Quote: "Blair is now very much the lame duck Prime Minister. This has a good deal to do with Iraq, not least the perception that Blair has surrendered British foreign policy to George Bush, who is unloved here, to put it mildly."

Bollocks! George Bush was re-elected with a massive majority last November. Tony Blair is also still quite popular too for having helped to rid the world of one of the most evil, cruel and despicable dictators since Hitler - Saddam Hussein. The majority of the British people fully support the war on terrorism aswell, not wanting to surrender to a gang of international Islamic fundamentalist terrorist thugs, who murdered dozens of British people in July!

I would suggest that you live on Planet "Westminster Bubble", where reality does not enter, and you make all the headlines.

Well, concerned, Tony Blair, is most definitely a lame duck. Some of us would say he became a lame duck the moment he stood shoulder-to-shoulder with George Bush... and most of us don't forget that moment, because it made the previously relatively neutral UK a target.

People have memories, y'know. Yours seems very selective. How convenient for you.

So lets get this straight. We have thugs on one side killing dozens in London
and good people on the other killing HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS in Iraq

But yea that brutal evil corrupt regime since Hitler ie Saddams waas alrite wih your pals the US/UK governments during the 80's. They sold him weapons supported his war with Iran. What exactly are you concerned about? That there are some people that see furtherthan the mainstream media bullshit that we have to put up with every day?

Concerned you deluded fool, I don't recall voting for George Bush, and I don't recall anybody else in the UK voting for him either. Obviously, in your US-centric world view, if a majority of Americans are stupid enough to vote for that plonker, that means the rest of the world want him too. In the UK, Bush is about as popular as a cockroach. And that's being cruel to cockroaches, who at least play some constructive role in eating the rubbish we throw away, and keeping the circle of life turning. Bush can't even eat a pretzel, and the circle of life will turn a lot more easily when that idiot and his deluded environmental policies are out of office.

Supporters of Fascism see bias in everything they read, because they support the indefensible, and believe that people should not have a right to free thought or expression. Plus, they know their "side" is losing, so they want to skew the debate to put their Opposition on the defensive, rather than themselves.

It's better known as "Disinformation" - read up on it.

"George Bush was re-elected with a massive majority last November."

Yes, Diebold voting machines are a wonder, aren't they ... ?

"Tony Blair is also still quite popular too"

That's not what I've seen, read, or heard this past year.

"for having helped to rid the world of one of the ..."

He started a war he knew to be illegal, as leaked documents prove. This places him right up there with those others you mention so that we don't keep talking about him.

"The majority of the British people fully support the war on terrorism aswell"

Fed incessant Propaganda on this non-existent war, polling actually suggests the opposite to be true.

"who murdered dozens of British people in July!"

Actually, the available evidence, the key pieces still mysteriously missing, and the LIES exposed in the Cover Story fed to us by the same people who cried "Saddam could nuke us in 45 minutes!!" suggests a Government False Flag Operation, strategically timed in order to win back a population becoming increasingly angry about the crimes being committed by these Fascists.

Tony Blair stood shoulder to shoulder with America after the September the 11th attacks for a very good reason, because Al Qaeda terrorists had just murdered 3,000 American citizens. What else was he to do? Just shrug his shoulders and say international terrorism is not our problem because Britain has never been hit by Islamic terrorists? Had he done that, he would have been considered selfish and shirking his responsiblities in the face of the terrorist threat posed by Al Qaeda.

By the way if you didn't know, Al Qaeda attacked America on September the 11th because they want to re-establish the Caliphate, the Islamic empire in the Middle East, which fell after the first World War with the defeat of the Ottomon Empire. Many muslims around the world share this dream and are willing to fight to establish it.

As for you arguments about Britain and America having armed Saddam in the past that was under different governments! Niether Tony Blair nor George W. Bush ever helped Saddam or supportted Iraqs war against Iran!

