Animal abuse
Juggler | 26.10.2005 14:21 | Animal Liberation | Education
protest on Wednesday night outside a circus over its use of animals and the UK's last performing bear.
Join the protest on Wednesday night outside a circus over its use of animals and the UK's last performing bear.
Peter Jolly's Circus, which has pitched its tents on land off the A6 Chorley Road, Blackrod uses many animals including a black bear called Ming.
It is the only one touring Britain with a bear, which is walked into the ring during the show and drinks a bottle of milk before being returned to her cage. The RSPCA has previously offered a home in a sanctuary for 23-year-old Ming but the circus has refused to let her go.
The circus is based on land off the A6 Chorley Road. The protest will take place at 6pm ahead of the 6.30pm performance of the circus, which is in town until Sunday
Juggler
Comments
Hide the following 34 comments
Human Rights
26.10.2005 16:04
I think that might be a slightly better use of your energies dont you?
More money for vicitms if you do this, less if you do not.
Memory-Hole-Catchers-Mitt
Human Wrongs
26.10.2005 17:15
I absolutely support the idea of people donating money to earthquake vicims in Pakistan. But the whole ethos that says 'while people suffer, there's no point/need doing anything about animal suffering' is just plain daft..
People - and animals - suffer in natural disasters. People - and animals - suffer because of human cruelty. People who are cruel to animals are often cruel to people too...
All oppression is wrong. Give the bear a break. Support this protest.
Buzz
You are proposing exactly what?
26.10.2005 17:34
Surely you cannot be serious?
Memory-Hole-Catchers-Mitt
Halt politics
26.10.2005 17:41
Does this apply to all the activity being publicised on Indymedia?
--
Here's a proposal for you
26.10.2005 18:06
How about you come down to the circus and then afterwards you could invite people to go along with you knocking on doors?
Or, were you just being Argumentative?
Eeeeemmm............
Croltbopper
You are proposing exactly what
26.10.2005 18:21
Animals welfare matters. Memory-Hole-Catchers-Mitt - as a troll you'd always say there's a human in need, well animals have needs and we share our planet with them and should not cruelly exploit them or take destroy their natural habitats. If we listened to you we'd never help a single animal.
Ming the bear feels love and pain like humans and all mammals. If humans weren't so cruel, Ming could be in a natural environment and be with other bears.
Serious
How cruel is this
26.10.2005 22:00
Dave
Dear All
26.10.2005 22:15
While people are suffering it is an insult to them to spend time alleviating the suffering of animals if that time could be spent alleviating those people’s suffering instead.
Dear –
Where did I suggest all politics should come to a halt until the Pakistan victims have been sorted out? Building the anti-war movement would be another great use of time. And it would prevent a larger amount of cruelty to animals than the bear protest, if that’s what motivates you.
Dear Croltbopper
While people are suffering it is an insult to them to spend time alleviating the suffering of animals if that time could be spent alleviating those people’s suffering instead.
Dear Serious
I am at work when I write on Indymedia. I work shift work and I can’t do collections at work for Pakistan.
“animals have needs and we share our planet with them and should not cruelly exploit them or take destroy their natural habitats. If we listened to you we'd never help a single animal.”
Exactly the opposite is true. The only way to stop cruelty to animals is to fight for human rights. Only a society that cages people can cage battery hens.
“Ming the bear feels love and pain like humans and all mammals. If humans weren't so cruel, Ming could be in a natural environment and be with other bears.”
You make two mistakes here. You draw an equals sign between the feelings of an animal and a human. And you fail to provide an explanation as to why society acts cruelly towards animals in some instances which is why you are incapable of ending the causes of animal cruelty.
Memory-Hole-Catchers-Mitt
Vulgar Sanctimony
27.10.2005 05:58
Good for the circus protesters. And for those raising aid for the victims of the Pakistan earthquakes. They're not necessarily mutually exclusive, and they're all doing their bit to realise their visions of a better world. Meanwhile Indymedia becomes more and more irrelevant.
Caz
hhmmm?
27.10.2005 08:22
er, run that one past me again?
human's have a lot more rights than animals, and both suffer at the hands of people.
