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Bloggers vs. The Lobby

American Conservative | 14.03.2007 23:38 | Repression | World

This article explains quite eloquently why a Zionist Plant, and member of "IMC-Watch" (amongst other Hate Sites) feels compelled to monitor the site.

The Independent Media has all but decimated the carefully-crafted media veil keeping the reality of the Zionist war to wipe Palestine off the map from the general public.

March 12, 2007 Issue
Copyright © 2007 The American Conservative

Bloggers vs. the Lobby

Israel’s propaganda fortress faces a surprising new challenge.

by Scott McConnell

Despite the failure in Iraq, the repudiation of the president’s foreign policy in opinion polls and the 2006 elections, and the collapse of respect for the U.S. in most other countries, support for the Bush Doctrine of preventive war remains surprisingly intact among one important slice of Americans: the presidential candidates of both major parties. New York Times columnist David Brooks recently lamented that Democratic contenders were sounding soft, crafting their foreign-policy positions to generate “applause lines in Iowa.” He needn’t have worried. The parade of White House aspirants to appear before a hawkish Israeli audience in Herzliya, and an equally hawkish AIPAC crowd in New York, is a truer gauge of where leading candidates stand.

On New Year’s Day, Israeli superhawk Benjamin Netanyahu called for an “intense international public relations front” to persuade Americans of the need for military confrontation with Iran. The sight of John Edwards addressing a conference in Israel by satellite feed, along with John McCain, Rudy Giuliani, Newt Gingrich, and Mitt Romney—the latter two actually flew in to speak in person—indicated that the front already exists. All the candidates spoke as if preemptive war in the Middle East was a tried and true success. As a correspondent from Jewish Week summed it up, the U.S. presidential hopefuls were “competing to see who can be most strident in defense of the Jewish state.” The consensus choice for the competition’s winner was Romney, but the putatively liberal Edwards, who described preventing Iran from securing nuclear weapons as “the greatest challenge of our generation,” made a surprisingly strong showing. No leading presidential contender suggested that attacking Iran might be a bad idea.

This hawkishness is actually an outlier sentiment, popular only among those running for office. In Washington, it’s difficult to find a foreign-policy expert who thinks that any good would come of a strike on Iran. Even the neocons have their doubts. The Iraq War, miserable concept that it was, had far more respected backers.

American military options are poor. Surgical air strikes wouldn’t do anything decisive to Iran’s nuclear program, but they would create huge problems for Americans in Iraq and perhaps lead to a two or threefold rise in the price of oil. The U.S. lacks the troops to enforce regime change through a land invasion and has already demonstrated its inability to successfully occupy a Muslim country one-third Iran’s size. Furthermore, Iran, according to U.S. intelligence estimates, is ten years away from a nuclear weapon. Its seemingly nutty current president is losing support in the country. Those most theologically opposed to the Shia Islam that Tehran espouses are the very al-Qaeda Sunnis who set this dreadful train of events in motion in the first place.

So why do leading politicians line up for “The Bush Doctrine: Take Two”? On the Republican side, it might be explained by a desire to cater to elements of the Christian Right that believe a final showdown with Islam is called for on religious grounds, or to talk-radio listeners who want to nuke the “Islamofascists” because that’s what weapons are made for. Such groups form part of the GOP base. But what of Edwards, what of Hillary Clinton—both eager to be on the record for keeping all options on the table? It’s a question that cannot be truthfully answered without reference to the neuralgic subject of the Israel lobby.

It is a tough issue to address, as Gen. Wesley Clark, a middle-of-the-pack Democratic presidential contender in 2004, recently discovered. Upon reading an Arnaud de Borchgrave column that discussed a then incipient Israeli campaign to pressure Hillary Clinton and other Democrats to “publicly support immediate action by Bush against Iran,” he lost his cool, saying to Arianna Huffington, “How can you talk about bombing a country when you won’t even talk to them? It’s outrageous. We’re the United States of America; we don’t do that.” Pressed by Huffington to explain why he was sure Bush would attack Iran, he answered, “You just have to read what’s in the Israeli press. The Jewish community is divided but there is so much pressure being channeled from the New York money people to the office seekers.”

This was an awkward way to put it; the euphemism surely sounded more contentious than anything Clark might have said straightforwardly. And of course some people chose to ignore Clark’s correct assertion that the Jewish community was very divided on the Iran issue. Within days, the general was in caught in a familiar crossfire, smeared as an instigator of anti-Semitism by some Republican Jewish organizations, his remarks headlined as “Protocols of the New York Money People” by a Wall Street Journal columnist. Soon he was engaged in a humiliating apology and repentance ritual with Abe Foxman of the ADL.

At this point the story could have taken the same path it has virtually every time something similar has happened since 1970—the originator of the “anti-Semitic” gaffe apologizes, some taint remains attached to his name, and everyone is reminded once again of the perils of crossing swords with “the lobby.”

But things took a different course, for significant reasons. It hasn’t yet been established that the blogosphere has changed the nature of American politics in any fundamental way. Obviously it can quickly focus a great deal of attention on something—Trent Lott’s seemingly appreciative remarks on Strom Thurmond’s racial views of 60 years ago, for example—that might have gone completely unnoticed, thus turning Washington into even more of a fishbowl. And some minor lesson can probably be learned from John Edwards’s awkward effort to hire “edgy” left-wing bloggers, with all the unedited vulgarities they bring with them. But blogs may foment serious debate about difficult subjects and change the climate of opinion in meaningful ways. In the aftermath of Herzliya and the Clark episode, it seemed as if this was actually happening.

For within a day or two, one could read in the blogs some surprising assertions that amounted to a truth defense of Wes Clark. It seemed to come primarily from young, or comparatively young, Jewish bloggers. Observations that had been bandied about for years in private seemed to burst forth where many people could see them. This was welcome and suggests a broadening and deepening of the peace movement that so notably failed to stop the Iraq War. Suddenly there were Jewish voices talking about the Israel lobby as an established fact and, to be frank, as a bit of a problem. Significantly, these were not voices from an older and more alienated Chomskyian Left but from an American Prospect-like liberal mainstream.

In early February, Glenn Greenwald, a New York attorney who recently published a book on the Patriot Act, wrote a blog entry that focused on the New York AIPAC gathering attended by both John Edwards and Hillary Clinton. Greenwald quoted an article from the New York Sun—there is no more unimpeachably right-wing Zionist source—that featured Democratic political consultant Hank Sheinkopf’s claim that “New York is the ATM for American politicians. Large amounts of money come from the Jewish community. If … you want dollars from that group, you need to show that you’re interested in the issue that matters most to them.” The issue that matters most, the article went on to say, is Israel, and what this group most wants to hear with regard to Israel is commitment to bellicosity toward Iran. Edwards and Mrs. Clinton did their best to comply, though according to a report in the equally Likud-friendly New York Post, Clinton apparently disappointed some in attendance by suggesting that diplomacy might be attempted before war. “This is the wrong crowd to do that with,” commented one attendee.