Also most of the people killed so far in Iraq, have been killed by the terrorist insurgents! Only a few thousand died because of the war to oust brutal, evil dictator Saddam Hussein. Which was right and proper because Saddam had murdered and tortured to death hundreds of thousands!

As long as you engage the brainwashed zombie it will keep coming back.

"Tony Blair stood shoulder to shoulder with America"

The war against Afghanistan was not "standing shoulder to shoulder" with anyone. This military conquest of the oil and gas pipeline to the Capsian Sea Basin was planned and in the staging long before the False Flag Attacks in the US.

"Al Qaeda terrorists"

That's a pseudonym for Western/Israeli Covert Operations.

"had just murdered 3,000 American citizens."

I already addressed this, Spook.

There is no evidence that supports this Conspiracy Theory.

"As for you arguments about Britain and America having armed Saddam in the past that was under different governments!"

Most of the people who were instrumental in the creation of Saddam Hussein's Regime, and the Iran-Contra arms/drug dealings, were installed into the Bush/PNAC Regime.

"Also most of the people killed so far in Iraq, have been killed by the terrorist insurgents!"

That is not true. The vast majority were slaughtered during the initial invasion. The rest were killed by the Americans' admitted "shoot first" policies, and the use of banned weapons such as white phosphorous. And as the recent SAS episode in Basra, and leaked documents, proved, several of the attacks which were blamed on the Iraqi Resistance, were in fact carried out by the intelligence services of the Foreign Aggressors, in order to "divide & rule".

Luckily, the Iraqi People are wise to this old Colonial Trick, and the Resistance is stronger than ever.

Do you really believe that the 9/11 attacks and 7/7 attacks were carried out by western governments? If so then how come the American government was able to name everyone of the 19 September 11th hijackers? And how come the British government was able to name the 7/7 bombers and give full details of their identities and families? How come these bombers were so well known in their communities before the attacks? How come they were known as Islamic radicals?

You take conspiracy theories to the extreme, under no circumstances would the British and American government ever carry out false flag terrorist operations against their own people! If you have hard evidence that they have however, report to your local police! Morons.

That is such a classy comment!!! I don't agree with 9-11, 7-7 conspiracy theories, I think there is plenty of resentment among muslims about the terrible things we are doing to their countries, and I think there are certainly groups organised and intelligent enough to carry out attacks like that.

HOWEVER

what I love is the idea that 'if you have evidence that Western Governments are behind the attacks, report them to your local police'!!!!!!

?????

???

!!!

Because Devon and Cornwall Police are really going to be a great help in exposing a dark, all-encompassing global conspiracy, especially one that apparently involves the police force.

Classic....

"Do you really believe that the 9/11 attacks and 7/7 attacks were carried out by western governments?"

Western or Israeli, yes, I believe that it is a distict possibility. Such is the way with Fascism, which is what these countries are currently suffering under. This most recent revelation of their plans to murder civilians who threaten their stranglehold on media coverage of this illegal war strengthen that argument.

"If so then how come the American government was able to name ..."

Yes, they were able to provide a list of names. What they have not done, in over four years, is actually provide compelling evidence that these men were even on the planes or in the airports that terrible day.

"And how come the British government was able to name the 7/7 bombers ..."

Same deal. There has still been no compelling evidence put forth to prove the Conspiracy Theory put forth by the guys who said "Saddam could nuke us in 45 minutes!!!", and they've been reluctant, despite many calls to do so, to provide key pieces of independently-verifiable evidence to support their allegations.

These lingering facts call their stories into serious question.

"You take conspiracy theories to the extreme"

No, I'm not the one using mine to invade countries, slaughter thousands of innocent men, women, and children, or grant myself powers the courts had previously denied me.

And these people have been proven to engage in such intrigues ...

Anyway, the point of this thread is that the Fascists have consciously targeted civilians who threatened their ability to keep the realities of their illegal war of aggression from the people they lied to in order to start it.

