Okay, what happened to Gianna is, indeed, horrible and cruel, but for reasons that have to do with her exceptional circumstances (late abortion, method etc.) rather than the concept of abortion itself. You can't just go on generalising that for all women!

Now, given that the sponsor of her tour is Ultrasound, a Catholic pro-life organisation active among studens (the post doesn't mention Catholic!), I wounder how could the author of the article call her(him)self Leftie. In fact, the post is a copy-paste (or the other way round) from TruthTV ( http://www.truthtv.org/newstext.asp?newsid=2673), which claims to be Ireland's no.1 source for pro-life information.

P.S. In case you're interested, here's another bit of news published on that site:
"This morning US President George W. Bush nominated Samuel A. Alito as Supreme Court Justice. The announcement was well received by conservative groups as well as pro-life and pro-family groups." !!!

Before this is no doubt hidden, perhaps we need a chorus of Monty Python's "Every sperm is sacred". And to the poster, believe me, no one who promotes the doctrine of the catholic church is ever a 'leftie'.

However, I'm sure we will all give you another hearing if you come back AFTER you have got the Catholic church to actively back contraception and family planning across the WHOLE of the Earth. You see, then at least you would not be a stinking hypocrite in making your anti-abortion case.

Don't pretend to be a lefty, your policies cause deaths and injuries from back street abortions, and global poverty from overpopulation. You don't believe in contraception. You're not feeding the starving.

In America your supporters have been killing health workers and harassing women who choose to control their own bodies.

This woman is disabled because the operation was botched, not because of abortion. I'm sure most disabled people are for abortion. Disabled people who are born should have equal rights and help. But some abortions are to prevent people being born who would suffer from severe disability. You're causing disability.

This is the same Catholic Church that sexually abuses the children that are born. Then they covered up their abuse of the living for years, and the Catholic Church victimised the children who were abused, and let the abuse continue. This is the Catholic Church that does not give women equal rights.

The previous poster seems to be justifying aborting babies simply because they're going to be disabled. That's disgusting. The limit for abortion for disabled babies such be brought down to the same level as that for "normal" babies. To say anything otherwise is eugenics. There is a limit on abortion because at a certain point fetuses are considered enough of a human being for it to be murder to take their life. When they're just a blobbish life-form its alright. Perhaps the limit should be lowered, considering we now know they're more developed than we previously thought at that stage, but thats a different matter. But certainly it should not be legal to abort disabled babies beyond the point that we would abort "normal" babies, beyond the point we think a baby is considered a human being with some rights. Otherwise that is just eugenics and a Nazi policy.

Pro lifers will make any excuse against abortion. We could destroy the world by no contraception and no abortions, and deplete the world's resources through overpopulation. You're taking resources from people and animals. You anti abortionists would destroy the planet.

You used the excuse that the woman from the botched operation is a reason against abortion. You create disabilities by forcing women to give birth to people who will suffer. I'm glad you can't abuse my body by telling me what to do with my own body, and that I don't live in Catholic Eire.

I'm not saying all fetuses should be aborted because of disability, only for very severe disabilities if the woman chooses. It's not eugenics, it's about quality of life, it's better not to be born and you think they'll go to heaven.

But if someone is born severely disabled or becomes disabled society should give them the same opportunities. There is enormous discrimination towards disabled people from all parts of society, especially by employers and most employers exploit workers and want maximum productivity and don't give disabled people jobs. Employers are also creating disability and most are slave drivers exploiting us. I am disabled.

"And to the poster, believe me, no one who promotes the doctrine of the catholic church is ever a 'leftie'."

Well, I guess it all depends on what you mean by promoting "the doctrine" of the Catholic church. If you mean someone who defends every single doctrine then you're probably correct, but to me there are probably plenty of people who claim to be Catholics and would promote being Catholic yet are clearly left-wing. For example, there are the likes of the Catholic Worker movement, the Berrigans (spoken of in relatively approving terms by Ward Churchill in "Pacifism as Pathology") and the entire liberation theology movement in Latin America. In addition, the link between Catholicism and militant leftism has repeatedly been made, especially in connection with Italy in the seventies. Both Renato Curcio (head of Red Brigades) and Toni Negri were very religious when young. Indeed, in "Empire", Negri even sets out Francis of Assisi as his picture of the ideal militant.

God bless this young woman who lives as a testimony against the murder of abortion. It seems that war and abortion are identical acts. Killing innocent people! Let's put a stop to both and quit pretending both are approved by God. Thou Shalt Not Kill! Get it?

