The situation in New Orleans goes from bad to worse

UK IMC | 03.09.2005 12:19 | Ecology | Social Struggles | World

In possibly the biggest natural disaster of US history, hurricane Katrina has left devastation in New Orleans and surrounding areas. Things have gone from bad to worse. Martial law is declared in New Orleans City. The National Guard is deployed, with the order to 'Shoot To Kill' in an attempt to 'stop looting'.

Updates on the hurricane disaster on New Orleans Indymedia | Coverage of the refugee situation on Houston Indymedia

More Links: Weather Warning (28th August) | Democracy Now! reports (Aug. 30) (Aug. 31) (Sept. 1) (Sept. 2) | Explanation about Hurricanes (MP3) | Further analysis: 1 , 2 , 3 | Insane looting? - Not at all! | An analysis of the 'anarchy' in New Orleans' streets Commentary from the Newswire: Katrina open letter to radical/progressive community (From Houston) | In Praise of Looting | American Genocide in New Orleans | Michael Moore's open letter to Bush

However, reports say the National Guard is also blocking supplies getting into the affected area's. A group of 500 airboat pilots trying to support the rescue effort were stopped and sent back. It is estimated 300,000 people are still trapped by the water. In an interview, the Mayor of New Orleans, Ray Nagin, lashed out at the Federal Authority, telling them to 'get off their arses'. Download interview. The US government is receiving a lot of criticism as rescue efforts have been chaotic and aid started to arrive only four days after the hurricane struck.

Priorities of a corporate empire: Bush cut $20-$40 million needed to strengthen levees - a 2004 project that was 80% complete. Needing troops, he sent 35% of Louisiana's National Guard to Iraq. Then he pushed to privatise disaster services including the N.O. disaster plan, and disabled FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency).

"Things were so crazy: it was all poor black people and old white people - the people who couldn't afford to get out." William Quigley, a Law Professor at Loyola University said: "They are estimating that it may take several days to evacuate these people. Water, electricity, food, security all will be gone by then." Indeed, enforced evacuations began on Aug 30, following a mass exodus from the city in advance of the hurricane - but initial estimates that expected them to be complete by the evening of August 30th were overly optimistic. And, while outside agencies struggle to help, thousands remain stuck - including inside hospitals [ 1 | 2 ]

Despite years old warnings that New Orleans was a major risk for flooding following a hurricane, funding was slashed and Louisiana State and US Federal rescue services have now been unable to cope with the developing tragedy in the wake of Hurricane Katrina earlier this week. Flood waters continue to rise, and more people are being threatened with their lives on an hourly basis: emergency evacuation centers - including the Superdome - are isolated and State governor, Kathleen Blanco has called for the complete evacuation of the city. Further claims state that it will be months before the city becomes inhabitable again.

Meanwhile, it appears that priorities were focused elsewhere: it seems the US is more concerned with oil - the price of petrol is rising and both Florida and Hawaii are trying to conserve their stocks, following on from the devastating effects of Katrina in the Gulf of Mexico; questions are also being asked if the National Guard is being stretched thin by Iraq War? And while Bush can't meet anti-war protestors, his plane is diverted over New Orleans. The irony doesn't stop...

UK IMC

Comments

Hide the following 32 comments

The Dark Side of Black People

03.09.2005 13:32

The Dark Side of Black People
Leighton Levy, Jamaica Star, Sept. 2

Let me start by saying that if I had my life to live over a thousand times, the one thing I would not change would be my race. I am proud to be a black man. There are times however, when I wish that certain people and I did not share that trait.

For the past few days, the whole world … well, at least those who have access to satellite and cable television, have been seeing pictures of the virtually total devastation of the cities of the U.S. Gulf Coast by Hurricane Katrina. An estimated 90 per cent of homes in New Orleans have been destroyed by flood waters and more than 100 people have been confirmed dead.

We see people standing on the roofs of their submerged homes desperate to be rescued, others being airlifted to safety, and we have heard tear-jerking stories of families losing their loved ones. But in all of this, we have also seen the really dark side of black people.

The day after the hurricane passed, there were reports of looting but network reporters had been saying that people were looting out of desperation, in search of food and water. A lot they knew.

The pictures I have been seeing are of people—black people—stealing shoes, diapers, and television sets. Not food and definitely not water. Not unless the armfuls of clothing, shoes, and appliances I see people wading through the streets with count as food and water.

Now, if all the looters were looting out of desperation, how desperate were the guy and girls I saw toting several boxes of size 13 Nikes? How desperate was the fellow with the stack of diapers? What, is it that he has several babies at home suffering from loose bowels? What am I talking about, what home? Everything is under water and what isn’t, has been totally destroyed.

Plasma TV?

And just what are those guys stealing the plasma television sets going to be watching when there is no power in the entire city?