Greenwald went on to point out that these articles made exactly the same point that Clark made, adding, “It is simply true that there are large and extremely influential Jewish donor groups which are agitating for a U.S. war against Iran, and that is the case because those groups are devoted to promoting Israel’s interests and they perceive it to be in Israel’s interests for the U.S. to militarily confront Iran.”

Greenwald’s post was not the only one. Matthew Yglesias, a young writer with a blog and similar political orientation, also addressed the Clark issue, noting that while Jewish opinion was divided on Iran, “Everything Clark said, in short, is true. What’s more, everyone knows it’s true.” Yglesias pointed out that it is seemingly permissible to refer to the financial clout Jews wield in the Democratic Party if one is being supportive of America’s self-proclaimed “pro-Israel” forces, but if you’re critical of this influence, you’re denounced as an anti-Semite.

Ezra Klein, another young blogger, also referred to the Clark episode, and his post addressed the question that underlies the entire issue: the vulnerability of Israel to Iranian nuclear weapons. Did not the concentration of Jews in a small state surrounded by hostile neighbors raise questions about the usefulness of the Zionist enterprise in general, since the whole point was to make Jews more rather than less secure?

Of course any sensible person recognizes that an Iranian nuclear weapon would raise serious strategic concerns for Israel, likely forcing it into the deterrent posture of mutual assured destruction that the United States had to endure during much of the Cold War. Addressing these dilemmas, one (regrettably anonymous) commenter on Klein’s blog wrote:

I’d suggest a second conclusion: Make friends with the neighbors. We’ve got a long history of doing it. Only this time it would be from a position of strength, which is ultimately the purpose of the State of Israel. Yes, there are deep rooted, generational hostilities at play. But we Jews excel at all sorts of things that make life better for people: the practice of medicine and law, scientific research, and yes, commerce. If there were a real commitment, not just to peace, but to regional prosperity, it would happen.

However “unrealistic” this vision might seem in the near term, it deserves to be quoted at length. Its noble vision stands alone against the tremendously well-funded propaganda edifice of the Israel lobby, from AIPAC and the Anti-Defamation League to the American Jewish Committee and multiple other groups, whose dank worldview reaches deep into the conservative think tanks and the upper echelons of the Bush administration. The AIPAC sensibility is expressed in cruder form by right-wing talk-radio hosts who every day try to soften up their listeners to the idea of American nuclear strikes against Muslim cities.

But this hopeless view of the world, however much it is amplified by today’s Jewish establishment, is not the only perspective of American Jews. Indeed it is not even the majority view. A poll by the American Jewish Committee revealed that support among Jews for a military strike against Iran had dropped from 49 percent last year to 38 percent at present.

One could argue that the dovish sentiment expressed by the commenter on the Klein blog is not only more grounded in history, human nature, and the particular Jewish experience than the one we hear from the American Jewish establishment before which Clinton, Edwards, Romney, and Giuliani kowtow. Is it really practical to think that Israel’s long-term security needs can be satisfied by having the United States smash the country’s potential enemies as they arise, again and again?

The blogosphere is playing a role in bringing to the fore these kinds of dissenting views—though they may be majority views—letting them circulate and evolve under the test of critical argument. But even without the blogs, there have been signs that the lobby’s edifice is cracking. How else can one interpret the amazing document published by the American Jewish Committee last month, which accused several prominent American Jews of “anti-Semitism” because of their criticisms of current Israeli policies? It is one thing to claim that Christians who criticize Israel or the American relationship to Israel are motivated by anti-Semitism; this has long been a standard rhetorical tactic. But to wield that word against Jews—several of them very prominent in journalism, culture and academia—seemed so silly as to be a symptom of something like panic, as if the traditional big powers feel the debate about Israel and American foreign policy is veering out of their control.

Perhaps the AJC’s targets really weren’t only Professor Tony Judt or playwright Tony Kushner, or even the Washington Post’s Richard Cohen, the latter hardly a strident critic of Israel. As Yglesias bluntly explained it, “the idea, basically, is to scare the goyim who figure that while liberal Jews can take the heat, they probably can’t, and had best just avoid talking about the whole thing.”

Yglesias is on to something important here, though the situation is more complicated than he described. Both Jews and gentiles have been raising the volume of discussion about the American-Israeli relationship and Israeli policies. On the Jewish side, there is a profusion of important peace-oriented websites. The explosion of interest in the Walt-Mearsheimer essay and Jimmy Carter’s book evince a Christian awakening of the Mideast’s critical importance. The perilous present geopolitical context explains this: a great many people wouldn’t risk the opprobrium of the lobby for the sake of the Palestinians, who often wage their struggle far less impressively than one might wish. But letting the lobby influence American foreign policy toward Iraq raises the stakes mightily. Allowing Bibi Netanyahu and his American allies to call the tune of U.S. policy toward Iran is far too much to bear.

But it’s true that many Christians won’t enter this battle without Jewish allies or at least will join it with less enthusiasm. It’s not simply that they can’t take the heat. It’s that those who have spent much time in journalism or academia or trying to influence public policy have generally done so alongside Jews and are accustomed to having Jews play significant roles in their personal and professional lives. To fight a battle without Jewish colleagues, or even against Jewish colleagues, is likely to feel rather lonely. This is no doubt less true for hardcore Christian Zionists—curiously the most aggressively Likudnik of all segments of Christian opinion—than it is for other gentiles. But it is this sentiment that makes the new effervescence of Jewish dissent so important for the country at the present moment. It opens a door for Christians to voice opinions they might otherwise keep to themselves—not for fear of what Abe Foxman might say about them, but out of discomfort of being isolated from the urban, “cosmopolitan,” Jewish-influenced milieu of which they have long been part.

It may be beyond the American people’s power to stop George W. Bush from launching another preventive war. But even though the president and his top advisers can isolate themselves from currents of public opinion, that is less the case for top military officers. And it is far more likely that they will find ways to raise meaningful speedbumps and roadblocks on the route to an expanded war if there is a large enough public outcry against it. Right now there is not. Indeed, key Democrats and Republicans are maneuvering for applause lines in Herzliya as much as in Iowa. There remains a policy-expert consensus that attacking Iran would be very foolish, but it is hardly loud and far from powerful. It has no political force behind it.

That’s why the truth defense floated on behalf of Wes Clark was important, and that’s why the mockery that has greeted the AJC’s claim that Jews who criticize Israel are “anti-Semites” are such hopeful signs: they offer the possibility of a movement rising that could save the United States from compounding the errors it has already made.

amconmag.com/2007/2007_03_12/article.html

Western Jews Revolt Against Zionist Bully Tactics

If I were the Plant, I'd Spam the site too, in order to keep this from the 'wire. After all, if people find out that most Jews oppose Zionist Extremism, its hijacking and manipulation of Jewish organizations, and its policies in Israel, he won't be able to silence his opposition with Slanderous cries of "antisemite!!" ...
Jews worldwide are finally beginning to revolt against the bully tactics of the Zionists, and their willingness to hijack Jewish organizations for their own political purposes.

