lefty neolberal gringos with no clue but plenty of mouth manage to twist and turn every single issue into a pro neoliberal left propaganda item.

please pescao, fucking stop twisting the issues for your newspaper selling interests. like with the mapuche issue, stop sucking blood. what part of appo dont you understand? i'd say none. what part of bellow to the left anticapitalist dont you understand?

it doesnt matter how many times you and your cronies repeat it. yesterday was not a day of action for a president of the republic candidate. although he held a mock presidency take over play in zocalo in mexico. it was called for the grassroots fighters of atenco, with those of oaxaca, for the women that have been harrased by the PFPuckers. those are calls of the people bellow for and with the people bellow.

then you vultures come ... WHAT PART OF APPO DONT YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND? WHY DO YOU KEEP TRYING TO BRING EVERYONE TO THINK THAT ALL SOUTHAMERICAN/LATINAMERICAN/INDOAMERICAN STRUGGLES ARE PRO "LEFT PRESIDENTS"? WHO DO YOU WORK FOR? always trying to bring down grass roots organisation.

please everyone take a look at the graffity all over oaxaca, that is what is real and how the people are talking but dont miss the very own APPO WEBSITE> you too pescao. and read it with the dictionary by your side, on the banner what part of :

ser libre no es facil.nadie ha dicho que la lucha libertaria seria facil adelante compañeros. luchemos por una oaxaca mejor. A LAS BARRICADAS. cierra las calles abre caminos."

"being free is not easy.noone said that the libertarian struggle would be easy compañeros. lets fight for a better oaxaca. take to the barricades. close the streets, open the ways.

OR/AND the other banner - do you think they are there to make you look cool?

ESTE NO ES UN MOVIMIENTO DE LIDERES. ES*DE BASES.
con el pueblo hasta el final. por la caida de ulises ruiz.

THIS IS NOT A MOVEMENT OF LEADER. IS*OF THE GRASSROOTS.
with the people to the end. for the fall of ulises ruiz.

or you think people are stupid? that they dont mean it? like that makes us wonder what YOU mean and what not, what is just lefty drible to attrackt naive ppl. looking for an easy revolution song.

the people of atenco are for the other campaign and for autonomy read autonomia. do you understand the word? and anticapitalist? , and self(comunity) organised?.

NOONE IS ASKING FOR A PRESIDENT. this colour or that colour of capitalist president.noone is calling for a new leader of a repressive PFP.

on the contrary the other campaign, the ezln, the zapatistas and the delegate zero ( delegation, you see? a crucial part of horizontalism, direct democracy, equity, self managment, responsaility, autonomy... ) have called for grass roots organising aside whatever the executors of power are and repeated that all politicians are thieves at the service of capital. and if you knew anything about mexico and for example the video tapes scandals, you would know what am saying. bola de repressores. you know how many grassroots social activists amlo and his police jailed? krist!

what amoount of toss comes from this disingenuous power freaky manipulators is just sick. your unions and rethoric suck, your speech never meets the facts. please stay away from the movements we all belong to are trying to build and stop trying to prevent people to have a go at tryingt so that we can build other worlds without leaders without idols, particularly when they have been built of regurgitated prostituted ideals.

what tome of ricardo flores magon, a teacher from oaxaca, a libertarian thinker from the times of zapata, anarchist at worse and HUGE influence in the teachers movement in oaxaca, have did you failed to buy in waterstones? what multicoloured book of collective decision making in indygenous culture and what cd of their recent struggles have you failed to entertein yourself with? because it is these filosophy in organisation and attack that inspires our mistakes in our ways in oaxaca and in Earth.

for you this appo poster, and a libertarian song from that lovely spanish civil war were your people made sure to destroy all freedom struggles to succeed. dont go making fucking trendy rich activist poser t-shirts with it and charge £10 for the uk bolivarian paper selling revolution.

now out your parasitic crap from indymedia!


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata

Zapata was partly influenced by an anarchist from Oaxaca, Mexico named Ricardo Flores Magón. The influence of Flores Magón on Zapata can be seen in the Zapatistas' Plan de Ayala, but even more noticeably in their slogan "Tierra y libertad" or "land and liberty", the title and maxim of Flores Magón's most famous work. Zapata's introduction to anarchism came via a local schoolteacher, Otilio Montaño Sánchez – later a general in Zapata's army, executed on 17 May 1917 – who exposed Zapata to the works of Peter Kropotkin and Flores Magón at the same time as Zapata was observing and beginning to participate in the struggles of the peasants for the land.

