It is missed by many people that Israel committs its CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY openly, and with pride. I think too many of us are so far removed from the logic and psychology of those that wage brutal war for gain, that we stupidly project our values on them.

The people of Israel, and those that support them, have NO WISH to be seen as a 'good' people. Instead, they crave to an extraordinary degree that people fear them. This should not come as ANY surprise, since the Old Testament DOES NOT portray a loving god, but a sick psycho of a god, a vile racist who is prepared to give power to his 'chosen people' as a contract for their worship.

WHAT ADULT HUMANS THINK MATTERS. WHAT LARGE GROUPS OF ADULTS CHOSE TO THINK IN UNISON MATTERS A HELL OF A LOT MORE.

Religion is not a joke, but a profound sickness of the Human Mind. Some sicknesses affect only the person afflicted. Other sicknesses may have a wider consequence. What we should all care to see is the creation of effective cures.

In a way, the existence of the so-called state of Israel allows all of us to see a perfect specimen of the potential dangers of a first-world religion. While we fool ourselves into believing that violence is the natural domain of a few thuggish individuals, the truth of life is VERY different, and Israel provides a nice study of this.

Here we have a group of people that literally live for the violence they can do (and get away with) to others.If god's will says that you give everyone else a kicking, then everyone else will get a kicking. If god's will says that only you are really human, and everyone else are really just cattle, then the cattle are in for a really bad time.

With Israel, the most amusing comment by by its supporters is that if Israel were REALLY wicked, it would have gone much further in its crimes. Fine, except Israel decides EXACTLY what it can get away with, and then it does exactly that, and then a lot more on top. If Israel had the same options as Nazi Germany, be in NO DOUBT that Israel would NOT show the hesitancy that limited many of the Nazi atrocities.

Religion does that to people, when it sells them the idea that they are a 'master-race', or (exactly the same concept) a 'chosen-people'. Given that being a 'chosen-people' doesn't then allow you to fly, or move mountains with your mind, or do ANYTHING that demonstrates that you are special, the distinction is created by taking away from those that are NOT the 'chosen-people'. The logic is pretty bloody obvious if you think about it, and has been demonstrated so many times through our bloody history.

Funny, powerful people were once controlled by forcing them to 'kneel' before their god. Today the same people are controlled by telling them that by realising that religion is a pathetic mind-trap of the weak-willed, they are superior by being above that. Intellectual arrogance makes too many of us conveniently blind. Religion is still a force above all other on this planet, and those that seek to control that power have a real chance of reigning supreme.

If you really want to get to grips with this, study Scientology. This religion (harmless compared to the main religions of Earth, but with the potential to be very significant in the future) has a history recent enough to be completely understood. Its founder, a semi-successful author of pulp sci-fi, realised that the early fans of sci-fi (and its authors) were like the religious fanatics of old. Having a complete distain of religion, and its modern equivalent psychology (or psychiatry), Mr Ron Hubbard found himself unable to resist the lure of a simple experiment. Could a pseudo-religious movement be created using the trappings of sci-fi and a dose of psychology.

The mind experiment became a real one, and the results ended up interesting Hubbard more than his writing. Of course, Ron Hubbard was a cynic who considered that simple-minded humans deserved to be fodder for his games. His grand mistake was this- it does not matter how crappy or phoney the origins of a religion. A religion ends up becoming the possession of its believers. Today, Scientology is as valid a religion as any on this Earth, which isn't saying much, and isn't saying little. In the dim and distant future, Ron Hubbard may well become as significant as Jesus or Mohammad, as much as that amuses those of us that know the truth.

The power of religion is not its truth (just as well, else none of them would have ANY power whatsoever). The power of religion is in people's need to believe, and to believe that their neighbours believe the same thing as well. An artificial and imaginary tie that binds. And then the crimes committed in the name of this religion only bind the people even closer.

I'm not being fair,though. For myself, and a small proportion of other humans, religion is transparently idiotic, and the greatest curse of mankind. But this is like having eyes in a world full of blind people- what is so obvious to you can never be fully known by others. It is clear to me that the vast majority of humans are born vunerable to the concept of religion . In a world where each person should seek their own understanding and belief systems based on their own thoughts and experiences, most people willingly choose to follow religious leaders NO BETTER (and in many cases FAR worse) than Ron Hubbard.

I would rather be dead, than let another human think for me. It would seem that most would prefer to have another think for them, and in doing so condemn themselves to death on a global scale.

Why are there never any human shields for Isreal to defend Israeli schools and buses from Palestinian terrorists ?

Because israel is a racist colonialist facist state dimwit.

