The Northern Green Gathering and the British National Party
Antifascist | 03.08.2006 14:23 | Anti-racism | Sheffield
Antifascist
Additions
Event Location
03.08.2006 14:43
Dockber Laithe Farm
Clitheroe
Lancs
BB7 4LF
The site is just off the A59 near Sawley, Clitheroe, Lancashire.
The above is taken from thre NGG web site:
![](/img/extlink.gif)
The BNP site, www.bnp.org.uk/rwb06 has this info:
Tickets for the RWB 2006 are now on sale.
Saturday - Sunday 12th - 13th August, usual site at Sawley, Lancashire.
Look up the NGG post code on Google Maps and you get the attached location.
searcher
EF! gathering's better anyway
03.08.2006 23:59
The Earth First! Summer Gathering is the place where people involved in radical ecological direct action - or those who want to be involved - get together for five days of time and space to talk, walk, share skills, learn, play, rant, find out what's going on, find out what's next, live outside, strategise, hang out, incite, laugh and conspire.
The gathering is also a practical example of non-hierarchical low-impact living in action.
We are a diverse community with a wide range of approaches to our action, so there should be plenty to interest and inspire everyone whether you have been active for years or are completely new to it all.
greenie anti-fash
Homepage:
http://earthfirstgathering.org.uk
Or look at it this way
05.08.2006 12:45
While NGG would be much happier if the BNP weren't using the same site, and all disappeared in a puff of smoke, along with their poison, it is important to consider that NGG will be delivering an alternative into the area, providing the voice of reason, and demonstrating that respect for each other and the environment is the only way to sustainability, the only viable future.
Gael
Homepage:
http://www.nggonline.org.uk
Slating NGG will make no difference here
08.08.2006 15:31
It has been suggested to me that if NGG and the other events held there all withdrew, on this basis, then maybe he could be persuaded to stop hosting the BNP gathering. I think this is garbage. I suspect he'll just get some other events to come along - biker rallies, knitting festivals...anti fascist gatherings...and won't care what they are either, and be all the happier with the BNP gathering organisers for staying and not causing him any trouble.
Believe it or not, it is possible for people to not have any political views.
If you have a problem with the BNP gathering, go complain at them, not at NGG. Hold a demonstration outside, throw eggs at them, cause trouble for them. Then when they've all gone home stay for NGG and you will be most welcome.
stu
Comments
Hide the following 74 comments
razor portaloo massacre
03.08.2006 16:47
josh
josh
e-mail:
premiermaple@hotmail.com
No Coincidence
03.08.2006 16:51
Antifascist
Site-owner
03.08.2006 18:02
Andrew
Hitler The Modern Vegetarian
03.08.2006 18:42
Tim
news article from 2002
04.08.2006 11:53
See lancashire evening telegraph article from 2002 -
Martin
Essay on Hitler's reputed vegetarianism
04.08.2006 14:57
Donal O'Driscoll, Oct 1998
For those fighting for the abolution of vivisection it is not uncommon to be
labelled as nazis by its defenders in their efforts to discredit with ad hominem
attacks when their science fails them. This is not simply a question of basic
insult. Is ugly head rises continually rises as the pro-vivisection have found
themselves a bit of twentieth century mythology of sufficent impact to latch
onto. What it boils down to is that the Nazi Party of Hitler's German claimed
to respect animal rights and therefore all animal rights activists must be of
the same calibre. The flaw in this argument is apparent to all who pause for a
minute to think about the logic behind it. The same logic would have us branding
as fascist anyone with blue eyes and blond hair.
Rather than go into detail as to the various logical flaws of this stand point - odd for men and women of science where logic is the basis of their work, we are going to concentrate on the nazis themselves and see how far the claims made by the pro-vivisectionists for them are actually true. This roughly divides into two issues: the extent and nature of vivisection in Nazi Germany and the laws controlling the use of animals in their science and society; and what sort of vegetarian was Hitler. The former has already been explored elsewhere in the essays and work of Roberta Kalechofsky (Founder of Jews for Animal Rights) [7] and Jeremy Caudle. It is the latter we shall concentrate on in this article since there seems to be as much confusion among those fighting vivisection as those proposing it. Though some would argue that we can not seperate Hitler's
opinion on vivisection and vegetarianism, this article is being constructed from the point of view of criticisms leveled at the modern anti-vivisection and vegetarianism movements which are sufficiently distinct to make this seperation nessecary to keep the issues at stake clear. For those who say that Hitler was a supporter of animal rights as defined in the modern language of Singer and Regan, then the quick answer is that in this philosophy there is no room for a person who tests out his cynide pill on his pet dog.
On of the first things we must be careful not to do is to dismiss the claims out of hand immediately. If we are to be strong as a movement we must be able to defeat our detractors at their own game and take them on with their standards. If we do this and succeed then we have made them look foolish; not doing this leaves us open to the perennial accusation of simply being ignorant cranks. Hidding from the fact Hitler claimed to be vegetarian is not going to do any
good. What we need to do is to show how this supposed vegetarianism was nothing more than a claim, in part promoted by the Nazi spin doctors, in part a weak man deluding himself.