This is the result of Zionist "Emergency Cabinets" being placed in control of the most of the formerly Jewish organizations throughout much of the West, creating powerful Zionist Lobbies, instead of organizations acting for the good of the Jewish communities in those countries. These efforts, while exonentially altering Government policies (exposing the effect Lobbyists have on politicians), have alienated and angered Jews throughout the West.

The next phase will be to inform politicians the world over that pandering to this relatively-small number of Extremists will only alienate the "Jewish vote", as most Jews oppose the policies of aggression and instability being pushed by these Zionist organizations.

londonontario.indymedia.org/newswire/display/689/index.php

American Conservative

Comments

Hide the following 24 comments

Ego agogo

15.03.2007 08:30

IMW a "Zionist plant", don't make me laugh. I know many activists that are concerned about how people like you are killing independent journalism with an obviously antisemitic agenda.

If anyone is a plant it's you!

This Zionist mumbojumbo could very plausibly be a smokescreen to discredit serious research into the real warmongers, the actual truth being hidden in the classified 9/11 documents.

The people you constantly spam are systematically denouncing all the prominent anarchist/socialist philosophers as "plants" by their refusal to accept 9/11 Truth and the Grand ZOG conspiracies that eminate from highly-dubious places like Counterpunch, Prisonplanet and Jeff Rense.

The main use of a plant is to infiltrate a group and steer them in a direction tactically advantageous to their paymasters.

Dividing "The Left" and alienating their "opinion leaders" whilst diverting them away from the real questions seems potentially too bad to be coincedence.

Real: questions: What is the Truth in the casus belli for Iraq?; Why has no-one been impeached?; Why are there still reems of documents classified regarding 9/11?; Who bankrolled the 9/11 cell?; What truth is there in the casus belli for Iran?; Why has no-one of upper rank been prosecuted for war crimes in Iraq & Afghanistan? Why is Blair getting away with bullying the SFO regarding BAe systems/Saud?; Who are these "insurgents" in Iraq and what do they want? Why is nothing substantial being done about climate change? etc etc etc

And by spamming this place constantly with claims of Israel, Israel, Mossad, Israel, Zionism, Israel, it makes people who are interested in such questions look stupid by association.

Israel is a truly fucked state, it needs to be reigned in and brought to book for what is has been doing to its neighbours. The US could at any point do this single-handedly. The tail does not wag the dog. Israel is not the epicentre of all worldly woes. It is not dictating global politics. It's a rogue state with a seriously powerful sponsor. So is Saudi, so is Egypt.

Give us all a break from this conspiracy drivel.

Antisemitic conspiracy, irrelevant within a generation


re: Ego agogo

15.03.2007 09:09

"The tail does not wag the dog. Israel is not the epicentre of all worldly woes. It is not dictating global politics. It's a rogue state with a seriously powerful sponsor. So is Saudi, so is Egypt.

Give us all a break from this conspiracy drivel."

Hmmm, so are you denying that Pelosi was booed by Aipac, and that shortly thereafter the Demokrats toned down their measures against war in Iran?

It would clearly be helpful if you could furnish us with similar reports of the pro-Saudi and pro-Egyptian lobbies in the US booing leading demokrats, with an ensuing change in politics by the party.

I would say that Egyptian funding by the US is highly conditional, whilst the state of Israel experiences a lot more freedom to do as it wishes. Is it your claim that Egypt has the same level of freedom as Israel when it comes to using US sponsorship?

elsewhere you made this claim:

"Remeber it is the US bankrolling Israel and not the other way around. Israel has no power of its own."

Are you denying that the pro-Israel lobby contributes to a significate number of election campaign funds in the US? Can you show similar levels of funding by pro-Saudi and pro-Egyptian interests?

HOW BARACK OBAMA LEARNED TO LOVE ISRAEL

gobby


...

15.03.2007 09:55

The Saudis have undoubtedly more influence over the US than any Jewish lobby. The Germans have a fair bit of financial clout too. Egypt doesn't have a pot to piss in and is enjoying the US standing between them and the International Law and Human Rights.

The Jewish Lobby's funds pale into insignificance of the people who truly pull the strings: Bechtel, Halliborton, LockheedMartin, Exxon etc. etc. etc.. US policy may seem dictated by "Zionists" but I think you are only seeing what you want to see.

America doesn't jump just because Israel says so. The US will jump when Israel says so if it's in its OWN interests to do so. Otherwise, the Palestinians would be long-time dead already.

This Jew fixation is highly dubious. As does the posting of right-wing pundits here to back it up. I'd personally be very worried if I had to go to the right to find agreement on this issue.

Israel is a strategic outpost on the geopolitical stage. It doesn't rule the world by proxy.

Assertions that it does being constantly spammed here makes the place look like Stormfront-lite.

Apparently, the Jews started the war against Iraq, the are behind 9/11, 7/7, the insurgency in Iraq, are going to be responsible for any attacks on Iran etc etc etc.

And if you don't agree with that you are a plant. Like Chomsky, Hersh, Michael Moore and George Monbiot.

I'm waiting for the Jew Obsessives to dig up Emma Goldmann and Karl Marx and brand them plants too!

Like I said, the people with the suspicious plantlike agenda are the people who spam this place with "Israel Rules The World!!!" crap.

The other thing that bothers me is just like the European anti-Jew propaganda of the 20s & 30s the assertions of guilt carry implicit action with it.

What action do you suggest should be taken against these "Zionists"? Let me guess: they should be prevented from participating in political discourse? Nest step, they should not be allowed to accumalte the wealth needed to influence politics? Finally, I guess they should be either deported or exterminated... the latter will ensure that they can never be our masters again.

I mean they are "evil people", the charge demands justice surely?

The US organ grinders will be very pleased you are attacking their Israeli monkey.

But like Monbiot said, it's easier to attack a make-believe foe...

Antisemitic conspiracy, irrelevant within a generation


"new anti-semitism"

15.03.2007 10:36

"The Saudis have undoubtedly more influence over the US than any Jewish lobby. The Germans have a fair bit of financial clout too. Egypt doesn't have a pot to piss in and is enjoying the US standing between them and the International Law and Human Rights."

Okay - if you say so. No need to back it up mate - just say it!

"The Jewish Lobby's funds pale into insignificance of the people who truly pull the strings: Bechtel, Halliborton, LockheedMartin, Exxon etc. etc. etc.. US policy may seem dictated by "Zionists" but I think you are only seeing what you want to see."

Firstly - how did the "pro-Israel lobby" suddenly become the "Jewish Lobby"? Secondly, are you suggesting that Bechtel, Halliborton, LockheedMartin, Exxon etc. etc. etc. are in opposition to the pro-Israel lobby?

"America doesn't jump just because Israel says so. The US will jump when Israel says so if it's in its OWN interests to do so. Otherwise, the Palestinians would be long-time dead already."

However Aipac boos and the demokrats jump. And thank you for your claim that Israel is intent on the genocide of all Palestinians. I think its probably quite a contentioius claim, but its not unbelievable.