Desperation? Yeah, right. I am beginning to believe that black people, no matter where in the world they are, are cursed with a genetic predisposition to steal, murder, and create mayhem.

The entire firearm department at a Wal-Mart department store, for example, was cleaned out and the looters used the stolen weapons to rob people. How low is that? Everybody is suffering and the black people would seek to rob people who are suffering just like themselves.

No white looters?

And it has nothing to do with poverty. Where are the white people in all this? I am sure there are poor white people living in New Orleans, Biloxi and the other towns affected by what has been going on. Is it that the media are not showing pictures of them looting and robbing? Or is it that they are too busy trying to stay alive, waiting to be rescued, and hiding from the blacks.

And you know what? Even if the poor whites were looting and robbing, wouldn’t it be nice if the blacks could have made them the only ones doing it

Just once, I would like for us blacks to take the high road in situations like this, where instead of showing our darkest side, we put our best foot forward. But I guess that would be too much to ask, too much of a case of wishful thinking.

Leighton Levy

Levy vs levee

03.09.2005 15:11

Now, whilst there is no doubt that the white massah will approve of Leighton Levy's respect for private property, the article has nothing useful to say at all.

As a self proclaimed black man he offers us this:

" I am beginning to believe that black people, no matter where in the world they are, are cursed with a genetic predisposition to steal, murder, and create mayhem."

Okay - a genetic predisposition to rob, kill and riot. So, do all black people do these things? Nope? Do some white people do these thigs? Yup! Do all white people do these things? Nope? Welcome to Leighton's circular verbal wank session.

"And it has nothing to do with poverty."

Judging by the behaviour of the US ruling class in Iraq, that is absolutely true. Even rich people rob, kill and cause mayhem - and most of them are white. However, there is a definite correlation between poverty and the people left behind in New Orleans.

" Even if the poor whites were looting and robbing, wouldn't it be nice if the blacks could have made them the only ones doing it"

Yup - thats right folks - judge all black people by the actions of some black people. Judge all white people by the actions of some white people.

And what you end up with is a world populated with people capable of robbing, rioting and killing.

At most the article testifies to the power of selective media portrayal to bamboozle shallow thinkers like Leighton Levy.

Now, if Massah Bush hadn't stolen the money for levees to defend New Orleans from exactly this sort of scenario, then Leighton might well have had to write some other shit instead.

Oh yeah, and next time, why not link to the article - like this:

http://www.jamaica-star.com/thestar/20050902/cleisure/cleisure1.html ?

unimpressed

"THE WATER IS RISING, PLEASE HELP"

03.09.2005 18:45

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gcf/39620002/

pic

Desperation has no Colour

03.09.2005 18:56

If you had been in blistering in extreme heat, forgotten by your country, surrounded by the corpses of your peers, without food and clean fluids, do you honestly think you'd be acting rationally? and frankly who cares what they'll do with the TVs, trainers or nappies? let them take them if they, however misguidedly, think they want them! who else is gonna need them in New Orleans now?
now is not the time to be judging the actions of those left in that godforsaken hellhole. its a time to be helping, doing everything we can for them! if you want someone to judge, judge the fucking Bush administration! words cannot express my horror at the lack of concern, empathy and ACTION demontrated by those in power in the US. those poor poor people have effectively been left there to rot.
who gives a shit about the nike trainers?

Cat

Nothing to see with race

04.09.2005 02:00

Just think about the British hooligans. They ain't black. Just social and cultural frustration breeding violence and crime. Some of that social class that temporarily ends thus in prison then feeds the low army ranks. It's almost organised for it it seems. Man management I have been told by an inmate more clever than the average with whom I briefly shared an hostel some years ago.

Along that line I fear that all the healthy and jobless males and females of fighting age from NOLA that have been now rounded up and parked here and there are soon going to be forced into the army ranks for the Iraq effort if they want to get some food to eat.

Ideally they should find employement in the rebuilding of NOLA but I think contracts for that job have already been attributed to Halliburton who's not going to employ them.

gazubal

A man-made disaster, not "natural"

04.09.2005 02:13

Bush backed out of Kyoto and denied the facts of climate change (more frequent, more violent storms.) He still does not understand.
Bush stole the flood-protection money for the attack on Iraq, he subsumed FEMA, the marshes were drained, (oil cos. responsible for most of this) the city sunk 2 feet in 60 years.

Nothing natural about it.

