Photographing Security Features
Tim | 17.02.2007 05:18 | Repression | London
I was stopped by police for taking photos of security cameras under the terrorism legislation. Whilst they where quizing me, they violently arrested a passer by for a public order offence.
A strange thing happened to me tonight;
I'm walking back across London, from Piccadilly Circus to Waterloo
East, taking photos of interesting things. I start to notice how many
CCTV cameras I'm on whilst I'm doing this, and take a few shots of the
more striking ones, or ones in interesting locations. I'm also taking
shots of reflections in the water, buskers and all sorts of random
things and people.
I get to Waterloo station, and wander around for a while, taking a few
photos, of the camera near the war memorial (can you see where this is
heading?) a collection of four cameras next to each other covered in
anti-pigeon spikes, a few shop fronts and other stuff.
I'm getting a bit hungry so I decide to walk across to Waterloo East
to get a train. I notice that there are 4 cameras covering the
entrance way to the walk in medical center at the top of the
escalators. Which I find quite amusing, so I take some shots of that.
Then I spot three police officers confronting a female in the middle
of the corridor. There is a security camera sticking out of the wall
in the foreground above the level of their heads. I can't resist. I
take a photo.
I didn't get chance to look at what I had shot, there are two
community support officers, one male one female, standing right behind
me. By the time I had taken them in, I have the three police I had
originally seen right next to me on the other side. I'm totally
surrounded.
One of them, the shortest, oldest one, is right up close to me. I can
tell he is spoiling. I've seen it many times when I was younger at
school, I've seen it from drunk 18 year olds when I was a student.
I've seen it at kicking out time in town centers. I've never seen it
from a sober, middle aged police man before (not so focused, and
apparent, like this anyway).
He asks me what I'm taking photos of, I explain what the shot I
had just taken was, said I was documenting the privacy implications of
security cameras. He said, or more snarled, "Isn't it just common
courtesy to ask people before you take photos of them". I guess he
meant him. I didn't answer (avoid contradicting people directly, it
tends to escalate the situation).
At some point I give my drivers license to one of the community
support officers (probably a bad idea, but I don't want to get
arrested tonight, and I'm not sure if I have actually broken the law,
they change so often at the moment).
He wanted to look at the photos, so I let him. He said he "wasn't
happy", he threatened to arrest me under the "terrorism act". He was
very aggressive, very threatening. Wanted to know why I was taking
photos of cameras, if I was a terrorist.
I said "I'm no threat", and he replied "that's probably what Saddam
Hussein said". I was a little lost for words.
I said that I found it interesting that the entrance to a medic center
would be covered by so many cameras.
I'm not sure of the order of what happened next. Somehow the female
community support officer got tasked with deleting the photos, or
getting me to do it. I think that I deleted the photo of the
aggressive leader in order to calm him down. It may have been at his
request. The reason that I am having so much trouble working out what
happened here is because something very unexpected and odd happened at
about the same time.
A male, mid to late 20s was walking past as the aggressive chap was
flicking through the pictures and one or two other of the police where
trying to peak over his and my shoulders at what they where. The
passer by stopped, and said, "hey, you guys shouldn't be looking at
his personal photos".
The aggressive guy, concentrating on the photos, responded quickly,
almost automatically, "he gave us permission". I knew the situation
was still in the balance, I think he was trying to decide if he could
get away with arresting me. I said, "I gave him permission" (which I'm
not sure is exactly true, but I'm not exactly sure is false).
The passer by said, "well, you still shouldn't be looking at someones
personal pictures". I didn't predict the response. The aggressive guy
left me (the potential terrorist), and said to the passer by "you get
up against the wall, have you got any ID?". The passer by turns and
starts to walk towards the wall, muttering under his breath "oh
fucking hell".
There is half a second pause, then the aggressive leader turns and
shoves the passer by in his lower back. Hard. He shouts "did you swear
at me?". The passer by looks surprised (as do I, and the two community
support officers standing with me). Before the passer by can do
anything, "Right, I'm arresting you under section 5 [I think] of the
public order act". And shoves him toward the wall. The passer by just
tenses up, no active resistance, just goes rigid. "Get against the
wall or I'll handcuff you". "Do it or we'll use the cuffs". The two
other police (who had been standing doing nothing) grab an arm each.
