In addition, wars have displaced or turned 40 million people into refugees. This has led to exploitation of chilldren through sex, engagement in warfare. You have people like the son of Margaret Thatcher, Sir Margaret Thatcher knighted by the stupid divine despot of those stupid people in Britain who recognise a system of loyalty. This noble character in the long line of British rule has been trying to wage wars in Africa in order to gain the measly millions or billions he will get from killing, maiming and destroying the planet through the assistance of honourable SAS soliders. A few bad apples, I think not, look at the behaviour of soldiers in Iraq and sadly we do not even know what they are doing in Afghanistan.

Read it both ways.

They are essentials of Civilisation.

It must be stressed that the majority of killing in the cases you mentioned was carried out by members of ethnic militias and not real soldiers. The intervention of NATO peacekeepers in both Bosnia and Kosovo saved lives and stopped the militias.

Politicians give the orders, soldiers commit the crimes and we sit there and let it all happen. We are also partly to blame for the disgrace of a world we live in today. I can say with my hand on my heart that ive been to protests in many cities for many reasons and still I have done nothing coz nothing has changed. People still vote for murderers soldiers are still honoured and admired by the majority of their 'fellow countrymen/women' and wars have not stopped. People should show the soldiers that they do not have the peoples support in what their doing, that they are fucking murderers and that they are not wanted by the public here or abroad (wherever the fuck they are sent to) instead of holding banners like 'bring our boys back home' and '100 of our boys dead' '100 isnt enough' is what the placards should read. Why is it that when some1 like say that dickhead Ian Hunter kidnaps and kills two little girls, hes a creep a murderer and should be punished for the rest of his life, yet when soldiers bomb a country killing thousands (not to add those who will die from the depleted uranium) invade a country therefore oppressing people) and while on the ground shoot at and kill innocent civillians, they are suddenly in need of our support. This is hypocricy to the extreme and it is one of the reasons the anti war movement has gone horribly wrong. No support should be given to those who order the crimes and those who carry them out.

It is inaccurate to blame soldiers for wars, inaccurate and dangerous. It is always politicians who are to blame, invariably. Since you mention Rwanda you should realise most of the murderers there were ordinary civilians and that is one 'war' where an international peace-keeping force (of soldiers) could have lessened the suffering, had the world cared to intervene in time. You are quite right though that in past-times it was soldiers who did the dying for us, whereas nowadays they tend to slaughter more civilians than soldiers.

Don't blame the army for Iraq and Afghanistan - the killers are the suited and safe New Labour traitors that safely live amongst us, profiteering from war. Our soldiers are for the most part victims of the war as much as the innocents they have helped kill. If you want to revenge the innocents, then the soldiers shouldn't be your target - kill Tony Blair or anyone who voted for that mass-murderer and then you may have some right to judge.

Sorry Danny I agree with almost everything you write on Indymedia but not this time. If not for the soldiers, The people who voted for the wars would not be able to carry out their plans. When does "I'm only following orders" stop being a good excuse and starts becoming something used to pass the blame on. Should we therefore start looking at all state mechanisms in the same way? Do we look at the cops who killed De Menenzes in the same light? Afterall they were just following orders too. What about all those (police) who randomly stop and search (Harrass) people just for looking foreign. Or the ones who shot that man in the leg after a raid, or the ones who kick the shit out of protestors to terrorise them into not protesting again. When should im only doing my job become i need to have some common sense. The truth is all these mechanisms (be it the army, the police, mi6 etc) dont care about the consequences that their 'job' will have on others coz they are the ones in the powerful position. They have the tanks when the others have stones, they have the guns when the others are holding flags and banners. Only in wars where theyd be facing an equal enemy (Vietnam) did soldiers come back and protest and thats coz they were dropping like flies. For anyone to say that the soldiers are unaware of the suffering they cause is ridiculous as they see it first hand, they know it more than we do. Not to support the soldiers is not dangerous. To act 'patriotic' is dangerous. Every1 shut their mouths after the Iraq war had started. 'Time to shut up now and support our boys' Thats disgusting. Are our boys more important than the people theyre killing? We've gotta stop this crap. Stop crying for the paid killers of the state and start crying for the people that really didnt deserve to be killed.

I'm sure many soldiers did vote for Tony Blair or parties like conservatives/lib dems who voted for the Iraq war in the case of the conservatives, and the Afghanistan and Yugoslavia war in case of the lib dems ( who are just as bad)

Dear dot dot dot, (ellipses ?)