"This Jew fixation is highly dubious."

Yes, you really should get over it. You're the one who keeps raising it. Most of the rest of us do not believe that the state of Israel is an embodiement of Judaism at all. Many of us think its an embodiement of rabid zionist nationalism

"As does the posting of right-wing pundits here to back it up. I'd personally be very worried if I had to go to the right to find agreement on this issue."

Aah, you're on the left. Thats nice

"Israel is a strategic outpost on the geopolitical stage. It doesn't rule the world by proxy."

No Amerika does that. It also stops the world reigning Israel in. And it also appears to be strongly influenced by the pro-Israel lobby. Ask Obama.

"Assertions that it does being constantly spammed here makes the place look like Stormfront-lite."

Thats your "left wing" side showing itself, me thinks. Your right wing comrades believe it is stormfront heavy.

"Apparently, the Jews started the war against Iraq, the are behind 9/11, 7/7, the insurgency in Iraq, are going to be responsible for any attacks on Iran etc etc etc."

Hurrah - theres your Jew fixation again!

"And if you don't agree with that you are a plant. Like Chomsky, Hersh, Michael Moore and George Monbiot."

Is that the Indymedia line? Or is that the work of a commentator or two. Maybe you're given to conflating minorities with majorities everywhere?

"I'm waiting for the Jew Obsessives to dig up Emma Goldmann and Karl Marx and brand them plants too!"

Yes, don't hold your breath though. You're coming across as a "Jew obsessive" - why don't you dig them up?

"Like I said, the people with the suspicious plantlike agenda are the people who spam this place with "Israel Rules The World!!!" crap. The other thing that bothers me is just like the European anti-Jew propaganda of the 20s & 30s the assertions of guilt carry implicit action with it. What action do you suggest should be taken against these "Zionists"? Let me guess: they should be prevented from participating in political discourse? Nest step, they should not be allowed to accumalte the wealth needed to influence politics? Finally, I guess they should be either deported or exterminated... the latter will ensure that they can never be our masters again. I mean they are "evil people", the charge demands justice surely?"

For a self-proclaimed "left winger" you have a vivid imagination. Personally, I think you're just using the Holocaust in the same way as your right wing comrades. There appear to be no left wing zionists. Neither do I see anyone making such suggestions on Indymedia, only you and your supposedly "right wing" comrades

"The US organ grinders will be very pleased you are attacking their Israeli monkey. But like Monbiot said, it's easier to attack a make-believe foe..."

You're invoking the "new anti-semitism" AND asserting that poor lil old Israel is a weak powerless "monkey" at the same time? And somehow you've come to the conclusion that IMW doesn't have a zionist agenda. It is getting hard to take you seriously now.

gobby


a spot of weeding

15.03.2007 16:54

The significance of the article to me isn't the "bloggers vs the lobby" angle, rather that right-wing US conservatives are trying to take back control of the Republican party from the neo-cons war-mongers, and are reaching out for support from US liberals. The fact that the author is Jewish means he focusses on US Jewish concerns. It should be borne in mind that the US was launching bloody corporate wars long before the neo-con coup d'etat.

I can't see an "obviously antisemitic agenda" in an article that states "But we Jews excel at all sorts of things that make life better for people: the practice of medicine and law, scientific research, and yes, commerce" . Remember your training, when a critic of Israel is Jewish you are meant to revert to the other smear of "self-hating Jew".

You redeemed yourself with a very skillful smear quickly though. "highly-dubious places like Counterpunch, Prisonplanet and Jeff Rense" is masterly "guilt by association and misdirection", especially since the article in question is from American Conservative. Counterpunch is a highly respected newsletter and website which covers a range of issues not widely covered in the US mainstream including the Israeli and Palestinian conflict. The only people who have criticised it as being anti-semitic are neo-conservatives and ultra-zionists - I'm afraid your pay-slip is showing.

"The main use of a plant is to infiltrate a group and steer them in a direction tactically advantageous to their paymasters. "
I'll take your word for that, it's always good to have a tip from a professional. And while you obviously hate Saudi Arabia you should still have the decency to name the country correctly instead of refering to it as Saud or Saudi.

"The Saudis have undoubtedly more influence over the US than any Jewish lobby."
In 1973 Saudi Arabia considered cutting off the oil to the US to end the billion dollar US military airlift of military equipment in the Fourth Arab-Israeli War. The US response was to threaten an immediate US invasion of Saudi Arabia. So that is the measure of the relative influence of the Saudis and Israelis in the US. For someone who claims to be a defender of Chomsky so often, perhaps it is time you actually read him ?

orca


orca

15.03.2007 17:36

The obvious antisemetic agenda I refer is regarding the two people that regularly spam this place with ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL... don't you think that people who think Israel is ruling the planet are somewhat dubious and most likely anti-semtic (at best clinically stupid).

Counterpunch is well-repsected by whom? Jeff Rense and Kurt Nimmo!? It's a thinly guised propaganda outlet owned by someone with ties to Nazis. It published Nimmo who is a holocaust denier. Nimmo endoreses David Irving and Jeff Rense. Jeff Rense supports Ernst Zuendel.

See a pattern yet?

If you think Saudi is scared of the US you must be not very well eductated on its relationship to the states.

After 9/11 the Saudis were given the red carpet out the country. The US never included Saudi in its Axis of Evil despit the vast majority of the US Al Qaeda cell were Saudi; that much funding of the 9/11 attack was Saudi. In fact, the Saudi Security Services telling the CIA to forget any significant cooperation regarding 9/11 is also well-documented.

Saudi is a very wealthy country and of great geopolitical significance. Israel is a beggar state and without the USA it'd have been wiped off the map long ago.

Stop trying to pretend this is journalism and research. It's just racist propaganda.

The Jews don't rule the world. They don't run the US. They don't even run Israel!

And this is coming from someone who'd like to see many Israeli politicians and generals in the Hauge on trial.

Antisemitic conspiracy, irrelevant within a generation


Spies, lies and bare thighs

15.03.2007 18:54

"Counterpunch is well-repsected by whom?"

Robert Fisk, Edward Said, Tim Wise, Ralph Nader, M. Shahid Alam, Ward Churchill, Lila Rajiva, Tanya Reinhart, Frank "Chuck" Spinney, Paul Craig Roberts, William Lind, Lenni Brenner, Fidel Castro, Stew Albert, Diane Christian, Joshua Frank, Norman Finkelstein, Ron Jacobs, Gary Leupp, Cynthia McKinney and David Price. The Village Voice, Harper's, The Nation, the National Journal, the New York Daily News, The Washington Post, The Texas Observer, and several other publications. (source:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CounterPunch_%28newsletter%29)

Like I said, widely-respected, that is quite a mixed bunch. They might not always say what your employers want them to say, but you are going to have to learn and live with that.