Me and the community support officers are just staring slightly open
mouthed at this. The community support officers start to try and
carrying on asking me about why I was taking the photos, but in
more of an enquiring "interested" way.
I say something about having an artistic interest in cameras and
privacy and behaviour. But I can't really concentrate as there is
quite a violent (from the police) struggle and shouting going on next
to us. The male community support officer decides he better go help.
Suddenly the aggressive leader lets go of the bystander and runs round
to the front of him. "I'm going to spray you. Get down or I'm going to
spray you". The female community support officer decides she better go
help.
I think he may have sprayed the passer by. I'm not sure.
I'm (the potential terrorist) left standing by myself watching, I
believe, 6 police and community support officers wrestle the passer by
to the ground. I'm not sure if there where 6 because an additional
police officer arrived from somewhere, or if I miss counted.
They manage to get the cuffs on him and then haul him to his feet. All
but the male community support officer take the passer by off down the
corridor. As the female community support officer leaves she says to
her companion "make sure you delete the rest of the photos".
After they had gone, the male community support officer asks me if I
want a receipt. I say yes, and we chat for a bit, about where I'm from
and the size of the boxes on his form. He tells me that the London
"7/7 bombers" had taken photos of Waterloo station on a "dry run" and
that when the police had spent ages pouring over the footage from all
the CCTV cameras they had found video of the bombers taking photos
with mobile phones.
He tells me that they sometimes solve crimes that the victim doesn't
even know had happened. And tells me about a woman who had her bag
stolen from between her legs (I think whilst siting at one of the food
places), and they recovered it and gave it back to her before she knew
it had gone.
I show him some of the pictures, he seems to like a few, especially
the one I had taken of the three big cameras, "that's all cameras that
one", "yeah, I just saw the three big cameras and then the baby one".
He still wants me to delete it. The one of the war memorial makes him
pause, "oh, I didn't know there was one there, there are so many you
just forget". He lets me keep the ones without any cameras in, and the
ones from before I entered the station.
He tells me about a team from the metropolitan police (I find out he
is British Transport Police community support officer), who had come
to do some filming at Waterloo. And had been stopped within 30seconds
by his transport police colleagues. The metropolitan police gave
Waterloo station top marks. They wanted to carry on filming, but where
made to apply for permission. He told me how I could apply for
permission and get a visitors pass which would stop me getting any
hassle, if I wanted to take more photos.
He told me that since I had been stopped under the terrorism act, they
didn't need to have any suspicion of me at all. Not to worry as there
was no record that could be queried if I got stopped again. He also
told me that since it was a stop under the terrorism act, he had to
put his number on the form instead of his name.
Nice guy, professional (if that means anything) and calm. He gave me
my copy and left.
There are many things about this that I am having trouble getting
perspective on. Its totally bizarre. The arrest of the passer by itself,
and the totally unnecessary violence with which it was conducted
shocked me.
On my form, it says I was stopped for "Photographing Security
Features", and the outcome was "words of advice".
I'm walking back across London, from Piccadilly Circus to Waterloo
East, taking photos of interesting things. I start to notice how many
CCTV cameras I'm on whilst I'm doing this, and take a few shots of the
more striking ones, or ones in interesting locations. I'm also taking
shots of reflections in the water, buskers and all sorts of random
things and people.
I get to Waterloo station, and wander around for a while, taking a few
photos, of the camera near the war memorial (can you see where this is
heading?) a collection of four cameras next to each other covered in
anti-pigeon spikes, a few shop fronts and other stuff.
I'm getting a bit hungry so I decide to walk across to Waterloo East
to get a train. I notice that there are 4 cameras covering the
entrance way to the walk in medical center at the top of the
escalators. Which I find quite amusing, so I take some shots of that.
Then I spot three police officers confronting a female in the middle
of the corridor. There is a security camera sticking out of the wall
in the foreground above the level of their heads. I can't resist. I
take a photo.
I didn't get chance to look at what I had shot, there are two
community support officers, one male one female, standing right behind
me. By the time I had taken them in, I have the three police I had
originally seen right next to me on the other side. I'm totally
surrounded.
