...

Simply stating that someone is a "conspiraloon" does not automatically mean that they are deluded. This individual has stated a reasonable case regarding problems with the official events of 11.9.2001, if you disagree you really have to state a reasonable case for doing so.

They were pilots. They spent tens of thousands of dollars becoming qualified over nearly two years, hundreds of hours of simulator time on doing just what you say is so difficult. The individual you refer to who wasn't safe in a Cessna wasn't a pilot on the day - he was muscle in the back.

Go and look under your bed for Elvis.

The poster rgularly spams IMC with nutty theories that have been long thrashed to death. Raking over old crap doesn't eqal news.

Clearly, Neil, the shills are not about to do that (present anything of reason). That's not their job. Their purpose is to muddy the waters and influence the undecided.

Miss Profanity Key - take a look at what the people who actually met and tried to train the alleged box-cutter perps said, which was far less fanciful than the garbage emanating from you ('r brain??)


Not one of the hijackers was deemed fit to perform this most elementary exercise by himself.

In fact, here’s what their flight instructors had to say about the aptitude of these budding aviators:

Mohammed Atta: "His attention span was zero."
 http://www.willthomas.net/911/911_Commission_Hearing.htm

Khalid Al-Mihdhar: "We didn't kick him out, but he didn't live up to our standards."
 http://100777.com/node/237

Marwan Al-Shehhi: “He was dropped because of his limited English and incompetence at the controls.”
 http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/9-11/9-11_hijackers_still_alive.htm

Salem Al-Hazmi: "We advised him to quit after two lessons.”
 http://www.willthomas.net/Books_Videos/911_Investigations_Stand_Down.htm

Hani Hanjour: "His English was horrible, and his mechanical skills were even worse. It was like he had hardly even ever driven a car. I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon. He could not fly at all.”
 http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hanjour.html

you and Elvis - what a team.

Can't fly? Yeh, right. Try this:

 http://www.911myths.com/html/flight_school_dropouts.html

Change the record, lads.

Or did they not really exist...

Yeah, because obviously it's so easy to earn an instrument rating from a flying school. Maybe they just gave it to them in order to make them go away.

"Jarrah had obtained his license to fly small planes, and began training to fly large jets late in 2000"

"Both earned their instrument certificates from the FAA in November. On November 5th, Atta purchased flight deck videos for Boeing 747-200 and Boeing 757-200 models from Sporty's Pilot Shop in Batavia, Ohio.

On December 11th, Atta purchased additional flight deck videos for Airbus A320 and Boeing 767-300ER models from the same store in Ohio. On December 21st, both Atta and Marwan are granted their pilot licenses"

"Hanjour gained his FAA commercial pilot's license in April of 1999"
"Hanjour obtained a commercial pilots license in 1999 and according to the chief instructor, "Despite Hanjour's poor reviews, he did have some ability as a pilot, "There's no doubt in my mind that once that [hijacked jet] got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it," he said."

Of course, I know it's pointless trying to argue with you. But don't you think it just slightly possible that people in the middle-east might just have been pissed off enough at US foreign policy, and competent enough, to carry out this attack? To me it seems kind of racist to believe that arabs are not capable of doing this. To be honest, I wasn't surprised. Anyone who looks at US foreign policy could see they were going to create this sort of reaction.

But no, noone is capable of doing anything independently, because the puppet masters control everybody and every event in the world, with special satellites that shoot mind-control beams into our heads. Every conflict, every major political event, has obviously been planned by the Jews, in order so that they can.....well, what exactly. Surely if they were all powerful, there wouldn't be much need to do things like this, since they already control the US, Europe, Al Qaeda, maybe not Asia. Unless the Chinese are in on it too? What do you think?

It's pretty elementary group psychology. You blame everything on your notional enemy and everything is happily stowed away in a little safe box called "evil".

It's dehumanisation. PNAC are "EVIL" al qaeda are "EVIL" fascists are "EVIL" anaarchists are "EVIL" ALF are "EVIL" fox hunters are "EVIL". It serves some basic tasks. Firstly, you ascribe all woes to something you have no responsibility for. Secondly, you imply that if the responsible parties didn't exist all would be hunky-dory. Thirdly, it reinforces your own self-worth by robbing others of their humanity (see 'dehumanisation') and in doing so t gives you licence to treat them in ways you would not wish to be treated yourself. Like all zealotry however, you need to a group identity to reassure yourself that you aren't deluding yourself. This process requires constant evangalism, and for that to work you need an unending supply of proof.

Hell, just about everyone is doing it. Bush & Blair are doing it with militant Islam and anything else that requires self-reproach regarding policy/action. The militant muslims are doing it with regard to the West. Our ZOG trolls are doing it with the Bush regime. Which brings us back to the mobius loop.

That isn't to say that Bush/Blair haven't done some reprehensible things. Truly sick things. Nor that militant Islam hasn't either. The flipside of dehumanising concepts such as "EVIL!" lead people to forgive themselves for their attrocities and misdeeds because their zealotry tells them the rules are different for them because they are "righteous" and after all their targets aren't worthy human beings. This is how terrorism (ideologically motivated targetting of civillians) functions.