The answer to the "accusation" that Hitler was a vegetarian, is that those who make this claim are as much victims of the man as those who believed in his lies at the time. Hindsight has given us the advantage to see through his other claims and posturings so why should we fall for this one as well.
We will start with the question as to why Hitler espoused vegetarianism then discuss how good a vegetarian he was. What seems to accepted through out the various sources and historians that this claim first surfaces in or before the year 1931. After this we get into the principle region of confusion as there seemingly two schools of thought.
The first is that Hitler was told to go vegetarian on the advice of his doctors. In the years of the Weimar Republic which governed Germany following World War I until the Nazis took power, vegetarianism was seen as a health fad for which much good was claimed. In particular it was espoused by one of Hitler's heros, the composer Wagner. Wagner believed that vegetarianism promoted vitality, long life and physical fitness, all things important to Hitler (though not practised
by) and which he was to attribute to vegetarianism. Hitler also had a chronic stomach condition which was to trouble him for the majority of his life. Connected with this was a flatulance problem. He believed that a diet of vegetables helped to settle his stomach and remove the odors of the latter.
The second is that Hitler went vegetarian as a result of the death of his niece Geli in 1931. Geli, full name Angela Raubal, was the daughter of Hitler's step-sister who was acting as his housekeeper from 1929. Between 1929 and 1931 Hitler became very attached to Geli, forming a possesive and jealous relationship over her that developed into an infatuation. His feeling for her does not appear to have been recipocated and in September 1938 she shot herself. There are several theories around her death and some mystery remains due to lack of direct evidence more than anything else, however the important issue here is that it had a very profound effect on Hitler. For the rest of his life he had a photo of her in his room which flowers were placed in front of every year on the
anniversaries of her birth and her death. Many statements as to Hitler's vegetarianism are derived from this period. Indeed the diaries of one of his secretaries states that it was as a result of Geli's death that he turned vegetarian.
So which of the above view points are correct? The first thing to note that his doctors recommended that he went vegetarian but he did not seem to follow their advice more than intermittently. However, the idea was planted in his mind and the death of his niece, which we know made a profound and lasting shock on him. His vegetarianism, or rather his definition of it, seems to have become stronger after the death of Geli Raubal. Up until then vegetarianism was associated with his feeling better from his stomach problems and other conditions, though there was some evidence that there was some cross pollination of the idea of meat being bad for him with the idea of death, another very important subject in his life was already occuring in the early 1920's, viz during his relationship with Mimi Reiter [2].
However, it was not until Geli's death, triggering a much more pronounced fixation with death did he start to fully link it with his own health which in turn, following doctors and Wagner, he linked with vegetarianism. The result is now an abhorence of meat and the real espousal of vegetarianism as a way of life, as can be so readily found in the diaries of Goebbels. That it is the death of Geli which brought about this shift of position, from a health fad to a full blown way of life is testified to in the diaries of his secretaries at the time and the well known comment to Goering that he refused to eat a piece of ham on the grounds it reminded him of a corpse. This position has been taken by a number of historians including Albert Speer, Robert Payne and John Toland. Hitler's friend, Frau Hess, is given in Toland as having said that he never ate meat after Geli's death except liver dumplings.
So on the face of it the evidence so far does seem to support the assertation that Hitler was a vegetarian. However, we still have to discuss how well he carried it out. Are we going to simply accept the ideal of the aestic leader, favoured by Goebbels [3], of which the vegetarianism was wound in to promote further comparisons with Ghandi? As with much in his life in this too he was a chronic liar both to himself and others [2]. And not even consistently at that.
Pre 1931 we have the situation familiar to many of us - we hear and appreciate the doctors advice but in the face of giving up a pleasure we do not nessecarily follow it. This holds equally true of Hitler. His love of certain meat, in particular liver dumplings and Bavarian sauages [8] is well known and he found it hard to give up meat altogether. It mostly depended on how much trouble he was receiving from his stomach as to how seriously he took the vegetarian diet.
In 1931 and after, Hitler was already well on his way to power but in the words of the historian David Irving: "By 1936 Hitler was an extremely cranky vegetarian" and even his idea of what a vegetarian seems to deviate quite significantly from what we currently take the word to mean. In the late 1930's we have the testimony of a hotel chef in Hamburg called Dione Lucas saying that
Hitler's favourate dish was stuffed and roasted baby pigeon [4]. In 1937 there was an article in the New York Times on Hitler where he is described as a vegetarian who loved ham and caviar!! [7]
It is important to point out here that there are documented cased where he ordered his chef to prepare vegetarian dishes [5], but as pointed out above this can be regarded as him reacting to increased stomach trouble at the time. Looking closer at this statement it is odd that for such a powerful figure that he would have to specfically order vegetarian dishes, when if he was such a professed vegetarian his should be taken as a matter of course.
