Offering support on community issues would provide an alternative to state agencies like CAB.

Spread your remit beyond the anarchist community and you'll be getting closer to direct democracy- and far more of a threat to the government than any brickthrowing knobheads.

However to gain the trust of a wider audience you will need:

to be able to provide adeqaute, organised, reliable support that gets results (professional volunteers, volunteers trained in legal/government prrocedural matters)- this will need a positive (i.e. non-over-agressive/diplomatic) relationship to be forged with various agencies.

Most importantly the social centres must be and be seen to exist to *serve* the community and not be just an indoctrination apparatus. Using such a facility to directly promote any ideology is dodgy ground (evangelism), counterproductive and ultimately damaging.

Apart from that the average bod doesn't give a fuck about ideology, they find it eiter boring or distrustful. They just want help with their beneifits, debts, buss passes, court case etc. You can help people and be seen to be a force for good, the reputational gain is incalculable. You seen to be zealous and ineffective, coveresely the damage is incalculable.

Use a non-heirarchical model but keep the politics organisational & in the back office. Otherwise you just remain a clique that will scare the wider public off.

That make any sense?

In reply to M who seems to think that social centres should mean social services...

I'd say that social centres could be many things, it's pretty much up to the people who make them happen. Generally the people who are making them happen do not want to become social workers or run services because they believe in communities of self help and mutual aid, and aim to foster a DIY anarchist culture.

So, M, in that spirit, I suggest that you go and do it yourself. Start the project you are suggesting and see if you get any support from others. I doubt you will but I could be wrong. I've been wrong about many things... such as the ability of social centres to foster a culture of DIY.

I'd hope social centres could aspire to be more than a non-hierarchical version of the CAB- what exactly would be the point of helping people with their bus pass problems or whatever if the politics are kept "in the back office"? Filling in the gaps in social services provision with well meaning volunteers is just helping the state to function unless its at least trying to part of an oppositional movement. True, when you do this kind of stuff you do indeed find that most people don't give a fuck about the politics, but its at least a chance to try and introduce collective solutions and direct action responses to common problems ("letting agency kept your deposit? well, you could go to the small claims court, or between us we can see how many people we can rustle up to occupy their office..."). And so try to spread an antagonistic and confrontational attitude to the various private and state organisations that fuck us over, rather than having "a positive (i.e. non-over-agressive/diplomatic) relationship ... with various agencies"...

You could carry on preaching to the converted and be doomed to a clique.

"I suggest that you go and do it yourself." if I were such a professional I'd try to find at least another person to start it up. Bust sadly, all I can find are immature idiots who are doomed to their own marginalisation in their defeatist unrealistic logic:

Not helping people with the REAL problems the most face is going to spread things about as far as the end of your nose. Fostering petulent and unproductive aggression with the only people that can help them (other NMW wage slaves) will engender great trust and respect.

It's rather sad to see all these so-called anarchists that affiliate themselves romantically with movements such as Chiapas and Revolutionary Spain and sneer at anyone that suggests they try aspire to social responsibility.

Keep smoking the soap bar and drinking the cheap cider and listening to RATM; man!

Meanwhile, I'll keep realistic conversations to people who actually want to achieve something progressive in the world we actually live in and limit my discourse with fashion victims who just wear anarchism as a badge or a defeatist cop-out.

If that's the best anyone on IMC has then I weep for the future.

Man!

I've been on this newswire since the first week of its inception (go research any post beginning with "m"). I'm associated withh various "old skool" anarchist movements sucha crass. I've outlined a successfull paradigm of a certain Lomdon collective that has beeen been hidden. You can kiss my arse sideways you ineffectual idiots.

Nite nte .

I'm signing off permanently. You are just as much the enemy as the SWP or YCP.

Sleep in your own piss!

> You could carry on preaching to the converted and be doomed to a clique.

Which converted would that be then? The people that come to gigs because their friends are playing? The people who come to see a film because they read about the film nights in the Metro? The people who come to a cafe night because they've heard about the cheap food or the wild caberet? Do you really think that those people represent a clique? Do you really think that they are all converted?

> "I suggest that you go and do it yourself." if I were such a professional I'd try
> to find at least another person to start it up. Bust sadly, all I can find are immature
> idiots who are doomed to their own marginalisation in their defeatist unrealistic logic:

Guess what... perhaps such 'professionals' are already previding such services
through the many voluntary organisation that already exist. For example... the
advisory service for squatters.

