shut the fuck up you naive, brainwashed arseholes. 9/11 conspiracies are of no importance for the working class.

I am so fed up of having to wade through pointless drivel about 9/11... No one here cares, there are far, far more important things to be dealing with.

For one, I understand what anarchist is saying.

Of what importance is 911?
It's not important to Afghans, especially those families and people bombed by the US.
It's not important to Pakistan, especially those people the Army is supposed to be fighting with.
It's of no importance at all to Iraqis, especially the half a million who have died because of the 'terror threat posed by Saddam'.
Totally irrelevant to Lebanon, because the June war there had nothing to do with international terrorism.
Nothing to do with UK Muslims who are being targetted in the UK because of the war on terror.
And nothing to do with the attack on civil liberties being experienced by people in the UK and the US.

And while we're at it we shouldn't leave out that idiot conspiracy theorist, and former National Security Adviser under Jimmy Carter, and Trilateral Commission founder, Zbigniew Brezizinski. Who opened his big trap in front of the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee in February and drivelled on about a staged terror attack inside and outside the US being used to justify an attack on Iran... why doesn't he do the (white) working class a favour keep his big fat stupid trap shut!!!

I'll leave it to you to decide about Jefferson or anarchist and which one is the idiot.

you know what i think, i think that by now anyone who cared either way would have already made thier mind up and would have seen enough evidence,for both points of view,that seem to back up thier beliefs.
please stop putting up 9/11 conspiracy rubbish on indymedia cos it detracts from the movement

please listen. there is no conspiracy. not in the usa, not in israel and capitalism is also no conspiracy...

read and listen:

 http://resourcepage.wordpress.com/

 http://www.radio4all.net/pub/archive/04.01.05/ georgekingiv@yahoo.com/369-1-20041123-RAT2004-conspiracism-pt1.mp3
 http://www.radio4all.net/pub/archive/04.01.05/ georgekingiv@yahoo.com/369-1-20041123-RAT2004-conspiracism-pt2.mp3

hope that can be usefull

I could almost suspect all these comments to have issued from one cover-up artist. The ridiculous ad hominems alone ring obvious alarm bells.

Someone asked what good is talking about 9/11 to Palestinians, Iraqis, Afghanis, Pakistanis and all the other poor people swept up in this 'Gigantic Hoax', as Nicholas Rockefeller termed it in October 2000? What no commenter here so far seems to have understood is that ALL THESE PEOPLE would not have suffered if this LIE had been sorted out conclusively by the original Kean Commission!

You are fooling yourselves if you think this is 'hurting the movement'. What movement? There IS no 'movement' in the west since Shock and Awe, Fear and Loathing took over and washed all the dreary political theorists away down the drain of history. Yet, surprisingly, the most genuinely active and advanced socialists in the world are the very ones MOST actively engaged in bringing the true perpetrators of 9/11 to justice. Perhaps you 'movement' 9/11 DENIERS should all take a trip to Caracas, Venezuela to see just how far advanced their international legal proceedings really are!

Here's the latest words again from Kean, taken from the article above to reinforce the point that everything that has gone wrong since stems from Cheney's assumption of sole military power on that dreadful day:-

"Fog of war could explain why some people were confused on the day of 9/11, but it could not explain why all of the..investigations and public testimony by FAA and NORAD officials advanced an account of 9/11 that was untrue."

Thomas H. Kean, Chairman, 9/11 Commission 8/4/06

www.patriotsquestion911.com

Who was in charge of NORAD? Cheney. If that doesn't ring alarm bells in your fear deadened brains, nothing will. ANYONE these days jumping in, like here, and trying to divert from this seminal event of the century must necessarily be viewed as someone who, for motives unknown, wishes to bury truth and avoid justice.

Just what are you trying to hide? What guilt prompts you to react so harshly and contrary to previously understood norms of decency and legality?

Are you the same mob who poopoo'd what has since become known as fact re: Lockerbie? I would not be at all surprised.

To the original poster - thank you. You are doing the good people within humanity a great service. Never let this atrocity be forgotten until it is resolved, as resolved it will be.

---
Scientific Poll: 84% Reject [or disagree with] Official 9/11 Story
Only 16% now believe official fable according to New York Times/CBS News poll
Truth Movement has the huge majority of opinion
How will the Bush Cabal react?"
---

Now we know - Cheney/Bush has declared itself Dictator.

Badger's ring true among many people on the Left.

This 911 conspiracy rubbish is a distraction to the important fight for justice, equality and socialism.

Look at the success of the anti-war movement. Blair's had to leave office and get another job where he can be a dangerous nuisance in the Middle East. He got a standing ovation in the House of Commons rather than boos and has avoided jail as a war criminal. That's success. In fact, the movement's been so successful that the US and UK have stayed in Iraq for 4 years, totally looted and ruined it and will probably have bases there indefinitely. Labour Party members are ready to remove any pro-war minister (not), the US Democrats are ready...to support Bush. And by any chance, we'll have war with Iran. What a success!!

And there's been success of the Left in the UK. The Labour Party couldn't find a person to stand for the leadership who represented sort of Left policies. In fact, democratic socialism in dead in the Labour Party. That's success, isn't it?

And over the past 30 years wealth in the UK and US has shifted from the majority to the minority to the tune of trillions. Inequality in the UK is wider now that it's ever been. Social mobility has come to a halt. UK schools are increasingly segregated on race. Hoorah, for the Left.

In fact, I can tell you the exact circumstances and date as to when the West will turn into progressive, anti-racist socialist countries - at least, I can when I'm dreaming.

So, why bother get involved in any of this 911 nonsense, when you can continue use your time so fruitfully achieving next to nothing with 'the movement’. And the fact that the Left has been so unsuccessful on Earth means nothing when our values are so important in our fantasies.

And as for those people in far off places who have been affected directly by 911, take a leaf from anarchist's book: they can go and f*** themselves.

Conspiratoral speculative rant that breaks the following IMC guidlines-

Non news. Anything new here? Or is it just me that remembers having seen all this 'news' before. And didnt 9/11 occur 6 years ago?).

Innacurate and misleading. Stating speculation as fact.

Advertising. Yes the reason for the second hand speculation above is to advertise loads of conspriracy websites.

Repost. Apart the small amount of ranting narrative this is just rehashed ideas that have apeared on this site numerous times before and could have been pasted from any of the previous 9/11 posts requiring zero imagination.

Repeated. See point above.

Does Indymedia UK really have to carry this crap just because it is presently reaching its fashionable peak in the USA? Don't think people will see IMC UK as a credible alternative news source for much longer if they have to wade through this garbage every time they browse the newswire.

Okay, let's for a second assume that 9/11 was all an inside job. Of what relevance is this? If you believe the US government is so all encompassing and powerful that it can plan to kill 3,000 people in New York, and get away with it, then what hope do you have of opposing it?

That's pretty alienating, and also totally ridiculous. The American state was complicit in 9/11 sure, I think most people can agree to that. We can go through all the long list of why jihadists felt that they were at war with America and destroyed the twin towers. Ward Churchill's 'The Justice of Roosting Chickens' is still worth reading.

But it still misses the point. The USA and Britain are currently wrecking havoc in Iraq and have killed as many as 600,000 people, and displaced 4 million. In Afghanistan NATO is pushing an already impoverished people into a hell I can't even imagine. In Palestine the occupation continues, with Gaza strip an open prison for all its residents. In the UK we have ever increasing state power, with dystopian policing and orwellian CCTV systems and prospective ID cards. On top of this the human species is devastating the earth and rushing headlong into a climate crisis that will potentially create such disasters that Iraq will look tame in comparison.

9/11 is merely a footnote to these things. It was a disaster of monumental proportions for the individuals caught in the event, and those who knew people in the towers. But in terms of why Britain and America are currently at war it ranks somewhere alongside Blair's concept of interventionist liberalism, and far below Dick Cheney et al's blood lust. To give 9/11 so much weight is also to remove agency from the far greater death and devastation in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine. The war with Afghanistan should never have happened not because 9/11 was an inside job but because the war in Afghanistan has caused the loss of thousands of lives, the destabilization of the region and a rise in religious radicalism amongst the population.

To stop the wars, halt climate change etc. etc. we don't need more pontificating about 9/11 we need to organise, mobilise, strike and take direct action against the state and capitalism so that we can live in a more humane, human and liberated society.

But whatever, I'm probably just working for M15.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Lets assume for a minute that every claim by the conspiraloons is true (even the ones about holograms,controlled demolitions and alive hijackers). So fucking what?

All that proves is that the system is as ruthless and murderous as anticapitalists have always claimed.

Though some might argue that 650,000 dead Iraqis deserve slightly more attention that 3,000 dead Americans... And then there is Darfur, Chechneya, Palestine, you get the idea...

What would proving 9/11 to be an inside job achieve? Well it would just prove that those who would wipe out millions to maintain their own position had done it again. Albeit on a much smaller scale than previous examples of financially motivated mass murder/negligence.

Who benefits from 9/11 consprialoons aggressively ramming their philosophy down the throats of the anti war/imperialist movement? Thus causing pointless arguments, and activists using their energy to counter problems caused by people who thinks that its everyones duty to listen to them? Oops, that's starting to sound like a conspiracy.

I mean what a bunch of twats. Some poor dear is complaining cos he or she has to wade through conspiracy
theorists stories about 911. Get back in yer pram. Then there is the usual reptile twat signing on as Mr Lizard so David Icke gets another feather in his cap.
Let's lump all the conspiracy loonies theories together, that way we can conveniently forget all the mountain of evidence and unanswered question about the attack on the twin towers and their subsequent collapse.
No to mention, as many of the corporate news channels didn't, the collapse of WTC7 without being hit by a jet liner full the fabulous metal burning aviation fuel.
I don't what movement you are talking about but I guess it might have something to do with your bowels.
I thought it was putting two million people on the streets of London and millions more around the world, only one slight problem didn't stop the war on Iraq. Better you go and check out your local council from there you can learn about property deals and scams to open chemical factories or toxic waste dumps right next to residential
council estates. Money laundering through various european/ Israeli mafia and secret services, bankers and other criminal organizations ooops I am starting to sound like a conspiracy theorists oh no I wouldn't want to upset bowel movers !!!

"Look at the success of the anti-war movement."

Er, where? Are you referring to our wonderful but ineffective turnout just before Iraq went terminal? Or what? I don't see any success. All I see is the seemingly unstoppable and inexorable march of the NWO bankers trampling over everyone's rights at an ever increasing pace. Just what are all you so-called political 'movement' theorists doing? Sod All - even less if you still think 9/11 is a non-starter. It is the KEY to getting the world back on some sort of sane track.

There's some truly dickhead comments here - or maybe these pathetic types have the unenviable job of keeping truth and justice well below the radar of mainstream consciousness?

The only 'movement' I see here on Indy these days is most certainly one from the bowels, not from the head and heart.

If this is truly the level of Indy 'thought' these days, you can stick it right up your MI5

Bottom line. Sort the gross injustice that is the official 9/11 fantasy then we can get back to arguing the 'finer' points of socialism and its way, er, forward.

www.nineeleven.co.uk

If you not too busy preaching your 'evidence' like a Jehovas Witness you might stop to realise that we just dont give a shit how or why the the twin towers came down. The system that spawned Al-Quaida (or the CIA/Mossad/Neo Con plot, depending on your point of view) was there before 9/11 and will still be there if all your pitiful conspiracy fantasies turn out to be true and proven (which they wont). There are some people who are sad enough to believe that if the conspricay theory they cling to like a security blanket gets proven, then the world will miraculously change over night.

There are others occupying the realms of reality who realise that 9/11 is just not very important at all. There were plently of imperialist wars prior to 9/11 and there will be plenty more after. The only way to stop the rot is to build a movement to overthrow the entire rotten system. Some people find this fact a bit too daunting. So they hide in a comfy little bubble called the '9/11 truth movement' where they can kid themselves and others that they are somehow making life difficult for the likes of George Bush. Actually they are just helping to neutralise any real opposition to the ruling elite. The fact that they behave like a bunch of recently converted Scientologists does not do them any favours.

WE JUST DONT CARE. WE HAVE OTHER MORE PRESSING PRIORITIES. DEAL WITH IT!

"To give 9/11 so much weight is also to remove agency from the far greater death and devastation in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine."

Not necessarily. Anyway, you wouldn't say that about any other issue. You wouldn't say "To give global warming so much weight is also to remove agency from the far greater death and devastation in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine" or "To give anti-fascism so much weight is also to remove agency from the far greater death and devastation in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine".


"To stop the wars, halt climate change etc. etc. we don't need more pontificating about 9/11 we need to organise, mobilise, strike and take direct action against the state and capitalism so that we can live in a more humane, human and liberated society."

The same could be said for investigating the death of David Kelly. Except no one would say that. The same could be said about investigating the execution of De Menezes - what does it matter who killed them or why when we are trying to stop wars, climate change etc ? The importance of the truth of any issue isn't always directly proportional to the headline casuality rate. If you had been alive in 1914 you would have ignored the assination of Archduke Ferdinand as 'just some feudal tosser geting what he deserved. The truth is sometimes unknowable, sometimes it is hard to see why it matters either way, but it is still worth having the facts.

"But whatever, I'm probably just working for M15."