Even I don't agree with half the stuff I say here so thanks for the compliment, but I do like your posts too and so I hope you reconsider this one point.

"'Time to shut up now and support our boys' Thats disgusting."

Okay, but where does disgust get us ? Angry-letter writing at best. Before the war lots of military families came to peace-protests and they did stop coming for that reason once the war started, you are right. I blame the media for that, not them - look at the newspaper and TV coverage at the time. Now they are returning again, as speakers, as bereaved parents and as damn fine activists. However much the rest of us feel sympathy for the Iraqi and Afghan victims of the war, very few of us have lost someone we love, and that is a motivating experience. Anything we can do to encourage their dissent before they get sent abroad to kill and die for oil has to be worthwhile.

You can't blame these wars on the soldiers. The soldiers are just the wee kids that used to hang about on your street corners, who now are filling up the grave-yards and mental wards. I went to take some delaying action when they were first getting shipped out, and I couldn't bring myself to. I saw parents hugging gormless infants and crying, and I ended up greeting too.

My health got fucked when I was still young ( my niece could beat me up now) or else I would've ended up a soldier, perhaps you aren't cursed with my warrior tendencies but lots of my pals are now servicemen. I do feel sympathy for them too. They really don't know all we know about the world, they have been lied to since infancy and haven't been able to educate themselves. Sure, you get evil soldiers, but you get evil folk in any profession. Sure, I'd like a world without armies but we still have armies and need to deal with that. You should remember - and publicise - the fact that once you sign up for the army, you not only sign away your normal human rights, you also are violently conditioned to obey orders by reflex. Bear in mind military dissent was one of the prime factors in ending the Vietnam invasion - even if you don't respect the soldiers then please don't alienate them from the peace-movement or you may be inadvertently extending the war.

Of course I feel a general anarchistic contempt for anyone who follows any order, and anyone who imposes their will by force of arms, especially the top-brass but even most soldiers hate the top-brass. In these wars though the top-brass vigorously opposed the invasions ( vigorously by their own normally docile standards). There were more than a few top generals appearing on chat-shows nd the like condemning any invasion that had no mandate or exit-strategy. That has never happened before as far as I know. Talk to any soldier privately and respectfully and they will tell you that they don't want to be there, but it part of their 'stoicism' to go along with whatever the politicians order. In a way, this is a good thing, the alternative being a military dictatorship. Although I for one would prefer a peaceful military dictatorship to our violent sham democracy.

And yes, I do extend this out to policemen. I never ( rarely) kick and fight against cops. If I am fighting them then I'm not fighting my true enemies, my chosen enemies - the psychopaths commonly respected as politicians.



"Are our boys more important than the people theyre killing?"
No. I realise they are valid targets for the people who are trying to free their homelands from foreign occupation and exploitation. I realise they are the oppressors there. They aren't the root cause of the problem though and for me, I'd rather murder or target for action any ever-so-innocent Labour party supporter than any soldier. The soldiers and cops are just tools that the real killers wield. Me, I'm gunning for Blair and co. I'm heading out now on a 'secret' action ( ha, as if I'm important enough to worry about being intercepted ) but I think this is an important point and will write more later if it is allowed to stand by the IM folk. I would rather change your mind on this point than any other.

love and retribution,

I recognise what Danny has been saying, the innocents as he so calls them are like some UK personnel and only one UK soldier I know of, US soldiers who left the army because they did not want to kill, torture and participate in something they knew was wrong. Do I want to cry over the death of a solider, no, as that is one less soldier killing innocent people, waging an illegal war, participating in an illegal invasion.

There are many book

I also know people who use to have the views some of your friends did - but guess what they woke up to something a bit courageous, its called humanity and what should be the real civilisation, it is a society with a high level of culture and civilisation. If you really think these soldiers are innocent, naives, why can that not apply to the Labour activists? Aren't they fed the same old rubbish, falling for the same lines?