Your insults do nothing to serve your arguement and if social centres are so
marginalised then how comes actual social services professionals have ended
up refering homless asylum seekers to them or how comes community
theatre groups are using these spaces to rehearse?

> Not helping people with the REAL problems the most face is going to
> spread things about as far as the end of your nose. Fostering petulent and
> unproductive aggression with the only people that can help them
> (other NMW wage slaves) will engender great trust and respect.

Ah I see, the people who go to a social centre to use the free internet access
to contact their friends and families or look for jobs are not REAL people
with REAL problems. The people who crash at social centres for a few nights
because they've got problems at home or are inbetween homes... they don't
have REAL problems either.

> It's rather sad to see all these so-called anarchists that affiliate themselves
> romantically with movements such as Chiapas and Revolutionary Spain and
> sneer at anyone that suggests they try aspire to social responsibility.

No everyone who involves themselves with social centres would describe
themselves as anarchists (and nor would the zapatistas incidently) and
what makes your vision of social responsibility better than anyone elses.
If you feel sneered at then perhaps it because you have choosen to
attempt to influence what goes on a social centres by writing a comment
in the newswire rather than getting involved with one of the social centres
where a few people are already putting in a lot of effort.


> blah blah blah blah dee blah blah blah.... man! Smash the state, man!
> Keep smoking the soap bar and drinking the cheap cider and listening
> to RATM; man!

I must be going to the wrong social centre as I have no idea what RATM
is, rarely come across many people smoking weed and find far more
brew crew out in the streets. Are you actually talking about social centres
or the living room of some dopehead mates?

> I'll keep realistic conversations to people who actually want to achieve
> something progressive in the world we actually live in and limit my
> discourse with fashion victims who just wear anarchism as a badge
> or a defeatist cop-out.

Go on then. Nobody is stopping you having 'realistic' conversations,
it's just that some of us are rather busy doing things already and
perhaps don't think too much of armchair critics. I won't bother
commenting on yet another immature insult about anarchism.

> If that's the best anyone on IMC has then I weep for the future.

Yes, well join the club.

> I've been on this newswire since the first week of its inception
> I'm associated withh various "old skool" anarchist movements
> sucha crass.

Thanks for the credentials.... your point is what?

> You can kiss my arse sideways you ineffectual idiots.

Ineffectual because the world is still being torn apart by rampant greed
and we've failed to bring about 'the revolution'? Or ineffectual because
we've opened and held building which have provided resources, hosted
meetings, given people roofes over their heads, a place to sleep, a
place to eat and share the company of others, facilitated the sharing
of skills, the organising of events and actions, the distribution of
information, raised loads of money for causes ignored by mainstream
charities etc etc?

Yes, clearly, what idiots we are. What a waste of time it's all been.
Instead of haveing open meetings and reaching consensus about
proposals from those who bothered to turn up, we obviously
should have taken instruction off the web from those who know best
(having associated with famous anarchist musicians).

> I'm signing off permanently. You are just as much the enemy
> as the SWP or YCP. Sleep in your own piss!

I'm sure your powerful reasoned and persuasive contributions
will be greatly missed.

Independent advice centres, which provide similar services to CABs, were started 30-odd years ago by communities in communities, to address their needs. Almost all were begun by squatting empty buildings, and then run by volunteers; they were organised in a federation (Federation of Independent Advice Centres, now called Advice UK), and many campaigned along with providing services. They were collectively run, and even when some got paid staff and rented buildings, they maintained pay parity and were run non-hierarchically, with rubber-stamp management committees that met infrequently and deferred to weekly meetings of staff and volunteers; they were representative through encouraging local community members who'd come in for advice to get involved in giving advice or running the centres. (sounds pretty anarchist to me so far..!)

>Which converted would that be then? The people that come to gigs because their friends are playing? The people who come to see a film because they read about the film nights in the Metro? The people who come to a cafe night because they've heard about the cheap food or the wild caberet?

Yes.

>Do you really think that those people represent a clique?

Yes.

>Do you really think that they are all converted?

Convertable's the normal term.

>Guess what... perhaps such 'professionals' are already previding such services
>through the many voluntary organisation that already exist. For example... the
>advisory service for squatters.

If you are going to namedrop them then you should really provide a link to that service since I for one haven't heard of them.

>Your insults do nothing to serve your arguement and if social centres are so
>marginalised then how comes actual social services professionals have ended
>up refering homless asylum seekers to them or how comes community
>theatre groups are using these spaces to rehearse?