"Western or Israeli"

It's absolutely incredible that those who hate jews (current euphemism- Mossad, Zionists, Israelis) elevate those same jews to supernatural status. Jew are capable of simultaneously attacking targets in Bali and London, New York and Morocco. They're deviously busy little bees.
All of this of course is to blame it on peaceloving moslems. Madrid? The Jews, who else?
Tunisia synagogue bombings? The Jews of course. Three hotels in Jordan...you got it, the Jews.
1000 Shia pilgrims slaughtered outside their mosque? Why the mossad of course... Danny Pearl? Cut off his own head and filmed it. Nick Berg, a zionist Bush operative did the same thing! A copycat self beheading? Of course, that's the way Jews are.
The list is endless, and gets a bit silly after a while.
Even when moslems proudly take credit for their dastardly deeds, Useful Idiots claim that it's just a ZIONIST plant who is taking credit. Why? To make moslems look like they'll murder anyone, anytime, anywhere. And, we all know that islam Means Peace and Moslems just don't do those kind of things.

"Western or Israeli"

Mr. Kennedy, I said this because both the CIA and Mossad have been caught red-handed, attempting to dupe Arabs into commiting acts of terrorism (the Mossad, against Israeli civilians!!) in the name of "Al Qaeda".

"It's absolutely incredible that those who hate jews (current euphemism- Mossad, Zionists, Israelis) elevate those same jews to supernatural status."

Your "Anti-Semitic Sword" is getting sull, Hasbarian. Zionism is not synonymous with either Judaism, or Jews. It is a small, Extremist Cult, who manipulate Jewish people to achieve their political and financial goals. They, through their ideology of Racial Supremacy (much like Hitler's, etc.), are the ones elevating themselves to that unrealistic level.

The Mossad is the notorious intelligence agency/terrorist organization operated out of Israel, by Zionist Extremists. Logically, this agency is also not synonymous with Judaism or Jews. You're cowering behind the Jewish People like all Zionists do, and that is Anitsemitic.

"Jew are capable of simultaneously attacking targets in Bali and London, New York and Morocco."

Oh, so I guess only Muslims could do that ... ? Give your head a shake, my friend. I would say that the people trained to do this work, and funded at the Government/State level could achieve these things quite easily, yes.

If you could provide solid evidence to prove the Conspiracy Theories you're here defending, I would have no problems. The fact remains that in most of these cases, the people making the allegations, the very same people who said that "Saddam has WMD!!!", will not, or cannot, produce a compelling case.

Anyway, enough of your petty distraction.

The point of this thread is that the Fascists have consciously targeted civilians who threatened their ability to keep the realities of their illegal war of aggression from the people they lied to in order to start it.

Kinda weakens your case of indignance ...

...that jewish extremists clearly exist, but the notion that Muslim extremists could possibly exist is utter nonsense? Are Muslims with very real grievances against the West somehow incapable of organising their own armed resistance then?

I think that, whatever their original motives, some alleged anti-zionists have ended up straying into believing any and all of the old anti-semetic myths about the jews (insert zionist/Mossad as appropriate) being behind every conspiracy going. If you are going to respond by saying I am merely substituting Muslims for Jews, I am not, I do not beleive Muslims are behind all terrorist activity, but where Muslim extremists (yes, I do think they exist) clearly do claim responsibility for certain activities, I think this should be given some credence without automatically assuming such claims could not possibly be true or are the work of a zionist/CIA plant.

US missile hits Al-Jazeera office

"Doha: A US missile hit the Baghdad offices of Al-Jazeera television early today, wounding a cameraman and leaving a correspondent missing, the Qatar-based Arabic news network said."

[ http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/08/1049567667355.html]

Al-Jazeera Kabul offices hit in US raid

"The Kabul offices of the Arab satellite al-Jazeera channel have been destroyed by a US missile."

[ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1653887.stm]

"THE Middle Eastern news network Al-Jazeera was accused by Donald Rumsfeld, the American defence secretary, of broadcasting “vicious, inaccurate and inexcusable” reports about the war in Iraq the day before President George W Bush met Tony Blair at the White House and apparently suggested bombing the station’s headquarters."

Rumsfeld’s Al-Jazeera outburst[ http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1892464,00.html]

No matter how much the professional Hasbarah obfuscators scream anti-semite on here - it seems perfectly clear that not only is America capable of attacking non violent non combatitive civilian targets, but it HAS ALREADY DONE SO.

There is no moral high ground for the obfuscators - they are as welcome here as an anarchist would be in a pub full of off duty cops.

"...that jewish extremists clearly exist, but the notion that Muslim extremists could possibly exist is utter nonsense?"

No, what I am saying is that there is no evidence to support the Conspiracy Theories upon which the Extremists in power have decalred war upon the Arab world. The Zionists' terrorist organization, the Mossad, has a clear history of such activities, and can be directly linked to several of the attacks you've blamed upon Arabs, without key pieces of evidence.

"Are Muslims with very real grievances against the West somehow incapable of organising their own armed resistance then?"

Not at all.

They fight in the streets of Iraq and Afghanistan (and Iran, and Syria) as we speak.

"I think that, whatever their original motives, some alleged anti-zionists ..."

That Antisemitic Sword is rather dull, and has become very transparent. Everytime you reactively draw it out of its well-worn holster, you demonstrate to the reader that you cannot defend your case with facts, and must instead resort to Disinformation.

"(insert zionist/Mossad as appropriate)"

As I demonstrated above, they aren't appropriate, because the three are not interchangeable. The violent, supremacist Cult known as Zionism, and the Mossad, are not indicative or representative of the Jewish People. Both are condemned, not for their supposed ethnic background, but because of their own histories.

Your willingness to believe that these groups cannot be responsible for any of this madness, simply because they are, or profess to be, Jewish, treads the line of Antisemitism itself.

"where Muslim extremists clearly do claim responsibility for certain activities, I think this should be given some credence"

Certainly. But no such thing has been done in the cases cited. And do not forget that such alleged confessions are not substitutions for evidence.

If you, or the Fascists you're here supporting, could provide solid evidence to prove the Conspiracy Theories you're defending, I would have no problems. The fact remains that in most of these cases, the people making the allegations, the very same people who said that "Saddam has WMD!!!", will not, or cannot, produce a compelling case.

Anyway, enough of your petty distraction.

The point of this thread is that the Fascists have consciously targeted civilians who threatened their ability to keep the realities of their illegal war of aggression from the people they lied to in order to start it.

Kinda weakens your case of indignance ...

'If you, or the Fascists you're here supporting'

Kindly point out precisely where I said I supported what the US/UK are doing in Iraq. I think you will find - nowhere, so it is somewhat disengenuous of you to imply otherwise.

Why, by the very fact that I acknowledge the existence of Muslim Extremists, does that imply that I am somehow supportive of the actions by the US/UK in Iraq and Afghanistan?

I am not. You seem to be implying that by acknowledging that Al Quaeda (In my opinion, a disparate group of Muslim ideologues rather than any kind of cohesive force) were behind 9/11 and 7/7 - and despite what people say about their being a lack of evidence, the so called 'official' case is significantly stronger than many of the counter theories that have been put forward - then somehow you must therefore support the subsequent 'war on terror'. But that is simply not the case. The existence of one does not imply support for the latter. Ironically you seem to be taking the Bush line that there is some kind of relational link between the two.


'not only is America capable of attacking non violent non combatitive civilian targets, but it HAS ALREADY DONE SO.'

I am not arguing that it has not, but it is quite clear that a number of other points have been raised on this thread, you may wish to label any response to those other issues as obfuscation, but I do not regard it to be so.