Ned Keagan
Homepage: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article310195.ece

bush's multiple counts of robbery and deception

04.09.2005 04:33

bush has been systematically robbing the american people since his first election, he has aproved of but refused to support many projects. cut funding to many that were in process of construction. he has watched as several disasters occured and sat on his hands ( maybe they were in the way of pulling his head out )have you noticed that his response time has lengthened? maybe it's mental. but to be honest both major political parties are responsible. but they had to find funding for his "wars". all that comes from the pockets of the lower 2/3 of the population. the same place as the cannon fodder that gets crippled or killed in those wars. but the vets won't find help either, they've cut funding for the veterans affairs. that agency hasn't been able to care for the other vets.

karl roenfanz ( rosey )
mail e-mail: k_rosey48@hotmail.com

High-Tech sonic weapons prototypes head to flood zone

04.09.2005 15:08

Apparently they accept that type of donations.

http://wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,68732,00.html

But Homeland Security don't want to let the Red Cross in to deliver food.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm

Thanks to CLG for the links :

http://www.legitgov.org/index.html#breaking_news

Looks like another Fallujah to me suddenly.

gazubal

Wrath of God?

05.09.2005 09:50

Leighton prompts this posting here:

The Religious might like to consider the Hurricane as the Wrath of God. A possible link: The Supreme Court Judge died of Cancer - call it punishment for perverting Democracy over the Chads. The poor have suffered greviously under Katrina, is that the punishment for not making Revolution over the Chads?

HE/SHE/IT might be getting mighty Wroth over the destruction of Creation. The Life hereafter is almost certain to be cancelled. Hell is being delivered on Earth.

Some reality

05.09.2005 11:17

I wondered when we would see the first of the posts claiming a link to climate change. In fact this part of the US has been hit by similar sized hurricanes for at least 5000 years. The last was in 1936 - check it out on the internet.

Simone

Fuck off troll

05.09.2005 12:07

Wondered how long it would take before trolls like 'Simone' turned up in attempt mantain the state of denial around the role of human activities on this so-called natural disasters.

"Global warming is not necessarily causing more hurricanes, but it may well be causing bigger and more powerful ones," says James J. McCarthy, a biological oceanographer at Harvard University and lead author of the climate change impacts portion of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's (IPCC) Third Assessment Report (2001). "Warmer seas fuel the large storms forming over the Atlantic and Pacific, and greater evaporation generates heavy downpours. With warmer, saltier tropical seas, the IPCC has projected larger storms, heavier rainfalls, and higher peak winds."

The following Web links provide some additional information about the connections between hurricanes and climate change:

* IPCC Summary for Policymakers: Working Group II

http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg2/029.htm
This link takes you to the section of the IPCC Summary for Policymakers from Working Group II: Impacts, Adaptation and Vulnerability that describes expected changes in the frequency and intensity of extreme climate events. From this page, you can explore other parts of the Third Assessment Report.

* USGCRP hurricane information

http://www.usgcrp.gov/usgcrp/links/hurricanes.htm
This page of the U.S. Global Change Research Program is a compendium of hurricane information, including the link between hurricanes and climate change. It also includes information from the IPCC's Working Group I Report, Technical Summary.

* A new study on hurricane intensity was published on Tuesday, September 28, 2004, in The Journal of Climate. Authored by Drs. T. Knutson and R. Tuleya, this article, along with other relevant information, can be accessed at Dr. Knutson's web page.

http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/~tk/

Coverage of this study in the New York Times (Andy Revkin, 9/30/04) included this assessment: "The new study of hurricanes and warming 'is by far and away the most comprehensive effort' to assess the question using powerful computer simulations, said Dr. Kerry A. Emanuel, a hurricane expert at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who has seen the paper but did not work on it. About the link between the warming of tropical oceans and storm intensity, he said, 'This clinches the issue.'"

simon

No swearing in this comment

05.09.2005 15:40

Simon, though there is (some) substantial evidence that may prove that global warming and climate change are linked this is still a theory and by no means definite. Though I myself believe that they are linked; I could well be proved wrong. Just because James J. McCarthy, a biological oceanographer at Harvard University (which is the most expensive university-therefore the best ) says that he believes something doesn’t make it true. Though this theory is backed up by others, there are many other meteorologists and scientists that believe otherwise.

Dont't force your views on everyone, Simon -Tolerance is free

Simone's fairy godmother

Southern Flood Blues

06.09.2005 14:14

Southern Flood Blues
by Big Bill Broonzy
recording of January 29 1937, Chicago

Early early one morning, water was comin' in my door
Early one morning, water was comin' in my door
It was the old high river, tellin' us to get ready and go

It was dark and it was rainin', you could hear that howlin' wind
It was dark and it was rainin', baby you could hear that howlin' wind
If I get away this time, I will never come here again

Hey my baby was cryin', I didn't have a thing to eat
Hey hey hey, I didn't have a thing to eat
Hey the water had come in, wash everything I had down the street

I was hollerin' for mercy, and it weren't no boats around
Hey I was hollerin' for mercy, and it weren't no boats around
Hey that looks like people, I've gotta stay right here and drown

Hey my house started shakin', started floatin' on down the stream
Hey my house started shakin', went on floatin' on down the stream
It was dark as midnight, people began to holler and scream

The blues is the soundtrack of reality.