Because the state doesn't provide the services it should because it it 'over-stretched' bringing 'democracy' to the oil countries.


>Ah I see, the people who go to a social centre to use the free internet access
>to contact their friends and families or look for jobs are not REAL people
>with REAL problems. The people who crash at social centres for a few nights
>because they've got problems at home or are inbetween homes... they don't
>have REAL problems either.

Each social centre wouldn't exist if it didn't do some good. I think the argument is whether they do enough good and I think M's point was you can do more good by engaging with the local communitys needs before preaching to them. I think the success of Hamas is proof of his argument.


>No everyone who involves themselves with social centres would describe
>themselves as anarchists (and nor would the zapatistas incidently) and
>what makes your vision of social responsibility better than anyone elses.

Hamas again. If it works, it works. You have to question why social centres in the UK have been so ineffectual so far if you want to improve them, which means taking valid criticism.


>If you feel sneered at then perhaps it because you have choosen to
>attempt to influence what goes on a social centres by writing a comment
>in the newswire rather than getting involved with one of the social centres
>where a few people are already putting in a lot of effort.

A lot of wasted effort isn't anything to be proud of. I am one anarchist who avoids 'social centres' like the plague. I hate the sort of anarchist who simply fakes the walk to boost their social life, and social centres to me means a place that is a cross between an army recruitment office and a student cafe.

>I must be going to the wrong social centre as I have no idea what RATM
>is, rarely come across many people smoking weed and find far more
>brew crew out in the streets. Are you actually talking about social centres
>or the living room of some dopehead mates?

Personally I prefer the dopeheads, they are less abusive.

>Go on then. Nobody is stopping you having 'realistic' conversations,
>it's just that some of us are rather busy doing things already and
>perhaps don't think too much of armchair critics. I won't bother
>commenting on yet another immature insult about anarchism.

Ben, don't throw stones. M helped out on my recent doomed effort to organise support for the Ontwappen actions in Holland, and you didn't. So don't get all high and mighty, and consider inviting M back here to comment. M outranks you so far, old credentials count for nothing but recent positive support does. I would bet money that M has done more for anarchy than you have over the past week - he certainly did more than the whole of Faslane peace camp - so hold your tongue or prove me wrong.

>> If that's the best anyone on IMC has then I weep for the future.

>Yes, well join the club.

Yes, it has got to that stage. What a bunch of hypocritcal stay-at-homes we have become. Criticise others if you want but it is really just projection on your part.

>> I've been on this newswire since the first week of its inception
>> I'm associated withh various "old skool" anarchist movements
>> sucha crass.

>Thanks for the credentials.... your point is what?

That he has more credibility than you, or else you would have trumped him with better boasts.



>Ineffectual because the world is still being torn apart by rampant greed
>and we've failed to bring about 'the revolution'? Or ineffectual because
>we've opened and held building which have provided resources, hosted
>meetings, given people roofes over their heads, a place to sleep, a
>place to eat and share the company of others, facilitated the sharing
>of skills, the organising of events and actions, the distribution of
>information, raised loads of money for causes ignored by mainstream
>charities etc etc?

The former.

>Yes, clearly, what idiots we are. What a waste of time it's all been.
>Instead of haveing open meetings and reaching consensus about
>proposals from those who bothered to turn up, we obviously
>should have taken instruction off the web from those who know best
>(having associated with famous anarchist musicians).

Crass were never musicians darling. They were an inspiration to a generation through their lyrics and attitude, and if you shit on that that you deserve to be shat upon yourself. And by your own reasoning, if all you have done in the past week is socialise- amidst state genocide - then you can fuck off and die for all the use you will be.


>I'm sure your powerful reasoned and persuasive contributions
>will be greatly missed.

Yes, they will. Without any further 'credentials' Ben, it is safe to say you wouldn't be missed if you stop posting. Social centres = lifestyle anarchists, the sort of idiots who kick police to boost their sex-life, the sort of anarchists who think they are a tiny elite rather than representative of the vast majority of the public who disregard unjust laws, the sort of egoists who excuse their own inactivity because they are 'spreading the word'.

I happen to know M took part in a direct action over the past week - did you? If not say sorry. His post may not have been his best, but he could be excused for being let down by pseuado-anarchists who 'just can't get arrested just now'. I am reluctant to proviide more details for it would only prove to our real enemies how fucked up the peace-movement has become.

Ben, apologise and your points will stand. Don't apologise and I will rip you and the rest of the so called anarchist movement to shreds.