of the vaccine hae been ordered from Merial, the company that released the virus - even though it hasn't been decided whther to use them.
It is a good job we have companies like this to protect us from companies like this.

After initial denials it came from there it is now being hinted that the virus was released by the floods there. So presumabaly the building is crawling with the virus - or at the very least the virus was not sufficently contained there.

Danny
Homepage: http://www.thepigsite.com/swinenews/15206/fmd-outbreak-limited-to-one-premises-over-three-sites

Renegade

06.08.2007 17:34

Not impossible. It could be some disgruntled rogue element (see 9/11 anthrax). But they would have to be sure that they weren't ever going to make into a courtroom with a determined CPS and impartial judge bearing down on them and that they weren't going to found in the foundations of a supermarket in 50 years.

They'd be staring down the barrel of the maximum tariff for terrorism the crown could contrive against them and the Home Office playing football with them for the rest of their lives- as would any party that contracted such a lunatic plan. Which would mean the contracted party would be very expensive and very professional. The potential for loss of containment/control is massive (see above). Which would suggest the work of someone very unprofessional, totally insane or out to damage more than just a few activists.

That's a way too much risk for bunch of "smelly hippies".

Like I said, it'd be far easier and more beneficial for someone to plant something nasty, make a big show of the bust, perhaps plant a "violent element", and let the media have a field day with the old "rent-a-mob" angle.

They tried it to a minor degree at the Drax camp, but the press were less than impressed at the supposed "weapons". But that was an lazy afterthought on behalf of the plod. A proper fit up would be too easy. As has been suspected of numerous London May Days under the Tories.

They did it more successfully at Genoa and got away with it too.

KCN

Nice one conspiraloons!!

06.08.2007 19:53

Thanks to Danny and others for this. I have long wanted a really good example of how the average conspiracy theorist lacks that basic grip on reality that most people take for granted. Now I have a useful link to send round to anyone who is even contemplating believing the crap (9/11, 7/7, ect) that these sad deluded egotists come out with. Please dont stop here. We want to know ALL your theories about Foot and Mouth. They make my point very well, as well as being hilariously funny.

P.S. Rasputin, nice rational comments but why bother? You are just giving them the attention they crave.
P.P.S. Cost of Policing the climate camp? About 3 million. Cost of a foot and mouth outbreak? Tens of millions. But please dont let the maths spoil your fun.

Big lizard

Big Lizard

06.08.2007 20:16

It's obvious. It was a suicide commando of holy cows outraged at the death of their comrade last month.

They brainwashed some dupe with opposable thumbs to get the disease to them an infected themselves as an act of martyrdom.

Don't you people read the news?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6916077.stm

Shambo's Army

rah

06.08.2007 22:08

"Sometimes the state acts irrationally, the left hand of government not knowing what the right hand is doing. I doubt Gordon Brown ordered it but I don't share your certainty. Whatever you believe there isn't a plausible explanation for the outbreak that is defensible by the state. "

Here's a plausible explanation for what happened: they fucked up. it's surprisingly common.

one fairly common conspiracy theory staple is that everything happens for a reason and the state, given some vaguely god-like power, never messes up - the things that look like mistakes are actually just covers for the "real" story. it's bollocks. the state is shite and fucks up all the time - that's one of the problems many of us have with it.

"When your paranoia proves right five or six times then it is natural to accept a few false positives."

what are these five or six times you speak of?

oh, and from Big Lizard:

"P.S. Rasputin, nice rational comments but why bother? You are just giving them the attention they crave."

To be honest? I'm bored and need a hobby.

rasputin

Hi Richard

06.08.2007 22:21

"If the company and staff remain unpunished - as they surely will considering Bernad Mathews recieved compenation for importing Bird Flu - then it indicates government complicity."

And guess what - as the company who leaked the virus get awarded the contract for the vaccine.

So, another 'conspiraloon theory' proven correct. And yet a known MI5 infiltrator tries to gloat, without actually contributing anything but smear. Don't you realise if anyone ever needs confirmation it anything is correct they simply need to see you post against it ?

Danny

excuse me?

07.08.2007 00:03

"And guess what - as the company who leaked the virus get awarded the contract for the vaccine.

