http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060417fa_fact

"One of the military’s initial option plans, as presented to the White House by the Pentagon this winter, calls for the use of a bunker-buster tactical nuclear weapon, such as the B61-11, against underground nuclear sites."

Nuclear weapons are an initial option ? I suppose that is the only way to stop any attack from escalating in nuclear war, by starting off with nukes. And they are doing this in case Iran gets nukes ? Fucking crazy evil bastards. Maybe the Chinese will take the hint and first-strike the US.

This was predicted long ago, by the people who called it on Iraq and the Bush/PNAC LIES.

They want to destroy the evidence proving that the Iranians were never working on a nuclear device, since the Neo-Fascists know damn well they have no case, and because their failed plot to plant WMD in Iraq blew up in their faces.

The "opposition" in Jordan's eyes is anyone who subscribes to Alex Jones' nutty racist crap.

I'm simultaneously appalled and amused at the authoritarian implications of the comment and then truly baffled at the inference that there may be substantial numbers who are pro-Bush and pro-nuclear war frequenting IMC.

Go tell it to the moutain Moses.

"This was predicted long ago, by the people who called it on Iraq and the Bush/PNAC LIES. "

Yeah, like me. I'm quite ther prophet these days, I even called the number of casualities only to be ridiculed, while the BBC still live in denial. Still, I'm not running around wearing an 'I told you so T-shirt' and I don't see either of your posts as helpful. Neither was mine particularly but at least I included the New Yorker link, a bit of an ommission from the original post. I am grateful for the original post but don't see why it has to name-check mparent all the way through. I haven't visited that blog, but this is too important a story to mix it up with promoting other blogs. If you have the intelligence to come across important stiories like this, you also have the intelligence to rewrite the story in your own words for IM, and include the original links. This is a New Yorker story not a mparent story. Some people obviously don't like mparent, some people won't like any blog, blogs are too personal to quote if you can get the quote elsewhere. At least on stories as important as this you shouldn't mix it up with promoting your favourite other internet sites. Steal, plagarise, cut and paste, rewrite, check for other sources and list them at the end if they add anything, but don't risk diminishing the impact of your story with unneccessary baggage. The article above could have been the best coverage of the story on the internet if it hadn't relied on one blogs opinion of it so much.


"truly baffled at the inference that there may be substantial numbers who are pro-Bush and pro-nuclear war frequenting IMC."

Unfortunately there are - most of their comments are hidden by the team but they are posted. Some of them are trolls, some of them are casual right-wing browsers, but it should be recognised that a lot of Madison Avenue types volunteered to serve after 911, and a big part of their job is to disrupt the anti-war movement with posts in places like here. That's not paranoia, its realpolitik. Sorry for assuming you were one of them, but I've still no proof you aren't although I am assuming you aren't now. You hate conspiracy theory stuff discrediting the IM wire, fair enough, lots of people do use it to try and tar us all with the same brush. Most of the conspiract theory posters also show poor netiquette, but that goes for the rest of us too, and besides, some conspiracies are factual and IM is one of the few places they can be discussed, however stridently/rigorously you criticise them.



Talk about exposing establishment plots or exposing conspiracy theorists are fine pursuits for peace time, at times like this it is better to button your lip and save the newswire for notice of your own successful actions. Deeds not opinions. If you are appalled by the threat of a nuclear first-strike against Iran, then your posts should be about organising actions, or at the very least spreading the facts to a wider public. If you really want to stop this attack before it happens then you have to work with people you don't necessarily like or trust.

Only you can work out a rough value of your own contribution to Indymedia - this is the formula. Contribution = no. of succesful actions posted divided by no. of opinions posted. Saying your opinion is better than someone elses is missing the point, effective action is all that counts and everything else is self-indulgence. An opinion that isn't backed up with an action is a platitude.

Once you have succesfully stopped the Iran war, and once our troops are back from Iraq, then have a big fight between yourselves, but until then try and save your antipathy for each other, turn your competitiveness about your opinions into competitiveness about your actions. I would work with the Flat Earth Society if I thought they could organise an oil-block of the UKs refineries. I don't need to think the earth is flat for that to make sense to me.