The idea of a chosen people is that we were chosen by God to bear his commandments and follow his laws.

Some Jews do and some do not.

Clearly you have a problem with this, which Mr Hubbard has not managed to answer for you.

Twilight - kindly answer - why do you hate the Jews so much; please do not answer by saying that you only hate Zionist Jews, because in your numerous previous posts, you make no distinction and merely attack all Jews and express your absurd conspiracy theories.

Did someting happen to you in your youth? were you wronged by a Jew? if so is it right to allow this hatred to consume you and to turn it against all Jews, just as your hero Hitler did?

Very concerned: Well, I didn't read anything racist. That's what you make out of it.

Just like people who didn't want to go to war with Iraq and protest against the war and against Bush are anti-American.

Well, it's simply not true - I met several Jews (with banners saying Jews against the war) and several Americans at the Stop The War Protests in London.

Does that mean they're anti-Jewish or anti-American. No!

What it seems to me is that you want to all of a sudden ignore the main article and go off at another tangent.

So basically anything that opposes your views must be anti your religion or race.

So who is the real racist!

Using innocent civilians as cover - well, that's just disgusting.

"The idea of a chosen people is that we were chosen by God to bear his commandments and follow his laws"

The trouble is, me ol' china, that that's what those of us who are (hopefully) devout Christians think. And I've got a strong suspicion that our Muslim friends think likewise. That would, of course, include many of the Palestinians. All of us devoutly believe our own religious views, but the smarter amongst us recognise that there are different belief systems and respect them. Even if we think them wrong.

Just because the Torah says that Israel is "your" country doesn't mean you can swipe it off the sitting tenants. Christian claims of religious supremacy didn't give them the right to launch the Crusades and bump off loads of innocent Muslims (and, I suspect, Jews). Claiming to be God's only true followers doesn't justify Muslims killing innocent people anywhere.

Maybe I should write a book based on a dietical vision claiming that I should have overlordship of Scotland. It is my land and I can thrown anyone I like out........will the Israeli people support me, if I can convince them it is a message from God?

I think 'very concerned' has a valid point, the claim to be 'anti-zionist' does at times seem like an excuse to indulge in the sort of hate speech which is sometimes difficult to distinguish from straightforward anti-semitism. Twilight does seem to have an obsession with Nazi Germany, he references it in virtually all of his posts, and his comment on the thread concerning the death of Simon Wiesenthal ( a post subsequently hidden) where he said :'He is dead and I won't cry on (sic) him nor on the pseudo six millions of holocaust victims' seems to me to go well beyond so called 'anti-zionism' (This post, which I read at the time, has been quoted subsequently, in utter disbelief, on the Indymedia Watch wesbite). Does being anti-zionist mean embracing any old source, no matter how biased or bigoted, alleging 'jewish conspiracies'. The likes of 'Der Ewige Jude' hardly qualify as impartial do they?

Was actually posted under the name gaz.

Do you see the irony in quoting Indymedia Watch and then talking of " embracing any old source, no matter how biased or bigoted," in the same post?

mmm...I have made comments on both threads relating to anti-semitism on this site and neither seem to have been put up on the site, despite being made some time ago now. Is it because I used a direct quote from a subsequently deleted posting by Twilight on the 'Simon Wiesanthal is dead' thread? If so, it is difficult for me to express my support for 'Very Concerned's post without this use of the quote. Suffice to say, my original post stated that sometimes so called anti-zionism does seem to be not very far removed from plain old anti-semitism. I cited Twilight, who claims to be merely anti-zionist, as an example, because in his deleted post he seemed to deny the reality of, or at least the number of victims involved in, the Nazi Holocaust. Such questioning of the 'six million' in recent decades has emerged from right wing, pro Hitler revisionists, few, if any, of which are trained historians at all. Re-iterating these views constitutes more than anti-zionism, it displays a willingness to embrace any spurious claim, no matter how biased or illfounded, in order to support an alleged anti-zionist stance. As I have said elsewhere, while not all anti-zionists are anti-semites, all anti-semites are undoubtedly anti-zionist.

...and read the comment by ex-brit, which makes reference to Twilight's deleted post, I was not quoting from Gaz's posts (which also appear to have been hidden.

...I cannot prove this now as the post was deleted but if you read ex-Brit's comments on the same thread he notes Twilights deleted post - I have no idea what Gaz said. With respect to Indy Media watch, fair point - but they did not make up the post, those comments were made as I remember reading it at the time.

I did check it, and it was 'gaz' who posted that comment. Ex-Brit quoted something completely different.

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