The Survivors of Abortion
It's something that is rarely discussed, but sometimes children do survive abortion attempts. It's impossible to know exactly how many survive. However, here are a few stories of individuals we know have survived abortion attmepts. Some of them escaped relatively unharmed. Others were profoundly injured by their abortions. Their stories deserved to be told, regardless. Where possible, a photo of the abortion survivor has been provided so that you can attach a real, human face to the victims of abortions, who are so often dehumanized by efforts to defend abortion.


What can we say to these people to sympathize with them and rationalize abortion at the same time? "We’re sorry that you’re missing a limb as a result of that failed abortion, but that abortion attempt was in your mother’s best interest as well as yours and society’s and the world's"? Or, "Your injuries are awful; better technology and skill should have been available to abort you correctly so that you would not have lived to either 'enslave' your mother or suffer yourself"? D.N. Rivera

Gianna Jessen
On April 6, 1977, Gianna's 17 year old birthmother (named Tina) sought a saline abortion at seven months pregnant. Saline abortions involve injecting a caustic saline solution into the amniotic fluid, which (normally) causes the fetus to be scalded to death and then delivered dead. In this case, however, things didn't go according to plan. In the early hours of April 7th, Tina went into labor and gave birth to a living baby girl, Gianna. Fortunately for Gianna, she was born before the abortionist had arrived at the clinic for the day. As a result, instead of being killed at birth by the abortionist, she was transported to a hospital. She was severely injured by the abortion attempt, requiring a three month stay in the hospital, but she survived to be placed in a foster family specializing in high risk babies.

As a result of injuries from the abortion, Gianna was diagnosed with cerebral palsy. Doctors believed she would never be able to sit up, let alone walk. She surpassed all expectations. Today she is able to run, dance, and walk...and has even taken up rock climbing. She has also become a tireless advocate for the pro-life cause.

Many would expect Gianna to be bitter or angry about the fact her birthmother tried to abort her, especially at such a late point in the pregnancy. However, Gianna does not have any hatred towards her birthmother. She has forgiven her mother for the traumatic circumstances of her birth and treats the post-abortion women who hear her speak with compassion.

On April 22, 1996, Gianna testified before the Constitution Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee on the issue of abortion. Sadly, out of 13 members of the subcommittee, only 2 were willing to listen to her testimony; abortion supporters boycotted the meeting.

[Text of Gianna's Testimony to the Subcommittee | More Detailed Account of Gianna's Life | Order GIANNA: ABORTED AND LIVED TO TELL ABOUT IT, a book about Gianna's life]

Ana Rosa Rodriguez
Look at the picture of Ana Rosa Rodriguez on the left. At first glance, she might look like an average little girl to you. However, if you look closely, you'll notice that this child is missing her right arm. That's because her arm was ripped off in the process of an abortion on New York's Lower East Side in October of 1991. Ana Rosa was 32 weeks old at the time of the abortion. It was performed by legal abortionist Abu Hayat. Rosa, Ana Rosa's mother (who was only 20 years old at the time), had told Hayat that she had changed her mind and didn’t want to go through with the abortion.

"He said that it was impossible to stop, that I had to continue," Rosa told New York Newsday. According to Rosa, Hayat’s assistants held her down while he sedated her. When she awoke, she was told that the abortion was incomplete and that she should come back the following day. That evening, however, she experienced increasing pain and bleeding. Her mother took her to Jamaica Hospital by taxi, where, five hours later, baby Ana Rosa was born. Aside from the loss of her right arm, Ana Rosa is a perfectly healthy little girl.

As unfortunate as the maiming of Ana Rosa was, she and her mother are very lucky they escaped from Hayat without further injury. Other incidents Hayat, a member of the National Abortion Federation, was involved in:

* On September 18, 1990, Hayat performed an abortion on 17 year old Sophie McCoy. The next day she was taken to a hospital and found to have a perforated uterus and sepsis. An emergency hysterectomy was performed, but Sophie developed disseminated intravascular coagulopahty and died on September 26. Sophie's mother found paperwork for Hayat's facility in Sophie's coat pocket. The case was reported to the district attorney and the New York Health Department, but nobody took any action against Hayat
* In March 1991, Hayat refused to complete an abortion on Marie Moise after he demanded an additional payment of $500 in the middle of the abortion and Moise's husband could not pay the $500. He forced the woman to leave the clinic bleeding and with an incomplete abortion. She nearly died from the resulting infection.
* There have been several allegations accusing Hayat of sexually assaulting/fondling his abortion patients.
Even though all of the above happened before Ana Rosa's brush with Hayat, these previous incidents were not considered "serious enough" by New York authorities to take any action against Hayat. The maiming of Ana Rosa may have also gone ignored except that it drew intense media scrutiny. When news broke of Hayat's arrest in connection with the assault on Ana Rosa, at least seven women called a police hotline to claim he had also botched their abortions.