This all fits in with the details given in the "The Medical Casebook of Adolf Hitler" by Leonard and Renate Heston [6], which chronicles his stomach aliments and the various food explorations that he tried to settle it. The overall picture is that he was more concerned about his own mortality and pain, but when he felt good he was not adverse to delving back into meat. Meanwhile, he was
keeping up the facade of a vegetarian diet to his friends as is attested in Goebbels diaries [1], the latter fulling believing Hitler's sermonizing on the subject.
For a person who manage to stamp so much of himself on the country he ruled at the time, there is no evidence that he tried to do the same with vegetarianism. yet he enforced other stringent health measures including anti-smoking laws. Indeed the opposite seems to have been the case if the treatment of the various vegetarian societies are anything to go by. Though individual vegetarians were not persecuted, their socities were being forced to leave the International
Vegetarian Union and subjected to Gestapo raids and stringent conditions.
So what are we left with? Accepting that Hitler was a proclaimed vegetarian we get a very poor impression of what that actually meant. Certainly by our standards he would he would not rank as one. At best he appears as a hypocrite, his problems not medical but seated much deeper in his psyche, a psyche with a very nasty inferiority complex and mendacious tendencies. His reasons for his belief were based on health, not moral, grounds. In fact I would go so far as to
say that Hitler's vegetarianism is nothing more than a label he adopted to suite himself. Those who use the two words together are guilty of falling foul of Hitler's own propaganda. In their glee they seize on the fact that the words can be used in the same sentence with out understanding the context in which they are given.
The answer to the "accusation" that Hitler was a vegetarian, is to ask do they believe liver dumplings, caviar and ham to be vegetarian; are they going to listen to a liar who could not even follow his own teachings?
References
[1] "The Goebbels Diaries 1939-41", translated by Fred Taylor, 1982
[2] "The Psychopathic God: Adolf Hitler', Robert Waite, 1977
[3] "Life and Death of Adolf Hitler", Robert Payne, 1973
[4] "Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook", Dione Lucas
[5] "Hitler, A Study in Tyranny", Alan Bullock, 1994
[6] "The Medical Casebook of Adolf Hitler", Leonard & Renate Heston, 1979
[7] "Hitler and Vegetarianism", Roberta Kalechofsky,
[8] "Adolf Hitler", John Toland, 1976
Acknowledgements
I would like to thank Jez Caudle and JP Goodwin for their help researching this article.
Soggy Sosmix
Who cares?
04.08.2006 17:49
N.Holmes
yea it matters
05.08.2006 14:30
soggy sosmix
collett/reynolds
05.08.2006 18:00
SAD BNP
Sad?
05.08.2006 20:21
If they were all raving benders or sexual freaks or even better minorities you would be saying how great they were.
Lets have a look at the Labour Party puffs on their websites shall we or the Tory from Bradford who advertised himself and his wife for unnatural sex.
Thats more like it.
Julian Clary
Normal?
07.08.2006 12:08
Reg
Sod Farmer Giles!
07.08.2006 13:37
Yorkshire anti-racist
So Nice...
08.08.2006 15:31
I'm still going
Its not consistent
08.08.2006 15:35
Its one thing to informed someone of who they are getting paid by, and another to give them business knowing full well what they are like. And lets face it if he sees noting wrong with the BNP, and says he doesn’t have ‘political feelings’ then he’s either lying or an idiot.
Mary
e-mail:
holme_i@hotmail.com
Fascism is an irrelevance to middle-class hippies
08.08.2006 17:48
Is this a reference to the BNP?
Wouldn't want to 'bitch'.
Jennings
Saddening...
08.08.2006 17:53
OK there may have been some naivity on the part of the organisers, but I find it very sad that some individuals seem to want to think the NGG are BNP supporters or do not care. I don't beleive that for a minute.
And I find it even more sad that Climate camp feel the need to have a pop with this come to us we're better - surely anyone with a modicum of intellegence can see that they are two different events - Yes there is a need for direct cation on climate change, but there is also a need for educating the ordinary person about sustainable living, and providing a family friendly, fun event showing how this can be done sustainably - which to my mind is what NGG is about.
Surely the best thing for everyone is to stop back biting and let NGG happen happily..?
Or has Indymedia really turned into something like a Tabloid letters page?
Northern Green Goer
Economic sabotage anyone?
08.08.2006 20:44
And what the fuck are the NGG doing? Although I admire the objectives of their festival, to knowingly support a landowner who supports the BNP is at best crass naivity, and at worst politically very suspect. I urge everyone to boycott this event, unless to rip it off.
Freddie Fencecutter
Fuck The Farmer
08.08.2006 23:02
As for the Climate Camp, whose mentioned the Climate Camp, that's not on until after the NGG? It's the Earth First! Gathering that the NGG clashes with. Sod supporting the bastard who owns the BNP/NGG site.