"It's a thinly guised propaganda outlet owned by someone with ties to Nazis. It published Nimmo who is a holocaust denier. Nimmo endoreses David Irving and Jeff Rense. Jeff Rense supports Ernst Zuendel. See a pattern yet? "

I see a pattern. I see patterns everywhere, sometimes they carry significance, sometimes they are just pretty patterns. Noam Chomsky supported Ernst Zuendels right to freedom of speech. You claim to support Chomsky. So you support the Nazis too ? No, so what are you complaining about ? I see liars too, manipulators, cheats. I see beyond the end of my nose. I don't "see dead people", partly because I don't live in Palestine or Israel which both suffer from commentary such as yours.

"If you think Saudi is scared of the US you must be not very well eductated on its relationship to the states."
I just proved you wrong with factual evidence, you just insulted me for no apparent reason other than it was your best option. If I'm uneducated then it makes the fact I am using facts and you are resorting to insults even more shameful for you. If you think deliberately misnaming the country after I asked you not to is going to earn you a serious response, then think again. Always good advice, think twice ;-)

"Stop trying to pretend this is journalism and research. It's just racist propaganda. "

Yes, I suppose your posts deliberately misnaming a country, which you are alleging as terrorist state without supporting evidence, could be construed as racist propaganda. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are either thick, drunk or a plant. Probably all of the above imho but two out of three will do.

"The Jews don't rule the world. They don't run the US. They don't even run Israel!"
I've never even heard an anti-zionist suggest the Jews don't run Israel. I'm curious, are the Armenians in control there wearing false beards ? Is there a secret cabal of Irish controlling the country as a tax-scam ? I shouldn't tease you, I should let you lie down and sleep it off, or find something more educational for myself to do than talk to a fool and a liar.

No, I'm going to tease you, I can't resist the urge. I'm a bit vague, remind me where exactly is Hauge ? I think you yourself became irrelevant during your great grand mothers generation. Some people just shouldn't breed for the rest of our sakes, it's like infants urinating in the gene-pool.

orca


Regarding the Plant ...

15.03.2007 20:07

"IMW a "Zionist plant", don't make me laugh."

Become INdignant is a Tactic of Disinformation, and does not erase the fact that, since 2001, the IMC network has been set upon by Plants who fear IMC and its ability to cut through their carefull-crafted (but ultimately, one-directional) media veil.

"I know many activists that are ..."

Riiiiiiight. If Slander is all that you have left, then you've already lost this Information War. Plant.

"This Zionist mumbojumbo could very plausibly be a smokescreen to discredit serious research into the real warmongers"

No, prominent Zionists were instrumental in creating our current Madness, and Lobbying, and plotting for it to continue, so long as the Neo-Fascists remain empowered.

"The main use of a plant is to infiltrate a group and steer them ..."

But in this specific case, it is simply to Cast Doubt, Distract, and increase the Signal to Noise ratio. It's interesting that you've felt compelled to comment at such length about the story's summary paragraph, instead of the focus of the article itself.

"Israel is not the epicentre of all worldly woes."

I never said it was. It is, however, instrumental in the current Madness sweeping the world right now, regarding the illegal wars and covert activities throughout the ME, the spread of Islamophobia, and the creation of phony "crises" like the Iranian nuclear Canard, intended to feign a justification for a war these Extremists hope is inevitable.

No other Lobby in America has the unprecedented power that Israel/Zionism's Lobby does. IN fact, most of the senior members of the Bush/PNAC Regime share this radical ideology.

Dual Loyalties
The Bush Neocons and Israel
By KATHLEEN and BILL CHRISTISON
Former CIA political analysts
 http://www.counterpunch.org/christison09062004.html

There is nothing 'antisemitic' in pointing out these facts. Most Jews oppose these policies and beliefs as well. Your response, and its format, only highlights the faer these people have of coming under serious and ever-increasing scrutiny.

"The Saudis have undoubtedly more influence over the US than any Jewish lobby."

No, they don't.

They are Puppets who facilitate the profits of some powerful American families, but that's it.

"America doesn't jump just because Israel says so."

Normally, no. But with the current, unelected Regime in DC, they certainly give it more thought, or simply agree that they should be jumping, and invent their own nefarious reasons for doing so.

"This Jew fixation is highly dubious."

It's not about "jews", it's about evil people, ideologies, and organizations.

Your continued empty and transparent Slander only highlights the emptiness of your position, as well as your purpose here, Plant.

"What action do you suggest should be taken against these "Zionists"?"

All Lobbying should be done on the basis of political merit, and "contributions" to individual campaigns should be banned. Campaign funds should be drawn, equally, from a blind pool.

And unelected Regimes, who commit pathologically criminal acts, should be punished, and have their personal fortunes, built upon long histories of such activities, seized.

"The obvious antisemetic agenda I refer is regarding the two people that regularly spam this place with ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL"

Hmmmmm, how would you know these things, unless you were monitoring IP activity? So are you lying about this allegation, or are you an "official" Plant? Which is it? You just damned yourself with that statement.

The reason Israel/Zionism gets talked about so much, as you know, is because they are a part of this sad and frightening re-emergence of Fascism we've all been suffering through, and the ease of information-sharing - as the article you haven't addressed points out - has exposed these connections, and Israeli/Zionist crimes, like never before.

"don't you think that people who think Israel is ruling the planet are somewhat ..."

Nobody said these things. Again, your own Disinformation betrays and exposes you. Plant.

"(The Jews) don't even run Israel!"

That's right. Zionist Extremism does. But Jews worldwide are creating coalitions to depose them. I don't think they'll remain in power for much longer. I think their fear & desperation is in part what this whole thing is about.

"who'd like to see many Israeli politicians and generals in the Hauge on trial."

With any luck, you might soon see this.

Zionism, Irrelevant Within A Generation


What Makes Palestinians Think They Can?

15.03.2007 20:09

What Makes Palestinians Think They Can?
Posted February 4, 2007

30 years ago I was told that the liberation of Palestine must go through Washington. I understood that to mean that Washington has a say so in what has happened, and what is happening to the Palestinians. I was wrong; Washington turned out to be an Israeli occupied space just like Palestine.

I spent the last Twenty-Seven years trying to explain to the American public that the Palestinians are not the bad guys, only to find out that they, the Americans, were in worse shape than the Palestinians. At least the Palestinians knew who the enemy was, they could see him, he is the one with the big gun and the big CAT and wearing the star of David. The Palestinians and the Americans share the same enemy, the Zionist agenda …

I spent the last Twenty-Seven years spinning wheels to the point of burning rubber only to find myself in the same place where I started. Truth, Justice, facts, history, fairness, moral, right-thing …etc are just nouns that carry hardly any weight in front of the reality and cruelty of the human mind. American Muslims and Arabs in general, and Palestinians in particular are wasting their time in approaching issues dealing with Zionism. For decades, unintentionally, they made fighting Zionism an Arab exclusivity. For years, we visited churches and spoke at universities, showed films and documentaries, demonstrated in various American cities, and formed organizations one after another, but at the end all we can show for is smoke and the smell of burnt tar. We spent years designing, forming, and reforming, and reforming again, and again the structure of our “organizations” but forgot to add substance to those organizations. We always thought about what is good for Palestine and the Arabs, and neglected –not by design- what is good for America. Muslim Americans and Arab Americans must think of themselves as Americans first. They must think, feel, integrate, and contribute to the formation of the American Culture. A distinct American culture other than Western is forming and we must be part of this formation for two reasons: To be included, and to help our people in the homelands.