Heidi Huffman
In 1978, Tina Huffman was a pregnant, unwed 17-year-old from a broken, dysfunctional home. Her mom and dad, as well as her boyfriend’s parents, adamantly insisted she had only one option: abortion. Tina yielded to their demands and had a suction abortion. But the abortionist "missed" Baby Heidi, even though he took most of the placenta and amniotic fluid. Heidi was delivered by C-section several months later. From her earliest years, Heidi attended pro-life rallies, programs and conferences with her mom, and then graduated to picketing and sidewalk counseling at abortion clinics.

Heidi herself says, "I believe that all young people are survivors of abortion, just like I am, because they too could have been killed under the current policy of our government, which declared us "non-persons" when we were in the womb."

Sarah Smith
In 1970, three years before Roe vs. Wade knocked down all laws against abortion in the United States, California had already legalized abortion. Sarah’s mother, Betty, had an abortion in Los Angeles. Neither she nor the the abortionist realized she was carrying twins. As a result, one of the twins--Sarah--survived the abortion.

"Somehow, miraculously, I survived!" says Sarah. "My twin brother wasn’t so lucky. Andrew was aborted and we lost him forever. Several weeks later, my mother was shocked to feel me kicking in her womb. She already had five children and she knew what it felt like when a baby kicked in the womb. She instantly knew that somehow she was still pregnant." Sarah’s mother went back to the doctor and told him she was still pregnant, that she had made a big mistake and that she wanted to keep this baby.

"To this day, my mother deeply regrets that abortion," says Sarah. "I know the pain is unbearable for her at times when she looks at me and knows she aborted my twin brother. Mom says ‘the protective hand of Almighty God saved my life,’ that God’s hand covered and hid me in her womb, and protected me from the scalpel of death."

Sarah survived the abortion, but was born with bilateral, congenital dislocated hips and many other physical handicaps. Nine days after her birth she was taken to an orthopedic surgeon who applied a cast to each of her tiny legs. "My mom would remove these casts with pliers every Monday morning and take me to the doctor to have new casts put on," she recounts. "At six weeks I was put into my first body cast. Many surgeries and body casts followed over the next few years."

Sarah’s life has been painful in many ways, and her future holds more painful surgeries for her. Yet Sarah says she continually thanks God she survived the abortion. But the pain is not hers alone and not merely physical. The emotional pain continues, she says, for everyone in her family. "In memory of my brother Andrew, we bought a memorial gravestone and placed it in a cemetery in Southern California. It reads: Andrew James Smith, Twin Brother of Sarah - in our hearts you’ll always be alive - November 1970."

On April 24, 1996, Sarah Smith delivered a powerful address at the international "Congress for Life" in Rome, organized by the Legionaries of Christ to celebrate the first anniversary of Pope John Paul II’s encyclical letter Evangelium Vitae - The Gospel of Life. Sarah told the conference how she came to discover the dreadful secret that she had somehow intuitively felt:


"I did not know of the abortion until I was 12 years old. I grew up feeling that I was the same as my friends, except for having numerous surgeries and physical complications. The only difference I felt was an incredible loneliness and a knowledge that something was missing. I never felt whole.

"I battled with severe depression and found myself dying of anorexia nervosa at age 12, when my mother knew it was time to tell me the truth. She sat next to me and took my hand and looked me in the eyes and said, 'Sarah, you are a twin. I aborted your twin brother and tried to abort you. Please know I did not know what I was doing and I pray someday you are able to forgive me. I love you and need you to know that you are a welcome part of our family.'

"At that moment I knew what I had been missing all my life and that I was called to something much greater than I had knowledge of. Immediately I felt the overwhelming pain of the knowledge that I should be dead.

"As I stand before you today," Sarah told her Rome audience, "I am painfully aware that this is only possible because my twin brother took a scalpel for me, and I stand in his place and memory, giving him honor and a face. Statistics are coldly impersonal and cannot convey the human tragedy of the abortion slaughter. Thirty-two million babies [have been] killed in the United States alone. Yet every one had a face, a life, a Creator who loved them and created them in His image. As you look at me today, you realize that I am no different than you, yet I stand before you today a representative of the dead - a representative of the innocent lives who today may lose their lives. Who will speak for them?"