Si Zapata viviera con nosotros anduviera

DEMOCRACIA!, JUSTICIA!, LIBERTAD!

this two songs attached are dedicated at all the maquis out there -> hombre blaco hablar con lengua de serpiente. one of the many libertarian inspired songs blaring out of appo radio. and que vida mas diferente señor presidente, another.
people are sick of northern intellectuals manipulating their message like this. que se vayan TODXS. ENOUGHT!/YABASTA! to that too. wht did we learn from argentina?

can we not organise without leaders? prove it.

thnks 4 reading

>lefty neolberal gringos with no clue but plenty of mouth manage to twist and turn every single issue into a pro neoliberal left propaganda item.

i may be a lefty gringo but i aint no neoliberal! and it's hardly propaganda that i wrote, just a straight report of the day's events, i thought. if u disagree with anything in the piece, please tell me what, rather than just spew your hatred over the newswire.

>please pescao, fucking stop twisting the issues for your newspaper selling interests. like with the mapuche issue, stop sucking blood.

what am i twisting? and how am i twisting it? u have lots of accusations, but they're not backed up by anything, other than your apparent hatred (for what, i don't know). it's true that i work for a newspaper and that i have an interest in increasing its circulation, but i'm trying to do that by writing about grassroots issues that never see the light of day in the mainstream media. as for the mapuche piece that was published in the morning star (and reprinted on this site), apparently the mapuches were very happy with it, not that that appears to be of any concern to u.

>what part of appo dont you understand? i'd say none. what part of bellow to the left anticapitalist dont you understand?

i don't understand what u've just written!

>it doesnt matter how many times you and your cronies repeat it. yesterday was not a day of action for a president of the republic candidate. although he held a mock presidency take over play in zocalo in mexico.

where do i say that it was? in fact, the second par reads: "The international day of action, on the 96th anniversary of the Mexican revolution, was called to highlight the spate of murders, rapes and disappearances unleashed on the Oaxacan people since police and paramilitaries invaded the city at the end of October." nothing at all about a day of action in support of AMLO, so stop making this shit up, please! the only mention of AMLO is in relation to what corbyn said - that's what happened, he said it, it's a report.

>it was called for the grassroots fighters of atenco, with those of oaxaca, for the women that have been harrased by the PFPuckers. those are calls of the people bellow for and with the people bellow.

which i make pretty clear in the piece.

>then you vultures come ... WHAT PART OF APPO DONT YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND? WHY DO YOU KEEP TRYING TO BRING EVERYONE TO THINK THAT ALL SOUTHAMERICAN/LATINAMERICAN/INDOAMERICAN STRUGGLES ARE PRO "LEFT PRESIDENTS"?

again, where did i say that? it's clearly nonsense. but as u bring it up, u do seem to have a problem with the fact that quite a few latinamericans are struggling for pro-left presidents. again, that's a fact, whether u like it or not.

>WHO DO YOU WORK FOR? always trying to bring down grass roots organisation.

well, as you know, i work for the star. and as i said above, i'm always trying to raise the profile of grassroots orgs, having been in quite a few myself. so don't go making nasty accusations that have no basis in fact, please.

>please everyone take a look at the graffity all over oaxaca, that is what is real and how the people are talking but dont miss the very own APPO WEBSITE> you too pescao. and read it with the dictionary by your side, on the banner what part of :

>ser libre no es facil.nadie ha dicho que la lucha libertaria seria facil adelante compañeros. luchemos por una oaxaca mejor. A LAS BARRICADAS. cierra las calles abre caminos."

>"being free is not easy.noone said that the libertarian struggle would be easy compañeros. lets fight for a better oaxaca. take to the barricades. close the streets, open the ways.

sounds pretty good to me.

>OR/AND the other banner - do you think they are there to make you look cool?

>ESTE NO ES UN MOVIMIENTO DE LIDERES. ES*DE BASES.
con el pueblo hasta el final. por la caida de ulises ruiz.

>THIS IS NOT A MOVEMENT OF LEADER. IS*OF THE GRASSROOTS.
with the people to the end. for the fall of ulises ruiz.

again, i made that demand pretty clear in the piece.

>or you think people are stupid? that they dont mean it? like that makes us wonder what YOU mean and what not, what is just lefty drible to attrackt naive ppl. looking for an easy revolution song.

sorry, u lost me there.

