This article also appears (as it was meant to look!) at  http://scotland.indymedia.org/newswire/display/2008/index.php

Sorry, I'm new to this!

The links that should have appeared above are as follows:

Defend the right to peaceful protest!:  http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/754099600

SSP begins legal action over ban:  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/4682967.stm

Socialists fight parliament ban:  http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2005/635/635p12c.htm

Scottish Socialist Voice:  http://www.scottishsocialistvoice.net/

Peace,
SarahJane

...because our SSP friends aren't quite being as full with the facts as readers might like.

You see, what they fail to mention is that (to quote the Scotsman) the party of protest is clearly spending too much time partying, too much time protesting and too little time being parliamentarians. On the day in question, they managed to completely kybosh a backbench rebellion that would have seen the executive defeated and much greater compensation for Hapatitis C/blood transfusion sufferers.

But hey, why get these poor victims the compensation they deserve when you can make eejits of yourself and get banned from Parliament, eh? What's representing the electorate when you can get a bit of PR?

I support the SSP not because of their policies, but because of their independence of spirit. People need to ask questions of the government, and sometime the mainstream parties are too reluctant to be really nasty. Tommy Sheridan was fantastic. The rest of the squad are clowns.

..and since I always complain about the lack of links:

 http://news.scotsman.com/archive.cfm?id=722982005

 http://news.scotsman.com/archive.cfm?id=721892005

 http://news.scotsman.com/archive.cfm?id=746752005

Before anyone picks on me for it, I pick the Scotmsn only because it's got the better on-line archive. Herald hasn't got the obvious right wing slant, but is harder to access.

If this had been a PR exercise, it would have been an utter failure. It's not exactly the way to cosy up to the media, least of all 'The Scotsman'.

Besides, even if you disagree with the protest itself, surely you're not in favour of elected members being banned for a whole month? Look at the severity of what they did - and look at the delaying and avoidance tactics that MSPs use as a matter of routine, but go completely unpunished. Is that what you mean by 'parliamentarian', Pete?

If you actually read the online petition, you will see that many folk have signed it *despite* their views of the SSP. This isn't a recruiting campaign; it's a matter of fairness.

...you seem strangely silent on the damage the protest did to the Hep compensation claim?

its no good the SSP throwing what they think is an innocent snowball then going "oops" as the ensuing avalanche wipes out two whole villages.

The fact is that they let down themselves, and in particular the poor devils that failed to get the cash.

Paranoid Pete - with friends like you who needs enemies?

The point is after making thier protest to allow the G8 March near Gleneagles (I cant think of a better issue to protest about at that time - (they only held up a cardboard sign in the Scottish parliament) they have had all their funding stopped for a month. This will mean that all their staff (I think its over 30 workers) cannot be paid. Surely anyone who in any way thinks of themselves as radical or progressive should support them getting their funding and being able to pay their staff. Shame on you Paranoid Pete!

Neil

As mentioned in a post ( https://www3.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/08/320926.html) about three or four days ago, compare and contrast the SSP's request for solidarity and their lack of solidarity with a similar protest at the Scottish Parliament:

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/scotland/2003/02/53556.html

Perhaps their reasoning is that its OK for the "representatives of the people" to protest, but not "the people" themselves.

Doesn't necessarily invalidate supporting them on this matter, but interesting nonetheless...

1) Actually the SSP were in contact with the organisers of the Hep C campaign weeks ago and are involved in an ongoing dialogue with them at present.
2) Why isn't Paranoid Pete getting on to those people in the paliament who WERE present at the time of the vote and voted against it?
3) Anyone getting their opinions from a Thatcherite Tory goon like Andrew Neil at the Scotsman is never going to be short of bullsh*t for their garden.
4) If you don't stand up to Blair's racist right-wing junta bollocks now then you can kiss websites like Indymedia goodbye in future

"Actually the SSP were in contact with the organisers of the Hep C campaign weeks ago and are involved in an ongoing dialogue with them at present"

Yes, but that doesn't really help us around the fact that it was the SSP who put the kybosh on the backbench rebellion, does it? Does the SSP have some master plan which will get the Hep victims/families the money by other means? Something which can muster all the backbenchers again? Or is it just shutting the door after the horse bolted?


"Anyone getting their opinions from a Thatcherite Tory goon like Andrew Neil at the Scotsman is never going to be short of bullsh*t for their garden"

Yes, well, I did comment upon its right-wing tendencies and explain its choice merely because of an accessible archive, but clearly that escaped your knee-jerk response. I notice, however, that despite your concerns about the Scotsman's accuracy (bias?) you don't seem to have come back with a cogent response.