I think you have to say war is wrong
Dead soldiers engaging in illegal battles have no right to sympathy - they have gone into a life of killing or being killed knowingly. I do not wish their death but do not ask me to understand their plight

Fortunately I do not know anyone who wanted to join the army - so I do not understand but I just see it as a life of state operated machinery working against liberty and democracy.

 http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A81506

6. Our Role in the Genocide in Rwanda
Awards to: David Corn, AlterNet.org; Ellen Ray, Covert Action Quarterly AlterNet.org columnist David Corn examines a low point of Bill Clinton's foreign policy: the alleged U.S. collusion in the genocide of more than half a million Tutsi people by the Hutus in Rwanda. Corn noticed a modest news story in The New York Times which said that the Organization for African Unity had issued a report critical of the United States -- especially of Secretary of State Madeleine Albright -- for handling the Rwandan genocide so poorly. "But the story did not go into details," Corn wrote, "[even though] the report demolished the Clinton assertion that he had not been fully aware of the genocide when it had been under way." Ellen Ray's lengthy article about the Congo in Covert Action Quarterly echoed this condemning assertion.

Other mass killings have occurred during Rwanda's brutal history. However, under the 1948 U.N. Genocide Convention, once a genocide is recognized, the nations of the world are obligated to prevent the killings and to punish the murderers. A story that strongly suggests that our government knew about this horrible rampage, and might have prevented it, deserves significant media followup.3. Army Propaganda Team Worked at CNN
Award to: Alexander Cockburn, Counterpunch The corporate media has long relied on government spinmeisters to produce news during times of war. The army has entire units of men, called "psychological operations" groups, devoted in part to spreading information and propaganda to news organizations. From them, media outlets get insider, official information without having to do much reporting.

But the military took the principle way too far when it actually placed army psy-ops personnel at CNN's TV, radio, and satellite bureaus during the Kosovo war. Through a program called "Training With Industry," the army stationed five psy-ops soldiers as interns at CNN's Southeast bureau. Later, in a closed-door army symposium, a psy-ops commander said the cooperation with CNN was a textbook example of the kind of ties the American army wants to have with the media.

"The U.S. Army ... confirmed to me that military personnel have been involved in news production at CNN's newsdesks," said Abe De Vried, who first broke the story in a respected Dutch newspaper. "I found it simply astonishing. These kind of close ties with the army are, in my view, completely unacceptable for any serious news organization."

As award-winner Alexander Cockburn speculated, "It could be that CNN was the target of a psy-ops penetration and is still too naive to figure out what was going on."

...with your constructive and moving comments. Last year I shared a station waiting room (at 3 am) with a skinny, shivering, terrified boy who had just who had just come back from Basra. He had seen his army mates shoot an unarmed motorcyclist in the back ten times.

He had only joined because there were no jobs in his area, his step-father had been in the army and - most importantly - they had offered him training. Now, he could not get out. Young army recruits have been know to break their own arms to get out of the contracts the army stitch them into without them realising it. Soldiers of all ranks are already killing themselves in despair over Iraq. And now, they are going to get a life sentence if they desert.

The poor, the young, the naive and the otherwise vulnerable have always been used as cannon fodder. When they return, traumatised by the horror, they are thrown on the scrap heap.

Most people in this world are fed imperialist propaganda. The difference is most people do not choose to pick up a gun to defend it. I sympathise that you might have friends who joined the army and u know them to be good kids. No1 said that every1 who joined the army did it coz theyre evil. However what I am stressing is the danger of patriotism in combination with the purpose served by the soldiers. Whether we like it or not we know that the soldiers are the weapon of the oppressor. I do not place the largest ammount of blame on them just incase u thought i did and we must allocate responsibility fairly and the politicians are the ones most responsible. I truly believe that a soldier could change his mind about a matter such as the war. A politician will never. He/she has planned this war years before and knows exactly how itl benefit them. However you cannot deny that the politicians plans could never be carried out without the army. Falklands, Bosnia, Iraq twice Afghanistan Yugoslavia, we all watched as the returning troops were greeted as heroes with the British flag waving high and proud even though they had in fact imposed the will of the imperialists on other lands. My question to you is simple. would you agree to go kill others just because you cant find a job. Should we then also sympathise with crack dealers who are responsible for the deaths of hundreds every year just coz there is unemployment. Also have you considered that if there were a popular uprising and the people of the UK decided to put an end to the current system that the people u dont c as ur enemy (army police dept etc) would be in the front line prepared to use any means necessary to protect their employers.Ud have to make a choice there. Fight or leave. This is their role in society and they will always play that role no matter if it means killing 'their own people' or others. Justice to the Iraqi people, or De Menenzes, or the innocents at Belmarsh will never be served if we never view these people as our/the worlds enemies.All that will happen is that wel turn a blind eye to reality.