Bloody pathetic

07.09.2005 12:29

I wonder why racists and climate change reactionaries read an obviously radical left news site like Indymedia? Perhaps it's because these people are SPOOKS who simply post to troll and frustrate legitimate debate - and in the case of this 'disaster' (part disaster, part genocide) - there's a great deal of legitimate debate that needs to take place.

Even the follow-ups seem to be a diversionary pseudo argument.

It's profoundly OBVIOUS that the vast majority of the looting was A) inevitable, since New Orleans is an impoverished, racially oppressed city where people are completely disillusioned and consumerism is nothing more than naked class power - and B) sensationalised by the media to distract from the federal government's CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE.

A lot of the violence is also probably agent provacateuring by the US military who are there _illegally_ under US law - rumours abound of special forces snipers dealing out 'vigilante justice' (which the media will tacitly blame on 'degenerate blacks' with a "genetic predilection" for this sort of thing). Meanwhile police participate in looting and sexual assault. Or maybe that's because the cops are black? Give me a fucking break.

FEMA have reportedly cut communications lines (google for the interview with the Parish Chief Broussard) and there's alledgely a US Navy vessel jamming radio communications. WTF is that all about?

30 - 40,000 people are dead or dying and meanwhile racist gibberish psyops bullshit is apparently more legitimate than the various credibly sourced conspiracy theories that abounded after 50 were killed on 7/7 - which were censured as being in poor taste by the IM admins. Why is that? Because the victims of 7/7 were White and British and killed by "The Enemy" - whereas the victims of Katrina are Black, Foreign and casualties of a "Natural Disaster" - Racism, Nationalism and the lack of Critical Thinking are the values implied in these editorial decisions!!

I'm very sad to say therefore, that IMC UK is quickly becoming the "Direct Action desk" of CNN :(

anon

unbelievable

07.09.2005 21:02

I'd just like to point out that Newsweek has a more critical perspective on the situation in New Orleans than certain indymedia posters. For those of you who've never seen it, it's a mainstream rag. Now that's pretty fucking pathetic.

'nother yank

No such thing as class?

08.09.2005 19:23

Oh well, I suppose I will be hanged for treason, but I hope there is still enough freedom left to say this. The time is not for America to unite, but divide! What has happened in New Orleans is that the clear systematic social, economic, political, geographical and every other division of the rich and poor in that country has been shown to the whole world. Black Americans and all other Americans except the 20% of the wealthiest, selfish ill-doers should rise up and overthrow the system that makes poor people pay a massive proportion of their money to excape a disaster caused by that 20% (first through their drives to expand industrial production of ridiculous commodities from throw-away cameras to police batons). In a country where 20% control 85% of the wealth, and that wealth ownership determines the conditions in which 80% live and die, that 80% better get wise - the effects of the disaster were not accidental, for they discriminated against the people who are impoverished by the system that benefits the 20%. It will happen again (thank to the man-made climate change that is denied by - because they don't suffer the effects - the wealthy), and it will not be the rich who suffer.

Lee

The Reasoning of the One Eyed men

09.09.2005 12:21

Gentlemen and or ladies, please allow me to summarise:

. 'I am beginning to believe that black people, no matter where in the world they are, are cursed with a genetic predisposition to steal, murder, and create mayhem.'
( - Your a black man...Yeh Right!!)

.'If you had been in blistering in extreme heat, forgotten by your country, surrounded by the corpses of your peers, without food and clean fluids, do you honestly think you'd be acting rationally ( - Yes of course-you would feel the urgent need to steal televisions and sun tan lotion-Its not your fault your a thief -its the Bush administration!)

'but to be honest both major political parties are responsible. but they had to find funding for his "wars".' (- Damn clever plan!-- Bring down a hurricane to provide funding for war, I assume the $50 Billion needed to recover this state will be used as a slush fund...Brilliant!!)

'The Supreme Court Judge died of Cancer - call it punishment for perverting Democracy over the Chads. The poor have suffered greviously under Katrina, is that the punishment for not making Revolution over the Chads? ' ( I feel no comment is neccesary here-scary!)

'I wonder why racists and climate change reactionaries read an obviously radical left news site like Indymedia? Perhaps it's because these people are SPOOKS who simply post to troll and frustrate legitimate debate ' ( Absolutely Right! How dare people come on here giving views that differ from yours, what do they think this is a democracy? Obviously we should only post views that are in keeping what YOU think is right...just like Stalinist Russia or Nazi Berlin- keep the balance out of this forum its not fair!!!)

'Black Americans and all other Americans except the 20% of the wealthiest, selfish ill-doers should rise up and overthrow the system that makes poor people pay a massive proportion of their money to excape a disaster caused by that 20% '
( Damned wealty 20%!! , they probably got together in a room somewhere and picked the most effective area to have a hurricane...Western Seaboard of America -- where hurricanes have been occuring for eternity..Brilliant!..No one will ever suspect!!!)