Danny, I'm not trying to compete with lunatics, idiots and racists. I'm merely voicing that not every anarchist is a deluded paranoid fool.

There is no scrutiny in the monotonous reposts of prisonplanet & rense type stories. They all follow the same predictable paradigm. Mossad; Israel; CIA; MI5. They is no fact checking. Stories like the "attempted false flag in Basra" are plainly absurd to anyone with a passing interest in arms. There is never any "what if?". They never try to break their own theories before spamming them. All peer review is dismissed.

Anyone who disagrees is a "spook", "liar", "troll" or "sheep". Which is hilarious since he dissent is rarely citing other opinion-based sites.

As far as I can see, right-wing activity here is pretty low, even assuming that most hidden comments are just that.

As for the security services feeling threatened enough to to start disinfo campaigns here... get a grip. The gutter press and Sky are more of an area of interest and Bush & Blair don't need intel officers to swing them.

Do you really think it is such a good idea that the whacko theories of Alex Jones etal are left unchallenged? Just imagine more and more of these loons identifying IMC as a haven for their ZOG nonsense.

Asking questions is never a bad thing. But it's not the questions that irk me. It's the unequivocal statements accompanied by the lack of any proof that gets my goat.

Mossad CIA MI5 are to blame? Prove it! Show us all documentary evidence of agents and their actions. Name names, show us testimony, show us forensic proof! Spare us the Scooby Doo supposition and the ill-informed fantasy. It makes good wanking ammo for people who hate the Bush/Blair regime and Israel, but it's merely seductive fantasy when there is no proof to back it up.

You want to side with that, then fine. I prefer to remain open-minded and challenge every version of events.

That little difference of opinion aside:

"If you are appalled by the threat of a nuclear first-strike against Iran, then your posts should be about organising actions, or at the very least spreading the facts to a wider public. If you really want to stop this attack before it happens then you have to work with people you don't necessarily like or trust."

This should be the IMC masthead or at least a tick box "I agree or disagree" for posting here. Or at least promote the mantra "What can I do to HELP!" and frankly blaming everything on some shadowy cabal is about negative and disempowering as it gets.

If there were any truth in PrisonPlanet I'd be more than happy to eat my own words and be proven wrong. Go out get REAL EVIDENCE and post it! PROVE what a short-sighted twat I am.

Yeah, I am making a resolution to do more myself. I'll e-mail you (Danny) more on this subject.

To paraphrase: Shit or get off the pot!

>As for the security services feeling threatened enough to to start disinfo campaigns here... get a grip.

Well, I know for a fact this happens on other sites and forums less important and political than here, and I know it isn't just politics that is spun, it's also used by the same people as a straight marketing technique. I could even prove it to you which sounds lame since I'm too busy to, but you can check it out for yourself with a little digging. Did you not see the story recently about companies targetting young girls forums with 'personal product recommendations' ? I would be happy to prove it to you at Suzie's wholefood diner, Edinburgh. It's a smallish place, but informal and wholesome. They aren't my formal sponsors yet but once I've named checked them enough on the internet I'm going to print out all my testimonials and try to blag one of their delicious meals for free.

False posts on forums are a part of modern advertising, PR and propaganda. Get over it, more importantly learn to recognise it, and on a similar subject all those emails that you get that say someone finds you sexy or interesting, they are fake too, they only find your credit card sexy and interesting. And Santa Claus was gnawed to death by his reindeer 33 years ago, since then people have been faking his appearance each year.

> The gutter press and Sky are more of an area of interest and Bush & Blair don't need intel officers to swing them.

True, but there are a lot of intel officers around, all of this is read - which makes me feel good whenever I've written a crap long-winded post. Paranoid is foolish, carefulness to the point of paranoia is praiseworthy imao. Not all PRopaganda posts will be overt. There is a lot of private money put into disrupting activist activity and lack of suspicion of this is in itself suspicious so investigate it for yourself. But if you are MI5, I'd be tempted to sell myself out for £120000 a year, the money could achieve more than as I do as an activist. I'd give it to CAAT minus a few diners at Suzies.