I'm back. Mission succesful despite advertising it here in advance - I guess I'm not brown enough to warrant MI5 attention despite my best efforts. Too damn white to register on their radar, or too unambitious perhaps.

Why should we support 'our' soldiers? Some of us obviously want to blame them for following obviously unjust and illegal orders. I can see that argument. The politicians would be powerless fools if we all just ignored them. We all agree that the politicians are the root cause of the wars don't we ? We seem to agree that. For me, that is enough people to blame, to punish. Actually, I'd add the weapons manufacturers to that list, but even then only the real profiteers, not the minions.

We could blame those who follow these illegal orders, I know. I've thought about it, I've thought about it quite a bit and I just can't. For where do you draw the line ? If you want to extend it further then every British tax-payer deserves to die for the deaths that they have funded and permitted. And if you follow that path, then it makes sense to start with your own family. My sister said once 'Lets bomb them before they bomb us'. I was furious. I never spoke to her for a year, such an ignorant and hateful comment - but I couldn't kill her nor would I want to live if I had. I blame myself for her stupidity.

So we draw the line somewhere. Me, I know servicemen, I love some of them like family. Ignorant fuckers to a man to be sure, but innocent ignorant fuckers incapable of evil. And while I've been campaigning to encourage military dissent I've also met perfectly enlightened soldiers or ex-services folk who know exactly what is happening but find themselves in a position they can't withdraw from. Should I wish them dead ? I can't.

I think some of us forget or fail to imagine what it is like to be a soldier, why anyone would willingly go to Iraq or Afghanistan. Think of it this way, say your twenty best friends were being sent to a war-zone against their will and you were smart enough to know how not to go - you'd still go, you'd go to protect your friends. Enough people would at least. And yes, we should be encouraging them not to, but you don't encourage anyone by demonising them.

I have been campaigning this way. I think I may have stopped one young doley from signing up. If I'm lucky I've stopped a few more and perhaps persuaded or at least encouraged a few more to quit. That's nothing though really, is it ? And I can tell you the job has been made much harder by the handful of unthinking folk who shout abuse at soldiers without offering any support or encouragement. If you want to help me out here, then there are a few fairly obvious things to do that'd help, I could list them if you are stuck for ideas. The best thing you can do to help is to bite your lip before condemning them. Short of killing Tony Blair of course.

I'm anti-war but no pacifist either - there are things I'd fight for, there are things I'd kill for despite the orders of my emminently more sensible succession of girlfriends.

"If you really think these soldiers are innocent, naives, why can that not apply to the Labour activists? "
For a start, don't call them activists or you'll just make me angry. Truth is though I don't really know why I can't forgive them, I haven't ever considered it before (thanks for making me think). Maybe it's cos I'm at heart an anarchist who detests anyone who would govern me without my permission. I loathe all politicians, I just do. I don't hate traffic wardens or journalists or tax-men or soldiers or cops or any of the folk most people hate so maybe I just have to hate someone. I do hate them though, deeply, madly, truly. I see them as lower than paedophiles. If I ever stand for any election then you all have my permission to kill me painfully. Being rational though, I think it is because they give the orders. I can forgive people who follow orders, albeit with a certain smug sense of superiority, but I can never forgive those who give the orders or who aspire to 'lead'. These are people whose deaths would just make the world a bit lighter. Excuse me now, I have to punch a wall.

Ah, t, just read your comment. Listen, if everyone who hates or loves me here chips in a quid then I'll go off to Iraq tommorow. I'd rather die free there than listen to another story like that from the safety of my luxurious bed-room.

Thanks everyone - it is good to air these views ... you cannot normally discuss these topics in this way ... I have understood that I will have limitations as I do not know soldiers ... that does not mean I have to think what they do is right. But one thing, did come to my mind, there was one US soldier who was constantly beating himself up after seeing children die and feeling guilty ... I knew then I had no right to judge him and that I only wished he could forgive himself for he had found his heart and himself and it was now that he wanted to hurt himself. It was very sad ... I truly hope that time comes for every soldier.

It has been good to read all these views and understood the different ways we all want the same things.

I disagree with hating politicans though, there are other professions which should be on the list, I hate anybody who has imposed authority created by institutional freaks, policy makers are the creators of the horrors politicians create, lawyers keep it going, someone once said, all law is violence. I think any idea that is imposing, unnecessary, undemocratic, led by propaganda and usually wholly uninterestingly is the very British authoritarian stiff upper lip way of life - good luck to them. I want something different, I love to think, challenge, enjoy diversity, creativity, fun and tactical frolics.