Baby Grace
On August 4, 1999, "Baby Grace" was born at Good Samaritan Hospital in Dayton, Ohio. She was a victim of an abortion clinic run by Martin Haskell, who helped "pioneer" the partial-birth abortion procedure. The partial birth abortion technique requires two days of dilation of the mother's cervix before the child can finally be pulled out of the womb feet first and killed. Baby Grace was born when her mother went into labor prematurely, during the dilation phase. According to Dr. Haskell, these premature births (in a statement on the Baby Grace incident, Haskell's clinic referred to Baby Grace as a "miscarriage") happen in one out of one hundred cases. Baby Grace was born during her mother’s 26th week of pregnancy. She survived and is expected to do well.

Ximena Renaerts
Ximena's odessy with Vancouver General Hospital began on Dec. 16, 1985, the day she was born. After attempting an abortion at a free-standing mill in Bellingham, Wash. Ximena's birth mother entered VGH, where she gave birth. According to court documents, staff delivered the child into a "hat"--a plastic pot--and then senior nurse Vera Wood whisked her away. Ximena was placed in a room "where dead fetuses were stored," even though she was "moving, gasping, (and) crying weakly."

Court documents say Wood checked back some 26 minutes later, to find the child still alive. A nursing supervisor was called and arrived almost an hour after Ximena's birth. She found the child still in the "hat," uncovered, on a stainless-steel counter. By the time the Infant Transport Team arrived, Ximena had suffered a severe loss of heat, which in turn caused extensive and permanent brain damage.

Ximena's adoptive family eventually sued VGH for $10 million. Hospital officials petitioned to have the case heard before a judge only, but the B.C. Supreme Court ruled it would be best heard before a jury. In June of this year, facing the prospect of a public trial, the hospital settled out of court for an undisclosed amount of money. All family members will say is that Ximena will be well taken care of.

Meanwhile, pro-life activists are calling for criminal charges to be laid. B.C.'s pro-abortion Attorney-General Ujjal Dosanjh initially balked at the idea of investigating, but then instructed his criminal justice branch to contact Vancouver police. As of press time, no announcement had been made on whether further action will be taken. The B.C. College of Physicians and Surgeons have claimed the incident is out of their jurisdiction.

VGH continues to face heat over the case. Pro-lifers are now handing out literature outside the hospital, warning women of the events surrounding Ximena's birth. Some pro-lifers are suggesting VGH's recent request for a no-protest "bubble zone" around the facility is an attempt to cover up the case and hide it from patients and possible donors.

But it seems unlikely officials will be able to put a lid on the story, since it may have happened before. A May 30, 1986 Vancouver Sun article quotes nurse Kathryn Larouche, who spent a year working in the VGH ward where abortions were committed. Larouche stated she saw three infants "die after they were delivered live."

"We were supposed to turn the other way," Larouche said. "We weren't supposed to do anything. There were a couple of people ... I don't want to say who. They told us, ‘Don't do anything. Leave it alone. It will die.'" The events left such emotional scars, Larouche eventually resigned. Five other nurses left with her.

VGH officials insist that, according to their records, there has been no other case where a "viable" infant was born and allowed to die. They have not provided an explanation of what "viable" means.


Those Who Didn't Make It
The below stories are those of some babies who, sadly, did not survive for very long after their abortion. Nonetheless, their stories deserve to be heard and remembered.

Baby Hope: Another Victim of Partial Birth Abortion
Like Baby Grace, Baby Hope was born when her mother went into premature labor after the first day of dilation for a partial birth abortion. Baby Hope is believed to have been around 22 weeks old when she was born. Doctors decided she was not well-developed enough to survive, and so she struggled for life for three hours until dying. Baby Hope was fortunate in one respect: She was held and comforted by a compassionate emergency room technician as she died, rather than being brutally killed by partial birth abortion as she was supposed to be.
[The Full Story of Baby Hope's Birth and Death | Senator Mike Dewine on "The Lessons of Baby Hope"]

Sarah Brown: A Silent Witness to the Pro-life Cause
By Liz Townsend, National Right to Life News
One-month-old Jacob would not be alive today if it weren't for little Sarah Brown. Jacob's mother had scheduled an abortion but then heard Sarah's remarkable story of having survived an abortion attempt. When she saw the precious little girl, instead of keeping the appointment, Jacob Alan's mother gave him the gift of life.