So, another 'conspiraloon theory' proven correct. And yet a known MI5 infiltrator tries to gloat, without actually contributing anything but smear. Don't you realise if anyone ever needs confirmation it anything is correct they simply need to see you post against it ?"

what?

since when does "government hands lab contract to recoup losses" equate to "state releases toxic virus to disrupt 800-hippies-in-a-field threat"?

oh, and who's the MI5 infiltrator?

rasputin

the profit virus

07.08.2007 06:31

>since when does "government hands lab contract to recoup losses" equate to "state releases toxic virus to disrupt 800-hippies-in-a-field threat"?

Um, for a start, the term hippy is deragotory and patronising, and I'll bet money here that there are more than 800 people who attend. Plus the financial arguments put before simply fall apart when you compare the costs of the outbreak (millions) to the net worth of the aviation industry.

The government haven't handed the contract to Merial to "recoup losses" as Merial haven't made any losses from this. They handed them the contract as Merial have the exact vaccine for this strain of FMD - which is no major coincidence since this strain was released by them. You can argue that the strain wasn't released deliberately, but it hasn't been explained how it was released and the fact the mainstream press have already tried to explain it away with contradictory stories raises suspicion. It is either deliberate or negligent biosecurity of a scale that is just as bad as being deliberate. And rewarding that incompetence/duplicty with a contract was just predicted here so here is another prediction - if any inquiry does identify Merial and if Merial are subsequently fined, the fine will be less than the contract. Sort of like Bernard Matthews was rewarded for importing HN51 from Hungary ( a story that was broken here by your friendly neighborhood conspiraloon 4 days before the mainstream ran with it btw ).

>oh, and who's the MI5 infiltrator?
Big Lizard, apologies if that seemed to be aimed at you.

Danny

theory into fact

07.08.2007 06:49

According to the mainstream media conspiraloons, they lie about their products, have a track record in virus releases, and the products produced there weren't even for UK use.

"Merck said last night the earlier virus contamination happened on a poultry farm business outside of the UK at some stage before 1997 but it could give no further details. The company has also been accused of exaggerating product claims. Last year, the National Office of Animal Health in Britain rapped Merial for allegedly claiming in promotional material that an equine flu vaccine would provide protection from a single dose whereas the official literature said the onset of immunity was 14 days after two doses. Investigations yesterday were concentrating on the production chain involving the fatal strain. The strain, currently at the Institute of Animal Health centre at Pirbright, was used in a batch made at the Merial lab last month. Pirbright has been the main centre for foot and mouth research in Britain since 1924 when the Government decided to concentrate investigations into the disease in a single place. The Institute of Animal Health has shared the site with Merial and its former private sector occupants since 1990.

All of the foot and mouth vaccines being manufactured under the Merial label are exported."

Danny
Homepage: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/07/nfandm307.xml

rasputin

07.08.2007 09:06

"oh, and who's the MI5 infiltrator?"

It's standard practice with conspiraloons to brand anyone who doesn't agree with them as being a spy or a shill. It's one of the more endearing features of the affliction.

Scarily some may actually believe it too. Which tells you all you need to know about their "theories". I suppose it must be some form of denial/coping mechanism that translates into a grandeur delusion, "My theories are true! They scare the government! That makes me a threat! So they send agents out to discredit me!"

Which is also a very common feature of paranoid schizophrenia.

"delusions of persecution, reference, exalted birth, special mission, bodily change, or jealousy;"

http://www.schizophrenia.com/szparanoid.htm

Quite why the Government would waste time arguing over the Internet and not just shoot them, or at least hack something highly illegal onto their hardrives and fake an evidence trail, if their theories were true is beyond me- I'm sure they'd be a massive queue of non-conspiraloon forum admins willing to do the job for them. Even at paying National Minimum Wage for the arguers, it'd be cheaper to fit them up or bump them off.

Let's face it, if an MI6 agent can turn up dead in the woods and little happens about it, then what would stop them from popping off a few "Truthseekers".

Paying people to argue with them is just as absurd as any of their less mundane theories. But if they really are hiring, let me know. They can send me messages through my neighbours dog, I've worked out his code now.

The Cult of the Dead Cow

Standard mispractice

07.08.2007 10:13

And it's standard practice with the MI5 infiltrator - who I know personally, unfortunately - to smear, misrepresent, post under multiple names on the one thread and generally discourage any investigations critical of the state.

I wonder how much the state has spent on one 'smelly hippy' on a glorified roundabout in London ?

Brian Haw: 'It is strange that they are spending so much money prosecuting me'

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/article2841355.ece

Danny

Interesting

07.08.2007 17:12

So how exactly do you know this person is MI5? You must be close to some very serious business to have attracted the attention of an MI5 agent, as opposed to some common old CID plant, private detective or Special Branch. MI5 field officers are the very serious and heavy end of state security.