Black N Red
Stu (additions)
08.08.2006 23:18
Black N Red
fao stu
09.08.2006 11:48
Concerned Of Gipton
Northern Greed
09.08.2006 19:11
What a bunch of fucking oppertunists!
Ollie
hysteria
09.08.2006 20:30
By the way, northern green don't make any money from their camp. Fluffy & naive perhaps - opportunists & fascist sympathisers, no.
green pixie
EXCUSE ME
09.08.2006 22:01
JOSH
JOSH
e-mail:
premiermaple@hotmail.com
Drip, Drip...
10.08.2006 00:51
Really, you patronising cunt? Some of us have been aware of that for decades. The Palestinians fought the fascist Phalange in Lebanon in the 70's, and they'd be up for fighting the BNP not sleeping in the same field as them.
As for you Green Pixie, what a mug. This farmer has been hosting the BNP for 4 years, who gives a fuck what the piece of shit thinks? Not all environmental activists are tame idiots like you.
Boycott the Northern Greed
This is so typical...
10.08.2006 08:45
You want your little ruck and glory, take action against the BNP, fuck up their gathering like you always boast that you do.
But unless you know for sure what the farmrers politics are (and plenty of you have ranted, whilst admitting that they DON'T) you should quit this moral-entrepeneurship.
Maybe if the farmer sees that having the BNP is more problem than not he might change his mind. Maybe if NGG and the other events that he's hosted all turn round and say "not again unless you ditch the BNP" he might think about it. Or maybe not in which case you'll be vindicated and you can go and take action against him. To be fair it wouldn't surprise me - he's a fucking rural lancashire farmer. It's not unlikely that there's more support for the right in that sort of circles. You gonna go and smash up the whole of Sawley 'cos they didn't complain about who he hosts?
Until you know the situation, what is to gained by trying to fuck up a family event and put all the blame on a bunch of well-meaning people who are AT WORST guilty of not researching or thinking about their choice of venue? Please explain?
This is totally what gives Antifascism a bad rep.
xZx
xZx
10.08.2006 09:18
West Yorks antifascist
xZx
10.08.2006 09:35
antifascist
Does antifascism have a bad rep?
10.08.2006 12:09
I have always read with interest someof the "discussions" on here where there's a bit of an accusation from more liberal types that certain people are more interested in the fighting, and that some anti fascist actions are not thought through fully and affect people that are innocent of the whole business...
Until now I have always thought, "not really, there's a good job being done and thanks to the people who are committed enough to do it".
OK - I totally agree that it's distasteful to put put money into the pockets of a BNP supporter. I'm 100% behind that. But at the end of the day no one has some up with compelling evidence that the farmer is doing anything else than thinking about his pocket. Look too hard and most people in Rural Lancashire and you'll probably find that their leanings are more right than left. OK he might have gone too far, but that's not NGGs fault is it?
What seems to have happened here is that some people putting on an event have not thought things through fully, maybe have got stuck having no time to change arrangements, might lose money (probably their own) after putting time and effort into what they beleive in, and all they are getting is abuse, insults, being called "pricks", accusations of being fascists themselves etc, and more worryingly threats that people are going to go and essentially try and fuck up their event, under the pretence of getting at the farmer.
Wouldn't it be far better to disrupt the BNP's event, let NGG go smoothly and then if you still feel the farmer is at fault take action against him that won't fall back on people who are really innocent in this, just perhaps a little naive?
I'm interested. Sadly my support for more active forms of antifascism is being seriously tested after reading this article. I don't want to be in that position, and whilst I doubt the people who are advocating cutting fences and trashing tractors give a toss what I think, I have to say that anyone who blames, accuses, or hits back at NGG is very very sad really, and loses my support for their methods of fighting something that we all know is a problem and would like to see wiped out of this world. We're all in the same struggle. Just some of us have different methods and sometimes mistakes are made. But isn't it better to try and sort them out rather than hit out..?
That's what I mean by a bad rep.
xZx
Whats going on?
10.08.2006 12:23
Rudeboy
"CUNT"
10.08.2006 12:46
JOSH
e-mail:
premiermaple@hotmail.com
Military Exercises For Three Year Old Kids - An Insight Into A BNP Government
10.08.2006 15:58
Shouldn't kids wait until they are of school age, before they learn how to make letter bombs, pipe bombs, and blow up pubs like the Admiral Duncan. I mean, at that age, they haven't yet had the chance to read Mein Kamph, or the Turner Diaries.
I really do pity these kids. It's not there fault their parents are racist scumbags, and worship Adolf bloody Hitler.
Shame they can't be taken into care, before they grow up, and end up serving time in prison for racist crime.
I thought the BNP believed in family values......
TT
Antifascism's "bad reputation"
10.08.2006 19:57
Ex-AFA
3 points on stuff that has come up in this thread
11.08.2006 00:02
2) there is a lot more long-term benefit in persuading the farmer to stop hosting the bnp on his land than there is in forcing him to do so rhrough violent, negative scare tactics. Both methods will lead to the same result, but the latter will cause him to be scared and hateful and resentful of "the left" and more likely to be supportive of the BNP - and more likely to encourage others to be so - whilst the former will potentially lead him to oppose the BNP and encourage others to do so.