I do know an MI5 agent who propagandises here against 911 investigations. That isn't the same thing as assuming everyone else who does so is also MI5. It does make me personally think why would MI5 bother propagandising against 911ers if it was so unimportant or even distracting from the wider movement ?



"Lets assume for a minute that every claim by the conspiraloons is true ...All that proves is that the system is as ruthless and murderous as anticapitalists have always claimed."

A claim that is widely dismissed or rather not even discussed seriously in the US-UK mainstream. So assuming that is true, or even proving it, may be irrelevant you your core beliefs but it would have a great effect on US politics, which in turn would have a great effect on everyones lives.

"Thus causing pointless arguments, and activists using their energy to counter problems caused by people who thinks that its everyones duty to listen to them?"

If someone says something you disagree with or aren't interested in, it is your choice to pick an argument over it, not theirs. If you are arguing that everyone who posts should believe the same thing about every issue then it is you who thinks it is everyones duty to listen to you. If anything, by feeling the need to post dismissively on 911 threads it you who is causing pointless arguments and ensuring the 911 threads are among the most responded to.

Anyway, you regularly smear the 911ers as conspiraloons, so why argue so vehemently with them ? If they are genuinely loons then why would you see them as a loss to your movement ? Are you really blaming the total failure of the peace movement so far on the number of quality people who have been investigating 911 rather than doing whatever it is you claim to do ? No ? So why give them such a hard time ?

With a few exceptions, the comments posted under this article leave me with a sense of dark foreboding. From 'anarchist (what a joke!) to 'antiamerican sickness', they all demonstrate a TOTAL inability to understand what they have read (or perhaps they just didn't bother, being outside their 'brief'?)

How can anyone who is not determined to erase justice from the world ignore what Kean & Hamilton, THE CHAIRMEN of the 9/11 Commission have recently said?

THEY TOO are calling for an independent re-Inquiry. What could be plainer than that?

IMV, ANYONE who attempts to trash or sweep under the carpet, the discrepancies surrounding 9/11 is truly an agent of darkness or central bankers. Madame Defarge has your number. So do we who are physically working to get this greatest crime of the century into the Strasburg Court. You deniers would do well to see how advanced the case has already become.

All power to the poster who mentioned Caracas. There are a weekly increasing number of influential people not cowed down by the psychopathic Cheney, now known in some Beltway circles as Grand Vizier Voldemort, and they are acting on their consciences - something 9/11 Cover-up artists lost long ago.

THIS GROSS CRIME IS NOT GOING AWAY. ITS AUTHORS DAYS OF FREEDOM ARE NUMBERED.

www.patriotsquestion911.com
ae911truth.org

If you want to get out from under this ongoing Fascist nightmare then CARPE JUGULUM - NOW.

"911 truth" folk.

* Why not invest your energy in investigating those real, local criminal conspiracies mentioned above?
* Why resort to abuse every time someone disagrees with you?
* Isn't it plausible that people post against you here because they disagree, not because they work for MI5?
* Why doesn't it worry you that the main group of you in the UK is run by "ex" counter-subversion MI5 agents?
* What difference would you see in people's attitude to the state and injustice if they believed that you were right?
* Isn't apathy and disempowerment the logical response to your scenario of invulnerable and omniscient US forces?
* Why no attention paid to the Kenya embassy bombings? Were they a "false flag" thing too?
* Yes, Bush et al are bastards. But would John Kerry or Al Gore have been any different?
* How could such a massive operation be launched and covered up just 9 months after Bush got into the White House?
* Why do certain individual witnesses carry more weight for you than the mass of evidence on the other side?
* What do you think would be achieved by a anti-war movement entirely composed of 911 believers?

Danny your point about de Menezes illustrates why 911 "Truth"ing is a distraction from the real issues. To get justice for Jean Charles, should supporters campaign for a re-opening of the 911 inquiry?

By "Truth"ers logic, he's a victim of paranoia launched by the "War on Terror", which came from one single event on one day outside of history and if that event was shown to be caused by the forces benefitting it then... what would happen? The police would say sorry, admit they're killers and ...

Because the Metropolitan Police never wrongly shot anyone else, right? No-one with dark skin died at the hands of the police before 11/9/2001?

If folk want to "investigate" YouTube footage and DVDs sold by US "patriots" as a hobby, that's their lookout. But condemning the rest of us for not seeing it as the key to the global anarcho-zen revolution shows a lack of perspective that I guess isn't all that surprising.

And 2 possible reasons why folk call out 911ers on Indymedia:
* It's embarrassing to be associated with them even indirectly (remember when they were saying "911 was a hoax"? when the massive hole in downtown NYC was still an open wound?)
* Baiting monomaniacs is easy and kind of fun

This posting is as credible as any other on here - I can't see why it attracts such ire...

you see there is no terrorist threat, there are no islamic fundamentalists, iran is a great country (doesnt matter that they hang gay people cause theyre anti imperialist), the twin towers were holograms, there were no hijackers, it was obvioulsy a massive conspiracy made by some politicians.....now if you'lll excuse me i'll continue living in this stupid fantasy, cult like world of mine in which i can spout off this kind of shite with the most miniscule amount of 'evidence' or reason....

next thing you know these conspirancy nuts will start believing david irving the holocaust denier, cause that was a big cover up an all wasnt it?!

One argument that has been used against 911ers here is that people investigating it is a distraction from the REAL issue ( although you can't even say what the real issue is it seems to consist of the mid-east invasions and global warming ).

I pioneered this argument on IM a couple of years ago for the same purpose, but I'm afraid it is baseless as it could be used equally by anyone on any issue. For instance, why waste your time bothering about the million of so dead Iraqis when Global Warming could kill billions ? Why worry about the BNP who kill very few when the Labour&Conservative party are guaranteed to reign through slaughter ?
The truth is we all have our own priorities and interests and strengths, IM is a digest of a thousand different points of view not a political party with a party whip.

"If folk want to "investigate" YouTube footage and DVDs sold by US "patriots" as a hobby, that's their lookout. But condemning the rest of us for not seeing it as the key to the global anarcho-zen revolution shows a lack of perspective that I guess isn't all that surprising."

True, but condemning all 911ers as conpiraloons is equally mistaken and removing the heated language on one side will reduce it on the other side. Anyone on either side of any argument who claims 'ultimate-truth' should be treated with suspicion but that does cut both ways.

"And 2 possible reasons why folk call out 911ers on Indymedia:
* It's embarrassing to be associated with them even indirectly "

That is quite a frank admission of error. If you wrote a letter to a newspaper letters page you would hardly feel associated by the opinions of the other letter writers. For someone to post on IM about any subject does not reflect on anyone else who doesn't post on that subject. For instance, people sometimes post about the evils of enforced flurodisation. I don't have an opinion on the subject so I don't respond. Now you may see that as a 'nutty issue' but a lot of established truths were once 'nutty issues'. The mainstream filters out alternative opinions so it is incumbent on independent media to provide a wider range of opinion whether or not you agree with the article. What should be embarrassing to the anti-911ers is not association with others opinions, but by their own lack of contribution on other subjects (at least under these pseudonymns). If your basic refrain is 'Stop distracting us with this nonsense' then the correct response is 'Stop choosing to be distracted by what you consider nonsense'.

If you were in a social centre and someone said something you felt was foolish, it is more rational to ignore them or argue politely against their statement rather than immediately and vitriolically smearing them as lunatics who must be excluded and expunged.


"* Baiting monomaniacs is easy and kind of fun"

Again, a frank admission. Saying something dismissive about someone elses contribution is not the same as actually contributing, you can't give your life meaning by demeaning others. The anti-911 crowd hardly show their humbleness in their posts either you know.

Moderator, as Not amused says, use the excuse that it’s not new to ban this conspiraloon nonsense. Of course, half the stuff on the Indymedia news site is not news but don’t let the facts stop you.

As Anarchist said, that hundreds of people involved or close to the supposed 911 conspiracy would keep quiet and let them get away with it is TOTALLY RIDICULOUS. Look at the facts! The attack happened because the Federal Air Authority, and the $80bn US Air Force, the FBI and CIA were incompetent. If they had done their jobs properly, 911 would never have happened. As a result, hundreds in the US military, FAA and intelligence workers are coming forward to say “my boss’ incompetence contributed to 911 and the murder of innocents”. Hundreds of them. Everyday in the media, in courts, in the Senate, in the Congress. Brave Americans who love their country. So, the incompetents have not gotten away with their incompetence, have they? Oh now those stupid conspiraloons are going to say this isn’t happening. Well, it has in my dreams after the fairy at the bottom of my garden told me personally that it will happen in the future. So, you conspiraloons can shut up!

And when will these conspiraloons learn that there was no conspiracy about 911? Apart from the one that said Iraq’s secret services secretly supported Al Qaeda to do it and this was believed by most Americans before the Iraq invasion and many continue to believe it, even if there’s no facts whatsoever to support it. And if Rumsfeld believed it, as a supporter of the Left, I believe him. So, you tin foil hats, shut up!

There’s nothing conspiratorial about believing that Middle East Muslims are so angry with the US, they would attack it. They’ve been angry for decades and haven’t in the past, but that’s irrelevant. And most of the people wanting to attack the US are from countries that are allies of the US like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, and whose intelligence services work closely with the CIA, but so what? In fact, Al Qaeda’s most advanced terror networks are based in countries that are US allies. And even if a leading UK-based terrorist said in court that he received training by Pakistan’s intelligence services, only a stupid conspiraloon would make something of that. So, you conspiraloons can shut up!

And so what if only one person has been found guilty of involvement in 911 and, according to the BBC, he said that he had been under constant surveillance, and 911 happened because the FBI wanted it to? And, so, what, if the Justice Department says it doesn’t have enough evidence to charge Bin Laden with 911? And so what if Israeli intelligence agents caught filming the collapsing towers went on Israeli TV recently and said they had some of the hijackers under surveillance and warned the US government about the attacks? That just proves that people have come forward to whistleblow on US incompetence. So, you tin foil hats can shut up!

And, of course, the capitalists are imperialists and would have gone to war with Afghanistan, Iraq, intervened in Somalia and could strike against Iran without 911. These idiot conspiraloons don’t know that Bush has a magic wand. He waves it, and hey presto, the US public, US media, US politicians, all support wars with countries for no reason. Indeed, so what if the 911 was revealed to be a myth that would mean the end of Neo-con support in the West? It’s irrelevant. So, you conspiraloons, shut up!

And you know what really makes me mad? These idiot, conspiraloon, Pilots for 911 Truth. They analysed the flight data recorder for the plane that smashed into the Pentagon and have said it shows that the plane was 400 feet in the air one second before the smash took place. Yes, would you believe it? They’re claiming the plane couldn’t have hit the Pentagon just because the flight data recorder says so!! No wonder the FBI and transport authorities are making no comment when these idiot pilots ask them about this. Obviously, the idiot pilots have convinced the flight data recorder to join them in their conspiraloon, tin foil hat nonsense. The flight data recorder is deluded. These tin foil hats are dangerous. Shut them up!!!

And don’t talk to me about Brzezinski, which you haven’t. I’ve discovered that this man is a total fantasist. He was never a Carter National Security Adviser. He has nothing to do with the Trilateral Commission. He never did write books that have influenced US foreign policy. When he says in his book The Choice, that another 911 could be used as an excuse to turn the US into a police state, why should anyone bother with that? But that clever fantasists managed to get into the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and suggest that Bush would stage a terror attack, blame it on the Iranians, and launch an attack against it. This is proof that it’s all conspiraloon nonsense. So you conspiraloons, shut up!!

I’m glad people on the Left reject this stupid, conspiraloon, tin foil hat nonsense. So, we can focus on the fantasy that the working class are going to rise up and overthrow the capitalists and their state any day now and create a socialist society, at the same time as the right are imposing their agenda around the world without much significant opposition from us in the West. And if the same working class we speak for actually trust these right-wing politicians more than they trust us, and think that we are Leftie-looney, dangerous, subversive, fantasists, so what? Why on Earth should we bother about that? Afterall, we all know that the working class are part of the capitalist conspiracy!! Where’s my tin foil hat?

danny - level headed as ever. Thank you.

'anarchist' (yeah, right!) - you have just made The prime cover-up artist blunder by trying to drag this thread down to the level of ADL bait and switch zealots. You're not only totally exposed, you're FIRED. Go stack some shelves or something.

It's good to see all the deniers out in force(hardly?). Strange how this 9/11 issue seems to push their buttons, every time. Their IP's are logged. Their Nuremberg moment is fast approaching. I'm glad not to be in their 'movement' OR shoes...

"Without Precedent: The Inside Story of the 9/11 Commission, by Thomas Kean and Lee H. Hamilton, Alfred A. Knopf, published 2006, available at Amazon.com. ..."

Did I post this before? How many here are aware of it?

In October 2000 Nicholas Rockefeller admitted to Aaron Russo that there was going to be a 'big paradigm shifting event soon'. He also admitted that it would be a gigantic hoax. He found this amusing... The hyper-rich at the CFR have admitted their guilt, so isn't it time the American people took Jefferson's advice?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCmsT_I6SaE - Russo on Rockefeller

No comment 9/11 documentary
 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-751298171535560228&hl=en

---------------------------------------------------------------

"They must find it difficult
Those who have taken authority as the truth,
Rather than truth as the authority"
G.Massey

DALLAS—A controversial new book about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy has raised questions not about the role of a lone gunman or a conspiracy of shooters, but about whether the late president was even even shot at all.