Marykay Brown, Sarah's adoptive mother, told NRL News this was just one example of the many people whose lives her daughter touched during her brief life. Sarah, who was five, died September 28 from complications stemming from the abortion attempt. Yet as Mrs. Brown and her family continue to speak about Sarah to audiences across the country, her story will continue to touch hearts and change lives.

Sarah's story begins July 13, 1993. She had spent 36 peaceful weeks in her mother's womb before the needle filled with poison stabbed her in the brain three times. By all odds the assault should have killed her, but something inside Sarah refused to give up. Two days later she was born in a Wichita, Kansas, hospital.

Sarah's birth mother signed away her rights to her daughter almost as soon as the seven-pound, five-ounce abortion survivor was born with visible puncture wounds above her left eyebrow and at the base of her skull. Without knowing her whole story or the extent of her injuries, Bill and Marykay Brown obtained temporary custody of the little girl within 24 hours of her birth and adopted her 30 days later. The Browns heard about Sarah from a pro-life attorney who knew they wanted to adopt a special-needs child.

The toxin that the abortionist injected into her brain caused injuries that became apparent and progressively worse as Sarah grew. "For the first few months she seemed to be progressing normally, although she was blind," said Marykay Brown. "She had acute hearing, and was beginning to try to speak."

However, at about five or six months Sarah suffered a stroke from which she never fully recovered. Brown said she showed awareness of her environment and her family, but never spoke or walked.

"She recognized us and learned to smile," Mrs. Brown said.

Sarah also discovered a unique way of communicating. A machine monitored her at night and would sound an alarm if Sarah stopped breathing. "She learned that if she held her breath the monitor would go off," Brown said. "We would jump out of bed and she would be grinning at us. That was how she got attention."

The Browns' seven other children, ranging in age from 18 to 12, accepted Sarah into their hearts too. "I can't remember a time when someone wasn't holding her, talking to her, playing with her," Brown told NRL News. "Sarah was the baby of the family. We're all having a real hard time coping with her death."

Sarah had progressive airway disease, caused when she ingested some of the poison during the abortion attempt. Before her death she spent a short time in the hospital and the family knew she was getting weaker, according to Brown. Sarah died at home on the morning of September 28, surrounded by her loving family. "Sarah died the most peaceful death," Brown said. "There was no struggling. All of us were with her."

Sarah's corneas were donated to two children. "It does my heart good that there are children who can see because of Sarah," Brown said. "A little girl who was blind gave sight to someone."

Sharing her story has helped Brown cope. "Each time I speak about her it gets a little bit easier," she said.

But sharing Sarah's remarkable story helps Marykay Brown in still another way. She also speaks about her own abortion when she was 19 and the long road she traveled to healing.

"It has come full circle for me," Brown said. "I talk about what it's like to be post-abortive and about the forgiveness God gives and also about abortion from the child's point of view. I've watched Sarah change people's lives."

The Browns have also begun to spread the message of hope and healing on an individual level by helping pregnant women in crisis with financial and other assistance. They started a group called Sarah Ministries and are currently helping three women whose babies are due next spring. Marykay Brown said they hope to expand this ministry and give women the help they need to choose life.

"I believe Sarah's ministry will mushroom now that she's gone," Brown said. "She's an advocate in heaven now."

Anyone interested in inviting the Browns to speak should call Lynn Vorak at (316) 722-8513. To contribute to the Browns' ministry, write to Sarah Ministries, Acct. #64207412, c/o Imprise Bank, 100 N. Meridian, Valley Center, KS 67417.

What are the dates for all those examples given above? How many of them are examples from places where getting an abortion is made so difficult that a women would have to resort to going to just anyone who would do it?

This article is perhaps one of the best arguments I have seen for legalising abortion. There are always going to be situations where women will try to abort a pregnacy - this I am afraid is going to remain a fact no matter how much we argue for or against the morality of it. It happens everywhere in the world and at every point in history. Would you rather then, that abortions are done in back street dangerous situations where the chances of it fucking up, as it obviously did in the case of the women described, are high? That poorer women are more likely to die than richer women, because they can't get the same access to professional doctors? That there is provision available without stigma for those who need councilling?

They are fro the US and Canada where abortion is legal for any reason and widely available until birth. inckuding the barbaric practise of partial birth abortion.