3) for fuck's sake people, can't we discuss this without resorting to endless bitchy peersonal attacks, but instead have a fucking discussion about it? Reading this thread would make anyone despair - why does being a self declared "radical" mean that you're incapable of measured, reasonable and logical argument? Anger rises in everyone, but why not take a breath sit back look at the screen read it through and think about what will facilitate a good debate and discussion, instead of giving rise to unconstructive unhelpful bitchy comments? (cue Stinking Hippy taunts)
see you at ngg
C.Y.
C.Y.
Bad rep and undermining etc...
11.08.2006 08:48
What is underminining my opinion of physical-force antifascism is NOT a couple of posts sugesting economic sabotage. I'm all for that.
The post below mine sums it up quite well actually:
- The lack of accountability that is evident here. If you are going to take direct physical action, then stand up and justify it in a slightly better way than just dismissing any criticism as liberal or wimpy. I'm personally totally behind physical-force antifascism but I think it needs to be accountable. You have chosen a valid way to fight a problem. But maybe others opinions are valid too (and I'm not referring to UAF and all that trot nonsence either, just ordinary people who might see your cuase and methods in a better light if some of the abject arrogance was left at the door).
- The resorting to bitchy comments. Why not give the organisers of NGG a chance to better explain their situation and even perhaps accept their error instead without resorting to playground insults and accusations of greed (ever put on an event of that scale? - I don't know their budget but looking at the size of it compared to their ticket prices I'd wager a break-even is the best case sscenario.)
And ultimately, could you please explain why it's better to sneak behind NGG to sabotage the farmers property? Whether NGG going ahead unhitched will have any effect on the farmer's views I can't say, but surely it would make far better a point to either:
- go directly to the BNP's event and ensure that it doesn't go ahead and actually strike at the problem. (Maybe you are and I wouldn't expect you to say one way or the other as I have a little more respect than that.)
or:
- wait until NGG is over and give the organisers a chance to have a better shot in the future (I think awareness has been plenty raised to them), instead of going on to their site and causing trouble when there will be totally innocent people who don't know anything about this, (call them middle class hippies if you like) on site with their kids and then go an make sure the farmer knows exactly why it's being done.
All that will happen if you hide behind NGG is that the farmer will think that people who go to festivals are vandals. That hardly makes your point does it?
And if anyone wants to boycott the event, that's their privilage. That's fine!
It's not advocating economic sabotage undermining my opinion. It's the refusal to engage in sensible debate, and explain your motives and beleifs, and ultimately that how the suggestions made by "Freddie Fence-cutter" and "Black and Red" look is simply that you want to hide behind a group of hippies and let them take the rap for your actions. If you're going to use direct methods be accountable, make it clear what is happening and why, and don't try and let others take the blame.
NGG are not fascists. They have just made a mistake.
xZx
Say No
11.08.2006 09:32
Antifascist
Stop using this thread to attack antifascists
11.08.2006 09:51
Among who?
"not necessary because taking militant action against fascists is a bad idea but because all too often, it seems like a bunch of kids being naughty rascals out for a bit of a fight and well up for putting drawing pins on Teacher's chair"
If you actually got involved with militant antifascism you would see that there are people involved who are in their 50's. Where do you get this stuff from, certainly not from the considered actions of genuine antifascists? It;'s usually the Right who try to caricature us, though you're hardly the first to do it on Indymedia.
"there is a lot more long-term benefit in persuading the farmer to stop hosting the bnp on his land than there is in forcing him to do so rhrough violent, negative scare tactics. Both methods will lead to the same result, but the latter will cause him to be scared and hateful and resentful of "the left" and more likely to be supportive of the BNP - and more likely to encourage others to be so - whilst the former will potentially lead him to oppose the BNP and encourage others to do so."
For the past 4 years, a number of antiracist organisations have tried to persuade this farmer not to play host to the 'Red, White, & Blue' festival. There have been protests outside the gates, leaflets have been given out, letters have been written to the local papers, etc. They have not made one bit of difference to the farmer. Personally, I could not care less if the RWB is cancelled because this mercenary is scared, hateful, or resentful. To think that this individual is going to miraculously convert to opposing the BNP is naive at best and disingenuous at worst.
"see you at ngg "
You've made your position clear CY. It's a shame you can't do so without slating antifascists.
ANTIFA member (personal capacity)
Earth First!
11.08.2006 10:05
Hippy
...
11.08.2006 10:11
Ant
Response to say no...
11.08.2006 10:56
I don't think I have tried to turn this into an attack on militant antifascism, though if you feel that, that's fair enough. What I have said is that a number of responses (at best polite but incredibly sanctimonious, at worst downright childish and offensive) have been endemic of attitudes within militant antifascism that I feel are problematic. I've made it clear on a number of occasions that as a movement/method/beleif it has my support.