>the people of atenco are for the other campaign and for autonomy read autonomia. do you understand the word? and anticapitalist? , and self(comunity) organised?.

good for them, let's support them in that struggle and fight for autonomy, anti-capitalism and self-organisation here as well.

>NOONE IS ASKING FOR A PRESIDENT. this colour or that colour of capitalist president.noone is calling for a new leader of a repressive PFP.

who said that they were? the only people demanding that AMLO is president are the 15 million mexicans whose votes were stolen from them - not something that concerns u, obviously. but nowhere in the piece did i say that the oaxacan people are calling for amlo to help them, or think that he can help them if he becomes president (although some of them probably do).

>on the contrary the other campaign, the ezln, the zapatistas and the delegate zero ( delegation, you see? a crucial part of horizontalism, direct democracy, equity, self managment, responsaility, autonomy... ) have called for grass roots organising aside whatever the executors of power are and repeated that all politicians are thieves at the service of capital. and if you knew anything about mexico and for example the video tapes scandals, you would know what am saying. bola de repressores. you know how many grassroots social activists amlo and his police jailed? krist!

hey, i'm not here to support AMLO, though personally i think that anyone who cares about democracy should be apalled that the PAN stole the election and should support the mexican people's right to vote for their own leader without imperialist interference and election fraud. not that this has anything to do with the piece that i wrote.

>what amoount of toss comes from this disingenuous power freaky manipulators is just sick.

lost me again.

>your unions and rethoric suck, your speech never meets the facts.

my union is ok, considering - they gave us a room on monday night to build solidarity for the oaxacan people, after all.

>please stay away from the movements we all belong to are trying to build and stop trying to prevent people to have a go at tryingt so that we can build other worlds without leaders without idols, particularly when they have been built of regurgitated prostituted ideals.

i'm not sure what movements u belong to and i would be happy to stay away from your anger and hatred, but i'm certainly not trying to prevent anyone from building another world without leaders or idols. what gave u the impression that i am? all i did was write about the repression against the oaxacan people and what people in britain are doing about it.

>what tome of ricardo flores magon, a teacher from oaxaca, a libertarian thinker from the times of zapata, anarchist at worse and HUGE influence in the teachers movement in oaxaca, have did you failed to buy in waterstones? what multicoloured book of collective decision making in indygenous culture and what cd of their recent struggles have you failed to entertein yourself with? because it is these filosophy in organisation and attack that inspires our mistakes in our ways in oaxaca and in Earth.

well, i'm glad your mistakes are inspired, at least!

>for you this appo poster, and a libertarian song from that lovely spanish civil war were your people made sure to destroy all freedom struggles to succeed.

my people? wtf are u talking about? i'm a libertarian socialist and can assure u that i had nothing to do with destroying freedom struggles in the spanish civil war - and nor did "my people," whoever the fuck they are.

>dont go making fucking trendy rich activist poser t-shirts with it and charge £10 for the uk bolivarian paper selling revolution.

random!

>now out your parasitic crap from indymedia!

if all u can do is attack other people with hate-fueled insults and smears to make yourself feel important, then it would appear that u are the parasite here.

>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata

>Zapata was partly influenced by an anarchist from Oaxaca, Mexico named Ricardo Flores Magón. The influence of Flores Magón on Zapata can be seen in the Zapatistas' Plan de Ayala, but even more noticeably in their slogan "Tierra y libertad" or "land and liberty", the title and maxim of Flores Magón's most famous work. Zapata's introduction to anarchism came via a local schoolteacher, Otilio Montaño Sánchez – later a general in Zapata's army, executed on 17 May 1917 – who exposed Zapata to the works of Peter Kropotkin and Flores Magón at the same time as Zapata was observing and beginning to participate in the struggles of the peasants for the land.

>Si Zapata viviera con nosotros anduviera

>DEMOCRACIA!, JUSTICIA!, LIBERTAD!

>this two songs attached are dedicated at all the maquis out there -> hombre blaco hablar con lengua de serpiente. one of the many libertarian inspired songs blaring out of appo radio. and que vida mas diferente señor presidente, another.

>people are sick of northern intellectuals manipulating their message like this. que se vayan TODXS. ENOUGHT!/YABASTA! to that too. wht did we learn from argentina?

again, please explain how i'm manipulating anyone's message. no? then stop talking crap.