Enlarge Image
Kennedy, just moments before the self-generated cranium-shattering heard around the world.

While the book, Outside the Crosshairs, does not dispute the fact that a massive portion of Kennedy's skull was separated from his head during the 1963 Dallas visit, it maintains that the president suffered fatal explosive- cranial trauma through means completely unrelated to gunshots.

"Certainly extreme force was involved in this tragic death," said Dr. Horace Musashi, the book's author and a professor of computer science at Mount Union College in Alliance, OH. "However, none of the available photographs or recorded footage provides even a shred of evidence that an actual bullet did anything to Kennedy's body. As scientists, therefore, we must consider all other possibilities, no matter how much they challenge the status quo."

Musashi himself favors an explanation known as the single-massive-spike-in-blood-pressure theory.

After 11 years of painstaking research, Musashi uncovered testimony from anonymous eyewitnesses who claimed that unopened packets of duck sauce and soy sauce were hastily removed from Air Force One after the assassination. According to the book's findings, the extremely high levels of monosodium glutamate combined with the stress of mediating an intense international ballistic-missile crisis caused Kennedy's systolic pressure to mount to the point where the right rear quarter of his cranium "shot clean off."


'There are a lot of unanswered questions about the sudden uptick in Brazil-nut imports to Dallas in the year before Kennedy's death.'


"Case closed," Musashi said. "Mass hysteria accounts for everything else."

The book has also sparked popular interest in a number of related theories. Retired police officer Joseph Czyz, who in 1991 was on the scene at Dealy Plaza for JFK-Fest, an assassination-reenactment weekend, claims Musashi and adherents to the single-massive-spike-in-blood-pressure theory have been led astray by carefully placed red herrings.

"A handful of chopsticks and take-out menus does not a credible theory make," said Czyz, who would only be interviewed on his Internet bulletin board for fear of reprisal. "Anyone looking closely enough can see that they were planted to distract us from Kennedy's deadly nut allergy."

Czyz points out that a Planters delivery truck was spotted cruising along Kennedy's parade route by several people, all of whom are now dead. And just two months before the assassination, Kennedy vetoed a bill that would have raised tariffs on cashew imports. "[The president] only had to be within 20 yards of a single open can of party mix to suffer fatal consequences," Czyz said. "Do you think it's mere coincidence that just 14 years later we had a peanut farmer in the White House?"

"In this case, the facts speak for themselves," Czyz added.

Still others, such as part-time music teacher and amateur ballistics specialist Luke Rossamer, refuse to rule out the possibility of lethal projectiles. According to Rossamer, bullet fragments that had lain dormant in Kennedy's head since World War II—when he was attacked by Navy frogmen who were bankrolled by mob boss Sam Giancana and disguised as a Japanese destroyer—were detonated by Ku Klux Klansmen on Nov. 22, 1963.

"Why they waited so long to use the top- secret explosive bullets, I have no idea," Rossamer admitted. "But there's still a lot we don't know about this case."

Although no government officials have offered comment on the new claims, other law enforcement and forensic personnel say the theories show some merit.

"It's true that no one has ever considered that JFK simply got caught in a deadly ninjitsu battle with Texas governor John Connally," said Secret Service agent Kellen Forslow, whose job is so sensitive that he is not even listed as being employed by the government agency. "And I really hope this leads to more people asking more questions and coming up with even more answers. America is still a democracy, after all, and one idea is just as good as another."

'go stack shelves or something' aye, well i did work at kwik save for a few years. but the reason for that is because i come from a sector of society that your obviously not too familiar with, called the 'working class', aye you might have heard of us whilst spouting off one of your daft little rants. funny thing is, in the working class we're not too bothered about 9/11 conspiracies....we're more bothered about the class system, fascism, trying not to get fucked over by the bosses, that kinda stuff....so when you've got something useful to say prick, then come back to me, if not then take your bullshit and fuck off.

Whenever our conspiraloons find their laughable views under attack here or anywhere else they immediately start accusing their critics of working for MI5. This actually demonstrates two very common characteristics of the average truther:

1) Grip on reality/current affairs.
It is an established and undisputed fact that the security services in this country are unable to keep tabs on all the jihadis living here. The same way in fact that they were unable to monitor all the Irish Republicans operating on British soil. They just dont have the resources. Yet our little truth geeks seem to think that MI5 would commit time and resources to monitoring their input on Indymedia. A website largely ignored by everyone except Britain’s less than impressive anarchists.

2) Delusions of grandeur.
Yes the truth movement has the establishment absolutely shaking in its boots. So much so that they are all under constant surveillance even when they are posting on Indymedia.
Yeah right. How many turned out for their last natinal demo at the US embassy. Around 30 if the photos posted here were anything to go by. Wow, what a threat to global capitalism they pose....




P.S. Notice how they have avoided addressing most of the key points levelled against them and their arguments above? Instead prefering to churn out the usual rhetoric and hide in their own world view without even contemplating anyone elses. Does that remind you of anyone?

OK using the phrase "real issue" is clumsy and problematic. One where action can make a real, positive difference. One that empowers those involved in it

But 911ers are claiming a position of authority and ultimate truth. The arrogance and heated language comes from one side, those claiming that the rest of the world is wrong and they have the key to knowledge and liberation. Not only that, but anyone who questions them gets abuse, sarcasm, accusations of working for the state, etc. They're making extraordinary claims and that requires extraordinary proof. This they do not have.

I see no chance of them removing their heated language because they're going to face rejection and incredulity wherever they go, telling people that everything they know is wrong. (Which explains why they act like a cult.)

While there's part of an analogy with a newspaper letters page & an IMC it doesn't go the whole way. Stuff published here looks like other stuff published here. For whatever reasons, 911ers are well-resourced and have access to a lot of broadband time to publish, so the volume of their stuff drowns out more worthy campaigns. (A subjective judgement? I think not entirely)

Why do I post on these threads? Fanatics bother me. People who exhibit such contempt for workers bother me ("Go stack some shelves or something"). People who pretend to be progressive but associate with US rightists and fundamentalists bother me. Folk who debase the idea of truth bother me. Rude people bother me. People who think they're being rebellious when they're actually just being contrary bother me. People whose interests overlap with corporations, right-wing survivalists, "former" MI5 agents and climate change deniers bother me.

If this nonsense isn't consistently opposed, other Indymedia news stories will be undermined because those who want to shoot the messenger will point to a story and say "who cares about that, Indymedia published it and look at all this other crap they published".

At The Big Green Gathering last year the self appointed leader of the 'Truth Campaign' Mr David Shayler said that the twin towers could have been struck by holograms. There is no point in denying this as he said it in front of dozens of witnesses. He also made loads of other claims; like our government had been negotiating with aliens and all kinds of stuff that would frankly be less than plausible in an episode of the X-files. The royal Family being descended from reptiles was my personal favourite. So here is my question:- How can anyone be expected to take this man seriously? Also given that he is the main public face of the 'Truth Campaign' and no one inside the 'Truth Campaign' seems to mind this fact; how can anyone take the rest of you seriously?

Ho: "Folk who debase the idea of truth bother me"

So what do you find unacceptable about Thomas Kean's recent pronouncement?

What do you find acceptable about the FAA vs NORAD 'visions of truth'?

anarchist: I was a ship welder most of my working life. How does that fit into your absurd and diversionary claims? I note you have nothing useful or truthful to add here. Just more lies, deceit and distortions to cover up mass murder of ones own people.

To the JFK diverter: That killing is no longer a 'conspiracy theory' (what a debased phrase that's become) since E.Howard Hunt's deathbed confession that it was a joint CIA/Mafia hit squad authorized by LBJ. Hadn't you heard?

To all you daft museum pieces of anarcho-righty-leftism - global justice would drag you all out of the mire of NWO vacuum-cleaning if you focused properly but it would seem you'd rather keep your heads stuck firmly in the sands of your parochial and perennial problems rather than tackle the big one!

The official story we've been told about 9/11 is absolutely, physically impossible. Get used to it 'cos it's not going away until resolved.

 http://www.911cultwatch.org.uk/

"1) Grip on reality/current affairs.... Yet our little truth geeks seem to think that MI5 would commit time and resources to monitoring their input on Indymedia. A website largely ignored by everyone except Britain’s less than impressive anarchists."

See, you portray yourself as a defender of IM then you slag off IM. Doesn't add up. Since you take the time to post here it implies you see yourself as one of "Britain’s less than impressive anarchists".

As to security services monitoring of IM posts, I can tell you from first hand experience that this does happen. A few months ago my family were taken in for police questioning for an anonymous post I was alleged to have posted here. If you don't believe me I can get a copy of the police record of the event. I was told it was an anonymous 'crimestoppers' report, but my family were told that although the police found it a ridiculous charge they had to act as the 'intelligence cam down from on high'. I even know who the agent was. So maybe it is you who should get a grip on reality.


"2) Delusions of grandeur....So much so that they are all under constant surveillance even when they are posting on Indymedia."

That doesn't just apply to 911ers, the post I was alleged to have written wasn't on that subject. I feel if you were genuinely an activist involved in anything illegal you wouldn't be so dismissive.


"But 911ers are claiming a position of authority and ultimate truth. "

SOME 911ers do so. So do some anti-911ers. As the arguments become confrontational the acknowledgement of common ground and purpose evaporates.

"The arrogance and heated language comes from one side, those claiming that the rest of the world is wrong and they have the key to knowledge and liberation. Not only that, but anyone who questions them gets abuse, sarcasm, accusations of working for the state, etc."

They could say the exact same thing about you though.

"For whatever reasons, 911ers are well-resourced and have access to a lot of broadband time to publish, so the volume of their stuff drowns out more worthy campaigns. (A subjective judgement? I think not entirely)"

That was the case a couple of years ago but it no longer seems to be the case. Of course it is easier to read IM if people don't start lots of threads on the same subject as an existing thread. If there was a story about Iraq and I had a different story about Iraq, I would publish it under the existing thread unless it was more important than the previous story. That's just good manners and housekeeping though, and as such is encouraged by a less competitive attitude.

"People who exhibit such contempt for workers bother me ("Go stack some shelves or something"). "

I think you are deliberately taking offence out of context. That comment was clearly intended to gloat over someone assumed to be a shill losing their job. It was meant to be a put-down but of an incompetent propagandist (allegedly) not of shelf-stackers.

"Rude people bother me."

Um, do the phrases "naive, brainwashed arseholes" and "conspiraloons" not count as rude ?

"If this nonsense isn't consistently opposed, other Indymedia news stories will be undermined because those who want to shoot the messenger will point to a story and say "who cares about that, Indymedia published it and look at all this other crap they published"."

Not so. All media have published crap, even the most respected establishment press. The Times published the faked Hitler diaries but it is still quoted at least in mainstream arenas - no one in the mainstream says ""who cares about that, the Times published it and look at all this other crap they published". See, the problem is you think this 911 stuff is crap, and diminishes other articles you approve of simply for appearing on the same wire. But who is to say someone else wouldn't find some articles you like to be crap ? IM is editted collectively and the collective seems to reflect a range of opinions - which is a good thing. If everyone agreed about every issue this wouldn't be a wire, it would be a blog.


David Shayler is not the leader of anything, nor the main public face of anything other than his own ego, although to be fair you seem to be conflating some of his views with other even more dubious people. This argument is the equivalent of a 911er saying "Harold Shipman believed the official 911 story, so as he was the public face of the official 911 story how can we take anything you say seriously "? It is not a rational argument.

What's this "mass murder of one's own people" nonsense? I'm in Scotland, the 911 dead were in the US. I don't accept that they're my "own people" more than anyone in Afghanistan, Kenya or Iraq.

More questions:
- If the US govt and secret state are so deceitful and evil when it comes to 911, why does the "Truth" movement have such appetite for anything anyone in a uniform says if it fits its worldview?
- Why would E Howard Hunt, who spent his life lying and obfuscating for his view of the US's political good, start to tell the truth on his deathbed? Or would he in fact take the opportunity for one last mindgame?
- What is it about the uniforms and the apocalyptic fantasies ("Their Nuremberg moment is fast approaching" !?) that you love so much?
- Do none of you find the concept of "patriotism" problematic? Promoting nationalist isolationism in a context where you're trying to argue that foreigners are not the enemy?

I sometimes think that the 911 "truth" movement was created solely to undermine and distract the anticapitalist movement, but at least I recognise where my imagination and paranoid tendencies are outrunning the evidence...

but Danny, you're playing the "soft cop" in this thread. By saying "some like this, some don't; some believe this, some don't" you're undermining the facts and allowing 911ers off the hook.

911ers make extraordinary claims that they can't back up. There's no middle position here. They make claims that are flat-out ridiculous and to debate them gives them credibility they don't deserve. In the same way as the rump of climate change deniers you still occasionally see used that tactic successfully for many years. Create the appearance of doubt where there is none. (It's significant that you get CC denial the same places you get 911ism.)

Postmodernist obfuscation! "there is no objective truth" Yuck. Another toxic, disempowering ideology.

Do I claim to know the whole, objective truth? Hell no. But when people want to overturn what the whole world thinks, they have to produce a Lot of very compelling evidence and demonstrate why the evidence in the other direction is wrong.