'The fact remains that in most of these cases, the people making the allegations, the very same people who said that "Saddam has WMD!!!", will not, or cannot, produce a compelling case. '

You say this alot, as some sort of mantra, but it is not strictly true is it, or at least is somewhat more complex than you are implying. Could you explain a bit more about how you define 'the state' in such examples, does the state, comprised of numerous diverse bodies, always speak with a single voice? Likewise I would be interested in how you define the relationship between the mainstream media and the state. At times you seem to imply a very basic (what used to be called a 'vulgar Marxist') approach - that the 'state directly controls the MSM', but at other times you acknowldege that certain articles in the MSM support your counter claims. If the latter is true, then surely the MSM must act with a certain degree of 'autonomy' from the state. I would concur with the latter but would like some clarification please.

Does the fact that there were no WMDs mean that therefore, automatically, the state was behind 7/7? For the state to be behind 7/7 and 9/11 would require a massive cover-up job, involving thousands of ordinary people also, including tube workers, ambulance men and women and so forth. I realise that your counter claim is usually that people expect 'ze terrorists' to have acted with the same degree of technical and covert skill, but that simply is not the case is it, the two examples are not really comparable at all are they? - It does not take much skill at all to blow yourself up on a bus or a train, beyond a certain basic degree of co-ordination. For these superhuman government agents to go in, blow up its own civilians then frame a bunch of innocent patsies and then go on to successfully cover the whole thing up (numerous times) requires significantly greater ability and quite frankly, stretches credulity beyond belief. As for the case against Siddique Khan etc, I would say that evidence like the video etc, is fairly solid. No--one has convincingly shown it to be faked in anyway. People have said that still does not link him to the crime, but his corpse was recovered from the scene itself. You say you are open to be convinced, but I woul like to know what degree of evidence you would accept? You seem to think my own views are fixed, but yours appear no less so.

'Hasbara Becomes Transparent After A While'

Talking of evidence, on what evidence do you base this accusation - absolutely nothing at all it would appear. Those who spoke out in defence of witches were often condemned themselves, as were those who defended alleged communists during the McCarthy era. You seem to have adopted a similar approach, based on nothing more than the fact that I disagreed with your post. As it happens, I am not jewish but English with no jewish ancestry. I live in Bristol in the UK and currently work in a call centre (which I hate but I have to live). If I am some sort of government agent, then I am so covert, they have never even told me. But, I did go to University and I am aware of the history of anti-semitism. As it happens, I have never seen anything particularly anti-semitic in your own posts, but there clearly are people who post regularly on this site that claim to be anti-zionist, but seem to fall back on highlighting examples of 'evil jews' whenever possible. I do not view this as being particularly progressive.

Anyway, I have said enough I think.

"Kindly point out precisely where I said I supported what the US/UK are doing in Iraq."

Your work supports and defends them from criticism. Actions speak louder, and all that, my friend.

"Why, by the very fact that I acknowledge the existence of Muslim Extremists, does that imply that I am somehow supportive of the actions by the US/UK in Iraq and Afghanistan?"

It's not that you acknowledge this phenomenon, created by the CIA in Afghanistan. It's that you do not consider the other possibilities, the missing evidence to support what the LIARS in power allege is happening, and treat the entire history of the CIA/Mossad, etc, as if it's irrelevant. In this vein, you are protective of the prevailing propaganda.

"You seem to be implying that by acknowledging that Al Quaeda (In my opinion, a disparate group of Muslim ideologues rather than any kind of cohesive force)"

In reality, as all evidence thus far proves, a creation of Western/Israeli intelligence services.

"were behind 9/11 and 7/7"

You cannot "acknowledge" this, because it isn't proven. That's the whole point here. Whenever this allegation is made, and the LIARS making the allegations use these situations to further their Fascist agenda, key pieces of evidence are consistently absent, while the presence of certain intelligence agencies are clearly there.

"the so called 'official' case is significantly stronger than many of the counter theories that have been put forward"

Indeed. But I'm not forwarding a particular Theory. I'm simply stating that the one you're here defending is unproven and uninvestigated. Your focus is interesting is all, especially on a site such as this ...