Sheesh.

But the MSPs didnt choose to skip the vote on Hep C - they were undemocratically excluded.

If you look at what is going on in the country right now - police systematically covering their numbers at the G8 and preventing people from getting to peaceful protests, a shoot-to-kill policy which has already resulted in one innocent death, the introduction of internment on the British mainland, summary deportations of people at risk of torture, secret trials and dawn raids, armed police holding guns to the heads of grandmothers, teenagers and tubedrivers going about their business innocently, you can see this in the wider context.

This is a serious attack on democracy. Excluding furthermore fining elected reps because they tried to uphold the democratic decisions is beyond anything ever heard of before. This is the thin end of the wedge, and it *must* be challenged in a court. Yeah the SSP is skint - which is why we are appealling for all the help that we can - both financial and in-kind to challenge this at the highest level.

"Some of us white and black know how great a price has already been paid to bring into existence a new consciousness, a new people, an unprescedented nation. If we know, and do nothing, were are worse than the murderers hired in our name. If we know, then we must fight for your life as though it were our own and render impassible with our bodies the corridor to the gas chamber. For, if they take you in the morning, they will be coming for us that night"
James Baldwin

What our new labour/libdem/snp friend doesn't mention is the fact that if the establishment politicians had not voted to undemocratically exclude SSP parliamentarians then the blood transfusion compensation vote would not have been lost. They were excluded without the right to defend themselves or to be represented at the committee that took the decision. The SSP member of that committee, Carolyn Leckie, was not permitted to attend it. In other words there was a complete lack of natural justice.

The SSP have been outstanding in their use of parliament to get across the truth about poverty and war and to propose legislation such as free school meals and scrapping prescription charges amongst many more. They have submitted more feedback to legislative consultations than any other party in the parliament, and all on the average skilled workers wage. The corrupt neo-liberal labour/libdem/snp gang (with just a handful of exceptions) are too busy raking in as much cash as they can from the public purse, eg by buying Edinburgh flats with public money and then selling them on for a big profit.

The SSP contribute impressively to parliament, but recognise that real change comes from the grassroots. Which is why we were struggling to get a demo at Gleneagles in the first place. It is a shame that others in the movement, notably the Scottish Greens, have allowed themselves to be co-opted by the establishment.

Using the lost Hep C Vote as a criticism of the SSPs actions is a smokescreen initiated by the SNP to cover their support of such a draconian action by the parliament. They, and the Greens, refused to oppose the ban and so are complicit in this lost vote.

In fact if both of these parties had been true to their traditions they would have been shoulder to shoulder with the SSP MSPs defending democracy. Both the SNP and other Green representatives around the world have disrupted parliaments at various times. Yet here they place the rules of parliament, and the chance to get one over on their opponents, before their principles.

I'm personally disappointed with the Green MSPs, who like to promote themselves as the radical opposition, yet when it comes down to it would prefer to tow the establishment line. Bunch a fearties.

The punishment of the SSP is outrageous and over the top. Shame on those who voted for it, but especially on the Green Party. A more pathetic bunch of self-righteous opportunists I have yet to see.
Our own Green MSP, Eleanor Scott, has provided us with the most ineffectual and at times actually harmful representation.

What are members of the Green Party going to do about it?? Nothing. The Greens appear to have a good voter base but no active members worth a toss.
Bunch of Shits.

"the establishment politicians had not voted to undemocratically exclude SSP parliamentarians then the blood transfusion compensation vote would not have been lost"

Matt, Redkola, and Ms MacAlpine seem to be at odds here. One claims it was undemocratic, another complains that the SNP and Greens refused to support them - so they were presumably booted out on a vote. In fact the SNP were very critical of the SSP action, which suspended procedings for an hour or so. So what do we mean by undemocratic? Surely its the majority of MSPs who voted? And they did. And you lost.

The action was infantile and childish. I can only presume that SSP members had not given any thought to the risk - if that is the term - that the Parliament would act decisively. For heaven's sake this is our Parliament, not the Junior Lit or Strathclyde Regional Council.

Hmm. Readers should take a look at

 http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.co.uk/content/default.asp?page=s1_1_1&newsid=8195

and judge for themselves. Its something more worthy of a Council chamber than our Parliament's debating chamber.

In March the Scottish Parliament passed a motion which called for them to facilitate peaceful protest at Gleneagles. By the last day of the parliamentary session before the summit, the protest was not allowed to go ahead. Every official avenue had been pursued - Jack McConnell refused to even meet with Francis Curran to discuss it. They ignored their own policy because it was not politically convenient.