But so does NGG. If anyone wants to boycott it then that's up to them. Personally I'm still going there, as I have always enjoyed it and beleive that in being an approachable way to educate people about "green" issues and above all show how an entire event like that can be run sustainably.
I don't see a path of self interest personally. I see a trying to make the best out of a situation I doubt anyone's happy with. Perhaps an apology would have been more forthcoming if there had been less name calling and abuse and above all less demanding of one and comments like they should "hang their heads in shame etc." That sort of thing just indicates that there are still folk who see themselves as self-appointed overseers. Aren't we all against that??
If anyone want's to call me a liberal, naive or some of the worse insults that have been bandied about then fine. I don't expect much else from some people who've posted in this discussion. However I respect the few who have actually engaged and put their point across in an adult manner.
xZx
FAO xZx
11.08.2006 12:49
I don't know where else this issue has come up ( think my post may have been replicated on Libcom and certainly it was posted on Urban75.) I DO know that the NGG organisers have been aware of the situation for some time, and appear to have done their best to keep it quiet. There's certainly nothing about the matter on the NGG site, which along with Indymedia, would seem to be the perfect place to respond to criticism and/or make an apology.
Personally, I think that the EF! Gathering is a vastly better example of sustainable environmentally-friendly living than the NGG, and it is certainly a better example of non-hierarchical libertarian organisation.
Antifascist
Going?
11.08.2006 12:58
Gone
Pity the poor NGG
11.08.2006 16:19
JJ
Saddening...
12.08.2006 22:44
In the interests of transparency, can someone involved with NGG perhaps post up exactly what sum of money is being handed over to the venue and how far in advance it was booked? Considering the situation, I feel its only fair that we know the full facts.
Seriously, can you imagine any of our European comrades tolerating this sort of paradox? Not only is it a disgrace in itself, its also a colossal embarassment for the green movement in the UK.
This sort of apathy (one might be tempted to say avarice?) is typical of the half-arsed attitude that is currently crippling the left / green / anarcho tendency in the UK. And to try to turn this thread - which I feel is a profoundly important discussion - into a totally unjustified slating of the militant antifascist movement is nothing short of disgusting... what is it going to take to shake people in this country out of their complacency? Several thousand nazis marching, like our German comrades have to face? Being rounded up in cattle trucks?
For what its worth, although my political focus lies largely in other directions, I've been to both NGG and the EF! Gathering (a long time ago admittedly), and in terms of presenting a radical and constructive alternative, they are utterly different entities. I could probably get biting, but my opinions on didgeridoos and dreamcatchers aren't really relevant here - suffice to say I'd urge all interested comrades to forget the NGG and head to Wales...
I haven't lowered myself to checking, but I expect the clowns on Stormfornt will be tossing themselves silly over this sorry fiasco.
Yorkshire RASH
Cash
13.08.2006 12:27
Ollie
Traitors
13.08.2006 13:04
Bradfgord anti-racist
Bradford anti-racist
Bright idea?
13.08.2006 22:31
I bet the BNP are pissing their pants laughing at this thread.
Redbug
Redbug
Fuck the NGG
13.08.2006 23:25
Angry
Redbug
14.08.2006 20:06
As for the BNP, I doubt that they're pissing themselves at this thread anywhere near as much as when they found out that they were going to be followed onto site by the Northern Greed - and they've known about that just as long as the NGG.
Arnie
Accountability
14.08.2006 23:20
Disgusted of Armley
Saddened aswell..
14.08.2006 23:40
As a previous organiser of NGG / EF / Dissent gatherings (who's not been at all involved this year and just heard about all this and a bit shocked) and also been involved in anti-fash stuff...
I'm very disappointed to hear of the site choice, one I would have blocked if I have been involved, or left the collective & the project had the others still been keen to go ahead...
I agree that this should be addressed in the ngg website, and that the organisers comments here have been, well, a bit rubbish really. And I feel let down as the ngg identity, a project I have put much time and effort into over years it was has been sulllied, and I now feel unsure of any future involvement.
However I wish to note that:
As ngg has always been a place that was very supportive of ef! and the direct action movement, and a place to recruit new folks.. with a large campaigns area... how got involved in ef! myself.
NGG is, (or was?!) very much a non- hierarchal, consensus bassed event.
EF! borrows NGG tat every year to run the gathering, as did the eco-village in Stirling. And many of the organisers of the dissent Stirling eco-village were ex NGG organisers.. much of the skills & contacts from that were used.
And in the past you could not jump the fences.. as there weren't any. Its always been about trust, honesty, putting in what you can and collective responsibility.
NGG organisers don't get paid, they put in huge time and effort to put on a sustainable gathering to promote different campaigns and sustainability. It often lost money.
Although it blatantly becomes a festival every year, the aim has always been to run an educational gathering.. and our focus has always been on the campaigns, low impact living, permaculture & kids spaces.. and trying to defend the highly controversial sound system ban.. The idea is an outreach event in contrast to ef! which is a big meeting.. both useful to the movement..