I believe that animals are more deserving of our compassion and help than stupid hairless monkeys whose brains are too big.
monkey
-
27.10.2005 08:44
-g-
humans and animals
27.10.2005 10:17
1. The earthquake victims from Pakistan, and humans killed in natural disasters generally already are being provided with a great deal of help, including receiving funds from governments. So the marginal benefit of one more person helping will be better for the bear than the earthquake victims.
2. Some people are more passionate about animal rights, and some have skills that can be better used in pursuit of animal rights. Conversly others feel more passsionately/have skills in helping earthquake victims. It makes sense for each person to do what they are passionate/skilled in.
I have also found as a general rule that those who say they cannot do anything about animal rights because humans come first are not doing anything for humans either. On the other hand animal rights activists are generally also concerned about human victims of oppression that the mainstream government and charitable aid agencies miss, and on human rights genrally.
Phil
Dear All
27.10.2005 11:47
Please quote a single insulting word I have used. What you are insulted by is anyone disagreeing with you. Human suffering is a greater and more urgent cause than animal suffering. I assert this as self-evident fact.
Dear Monkey
I will be happy to run it by you again. The only way to stop cruelty to animals is to fight for human rights. Only a society that cages people can cage battery hens.
“I believe that animals are more deserving of our compassion and help than stupid hairless monkeys whose brains are too big.”
Nuff said.
Dear Phil
Everything you say may indeed be correct. But what does it have to do with my proposal that all those who turn up to protest about the bear should instead be invited to do a local door to door collection for Pakistan? You did not say whether you support my suggestion or not. And if not, why not.
Memory-Hole-Catchers-Mitt
RSCPA
27.10.2005 12:09
This is not legislation that can help us free the animals from our whims and stupidity. The only thing that can do that is dedicated people turning up on demonstrations, marches and other actions.
It is not an insult to humans to protest for animals whilst they suffer. If we didn't mistreat animals, would it be likely that we would mistreat humans? I think not. Far more animals are cruelly treated each year by humans than humans. This is a simple fact.
There will always be help for the humans that are suffering through groups such as the UN, Oxfam, Red Cross etc... But whenever a group tries to help animals they eventually get labelled as 'extremists' or 'terrorists' - thus damaging anything good that they achieve.
Groups such as BUAV, Animal Aid, VIVA and PETA have all been labelled extremists - when their goal is education.
fredrico
e-mail:
musteatvegan@yahoo.co.uk
fact?
27.10.2005 13:56
Why is it more urgent? I know it sounds harsh but to me the suffering of billions of animals per year (worldwide) carries far greater urgency than the millions of humans - however the humans should not be forgotten and indeed they aren't. Instead what we have is a unfair bias towards humans - leaving animals to be the 'underlings' and 'slaves' of the modern world.
fredrico
e-mail:
musteatvegan@yahoo.co.uk
Cloud Cuckoo Land
27.10.2005 15:25
It is bizarre enough when an equals sign is drawn between human suffering and animal suffering. But now it seems we have strayed into cloud cuckoo land.
Memroy-Hole-Catchers-Mitt
Missed Opportunity
27.10.2005 17:37
Well Well well well well, there they were, people willing to go round after the demo collecting but where were you? A truly good opportunity to bolster the collection and you weren't there were you?
it does appear that the whole of your claims were merely meant to irritate and cause arguement - you had the opportunity to go and do a collection but you did not.
resident of Cloud Cuckoo Land
Interesting
27.10.2005 18:13
And the reason is because I have not guaranteed to turn up.
It seems the needs of Pakistan come a poor second to your requirements of me.
Interesting.
Memory-Hole-Catchers-Mitt
Why?
27.10.2005 18:15
fredrico
e-mail:
musteatvegan@yahoo.co.uk
Reasons
27.10.2005 19:16
2. Because the only way to liberate animals is for humans to liberate themselves.
The time proposed to be spent on the bear protest could be spent collecting more money for Pakistan. This is more of a priority, and will also do more for animal liberation than the bear protest, for precisely the reasons listed above.