I wish the role of soldiers never existed but there we have it... they do and that is our reality... We can console ourselves that the earth is much bigger than us, the earth learned how to move in space, harbour so many life forms over time that we do not know how many and perhaps the awful bit is that it allowed us to flourish for many years without science to reach the dizzy heights of being the only mammals to kill each other in the millions.

However, I did definitely use the wrong word for Labour activists - thanks Danny. Activists cannot be by there very nature be affiilated to any awful political party.

I will try to be more understanding in relation to soldiers but not over and above that of civilians. I will always point out to people that civilians are dying in a bloody war, created by politicians but presently being managed by the military. Soldiers are part of that military machine, just like Labour honchos are part of the corruption and desk killing murder of innocent people just to pillage and ravage the earth.

I hope the eternal lights of the world will help us human beings come out of this and love each other and the earth. Danny, you must not be sexist though, you cannot rely on your succession of girlfiends (also very macho :(( ) to tell you killing is wrong, if you cannot find it in yourself, how can you expect the soldiers who have been as you state been violently reared to live in this condition?

You can believe in self defence but violence aggression is the language of those in power. I do not ever want to be part of a real alternative that proposes the same. The idea is not to serve the units of power that want this, at some point, a mass of people will be big enough for this to occur - believe ...

The people who started World War One by killing Archduke Ferdinand thought they were acting to prevent war. Instead, they sparked off events which led to terror, misery, despair and the deaths of millions.

I really recommend "A War in Words" (Palmer/Wallis) for this and other insights, if you haven't already read it.

And I think, with all due respect, that you should establish very quickly that you are not the person you are pretending to be online. It is all very well to entertain the security services, who do read indymedia, with tales of daring, and to spice their lives up with vague threats against politicians, but it detracts from your otherwise compelling narrative.

These are terrible stories, but there are people out there trying to help, I know.

And sorry, about offloading my own small experience, it was a little one-sided as a result. The young man I met (boy seems too patronising to me, with hindsight) had many bright sparks in his life - his girlfriend, his gran, his courage and decency, and his refusal to condone this killing in the face of it all.

I do agree with T, comments about killing are very childish and do require proper thought. Perhaps the idiots who describes themselves ironically, perhaps as intelligence should also read the same book and maybe then all the qualities T pointed out may turn up in their own lives too. I hope so...

Otherwise the moron security services can carry on picking on brown people because they are the new targets of the warmongers that rule their Crap Britannia rather than to cherish this and all the lovely lands and islands that inhabit our lovely planet.

Thanks for the tip about the book T, will read and no doubt ponder, agree with a lot of what you said, nice to know you actually met a soldier who decided to say no because he actually thought about what he was doing to others. That really does give food for thought

"And I think, with all due respect, that you should establish very quickly that you are not the person you are pretending to be online. It is all very well to entertain the security services, who do read indymedia, with tales of daring, and to spice their lives up with vague threats against politicians, but it detracts from your otherwise compelling narrative."

I wish I could but I've been living that lie so long I now believe it myself. Ask my mum or me girl or me friends, or ask any genuine peace-activist that has met me. I couldn't restrain myself from killing TB or his sidekicks now even if I wanted to, I am committed. Though you are quite incisive about my dishonesty, I haven't killed anyone and probably couldn't even kill Blair in a fair fight, and probaly never will even be able to hurt even his minions, I would be forced by my own rhetoric to try if I had half a chance. Half of what I say is just hyperbole to confuse our 'listeners' but that boast isn't. I would kill him or any known politician. I truly believe that by killing a politician it would make the world a better place even if my undoubtedly lovely personality died in the attempt. I do believe he deserves that for the people he has sacrificed for his personal profit. I condemn anyone who has met him and hasn't tried to kill him. He has to be killed to prevent any other future 'leader' from committing our kids to die for their profit. I can forgive MI5 and MI6 and all those other shits, but I can't forgive the labour party who kill others for personal power. I would only reget having to kill them quickly.

I'm sorry, your story made me cry but it is only one story among many similar ones. I would kill any of them who create such tales. I know that undermines what I was saying about forgiving, but I have my own line and better protestors than me should be making my points here. They aren't. You blame who you want to blame, you forgive who you want to, but I will kill him if I can and I don't care if my credibility or possible future actions suffer for proclaiming this. I will try to kill that evil, murderous shit for the rest of my days. And to hell with those of you who won't.