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/london/2003/09/278079.html

THE defence giant BAE Systems has been linked to a private intelligence-gathering operation that secretly infiltrated anti-arms trade groups.The Sunday Times has seen evidence that the company, then called British Aerospace and the UK’s main defence contractor, paid hundreds of thousands pounds to a consultancy run by the widow of a wartime secret agent. The consultancy was controlled by Evelyn Le Chene, a grandmother from Gravesend in north Kent and a member of the Special Forces Club. For at least four years Le Chene, 67, sent BAE regular reports detailing the activities of the Campaign Against Arms Trade (CAAT), a reputable Christian-based group. BAE paid her £120,000 a year.

Oh, I'm not doubting the xistence of plants. But to my knowledge they tend to be operating in a narrowly focussed sphere. LIke say, the MET may infiltrate the Wombles. MI5/Special Branch Combat 18 or ALF or the IRA etc.

And I'm sure that various police forces pay a good deal of attention to posts relating to certain actions and probably compile dossiers and collate photographs. All standard Det Const. Plod stuff.

But the idea that everyone who thinks prisonplanet is a load of shit is a plant/spook is just barmy.

If anything I could see Alex Jones being a more likely candidate for state-sponsored disinfo- the cavalier attitude to accuracy is shocking enough to be outright propaganda of some description.

A good plant knows better than to be anything other than a dogmatic zealot. I'm too much of a gobshite to pull that off hahahaha! A good plant will try to gain the trust of key targets. A good plant buries himself like a tapeworm and then compromises people when the time is right to convert them to assets. Agood plant tells people exactly what they WANT to hear and abuses the trustgained to positio them.

MI5 don't waste their time on ineffectual winbags like Jordan... and me for that matter! It's just as logistically as daft as the notion that we are all being tracked by satellite.

The notion that there is a big warehouse somewhere full of little NMW disinfo "executives" frantically tapping away counterarguments to prisonplanet is just too funny really.

The notion that there is a virtually ministry of intelligence service disinformation keping us in a constant state of false reality is bonkers too. They tried it in the Eastern Bloc and it didn't have much success. Plus, I think there'd be more than a couple of whistleblowers appearing.

Sure, you are going to have things covered up on a case-by-case basis now and then. But, if nothing the Dodgy Dossier showed us how intolerant MI5 & 6 are of the HMGvt spin doctors overstepping the mark.

But, I agree, if I read your implication correctly, that private business concerns pose more of a threat when it comes to shit-stirring.

Police nabbed one guy daft enough to boast about selling coke on Friends Reunited. If they employ someone to read Friends Reunited then I'm betting they read here too. We could test this theory by you offering to sell me some coke.

Lots of Madison Avenue types did volunteer to diseminate right-wing, pro-war propaganda immediately after 911 for their government, some of them were open to talking about that and it was widely reported at the time. Think of them as the government patriotic free version of  http://www.scl.cc/home.php

>The notion that there is a virtually ministry of intelligence service disinformation keping us in a constant state of false reality is bonkers too.

Wasn't Alistair Campbell a virtual minister ?

>It's just as logistically as daft as the notion that we are all being tracked by satellite.

See, that's you spreading conspiracy loon theories, I hadn't even heard that one or thought of it but now I firmly believe it. It certainly isn't logistically impossible for any reason I can understand, you'd be surprised how far computing has come, every 18 months it doubles in performance. A safe rule of thumb is if they can do it they will do it, they will figure out why afterwards rather than delay. Shit, now I'm going to be carring a black umbrella everywhere I go, at least I have an excuse to always have it up where I live.

>They tried it in the Eastern Bloc and it didn't have much success.

It had some success I think you'll find. I think it is naive to assume it didn't happen here too, probably to a far greater degree. In the Eastern Bloc they didn't really need to persuade you of anything, they just had to silence you forcefully. Everyone here had a false idea of how strong the Soviet Union was, how many missiles and tanks they had, how much of a threat they posed and how awful it was to be a Soviet citizen. Except for a few billionaires, more Russians were better off under communism but still we think, even with the facts, we are taught by television news to ignore big lies. Why do you think we had such a skewed picture of the Soviet Union ? It wasn't accident that we ignored the facts, we were lied to as we are lied to on a regular, ongoing and methodical way. Now 'we' sank the Soviets, it's hard to justify the expense without building up Islam as the next 'credible threat', and the same forces are at power, the same appliance of marketing science. If a technique is useful to the business world then why do you think it wouldn't be used in political spheres ? Please don't tell me you trust politicians more than ad-men.

