"but more significantly they can also remotely install a piece of software on to any handset, without the owner's knowledge"

This would be significant, were it actually true. There are some handsets that can have software remotely installed but they are not compatible with UK networks, and even in the US they are not common.

Presumably the phone can't be tracked or bugged if it is switched off.

as the bill bugged me.

de-activate =
Take the battery out =
Unbugged!

more here  http://www.freebeagles.org/articles/mobile_phones.html#4

de-activate =
Take the battery out =
Unbugged!



No, no, no. I've a tawdry electronics qualificatiion but I could bug your phone even with the battery out if I had access to it for 5 minutes. If you want to discuss anything of importance, leave your phones out of ear-shot. Don't be paranoid, be rational. A small cell in a phone can be used to temporarily replace your 'battery'.

Yes Harry phones can be tracked when they are switched off.

A mobile phone obsessed society like ours (which didn't exist 15 years ago) is open
to bugging - tracking - and any other shit the State deems necessary (waste of time).
What the fuck do people talk about all the time on their mobiles anyway?

A created need for mobile phones has led us all into a big brother scenario which can be avoided - chuck the fucking things in the river!!

cn you explain to me how you would track a mobile phone which is switched off and hasn't been tampered with?

tracking and bugging while phone on = yes
tracking and bugging while phone 'off' and battery in place = yes
tracking and bugging while phone off and battery removed = no

okay, so somebody could tamper with your phone if they had physical access for long enough and insert a separate bug or tracking device with it's own (limited) power supply. but mobile phones have zero extra space inside them for any additional battery of significant size to be added so forget the idea that they will continue to operate when you remove the battery. as for backup cells used to keep the memory in place while you swap the main battery - they are tiny and not powerful enough to do anything beyond maintaining the memory.

lets be realistic about this phone stuff.

1. they ARE tracking devices and that requires nothing beyond access to the computer systems of your phone network which all intelligence agencies would have and any decent private investigator would also be able to access that information given time.

2. they ARE means to identify associates and networks of association, either via physical access to your phone and it's phonebook and calls register or remotely either hacking your phone via bluetooth or the network, or once again through the data retained by your mobile phone network operator.

3. they COULD BE bugs in real time. possible but unlikely in most cases unless you are being investigated for your mafia or Al Qaeda links. your phones 'talk time' due to limited battery life is the limiting factor here. if your phone was remotely turned into a transmitter the battery would go flat much much faster than you expected - within hours rather than days.

4. turning the phone off DOES NOTHING do defend you as 'off' is merely the equivalent of standby and the software in the phone can continue to periodically report to the nearest cell repeater or switch itself to transmit without you being aware, if that's what somebody really wanted.

5. taking the battery out IS a practical defense. backup battery cells are tiny by comparison and configured to maintain memory functions date/time etc while the main battery is changed. while they could theoretically be used to power the transmitter, it could only do so for a very limited period of time, probably less than a minute.

6. knowledge IS useful, paranoia IS NOT

"but mobile phones have zero extra space inside them for any additional battery of significant size to be added so forget the idea that they will continue to operate when you remove the battery...."

When talking about security it is somewhat suspicious that you talk as if you are an expert when you obviously know nothing.

The argument there is no space in a mobile phone to place a backup cell is simply wrong for most phones, especially the older, bulkier phones most activists can afford. Open one up and see. Perhaps you don't know how small a power source can be. as it would easy to recharge this back up cell, or more likely a high charge capacitor, from the normal battery. A 'super cap' capacitor can maintain it's power for years, be recharged thousands of times, can power your phone and come in sizes small enough to fit inside even the tightest phone. A super cap can even be screen-printed flatly by a 1st year student onto the cover of your phone.

"taking the battery out IS a practical defense. backup battery cells are tiny by comparison and configured to maintain memory functions date/time etc while the main battery is changed. while they could theoretically be used to power the transmitter, it could only do so for a very limited period of time, probably less than a minute"

What an idiot you are, calling other people paranoid while pretending to be an expert on their security. If you think knowledge is useful then why not do five minutes research even if you can't be bothered getting an electronics qualification ? The cell or cap wouldn't need to power the transmitter to act as a bugging device, in fact that could be a giveaway through the heat it would generate, it could simply act as a recorder to be transmitted when the main battery is reinstalled.

Also, do you really know the history of every phone in your group ? You get functional mobile phones that fire bullets. These are obviously built for that purpose rather than tampered with but since activists have been removing their batteries for years, do you really think it is beyond the wit of security services to

Why distrust everyone carrying phones with their cells in only to risk allowing them to carry the phones with the battery out ? If everyone is going to the hassle of taking their batteries out then why not dump them all in a bag 20m away ? And while you are at it, dump every other piece of electronics you are carrying too. Only careless idiots and agents accuse careful activists of being parnoid.

"cn you explain to me how you would track a mobile phone which is switched off and hasn't been tampered with?"
There is a difference between switched off and unpowered. Think of it being in standby mode when you 'turn it off', in other words only parts of the circuitry are off.

"There are some handsets that can have software remotely installed but they are not compatible with UK networks, and even in the US they are not common."

Unless you are a phone manufacturer coder or can provide convincing links then forgive me if I take this with a pinch of salt. Considering nearly all commercial computer software gets pssed through the NSA for 'approval', it would be trusting to assume phone companies don't do the same.

If all you are doing is sit-downs and blocks, then don't worry too much. If you are risking prison time then only talk through passed notes to people you trust and make sure they are burned. Hezbullah leaders don't use mobiles since the Israelis either plant bombs in them to blow their heads off or use the signal to guide in missiles. Rich criminals who need mobiles keep a big stack of them and chuck them away regularly. Mafia dons just write notes - even that isn't fool proof, one was caught by his laundry list recently.

The very fact several activists phone all suddenly converge and then get turned off should be indicating to the authorities that something is up. Good practice eliminates doubt. Leave your mobile at home.