PS I worship Gavrilo Princip. If I could travel back in time and warn him of the consequences of his action, I wouldn't Don't you see how silly it is to blame the Great War on him and his pals ? The 'Great' war wasn't his fault at all, he had no armies nor wish for war. It was the mainly the fault of the idiotic leaders who lived by oppression and exploitation, though partly the fault of the fools who followed their leaders. Even so, in the great war soldiers killed soldiers. I mourn those soldiers, but it wasn't as terrible or condemnable as the current 'long war'.

Thank god for assasins, death to all tyrants. Shame on you who refuse to at least profess death to Blair. Yes, all actions have unseen consequences. Punishing war mongerers with death is always just.

As said previously, your rhetoric would sit easily with your soldier pals who you feel sorry for but I do not see any difference between you and them if that is how you feel. Next, you will want power in the hands of soldiers and you will be killing those who disagree with killing ... If it is people like you are trying to help soldiers who want to kill, god help us, perhaps it is just as well as that some of the views on the list said no to killing and we recognised that taking life is bad whether you do it from a desk or some bastard shooting you in th back whether you are old, young, a child, a woman, a man or even a politician - it is better never to meet any of them or the likes of you who have never even been in the army. I do not want to waste my life killing someone like Blair, he his ruled by Bush and the corporates, and you, who are you riles by, yourself and your own hatred and prejudices...go ahead, have your views but the days of me engaging in the language of people sympathetic or in the armed services ... I do not have to kill to make the world a better place ... if people like you do, do it, live by your own views and discuss them with people who share them ... I won't ever be one of them

Just a few points.

't': If you think the people responsible for the start of world war I were a couple of assasins then you have been terribly misleaded by the curse of GCSE history. Just like any War there is an official excuse or a 'spark' we can call it that will signal the start of it. It was the WMD's during Iraq, the kidnapped soldiers in Lebanon, September 11th for Afghanistan, Pearl Harbour for the US joining WWII. However the truth is all these wars were building up years before and had one goal. The increase of the world pie for the countries that took part in the war. An excuse is always needed but is never the reason for these wars.

'notowar': "I do not have to kill to make the world a better place ... if people like you do, do it, live by your own views and discuss them with people who share them ... I won't ever be one of them"

You say this now but if you look at the "western Democratic" model historically any change for the benefit of the people has only been achieved through violence. The powers that be control the media, the education system, and all else that influences our minds in order to make sure their power is consolidated. My family know first hand what it means to vote against their power. Sure enough after the second world war (after supposedly fightin for democracy) the people of Greece decided they wanted communism. 80% of the country thought that was the way forward. It was their choice afterall right? Democracy stands for all that shit. It wasnt long till the British troops who were in Greece at the time started attacking the Greek revolutionary army and any civillian protests. Tens of thousands died. In fact there is new evidence (read:Inside Hitler's Greece: The Experience of Occupation, 1941-44) that points to a collaboration between the british troops and the retreating German soldiers, where the NAZI's were allowed time by the British to systematically round up and execute Communists in the Greek villages they passed by. This is what happens when people try to change the world for what they see as their benefit. The 'democratic institutions' will never allow that to happen non-violently. Look at Chile with Allende. Or Cuba in 1952 when Batista took power before the elections. Look at organisations in the USA such as the Black Panthers who were maimed, slaughtered and finaly destroyed by the US government. Alll im saying is dont put too much of your money on non violence as a way of achieving your means.

Danny: Just a question. If you didnt have any friends in the army do you think ud still leave them out of the blame game? Its an honest question no harm intended and il believe what you tell me just want to know if your views on this issue are somewhat blurred by that situation.

Please. Enough of this macho bullshit. People who approve of killing have no place in the anti-war - ie peace - movement. You are just ligging.

Why not join in constructively, because what we need right now, in case you haven't noticed, is a peace movement.

Just as the peaceful people rose up at the time of the Cuban missile crisis and pulled the world back from the brink of nuclear war, we need to rise up. Just as the people then became informed about the horrific concequences of nuclear war, we need to become informed, and react against it.

Otherwise you'll be hanging around the burnt out wastelands with your rifles. That'll make you happy, hey.

As for the person whose hero is Princip: his co-conspirator, Vassa Cabrilovic, who survived the war in jail, wrote:

"In any event, it wasn't our intention to cause a world war, and we truly believed just a couple of Serbian officers sent us the weapons".