Memory-Hole-Catchers-Mitt
"my cause's suffering is greater than your cause's suffering"
28.10.2005 04:22
Danny
Iraq
28.10.2005 08:43
I try and identify the key link in the political chain. The Iraq war remains the fault line in British and world politics. Not because more people are dying there than anywhere else. Not because Iraq is special. But because Iraq concentrates everything that people hate about capitalism and has been the issue around which most people can be mobilized.
Memory-Hole-Catchers-Mitt
Blinkered socialists
28.10.2005 10:09
you really are a fine example of a self important blinkered socialist that only sees the world and its problems in terms of your interests, i.e. the fight to overthrow capitalism. there are many more pressing concerns that need addressing not least bringing an end to animal suffering and ensuring that the wealth of species on the planet are not driven to extinction by mans greed.
Neither overthrowing capitalism, ending the war in Iraq or standing with a bucket collecting funds for the victims of the earthquake in Pakistan and India will achieve those aims, which some people see as being equally as important as your desire to overthrow capitalism etc.
Is it the case with you that we are either with you or agianst you? I seem to have heard that before.
Oh and lets not forget that the great communist dream that was Mao's China slaughtered more wildlife than Margaret Thatcher ever did! He even managed to drive the tiger in China to extinction after classifying it as a pest and probably a class traitor.
Try taking off the blinkers and try looking at the bigger picture, there is a lot of shit happening out there and a lot of people trying to do what they can to address it.
Danger
Razor sharp factional minds
28.10.2005 11:58
Quote were I suggested people attending the bear protest are either with or against me you liar.
Name a single case of animal suffering that is a “more pressing concern” than a campaign fighting for human rights.
“There is a lot of shit happening out there and a lot of people trying to do what they can to address it.”
But still you refuse to tell us what you think of my proposal – that people attending the bear protest should be invited to collect for Pakistan instead. Why are you afraid to give us your view and provide reasons for it?
Memory-Hole-Catchers-Mitt
Imagine That!
28.10.2005 13:12
Yeh! Shame on You! Favouring intelligent, sentient humans over animals! Stuff the child buried in an earthquake - save a chicken today!!
Amused
If you insist
28.10.2005 14:03
I infer your possible desire to overthrow capitalism by having had the pleasure of reading other of your posts on other threads and from "Iraq concentrates everything that people hate about capitalism and has been the issue around which most people can be mobilized" sounds like you have a problem with capitalism. I also seem to recall you saying somewhere that you are a socialist or marxist or some ist. And i guess that presupposes a desire to see the back of capitalism. Please inform me of your political persuasion if i am wrong.
Again i infer from the fact that you are unable to see that people might think that a cause different from your own is as worthy of their time as yours is to you. You state that the welfare of humans is more important than the welfare of animals and therefore should take priority. This is your opinion. not necessarily everybody elses. You also fail to grasp the concept that people can and do and indeed should be able to concentrate on more than one issue at a time. Having strong beliefs about the sufering of a bear in a circus can also go hand in hand with having compassionate feelings for those who have suffered in the recent earthquake. In fact many that may be demonstrating about the bear will have given to the relief fund.
However, the place to protest about a captive bear is, I would have thought, the ciscus where it is being held captive. there are plenty of places collecting for the earthquake. Maybe you could handle that one and others can get on with the bear.
Sadly you misread my previous post, my fault for poor punctuation. It should have read there are OTHER pressing concerns rather than more pressing concerns. And yes other concerns are just as valid as your concerns. Other points of view are just as important and relevant as your points of view. And i was under th eimpression that the earthquake issue was more of disaster relief than human rights, but never mind.
I am not afraid to give you my view. People attending the bear protest should be protesting about the captive bear not collecting for the earthquake. Unless of course you would be willing to campaign for the freeing of captive bears whilst you are out collecting for the victims of the earthquake - are you?
remember that there is no one correct opinion and that goes across the board. Please don't try to impose your life philosphies on others. It's very dictatorial, almost stalinesque.
have fun and happy trolling, you certainly got a rise out of me.
Danger
justification
28.10.2005 15:09
Amused, you should probably study the facts a little more before deciding that "Yeh! Shame on You! Favouring intelligent, sentient humans over animals! Stuff the child buried in an earthquake - save a chicken today!!".