>can we not organise without leaders? prove it.

i agree, but not if we attack and smear each other over minor ideological or strategic differences - or are we all supposed to think exactly like u?

>thnks 4 reading

it's been a pleasure, now would u be so kind as to respond to the points that i've made? like, for example, starting at the top, please explain how i've twisted what happened on monday or the issues behind it, for whatever (neoliberal, blood-sucking, anti-grassroots) reasons. if you're willing to attack and smear me so readily, u should be prepared to defend your words as well. looking forward to it!

and before u say that people weren't protesting against electoral fraud, have a look at the photos on  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/11/356562.html which show a placard reading "democracy in mexico is a myth" as well as a call-out notice on  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/11/356290.html which has "NO TO ELECTORAL FRAUD!" in the first line.

also u might want to see the resolution that we passed at the hands off venezuela conference which proposed the demo in the first place -  http://www.handsoffvenezuela.org/hands_off_venezuela_resolutions.htm - it starts off: "Conference expresses its solidarity with the struggle of the people of Mexico and particularly of Oaxaca for their rights, against electoral fraud and repression."

now, u personally might not be against electoral fraud, but the majority of the people on monday are. after all, u don't have to be for al gore or john kerry to be against bush stealing the elections. and, as i understand it, the APPO are protesting against URO's electoral fraud as well. hope this clears up any confusion.

I've noticed that there are loads of ads by the mexican tourist office currently showing on bus shelters, buses and maybe other places. Would be tourists should be told the real story of what goes on in that country.

> also u might want to see the resolution that we passed at the hands off venezuela
> conference which proposed the demo in the first place - > http://www.handsoffvenezuela.org/hands_off_venezuela_resolutions.htm - it starts off:
> "Conference expresses its solidarity with the struggle of the people of Mexico and
> particularly of Oaxaca for their rights, against electoral fraud and repression."

You're way off there, the demo was proposed in the first place after the previous demonstrations on 30th October and 2nd November by the participants, and as a response to the Zapatista callout. None of the demonstrations were in support of 'AMLO', Jeremy Corbyn or any other authoritarian leftist. This is why there was a large banner reading "PRI=PAN=PRD=repression", not "AMLO no se va!".

>You're way off there, the demo was proposed in the first place after the previous demonstrations on 30th October and 2nd November by the participants, and as a response to the Zapatista callout.

fair enough, although the "participants" apparently didn't tell anyone else about it. that was the point of having a solidarity meeting, so that we could coordinate future actions.

>None of the demonstrations were in support of 'AMLO', Jeremy Corbyn or any other authoritarian leftist. This is why there was a large banner reading "PRI=PAN=PRD=repression", not "AMLO no se va!".

again, nobody is saying that the demo was in support of AMLO (or corbyn, for that matter), though there have been demos for AMLO outside the mexican embassy recently. not this one, though, and i certainly didn't say that it was, so please don't put words in my mouth! classic strawman argument, it's pathetic.

to bill posters: great idea, it's a perfect platform to subvert, any ideas for stickers?

> fair enough, although the "participants" apparently didn't tell anyone else about it.

Bullshit.
 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/11/356003.html

> again, nobody is saying that the demo was in support of AMLO (or corbyn, for that matter),
> though there have been demos for AMLO outside the mexican embassy recently.
> not this one, though, and i certainly didn't say that it was, so please don't put words in
> my mouth! classic strawman argument, it's pathetic.

You implied as much in your original post, "Campaigners then regrouped at the National Union of Journalists headquarters in King's Cross, where left MP Jeremy Corbyn spoke about the urgent need for solidarity with the Mexican people.", when in fact most people at the picket wanted nothing to do with the odious Corbyn.

>> fair enough, although the "participants" apparently didn't tell anyone else about it.

>Bullshit.
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/11/356003.html

yeah, posted on the 14th, 10 days after our conference passed its motion. also, scroll down a bit and u will see: "DOWN WITH ELECTORAL FRAUD!"

>> again, nobody is saying that the demo was in support of AMLO (or corbyn, for that matter),
>> though there have been demos for AMLO outside the mexican embassy recently.
>> not this one, though, and i certainly didn't say that it was, so please don't put words in
>> my mouth! classic strawman argument, it's pathetic.