Given no other means of ensuring that the protest would be facilitated, four SSP MSPs decided to take action in the parliament to ensure that the motions which were passed were upheld. They acted in defence of democracy - if parliament can pass policy and then summarily ignore it if they choose - that is no democracy at all.

Parliament was suspended for an hour, until the MSPs were taken by police off the premises - the police took them out through a back way as they were concerned that other MSPs might attack them.

In the meantime, a meeting of the Parliamentary Standards Committee was convened. Carolyn Leckie, who is a member of that committee was not allowed to attend, nor was any representative of the SSP. A clerk (paid official of the parliament) was called to represent them, however when committee didnt like what he was saying they threw him out. Margret Curran is alleged to have demanded that they be suspended for a year, which was eventually changed to a month, with loss of salary and allowances for the period and all use of parliamentary equipment, including phones and email services. If you email the banned MSPs during September, your message will be deleted.

They immediately took that back to the parliament in the form of a motion (remember those - they;re the ones that they dont think that its necessary to uphold) which was passed.

1. I think that their actions were highly commendable. What is the point of our wee pretendy parliament if it doesnt bother to follow its own policies.

2. If you got suspended for a month from your job without a tribunal, or any form of representation would you think that was appropriate?

3. The people of Glasgow, Lothians, Central and South of Scotland have lost their MSPs representation for the month of September. They cant be contacted officially, they are not allowed to attend surgeries, nor will anyone pass messages.

4. What kind of precident does this set - maybe next time it will be a year, maybe the length of the term? So do you just shut up when democracy is ridden over roughshod, knowing that if you protest they are liable just to ban you (democratically of course).

5. There is no precident for this in either the Scottish Parliament nor in the UK. One Lib Dem MSP has swindled approx £40K from Holyrood, another is under investigation for arson - neither have had such draconian sanctions applied. In the UK parliament, Alex Salmond (SNP) repeatedly disrupted Westminister over the poll-tax imposition, the heaviest sanction that he ever had was a 5 day ban (no loss of earnings, of allowances or of communication)

6. The Hep-C bill ammendment was defeated thats true and regrettable, but there are 126 members of the parliament - surely the blame for this is with the exec who removed the provision from the bill at committee stage, those who opposed the ammendment, and those who couldnt be bothered to turn up rather than with those who would have supported it, but couldnt because they had been undemocratically excluded.

7. None of these MSPs are rich. They give back half their salary to the party and live off an average workers wage of £24K, and get no working family tax credit which would normally be due to them as their official earnings are over the threshold, despite all of them having children and three of them being single parents. Deprivation of a months salary will push all of them into hardship.

8. In taking away not only their salary, but also their allowances they punished the SSP parliamentary workers as they are now not able to pay them. Due to the way that the allowances are structured these workers are direct employees of the MSPs, who rely on thier allowances to pay them. Many MSPs might have little pots of money under their beds that they can use to pay their staff in hard time, but I can assure you that ours dont. Ordinary workers will not be paid because the parliament decided to withold the money that pays their wages

Democracy is far bigger than a vote, its about upholding the interests of the people who you proport to represent. Democracy is under serious attack in the UK and here in Scotland, if this financial sanction - which in total will cost the party approx £30K takes us under (and it might) they will have bumped off the only party which was brave enough to take a stand.

I never voted at all until Iraq (didn't want to add "legitimacy to a corrupt system).. well discounting the time I voted against my old history teacher who was running in my constituency heehee!

In that last Scottish elections, I was still in Scotland (Wiltshire now) and I voted SSP for my 3rd vote.

I voted for them because they talked a lot of sense and more good policies than any other bugger. I voted LibDem otherwise= lesser of three evils.

If I were in the same position now, I'd think twice. SSP were voted in by people who wanted representation, not cheap gimmicks. I rarely have thoughts warmer than "Fuck off hen!" when listening to Stugeon. But for once I agree, they have shown total contempt to their voters and to the Hep C people. At best they can claim naive *incompetence* in not choosing a better day to get booted out.

I know a lot of people who threw their PR vote at SSP, and none of them were expecting Student Union antics. I mean, aw that pish aboot ye cannae caw a Ned, Ned! For a start:

Non-[sic]deucated Delinquent ISN'T the etymology of the word, it's an old Lowland Scots word for lout. But even if it was, they *are* uneducated and they *are* delinquents.

SSP were voted in to address the social iniquity that produces neds, not quibble with pseudo linguistics. The more important thing is, most people in Scotland are sick to fucking death of Neds.. so nane ae yur "Och thur hard done by poor wee souls!" shite. Naw, thur antisocial wee criminal thugs terrorising their neighbourhoods and attacking the Fire Brigade.