MI5 are apparently very difficult to spot too as their training in blending in is rigorous as is their cover identity. The old cliche is that it takes a spook to spot a spook.

Field officers as rule will be under 6 foot but exceptionally short either, medium build (as a recruiting requirement) and generally not standing out from the crowd in any way, will have spent months being versed in the culture, opinions and attitudes of the group they are infiltrating so as not to say the wrong things and draw attention to themselves. They will have comprehensive and complete fake identities. They have it drilled into them never to reveal their true job to anyone but one trusted person in their whole lives otherwise they will be considered compromised.

A classic infiltrator tactic is to get close to command and control level and steer the target towards some sort of extremist action. As we have seen in the case of the some IRA activities and rumoured also with FFJ and the Animal Rights groups. Infiltrate, pervert, discredit.

So you must have done some digging to unearth a real live spook. With some extreme risk to yourself? I'd also assume that you have been threatened, or had people close to you threatened?

Quite how you have managed to achieve that and not only remained at liberty but also not have attracted any public attention is intriguing.

The Cult of the Dead Cow
Homepage: http://www.personneltoday.com/Articles/2004/03/17/22906/spies-like-us.html

.

07.08.2007 20:28

"I'd also assume that you have been threatened, or had people close to you threatened?"

Yup, both. Truth is I don't actually know who his employers are - uncertainty when dealing with Spookplants is unavoidable. I only know he is intelligence - the CID told me that much.

Danny

Sabotage is suspected over foot and mouth

07.08.2007 20:47

The real problem with people smearing others here is it means only the mainstream media get to investigate stories. So is it the Health and Safety Execututive or the Times that you consider conspiraloons ?

Sabotage is suspected over foot and mouth

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2218183.ece

The deliberate release of viral material, possibly in an act of sabotage, may have caused the foot-and-mouth disease outbreak, officials said last night. The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) said in a report ordered by the Prime Minister that “release by human movement [of the FMD virus] must be considered a real possibility”. This could have been deliberate or accidental.

Danny

MI5 OSA DPA

07.08.2007 22:21

Strange that you should chose to ignore the threats and endanger yourself and others by posting here.

CID aren't normally privy to the fake/real identities of MI5 field officers. Special Branch sometimes are, and only for necessary operational reasons. As a rule anyone who is in the position to identify a spook will be made to swear the Official Secrets Act. Which would make leaking a spooks identity a criminal offence and at the least certain career suicide, even if it was an accident. Even lowly constables have had the Data Protection Act hammered into them which alone would prevent them divulging any information on third parties to third parties.

So I can only assume you have misunderstood something and jumped to conclusions. Either that or your local CID are tired of their jobs if not their liberty.

The Cult of the Dead Cow

assume

08.08.2007 01:39

"Strange that you should chose to ignore the threats and endanger yourself and others by posting here."
I'd be happy to discuss that further offline or on a secure channel - for the reasons you mention.

"CID aren't normally privy to the fake/real identities of MI5 field officers."
No, but they do know where their intelligence comes from.

This sort of helps distract from the FMD thread and it's implications though no ? I do hope and expect someone will start another one though.

Danny

The plot thickens...

08.08.2007 07:49

´Big Lizard, apologies if that seemed to be aimed at you.´

So I´m working for the secret state against Danny and the enormous threat he represents to the hidden dark forces that control our lives......

Yes Danny´s insight is so acute that he alone can tell that I am an ´MI5 plant´rather than an activist who is totally fucking sick of seeing IMC UK and other radical sites hosting inane conspiracies instead of real reports and dialogue.

So produce your evidence, or do you just want everyone to think that you are a sad deluded fuckwit with possible mental health issues?

Big Lizard

2 + 2= 5

08.08.2007 08:48

"I'd be happy to discuss that further offline or on a secure channel - for the reasons you mention. "

If the intelligence services or anyone shady are watching you, you will already have more bugs than a dog's blanket. Any Internet account and telephone you have access to has already been had a paralell tap placed on it and live data streams are recorded every time you are online. And just in case you start hijacking WiFi they have already done the same to this domain via the ISP and Indymedia would never ever know about it unless it slipped out in a trial somewhere.

Your passwords have been hacked. Anyone who has been touched by the surveillance warrant has been told they will go to prison if they tip you off. They are watching your bank accounts.

You have no "secure channels." So the fact you are posting this stuff here makes me disbelieve you.