I think the 911 Truth movement encompasses a broad church: self-denial that such a thing could happen to America because such a hideous blow is simply beyond comprehension (especially the closer your connection to the victims); the "all is fair" point scorers who will latch on to anything that they can throw at their "enemy"; and them we have the cynical profiteers who see that there is money to be made from fear and fan the flames in order to shift product; and finally there are the derranged and ill-informed who genuinely believe.

Yes, it isn't coincedental that the same description applies neatly to what Bush & Blair did with 9/11 to sell the war in Iraq.

I just find it quite sad that a place like IMC has attracted so many people that can't transcend the same MO as Bush & Blair.Very disheartening to be honest. It's situations like this I often wonder if we'll ever evolve beyond the talking ape group psychology of mutual distrust and dehumanisation to get close to a co-operative culture. Sometimes I think it'd be no sad loss to the ecosystem if we just commited species suicide as soon as possible. Other days not.

So, basically what we have here is on one side, we have the Bush & Blair propaganda machine and on the other we have the old Zionist Dr Evil Theory worshippers and anyone caught in the middle is universally hated. Well I'm as proud of my choice of enemies as am my friends.

Fuck both sides!

Jordan the troll is no better than Rumsfeld in my humble opinion. Neithe of them can be trusted to present anything that approaches objective reflection. Both use emotive arguments. Both stoop to dehumanisation of their opponents. Both sink into the mire of downrights lies when backed into a corner.

... you can, at this point, play one of two games:

1.Shoot the messenger.

This is easy, it involves completly ignoring the rights of others and the rightness of the argument and, instead, employs the base tactic of insult.

Conspiraloons

Elvis

etc etc

No focus on fact.

2.Model agnostic.

This is hard, it involves not believing in anything - however attractive the thought of 'knowing the truth' appears.

I have seen and read the testimony of pilots, both commercial and military, who are suspicious of the alledged flight manouvers. The quotes from the flight training schools are genuine. The execution of difficult manouvers in the most heavily guarded air space in the world under stress and imminant death in unfamiliar aircraft following minimal training seem ... a little too hollywood ... to me.

If those who find in too hard to adopt model agostisim want to 'beleive' the official conspiracy, that's fine. If they want to use the open possibilty here of debate and information exchange to bully and ridicule like little school children, that's fine - for them. For the rest of us it is boring to say the least, and not a little annoying. Still that's the point isn't it?

Focus on personaility and avoid information.

Having used these boards for a number of years, I can't help noticing how very few 911 posts aren't accompanied by these purile juvenile tactics.

Whatever.

As the 911 truth wagon rolls on (to borrow from the loud mouthed rightwing lexicon) it will pick up more passengers. It can't be stopped. Whether it will arrive, like the 7th cavalry, on time to save amerika and the world from totalitarian dictatorship, remains to be seen.

If it doesn't, I will thank those loud mouthed rightwing spammers here, if it the last thing I do (then again why bother, they have already cost themselves dear).

Jack, I do hope when you are refeering to "right-wing spammers" you mean Jordan Thornton. His arguments bear a striking resemblence to those of right-wing militias, "Zionists control the government man and the security services are their tools man!!!" and lately he's felt comfortable enough to show his true colours here and accuse some journalists of deception based purely on their Jewish names (perceived ethnicity). That in case it escaped your notice is defacto and dejure racism:

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/04/337411.html?c=on#c145876

Now we get to the name calling: spook; liar; troll; shill etc etc etc You seeing the bigger picture yet?

IMC is a venue for people with some level of affinity towards anarchism. It's raison d'etre isn't to be all things to all (wo)men. Racism and ZOG theories are, and this may comes as a surprise to yourself & Jordan, NOT a common feature of anarchist thinking. Again, this may be a little bit of a shock, but they are profoundly right-wing. "Right-wing" doesn't equal anyone who disagrees with you.

The pair of you have been spamming various IMC locations for some time now with theories that have no professional support, no verifiable documentary evidence and that often rest on an (unsubstantiated) notion that Zionists are prime movers in a deception.

For some time now, you have been met with a substantial amout of examination of "your" claims (cut & pastes from nutcase ZOG sites like PrisonPlanet & Rense) throughout yourselves have been the ones to start throughing the dummy and start with the name calling. So, don't go whining to some higher moral ground when people who are veterans of "The Awkward Squad" start returning fire and are better shots.

If you want a venue where you can dictate "consesus" then I suggest that the pair of you go off and start your 911Loon forum and you can censor anything who disagrees with you. I'm sure if you asked nicely here people would even point you in the right direction in getting it set up. But don't come to IMC whining about people shouting you down; democracy: like it or lump it.

If you want to end our ceasfire and resume hostilities I'm ready to go. If you do, keep up the sideswiping.

Love & kisses and a BIG hug!