In Palestine they are visible now, in America they used to be hidden, just like they were in Palestine, and when they became strong enough they took over the country, just like they did in Palestine. “ This is precisely the case today with regards to the Jewish supremacist agenda, wherein those who are the operatives have become so confident in their success that they no longer go to the painstaking lengths that they used to in insulating themselves from the light of day.” Mark Glenn in his book ‘No Beauty In The Beast’

To me the fight is not in Palestine, but right here in America. It’s a fight between good and evil, a fight to keep the principles of freedom and democracy we as immigrants were attracted to, and our forefathers fought and died for. It’s a fight to keep America free and clear of any single entity’s control. It’s a fight for information and knowledge that the Constitution granted as a right. We must join in this battle for America. Don’t think you Muslims and Arabs are the only one in this fight; as a matter of fact you are yet to enter this fight. You have been fighting for your own communities’ issues and neglected America. There are thousands if not millions of “ordinary”-whatever that means- Americans who like to see the Zionist influence in America diminish. Once that happens, solving your problems here, and there and everywhere will be a matter of choice.

So how bad is the Zionist influence in America? Well, consider this: the Jewish population of America is about 5 million people, which is a little over one percent of the total population, and keep in mind that not all Jews are Zionists- many Jews are anti-Zionist- we end up with a percentage of less than one who actually control the government, the media, and the financial aspects of America. Let’s take a look at where some (few) of these people are: Paul Dundes Wolfowitz – not long ago was the Deputy Secretary, Department of Defense and now President of the World Bank, Richard Perle - Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Policy, Ari Fleischer - was White House Press Secretary and a director of World Jewish Congress, Josh Bolten - Deputy Chief of Staff, Ken Melman - White House Political Director, Jay Lefkowitz - Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of the Domestic Policy Council, Daniel Fried - Special Assistant to President and Senior Director for European and Eurasian Affairs, David Frum – Speechwriter-wrote the axis of evil speech-, Brad Blakeman - White House Director of Scheduling( he decides who sees Bush and who doesn’t), Dov Zakheim - Undersecretary of Defense (Controller), decides where the money goes, I. Lewis Libby - Chief of Staff to the Vice President, should be tried for treason for exposing Valerie Plame, a CIA agent, Elliott Abrams , an Israeli- now Director of the National Security Council’s Office for Near East affairs, that’s the office overseeing the U.S. Middle East policy. Abrams’ appointment is viewed as “a gift from heaven” for ‘Israel.’ , Douglas Feith – an Israeli,was Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, and was responsible for making up the big lies about Iraq buying Uranium from Africa, very close to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Michael Chertoff – Homeland Security Secretary, Allen Greenspan, Federal Reserve Chairman, a private firm that controls ALL financial aspects of the country, and many, many more. You can see some of them in this partial list. Add to that, most Ambassadors to Europe and to countries that count, plus most advisors on the National Security Council and other sensitive government positions. This gang and others were the ones who conned America into going to war against Iraq for Israel with a price tag of over 1700 American lives lost, and 400 billions of hard earned American money, and a loss of over 200 years of reputation building.

Senator William Fullbright of Arkansas who served until 1975 said, “ Israel controls the United States Senate. Around 80 percent are completely in support of Israel; what Israel wants it gets. Jewish influence in the House of Representatives is even greater.” This was back in the Seventies, now they wield partial to total control over 95 Senators and all 435 members of the House except maybe 23. Listen to Admiral Thomas Moorer, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff: “ I’ve never seen a President- I don’t care who he is- stand up to them (the Jews). They always get what they want, If the American people understood what a grip these people have got on our government, they would rise up in arms.” Paul Findley, a US Congressman for 22 years noted on the subject that:

“ Israel is able to stifle free speech, control our Congress, and even dictate our foreign policy.”

I would conclude by saying that the Zionists in America now are in the same position they were in back in 1948 in Palestine where they were in total control of the land but not the people. They were not interested in the people; they just wanted the land. In the case of America they are in total control of its people and resources, they are not interested in the land. They just want people to fight wars and the people’s money to finance their ambitions.

Is speaking out against Zionism, and its agents Anti-Semitic? No, but this is: “ The Palestinians should be crushed like grasshoppers, their heads smashed against boulders and walls.” Israeli Prime Minister, Yitzhak Shamir.

Hesham Tillawi, PhD

 Tillawi@currentissues.tv

 http://heshamtillawi.wordpress.com/

Hesham Tillawi, PhD


...

15.03.2007 21:37

 http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline

 http://rensewatch.blogspot.com/


 http://www.footnotetv.com/f911chap3-5.html

 http://www.wesjones.com/saudi1.htm

 http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=753&CategoryId=4

And that is all I can be bothered gathering in your alloted 5 mins.

"I'm a bit vague, remind me where exactly is [the] Hauge ? "

In your screed of insults, (typical of conspiracy theorist types), I'll just fire this back at you!

Speaks volumes.

You go back to your "Anti-Zionist" sites now.

Anti-Antisemitism


British "intelligence" ?

15.03.2007 23:59

"And that is all I can be bothered gathering in your alloted 5 mins."

Let's see, 21:37 - 18:54 = slightly more than five minutes. Two hours = five minutes, you seem to be slightly slower than either of us think. My alloted five minutes seems to have cost you slightly more.

"In your screed of insults, (typical of conspiracy theorist types), I'll just fire this back at you! Speaks volumes."
Wow, faster than a speeding sloth, if not as bright. It only took you two hours to come up with that conjoined smear and distraction ? With snappy and bright rejoinders like that I have to say, who needs friends when I have enemies like you ? You seem to be going downhill rapidly, so even if the ever tolerant admins allow your eagerly anticpated next self-embarrassing response to stand, you are just too easy a target for me, it would be cruel to respond any longer. I just have too much respect for all forms of life, even pond-life.

Or you could just keep this up and the thickest shit here could still embarrass you with more facts and less insults than you rely on, less distraction and dsiruption than you are capable of. I guess that is part of your employers "master-plan". It seems those non-Jews you say are ruling Israel are trying to discredit Israel with idiot posts pretending to be in support of them. Second guess, MI5has recruited a squaddie. Remind me again, why would I need to link to a a conspiracy web-site when I have you to bait ? WHAT A FAKER. You aren't even good at faking it, too drunk half the time maybe? It is encouraging that your employer is so starved of willing and competent whores that they have to settle for the remnants like you.

People, I really resent obvious spooks like this are so incompetent . Your and my family pay good money for intelligent spooks, and I appreciate a challenge, and yet all we get is this dunce under various names, they can't even buy the idiot a dictionary let alone the books he has claimed to read. It's like the CSA all over again, if slightly more insulting. Tell me again Mr Plant about what plants do ?