>You implied as much in your original post, "Campaigners then regrouped at the National Union of Journalists headquarters in King's Cross, where left MP Jeremy Corbyn spoke about the urgent need for solidarity with the Mexican people.", when in fact most people at the picket wanted nothing to do with the odious Corbyn.

how on earth does what i wrote imply that the demo was in support of AMLO? u're just making that up. campaigners DID regroup at the NUJ, where corbyn DID speak about the need for solidarity - those are facts. maybe not all of the protesters went, but lots of them did. so, enough of your strawmen - and stop trying to censor the facts just because they don't suit your narrow political agenda!

I would have thought that a little bit of self-congratulation all round is in order rather than all this slinging accusations back and forth. From any point of view both of Monday's events were very positive. The fact that they brought together activists with different perspectives and methods is a good thing, not unlike what's happening in Mexico. When you have a success like this, which involves collaborating with people you disagree with you need to start working out how to be even more successful next time. That might even mean working with the "odious" "authoritarian" (eh????) Jeremy Corbyn.

> yeah, posted on the 14th, 10 days after our conference passed its motion.

It may surprise you to know that there are still some people reading Indymedia who did not attend your conference, nor read the minutes.

> also, scroll down a bit and u will see: "DOWN WITH ELECTORAL FRAUD!"

Yeah, which is what caused people to bring the start of the already announced demo forward to avoid it being hijacked.

>> yeah, posted on the 14th, 10 days after our conference passed its motion.

>It may surprise you to know that there are still some people reading Indymedia who did not attend your conference, nor read the minutes.

indeed. and there are probably some of our members who don't read indymedia. so what? my point was that we clearly didn't know about your plans when we called the demo at our conference, because u hadn't announced it yet. it's a shame that neither of us knew if or what the other group was planning - that was the point of the meeting, to help co-ordinate future actions, to work together. as we understood it, u were keeping things pretty vague because of what happened last time. hands off venezuela have been picketing the mexican embassy against electoral fraud and the repression of the oaxacan people since september. we were very happy to hear that u might be there as well on monday. who the hell cares which group proposed this particular demo in the first place, anyway?

>> also, scroll down a bit and u will see: "DOWN WITH ELECTORAL FRAUD!"

>Yeah, which is what caused people to bring the start of the already announced demo forward to avoid it being hijacked.

glad u brought it forward, 6pm is a stupid time to start an embassy picket anyway, most of the staff have gone home by then. we said 5pm because lots of us were working on that day and corbyn had to leave early.

but what do u mean about us trying to hijack your demo? how exactly were we doing that? by telling people to get there early? u clearly are either very paranoid or very arrogant. no-one is trying to hijack your demo or your movement, least of all us. we're trying to raise the issue of solidarity with oaxaca, just like u are. some of us have comrades out there, some of us see this as part of other solidarity work we do, some of us just want to do something to help the oaxacan people. so what if some of us have slightly different politics, if some of us are liberals, or socialists, or greens, or marxists, or luddites, or hippies, or even bolivarians, so what?

and all this is all over such a bogus issue in the first place, about separating support for the APPO and support for the AMLO-supporters' democratic right to have their votes counted. it's not about AMLO or the PRD - most of us are personally very critical about them both. it's about their supporters, all 15 million of them, who had their election victory robbed from them by the very same bastards who are repressing the oaxcans. incidentally, the mexican ruling class are very keen to separate support for these two issues as well.

so, why exactly do u want to create differences and splits where they don't exist and alienate everyone who doesn't think just like u do? i can't imagine that's what the oaxacan people want. as many people said at the meeting, we need a broad, democratic forum in which we can all work together - why do u have such a problem with that? if u don't want to work with us, fine, but don't smear and sabotage us just because u don't agree with us.

It seems that some so-called supporters of APPO in London do not support the struggle against the electoral fraud. However, APPO calls a massive day of action against Calderon and Ulises Ruiz on December 1. What do these so-called supporters of APPO in London support of APPO?

check this out and keep it cool.
 http://www.asambleapopulardeoaxaca.com/boletines/?p=109




Keep it cool

lovely to see that we've now so soundly defeated the capitalists that we can devote our time and energy to fighting amongst ourselves...

in all seriousness though, it's quite sad to see what indymedia has degenerated into over the past five or six years... my indy collective used to get criticised on the global lists for deleting content-less personal attacks from the newswire to try to keep our site a functional tool for the local activist community (no, it wasn't in the uk...it was in a country where leftist infighting has consequences that are far more serious than just wasting all of our time)... and i'm becoming more and more convinced that indymedia needs a serious rethink of its structure and ways of working if it is to be anything more than a forum for bickering...