Read the Official Secrets Act of 1989

"Section 1 - disclosure of security and intelligence information. It applies only to members of the security and intelligence services, and to others who work with security and intelligence information (and who have been informed that they are affected by section 1)."

Any officer with the capacity to reveal state secrets knows it would be an offence to do so. The security services don't just sloppily throw around identities and information that could compromise identities like junk mail. That an officer should tell you that someone was an agent even indirectly is pretty absurd.

So really your story doesn't strike me as at all plausible. It doesn't add up. You have either totally misconstrued something or you are just making it all up.

The Cult of the Dead Cow

self evident

08.08.2007 10:35

"So produce your evidence"
I've offered to but here I'm not even allowed to name names. So look at the evidence in this thread. Someone posted a theory that they themselves described as paranoid, others accepted it. I found it implausible but read up on it in the mainstream - the only source of facts available to me given my location. I found the sequence of the virus identified it as a lab virus and reported that as an indication that would fit the original theory, so suggested it was worth examining. The sole argument presented against it was the expense of an FMD outbreak compared to the minimal threat posed by the camp. I pointed out millions have been spent on Brian Haw, a fact that surprises even him, so we can't always expect decisions made by the state to appear rational to us. I then pointed out that Merial were being rewarded for this outbreak financially, as I'd predicted they would be. In fact, that was my sole prediction here and it proved true (oh, I also predicted more than 800 people will attend climate change camp, we can't know that yet).

BigLizard then appears and ridicules me as conspiraloon, and a sad deluded egoist. While also predicting the cost of policing the camp will be about £3 million without supporting evidence ( and missing the point about the amout spent on Haw).

I was asked what times my paranoia has proven correct, and I provided the example of when I broke the story here of Bernard Matthews importing BirdFlu from Hungary four days before the national press. It is a related subject and I think gives me the right to comment and some freedom to speculate. I then posted about Merials track record of virus release. And then the HSE report was published that was reported by the Times as 'Sabotage is suspected over foot and mouth'. That is MSM speak for a deliberate release of the virus ( the word sabotage implies the company and state can't be blamed but MSM always start from that assumption on any story).

So someone posted here speculating that this was a deliberate release to disupt a protest event. I didn't claim that at any point but I have posted second-hand info to show, to a reasonable level of doubt, it was a deliberate release. The reasons behind that release are speculation and can't be known until we know who did it, and perhaps not even then. However, I feel I have acted like a journalist on this thread, albeit an armchair journlist who is easily distracted into personal abuse. While some of the people arguing against me have made assumptions with little evidence, smeared me unfairly, distracted from the issue and discouraged further investigation.

I'm sure most of these people are well-meaning, trying to stop IM being discredited. This is a newswire though not a forum, investigation should be encouraged and that implies a certain level of speculation, especially when it proves correct. News media will make mistakes - if they didn't they wouldn't be able to break any story that wasn't just a press release. Of course certainty should be challenged but a deliberate attempt to polarise debate or discourage investagation should be frowned upon. Regular attempts to discourage investigation, smear, obfuscate etc are in my opinion the hallmarks of an agent - and I say that with some experience as many regulars here may remember. It is a sad day when the mainstream press is able to break stories that we could have broken if we weren't subject to the conspiraloon abuse.

> Any Internet account and telephone you have access to has already been had a paralell tap placed on it and live data streams are recorded every time you are online.

With the greatest respect, neither you nor they know what internet channels I can get access to, though I have little doubt they know the normal channels that evey activist uses. Even the panopticon blinks.

>You have no "secure channels."

That is presumptive and wrong.

>That an officer should tell you that someone was an agent even indirectly is pretty absurd.

You've misunderstood what I was saying.

>So really your story doesn't strike me as at all plausible.

You've filled in too many blanks incorrectly to call it 'my story' at this point.

>You have either totally misconstrued something or you are just making it all up.

Well, that is a more sensible condemnation than diagnosing someone you haven't met as crazy so I respect that, but I'm prepared to take a lie-detector test on any of my claims and the person I've accused isn't. As to the other alternative, that I've misconstrued something, that implies I am operating on the one piece of evidence. I'm not, I have a mass of evidence - all of which I may still have misconstrued, though I hope from this post you see I've given some thought to this and am not given to certainty lightly. At the very least I hope you consider the conspiraloon tag as an unwarranted smear.