Here is the link;

 http://members.tripod.com/~joseromia/survivors.html

Yes those people who survived abortions shouldn't have been born - they are the result of botched operations and bad surgeons. It's the surgeons not abortion that's the problem. And the reason it's rarely discussed is because they are the result of bad surgeons. They are only a few in a population of 6 billion. You should be trying to get better health services.

You'll use any excuse against abortion. It's the doctor's fault she's disabled. It's a pity abortion survivor wasn't born dumb since she's not campaigning for women's rights.

Why don't you defend women's rights in the church and campaign for the children abused by Catholic pedophile priests? I bet you haven't helped any of the pedophile victims of the Catholic Church, or the millions that were physically abused by nuns and priests.

In rich countries millions of unwanted children end up in institutions, many older children aren't adopted or fostered. Most of these anti abortion hypocrites aren't adopting unwanted children. In poor countries unwanted children live on the streets, they live by begging, stealing or being exploited and don't have a childhood, or starve to death.

The anti abortionists who wrote here do you believe in contraception or sterilization? I don't suppose you're just against abortion because of botched operations, because back street abortions would be worse.

Legalized abortion means women don't have to damage their health through dangerous back street abortions.

Some people have been talkin' 'bout 'overpopulation'. What they mean is overpopulation of Black people. Or putting it differently, Black people outbreeding White people.

They have a fucking cheek.

We have a name for them: R-A-C-I-S-T.

i was born ridiculously early - @ 24 weeks, in time for a late abortion if my mum had chosen. does that make me agree with the pro-lifers? does it arse.
woman's. right. to. choose.
perhaps if i break it down it's easier to understand?

I see that nazi trash is back trolling I wish his mother had aborted him, but he was only born because his mother didn't use contraception.

Overpopulation is not about ethnicity, it's about too many people using the finite resources of the planet. Overpopulation is killing the environment, and so is overconsumption especially by Americans. Ethnicity is irrelevant to the debate. I don't care whst colour a person is.
.

It's all about the womyns right to choose. Womyn should be able to slag around as much as they like and not care if they get pregnant. They are safe in the knowledge that they can just abort the baby when they decide they can't be bothered to have a child. I for one would like to screech on about poor Mother Earth and her limited finite resources. If we kill more baies, then everything will be OK.

uncle joe, 'a womyn's right to slag around'?
a) what about women who aren't 'slagging around' (i mean those in long term, monogamous relationships)
b) and so what if a woman *does* 'slag around'?
c) nice terminology
d) 'can't be bothered' to have a baby? what planet did you come from?
e) with *all* methods of contraception there's a risk of failure. and it takes two to tango. i presume that, unless you practice celibacy/abstinence/are gay/have had a vasectomy, you are fully prepared, every time you have sex, to risk the (albeit very slight) possibility you may become a father? and are you fully happy to take on that responsibility without question?

x

I am not in favour of criminalising abortion yet I am strongly against it and believe it should be time limited, as do most reasonable people.

You might as well say, if you believe those survivors should be dead, that those who survived Dr Mengele should have died as the 'procedure failed'. Doctors who perform abortions at 30 weeks plus in the States are his heirs, they have no ethics.

Most people accpet there is a limit on abortion, that abortion up until birth is both barbaric and unjustifiable. Those who defend it are doing women no favours. Most women do not support abortion up until birth, as well as it being a hideous act of cruelty to the child it is also dangerous to the mother.

I have a right over my own body, too, but that does not involve the right to kill a sentient human being within that could be capable of living outside of me (as babies can now from as early as 23 weeks, at 30 weeks plus they have every chance of survival).

Having sex carries possible results such as pregnancy, we really should be adults and recognise that.

a) If women aren't slagging around and are in long-term monogamous relationships and they don't want to get pregnant, then they have even less excuse for unwanted pregnancies as they should have contraception prepared.

b) It doesn't matter if a woman wants to slag around, just so long as she isn't having unwanted pregnancies. It isn't all about wimmin.

c) Thanks for the compliment about the terminology.

d) I come from a planet where many women seem to think it is acceptable to use abortion as a form of contraception. Abortion should only need to be used where there is a risk to the baby or mother, or in extreme cases like a pregnancy from rape. It is still the taking of a life. How can you condemn the death penalty for murderers or rapists and condone the murder of an innocent unborn child?

e) Indeed it does take two to tango, but women must accept that if they have an unwanted pregnancy, in many cases it will be they who are left literally holding the baby. That is why we need proper sex education in schools and the widespread use of contraception in order to avert the "slight possibility" of an unwanted pregnancy arising from sex.