Yeah true there are also lots of hipies & hippy shit there too.. The way it usually goes is that the income for the traders just about covers the cost of feeding all the folks who put time into (voluntary) at the event.. the organisers, stewards and site crew... I personally liked it better how we did it at the eco-village in Stirling.. and had very, very cheep food and all the folks, even the most busy organisers bought their own food from the kitchens. My dole was enough. And there was not any hippy tat.. ahh it was beautiful!
But the cafes that come to NGG charge a lot more for food. Some want to make money.,. its their livelihoods and other campaigns want to fund-raise. There is not the energy to cook for cost for an education gathering like at a big protest and there really isn't time for the organisers to cook themselves.. they'd practically just never eat.. so the Traders / Food thing seemed to work.
I also know of many EF! folks that have funded campaign (& sometimes themselves by selling more, er, intoxicating stuff) for some time off selling stuff at NGG. - also unlike the BGG, dodgy things like crystals, carnivorous plants, and animal furs were not welcome.. and the organisers were happy for folks too do actions anyone attempting to fly pitch them.
And what's the obsession with slamming the veggie burgers y'all? Supporting 'veggies' (the animal rights vegan catering campaign)and hopefully beiing one of the palces thay can make money in the year so thay can provide the amazing cakes & stuff they do for donations/cheap at so many actions and events throughout the year is one of the good things about NGG.
NGG uses shit pits not chemical toilets.. that's BGG.. (a totally unconnected event)
I suppose what I am saying is that yeah this BNP stuff is in my opinion very bad and a big mistake to be condemned - I don't disagree with the criticisms of that.- but want want to raise as far as the 'festivals' in the uk, ngg has always been one of the soundest, the most linked in with EF! and the direct action movement - and the organisers put in much time and sometimes money, for no financial return at all - calling it northern greed is just silly. Its not as radical space as we managed to create in Stirling last year.. but as a form of outreach, in the past, its existence has been a good thing.
Yeah the dream-catchers and djembes do really start to do your head in though.
Ex NGG organiser
ex ngg organiser
RWB
15.08.2006 08:43
Joe
'Joe'
15.08.2006 11:15
Auntie
"Joe"
15.08.2006 11:36
"I have been told there was not one anti Fash who turn up over the weekend where the BNP had it's summer ralley"
Really, who told you that 'Joe'?
"Is it true as posted on libcom that 3 Fash put about dozen anti Fash on their toes in Leeds on a pre arrange meeting? The anti Fash shouted a few slogans at the Fash then ran?"
That wasn't posted on libcom, and it isn't true. A "pre arrange meeting"? Like playground football-hooligans have?! You fascists really are sad fantacists. You've been getting your arses kicked for so long, no wonder you can barely walk upright.
Antifascist
ex ngg organiser
15.08.2006 11:52
black & green hippy
Scabs
15.08.2006 14:56
FTBNP
Northern Green Gathering
15.08.2006 17:58
The best thing the organisers can do - they may have been very naive here - is to make a clear statement on it. Then they should say to the farmer after this year's event, either ditch the BNP or we withdraw our trade for next year. Make a statement on that. Be clear. This is business but some business choices do involve politics. The green movement covers all spectrums. Fascist BNP types do masquearde in 'alternative' and 'green' groups. The BNP was one of the first groups to call for 'no' to the flouridation of water.
It's my decision and I am giving the NGG the benefit of the doubt here. I understand the comments against going but I will judge the NGG after the event. Be clear about it organisers - I'm sure there are other sites and interested farmers in the North. And there are people who would like you to say something and act.
Green Man
Betrayed by the NGG
15.08.2006 20:33
Green anti-fascist
An example of why no antiracist should be at the NGG (from Lancaster UAF blog)
17.08.2006 23:02
Category: General Posted by: Antifascist 5 Comments
The far right British National Party awarded a prize to an activist jailed for a violent attack on an asylum seeker.
The BNP's Worcester organiser Kevin Hughes was handed a two and a half year sentence for a vicious racially-motivated assault on an Iraqi man.
Today the neo-Nazi party boasted on their website that Hughes was also voted 'Activist of the Year' at their annual Red White and Blue festival of hate.
Anti-fascist campaigners said that despite the sharp suits Nick Griffin's party remained a rag-bag of violent thugs.
Sabby Dhalu of Unite Against Fascism commented: 'The BNP tries to reinvent itself as a legitimate political party but clearly this shows the true face of the BNP; an organisation that celebrates violent attacks on BME communities and is fundamentally a fascist and racist party.'
Terry Fitzpatrick, an anti-fascist activist, added: 'It says a lot about the BNP that a man sent to prison is considered a political prisoner and a hero.'
BNP activists at their convention awarded Hughes the honour 'in absentia' and also donated cash for a banner to portray him as a political prisoner.
In addition to his violent attack on an asylum seeker, Hughes is an agent for Reddich BNP councillor Brian Turner, who was recently found guilty of a racially aggravated public order offence. It has been reported that Turner has a history of previous convictions.