i think that everyone that has posted on this topic agrees that there are issues around which solidarity from the uk could be helpful to mexico - can we focus on that please and not on who's authoritarian, who's sectarian, blah blah blah? (we've all heard it a million times already, and are getting quite bored of it...) if there are issues that you are more or less interested in supporting, then i suggest you devote more or less of your time doing actual work around those issues. any time you spend on indymedia attacking people whose choice of issues to do actual work on differs from yours is a waste of time, full stop.

un abrazo pa' tod@s...
-belen

Thanks Luna Roja,

Your comments really cleared things up, I was just passing through London and came to the demo thinking that it was in support of the Zapatista call out and in solidarity with the people of Oaxaca, then went to the meeting afterwards (thinking that the it was all the same thing) to be fed a load of socialist bullshit. I agree with your comments and felt like all the events that have been happening in Mexico were totally confused and that the struggle in Oaxaca was wrongly linked in with the fraudulent elections in Mexico.

In support of self governance...

Dandi

hi everyone, i went to the demo outide the embassy on monday night to support the people in oaxaca after seeing their plight at rampart on a film.I was asked to go the demo by someone who had sincerity in their action and was given information on a leaflet.Afterwards there was a meeting at the nuj which I understood was about how I could help in a practical way.Someone at the front (a socialist type) got a little carried away and ended up with a rabble rousing type speech which in my opinion had no place there unless he has experienced first hand the type of full on violence the people of mexico are experiencing ...things are not going to change with speechmaking and then a pint down the pub, thats what holds action in a limbo.Stop it!!! I felt duped as I was not intending to go to a marxist/socialist hyjaking get together, drop the comrade crap and wake up, that was then and this is now, as far as I understand it the people of oaxcaca arent looking for a fucking leader, theyve found it in themselves and are paying a high price.Cast your mind back to what the women in that meeting were saying and take note,- informative,direct and sincere -that's what I went there for and thanks to the woman who translated the film even though she was rudely interupted by someone who wasnt paying attention.
I would like to attend a meeting on oaxaca without a socialist agenda. thankyou b.b

look b.b, it was a public meeting, organised by hands off venezuela, with jeremy corbyn as a guest speaker. he was introduced, he spoke, we showed a movie, it was translated, a kind of argument broke out, there was a general discussion, everybody got to speak, it was entirely democratic and open, there was no "line" or ideology being pushed, most people who spoke about socialism got roundly criticised for doing so and it was all done in a mostly comradely way. an email list was put together, which is now being used. everyone was given ample opportunity to contribute and help develop an action plan.

i'm sorry that u felt duped, but what really did u expect? if u want to attend a meeting without a "socialist agenda," whatever that is, then organise one yourself! it's not hard, just fix a time and place and spread the word. the mailing list has been set up, after all. use it:  http://handsoffvenezuela.org/mailman/listinfo/oaxaca_handsoffvenezuela.org

why u start talking about oaxacan people wanting leaders, i don't know. who said that? when? where? it's total strawman stuff. just because we're against electoral fraud doesn't mean we're for AMLO. how many times do i have to say it? of course we must be informative, direct and sincere, but we must also have respect and tolerance for diversity of opinion and tactics, otherwise none of us have any right to talk about what APPO stands for.

this campaign is completely open and democratic, anyone who has the time and energy to take the initiative with it is free to do so. hands off has no interest in taking it over or anything like that, we've got enough on our plate with venezuela. our delegation for the election leaves this week and there are plenty of things i'd rather be doing than continuing this tedious discussion. we voted for it at our conference, but i think that a little more action and a little less sniping would be a good thing all round. there's plenty to be organised for the demo on the 1st - Do It Yourself!

It seems from all these comments that there is a desire to have a truly open place to exchange information and opinions without the constraints of political dogma or vested interests.Ther is much to talk about!!!!!!!
Oaxaca has put itself forward, to Mexico and the world, heroically and openly to challenge its own oppressions and injustices in an eloquent,non party political and organised manner.

This is a movement that deserves both our utmost respect and support,but most importantly(if we are not actually there)a clear and non confrontational engagement with what is at stake here
.
Let us not freak out over the fact that many do not understand what is really happening here.