So the burden is on the "Truth"ers.

Does the {whatever} Commission Report say the whole story? I doubt that very much. I think there must be dozens of military and business high-ups with things to cover-up. Incompetence, obstruction of investigation, complicity in creating Bin Laden and promoting his ideology, badly-designed (or shoddily constructed) towers, insurance claims. Maybe they shot down Flight 77 and are promoting the passengers' downing of it as a feelgood white lie.

But the questions that "Truth"ers pose are wrongheaded ones, leaping on weak evidence for their alternative theories and leaving the powerful utterly unafflicted. That's aside from the political problems with their worldview and choice of allies.

And Shayler:
- his job for years was to undermine political movements
- holds views (quoted above) that are quite enough to put him beyond the pale
- doesn't get hassled by the State as much as other public ex-spies like Tomlinson. Why might that be?
- shouldn't be tolerated in any kind of group at least until he comes clean about what he really knows and what he really did.

>What's this "mass murder of one's own people" nonsense?

I don't understand what you are referring to.


>More questions:
>- If the US govt and secret state are so deceitful and evil when it comes to 911, why does the "Truth" movement have such appetite for anything anyone in a uniform says if it fits its worldview?

Because to the mass audience you are both appealling views any uniform with undue respect ?


>- Why would E Howard Hunt, who spent his life lying and obfuscating for his view of the US's political good, start to tell the truth on his deathbed? Or would he in fact take the opportunity for one last mindgame?

Don't know the guy. Too busy to search at the moment.

>- What is it about the uniforms and the apocalyptic fantasies ("Their Nuremberg moment is fast approaching" !?) that you love so much?

I have never heard the phrase "Their Nuremberg moment is fast approaching" but I confess I do love it. Unfortunately I think that moment is far from inevitable and approaching way too slowly. If Blair and Bush hung tonight it would still be five years too late. If I get to piss on either of their graves it would not satisfy me. Hanging them would not satisfy me. I fear I never going to outlive my hatred and contempt for them.



>- Do none of you find the concept of "patriotism" problematic? Promoting nationalist isolationism in a context where you're trying to argue that foreigners are not the enemy?

Paradoxical to a degree but surprisingly unproblematic. For those of us in Scotland at least, promoting national self-determination also means working for the end of the state that rules us, the wasted rump of the 'greatest empire'.

>I sometimes think that the 911 "truth" movement was created solely to undermine and distract the anticapitalist movement, but at least I recognise where my imagination and paranoid tendencies are outrunning the evidence...

No, that is actually partly true. The 911 truth "movement" was subscribed to by various nefarious extremist-Establishment fronts such as LaRouche. Shayler and Icke too though they are obviously ad-libbing rather than having scripted it. Another possible interpretation is that the 911 truth movement was infiltrated by nefarious forces to undermine and distract the 911 truth movement, and to expunge it from even independent media. Because that is a possibility - that neither of us can ultimately know at this time - neither of us should speak too definitely. There is room in language for uncertainty without weakness. For example, rather than say 'X and Z = Y because...' say 'It seems to me 'X and Z may = Y" because...

>but Danny, you're playing the "soft cop" in this thread.

I'm not a cop. I'm playing the poster who had all these arguments here years ago with other posters and so changed my opinion and learned a smidgeon of humility. And I would ask as someone who used to fill your shoes here that you lay off the 911ers as long as they don't try to dominate the newswire.

"By saying "some like this, some don't; some believe this, some don't" you're undermining the facts and allowing 911ers off the hook."

You don't know the facts. The 911ers don't know the facts. I'd be hard pressed to articulate a personal opinion because I've been stuck in the middle in so many of these arguments without wanting to be. I can repeat personal experience that leads me to think the people who are interested in 911 should be allowed to post here, and philsophical argument for that, as long as it doesn't dominate the wire - as with any issue.

I would suggest to the anti-911 crew, the more you post against it, the more you give it prominence. Seemingly people click on the pages here that have the most responses, rather than obviously more important or urgent ones. People, especially men, have a desire to compete in argument. It is a form of showing off designed to impress a mate. It is a base trait and to be avoided rather than repressed.


"911ers make extraordinary claims that they can't back up."
Uncertainty. Every other generalistation is flawed. So say :
"Some 911ers make extraordinary claims that they can't back up."



"There's no middle position here."

You are either with us or against us ?
There are always a myriad of different positions though you are sometime boxed into a corner and cannot see them. That doesn't mean they aren't there. The people who win a fight are the people who end a fight - there are several ways to do that.

"They make claims that are flat-out ridiculous and to debate them gives them credibility they don't deserve. In the same way as the rump of climate change deniers you still occasionally see used that tactic successfully for many years. Create the appearance of doubt where there is none. (It's significant that you get CC denial the same places you get 911ism.)"

You also get climate change activists who you would class as conspiraloons. It's not an either or thing it is two seperate issues and it would be wrong of either 911 brawlers to try and confuse the two. You say you see 911 stuff on discreditable sites. I assume you mean sites like Rense. You also get Depleted Uranium articles on Rense and that doesn't imply DU is safe or that working against it is disreputable. A reference from a creditable source is creditable but a reference from a discreditable source is mouthwash.


"Postmodernist obfuscation! "there is no objective truth" Yuck. Another toxic, disempowering ideology."
I am fairly sure there is objective truth. I think it would be fairly delusional to expect to know the objective truth subjectively.

"Do I claim to know the whole, objective truth? Hell no. But when people want to overturn what the whole world thinks, they have to produce a Lot of very compelling evidence and demonstrate why the evidence in the other direction is wrong."

Sometimes what the whole world thinks should be over-turned though. It used to be as flat as a map and now it is a globe. People who were smarter than either of us thought the earth was flat. Showing some humility and genuine self-doubt only strengthens whatever position you are arguing.

Ho:

"Do I claim to know the whole, objective truth? Hell no. But when people want to overturn what the whole world thinks, they have to produce a Lot of very compelling evidence and demonstrate why the evidence in the other direction is wrong.

So the burden is on the "Truth"ers. "

That's like saying the burden is on the witnesses, while the murderer is still strangling his victim!

"a Lot of very compelling evidence" - last time I counted, there are over 100 websites that archive the events of the day, all the discrepancies, all the video evidence AND demonstrate why the official story is false. So why try to say otherwise? Perhaps you have not studied any of these sites owing to your own perception of what might be 'true'?

If Thomas Kean's announcement is not enough for you, what is?

"public testimony by FAA and NORAD officials advanced an account of 9/11 that was untrue."

What could be more plain than that?

From here on out, this will descend into unnecessary detail (but you did ask!), some of which will inevitably be impossible to prove, even after a 'Nuremberg Moment' for the architects of this crime.

One facet amongst many. And I won't be drawn into any closed mind responses from anyone, okay?

1) Plane hits North Tower.

2) Fuel burnt off 'within 10 minutes' (Field, 2005)

3) No steel reached weakening point (NIST, 2005, pp. 176-177)

4) Over 1 hour later, North Tower collapses in only a quarter of the time to be expected if there was ANY resistance - note how the floors above the collision point 'collapse' upon themselves TOP FIRST and after the mast.

5) NASA+firefighters record hot spots up to 1500F under WTC1,2 & 7 but NIST ignores this data.

6) What caused these 'Hot Spots'?

Work it out for yourself.

 http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

The white Left have a cynical view of 911 and Muslims.

Their view is that ‘mad Arabs’ and their real and threatened violence against people (white people are the critical group) in the UK and US will mobilise white opinion to pressure on the UK and US to change their imperialist foreign policy. In terms of the UK, the white Left view and the view of many Muslim representatives, is that racism, poverty and secondarily religious gobbledygook, led to 7/7.

Although, granted, one of the objectives of the white Left is to stop oppression of Muslims in the Middle East but also to undermine capitalism. There is another outcome. The white Left are supporting the agenda of the elite to fuel Islamophobia among the general public. Indeed, the white Left agree with the Anglo-American Establishment when they say there are ‘mad Muslims’ who want to seriously attack the West.

The Islamophobia agenda has a general race agenda in the UK. It’s part of an attack on multi-culturalism, a weakening in real terms of the Race Relations Act, and threats to withdraw public funding to black organisations. One black reporter who has been based in the US, gave a talk in London last October and said he left he had come back to Britain of the 1970s.

The white Left’s contemptuous attitude to ‘conspiraloons’ extends to many Muslims inside and outside the UK. Many believe the international terrorism, including 911, is run by CIA and MI6. Granted, Muslim spokespeople and political representatives support the mad Muslim agenda, but that is not the same as saying Muslims in general do. All you need do is ask an Afghan taxi. He will tell you that Afghans don’t have the money to buy the weapons the Taliban currently have and they are getting weapons from Pakistan, who are doing this at the behest of the US. Certainly, most

‘ http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2007/260407Muslims.htm
LESS THAN 25% OF MUSLIMS BLAME AL-QAEDA FOR 9/11 ATTACKS
Big News Network.com
Thursday April 26, 2007

But there is also uncertainty about whether al-Qaeda actually conducts such attacks. On average less than one in four believes al-Qaeda was responsible for September 11th attacks. Pakistanis are the most skeptical, only 3 percent think al-Qaeda did it. There is no consensus about who is responsible for the attacks on New York and Washington; the most common answer is “don’t know.”

These findings are from surveys in Egypt, Morocco, Pakistan, and Indonesia conducted from December 2006 to February, 2007 by WorldPublicOpinion.org with support from the START Consortium at the University of Maryland.’

The Left is failing. The progressive move in the West since the Second World War towards socialism as totally stalled and is moving backwards. Not only does the Left have no explanation for this, they are also profoundly blind to it. They carry on as if it was not happening. Anarchist reflects this when he say that 911 truthers should F*** off, because he’s concerned about the working-class, fascism and the class system. It is the white working-class who vote for and sustain fascist parties. It is the working-class who desperately want immigrants and asylum seekers to ‘know their place’. Working-class people have little interest in voting for parties that are truly socialist. The idea of a working-class revolution leading to socialism is a silly joke to the vast majority of working-class people. Anarchist carries on totally oblivious to this.

Marxism is not explaining what is going on. It does not explain why Bush went to war in Iraq. It does not explain why Blair followed him. It does not explain why the ruling class did not get rid of them both long ago. There are so many areas of life that Marxism fails to explain and is totally ignorant of.

The biggest tin foil hat wearers are those who believe in the socialist revolution.
.

Appeal to authority. Nope. If Mr Kean's analysis wasn't good enough for you when he 1st published that report, why does it become valid when he says something that fits your agenda?

Then in your timeline you give sources for 2 points that don't seem controversial (I note you admit at least that a plane hit the tower), an estimate of the aircraft fuel burn time and the temperatures achieved in the fire. Great.

But then we're off. 4 and 5 are unsourced (4 is also unclear) and that's where you need to be providing the stunning evidence that will shift a billion people's paradigm.

Go give yourself a Brazilian with Occam's razor. Plane flies into tower, takes out supports, starts fire, building collapses spectacularly and quickly when the top bit falls onto the bits below, half the world says "fucking hell". Under the collapsed, burning rubble in cavities and tunnels, firemen note that it's quite hot.

--
And as for this shite from insidejob.

Trying to tar people as racist for seeing that the evidence points to certain people committing an atrocity doesn't wash.

Are Muslims some homogenous group who all think alike? Should I ignore the evidence because some Muslims don't like it? Or should I align myself with people on the basis of open-eyed solidarity against Christian and Muslim fanatics and their anti-people, anti-freedom agendas. Two sides of the same coin.

Is racism in the UK increasing, sadly I think it is. But the way to combat that is NOT to deny the truth or say "a Muslim I know doesn't think OBL done it" (because of course, any Muslim in the UK would know all about Muslims in the middle east since they all know each other and all think alike).

Your argument isn't going to break down the "clash of civilisations" ideology driving the war on terror (on BOTH sides), it reinforces it. You are claiming that there are 2 distinct sides and choosing to side with Fanatic Muslims instead of Fanatic Christians. That's no choice at all. Fuck all fanatics.

Someone who has trouble with evidence and logic is a "conspiraloon" no matter what the colour of their skin or religion. It would be racist to give one group special consideration. Pretending otherwise might get you "anti-imperialism" points but the enemy of the enemy is not my friend.

An agenda that claims "arabs in caves couldn't defeat US military, it must've been an inside job"; that values the lives / privileges the deaths of 3000 US citizens over the victims of genuine US atrocities; that claims that Muslims need to be defended against an easily-manipulated white working class desperate to turn to fascism, rather than seeing their common interest against their rulers; an agenda shared by xenophobes and rightists.

Who's supporting racist structures there?

------------
But hey, guys! This is my last post, so you can make use of your superior bandwidth to have the last word and (doubtless) claim victory. Because the more you repeat shoddy evidence, the stronger it becomes, yeah?

 http://perrylogan.org/Convertng.html

There are no conspiracies?


anarchist there are two classes... -
The ruling class and the rest of us.
So stick that in your dialectical pipe and smoke it.


To all anti truthers...

11/9 is significant because the Laws of Conservation of Momentum and Energy are violated in those collapses.

In lay-man's terms:- near free-fall acceleration through the path of most resistance, i.e. impossible in a "gravity only " event.