Danny

Lastly

08.08.2007 13:27

Well forgive me if I am not at all convinced by your case. I'm not qualified to assess mental health. But I do know that there are many motivations for many people to make many claims. If false claims are made, it could be error, it could be a smear, it could be revenge, a grudge and it could very well be mental illness.

The fact the person refuses a lie detector test doesn't in itself prove any guilt. It just proves they are refusing a lie detector test. Again the reasons for the refusal could be numerous and being guilty is only one of them. Assuming that this claim isn't false for the reasons mentioned above.

The evidence that you have offered so far is very weak and circumstantial. I would assume that your first instinct would be to offer something you considered concrete and persuasive. So, unless you have some very clear and verifiable evidence such as sharp pictures of Alleged Spook coming and going from Millbank and a good explanation of how you managed to obtain them, or less likely some Home Office ID, I think it's pretty shaky territory.

There is nothing mad about operating under the assumption that anyone in your sphere could possibly be a spook. If anything, I think you may be severely underestimating exactly how well-resourced and lightfootedly in/pervasive they can be. But it is quite damaging to throw the accusation around without a solid case. Ultimately most damaging to yourself.

Now given that on this thread alone you appear to have accused several people of being a spook for no self-evident reason, this would easily look to others like the classic 'man in the street shouting at traffic' we see so much of since "Care in the Community". I'm not suggesting that really is the case, but could easily be read that way.

The Cult of the Dead Cow

culling curiosity

08.08.2007 15:08

No, I don't have any evidence of them entering MI5 HQ - and if I had I'd expect that evidence to be dismissed or discounted too (faked photo, innocent reason for being there etc) - all evidence is simply indictive in this realm. You seem rational enough that if I met you over a PC I believe I'd be able to convince you of what I am saying with the evidence I have, even if you'd need a psychatric report and a polygraph too. Regardless of the veracity or accuracy of my claim of the agent or of my own sanity or motivation, you accept that they read here which is more than some people do. I never asked but I hope you realise that disinformation is used both in the mainstream and independent media by various nefarious corporate or state organisations at least since 2001 - I haven't tried to trace the history of it before then, and therefore it is rational to assume it does occur here.

Since you haven't taken umbrage at my outline of how these people post I hope you see why it is important not to mimic their style and agree with me that speculation that may seem outlandish shouldn't be dismissed out of hand without investigation on a news site. To call someone a loon is either accurate or false, but it is never helpful and can't be remotely diagnosed. Such smears, coupled with outlandish events, can be damaging to any psyche. Luckily I am friends with other people who have been in groups which have been infiltrated and their understanding of the damage and doubt that causes is reassuring - as is reading of other cases that are proven.

It certainly wasn't my intention to hijack this thread, the seeming deliberate release of FMD is a huge story regardless of motivation. So far I have only recycled news but i have tried to progress and record the story here. And so far where I have speculated I seem to have been proven correct.

Now, to progress the story, we'd look at motives and access which would require further speculation. We'd also look at the important implications of the release, whether it was deliberate or accidental, to a range of issues : the security biosecurity in other locations and with other types of virus, why the lab is situated there, general pharma company ethics, and the implications to vegetarianism would be my personal interests but there are others. So I hope someone else does progress this on another thread once more information becomes available, and also that people here encourage some speculation and first-hand investigation and ignore those who would discourage that or try to distract or smear. It's bad to self-censor but worse to censor others unfairly.

Danny

Really pathetic

09.08.2007 00:54

'BigLizard then appears and ridicules me as conspiraloon, and a sad deluded egoist. While also predicting the cost of policing the camp will be about £3 million.'

So that your evidence? That I take the piss out out of you? Yeah, cos you are suuuuch a threat to the establishment aren't you Danny? Or is it because I predicted the cost at 3million? Did that special knowledge come from inside the security services? Or did I just watch a newscaster quote it on 'London Tonight' like everyone else?

Get some help for fucks sake.

Big Lizard

Original poster..

11.08.2007 18:29

Well, I couldn't access Indym. for ages and so it's been interesting to read what others thought. I knew there'd be some abusive and mocking replies, but I still believe in questioning everything, even if this means I'm wrong sometimes. There is always someone (and I too suspect it's one person with several names!) to tell you you shouldn't be looking any closer at an issue. Why that aggression?! That always makes me look even harder! I'm grateful to other people on here with curiosity in their hearts, that make me feel like I'm not alone in questioning things. What we have in common is a love of the truth - even when it's uncomfortable, painful or makes us question held beliefs.

Help needed

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