At least people are trying to engage on some level.
Of course if that iresults in an uninformed and factually inaccurate picture of what is going on, then that must be adressed and challenged.

The teachers strike was over FAIR pay(Oaxaca,as one of the 3 poorest states in Mexico, gives its teachers less salary than the more affluent states.Of course, a poorer community probably needs more invesment, but of course..... -there are three pay bands in Mexico for teachers,all reflecting states wealth( as in : richer state=higher salary) and teachers in Oaxaca were protesting this illogical system and therefore their placing in the lowest salary band.
They were/are also asking for better provisions for the children and students of Oaxaca-school meals, footwear,pencils, books etc....
(Many schools in Oaxaca are not provided with even the bare minimum of resources, and the teachers,who are very much at the heart of many of the communities,particularily in rural areas, feel frustrated,impeded and disempowered by this lack of basic investment)They have been campaigning peacefully on these issues for 26 years.

This year, on 14 June,a couple weeks into theuir protest, the state police launched a brutal and cowardly attack on the teachers of Oaxaca and their family members who were camped in the streets of the centre of Oaxaca .
This attack was started at dawn,whilst everybody was sleeping.Military helicopters fired teargas,rained grenades and aimed rifles on primary school teachers,university professors and their family members.Many were injured, but there were no fatalities.
This brutal act,an affront to any civil society,was the catalyst ,almost instantly, for mass civil mobilisation to protect the state of Oaxacas teacher and to demand the removal of the governor of Oaxaca,Ulises Ruiz Ortiz (due to the shameful catalogue of expropriation of public funds, of the cultural,environmental and spiritual damage to the people and land of Oaxaca and of the human rights abuses against and illegal imprisonment and murder of Oaxacan people.

The APPO(Popular Assembly of the People of Oaxaca)was formed,organically and as a practical imperative, in the days following the attack of June 14.
So many women and men of all ages came from the mountains,from the coast, from the furthest reaches of the state of Oaxaca had come both in support of their teachers and also to voice their own concerns about numerous abuses and injustices commited by the state against the people and the land of Oaxaca.

The Megamarcha on 16 June started 5 km outside of Oaxaca centre and went on for at least 6 hours,in sometimes kneedeep torrential rain.At least 300,000 people participated.
And they were of all ages and also of all backgrounds,although there was a majority of the majority of course! (Oaxaca is at least 70%indiginous people, and the principal bilingual state in Mexico )
From this critical point, the people of Oaxaca used all their refined and long serving communitarian and organisational skills to formulate an united front against future attack and for the formal establishment of a new, horizontal,non political,fully inclusive participatory democracy in Oaxaca.The APPO is also anti imperialism in ALL its forms(and there are many forms....).

The state of Oaxaca has been attacked not only by its own governor, but by Canadian, European and US business,by manipulative social laboricide through the migrations to the US,by the illegal and irreversible polllution of maize crops by foreign biotech companies,by the horrific potential enslavement proposed by the PPP(Plan Panama Puebla)

There are many reasons why the insurrection in Oaxaca is of global importance.the list could go on for a long time!
What is important is that people outside of Oaxaca are able to meet up and share their knowledge and ideas in order to take this struggle for justice,autonomy and integrity forward.
We are lucky not to be constrained by barbed wire and teargas here and we should do our utmost to live up to our liberty,instead of trying to stimulate confrontation and dissent.

There are many people every day being kidnapped and dissapeared from the streets of Oaxaca without arrest warrants,without having commited any crime,some of them people aged 16 or 17 years of age.
These people are not accounted for.their friends and families are trying to find out where they might be.A number of people have been known to be physically and psychologically tortured.

The majority of the dissapeared and detained are not registered in the municipal jails,yet they are imprisoned somewhere. and they need our support.
International recognition of the threat to the lives and freedom of these men and women, and pressure on all relevant institutions,both international and non govermental, is imperative
With a well coordinated demand,we can, hopefully, secure the release of these Oaxacan citizens.
People are being threatened and kidnapped not just in Oaxaca city but in the istmo,
in puebla,in DF..........
This is how they are trying to intimidate the people !!!
It is not making people submit or retreat, but it is critical that these people are accounted for and released immediatly.
If they are not, there will be a global demand on a scale that the government will not want to contend with.

Although there is much else of interest to discuss regarding Oaxaca,it is important to recognise this reality.