So you're left with a few hypotheses about how it could be possible.

e.g.
The "hand of allah theory" in which the (invisible) hand of allah pushes down on the tops of the towers to make them accelerate at 98% gravity, crushing and pulverising and ejecting the steel, concrete and humans below.

or

The NIST report!
Where they don't even go beyond the point of the initiation of the collapse. So no hypothesis about how a steel framed building can collapse at these accelerations especially considering the Laws of physics mentioned above.
They just say "Global collapse ensues" Ha!

Or...
controlled demolition, the most likely hypothesis IMO.
There are others and you can even make up your own if you want.

Everything you know IS wrong and that leaves people open to brain washing.
It's a favourite technique of the white race revenge brigade and the proponents of the "Zionist Theory of History" to recruit new members to their cause. So just waving hands and name calling is not an adequate response to the unimportant and inconvenient fact that 11/9 was an inside job.

As for anarchist thinking that you speak for the whole working class is delusional and cultish i.e. the cult of Marx. Particularly as the idea of the "working class" was moved out to asia by McGreggor, Thatch' et-al in the 1980's and now we have the haves and have-nots, the "stake holder" and "service" economy, and the ruling class go on with their plan of globalisation, the third way and the New World Order. What's next? The final, final solution.....

And to those, who in their comments, use the word "WE" when they're just an atomised individual is also delusional.

It's obvious to me at least that the ruling class would have in place mechanisms that control dissent. It's why they invented jihad and radical islam and even promoted Marxism.

If you know that 70% of the worlds oil is in muslim countries and that you plan military intervention in those countries to secure that oil, then you'd expect the muslims to be pissed off and so you'd need to control that dissent
and use it to your advantage. (how many times have you thought that UKUS foreign policy seems deliberately designed to wind up muslims?).

Then you make sure that everybody knows that the Finsbury Park Mosque is a hot bed of radicalism. You plant ISI operatives in the Mosque to recruit radicalised muslims. Once recruited they're profiled for various operations including suicide bombing. You send them off for training on the Afghan/Pakistan border in training camps that you control. In other words terrorists are recruited, operated and controlled by the intelligence services.

Likewise with 11/9 you know there is a possibility of an outbreak of the "truth virus" in the rest of humanity, so you have in place the mechanisms to control the outbreak, loons, disinformation and "movements" to name three.

Shayler could well be part of that control of truth, he is as far as I know self selected as the main spokesperson for the 911 truth movement in the UK and MI5 only employ psychopaths. Shayler was very publicly outed as a whistle blower rather like the Finsbury Park Mosque was widely advertised as a hot-bed of radical islam.

Overall the anti-truthers on here are the ones that make IM look foolish in that they use the same techniques employed by the likes of Fox News and the MSM in general to support their "arguments".

Until, the left in particular, have a better response to the inconvenient and unimportant fact that 11/9 was an inside job other than the lame "Its not important" and the usual "conspiraloon" ad-hominem and trying to shoot the messenger and lumping all truthers into the same group of nutters and other such poor responses then, the white race revenge brigade will go on recruiting more brain washed; everything you know is wrong types into their zionist theory of history movement. Not only that but, the truth movement will continue to grow and leave this "movement" behind as irrelevant.

In reality the weight of evidence is on the truthers side.
It is naive and a mistake to say that the there's no evidence it's why the truth movement is growing, the evidence is compelling.

So unless you can come up with a rational hypothesis of how it is possible for steel framed buildings to collapse violating Laws of Physics, then I'd suggest you shut up because it's you who look like the reactionary MSM the ruling class run, in the way you respond to "truthers" on here.

i.e. you look like spooks.

Just say no to "movements".

Boycott Oil
Truth Out

At least five of the following are necessary for a diagnosis (as with many DSM diagnoses, they must form a pervasive pattern; for example, a person who shows these criteria only in one or two relationships or situations would not properly be diagnosed with NPD):

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance

"the weight of evidence is on the truthers side."

"the white race revenge brigade will go on recruiting more brain washed; everything you know is wrong types into their zionist theory of history movement."

"an outbreak of the "truth virus" in the rest of humanity"

"unless you can come up with a rational hypothesis of how it is possible for steel framed buildings to collapse violating Laws of Physics, then I'd suggest you shut up"



2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

"the truth movement will continue to grow and leave this "movement" behind as irrelevant."



3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by other special people

"In reality the weight of evidence is on the truthers side."

"Everything you know IS wrong and that leaves people open to brain washing. "

"11/9 is significant because the Laws of Conservation of Momentum and Energy are violated in those collapses."

"It's a favourite technique of the white race revenge brigade and the proponents of the "Zionist Theory of History" to recruit new members to their cause."


4. requires excessive admiration

"So unless you can come up with a rational hypothesis of how it is possible for steel framed buildings to collapse violating Laws of Physics, then I'd suggest you shut up because it's you who look like the reactionary MSM the ruling class run, in the way you respond to "truthers" on here."

"Until, the left in particular, have a better response to the inconvenient and unimportant fact that 11/9 was an inside job other than the lame..."



5. strong sense of entitlement

"So unless you can come up with a rational hypothesis of how it is possible for steel framed buildings to collapse violating Laws of Physics, then I'd suggest you shut up because it's you who look like the reactionary MSM the ruling class run, in the way you respond to "truthers" on here."

"anti-truthers on here are the ones that make IM look foolish"



6. takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11

7. lacks empathy


8. is often envious or believes others are envious of him or her

"As for anarchist thinking that you speak for the whole working class is delusional and cultish"


9. arrogant affect.

"Overall the anti-truthers on here are the ones that make IM look foolish"

"And to those, who in their comments, use the word "WE" when they're just an atomised individual is also delusional. "

Response to HO and WikiAdmin with thanks for a very well reasoned and sincere article from that ideal human 'Nobody'

Ho first:

"Appeal to authority. Nope. If Mr Kean's analysis wasn't good enough for you when he 1st published that report, why does it become valid when he says something that fits your agenda?"

That's as far as I need to go into your response. Anyone who calls the search for truth and justice 'an agenda' needs to at least revise their philosophy on life. To answer your baited and frankly tautological query:

When Mr Kean first published the 9/11 Commission Report, many were already convinced of its whitewashedness. My own suspicions of illegal activity against humanity amongst a permanent ruling clique stretch back, through years of research, to the 17th Century. Nothing I have ever studied since has changed the basic course of history. My suspicions that 9/11 was a 'gigantic hoax', as it has been subsequently revealed by no less a 'personage' than Nicholas Rockefeller, stemmed from the Vreeland affair of July 2001.

It was only a matter of trying to inform those who might be in a position to do anything about it, yet none of us who did so were at all surprised that our efforts produced zero results. We already knew of Mueller's connection to the missing evidence from the OKC bombing. We already knew.

So for you to even imply that Kean 'wasn't good enough' for us, is an absurd non-sequitur. He never was. He still isn't, yet his admission from weakness and failure in high office sworn to uphold the Constitution that "public testimony by FAA and NORAD officials advanced an account of 9/11 that was untrue." is a bald statement of inescapable fact - something you 9/11 deniers never seem to grasp. F A C T.

------------

Wikipedia:-

Cutting and pasting your own heavily edited wiki-nonsense just doesn't cut it out in the real world, sorry. It is absolutely useless when coming up against fact and common sense. The very fact you even dare mention DSM-IV demonstrates clearly that you are not a force for good (hint: MK-ULTRA)

Please go and deal with your MONGOs, your MORT's and all the other shadowy Orwellian revisionists now busy destroying the latest in Alexandrian libraries.

Your diversion posted here is merely that. It addresses NOT ONE single historical FACT, does it?

One difference between the white Left on 911 and the truthers is that truthers care about the evidence. The white Left essentially accepts the version of events put out by the capitalist exploiters in politics and the media and are largely ignorant of facts and evidence around 911.

Robert Mueller, head of the FBI of the time of the attacks, stated that there was no paper trial in Afghanistan leading to Bin Laden to 911, while the US Justice Department does not cite Bin Laden as responsible for 911 because they don’t have the evidence. Nearly six years after the event, no one has been brought to trial for direct involvement in the 911 attacks. The reality is that the evidence of an extremist Muslim 911 conspiracy is circumstantial.

I am unclear what evidence the white Left has that leads them to be certain that Bin Laden was responsible for 911.

Ho questions the reliability of statements made by a truther:
4) Over 1 hour later, North Tower collapses in only a quarter of the time to be expected if there was ANY resistance - note how the floors above the collision point 'collapse' upon themselves TOP FIRST and after the mast.

5) NASA+firefighters record hot spots up to 1500F under WTC1,2 & 7 but NIST ignores this data.

The idea that either statement is incorrect is absurd to anyone who is familiar with facts around 911. Ho, doesn’t know this.

Point 4 is significant. The plane crashed into and around floor 78 of the North Tower. Video of the collapse shows the top of the North Tower collapsing before floor 78. Yet, the official theory argues that the building collapsed because of weakened structures around floor 78.

Again people like Ho are ignorant of other evidence. An analysis of the flight data recorder of the Pentagon plane that remains unchallenged by US authorities shows that the plane could not have hit the building and was not on the same flight path to have knocked over the streetlights we are told the plane knocked over. Faced with this, the white Left just ignores it.

Only a white person would bandy about the term “racist” and insist that it is a disgrace to call the white Left “racist”. Black people have a far more sophisticated understanding of racism, borne from having to put up with it.

The reality is that those Muslims who dismiss the official explanation also care more about the evidence than the white Left. Nonetheless, the white left has no interest in any evidence that gives credence to why it is that more and more Muslims inside and outside the UK are coming to the conclusion that the likes of Bin Laden are Western agents.

While the white Left are happy to damn 911 truthers as “conspiraloons”, they wouldn’t say that about large numbers of Muslims. Why? Because they realise they don’t in fact have the evidence to be certain of this and on that basis people might think they are “racist”.

Of course, the white Left should be more careful when they run around calling people “conspiraloons”. I’m not sure what Marxism is if it is not one big conspiracy theory. I’m not saying Marxism doesn’t have any validity but most working-class people take horoscopes more seriously than Marxism.

arguing with these conspiracy nutters is like arguing with fundamental christians or muslims, its pointless because theyve got all this shite in their heads and whatever rational evidence or suggestions you give them they're just gonna hit back at you. religious types would call you satanic, these fuckers say your in the pay of the state. when people get brainwashed like these sad individuals have then theres nothing to say to them, theyve got theyre dogma, they've got theyre pathetic, pseudo scientific little theories and that gives them the authority and experience to badmouth and put down ordinary, decent working people and activists who are actually trying to fight for a better world. not for a world full of boggle eyed, bullshit spouting, middle class idiotic pratts like these delusional, arrogant asswipes want. aye stop the war, but also stop the cult like groups who jump on the bandwagon and try to use the suffering of iraqis to highlight theyre stupid fucking message.

Man, you sure sound ground down.

and there wuz me thinking all anarchists could think for themselves?

One-a more-a time-a:-

"public testimony by FAA and NORAD officials advanced an account of 9/11 that was untrue." is a bald statement of inescapable fact - something you 9/11 deniers never seem to grasp.

F A C T.

and not only fact - it's the very seat of YOUR obvious misery!

---

"They must find it difficult
Those who have taken authority as the truth,
Rather than truth as the authority"
G.Massey

The evidence is there. It leads back to PNAC, the NWO, etc. The evidence trail that world events and public perception of them have been firmly under the control of secret organizations leads right back to ancient Middle Eastern tribes and those organisations are still operating today: the Masons, The Illuminati etc.

You may think that these smoking guns are absurd. We see it as the total arrogance of a regime that knows it can get away with literally anything. Or so it thinks.

Both sides of the synthetic mainstream construct are just dupes, stooges and drones who can't see that the wars and ideologies they accept/reject are just total bullshit cooked up for them by their masters. Looking to reform the crises and terrors they create is simply treating the symptoms rather than curing the disease.

9/11 Truth goes through the chest and right to the heart of the problem. Anything less is mere denial.

is simply treating the symptoms"

Now if only we taught that in middle education!

The crux of the matter, so succinctly put.

There's some excellent commentary here. The true events of 9/11 seem to be peeling off the programming quite effectively now.

your gonna look back on yourselves in 10 years time and think 'what a fucking tit i was'. evidence? there was 'evidence' to say that the holocaust never happened, there was 'evidence' to say that the world is flat, there was 'evidence' to say that black people are genetically inferior to whites, but of course thats bullshit cause only a few loonys believe in that shite....oh wait, i'm seeing some similarities. Get out from behind your computers, stop cracking one off over the 9/11 footage and i'll seeya on the streets. us people with half a fucking brain will keeping fightingt the bnp, the nf, the yuppie housing developers who want to knock down our houses, the bosses who try to fuck us over and you can keep prattling on about holograms, controlled demolition and a load of other shite which doesnt make a bit of difference in any ones fucking lives. 9/11 happened, was it terrorists, the u.s government or bloody space aliens? i couldnt give a fuck cause the capitalist machine would have continued to carry on and oppress even if it hadnt. Goodnight pillocks, and have fun making yourselves and the entire left wing movement look like idiots.

When JFK was killed it was attributed to a lone gunman who was then conveniently killed by Ruby, a mobster with very dodgy connections with the government. Many people smelled a rat, and were ridiculed (the equivalent of the modern-day favourite \\\'conspiraloon\\\', I guess). It now appears that, from a deathbed confession which, by most American legal statutes is considered sworn testimony, that actually the CIA *was* behind JFK\\\'s assassination.