>Plus, I think there'd be more than a couple of whistleblowers appearing.

That's hopeful, you see how we treat whistleblowers. Besides, what is to blow the whistle on ? It's in the public domain although it isn't advertised heavily, and it is minimised or just plain sworn to secrecy if only in commercial contract. Have you never signed the Offficial Secrets act ? I have, whatever I was supposed not to tell you was so boring I've forgotten it, but they are pretty intimidating forms even to free thinkers, and free thinking is not a promotable quality in most workplaces.

>Sure, you are going to have things covered up on a case-by-case basis now and then. But, if nothing the Dodgy Dossier showed us how intolerant MI5 & 6 are of the HMGvt spin doctors overstepping the mark.

Eh, didn't the head of MI6 make it up and then cover it up at the Hutton enquiry ?
 http://www.washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040506-040226-1171r.htm
Yeah, Blairs poodle. Doesn't really back up your point too well and it's blown your cover - can I call you John yet ? Isn't it just staff who have to call you 'M' ?

Listen, if they were ready to stage a coup against Wilson then they should be ashamed of themselves for not removing Blair from power. They could rig up Thatchers shrivelled cadaver to life-support and install her as head of state for three months, as long as they withdrew the troops and tried Blair for treason, I'd not protest. Until that happens, they can kiss my ass.

>But, I agree, if I read your implication correctly, that private business concerns pose more of a threat when it comes to shit-stirring.

Anyone with money or people, cults too, rich individuals, businesses, smart programmers. If you hate the conspiracy loons so much you've probably pointed out they themselves could be seen as disruptive to the peace movement and so perhaps a deliberate governement plot, but that would be making the cardinal mistake of assuming someone else should care about something just because you yourself do.

Danny,

Hmm, do you know that CID/DS were monitoring that site rather than the usual source of police intl- people grassing up?

Oh Scarlet played the good little soldier. But that didn't stop people like Kelly (MI6 most likely) blabbing to the press- he was undoubtedly not the only person haemorraging incredulity.

"Never trust a Campbell!": wasn't he CCed on the latest leaks regarding Iran? Or was that some other Campbell?

As they say round these parts: there's a face you'd never tire of kicking.

Whe was the last successful prosecution under the OSA? Sounds like a joke, the punchline being "It's on a need to know basis!"

That's one thing I have to take my hat off to Jungle Jim Heseltine for (Westland).

I don't doubt that the feasibilty of total satellite tracking is burgeoning or that geeks are wanking themselves red raw over at MIT on the subject. But as soon as it's even halfway doable, it'll be heralded by a million media promo-pieces promising us the utopia in security and policing blah blah blah. Just like the genome project, radium and the hulahoop.

Wilson & the spooks: well yeah, they do have a history of erring on the Tory side. But back in those days people were still able to recruit private armies and back then civil unrest was rocking the boat big time.

At any rate, it wouldn't take a massive amount of people being in the know to ake Wilson out. The aftermath would be the messy end requiring a lot of bums on seats.

An effort to plan & execute a false flag in the UK by MI5 and then subsequently cover it up and promote false stories as way more complex. Lying always is. And the suggestion that MI5 has access to that amount of people who'd happily become complicit mass murders (in such a DIRECT fashion) and traitors is just absurd.

Most organised criminals get caught because someone can't keep their mouth shut for some reason or another (See: Dodgy Dossier).

The biggest crime has as already stated being solved but sadly not been taken up by the CPS.

The Dodgy Dossirer; The lies to Parliament; the manipulation of the press; the failure in the duty of protection to the country and its troops and last but not least the murder of countless civillians in an illgeal war.

"A senior Iranian presidential aide said the report was a joke and that any such attack was highly unlikely."