Gentlemen and/or ladies...

Allow me to say through my tears of laughter.....When George Bush sees the intellectual giants, conspiracies theorists and out right morons that are ranged against him.....He must be shitting himself....Thanks for the laughs......Better than 'The Far Side' - maybe you should call this forum 'The Far Left Side'...HAW HAW!!!

Plain Joe Schmoe

Reasonable argument

09.09.2005 15:48

I don't think "Plain Joe Schmoe" is a troll, so will engaging him.

First off, the first posting was clearly a racist troll, so let's ignore that.

Second, I don't think many people who frequent indymedia have a problem with Geroge Bush (besides his religiousness) any more than any other manager of capitalism. Perhaps I should speak for myself - individuals do not matter, systems do. People do not steal because of George Bush (or any particular party), but because of an economic, political and cultural system in which material goods are fetishised and idolised, but the means to get them are limited. That's why people didn't go a lootin' in Sri Lanka et al. Not only this, but if I had nothing and was in an impoverished area and all the rich folk went away, I'd probably steal... not to watch television but to sell them. That is indeed the way capitalism works. Remember almost all of the land in the US was stolen in the first place, so think of what happened as an American Tradition.

I think you misunderstood about 20%. The point is that the wealthy (and I don't mean 2 car families) can always escape any catastrophic situation more easily than others - they just need to move away from areas that are prone to such catastrophies - whether violence, poverty or environmental.

The point about "cause" was not that they caused the hurricane, but that they profit from - and systemically cannot stop - the human activities that accelerate climate change. This is not just so in relation to car manufacturing or oil production, but also in relation to the smaller economic motives, such as relocating production - and consumption - to cheaper out-of-town sites, thus increasing co2 emissions.

Beyond climate change, the scale of the disaster was something to do with more personalised issues - the choice to illegally invade a country (that had been illegally attacked for the previous 10 years after having beeen immorally supplied illegal wmds by the invading nations, and that had nothing whatsoever to do with the stated reasons for the invasion (links with Bin Laden [ha!], wmds etc) too the national guard away, reductions in social security and non-war government expenditure prevented evacuation of the poor, and contracting out flood defenses to inadequate companies all contributed to the disaster (not the natural phenomenon).

As for the claims of "spooks" etc, well yes they do exist, but probably not here. Right-wing trolls and flamers also exist, and should not really be engaged due to their unwillingness to hear people out - or speak, eh Mr O'Reilly? However, I'd be delighted to continue this engagement with you - at least you seem reasonable.

Lee

again

09.09.2005 19:20

--

'I wonder why racists and climate change reactionaries read an obviously radical left news site like Indymedia? Perhaps it's because these people are SPOOKS who simply post to troll and frustrate legitimate debate '

( Absolutely Right! How dare people come on here giving views that differ from yours, what do they think this is a democracy? Obviously we should only post views that are in keeping what YOU think is right...just like Stalinist Russia or Nazi Berlin- keep the balance out of this forum its not fair!!!)

--

Please take your obnoxious obfuscation and mindless straw-man arguments elsewhere. They are deeply dull. IM already has a limited censorship/moderation policy. The point I was making was that these powers are being misapplied.

I am only interested in registering the fact that there are still people who believe in principle that they should able to use the comment facility to have a real discussion, not a flame war with the laughable morons of the far right blog-sphere, much of which is masterminded by people like Matt Drudge, Pat Buchanan and their ilk. Who knows who fulfills these roles in this country. Obviously someone does.

anon

Evidence

09.09.2005 20:47

Here's some evidence from waynemadsonreport.com, that the aftermath Katrina's being exploited for purposes of ethnic cleansing. It may make the objective or the effect of the racism, lies, misinformation and obfuscation in the media and on the Internet a bit clearer - to support the agenda of the rich junta who want to re-enslave America's underclass.

--

September 9, 2005 -- Dallas meeting plans reconstruction of New Orleans without poor African Americans. According to well-informed New Orleans sources, New Orleans' wealthiest families, including those who are direct descendants of the French who settled New Orleans (not the Acadians [Cajuns] who were poor refugees from British tyranny in Nova Scotia) are meeting in Dallas today with Bush administration officials, New Orleans city officials, wealthy Texas oilmen, and bankers to plan for the reconstruction of New Orleans. These wealthy New Orleans residents live in the gated community of Audobon Place, a section of the city near the Garden District replete with personal helipads that still has running water and sewage and was only slightly affected by hurricane Katrina. It is now reportedly being patrolled by private Israeli security forces.

bakerR.jpg (1883 bytes)

Rep. Richard Baker (R-LA): "We finally cleaned up public housing in New Orleans. We couldn't do it, but God did."