One of them, the shortest, oldest one, is right up close to me. I can
tell he is spoiling. I've seen it many times when I was younger at
school, I've seen it from drunk 18 year olds when I was a student.
I've seen it at kicking out time in town centers. I've never seen it
from a sober, middle aged police man before (not so focused, and
apparent, like this anyway).
He asks me what I'm taking photos of, I explain what the shot I
had just taken was, said I was documenting the privacy implications of
security cameras. He said, or more snarled, "Isn't it just common
courtesy to ask people before you take photos of them". I guess he
meant him. I didn't answer (avoid contradicting people directly, it
tends to escalate the situation).
At some point I give my drivers license to one of the community
support officers (probably a bad idea, but I don't want to get
arrested tonight, and I'm not sure if I have actually broken the law,
they change so often at the moment).
He wanted to look at the photos, so I let him. He said he "wasn't
happy", he threatened to arrest me under the "terrorism act". He was
very aggressive, very threatening. Wanted to know why I was taking
photos of cameras, if I was a terrorist.
I said "I'm no threat", and he replied "that's probably what Saddam
Hussein said". I was a little lost for words.
I said that I found it interesting that the entrance to a medic center
would be covered by so many cameras.
I'm not sure of the order of what happened next. Somehow the female
community support officer got tasked with deleting the photos, or
getting me to do it. I think that I deleted the photo of the
aggressive leader in order to calm him down. It may have been at his
request. The reason that I am having so much trouble working out what
happened here is because something very unexpected and odd happened at
about the same time.
A male, mid to late 20s was walking past as the aggressive chap was
flicking through the pictures and one or two other of the police where
trying to peak over his and my shoulders at what they where. The
passer by stopped, and said, "hey, you guys shouldn't be looking at
his personal photos".
The aggressive guy, concentrating on the photos, responded quickly,
almost automatically, "he gave us permission". I knew the situation
was still in the balance, I think he was trying to decide if he could
get away with arresting me. I said, "I gave him permission" (which I'm
not sure is exactly true, but I'm not exactly sure is false).
The passer by said, "well, you still shouldn't be looking at someones
personal pictures". I didn't predict the response. The aggressive guy
left me (the potential terrorist), and said to the passer by "you get
up against the wall, have you got any ID?". The passer by turns and
starts to walk towards the wall, muttering under his breath "oh
fucking hell".
There is half a second pause, then the aggressive leader turns and
shoves the passer by in his lower back. Hard. He shouts "did you swear
at me?". The passer by looks surprised (as do I, and the two community
support officers standing with me). Before the passer by can do
anything, "Right, I'm arresting you under section 5 [I think] of the
public order act". And shoves him toward the wall. The passer by just
tenses up, no active resistance, just goes rigid. "Get against the
wall or I'll handcuff you". "Do it or we'll use the cuffs". The two
other police (who had been standing doing nothing) grab an arm each.
Me and the community support officers are just staring slightly open
mouthed at this. The community support officers start to try and
carrying on asking me about why I was taking the photos, but in
more of an enquiring "interested" way.
I say something about having an artistic interest in cameras and
privacy and behaviour. But I can't really concentrate as there is
quite a violent (from the police) struggle and shouting going on next
to us. The male community support officer decides he better go help.
Suddenly the aggressive leader lets go of the bystander and runs round
to the front of him. "I'm going to spray you. Get down or I'm going to
spray you". The female community support officer decides she better go
help.
I think he may have sprayed the passer by. I'm not sure.
I'm (the potential terrorist) left standing by myself watching, I
believe, 6 police and community support officers wrestle the passer by
to the ground. I'm not sure if there where 6 because an additional
police officer arrived from somewhere, or if I miss counted.
They manage to get the cuffs on him and then haul him to his feet. All
but the male community support officer take the passer by off down the
corridor. As the female community support officer leaves she says to
her companion "make sure you delete the rest of the photos".
After they had gone, the male community support officer asks me if I
want a receipt. I say yes, and we chat for a bit, about where I'm from
and the size of the boxes on his form. He tells me that the London
"7/7 bombers" had taken photos of Waterloo station on a "dry run" and
that when the police had spent ages pouring over the footage from all
the CCTV cameras they had found video of the bombers taking photos
with mobile phones.