Mohammed Azam, a Labour Party NEC member said: 'Both of these cases show the true nature of the BNP: a violent, racist and fascist organisation that is not fit for public office.'
Arnold
Never Forget
18.08.2006 09:40
The NGG organisers knew about this well in advance, they had every opportunity to make a positive stand against racism and against the BNP - They explicitly chose not to do so. They also chose not to issue a statement or apology about the matter in the hope that those wishing to attend NGG would be kept in the dark about their collusion with organised fascism. We have been treated to the ridiculous spectacle of the BNP packing up their tent as the NGG pitch theirs.
The NGG organisers may think that they have got away with their thoughtless, irresponsible, and treacherous behaviour, but they haven't. The way they have acted will be remembered by antifascists and by Green activists who DO care about the rise of the BNP, it will haunt the NGG and each and every one of the NGG organisers.
Antifascist
Stu
18.08.2006 10:09
U.N.C.L.E.
Nick Cass
18.08.2006 10:22
AntiBNP
Cass
18.08.2006 10:34
NGG great day
17.08.2006 00:27
Just left the site after a very successful Red White & Blue BNP festival which i organised - photos on our website www.bnp.org.uk. It is late and I have just left the site because i was made to feel so welcome by our green comrades. We may not have much in common but we do have some things, one being a green environment, and the other the love of our countryside and nature.
Remember folks i am from a hippie background.
After i bought a bottle of organic apple juice i mulled around chatting to people setting up their pitches, actually giving one or two Freedom papers away to people who recognised me. Remember not all greenies are against the BNP, people were certainly friendly enough.
I had a tour around the sauna, various chill out zones and i honestly wished i could have stayed for the night. After wishing the people good luck for their festival and the best of luck with the weather, we shook hands and i got back into my car and came home.
What an interesting week i have just had, thanks for the hospitality.
Nick Cass
Bramley Red
Cash
18.08.2006 10:46
StayAtHome :(
Cash
18.08.2006 10:56
Northern Green
Northern Green
Politics
18.08.2006 11:20
Politics, real politics, is something most of us can't escape from; it's about being in debt or being homeless or being racially abused; it's about not being able to get a job and struggling on income support. Politics is all around us, and most of us can't opt out of it.
This farmer certainly understood politics enough to realise that there might be a problem with the BNP and warn you about it didn't he Stu? (Of course he overestimated you.) And I think he knows enough about politics to know why he has people protesting, and why the BNP have been back to his farm 4 years in a row.
FAO Stu
Ethical choices
18.08.2006 15:54
Trendy Liberal
Choices
18.08.2006 17:18
...
I am not shit stirring
19.08.2006 00:24
Unlike some of you who slags me off or calls for physical attacks against me, i am interested in the way others live, and i have had plenty of experience living with others.. I have engaged in more cultures than probably everyone reading this by the time i was twenty, due to my travels in my sporting days.
I have plenty of respect for others, and wish for them the chance to live their lives as they see fit in their own free country's. I also wish the same for my people and i have respect for my own history, culture and heritage and this is where we differ.
Nick Cass
Nick Cass
19.08.2006 08:53
Milky Bar Kid
Sid Williamson
19.08.2006 09:19
REALLY Nick? So what do you think of the VNN rantings of your BNP comrade Sid Williamson as reported on 'The New Face Of The BNP' thread? He may be more thick than you (and probably more thick than everyone else on the planet), but is he just a wee bit more honest? Will you be calling for his expulsion, I doubt it?
Ian Jones
Nick Cass & The NGG
19.08.2006 09:26
Disgusted with the NGG
Just desserts
19.08.2006 13:47
Sod the NGG!
Nick Cass
19.08.2006 14:44
What he doesn't present is his racist analysis of why he's in this situation or his fascist aspirations to reverse his fortunes and the fortunes of the people who identify with this image.
Now however hard he tries to deny it Nick Cass believes that race is the defining factor in human society as does every member of the BNP (albeit in a different ways). Basically he believes that at the top are the Jews, controlling the money and property, causing division and confusion so as to quietly profit from everyones sweat and blood. At the bottom are Black people, stupid, crude and criminal. And in the middle a multitude of shades and deficiences. And all these people, whilst uncontrolled are making it impossible for the only true and rightful inheritors of the earth and it's bounty to reap their reward: the white Christian male.
Cass is smart, he's not about to just come out and boldly state how he veiws the world as much as he not about to tell you the reality of the BNP plan (a 'solution' based on this worldveiw is not that hard to imagine). Instead he will slither around Indymedia, presenting an image of himself as compassionate and concerned, misunderstood and villified by rabid and out of touch Anarchist anti-fascists.
Cass is a racist and a fascist, make no fucking mistake. He should not allowed anywhere near our movement or on indymedia.
NO PLATFORM FOR FASCISTS!!!!!!
Rudeboy
Update
22.08.2006 19:48
AntiBNP