'The fact remains that in most of these cases, the people making the allegations, the very same people who said that "Saddam has WMD!!!", will not, or cannot, produce a compelling case. '

"You say this alot"

That is because it is the truth.

"does the state, comprised of numerous diverse bodies, always speak with a single voice?"

Not always, no. But the voice that matters is always singular, since there has been a hijacking of the reigns of power. You can see it in the deepening rift between the Extremists calling the shots, and the military/intelligence professionals doing their dirty work.

"Likewise I would be interested in how you define the relationship between the mainstream media and the state."

That would depend on who specifically we're talking about, but for the most part, they are quite interchangeable. The corporations who own the seats of power also own the airwaves. That is, of course, a generality, but for the most part, the greater MSM has been a willing participant in the crimes we've witnessed these past few years.

"If the latter is true, then surely the MSM must act with a certain degree of 'autonomy' from the state."

At times, this does occur, most often behind breaking news, before the networks have time to get "on script", or in the cases of the last few Journalists out there, such as Helen Thomas. But situations like the US Military's 4/5th Battalion Psychological Operations units, operating at CNN, etc. come to light, exposing the depths of the mass deception.

"Does the fact that there were no WMDs mean that therefore, automatically, the state was behind 7/7?"

No, it simply means that, given their known penchance for LYING in order to achieve their goals, we should investigate the situation, rather than allowing Bliar to use the day to seize for himself new powers which the courts had denied him for four straight years, as was the case.

Especially when he cannot support his Conspiracy Theory with evidence, and the presence of the same Israeli "Security Company" was noted, overseeing the Tube as the airports allegedly used on 911.

The Israeli Spy Ring
ALL LINKS TO CARL CAMERON'S FOX NEWS STORY ON THE ISRAELI SPY RING HAVE BEEN REMOVED AT THE EXPRESS REQUEST OF FOX NEWS.
 http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spyring.html

"For the state to be behind 7/7 and 9/11 would require a massive cover-up job"

Indeed, by all the highly-placed Extremists in the Government, with multi-billion dollar budgets, and a chain of command which does not allow for dissent or question.

This is a tired, old, specious line of Disinformation, which again, forces me to question your purpose here. This same line was key to the Disinformation of Plants who were routed out on several other IMC's, such as San Fran, Vancouver, and Victoria.

"For these superhuman government agents to go in, blow up its own civilians then frame a bunch of innocent patsies and then go on to successfully cover the whole thing up (numerous times) requires significantly greater ability"

But that is precisely what these people are trained to do. I would expect them to complete the task with greater skill. But their weakness still seems to be explaining why key pieces of evidence do not exist to support their Frame-Up.

Your Indignance is again contradicted by the long and bloody histories of these intelligence agencies/terrorist organizations, and quite frankly, sends up red flags as to your purpose. None of this is incredulous at all. In fact, knowing what we do, it is quite possible, and actually satisfies Occam's Razor.

Now all we need to do is investigate - unimpeded by the people obstructing such - to see what actually happened, and who was responsible.

'Hasbara Becomes Transparent After A While'

"Talking of evidence, on what evidence do you base this accusation - absolutely nothing at all it would appear."

Actually, several years of dissecting the same types of arguments, studying Disinformation and Hasbara, upon which I have presented several lectures, and having this argument over and over and over ... with someone whose motives seem quite clear.

"If I am some sort of government agent, then I am so covert, they have never even told me."

Hey, say it 'til you're blue in the face. I don't know you from Adam, and the Spooks who have been positively ID'ed made the same types of statements. Many of these other people were Useful Idiot Volunteers, from such Hate Sites as LGF, Jihad Watch, etc.

Anyway, enough of your petty distraction.

The point of this thread is that the Fascists have consciously targeted civilians who threatened their ability to keep the realities of their illegal war of aggression from the people they lied to in order to start it.

Kinda weakens your case of indignance ...