He tells me that they sometimes solve crimes that the victim doesn't
even know had happened. And tells me about a woman who had her bag
stolen from between her legs (I think whilst siting at one of the food
places), and they recovered it and gave it back to her before she knew
it had gone.
I show him some of the pictures, he seems to like a few, especially
the one I had taken of the three big cameras, "that's all cameras that
one", "yeah, I just saw the three big cameras and then the baby one".
He still wants me to delete it. The one of the war memorial makes him
pause, "oh, I didn't know there was one there, there are so many you
just forget". He lets me keep the ones without any cameras in, and the
ones from before I entered the station.
He tells me about a team from the metropolitan police (I find out he
is British Transport Police community support officer), who had come
to do some filming at Waterloo. And had been stopped within 30seconds
by his transport police colleagues. The metropolitan police gave
Waterloo station top marks. They wanted to carry on filming, but where
made to apply for permission. He told me how I could apply for
permission and get a visitors pass which would stop me getting any
hassle, if I wanted to take more photos.
He told me that since I had been stopped under the terrorism act, they
didn't need to have any suspicion of me at all. Not to worry as there
was no record that could be queried if I got stopped again. He also
told me that since it was a stop under the terrorism act, he had to
put his number on the form instead of his name.
Nice guy, professional (if that means anything) and calm. He gave me
my copy and left.
There are many things about this that I am having trouble getting
perspective on. Its totally bizarre. The arrest of the passer by itself,
and the totally unnecessary violence with which it was conducted
shocked me.
On my form, it says I was stopped for "Photographing Security
Features", and the outcome was "words of advice".
Tim
e-mail:
fpmtmail@googlemail.com
Additions
Waterloo Station
17.02.2007 07:28
While the police behaviour is appalling, as usual, the problem was you were filming in the station, which is asking for trouble. To avoid the police deleting your pics in future use a good mobile phone camera which is capable of emailing your pics as soon as they are taken.
Itsme
Photo recovery
17.02.2007 09:43
Its usually pretty straighforward to recover "deleted" photos from the camera's memory as long as you haven't taken more photos afterwards. Deleting things usually just marks the space as available to be used again rather than actually destroying any data. Google things like data recovery, there's many commercial programs available and some free ones. They turn up regularly on the discs that come with computer magazines too...
fig
PCSOs
17.02.2007 11:02
The one who kept threatening arrests was a PCSO rather than a real officer? Since when did they get power of arrest (as opposed to temporary detention) anyway? Still, like you said, pointing that out to him would just be inflammatory.
It seems a bit pointless for suicide bombers to establish surveillance coverage. They don't need to plan for a getaway and subsequent evasion of capture and they can pretty well guarantee being filmed on the tube if they are looking for publicity.
It seems a bit pointless for suicide bombers to establish surveillance coverage. They don't need to plan for a getaway and subsequent evasion of capture and they can pretty well guarantee being filmed on the tube if they are looking for publicity.
Bobby
welcome to 21st century britain
17.02.2007 12:01
This whole thing of you being threatened for engaging in innocent activities during these times of mass hysteria without you having actually commited any specific crime is known as issue creep. I remember being similarly threatened for taking crap arty pics around a Swindon shopping centre of all places during the height of all the IRA hysteria back in the 70s. You should send a condensed report, probably without all the bystanders stuff to amateur photographer magazine
http://www.amateurphotographer.com
as they've had similar complaints and they're well up for defending the rights of all photographers from being further eroded. They will often demand an explanation from a chief cop etc. I don't think the cops have any right to make you delete pics without some kind of court order? I can understand you complying if you just wanted to get home the same night and have an easy time though. In any case let me know if you want an undelete program as I have several for windows that usually recover everything provided you haven't done anything that writes to the memory card in the meantime like take more pics on top or they'll really be lost.
http://www.amateurphotographer.com as they've had similar complaints and they're well up for defending the rights of all photographers from being further eroded. They will often demand an explanation from a chief cop etc. I don't think the cops have any right to make you delete pics without some kind of court order? I can understand you complying if you just wanted to get home the same night and have an easy time though. In any case let me know if you want an undelete program as I have several for windows that usually recover everything provided you haven't done anything that writes to the memory card in the meantime like take more pics on top or they'll really be lost.
kriptick
e-mail:
amateurphotographer@ipcmedia.com
Homepage:
http://www.amateurphotographer.com
Next step?