"You go back to your "Anti-Zionist" sites now."
Which sites do you want to smear or distract too? Cos I've never linked to any of them so you are hitting clear space here. For the third or fourth ime in a row. Or is is this just another rather sad misdirection ? Cos you know, lover boy, you are getting a bit obvious to more folks than me, prominent and incompitient can't be doing you pension prospects any good. And you, well, feel free, give me one smear that requires a fact to refute it, give me one straight answer to any of the valid points I have raised, or give me one proper argument that refutes any of mine without another smear or misdirection, or give us a copy of your resignation from whover you are working for. I'd hire you, you could polish my shoes with your tongue, I'm not as vendictive as some are.

Israel is innocent of everything. saud is awful. 911ers are nuts. Chavez is far worse than Bush. Yeah. Right. Heard. It Before. Here. Often. From. You. Under. A. Different. Name.

And you have bored me. I recognise your tactics, your stated opinions, your tactics, your bullshit. Too often. Plant.

BTW, Anti-Antisemitism is a double negative, it means you are pro-semitism. No complaints about that, except i know you didn't know that and you meant it is as an insult. Really, it is insulting our sppoks are so ignorant. I'm starting a campaign demanding less thick spooks.

orca


...

16.03.2007 01:07

"Israel is innocent of everything. "

Reread my POV. Israel is a "rouge state" of the highest order.

Anti-antisemitism


Stop Neo-Fascism

16.03.2007 01:54

A criminal, Apartheid state is more accurate.

And you'll offer this rather vague, limited hangout if what, we stop discussing the people responsible for the Madness and Neo-Fascism of the past five years?

Zionism, Irrelevant Within A Generation


...

16.03.2007 07:56

"the people responsible for the Madness and Neo-Fascism of the past five years?"

So the "Jewish Lobby" & Israel have been responsible for everything bad from 9/11 to Afghanistan to Gitmo to Iraq and Abu Ghraib.

I rest my case. Racist bullshit.

Antisemitic conspiracy, irrelevant within a generation


Strawman

16.03.2007 08:16

"So the "Jewish Lobby" & Israel have been responsible for everything bad from 9/11 to Afghanistan to Gitmo to Iraq and Abu Ghraib."

Nope. Nobody said that. Except you.

The term "Jewish Lobby" was introduced by the only "Jew Obsessive" on this thread. Yourself.

The people lobbying for war on Iran clearly don't represent the majority of American Jews, let alone those elsewhere.

I rest my case. Racist bullshit.

gobby


Manipulations Denote Empiness, Plant

16.03.2007 20:38

"So the "Jewish Lobby" & Israel have been responsible for everything bad from 9/11 to Afghanistan to Gitmo to Iraq and Abu Ghraib."

No, but EVERYONE in positions of power within the unelected Bush/PNAC Regime, responsible for all of that (including the 911 False Flags, in which Mossad played a role), are closely tied to the ZIONIST Lobby.

I hope this antisemitic (and anti-everyone else) conspiracy is made irrelevant in less than a decade!

Inside America's Powerful Israel/Zionist Lobby

www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/03/16/aipac/

The other Israel lobby

A new alliance, including financier George Soros and former Bill Clinton advisor Jeremy Ben-Ami, aims to take on the powerful lobbyist group AIPAC -- and reshape U.S. policy.

www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/12/19/israellobby/index.html

Israel's surge of despair

Top Israeli officials admit last summer's war against Hezbollah was a failure -- and denounce President Bush's actions in the Middle East.

www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/02/15/israel_despair/index.html

Israel lobby's summit included 'adoration for Cheney'
Mike Sheehan
rawstory.com/news/2007/Israel_lobbys_summit_included_adoration_for_0316.html

Zionism, Irrelevant Within A Generation


"The Jews!"

16.03.2007 21:50

Yeah, 9/11 & Mossad CT is really popluar with white supremicist/militia types like these guys:  http://www.americanfreepress.net/

You are in virtuous company!


Well you go on believing it's the tail wagging the dog- and attacking strawmen.

Personally, I think it makes more sense that the people with the chequebook are the ones calling the shots, the ones constructing/commissioning a pile of lies to attack Iran. Just like they did with Iraq. And not some little country that couldn't say boo to a goose without the Whitehouse writing them the cheques.

It's not "Zionists" behind the war in the Gulf, it's the Americans. They were complicit in the latest war on the Lebanon and with the UK they are actively trying their old tricks of deposing governments in the Middle East.

The fact that Israel is their cheerleader is no evidence of them being in the driving seat.

But hey, that makes me some racist fool I suppose.

Over and out!

Antisemitic conspiracy, irrelevant within a generation


stale zionist rhetoric

17.03.2007 03:20

"Yeah, 9/11 & Mossad CT is really popluar with white supremicist/militia types like these guys:  http://www.americanfreepress.net/

You are in virtuous company!"


They're also against ID cards and attacking Iran. Should the left stop campaigning against those issues as well? Are you seriously suggesting that we should design our politics so that no-one can say that we appear to share the same interests?

Wouldn't it just be wiser to suggest that anyone who thinks we're the same as that site is a bit of a prick?

"Personally, I think it makes more sense that the people with the chequebook are the ones calling the shots,"

Unless of course its the pro-Israel lobby - their chequebooks seem to have no power in your one track mind.

"The fact that Israel is their cheerleader is no evidence of them being in the driving seat."

No, and the fact that you keep accusing this site of being nazis is no evidence of it being true.

Are you just going to keep screaming NAZI and ignoring the response?

That was a rhetorical question by the way. The answer is really clear.




Gobby


Yawn ... Anyhow

17.03.2007 04:58

"Yeah, 9/11 & Mossad CT is really popluar with ..."

The people who've studied the facts and available evidence:

 http://www.patriotsquestion911.com
 http://www.911truth.org

Your Disinformation doesn't change that fact.

"the ones constructing/commissioning a pile of lies to attack Iran. Just like they did with Iraq."

Yes, and many of these LIES were created in Israel. It's not that Israel controls the US, but that the US is currently under the rule of an unelected Fascist Regime, which is Zionist itself, and aligned with Fascists & Extremists in Israel.

Look, if Slander is all you've got left, it's no wonder Zionism is on its way into the dustbin of history's other failed, reactionary and racist Ideologies.

Inside America's Powerful Israel/Zionist Lobby
www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/03/16/aipac/

The other Israel lobby

A new alliance, including financier George Soros and former Bill Clinton advisor Jeremy Ben-Ami, aims to take on the powerful lobbyist group AIPAC -- and reshape U.S. policy.

www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/12/19/israellobby/index.html

Israel's surge of despair

Top Israeli officials admit last summer's war against Hezbollah was a failure -- and denounce President Bush's actions in the Middle East.

www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/02/15/israel_despair/index.html

Israel lobby's summit included 'adoration for Cheney'
Mike Sheehan
rawstory.com/news/2007/Israel_lobbys_summit_included_adoration_for_0316.html

Zionism, Irrelevant Within A Generation


,,,

17.03.2007 05:31

I'm not accusing this site of being nazi. I never have. I'm accusing you!