In order to avoid unwanted pregnancies, any of the alternatives you mention are valid. And given that I do not want to be a father I make sure I use contraception. As you have rightly stated even this can fail and an abortion may be neccesary, but it seems to me the scale of the problem is now such that contraception is not being used.

As Pro Woman Pro Life states people need a mature attitude in realising that sex carries with it the risk of pregnancy and should be prepared accordingly. The feminist argument that it is purely about what a woman wants to do with her body doesn't wash with me. Under all other circumstances this may be true, as it should be for men, however a pregnancy involves another life possibly of a female. Where are the feminist rights of a female child? Never mind the male babies given that women, or themselves, seem to be the only thing many feminists are concerned about.

What people shuld really be asking is if this "abortion survivor's" story is true Where's the proof?

"Gianna Jessen was a 7-month-old unborn baby when her mother underwent a saline abortion. Gianna was left burning inside her womb for 18 hours. The saline solution was meant to kill her, but she did not die."

Sophia8, Do you hate babies so much that you must have incontovertible evidence that this really happened?

Are you the kind of person who questions whether 6 million Jews (10 million total) really died in the Holocaust?

Well, I can tell you that I think the Holocaust happened and I've never seen more evidence than a few thousand bodies on TV documentaries.

I'm always amazed at how callous feminists are towards babies and children regarding the abortion issue. The gentler sex? I don't think.

But, if a man was campaigning to be a part of his children's life through Fathers 4 Justice, I bet you'd be virulently opposed to that.

When I ask for proof, I am talking about medical records, independent witnesses - that sort of thing. As far as I can discover, the only record to back up Jessen's whole story is a single piece of paper stating that she was bought into hospital after being born from a failed saline abortion. All the rest of it - the description of the abortion, everything - is second-hand hearsay stuff. For instance, a journalist spoke over the phone to a woman claiming to be her biological mother, but that woman cannot now be traced.
And you may be interested to know that at the time of Jessen's birth, not only was a 28-week abortion illegal in Califorinia, but so was refusing medical aid to a baby born alive from an abortion. So why wasn't the abortionist prosecuted?

And what the heck has Fathers4Justice got to do with this topic?

How a saline-induced abortion actually works:  http://pub30.bravenet.com/forum/2550469328/fetch/33693/
This makes a complete nonsense of Gienna Jessen's story about being "burned" for hours in the womb.

"Human Gestational Material (HGM)" = A human baby.
"any organism or developing organism" = A human baby.
"fetal demise" = The death of the baby.

Quoted from the webpage mentioned above by Sophia8.

I thought I should give a translation of the cold, callous, clinical language used by this website to refer to the murder of unborn children and babies. In particular notice the dehumanizing and depersonalizing language used about the baby in order to supposedly avoid emotive language. Contrast this with the emotive language used by feminists when discussing rape. In reality, it is a psychological trick so that a woman having an abortion can absolve herself of any guilt for her complicity in an act of murder.

"This makes a complete nonsense of Gienna Jessen's story about being "burned" for hours in the womb."

Well something sure as hell gave her Cerebral Palsy and meant that she didn't walk until she was four. Also, the website quoted by Sophia8 clearly states that there have been instances of saline abortions where the child has been born alive. Therefore, we can conclude that it there is a significant chance that this story is true.

"And what the heck has Fathers4Justice got to do with this topic? "

Because it is all to do with feminist hypocrisy. Feminists believe that when a woman is pregnant, the only person who matters is the woman. They do not regard the baby as human, or if they do, think that it has no rights as it is hitching a lift inside the body of WOMYN.

Least of all do they regard that the father has any rights regarding the pregnancy and child. So, for example if a father wanted to keep the child and the mother wanted an abortion, he would be powerless. However, a controversial area of discussion and probably quite rare.

So, on the one hand feminists want men to share in the upbringing of children and to provide maintenance if seperated, but on the other hand deny men any rights regarding their unborn child (not to mention the child), and deny men the right to see their children and be a part of their lives if the couple are divorced.

This is why Fathers4Justice have become such a hate figure for feminism and their establishment friends. They highlight the hypocrisy and the fraud of feminism in it's attitudes towards children, the unborn and most of all men.

And before you start whinging about the Patriarchy oppressing womyn, how is it that all these laws have come into place in the first place. Because feminism and the idea of the Patriarchy is the biggest pile of hogwash ever inflicted upon society.