Conspiraloons indeed!

Anarchist, such that you may be, suspend your disbelief for a brief moment: consider this - you (hopefully!) know full well that the world has been recast as a raw resource material for transnational corporations which, with megabucks galore, seduce governmental agencies to promote particular courses of action, born of policies and forecasts and vision statements that have as little to do with the on-the-ground implementation of the grand schema as shit does to the food consumed earlier. Unlike shit however, the neo-liberal macro-economic program lacks any nutrient value, except of course if one is \\\"connected\\\" into the upper tiers of the socio-economic stratification, as per a coupling to the same feed-pipe, the same capacity for distancing oneself from the location of one\\\'s faeces. This arrangement can surely not be news to you.

Now connect the amazingly simple concept of fear. Fear is a great trigger. It is used by corporations all of the time in their advertising campaigns. Tweaking that fear of not being good (i.e. rich, cool, cute, fit, buff, trendy, geeky, mellow, etc.) enough, that fear of not fitting in, that fear of being wrong, out of place, not belonging, etc. The UK government uses that ploy too: the index of \\\"fear of crime\\\" has been used countless times over to justify ever more repressive tactics of social lock-down and mass criminalisation by the Home Office (Justice? Security? What do they call it now?) and its policy wonks masturbating to dreams of an idealised \\\"social coherence\\\".

Didn\\\'t 911 just put the fear of Allah into everyone connected with the western bastion of economic liberalism and globalisation? However, didn\\\'t it just open up a lot of doors without having to fool around for keys first? Didn\\\'t it equate to the international diplomatic equivalent of a \\\"zipperless fuck\\\" (Erica Jong)? A perfect chance to assume the moral highground, to steadfastly kick open the doors of one small, defenceless sovereign nation, and storm the former employees of the CIA and MI5? Convenient wasn\\\'t it, 911 ... for global economics without all of that tedious human and environmental rights considerations, those dumbassed rituals of respecting them Ah-rabs when all we want is their fuckin\\\' oil! Isn\\\'t fear a wonderful thing? Isn\\\'t fear such a great way of triggering herd-like behaviour among the crowds? Isn\\\'t fear a great trick to pull to open doors that would ordinarily be shut, to allow us to profit handsomely, and free the world for commerce and \\\"economic development\\\".

\\\"Anarchsit\\\", don\\\'t you think that the schedule of events and the subsequent responses of governments (who share in the G8, et al., neo-liberal financial pot) around 911, the clearly influential PNAC strategy \\\"Rebuilding America\\\'s defenses\\\" with its infamous \\\"a new Pearl Harbour\\\" reference, the paranoid closure of the American government around the evidence associated with a clearly demarcated crime scene - a crime large enough to trigger the Iraq invasion, but small enough to allow to have all crime scene protocol violated - and the peculiar circumstances surrounding its disposal, the rapid ramping up of severely restrictive, militaristic and anti-constitutional POs that were signed, the rapid descent of America and the UK into fascist police states with all of the infrastructure intact to close down on dissent to the global economic vision ... after all of this \\\"anarchist\\\", you STILL want me to hear you bleat out that inane fantasy that 911 was an attack by terrorists against America, that America knew nothing about and was powerless to defend itself against this carefully coordinated assault that obliterated two skyscrapers and an unstruck 47 storey-high building, which are three firsts of that phenomenon on the same day in the history of human habitation and architecture, you really expect people to believe this?!? Now, really, where is that conspiracy hiding out, again?

Please don\\\'t be so darn naive about this. Wake up and shake dreams from your hair, as Morrison would\\\'ve said. But perhaps, he was before your time.

The \\\"truthers\\\" are not your enemy, and if you truly are what your monikor suggests, then really man, snap to - the [R]Evolution needs you to shake these foundations, to bring down Babylon.

The planes hit New York City
And thousands now are dead
"It was Arab terrorists"
This is what you said
Well if that is the truth
Then what have you got to hide
And what were you doing
On the day all those people died
Where the fuck were the fighter jets
Ordered by the FAA
And what is your explanation
For what you were heard to say
When you told the Air Force to stand down
Not to intercept
Did you plan to let it happen
Or are you just inept

I am left to wonder
As the flames are reaching higher
Was this our latest Lusitannia
Or another Reichstag Fire

There's some distressing information, sir
Which I think should be explained
Just which things have been lost
And just what has been gained
Like the thousands of put options
Bought days before the crash
If the money were collected
It would make quite a pretty stash
And the only stocks they bought
Were American and United
Deutsche Bank knows the answer
But the names have not been sighted
And is it just coincidence
That this firm in the private sector
Was once run by "Buzzy" Krongard
Ex-CIA Director

There's something fishy in Virginia
And I want an explanation
Why did they get the contract
What is Britannia Aviation
A one-man operation
Corporation with no history
He said he worked in Florida
But there he was a mystery
So is there a connection
I think it bears investigation
When the FAA found boxcutters
Does this cause you consternation
Hidden behind the seats
In these Delta planes
That had been fixed in Lynchburg
With Brittania at the reigns

You said Bin Laden was your friend
But he isn't anymore
Now that he's not fighting Russia
In your proxy war
Who called the FBI
Off the Bin Laden family trail
When so many times you had the chance
To re-write this sordid tale
Sudan in '96
The Taleban in 2001
Offered to turn him over
And right then you coulda won
But perhaps it is the case
That you're avoiding victory
That to justify your exploits
You must have an enemy

If you were not hiding from the truth
Then you'd have a truth commission
And not some masquerade
Kangaroo investigation
Hiring Henry Kissinger
The ancient master of deceit
To make sure all stones are left unturned
And the ruse is kept complete
And now you carry out your plans
Which you have had for decades
Conquering the world
With your troops and bombing raids
I see an evil regime
Led by an evil man
On Pennsylvania Avenue
Where this evil war began

Do you have an mp3 of that anywhere? A video clip even?

---
"Peace is not a thing of weakness
It calls for heroism and action
Day by day you must wrest it from the mouths of liars
You must stand alone against the multitude; for clamor is always on the side of the many and the liar

has ever the first word.
The meek must be strong" - Stefan Zweig - Vienna

---

With a bit of luck, maybe I can round off this thread on your high note... and another poster? ;-)

Big job at  http://tinyurl.com/yt2gwa

It's also freely available for download from too many sites to list.

Where did you leave your self respect
You like look like a reptile
Your house is a wreck
Your existence an insult
And stains that are suspect
Cover your clothes
The standards have fallen
My value has dropped
But don't shed a tear
Some walk like they own the place
Whilst others creep in fear

Wiki baby!

Narcissistic personality disorder?

"a person who shows these criteria only in ONE OR TWO relationships or SITUATIONS would NOT PROPERLY BE DIAGNOSED WITH NPD"

It's there in your own cut and paste!

Here we're dealing with just one "situation" i.e. Comments on Indymedia
and therefore cannot "properly be diagnosed with NPD"

Don't you read and understand what you're posting?

You're trying a bungling "sophisticated" attempt at the "conspiraloon" Fox News response.

So I'll ask you again....

Do you have a rational hypothesis for how it is possible for the Laws of Physics to be violated in the collapse of those buildings?

More shooting the messenger, and you're firing blanks!

And look rather foolish!

A useful idiot!

Peace

Boycott Oil
Truth Out

"Whenever our conspiraloons find their laughable views under attack here or anywhere else they immediately start accusing their critics of working for MI5."

Big Lizard aka MI5 aka the Trident Ploughshares infiltrator.

Really, I know this guy, I know his history here, I know how he posts under different names on the same thread, I know how he threatens pensioners and girls, I know how scared he is of men, I know who employs him and who defends him, what he propagandises about, where he lives, what his IP is, I know when he is online.

I'm not allowed to post any of that info here - and I'm never given a reason why. Maybe I should just give this information to the News of The World - really, I have been considering this since IM is far from independent.

Trident Ploughshares should be regarded by all activists as damaged goods, and I'd be happy to argue that in front of the Peaton Glen Woods paedophile-pimps. Anyone want to hear the inside story of the Prestwick action last year ? Cos there is a trial coming up and although the scum-de-le-scum have already been cleared, maybe the whole group is worth taking down for supporting MI5 and paedo's - no ?

"A website largely ignored by everyone except Britain’s less than impressive anarchists"

So Lizard just signed his own death-warrant here, promptly disappears and reapears under a new pseudonymn. How unusual Slarti, who could have anticipated that ?

Oh well, looks like this is turning into another marathon of Light vs Darkness.

Danny: "I'm not allowed to post any of that info here - and I'm never given a reason why. Maybe I should just give this information to the News of The World - really, I have been considering this since IM is far from independent."

It is the same throughout Indymedia - yet another victim in a long line of victims attempting to bring truth to the notice of mass perception. The worst 'Indy' site of all is my 'local' - New York City, where even a 9/11 mention in passing gets banned within hours - every time. Strangely though, its nearest neighbor, Nu Joisy, has no qualms in posting anything at all about 9/11 - perhaps the Giuliani/Bloomberg sickness has yet to spread to the smaller (and far less attended) Indy sites?

Over the last 6 years I have wasted quite some considerable effort in trying to expose those 'Lizards' who would turn Indy into just another controlled mouthpiece. Only recently I had a run in here with what can only be described as an 'ADL spokesperson' - to which I gave an open response, a small part of it reprinted here :-

"Your response to my poster also confirms to me and my email list that the entirety of Indymedia has been thoroughly infiltrated, degraded and disarmed by people who would rather condone monumental lies (Cheney, Bliar, Bush), massive cheating (eg. Emasculation of UN, Lords Levy, Goldsmith), stealing on a scale never before seen (2.3trillion$ at least, according to Rumsfeld) and wholesale murder (Rockefeller, Cheney, Bliar, Bush), than uphold global justice."

I was only 'allowed' to upload my 'America! Countdown to Dictatorship' poster after removing ALL references to the site that first brought this 'end game by stealth' to light (it sure ain't being covered ANYWHERE in the MSM!).

IP's to News of the World? I don't think so. IP's sent to every blog still resisting the Deceit and Distortion Mob would, IMV, be more far effective as it seems the majority of people still thinking are now online.

Thanks for the link, Danny - I had not come across that excellent poem/rap before.

Truth will prevail because Evil Always Messes Up - hence my coining of the phrase 'Nuremberg Moment' - if we don't deal with this vicious refrain right now, it would seem likely that there will be fat more of an uphill task once America slides into dick-tatorship by stealth 2 weeks from now...

IP addresses are largely irrelevant these days as a means of ID. Almost all ISPs use DHCP and most companies follow suit too- so without being able to hack into the network, pinging an address will tell you almost nothing more than a certain address is live and being used by some person who got that address allocated when the account server authenticated them.

Most providers will have the whole last two blocks of the IP address dynamic and it will often trace back to a DNS that could have a physical user radius of hundreds of miles. The authenticating server may even assign them a totally new address altogether.

Any competent net security person would also not have their users running machines that have live IP addresses that connect directly to the outside world (a hacker's dream) and will instead will be using NAT over another server or a router. (Thus one IP address could account for hundreds of users).

Most investigative government agencies will be running shell accounts away from their own networks or sometimes using open proxies and relays. Which can be switched with great ease. (If they really aren't concerned about getting done for hacking they can abuse trojan victims.)

If the admin was stupid enough to leave such ports openly anonymous, then the chances are they never even changed their router/firewall passwords from default or updated their firmware to block exploits. Which means a "guest" who was skilled in such things could "tidy up" the logs.

...the 'truthers' were in those planes that crashed, might give us all a bit of fucking peace from their constant barrage of brainwashed crap

JEFFERSON,

"Over the last 6 years I have wasted quite some considerable effort in trying to expose those 'Lizards' who would turn Indy into just another controlled mouthpiece."

The vast majority of them are innocent if confused and lacking in evidence, and most of the others are incompetent spies. One easy way for anyone to tell the difference is to watch for the slips, like when Big Lizard berates 911ers for diminishing IM by posting here, yet simultaneously slags off IM. And when they usae the argument 'Why would MI5 watse resources posting here ?- that is laughable. They do (maybe not MI5 but other sympathetic corporaions) , and they do so for fucking obvious and provable reasons - and I imagine they do so worldwide - and they infiltrate to admin level. In this respect IM is no different from the BBC. 7/9 spies assume the cover of journalism, fact. There are more spies than genuine activists and they have to infiltrate somewhere and here is an obvious target. IM really needs a clear out - too many dodgy admins, not enough decent contributors.

The fact MI5 propagandise here against 911 theories doesn't prove any 911 theory. It does indicate that they have something to propagandise about. You can learn a lot about the security services priorities by the crap they spin.


COTTC

While what you say is technically correct, it is factually wrong in one respect. More people have fixed, or long term IP addresses due to cable-broadband than ever before during the dial-up era where you were always assigned a new IP from DHCP.
And since, like every other industry, the tendency is to merge ISPs, there will be fewer and fewer ISPs IP policies to choose from.

CJ

Your post is bland and typical in it's aggressive and offensive content, as can be witnessed from the first response to this article. And yet the anti-911ers here also claim to be victims of smears. Can you reconcile these two facts ? If anti-911ers are victims of smears then why lose the moral high-ground by starting with smears and insults ?