The Dallas meeting focused on rebuilding and rezoning New Orleans without the "criminal element," a code word for the city's poor African American community. These New Orleans residents have been scattered across the United States and are now under the control of FEMA. There is an understanding by the wealthy New Orleans elite that the poor will never be able to return. In fact, after the properties in New Orleans poorer communities are razed many of the deed records of the poor and middle class contained in government offices of Orleans Parish and neighboring Jefferson Parish may end up being casualties of the flood. As one New Orleans source put it, "people will not have proof they ever owned anything." As for renters and residents of public housing, they will be prevented from returning to their native city, according to New Orleans sources. Louisiana's Republican House member Richard Baker, a strong Bush ally, may have tipped his hand about the future plans for New Orleans when he told a group of lobbyists, "We finally cleaned up public housing in New Orleans. We couldn't do it, but God did."

JR.jpg (2555 bytes)

Guess Who Is Planning the Rebuilding of New Orleans?

The French-American elite of New Orleans are among the city's "rich and famous." They run the Mardi Gras "crews" or clubs that sponsor the annual pre-Lenten festival. Many also run large oil companies and are long time supporters of the Bush family and their associated oil and gas cartels.

anon

Lee....A reply...

11.09.2005 16:49

Thank you Lee, primarily for your reasoned and balanced counter-arguements, and more importantly, from a personal perspective ,a counter arguement that doesnt resort to 'yah boo sucks' when some ones views differ from your own (Yes anon, its you Im referring to. One day- maybe with maturity- you will realise that 'out- bawling/insulting' someone with views counter to yours is the epitome of intolerance, or is IM a tolerance free zone in a bid to mirror the 'populist press' it purports to despise?)

As to your arguements Lee. Yes it is hard to even attempt to justify both Blair and Bush's logic or stance in relation to Iraq, it was a poorly planned operation with no forward thinking as what happens when the war was won ( and the peace has to be fought for). BUT my main bone of contention with people who so vehemently object to this invasion is this: Where we to stand and watch a complete culture( the Kurds) being systematically wiped from the Earth? Do we sit and watch a once honourable nation bleed to death from repression and torture?

Its so easy to yell 'foul' when we see the mess US and UK have made of Iraq. The arguement about leaving a country to sort out its own rights has been mooted. In retrospect were we right to let Hitler carry on in Germany?

I just get a lil tired of the 'EVERYTHING is WRONG with EVERYBODY' brigade that seems to take an opposing view to EVERYgovernment initiative ( ever heard of the boy who cried wolf??) not for any balanced reason but just because it was the Government who initiated it. And as for the conspiracy theories that appear here, dont get me started.

I believe everyone has an God given right to question, protest and probe its Government, but once in a while ( as in your case Lee) can we put forward REASONABLE debate, instead of 'spittle in the mouth' fanatism. (Yes , you again,anon)??

Plain Joe Schmoe

Clarification Please Anon

11.09.2005 17:10

Sorry if I am still appearing 'obfuscate' ( had to look it up!...and what is 'straw man'??) anon, but I wonder if you could clarify your wish as to how this forum should be used. Let me see;it should not be used by Trolls ( I dont know what that is?) and right wing flamers ( Nope dont know what that is either). As I understand it you want it to be used ONLY by like minded individuals to discuss the issues of the day and how 'THE MAN' is trying to screw you??

You dont think this is a lil reminiscent of the 'Peoples Popular Front Party' from the 'Life of Brian'? Where everyone who disagreed or held contrary opinions were 'splitters' I am sorry to appear to find your obviously passionate views laughable. Such blind eyed intolerance and secularism is, I feel, the epitome of everything that should be despised in a fair and free society and here you are holding it up like some banner of pride. What next ? Hang them all from lamposts?

Your a typical example of someone who doesnt have either the intelligence to counter argue without resort to insult or the tolerance to accept that we dont all have to agree. I despise such mealy mouth bigotry.

Plain Joe Schmoe

Straw man

11.09.2005 17:54

"and what is 'straw man'??" asked Plain Joe Shmoe.

Well - say somebody said:

'I wonder why racists and climate change reactionaries read an obviously radical left news site like Indymedia? Perhaps it's because these people are SPOOKS who simply post to troll and frustrate legitimate debate '

and then somebody else came along and said this:

( Absolutely Right! How dare people come on here giving views that differ from yours, what do they think this is a democracy? Obviously we should only post views that are in keeping what YOU think is right...just like Stalinist Russia or Nazi Berlin- keep the balance out of this forum its not fair!!!)

That would be a straw-man.
______________________________________________

Rhetorical use

The straw-man rhetorical technique is the practice of refuting weaker arguments than one's opponents actually offer. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to your opponent.