17.02.2007 12:30
Can I urge you to make a complaint to the police about the incident - they already have your details and you have the search form.
I know of at least one case where someone successfully sued the cops because an independent bystander went to a police station, after the incident, and made a complaint.
Liberty has some advice for you:
http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/issues/6-free-speech/s44-terrorism-act/index.shtml
including:
"• Write to Lord Carlile, the independent monitor of the implementation of anti-terrorism legislation (Lord Carlile of Berriew QC, The House of Lords London SW1A 0AA)"
I know of at least one case where someone successfully sued the cops because an independent bystander went to a police station, after the incident, and made a complaint.
Liberty has some advice for you:
http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/issues/6-free-speech/s44-terrorism-act/index.shtml including:
"• Write to Lord Carlile, the independent monitor of the implementation of anti-terrorism legislation (Lord Carlile of Berriew QC, The House of Lords London SW1A 0AA)"
Sue daBastards
Comments
Hide the following 6 comments
what happend to
17.02.2007 10:42
Zapper
Be a witness
17.02.2007 12:10
There must be some way you can track this guy down and offer your help as a witness.
Personally I'd have photographed the arrest. Sure, I'd probably have been obstructed or even arrested but such is the nature of our police state.
please
dont let these people intimidate you
18.02.2007 01:54
Have some balls for fucks sake.
Challenge them on everything , take them on , they are only people , whats the worst that can happen?
Dont let these weak people treat you like a piece of shit.
Be more aggressive , be more confident , they cant hurt you.
We'll get nowhere with this passive nonsense.
Wake up , they are wrong.
daggle
passerby
18.02.2007 09:39
dna
Rambling
18.02.2007 21:10
Of course it is going to concern the police if you are seen taking pictures of all the cameras throughout the station. Most cops would be thinking you were scopping the area, planning on taking the cameras out or avoiding them when engaged in some sort of petty crime, a few might think theres a small % chance you had more nefarious purposes in mind. Either way it kinda justifies stopping and chatting to you, maybe IDing you and PNCing you etc.
However making you delete the photos once your identity is established and not alteria motive detected is a breach of your civil liberties and you should complain about that element to the IPCC.
As for the guy arrested section 5, unfortunately SOCPA allows police to arrest people for S5 Public Order without giving them a warning as they used to have to do. Whilst most cops wouldnt give a rats ass if someone is heard swearing in public, you occasionally encounter shitheads that think its appropiare to arrest people for saying stuff like 'shame its pissing down with rain' and other non offensive comments. If you get one of these guys harass you, just behave yourself, let them nick you, refuse to accept a ticket for the offence (Fixed penalty for disorder), go not guilty at magistrates court, you can almost guarantee a not guilty charge at crown court. Once the police force in question ends up having to pay court fees for a few 'jumped up' s5 public order arrests a rogue officer has decided to push through, you can bet the cop in question will be told in no uncertain terms to stop being a shit head.
Afterall the offence was supposed to be used against racist hooligans shouting abuse at football matches and used against people standing in the street, tanked up, screaming and swearing at people, not used against people overheard swearing in general conversation.
Also, avoid visiting Surrey any time soon, some of the jobsworths there have been ticketing people or arresting them if they refuse to accept the fine, for public order literally down to them having a swear word on a t-shirt or anything 'potentially offensive' like t-shirt hell images. In the past cops always asked you to turn t-shirts inside out if they had offensive words on them and you were wearing it in the day in the street etc, but now some are just nicking people outright. Easy boost to the arrest figures i suppose for older or inept cops that dont have the bottle to go after proper villains and wifebeaters, so harass college kids and the like.
Steve
National Rail Policy
19.02.2007 22:50
"You can take photographs at stations provided you do not sell them. However, you are not allowed to take photographs of security related equipment, such as CCTV cameras."
"You are also not allowed to take photographs of security related equipment such as CCTV cameras."
"You are also not allowed to take photographs of security related equipment such as CCTV cameras."
Tim
e-mail:
fpmtmail@googlemail.com