"Extent of DHCP usage

Most home routers and firewalls are configured in the factory to be DHCP servers for a home network. An alternative to a home router is to use a computer as a DHCP server. Releases of Linux usually include a DHCP server and the Internet Software Consortium provides free DHCP servers and clients that run on a variety of Unix-based systems.

ISPs generally use DHCP to assign customers individual IP addresses. Most cable internet providers use DHCP to allocate IP addresses.

In the UK many broad-band ISP networks use DHCP, but xDSL providers make extensive use of "infinite lease", which amounts to assigning semi-static IPs.

In addition, many routers and other gateway devices provide DHCP support for networks running many computers being assigned private IP addresses.

Network administrators that are responsible for large networks involving many clients and many subnetworks also use DHCP to minimize manual configuration and avoid mistakes in configuring multiple clients. For example, most large organizations use DHCP for configuring desktop and laptop computers."


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Host_Configuration_Protocol


Static IPs for home users are mostly optional. Some ISPs even charge a premium for the service. They generally tend to be used by business types who need the additional layer of security to access an Intranet or particular server. Since most home users have no need for a static IP, DHCP is an obvious choice for an ISP to manage addresses and keep the footprint as small as possible- one address per user would extend their ranges way beyond their normal peak load.

None of the big ISPs offer static in their basic packages.

 http://www.dslzoneuk.net/isp_info.php


All of which is pretty useful if someone tries to DoS you. All you do is reboot. Almost always you have a new IP address as the authentication server has already freed up and recycled the one you were using.

Unfortunately, if you are being attacked by a thick script kiddie it'll mean someone else will get the sustained attack instead. Which is why they love DoSing servers so much (static IPs ). The crudest methods are sometimes the most devastating.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MafiaBoy

"Most home routers and firewalls are configured in the factory to be DHCP servers for a home network. "

Which is irrelevant since the IP address of the router identifies the user.

"Most cable internet providers use DHCP to allocate IP addresses."

Do they ? Mine doesn't. The last one I used doesn't. If fact I have never experienced one that does.


Still, it is nice to have an argument about something easily provable and where no insults need to be hurled. Remind me again why we are having this discussion on this thread ?

It seems to me that, so far, no one can say with absolute certainty that 911 was an inside job.

Likewise, no one can say for sure that 911 was NOT an inside job.

So when people say emphatically that 911 was an inside job they do themselves a disservice because they cannot now for sure.

Simularly, when people say emphatically that 911 was NOT an inside job they also do themselves a disservice because they too cannot now for sure.

Therefore the probability is with those who present the most compelling argument. And the official explanation is not at all compelling.

Consequently, I logically have to presume that there may be some truth in the theory that 911 was an inside job.

"Do they ?" Yeah, most of the time and for the majority of users in the market.

"Mine doesn't. The last one I used doesn't. If fact I have never experienced one that does. "

That would be exceptionally unusual for scores of reasons.

"Which is irrelevant since the IP address of the router identifies the user. "

It's actually usually the TCP/IP gateway that determines the Broadcast IP address of devices (which has to be unique and viable). Normally a home router will be assigned an IP address by the ISP using DHCP.

A simple test. Go here check your IP:

 http://whatsmyip.org/

Note the IP

Power down/up your router

Repeat.

Once more to lessen any chance of a freak result.


Normally a home ISP router will only assign a non-broadcast LAN address (which only has to be unique & viable within the LAN and conventionally is 192.168.0.xxx/255.255.255.0) which is used to facilitate (usually) NAT with the Internet gateway via the router (and communication between LAN devices).

It is a whole combination of unique identifiers that would be used to ID a user. Using one of them alone is highly unreliable.

"Remind me again why we are having this discussion on this thread ?"

Because you brought the subject up and I had something useful to add to it.


Here's some further reading if you anyone still awake and still interested:


 http://computer.howstuffworks.com/internet-infrastructure.htm
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_name_system#How_DNS_works_in_theory
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_protocol_suite
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_address_translation

"Because you brought the subject up and I had something useful to add to it."

I brought it up ? Can I put it down again now :-) ?

At the risk of seeming a smart arse or dull geek, I can subnet, supernet and read protocols from hex. I was working with xDSL last century as SysInt&Test. I've 20 years various flavours of Unix and shamefully an MCSE too. I used to work for the company that did Ciscos network management software. I can develop a computer board from concept to product. I can code in C and Pascal and machine code but not so that a coder would approve. I can load balance clusterd groups of servers. I'm not the greatest engineer but I do know ipconfig/a isn't too complex for most people to find their address info. I'll never again get secuirty clearance in the UK so I won't be doing any of that for a living again but seemingly I've not managed to forget it all yet.

"It is a whole combination of unique identifiers that would be used to ID a user. Using one of them alone is highly unreliable. "

Apart from DNA testing the keyboard nothing will identify a user and only a MAC address is unique to a NIC. I could spoof any address I wanted to ape anyway. I can edit my mail headers to appear to be anyone I want. I have no need to though, and the person I am talking about hasn't the technical ability to even read this post so it's not really relevant.

I am sure you were just trying to help someone who seemed technically lacking, which is admirable but unnecessary. There are plenty of activist groups up and down the country who are short of your technical skills, if you aren't already involved then you should consider it. Anyway, what's your opinion about 911 ?

Someone sed:-

"So when people say emphatically that 911 was an inside job they do themselves a disservice because they cannot know for sure. "

to which I can only reply: If we are saying that 9/11 is an Inside Job, do you not think we may have reached that conclusion through deep research and actually reading and corroborating every single piece of evidence there is available?

Do you not think it wise to at least heed such as Kean, a man with more to loose than most, totally revising his own opinion over a 4 year period? Do you not find it strange that, despite the media and White House adherence to their ever-shifting official story, he has made a rather daring effort to inform the public of his revised findings that :-

"[their ever-shifting official story] could not explain why all of the..investigations and public testimony by FAA and NORAD officials advanced an account of 9/11 that was untrue."

??? To believe that the official story is plausible _in_its _entirety_ is to bury one's head in the sand, abandon rational thought, human decency, truth and the Laws of Physics altogether.

www.patriotsquestion911.com
ae911truth.org
pilotsfor911truth.org

Well, the ISP log node ID will also be unique, but not worth mentioning unless you have the skills to Root the ISP, have someone on the inside or a RIP warrant. If you could get a serviceable trojan on to the target machine, you would also have hardware IDs from the processor(s), drives etc.

Anyone adept at successfully using a MAC spoof would probably not be using their own account anyway.

And on the note I'll pack up my dot matrix printouts of BOFH.



"Anyway, what's your opinion about 911 ?"

Something stinks worse than corpse in August. Something is being covered up. The Pentagon and the CIA have a long history of crimes with the named perpetrators, the politicians have many financial ties, the profiteers have pretty much installed their men everywhere in the political structure.

And the US always like to go one up on the Russians (see FSB and their fake Chechens planting bombs in Moscow).

Premeditated Murderers? Incompetent man slaughterers? Greedy morons? We won't know what is being hidden until an investigator gets full access to all areas and with as little redaction as possible.

We'll probably be long dead before that happens, but the official story has a lot of holes even before examining the scene of crime: specific advance warnings from foreign countries, US funds being funneled through the Pakistani ISI. The sheer logistics of the attack indicates they had professional backing. And Osama is still running around.

Some people are very guilty of something highly illegal. As a hunch, I think the CIA, NSA and Pentagon have at the very least decades of funding/perpetrating brutal global terrorism to "hide".

They aren't shy about the fact that they lied about Iraq, about Gitmo, Rendition, Abu Ghraib, Scooter Libby so whatever it is these untouchable people don't want us to know, it's got to be much worse.

Sadly nobody's looking close to nailing Bush for even that stuff that is totally open.

I understand that you believe wholeheartedly that 911 was an inside job and I totally agree that the official explanation is not at all compelling but, for me to formally accept that 911 was in inside job, I need to see the proof. So show us the smoking gun, i.e. the hard evidence which proves beyond all reasonable doubt that 911 was an inside job.

Until you’re able to provide that vital evidence maybe you would do better by saying something like; 911 was almost certainly an inside job.

Hope this helps.

"Reader", only a real investigation can do that. Do you support the calls for a true investigation, which will seek to determine what actually happened, and more importantly, who was responsible?

In the meantime, there is a wealth of evidence pointing to an inside job.

Hope these help:

Stop Belittling the Theories About September 11
by Bill Christison
www.dissidentvoice.org
August 14, 2006






However horrendous the crimes of two of the world’s great liars and terrorists in Gaza and Lebanon, it is imperative that we not let the deeds of Ehud Olmert and George W. Bush distract us from another recent event.

The U.S. alliance with Israel and the power of the lobby that lets Israel so easily influence U.S. foreign policy have been major factors in allowing the monstrous slaughter of innocent civilians in Gaza and Lebanon. What is happening in these lands may also encourage Olmert and Bush to start new hostilities in Syria and heavy, possibly nuclear, bombings in Iran -- and this entire mess of neocon pottage may lead to a new World War and clashes of civilizations and religious fundamentalisms that these two wretched politicians seem quite literally to want to impose on the rest of us. It’s a tough case to make that anything else going on in the world -- anywhere -- could possibly be of equal importance.

But on July 29 and 30, and then again on August 1, something else happened that increasing numbers of people believe is of equal importance. On these dates C-SPAN rebroadcast a panel discussion, held originally in late June, sponsored by an organization called the American Scholars’ Symposium to discuss what really happened on September 11, 2001. Held in Los Angeles, the meeting lasted two days, and the C-SPAN rebroadcast covered one almost two-hour wrap-up session. The meeting was attended by 1,200 people interested in hearing something other than the official story of 9/11. The TV audience was evidently large enough to spur C-SPAN to broadcast the panel discussion five separate times in four days.

Even a month late, this is a lot of airtime for stories that many people call conspiracy theories -- and for which many others use nastier descriptions. It is possible that the head of C-SPAN, Brian Lamb, so strongly disbelieves the conspiracy theories that he felt giving them ample publicity would discredit them further. It is equally possible, however, that Lamb, who seems honestly to believe in presenting various sides of most issues as fairly as he can (although not always giving every side equal time), tried to do exactly that on the many legitimate questions raised about what actually happened on September 11. In any event, C-SPAN has made a major effort to bring information on the principal theories about 9/11 to the mainstream U.S. media. Lamb cannot be blamed for the coincidence that recent heavy military activity in Gaza and Lebanon is nearly drowning out his efforts.

Let’s address the real issues here. Why is it important that we not let the so-called conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 be drowned out? After spending the better part of the last five years treating these theories with utmost skepticism, I have devoted serious time to actually studying them in recent months, and have also carefully watched several videos that are available on the subject. I have come to believe that significant parts of the 9/11 theories are true, and that therefore significant parts of the “official story” put out by the U.S. government and the 9/11 Commission are false. I now think there is persuasive evidence that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe. The items below highlight the major questions surrounding 9/11 but do not constitute a detailed recounting of the evidence available.

ONE: An airliner almost certainly did not hit The Pentagon. Hard physical evidence supports this conclusion; among other things, the hole in the Pentagon was considerably smaller than an airliner would create. The building was thus presumably hit by something smaller, possibly a missile, or a drone or, less possibly, a smaller manned aircraft. Absolutely no information is available on what happened to the original aircraft (American Airlines Flight 77), the crew, the “hijackers,” and the passengers. The “official story,” as it appeared in The 9/11 Commission Report simply says, “At 9:37:46, American Airlines Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon, traveling at approximately 530 miles per hour. All on board, as well as many civilians and military personnel in the building, were killed.” This allows readers to assume that pieces of the aircraft and some bodies of passengers were found in the rubble of the crash, but information so far released by the government does not show that such evidence was in fact found. The story put out by the Pentagon is that the plane and its passengers were incinerated; yet video footage of offices in the Pentagon situated at the edge of the hole clearly shows office furniture undamaged. The size of the hole in the Pentagon wall still remains as valid evidence and so far seems irrefutable.

TWO: The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them. A plane did not hit Building 7 of the Center, which also collapsed. All three were most probably destroyed by controlled demolition charges placed in the buildings before 9/11. A substantial volume of evidence shows that typical residues and byproducts from such demolition charges were present in the three buildings after they collapsed. The quality of the research done on this subject is quite impressive.

If the judgments made on Points ONE and TWO above are correct, they raise many “Who done it” questions and strongly suggest that some unnamed persons or groups either inside or with ties to the government were actively creating a “Pearl Harbor” event, most likely to gain public support for the aggressive foreign policies that followed -- policies that would, first, “transform” the entire Middle East, and second, expand U.S. global domination.

These first two points provide the strongest evidence available that the “official story” of 9/11 is not true. If the government could prove this evidence false, and its own story on these points correct, all the other data and speculation supporting the conspiracy theories would be undermined. It has provided no such proof and no answers to growing questions.

Other, less important points supporting the theories include the following.

THREE: For at least one hour and 45 minutes after the hijacking of the first aircraft was known, U.S. air defense authorities failed to take meaningful action. This strikes some “conspiracy theorists” as valid evidence that the U.S. Air Force was deliberately restrained from acting. Maybe so, but my own skepticism tells me that the inefficiency of U.S. defense forces is likely to be just as plausible an explanation.