One can set up a straw man in several different ways:
Present only a portion of the opponent's arguments (often a weak one), refute it, and pretend that all of their arguments have been refuted.
Present the opponent's argument in weakened form, refute it, and pretend that the original has been refuted.
Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.
Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute their arguments, and pretend that every argument for that position has been refuted.
Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticised, and pretend that the person represents a group that the speaker is critical of.

Some logic textbooks define the straw-man fallacy only as a misrepresented argument. It is now common, however, to use the term to refer to all of these tactics. The straw-man technique is also used as a form of media manipulation.

http://www.answers.com/straw+man&r=67
__________________________________________________________

see also

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

scared crow

Thank You Scared Crow

11.09.2005 18:12

Thank you Scared Crow for you highly detailed decription of what a straw man arguement is. I never knew I was that clever. Here I was merely commenting on how ironic it was that, in what is supposedly a forum for free debate and views, turns out to be actually more restrictive, intolerant and insular than many of the journalistc 'rags' it was meant to combat.

Funny old world this this free speech malarky. Maybe its only 'free' when the majority agree with what your saying and the minority should find there own outlets to raise their voices.

Hang on, wait a minute wasnt that what this site was supposed to be??...Confused.

Joe

Plain

"Clever"

11.09.2005 18:28

" I never knew I was that clever"

Erm, you're not - if you were you would deal with Anon was saying, rather than what you imagine s/he is saying.

" Here I was merely commenting on how ironic it was that, in what is supposedly a forum for free debate and views, turns out to be actually more restrictive, intolerant and insular than many of the journalistc 'rags' it was meant to combat."

Erm, where did you get this guff about a "free speech forum"? Its another of your straw men ...

Racist comments are hidden - and theres a whole list of other stuff that breaches the editorial guidelines as well - so there isn't even a pretence of a "free speech" forum - "free speech" is simply liberal bollocks - they pretend they stand for it, until people start going down for thinking the wrong thoughts and expressing them .... and then the liberals shut the fuck up -

Indymedia is essentially a tool of the global justice movement - and left to their own devices activists (your supposedly like mindedposters) would find many things to discuss and disagree upon. However - when radically opposing views are imposed on the comments section then you get polarisation and very little discussion of the points that activists don't agree on.

You're very good at making lots of noise without saying anything Joe.

Scared Crow

Schmoe

11.09.2005 22:51

>> You dont think this is a lil reminiscent of the 'Peoples Popular Front Party' from the 'Life of Brian'? Where everyone who disagreed or held contrary opinions were 'splitters' I am sorry to appear to find your obviously passionate views laughable.

"Sorry to appear?"

So what's behind your apparent cynicism?

anon

Not too clever by half

12.09.2005 09:47

scared cow/anon

Oh dear! I seem to have trod on some very sensitive toes, let me give an honest reply and attempt to put this 'debate' (!) back on track.

Scared Cow, Im sorry, call it straw man arguement if you wish, but how on earth can I comment on anything other than what I IMAGINE anon is saying? Its the only option I have, if this is what I imagine I perceive he is saying how can I construe it another way??

>free speech" is simply liberal bollocks - they pretend they stand for it, until people start going down for thinking and left to their own devices activists (your supposedly like mindedposters) would find many things to discuss and disagree upon 'A lot of the violence is also probably agent provacateuring by the US military'' Fuck off troll-Wondered how long it would take before trolls like 'Simone' turned up in attempt mantain the state of denial around the role of human activities on this so-called natural disasters''Indymedia is essentially a tool of the global justice movement'<

What utterly pretentious bollocks! Last time I looked a tool was defined as a device to carry out a particular function, what function does a a forum that only prefers inputs from 'one of their own' serve?

Still noise or am I saying enough yet?

As to anon comments: there is a German phrase called 'Schadenfreud' ; it translates as 'shameful joy' . When I see inputs that blame an entirely man made disaster and the suffering and misery caused is used merely as a platform to forward their own ends, frankly it disgusts me.

Yes, the US administration was criminaly negligent in its reaction to this event, Yes it would have been a different 'disaster' if it happened in California. But to use this as a platform for mooting a 'pogrom against blacks' conspiracy is an insult and discredit to the people who are suffering.

Grow up, sometimes shit just happens, Why not tilt your spear at windmills that can be justified instead of EVERY thing that happens MUST be laid at the door of the Government!!

Plain Joe

Pain Joe Shmoe

12.09.2005 12:45

" how on earth can I comment on anything other than what I IMAGINE anon is saying?"

By reading what s/he says is my suggestion:

'I wonder why racists and climate change reactionaries read an obviously radical left news site like Indymedia? Perhaps it's because these people are SPOOKS who simply post to troll and frustrate legitimate debate '

None of that speaks of Stalinist Russia or Nazi Berlin - you've just embellished it and then shot down your own embellishment - all based on your imagined pretext that this is a "free speech" forum.