Yes, the young assasins were being used by larger interests to destabalise the status quo(making them unlikely heroes, I would have thought). But in order to be used successfully, they had to be ruthless, dangerous or shortsighted enough to be prepared to kill for what they saw as their cause.

They didn't achieve their aim (a united Yugoslavia); and by getting rid of one of the more sensible and moderate players, they opened the door for darker forces to take over.

It should be common knowledge that the USA uses undercover agents to stir moderate resistance groups into acts of bloodshed and violence. If Danny wasn't being so unsuccessful at it, I would be tempted to wonder by now.

...
Does my personal connection to servicemen sway my opinions ? Of course. However, I still think it is rational to support soldiers, or at least not to blame them for wars. I don't have any connections to the police anymore and I'd still avoid attacking them if I can for the same reason. They aren't my enemy. I attack police-cars, as often as possible, or police-stations when I'm feeling reckless, but the only fight I've ever got in with a cop was when he had kicked me first for no reason, had threatened me with an unfair beating and was drawing a firearm on me. I panicked and took his legs from under him, smacking his head off the ground and some anonymous and middle-class arab helped me escape. Anonymous arabs get me out of so much trouble, they know what is like to be shat upon by cops while noone helps. I hate the US state, and the Israeli state, but I am perfectly polite and helpful to every US or Israeli citizen I meet and wouldn't dream of hurting them, for my own state is just as bad and I don't hate myself.

Notowar,

I do admire those who can maintain a zero-tolerance approach to violence, but sometimes pacifism can be psychotically irrational. In the face of my government genociding other people for resources - I do beleive that to be the case- I would be ashamed to be a pacifist - sure, I employ NVDA where appropriate, but it's a tactic for me not an end in itself. I'm not trying to encourage more violence here, I'm just trying to act like a lightening conductor to ensure the existing violence here is better focussed, and for me that means the parliamentarians, specifically the pro-war liars, hopefully any cabinet member. And perhaps a few of the top war-corporations and gun-runners but that is just me. If I ever achieve any success then folk like you can act as my jury, no complaints from me, but bear in mind every jury can choose what laws to apply and what laws to ignore thanks to Magna Carta. I wouldn't convict anyone for any political assasination.

T,

Your comment appeared after my last post, sorry for not responding.

Okay, I've been accused of being a spy here so often that I'm unoffended by your suggestion that I am an agent provocateur- be rational though, do you see me trying to recruit folk here ? Am I trying to discredit your opinions with association with my opinions ? No.

You should study the Nuremberg Tribunal that a lot of international law is based on. It pardoned the Germans who tried to kill Hitler - and it imposed a duty on all us to not only always disobey unjust orders, but to attempt to kill murderous tyrants. In this respect, I have the law on my side.

Or would you condemn the many attempted assassin of Hitler as quickly as you condemn me and Princip ? The legitimate elected Chancellor of a peace-loving democracy after all, at least that's how he was portrayed in his own press. Am I going over-board comparing Blair to Hitler ? In effect perhaps but not in intent.

92% of the British public were against the invasion of Iraq without a UN mandate. So where the fuck is democracy. Oh sure, representative democracy - we vote for our own jailors, our own elite qualified to overrule our opinions.

Fuck that for a game of soldiers. I will not willingly and peacefully walk into a gas-chamber, nor will I let my peace-loving primeminister cluster-bomb Iraqi infants for the oil under their feet. You don't have to agree with me or do as i do, but you should reexamine your arguments before you think I'll bow down to your supposed moral inactivism.

Read up on Widerstand before you judge me again. I'm only scared of letting our effectively Nazi leaders slip off into the safety of the American lecture circuit like Thatcher did. I have to admit I am so impotent and incapable that Blair really has nothing to fear but my words, but I won't ever forgive him or his cronies nor will I resist any opportunity for justice.

Danny,

I am not condemning. I am pointing out the bleeding obvious. Violent acts have violent consequences.

Whether they are lawful or not is another issue. The law is sometimes an ass, remember.

Who knows what would have happened in Germany if someone had managed to assasinate Hitler? Peace and harmony? Personally, I doubt it. There are always plenty of hangers-on around power centres who are waiting for their chance to take over. A new Nazi leader could have stepped in, with enough fresh ambition and desire to keep the whole terrible killing spree, which is what I assume you are objecting to, going for years longer.