FOUR: Some of the theorists believe that the 19 named hijackers were not actually the hijackers. One claim is that the names of the hijackers were not on the manifests of any of the four aircraft.

FIVE: None of the 19 hijackers’ bodies were ever autopsied (since they were allegedly totally destroyed in the crashes, including even the people in the Pennsylvania crash).

SIX: At least five of the alleged hijackers (or persons with identical names) have since turned up alive in the Middle East. Nonetheless, the FBI has never bothered to re-investigate or revise the list of hijackers. Does this suggest that the FBI knows that no one in the administration is interested in reopening any further investigations?

SEVEN: Numerous pilots have allegedly told the theorists that none of the 19 hijackers could have flown the airliners well enough to hit the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon with as much accuracy as was displayed. The debate on this issue simply raises more doubt about the government’s charge that the people it has named as hijackers are the real hijackers.

EIGHT: No one, except possibly government investigators who are not talking, has seen the plane that went down in Pennsylvania. Some of the conspiracy theorists suggest that it was deliberately destroyed before it hit the ground; others suggest that the plane actually landed in Cleveland and that passengers then were whisked away to some unknown destination. What happened to them at that point is simply a large question mark that makes it more difficult to believe this particular scenario.

NINE: Machinations in the U.S. stock market in the days before 9/11 suggest that some inside players in the market knew or suspected that United and American Airlines stock would soon drop. Two of the four of the aircraft involved in 9/11 were, or course, United planes and the other two were American Airlines planes.

It should be reemphasized that these items do not make up a complete list of all the charges made by the theorists, but they are a good sample. Anyone interested in perhaps the best summary of these charges should watch the video “Loose Change.”

To repeat, points ONE and TWO above are the most important. If something other than an airliner actually did hit the Pentagon on 9/11, and if the North and South Towers of the World Trade Center actually were dropped to the ground by controlled demolitions rather than by anything connected to the hijackings, the untrue stories peddled by The 9/11 Commission Report are clearly susceptible of being turned into major political issues.

A Scripps Howard News Service/Ohio University poll taken from July 6 to 24, 2006 concluded that “more than a third [36 percent] of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them, so that the United States could go to war in the Middle East.” The poll also found that “16 percent of Americans speculate that secretly planted explosives, not burning passenger jets, were the real reason the massive twin towers of the World Trade Center collapsed.”

A poll done by the Zogby polling organization two months earlier, between May 12 and 16, 2006, and using questions worded somewhat differently, suggested even more strongly that the issue could become a “big one” if aggressively publicized. This poll concluded that 42 percent of Americans believed there had indeed been a cover-up of the true events of 9/11, and an additional 10 percent of Americans were “unsure.” The co-author of the poll, W. David Kubiak, stated that, “despite years of relentless media promotion, whitewash, and 9/11 Commission propaganda, the official 9/11 story still can’t even muster 50 percent popular support.”

Whichever of these polls is closer to the truth, it would seem that there is considerable support for making a major political issue of the subject.

This should be worked on at two different levels. At the first level, the objective should be long-term, centered on making a maximum effort to find out who the individuals and groups are that carried out the attacks in New York and Washington. Then, these people should be tried in an international court and, if possible, convicted and punished for causing so many deaths. Such a trial, accompanied by actual change in U.S. policies, would show that some people on this globe are at least trying to move closer to more just and decent behavior in human relationships around the world.

At the second level, the short term, the task should be to immediately set to work as hard as is humanly possible to defeat in this year’s congressional election any candidate who refuses to support a no-holds-barred investigation of 9/11 by the Congress or a high-level international court. No more evidence than is now available is needed in order to begin this process.

A manageable volume of carefully collected and analyzed evidence is already at hand on both items ONE and TWO above. Such evidence should be used right now to buttress charges that elements within the Bush administration, as well as possibly other groups foreign or domestic, were involved in a massive fraud against the American people, a fraud that has led to many thousands of deaths.

This charge of fraud, if proven, involves a much greater crime against the American people and people of the world than any other charges of fraud connected to the run-up to the invasion of Iraq in March 2003. It is a charge that we should not sweep under the rug because what is happening in Lebanon, Gaza, Iraq, Syria, and Iran seems more pressing and overwhelming. It is a charge that is more important because it is related to all of the areas just mentioned -- after all, the events of 9/11 have been used by the administration to justify every single aspect of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East since September 11. It is a charge that is more important also because it affects the very core of our entire political system. If proven, it is a conspiracy, so far successful, not only against the people of the United States, but against the entire world. Finally, it is a charge too important to ignore simply because the U.S. government refuses to discuss it. We must force the Bush administration to discuss it.

Discussions aggressively pushed day after day about what really happened on 9/11 will be one of the most important tasks between now and early November. Such discussions can, one hopes, provide progressives with a way to jolt voters out of their apathy and inchoate willingness to support the status quo that they think gives them security -- and encourage more voters to stop supporting Bush, the Republicans, and the wobbly Democratic politicians who might as well be Republicans. A major issue like this, already supported by many voters, may prove particularly important in a congressional election year when new uncertainties in the Middle East, new possibilities of terrorism against the U.S. in retaliation for recent large-scale acts of Israeli/U.S. terrorism in Gaza and Lebanon, and the corrupt almost-single-party U.S. political system combine to make it more likely that supporters of Bush will retain their majority this November.

In terms of electoral impact, it would not matter whether heavy publicity did in fact force the administration to accept a new high-level investigation of the 9/11 events. Initially, the principal goal would be to contribute heavily to the defeat of both Republicans and Democrats who refuse to support wholeheartedly a major new investigation by Congress or an international court. This might result in the defeat of more Republicans than Democrats in November, but ultimately the hoped-for goal should be the end of a system in which Democrats are barely different from Republicans, along with cutbacks in the political power of wealth and the foreign and domestic lobbies paid for by wealth. These are the dominant features of our system today that have practically eliminated meaningful democracy in the U.S. This failure of democracy has happened before in U.S. history, but this time it is likely to last longer -- at least until U.S. policies begin to pay as much attention to the needs of the world as they do to selfish or thoughtless needs of the U.S. and of its military-industrial complex. Attacks on the criminal events surrounding 9/11 might speed this process.

Virtually no members of Congress, Democratic or Republican, will relish calling for a further investigation of 9/11. For right now, in addition to other motives, the issue should be used to go after those political prostitutes among elected office-holders who should also be defeated because they are so easily seduced by money and power to vote for immoral wars against weak enemies.

At the Los Angeles meeting of the American Scholars’ Symposium, one of the main speakers, Webster Tarpley, summarized his own views on the events of 9/11. He emphasized that “neocon fascist madmen” had perpetrated the 9/11 “myth.” He went on to say, “The most important thing is that the 9/11 myth is the premise and the root of the Afghanistan War and the Iraq War and the coming attack on Iran. ... We must ... deprive [the myth’s perpetrators] of the ability to stampede and manipulate hundreds of millions of people [with their] ... cynically planned terrorist events.”

Let’s give Webster Tarpley and other mistakenly labeled conspiracists who have labored in the wilderness for so long three cheers.

Bill Christison is a former senior official of the CIA. He was a National Intelligence Officer and the Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis before his retirement in 1979.

 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Aug06/Christison14.htm

 http://www.patriotsquestion911.com

 http://www.911truth.org

I quite agree that presenting half a case as a watertight is very damaging, as is the presumption of guilt. Nobody would like to be deemed guilty without due process and the rule of law. So why adopt the moral low ground?

The truth is that there has been very little proper independent research carried out and much of that has had little access to the kind of evidence needed for proper forensic procedures. And the best you can hope to do in such a scenario is hit a lot of dead ends and raise even more questions. Which in itself is valid but frustrating.

The absolute worst thing you could do is plug these gaps and answer these questions with wild speculation. It turns the whole thing into a source of ridicule. It acts as a magnet to people with dubious agendas which further attacks the credibility of investigation. and worst of all the wild speculation problem leaves the whole thing wide open to manipulation by the very people who fear investigation. Which we have already seen happening with Climate Change.

I would almost be willing to bet money that no real judicial investigation will ever happen and it will be a matter for historians somewhere down the line to piece together declassified documents as they eventually float to the surface.

I have a hunch that the scene of crime will never yield any great revelations of any inside job. If there is evidence, the most damning will be testimony of unminuted meetings of a small group of people. The next best will be to tie in the flow of funds to key decision makers in possession of foreknowledge of an impending attack again tied into directives that facilitated the attack. Without all of that, the best you'll have is proof of negligence.

If they did the job properly there will be nothing suspicious to be found at the scene of crime.

The best thing Truth could do is concentrate on the areas that the Commission had problems of access to evidence with and keep demanding answers to those questions.

Keep QUESTIONing the official story; stay away from the dubious theories.

It should be that the Left, who use this website, to ask of 911 truthers and those who more or less accept the official view where's the evidence. What should not happen is a barrage of critical analysis of 911 truthers based on "conspiraloon".

The question then is: what evidence needs to be presented to satisfy the argument that the Government did it based not on beyond reasonable doubt but rather on the balance of evidence. Most of the evidence available is circumstantial. But there is now some harder evidence.

Firstly, examination of the remains of the Twin Towers show that thermite explosives were used. This conclusion needs to be reaffirmed by other investigators.

Secondly, US pilots who challenge the official theory have analysed the flight data recorder of the Pentagon's plane and concluded that the plane could not be the flying object that did hit the Pentagon. This analysis has not been refuted by US authorities despite the pilots approaching them to do so.

So, what evidence is needed?

There needs to be more interogation of the Left position on 911 because I don't think it makes sense and also requires the sort of conspiracy thinking they love to attack.

They say that:

1. Bush let 911 happen to go to war but bin Laden was blowback and anti-imperialist
2. The US defence forces and intelligence agencies were incompent, Bush is lying about a religious motivation for 911 and bin Laden was blowback and anti-imperialist
3. 911 doesn't matter, it's capitalism that matters.

3. is just silly. Most of the US and UK working-class would regard that idea as "totally bonkers" let alone the working-class in the Middle East.

1. Involves a conspiracy on Bush's part.
2. Involves a number of conspiracies. There is one to protect the US Air Force and FAA that were incompetent: only a handful of CIA agents, plus two senior ones, have lost their jobs because of this incompetence. And of course, bin Laden is part of the second stage of the conspiracy because he goes on about religion and not politics.

More critique of the Left explanation of 911 is required.

Courtesy of Cryptome:

 http://www.infiltrated.net/cipav.pimp

Known NSA IP ranges:

 http://cryptome.org/nsa-ip-update3.htm

I am reading John Pilger\\\'s \\\"Freedom next time\\\" and came across a quote that I thought phrased this debate in an interesting light, and wanted to share this here.

In an interview with Ray McGovern (former top-ranking CIA official, writing Bush snr\\\'s daily intelligence brief), speaking about the PNAC (nicknamed \\\"the crazies\\\" in intelligence and security circles, apparently), Pilger asks:

JP: \\\"The cliche is that September 11 changed everything? Is that your view?\\\"
RM: \\\"No, but it was an incredible boost to what the crazies wanted to do. Our response should have been a police action. Instead, the crazies played on the fears of the population, introducing distasteful elements with a vengeance, so at least as many people perished in the attack on Afghanistan as on 9/11. Everything that followed was PR, public relations, black propaganda. This administration has shown itself to be incredibly adept at this. Look at the way they connected Saddam Hussein with al_Qaida, a monumental task under normal circumstances, because there was no connection; September 11 allowed them to achieve that.\\\"
JP: \\\"Is there evidence that a great deal of this was planned before September 11?\\\"
RM: \\\"Yes, there is, in documents I have seen. Some of them actually say that what they are doing is a long-term process, a strategic plan, and there could be intervening events which would be great blessings and would accelerate the implementation of their plans; 9/11 was exactly that kind of event. Now I\\\'m not a conspiracy type of person so I shy away from a lot of the conspiracy theories that are going around.\\\"
JP: \\\"Having spent a lot of your life in the CIA, you must have a respect for conspiracy?\\\"
RM: \\\"I do indeed. If you look back to the assassination of President Kennedy and Martin Luther King, you need to respect the conspiracy element. I have read persuasive evidence that this Bush administration knew chapter and verse as to what was happening on September 11 and allowed it to happen. I take the charitable interpretation that is was gross incompetence.\\\"
JP: \\\"Is the war on terror a fraud?\\\"
RM: \\\"I think fraudulent is not too strong a word. Being at war enables us to not only throw our weight around abroad but to clamp down very tightly on those who would dissent and to paint them as unpatriotic. That\\\'s what has happened.\\\"

(Pilger, 2006 :pp. 407-408)

After further discussion, Pilger\\\'s report ends, quoting McGovern: \\\"Our concern [...] is that this is only the beginning: that we have already lost control.\\\" (Pilger, 2006 :p. 410)

I was thinking of posting some brief analysis, but on reflection think that the words stand quite explicitly on their own.

To be a little bolshy about this however, I must confess to being swayed more by Ray McGovern\\\'s and Pilger\\\'s credentials when they note respect for conspiracy theories than by Big Lizard and others of that ilk who try to demolish those same theories with the throw-away ad hominem \\\"conspiraloon\\\". Perhaps its just me.

John Pilger (2006), \\\"Freedom next time\\\", London: Transworld Publishers.