Even though these disapperences(being surruptitious and therefore media-invisible)) do not produce dramatic photo/video opportunities for the international press,they do exist!!
they are the people who are truly suffering at the "barricades of Oaxaca'.
The barricades that must be defended extend beyond the centro of Oaxaca!
barricades of Oaxaca are ultimately those of defiant life and creativity, of flowers,of human determination,of wood and stones, of catapult and shopping cart to defend against those of the barbed steel death cord of dronelike oppression of ALL personal liberty by the order of the morally bankrupt, materially corrupt institutional MINORITY....

If we can show,through the conduit of the Mexican Embassy and Human rights organisations here in London, that we are aware of these horrific and illegal injustices,and that we know and present to them all the names and details of those dissapeared and that we demand their immediate release, we are practicing solidarity.

Beyond that, all those who are interested in presenting a demand to the embassy for the release of all those detained, and discussing the current (and past and future!!) situation in Oaxaca are welcome to meet on Monday at 7pm at the Windmill on Mill Street W1S,just round the corner from the Mexican embassy.....

¡¡¡¡¡¡¡VIVA OAXACA!!!!!!!!!!!¡¡¡¡¡¡¡VIVA COMO !!!!!!!¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡VIVA APPO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡VIVA VIDA!!!!!!!!

Hi there,

1) I guy called Elias has posted a link to the "Plan de Accion de la APPO" (APPO action plan)  http://www.asambleapopulardeoaxaca.com/boletines/?p=109
if you click on it and scroll down you'll find that on the 1st of December APPO has called for a "march of one million people to make sure that URO leaves and show our rejection of Calderon". That is, APPO tries to unite the struggle against electoral fraud with their own demands.

2) Most mexican to whom I spoke at the picket on Monday, who came from Cambridge, Norwich or Manchester, where there to protest against calderon as well as against the repression of Oaxaca.

3) The first picket I attended at the Mexican embassy in relation to Oaxaca was on the 16th of September, it was called by Socialist Appeal ( http://www.socialist.net/content/view/2435/31/) and supported by Hands off Venezuela, or the other way around, I do not know. In the report that appeared the next day on Morning Star ( http://www.handsoffvenezuela.org/amlo_chavez_fraude_picket.htm) , unfortunately there is no metion of Oaxaca, but if you look the photos will see placards which read somethign like "Solidarity with the People of Mexico" and "APPO and Militant are not terrorist". I remember that in the speeches the struggle in Oaxaca was a reference point.

4) The meeting at NUJ, in my opinion, was very interesting. There were at least 40 people, amongst them many Mexicans, something that I had not seen before. There was a wide range of people from many political different backgrounds and tendencies. Jeremy Corbyn spoke, there was a film and then that guy, who was me and I do apologise for it, rudely interrupted the woman who was translating.

I felft that she was omiting, not necessarily in a concioius fashion, some of APPO's political aims, which are not reduced only to the removal of Ulises Ruiz, but stretch to a new political settlement, a new constitution (the refoundation of the State institutions), all of which they said on the film, and also the way in which they see themselves as acting within the spirit of the current state constitution (what was also expressedly said on the film). In fact the APPO is also using legal methods to get its demands met, like for example, the appeal to the Mexican Senate for the removal of URO on terms of ungovernability, (although this was not expressedly said on the film).

It seems that so far, according to the film and independently of what we might want or think, that it is not on the perspective of the APPO to establish itself indefinitately as the new organ of power in Oaxaca, but rather that is a tool in their struggle for their demands. What will happen in the future we do not know. I would like it to become the real power in Oaxaca and to link up with other similar forums around the country, which are already appearing on different points of Mexico, but this will depend of the political orientation and strategies develop by the different movements that are sweeping the country.

5) Everybody spoke whatever they wanted. I myself found it very democratic. There was a huge range of opinions expressed. It was agreed to call for a new day of action on the 1st of December and to create a committe that would coordiante the solidarity with Mexico amongst all groups and campaings and a email list was put together.

6) In my opinion I only see positive stuff on what came out of Monday meeting.

7) By the way, it is obvious that socialist do have an agenda, I myself have an agenda which can be summed up on this: "The building of international socialism", but it is not so obvious that Zapatistas or anarchist do not have one. In any case, whatever our perspectives and agendas the main point is to build up solidarity with the struggles in Mexico and I think ,and all the people who left their name on the list may have thought so too, otherwise why should bother on being on the list, that monday was a good starting point.