Here are a few pointers - the argument that has occurred above has been 1. about a single bear, and 2. been about general animal liberation through protest. I have been arguing for the importance of animal liberation over the importance of human suffering. Not because humans deserve less attention but because of the scale of animal suffering. If we, as a species, did not act in a cruel manner to animals then the likelyhood of us acting cruelly to humans is much reduced.
- Sentient is defined variously as "able to feel; sensitive; having sensation or feeling", "Self-aware, choice-making consciousness. Humans and cetaceans (dolphins and whales) are the two sentient species on earth.", "Sentience is the capacity for basic consciousness — the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness. The word sentient is often confused with the word sapient, which can connotate knowledge, higher consciousness, or apperception. The root of the confusion is that the word conscious has a number of different meanings in English. (One can easily distinguish the two by looking at their Latin roots: sentire, "to feel"; and sapere, "to know".) ". This has been shown in animal behaviour experiments (viewing animals in their natural habitat etc...) to be true of animals. Sentience is also seen as the question 'Can the suffer' (Jeremy Bentham).
It isn't a case of 'stuff the child, save the chicken' it is variously 'save the child and the hundreds of millions of chickens', 'there are enough humans on the earth to be able to stop cruelty' and 'why should animals suffer just because they can't speak'.
I understand you are both trolling but I feel that this information is important to have published on the web so have put this time into writing it.
fredrico
e-mail:
musteatvegan@yahoo.co.uk
Logic?
28.10.2005 19:25
This makes about as much sense as, "As soon as we can learn to stop killing other people's children, we can learn to stop killing our own."
I think you've got it the wrong way around. Empathy and compassion derives from learning to respect ourselves, then those near to us and like us, then those distant from us and unlike us.
If there is a tricke-down effect as you suggest, I'd much rather people started looking after other people rather than after animals. The animals would get their turn in due course. If there isn't, then given the choice, I'd rather they looked after people at the expense of animals.
Put it in more bleak terms, you can most certainly save a child in Pakistan from starvation this winter, or you can attempt to improve the lot of Britain's last performing bear.
That's not a difficult choice in my book.
Zorro
the dream
29.10.2005 08:31
xx see u at the circus
Ming
Ming the Bear
BAMAMOTBDLEGCIGIIRTOIMMS
29.10.2005 18:07
i am mighty Mong bear. i stand for 'BAM' (bears against ming).
Ming is a bastard, shes been acting in the circus for years, she never wrote to me. i could have been in that circus i tell you, daddy told me so, he told me i could have been a dancing bear like ming, i just didnt want to anyway, do i look like im bothered? does this face look like it cares?
yeah, so stuff you ming, i HATE you. you dont deserve to be in the circus, its bad, its like abuse yeah, ABUSE. think of the bastards subjected to watching you, think your fricking great, hey. yeah.
BAM meets every tuesday in mong castle in the woods of manchester south. BAM has actions points, we aint just talk.
1. BAM stands for bears against bears in circus's
2. BAM is a sub group of 'BAMAMOTBDLEGCIGIIRTOIMMS' (bears against ming and most other things bears dont like especially green cheese, its gross isnt it, urgh, thinking of it makes me sick)
3. BAM is active in its character, we take action on bears we dont like, we beat them with sticks till they cant walk
4. BAM is more than 1 self hating bear
5. BAM is against dancing, its not clever and its defianly not FUN
BAM is going to find you ming, if its the last thing i do, i'll find you, you'll never walk again!
mong
e-mail:
mong@bearsagainstming.org.uk
Homepage:
http://www.bearsagainstming.org.uk
ARE HUMANS REALLY HUMANS?
30.10.2005 21:15
John
help both
30.10.2005 21:23
But the human supremesists are franticly worried from their view that ANIMALS will be given equal Concern to them thus breaking the self created fictionalod who goes by the name of HUMAN BEING.
Leo
For the Attention of Memory-Hole-Catchers-Mitt
01.11.2005 15:42
Bob
rgbsrb
02.11.2005 00:55
rsgrs