I will conclude with a quote from Gianna Jessen herself:

"If abortion is merely about women's rights, then what were mine? There wasn't those particular kind of feminist squawking about my rights, in fact, those types of feminists prefer I'd die,"

Hi Joe, Since you clearly believe in the importance of fathers in family life, it's very surprising to me that you missed a significant part of Jessen's story - namely, that it has a large father-shaped hole in it. She says nothing about her biological father, and nothing about any adoptive father. She appears to have been bought up in a single-parent all-female household - something that her Christian backers would normally condemm. Very strange.
Anyway, Joe, please don't drag in strawman arguments. I am just pointing out that this woman's story should not be believed - she is making a living from telling people this fairy-tale, and pro-lifers who back her are going to be left looking gullible and stupid when she is revealed as a hoax.

"you missed a significant part of Jessen's story - namely, that it has a large father-shaped hole in it."

Rubbish. See following quote from article.

"Through sheer perseverance, and support from her adoptive family, she took her first step when she was four."

I expect the adoptive family included a mother and a father as is usual in most cases.

"She appears to have been bought up in a single-parent all-female household"

Where the hell did you get this from?

"please don't drag in strawman arguments."

That's what you are doing.

"I am just pointing out that this woman's story should not be believed"

And I am just pointing out the hypocrisy of feminism and women in general.

"And I am just pointing out the hypocrisy of feminism and women in general."
So go and do that on some appropriate forum. I am commenting on this woman's highly claims. Period.
You have clearly not looked into her story at all - I have, and nowhere does she talk about an adoptive father. And she dismisses the man who gave her half her genes with a sentence of two; in her account he might just as well not exist. And you're defending her?
1)Her description of being "burned for 18 hours in the womb by the saline solution" is simply not physically possible; saline solution does not burn and is only about twice the salinity of ammnitic fluid.
2) She has just one piece of paper to prove that she survived an abortion, according to her story. Has that piece of paper been verified?
3) There is nothing whatsoever to corroborate her lurid account of her mother's abortion experience; her biological mother has never come forward publicly to confim the story.
4) Where is the proof that she ever had cerebral palsy?
5) Jessen appears to be a professional "testifier"; since the age of 14, she has been tauring around, telling her tale to churches and pro-life rallies. She has no other career, no other way of making money, except from speaking and appearence fees. At these appearences, she milks peoples' emotions to the bottom with her sad tale. Over and over and over again.

Hence my distrust of her. Please, Joe, keep to the point or I will not bother to come back.

"You have clearly not looked into her story at all - I have"

Link to the research you have done.

"And she dismisses the man who gave her half her genes with a sentence of two"

Given that he appears to have abandoned her to a mother who wanted to destroy her with chemical weapons, it isn't surprising she doesn't mention him much.

"She has just one piece of paper to prove that she survived an abortion"

As already mentioned, your website clearly states it has been known for babies to survive saline abortions.

"her biological mother has never come forward publicly to confim the story."

Does this really surprise you?

"Jessen appears to be a professional "testifier";"

If this is the case post the evidence.

"keep to the point"

Your point is that you are sceptical about the truth of what Gianna Jessen says. My point is that contraception should be used to limit unwanted pregnancies and not abortion, and that this issue highlights a fundamental moral, political and humanitarian flaw in the arguments of Pro-Abortion feminists.

BBC news article from 6th Dec.

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4500022.stm

Google links.

 http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2005-38,RNWE:en&q=gianna+jessen

This comment from a pro life contributor said it all: "In particular notice the dehumanizing and depersonalizing language used about the baby in order to supposedly avoid emotive language."

Exactly. If abortion is so 'right', why do pro-death supporters use misleading language to HIDE what abortion is? Why do they object to images of dead babies (sorry - 'foetuses') being shown by pro life rs?

What could you possibly be trying to hide?

Why don't you pro deathers ever explain HOW so many women are SO stupid that they just 'accidentally' get pregnant all the time?
We know they aren't 'accidents' because no women are having ten or more children by 'accident', are they? Since presumably most women are sexually active for twenty five years at least, in their lives, they could easily have sex 300 times each year, making 7,500 sexual acts in a lifetime. Surely just TEN of them would occur during a period when they'd 'accidentally' forgotten to take their pill? Or when their 'man's' condom 'broke'? (Sure...)

Oh look. Complete silence and no response from the baby murdering women who can't keep their legs shut for five minutes, nor live without a 'man' (read - thug) for even a couple of days...