Get back to the good policies you were voted in on and leave yer situationist theatre for the bedroom please. Otherwise, expect people to view you as comedians, and the Tories have better gags when it comes to that.

The Hep C vote is a red herring invented by SNP who have since 2003 have never backed any SSP policies even those they had backed earlier you should be asking why the people who voted against compensation did so. As for your tirade on neds etc why did you vote SSP you sound like you'd be more at home voting Tory or has living in Wiltshire done this.
This was a demonstration in a "democratic" parliament about the right to protest which the parliament backed and which Jack McConnell refused that day to endorse. The events following this now show this was the first in a serious of events to demonise the anti G8 protesters and attack our civil liberties. Even if I agreed to the punishments for the MSPs, which I don't, what about the workers who have been deprived of wages for a month yet none of them took part, I hope Magoo you never find yourself in this situation. What precedent does this set for protest in parliament or anywhere else for that matter. I've just remembered where your psedonym come from - a cartoon character who was short-sighted and never saw where he was going and caused havoc!

Is our friend Mr. Cannon the same one who was one of the SSP Local Authority Election Candidates for the Lothians during the 2003 election, thus having something of a party line on this one? Comrade?

"The Hep-C bill ammendment was defeated thats true and regrettable"

Regrettable? Its a damned tragedy for those - who the SSP were elected to represent and defend - yet it appears way, way, way down your list at no. 6.

"four SSP MSPs decided to take action in the parliament to ensure that the motions which were passed were upheld".

How's that work then - 4 folk waving bits of card and causing a hulubaloo going to somehow "forece" the Executive to do something? What a daft comment.

"If you got suspended for a month from your job without a tribunal, or any form of representation would you think that was appropriate? "

If I walked into the Partners' office, waved banners about in front of them and disrupted an important meeting, then I'd be amazed to escape with anything other than instant dismissal for gross misconduct, to be frank. And I suspect that the employment tribunal would back them up.

"There is no precident for this in either the Scottish Parliament nor in the UK. One Lib Dem MSP has swindled approx £40K from Holyrood, another is under investigation for arson"

Stop changing the subject. Our fraudulent friend is already out the Parliament, so they can't suspend him and anyway its pending criminal charges, and likewise Mike Watson's alleged arson is (a) unproven pending court action and (b) happened outside Holyrood. In fact, it sounds more like you expected a rap on the knuckles when you planned the little PR stunt and were caught on the hop.

And what about the workers who have been deprived of wages for a month yet none of them took part? Well I agree that those responsible for them losing their wages should pay - the clowns in the SSP who got themselves suspended for purile, infantile action more suited to a local council chamber than our national parliament.

Yes I am. Yet I can still tell the truth. Also I have nothing to hide so I use my real name unlike a lot of the contributors to this argument. So big bad Boab do you have a party line? If so which one? and how about using your real name

...but I don't see how knowing I'm Bob MacFadzean from Bathgate is going to help you. Done nothing famous, name doesn't crop up on Google, not a member of any political party.

Depriving Voters of their representation should have been challenged in the Courts. The ploys in the House are irrelevant. The work of sorting out constituents' problems should not have been stopped. It seems that Labour people are so strongly influenced by the Fascists now controlling new Labour that they have lost all their sense of reponsiblity and duty.

If they are so good at splitting their opponents as these exchanges there and here seems to show, perhaps they are the only competent people, and the dream of Socialism should be abandoned, and control handed over to the new Fascist Labour Party. -and people should support the South African pass laws they now want to introduce.

Or you could include Politicians in Lucy Parson's wish about the Rich. The options are getting limited.

Look lets face it the SSP are a joke they are just a bunch of ex benefit scoungers who know a good thing when they see it sponging off the tax payers and kidding on to everyone they dont take all their MSP wage AYE RIGHT!!. The imperial leader Tommy swans around in his gucci suits and permatan and the the others like Wee Rosey patron saint of the neds and Carol "wheres ma moisturiser" Leckie are steadily running up a great wee criminal record. Colin Fox is as much use as a choclate torch as the convener with his mullet and earing (give it up Colin your getting too old for the earing)and the rest are there are any more i have left out its because they are so un memorable. The bottom line is that the whole parliment is undemocratic because our so called MSP's are acting to type ie they are just a bunch of councillors some failed with more money to waste. Since they have been elected more jobs in Scotland than ever whilst they all swan around trying to act like big shots. The SSP only provide the comic relief, keep up the good work.