They might not be about to attack Iran. Bush described Hersh's report as pure speculation but never denied it. Straw immediately denied it. I don't think such high profile figures would be commenting on such a report unless they wanted to promote it. It helps give them something to negotiate with, a stick at the table. The Iranians aren't blinking, they know they face months of this.
A 'mad dog' policy is where you pretend to be crazy and unpredicatable through your actions to intimidate and confuse. Trouble is, to be credible as a deterrence, you really do have to do crazy things occassionally. If the Iranians don't back down, do you really think the neo-cons are going to back down when they are likely to be out of power soon. If the neo-cons back down, the US will be mightily diminshed upon the world stage, and if they attack, we are screwed. This might be a false threat, and even so could still end up in war so we have to plan for the worst. It could be Iran, it could be Venezuala, neither or both. The only way to ensure neither is to eject Bush and Blair regardless - now.

There is no scrutiny in the monotonous reposts of the BBC, which is why we turn to "whacko" alternative theories.

If al Qaeda are responsible for everything, show us the proof and documented evidence, presented in a court of law.

The truth is suppressed by ommision from the mainstream media and when that fails, by ridicule.

Then there is always accusations of "racism" as a last resort. You are doing a great job, deluding yourself and others.

>There is no scrutiny in the monotonous reposts of the BBC, which is why we turn to "whacko" alternative theories.

If you want media analysis, I suggest you try medialens. If you want some action, hang around.

>If al Qaeda are responsible for everything, show us the proof and documented evidence, presented in a court of law.

Al Qaeda are responsible for their own actions. In the fog of war and without a free press which actions are Al Qaedas are shrouded. I am not responsible for al qaedas actions, I am responsible for my governments crimes, most of which are quite obvious.

>The truth is suppressed by ommision from the mainstream media and when that fails, by ridicule.

I'm not trying to ridicule anyone, I have a gallows humour you'd appreciate if you knew me.

>Then there is always accusations of "racism" as a last resort. You are doing a great job, deluding yourself and others.
Where did I call anyone a racist who isn't ? People who value the few thousand European/American deaths over the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi and Afghan deaths ? Well, why does one dead american get more press coverage than a thousand dead foreigners if not for racist reasons ? Why do we only count USuk dead ?

Sorry, Spook, but Seymour Hersh is not synonymous with those other writers you cited.

Wow, I must be waaaaay off, if that comment has elicited so much White Noise ...

This was predicted long ago, by the people who called it on Iraq and the Bush/PNAC LIES.

They want to destroy the evidence proving that the Iranians were never doing what they are again claiming - again, without evidence - since the Neo-Fascists know damn well they have no case, and because their failed plot to plant WMD in Iraq blew up in their faces. With the 'sites' melted all to *&%&, they are free to say whatever they please, and the Appeasement of the Neo-Fascists will continue, as will their slaughter.

It's been a LOOONG time since IMC UK seen endless reposts of BBC stories. They those few that are posted seem only to be left standing if the fact the BBC are running a certain stories is news itself.

You want alternatives? MAKE alternatives. Spamming a commercial site like PrisonPlant or UFO-spotters ZOG site like Rense isn't an alternative to the BBC.

If these sites had any palpable proof that ISrael is so deeply involved in The War on Terror[ism] why don't they publish it? Because, the dan't have any names, and documentary evidence that back up their supposition. They don't have any significant professional support.

I suggest you go to some place like Stormfront where you'll get all the assent you so desperately crave.

The ZOG community is well-catered for elsewhere.

Sorry, if I'm sterootyping all fascists as tinfoil wearing loons. Well, not sorry, just a caveat in case some pedant throws it back at me.

As for asking Danny to present a case against Al Qaeda in a court of law. Is that the best you can offer? Even if Danny had been a renowned proponent of "the Evils of Al Qaeda", he'd could single-handed round them all up and you'd still say they were all fakes.

You aren't interested in objective analysis. You just want to hear how right and enlightened you are and tell us how stupid and manipulated we are.

I've got "news", you are just as stupid and manipulated as the rest of us. Get over it. There's no hiding place from being a talking ape.

Thank-you MorleyJoyRig, that's quite enough our of you.

They want to destroy the evidence proving that the Iranians were never working on a nuclear device, since the Neo-Fascists know damn well they have no case, and because their failed plot to plant WMD in Iraq blew up in their faces.

Um, talking of evidence, do you have for your allegation that the "Coalition" attempted to plant WMDs?