But I do not know. You do not know. I think that is important.

By the way, politicians are not a seperate species, as you know, they are people.

You are not powerless, and you do not have to resort to rhetoric. You could be a politician, in fact, with your gift for language: don't tell me that a House of Commons filled with Jeremy Corbins would have gone to war.

No-one is advising inaction, but I would suggest that what is needed is urgent re-engagement with the values of the broadly peaceful mass of society. Otherwise, resistance, while valiant, in a token way, is merely crushed with increasing ease and severity.

That is if a British soldier (or any invader) was standing sayin front of an Iraqi ressistance fighter and they were both holding guns. Do we all agree wed want the Iraqi to be left standing by the endof it. And no bullshit stories about them both dropping the weapons holding hands and walking off into the sunset please.

If we still had a mass peace movement then I would bow down before it's whims as I did before, but people - my people in my mind- are dying daily in large numbers partially due to my own inaction, partially due to my own willing subservience to non-violence. We don't have a mass movement anymore, it's time to face facts. What we lack in mass we can compensate for with momentum. Noone has crushed me yet, well not my enemies at least. I don't need to march slowly with my whole community - I can run faster on my own, straight for Blairs throat.

I'm sorry for simplifying your arguments, you have done a good job at correcting me and I'd rather you could argue me away from my position, no disrespect meant but better folk have tried. The best of folk have tried but I would still rather be dead than accept Tony Blairs luxurious lifestyle. Rhetoric ? We'll see. If the ICC lived up to it's promises then idiots like me wouldn't have to plan assasinations. You respect Jeremy Corbins - I don't, but I'll leave him til last out of respect for you. I forgive Alice Mahon for her stand, but the rest of them should at least face trial for treason - if you can manage that peaceably before I strike then you are a better man than me.

Although I am issuing empty threats, I know many folk even within the security services loathe Blair like I do. Contact me you folk, use me, give me a better weapon than I currently possesss and use my attempt for your own ends, a mutually agreeable murder would be fine with me. I would happily die to have a chance at the tyrants life.
I am not mindless. I am arguing against riots. I am arguing against suicide bombs and untargetted violence. I am arguing against pointless disrespect against soldiers and cops. I just cannot forgive Blair and his cronies for his daily mass-murders of strangers for profit.

"By the way, politicians are not a seperate species, as you know, they are people. "

Yeah, I knew some of them before they thought to govern me. I know I will be committing murder when and if I am able to kill them. I just believe I will be saving lives by doing so. More than that, I will be asserting my own right to self-determination, freedom if you will. Sure, other politicians will fill their shoes. That is my point too- those replacements will perhaps think twice before sacrificing our children for their supposed 'blood debt' for oil, murdering or their own enrichment. Just now they have victors justice, they escape unscathed and enriched from the carnage they cause. I don't think Blair is some evil alien lizard - I just can't see the differnce as I am judging his acttions not his form. Actually, I've said everything I have to say on the subject, I don't need your understanding, approval or support. In the unlikely case that I am ever successful and survive then you can visit me in prison and berate me. The Iraq massacres made me hate 60 million people who allowed that, now I've been able to tune it down to a few hundred, I'm on the mend.

"You could be a politician, in fact, with your gift for language:"
See ! I'm rational. I can forgive that comment as you probably don't understand how hurtful that is, I can see they are still just words. I could not be a politician and remain who I truly am. I would rather be boiled alive before giving you an order. Please, accuse me of rape before you throw such insults around so lightly. Good wi' words - where has that got me ? It was nice talking to you though, g'bye.

I think the warmongers will only be beaten when, in the case of the two soldiers, both look each other in the eye, recognise their common humanity, and walk off together, having first jumped up and down on their guns.

This is not a bullshit story, It happened most memorably on Christmas Eve in World War 2. What the public are not often told is that whole battalions in our front line trenches refused to fight. They are never mentioned.

And one US officer interviewed on televsion two years ago was complaining about the finding that around 80 percent of soldiers in World War 2 ended up shooting into the air, rather than at each other. It was, he said, extremely difficulty to get people to kill. He sounded disappointed.

War is a big con, you know. The power crazed leaders, on both sides, will always push people into it. They then watch them, and their families, die in the chaos.

Just as well it wasn't 100% of allied soldiers firing into the air - not sure how effective petitions and sit-ins would have been against the Nazis (the real ones)...