"what function does a a forum that only prefers inputs from 'one of their own' serve?"

Hmmm, well its hard to find any forums that don't meet that description, is it not?

Thats why the Indymedia UK Mission Statement says|:

Inherent in the mainstream corporate media is a strong bias towards Capitalism's power structures, and it is an important tool in propagating these structures around the globe. While the mainstream media conceal their manifold biases and alignments, we clearly state our position. Indymedia UK does not attempt to take an objective and impartial standpoint: Indymedia UK clearly states its subjectivity.

Just because you can't see a point in people who share an objective using a forum to further that objective, doesn't mean it can't happen.

"Still noise or am I saying enough yet?"

I can't hear anything but noise.

"Grow up, sometimes shit just happens,"

I'll address this when my teacher lets me use the computer again. Right now he's given me permission to do a number two.

Scared Crow

Bad to worse in New Orleans

12.09.2005 21:53

Dear Friends, and to many of you, Dear Comrades, A major American city has been destroyed. New Orleans is a wreck. Half a MILLION people have been affected, but none of this was unexpected. I am a proud former member of the New Orleans Libertarian Alliance, which I helped set up with several comrades in the early 1970's. A Long Time Ago. 'Way back then, we did what we could for the cause, which sadly wasn't much, I have to honestly report, But while we worked we gained Wisdom! I will now pass this on to you. There have been reports and comments on this website about the "authorities" dynamiting the levees on the Industrial Canal during Katrina and after the reports, retorts by incredulous but honest, perhaps less informed, people doubting these reports. For an Iron Fact, when Hurricane Betsy grazed New Orleans, a year or so before I got to the "Big Easy," the "authorities" did dynamite the locks on the Industrial Canal, to relieve the pressure of the storm surge on the Lake Ponchartrain Levees. The result was the flooding of the Lower Ninth Ward, where, as you might suspect, the People lived. Why would the "authorities" do this? Ah! To relieve pressure on the levees along Lake Ponchratrain and THUS save the pricey homes of the rich, which, many of them, are along the lakefront. ALL New Orleanians of my generation know this. We All Know This. It is an Iron fact and not in any way under debate. That is what happened when Betsy came to town. Well, Comrades, I do not normally say much in these Internet debates, but this topic is a thing that I do know a thing or so about and I thought that you might like to hear what I have had to say.

Love & Kisses and especially Solidarity to you all, Red Frank

Frank S. Kennett
mail e-mail: kennettf@uwstout.edu
Homepage: http://not got

re

13.09.2005 01:25

>> what function does a a forum that only prefers inputs from 'one of their own' serve?

The anti-capitalist / global justice movement is generally diverse and non-heirarchical. Debate is a useful means by which a group can reach collective decisions.

Why knowingly provoke people with reactionary majoritarian lampooning or smug middle class liberal comments and then call them totalitarians, or make Gary Bushell-esque jibes against the "activist ghetto", especially after events like this? Could it all be an attempt discredit the site and deprive us of the freedom of the media that the majority enjoys?

>> As to anon comments: there is a German phrase called 'Schadenfreud' ; it translates as 'shameful joy' . When I see inputs that blame an entirely man made disaster and the suffering and misery caused is used merely as a platform to forward their own ends, frankly it disgusts me.

Ends? Joy? My politics have no selfish "ends" and I have reacted with anger not "joy".

As for purely intellectual self-gratification, you're the only one (habitually) showing smugness.

>> Yes, the US administration was criminaly negligent in its reaction to this event, Yes it would have been a different 'disaster' if it happened in California. But to use this as a platform for mooting a 'pogrom against blacks' conspiracy is an insult and discredit to the people who are suffering.

Then why are so many of them effectively likening the situations to a pogrom themselves?

>> Grow up, sometimes shit just happens, Why not tilt your spear at windmills that can be justified instead of EVERY thing that happens MUST be laid at the door of the Government!!

Does that apply to the bundestag minister who said Bush should be "shot down"?

anon

Mods -

22.09.2005 18:34

Is someone going to delete this crap yet or leave it looking like the letters page of the "Voice of Freedom"?

*.*

What are you doing??

10.10.2005 16:41

I've never seen such a pathetic string of "comments" before in my life. I love the idea of libertarian/non-hierarchical media & discussion spaces; but they're not likely to work for long if the people using them are egocentric, irritating, inconsiderate, irresponsible runts.

I've a "comment" to add:

There are many, many people throughout the world trying to use this site to acquire an alternative perspective, a fuller perspective, on the political/social/economic situation they are within. If you're going to post a comment, think before you do it, because if you post shite, you waste everybodys precious time. The environmental situation is awful; and your pathetic "additions" are only going to distract people from taking up alternatives to the current norm.

Just grow up. (I apologise if that's offensive to the children of this world)

Ben