Antisemitic conspiracy, irrelevant within a generation


mudslinging and hidden agendas

17.03.2007 09:15

"I'm not accusing this site of being nazi. I never have. I'm accusing you!"

Besides the fact that it isn't clear who you're directing the comment at, you've failed to do anything but sling about a lot of mud, and to advance a rather distorted picture of the state of Israel and the pro-Israel lobby in the US.

In your world Israel is "a monkey", 'not even run by Jews' - 'a cheerleader', 'a truly fucked state' - 'a rogue state' 'with a seriously powerful sponsor' 'not dissimilar to Saudi or Egypt', and you pooh pooh the idea that the Israel lobby wields any power by a) naming it the "Jewish Lobby" and b) asserting that its funding pales into significance compared to the likes of Bechtel, Halliborton, LockheedMartin, Exxon etc etc. According to you, cheques are powerful except when in the hands of the pro-Israel (in your terminology "Jewish") Lobby.

It seems that you just dismiss any evidence to the contrary and immediately jump to screams of NAZI and ANTI-SEMITE, and that you're on some kind of mission to hound someone off this newswire.

Its a prime example of the kind of behaviour that lead Yglesias to "bluntly explain":

“the idea, basically, is to scare the goyim who figure that while liberal Jews can take the heat, they probably can’t, and had best just avoid talking about the whole thing.”

The top posts in the Bush Administration has been seen to have been dominated by zionists and christian zionists, and already as the next presidential election looms, we see the Demokrat hopefuls being pulled into line by AIPAC.

If you truly believe that this isn't the case, why not write some coherent articles to show how the current wisdom is wrong, and how Israel has been unfairly identified as a major player in Iraq, Iran and the Middle East, when in fact the power is squarely in the hands of X or Y ?

Your behaviour on this thread has done nowt to undermine the claim that you are "a Zionist Plant, and member of "IMC-Watch" (amongst other Hate Sites)" here to censor the exchange of ideas. In fact, if anything it makes the claim look even more compelling.










Gobby


My agenda

17.03.2007 12:49

is quite open. I oppose racism. And people who obsess on Jews... sorry, Zionists and push the idea that they are in control of the most powerful nation on the planet are racists.

This is well-troden territory, the old Zoinist Occupational Government charge. In fact, it's pretty much the same conspiracy theory that the people that inspired Hitler peddled.

There is a massive difference between researching group influence on policy and maintaining they (2.1% of pop. cf: ethnic Germans 2.9%; Spanish 60%) are actually controlling the government. That they are in fact Al Qaeda! That in short they are the people pulling the strings on the world's political stage. It's like painting "anti-Zionist" stripes on the old antisemitic horse and expecting people to see a difference. It best it's just rebranding.

I'm suspicious of the volume of posts you make from sites that obsess on American Jews and Israel.

As I have stated, I consider Israel a rogue state, a nigh-on genocidal state and consider many Israeli (and US) actions to be war crimes. Even it's current borders are illegal under international law.

However, just because I have a lot of anger for how that state has behaved and is behaving, doesn't mean to say I have an zionist agenda for not buying into centuries old racist touchstones.

Your so-called evidence is circular in its selective logic: just because Israel benefits from protection from and sponsorship of the US doesn't mean that is because Israel has the US in control. It is because Israel is of strategic value to the US. You are confusing cause and effect, and for very obvious prejudices.

If that makes me dubious in your eyes, I'm very glad.

I'll carry on supporting a free Palestine, for safety for Israel's neighbours, in calling for the Security Council to enforce R. 242, unemcumbered by the belief that the Jews are carrying the plague and have signed a pact with Satan himself.

Antisemitic conspiracy, irrelevant within a generation


Racist agenda?

17.03.2007 13:06

"Your so-called evidence is circular in its selective logic: just because Israel benefits from protection from and sponsorship of the US doesn't mean that is because Israel has the US in control. It is because Israel is of strategic value to the US. You are confusing cause and effect, and for very obvious prejudices."

We've already established that you don't believe that AIPAC exerts influence and that you would like to pretend that many of the top posts in the pre-Iraq Bush Administration were not zionists.

"It's like painting "anti-Zionist" stripes on the old antisemitic horse and expecting people to see a difference. It best it's just rebranding."

Except the "Jew Obsessive" on this thread is you. Other commenteers have repeatedly asserted that the pro-Israel lobby does not represent all Jews. In fact, the assertion is that they do not represent the majority of jews.


"I'll carry on supporting a free Palestine, for safety for Israel's neighbours, in calling for the Security Council to enforce R. 242, unemcumbered by the belief that the Jews are carrying the plague and have signed a pact with Satan himself."

After your line about "I oppose racism. And people who obsess on Jews... ", perhaps you can clarify your stand on the issue of Right of Return.

Do you think that the dispossed people of Palestine should be refused the right to return to their land on the basis that they aren't Jewish, whilst a Jew from Europe or America has a right to move there whenever they feel like it?

Because that stinks of racism.

Jewish racism.



Gobby


...

17.03.2007 14:47

As much as I think the Palestinians deserve all their sovereign territory back, I think the two state solution is the most realistic. But really, it's arrogant of me to think I have any meaningful say in the matter, since I am neither Jewish nor Arab.

Of course, Palestinians and Jews should both have the right to return, the right to compensation, the right to family life the right to justice... and every other right afforded to everyone under the UN Charter.

And as far as I can tell, the only thing standing in the way of that is the USA. Like Blair and Bush, I see the Israel situation as being probably the most important issue of the day. Unlike them, I don't see destabilising the Palestinian's democratically elected government, trying to destroy Hizbollah on a false pretext, accusing Syria and Iran as being terrorists as anything other than totally inflammatory and counterproductive.

But, I think when you consider that American Jews constitute 2% of the US population and that Israel exists on US handouts, the assertion that they could initiate the war in Iraq is patently absurd- like saying that people on the dole dictate DWP policy.

Not that I am denying that there are hardline right-wingers who'll dance to the Neocons tune when they need support, but basically, Israel has no bargaining power whatsoever- neither financially nor politically: the Jewish vote is no great shakes and EU divestment would be more of a blow.

If the US were to pull the plug on Israel it'd be wiped off the map in months (illegal WMD or not- I wouldn't like to guess what would happen in Saudi and Pakistan if the Israelis nuked a muslim country. The stability of those regimes is shaky as it is).

Israel is a useful staging post for terrorising the region. Another proxy nuclear power.

The US, USSR and the EU have created a moster in Central & South Asia & the Arab/Farsi states, and from what I can see they haven't learned their lesson yet. But until the Security Council as we know it is disbanded the situation is doomed.

And, I'm sorry, but all these conspiracy sites that enflessly invent stories of Mossad being behind 9/11, 7/7, Spain, Indonesia, etc etc etc really are just tarted up racism, as is the obsessive assertion that a tiny little country rules the US and the World- irrespective of its attrocities and impugnity.

Antisemitic conspiracy, irrelevant within a generation